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Speaker 1: Round about the cauldron. Go in the poisoned entrails. Throw

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Speaker 1: toad that under cold stone days and nights has thirty

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Speaker 1: worn sweltered venom sleeping got boiled out first in the

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Speaker 1: charm it pot double double toil and trouble, fire burn

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Speaker 1: and cauldron bubble. Filliat of a finny snake in the

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Speaker 1: cauldron boil and bake, I of newt and toe of frog,

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Speaker 1: wool of bat and tongue of dog, adder's fork and

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Speaker 1: blindworm's sting, lizard's leg and Howlett's wing for a charm

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Speaker 1: of powerful trouble like a hell broth Boil and bubble,

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Speaker 1: double double toil and trouble, fire burn and cauldron bubble.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to to Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is

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Speaker 1: Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And Rob why did

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Speaker 1: you ask me to read from Macbeth in a witchy voice?

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Speaker 1: What what is that going to lead into? Well, of

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Speaker 1: course we're gonna be talking about cauldrons and and certainly

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Speaker 1: in Western traditions, I feel like one of the first

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Speaker 1: places that one's mind goes is um is to go

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Speaker 1: to act for a scene one of William Shakespeare's Macbeth. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is the scene that we we just read from

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Speaker 1: round about the cauldron go. Uh. It's uh, and it

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Speaker 1: does bring together a number of the ideas of the

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Speaker 1: cauldron that will be discussed in these episodes. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: of course it's just just a factuless scene in general,

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Speaker 1: with which is doing their their their witchy best to

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Speaker 1: make some sort of horrific potion. Now, obviously you have

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Speaker 1: had cauldron's on the rain. What sent you down this path?

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Speaker 1: How did we end up here? You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: remember exactly. It was something that came up in previous

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Speaker 1: research for another episode. I started noticing the cauldron and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, well, there's a lot here we

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Speaker 1: should consider coming back to it. And indeed there there

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Speaker 1: is quite a lot, because on one hand you have

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Speaker 1: just the history of mundane but fascinating cooking technology, and

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Speaker 1: then you have the different sacred and supernatural directions. This

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Speaker 1: goes in as in as well. Uh. Certainly there's the

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Speaker 1: the Asian tradition, which we'll probably get to first, but

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Speaker 1: then there's this rich Western tradition going back to uh

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Speaker 1: Celtic traditions and so forth. And some of these are

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Speaker 1: perhaps more connected with the Cauldron of Macbeth, and we'll

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Speaker 1: probably discuss that in a subsequent episode. But but it

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Speaker 1: is you need to ask ourselves, like, what do we

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Speaker 1: think of when we think of cauldron? Um. I know

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Speaker 1: I instantly think, of course, of this scene from Macbeth,

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Speaker 1: but I also instantly think back to a trio of

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Speaker 1: early eighties film. As I think of beast Master, I

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Speaker 1: think of Conan the Barbarian, and I also think it

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Speaker 1: was both from nineteen two, but I also think of

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Speaker 1: nineteen Clash of the Titans. All three of these have

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Speaker 1: some sort of a cannibal stew going on some and

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Speaker 1: some sort of a big broth that it is revealed,

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Speaker 1: has human parts within it. Now, in the Clash of

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Speaker 1: the Titans, there's an interesting connection because the cauldron is

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Speaker 1: being tended by three Crones, the Green Sisters, who are

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Speaker 1: part of the story of of Perseus and Medusa, and

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Speaker 1: it's hard not to notice the similarities with the three

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Speaker 1: which Sisters in Macbeth. There, Yeah, it's my understanding there

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Speaker 1: is a connection here. These are essentially the ancient predecessors

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Speaker 1: of Macbeth's which is um. Now, as for the cannibal stoos. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a case where I'm just guessing Humber

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Speaker 1: based on the timeline. I think they invoked it and

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Speaker 1: Clashes of the Titans, and then either overtly or not,

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Speaker 1: the makers of Beast Master and Conan and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we need to get in on that. That's that's a

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Speaker 1: great get get get a cannibal stew in here. But

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Speaker 1: if that's the case, why didn't Conan have a pet

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Speaker 1: mechanical owl. I know, I know, it's a it's it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a flaw. It's often pointed out as a

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Speaker 1: flaw of that film. Conan needs a robot. I think

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Speaker 1: another film that people might think of would be the

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Speaker 1: Disney film The Black Cauldron, based on the work of

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Speaker 1: Lloyd Alexander. And this of course drew from Welsh mythology,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get into some of that in subsequent episodes.

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Speaker 1: But I asked my ten year old son what he

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Speaker 1: thought about when I mentioned the word cauldron. H he

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Speaker 1: has not seen Well, he's seen Um Clash of the

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Speaker 1: Titans and loves it, but he hasn't seen the other

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Speaker 1: two films. When I asked him, he said, well, I

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Speaker 1: think of soup, and I think of Harry Potter, the

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Speaker 1: Ladder of which of course is also linked to Western

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Speaker 1: traditions of of witches and so forth. And I think

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Speaker 1: the Potter books and films are probably a key modern

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Speaker 1: pop culture reference regarding cauldron's You know, I started thinking

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Speaker 1: about something with this word, but then started doubting myself.

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Speaker 1: I'll see what you what you think about this, So

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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's already in a ablished term

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Speaker 1: for this type of phenomenon, But I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: how cauldron is something you might call like a charged

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Speaker 1: variant of a concept, a word that has extremely mundane

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Speaker 1: literal synonyms, like literally literally, a cauldron is just a

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Speaker 1: large pot or a big pot, I think, perhaps one

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Speaker 1: that is especially used over an open flame, more so

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Speaker 1: than in like an indoor cook top setting. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: yet the word suggests a world of associations that it's

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Speaker 1: literal synonyms do not. Like in English, large pot does

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Speaker 1: not have any special magic swirling about it, but cauldron does.

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Speaker 1: Anytime you say the word cauldron, it suggests, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is trollish sorcery, something is going on. But then again,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not that remarkable because I guess you can

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Speaker 1: think of other things associated with magic, like I think

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Speaker 1: the word wand literally just means like a rod or

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Speaker 1: a stick, but in modern English it is pretty much

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Speaker 1: always associated with magic. Yea. It is interesting to think

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Speaker 1: about this because with the with the cauldron, you could

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Speaker 1: sort of go cauldron, pot, croc pot, instant pot, and

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Speaker 1: and the closer you get the instant. Like the the

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Speaker 1: instant pot, it does not have really any nefarious or

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Speaker 1: magical connotations. It's thoroughly modern um, nothing to fear. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like the further back through the terminology you go, yes,

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Speaker 1: the stranger things get um because even pot is more

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Speaker 1: intimidating than croc pot. Well, I wonder if there's generally

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Speaker 1: a thing in languages where there's like an archaic synonym

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Speaker 1: for a word that loses its mundane associations, like one

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Speaker 1: one synonym maintains the mundanity through the ages and the

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Speaker 1: other one only retains usage in magically charged scenarios. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think that's the case. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if we're gonna end up keeping the third which is

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Speaker 1: bit from the the opening here, but there is a

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Speaker 1: line in that where the um where the wid rhymes

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Speaker 1: children with cauldron children being uh, this old term for

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Speaker 1: like in trails. But I didn't do a deep dive

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Speaker 1: into this terminology, but it's my understanding like that was

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Speaker 1: that was already an archaic term, uh when Shakespeare used

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Speaker 1: it or or you know, or and or a more

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Speaker 1: specified term. But you do what you have to do

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Speaker 1: when you need a rhyme something with cauldron. Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: else fits in their squadron? Not really? I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can make it work, but why are which is going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about squadrons? How about? How about how

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Speaker 1: about Godson cauldron? That's kind of a maybe maybe I

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Speaker 1: think you gotta put some spin on the pronunciation though

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Speaker 1: that's like an eminem style style. Yeah, you gotta be

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Speaker 1: a pro to make that work. So all in all,

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Speaker 1: there is a rich tradition of cauldron's overflowing with powers

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Speaker 1: of death, creation, domination, torment, and divination. But before we

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Speaker 1: get into all of this properly, we have to back up.

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Speaker 1: We have to really talk about the mundane world of

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Speaker 1: cauldrons as well, And so we're gonna have to talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the origins of soup technology, which I've been

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Speaker 1: super excited about all weekend and um, I think my

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Speaker 1: family is sick of hearing about it. You've been talking

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Speaker 1: about souper lot. Did you make soup? No, it's too

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Speaker 1: hot for soup, that's the thing. Oh yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: we could have made a spato, I guess, but but no,

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Speaker 1: I haven't been having any soup. But just reading about

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Speaker 1: the traditions of soup, it's made me respected all the more.

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Speaker 1: I need a cold snap so I can get back

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Speaker 1: into it. So, first and foremost, as we've been discussing,

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Speaker 1: a cauldron is simply a large pot used to boil

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Speaker 1: liquid over a fire. So in function, it's it's really

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Speaker 1: no different from any pot you have in your kitchen.

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Speaker 1: It's just generally considered a bigger pot. Now, long before

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Speaker 1: the advent of metal pots, we had bowls. We had

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Speaker 1: pots of pottery as well as presumably ones made of

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Speaker 1: wood and leather, though such artifacts don't always stand the

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Speaker 1: test of time. Near as well. But one one question

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Speaker 1: that's interesting to get into is, Okay, well we're talking

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Speaker 1: about cauldron's, were inevitably talked thinking about about soups in

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Speaker 1: many cases, But do you need a pot or you

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Speaker 1: need a metal potter? Do you need a pot at

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Speaker 1: all in order to make soup. I would have thought so. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there was a time where I would have thought so

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Speaker 1: as well, But it turns out it's not necessary because

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Speaker 1: a hole in the ground is nature's cauldron, um, and

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Speaker 1: this is something that can be made watertight via the

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Speaker 1: use of animal hides, and then one may fill this

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Speaker 1: hole with water and of course food materials. You're various

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Speaker 1: ingredients which will of course eventually come together in a

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Speaker 1: hot soup. But where's the heat going to come from?

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Speaker 1: Good question, Yeah, because you can't put a fire under

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Speaker 1: it if it's a hole in the ground, and to

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Speaker 1: hide I mean, I guess there might be specialized situations

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Speaker 1: where you could depend on geothermal heat, but in this example,

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Speaker 1: geothermal heat is not available, so you're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: create something with fire. The answer is you have an

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Speaker 1: adjacent fire, get it nice and hot, and then you

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Speaker 1: have hot stones heated up in that fire, and then

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Speaker 1: those hot stones are transferred from the fire to the soup,

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Speaker 1: and that is how you heat the soup in the

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Speaker 1: whole nice Okay, the hot stone goes in, then you've

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Speaker 1: got a stew going. Yeah. Now, other perishable above ground

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Speaker 1: bowls and pots apparently We're also used in different cultures

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Speaker 1: with this technique UM, which is generally referred to as

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Speaker 1: stone boiling UM. And in in these cases you would

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Speaker 1: often have like a wet bark or hide scenario to

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Speaker 1: create the vessel. But stone boiling has been traced to

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Speaker 1: pre pottery culinary traditions of Native American tribes, Paleolithic Chinese groups,

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Speaker 1: and even neander Dolls. And on a quick note about

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Speaker 1: about the Chinese culture, Um, I know when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the cooking with stones and cooking soup with stones,

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Speaker 1: you destually think about the story of stone soup, which

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Speaker 1: I believe in most tellings has no relation to to

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Speaker 1: to to stone boiling. However, Chinese American author Yan Cheng

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Speaker 1: Compostine acted the classic story but with with the twist uh,

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Speaker 1: first of all Chinese twist, setting it in um in

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Speaker 1: ancient China, but also incorporating a stone boiling motif in

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Speaker 1: this book called the Real Story of Stone Soup. Well, Rob,

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Speaker 1: I know, I know you said everybody knows the story,

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Speaker 1: but maybe some people don't. What's a quick version of

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Speaker 1: the stone soup? Well, the classic stone soup, say tail

201
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Speaker 1: is that you know you have some some individual generally

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Speaker 1: there's sort of a you know, a rogueish type character. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's actually a great adaptation of this with some additional

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Speaker 1: elements in Jim Hinson's The Storyteller series. But here's this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this man and he's he's cooking up some some water

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Speaker 1: and he asked somebody passing by, excuse me, I'm making

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Speaker 1: some some soup. Could you help me. I just need

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Speaker 1: a nice stone And they're, you know, like, what, what

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Speaker 1: do you need a stone for it? And then like,

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Speaker 1: I'm making stone soup? And so they agree. They bring

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Speaker 1: this individual a stone and in many cases, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the would be chef here sniffs it, maybe licks

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Speaker 1: the stone, and it's like, okay, this is a good one.

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Speaker 1: Plunks it in and so now now people are beginning

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Speaker 1: to get interested. Other passers buyers stop and they're like,

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Speaker 1: what's he doing? He's cooking stone soup. Uh. They asked him, well,

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Speaker 1: how does it taste when he samples it? And he's like, well,

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Speaker 1: it needs a little salt, So he doesn't have salt,

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Speaker 1: but somebody is is now they're now invested in this process,

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Speaker 1: and so someone brings some salt, but then he chased

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Speaker 1: it again. Knowing these little peppers, So someone brings some

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Speaker 1: pepper before along. Of course, it needs some celery and

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Speaker 1: needs some potatoes, It needs all these other ingredients, and

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Speaker 1: at the end of the process, uh, there is this

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Speaker 1: great big bowl of soup, and I think in most

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Speaker 1: tellings it is then communally enjoyed. Oh well, that's a

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Speaker 1: great story and sort of an idea about how you

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Speaker 1: can you can like hype bootstrap nothing into something. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a wonderful tail um. But

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Speaker 1: but yeah, in this this adaptation, it takes the stone

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Speaker 1: boiling technique and factors it in, which is which I

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Speaker 1: found was pretty clever. Now you might wonder what kind

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Speaker 1: of evidence is there for stone soup um. So according

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Speaker 1: to a few different sources I was looking at, basically

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Speaker 1: it comes down to pits that are that are found

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Speaker 1: in the archaeological record that have stones in them. Stones

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Speaker 1: that are cracked from heat, often referred to as thermally

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Speaker 1: cracked rocks. Uh. So this is this indicates that these

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Speaker 1: rocks were heated to a high temperature and then added

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Speaker 1: to this broth or added to water to help make

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Speaker 1: this broth. And we also tend to see this and

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Speaker 1: pit cooking kind of loop together into a combined earth

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Speaker 1: oven cooking tradition. Oh yeah, okay, so this wouldn't even

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Speaker 1: necessarily always be something like soup. Like I know that

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Speaker 1: there's some methods for like roasting meat, I think Mesoamerican

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Speaker 1: culinary traditions where you'd like wrap some meat in um

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Speaker 1: in leaves like wet leaves or something, and then cook

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Speaker 1: it in a pit in the ground with hot coals. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think it does certainly speak to human innovation,

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Speaker 1: Like if the if the hole in the ground is

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Speaker 1: your level of cooking technology, it doesn't mean you're not

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Speaker 1: coming up with with new and ingenious ways to tinker

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Speaker 1: with that four am at, such as as you know,

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Speaker 1: eventually developing a wet cooking technology. And I guess we

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Speaker 1: can come back to this in a minute, but I

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Speaker 1: think there are real advantages to so called wet cooking

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Speaker 1: technologies that they like, they have some miserable benefits that

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Speaker 1: some other types of cooking do not, Right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: so it obviously wet cooking sticks with us, and wet

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Speaker 1: cooking survives the use of of of of stone boiling.

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Speaker 1: Now stone boiling, it does eventually lose out to other techniques,

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Speaker 1: especially container based cooking with pottery, etcetera. Because ultimately stone

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Speaker 1: boiling requires more maintenance and it isn't nearly as passive

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Speaker 1: a technique. So you know, if you're adding those hot

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Speaker 1: stones and you have to keep adding new hot stones

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Speaker 1: taking out the old stones, Um, you can't just well,

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Speaker 1: let's put the let's put the soup on, and then

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Speaker 1: go do these other things required to present the meal.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, nutrition and taste aside. That's another great thing

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Speaker 1: about wet cooking. So if you just like put some

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Speaker 1: food items in a pot with water and then let

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Speaker 1: it boil, you can just or it for a long

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Speaker 1: time and it's not gonna burn or anything because there's

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Speaker 1: enough water content in there that that that's gonna be fine. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So one of another source I was looking at, there's

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Speaker 1: a paper titled stone boiling, firecrack Rock and nut Oil

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Speaker 1: published in the Wisconsin Archaeologists in two thousand nine by

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Speaker 1: James Skibow and uh Skibo points out that the whole

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Speaker 1: process of adding and removing hot stones during the production

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Speaker 1: of nut oil would have resulted in the loss of

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Speaker 1: that precious nut oil that was being produced. So that's

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Speaker 1: another thing to think about It's like, not only is it,

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Speaker 1: you know, not a very passive technique, but if you're

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Speaker 1: having to keep you know, reaching in there with some

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Speaker 1: sort of implement and removing rocks, adding new rocks, you're

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Speaker 1: going to lose some of of what you're actually brewing up.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, I can see that it was like

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Speaker 1: sticking to the rocks and stuff. Yeah. Uh. And and

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Speaker 1: then I should also point out though there there is

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Speaker 1: apparently evidence of stone boiling surviving into the advent of pottery,

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Speaker 1: with the stones added to water inside of vessels, um

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Speaker 1: so um. And then I also I believe examples of

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Speaker 1: of stone boiling that is also taking place in some

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Speaker 1: sort of above ground scenario, some sort of like say

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Speaker 1: a wet high bag or a wet bark container. So there,

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Speaker 1: it didn't have to happen in the ground. But I

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Speaker 1: think the most certainly to modern or modern understanding of

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Speaker 1: of culinary technologies, I think the hole in the ground

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Speaker 1: stone boiling scenario is perhaps the most amazing and the

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Speaker 1: most removed from what we seem to be doing. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we might not know exactly when the first human

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Speaker 1: boiled something, but we do have a pretty clear picture

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Speaker 1: that wet cooking or boiling, simmering, whatever you wanna call it,

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Speaker 1: cooking something in water is a technique that comes along

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Speaker 1: later in the history of cooking, because, like fire, goes

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Speaker 1: back a long time before, and pretty clearly humans were

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Speaker 1: maybe say, roasting things over an open flame before they

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Speaker 1: had wet cooking techniques. So where do these wet cooking

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Speaker 1: techniques come from? Do we think? Well? I found a

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Speaker 1: source discussing this. This is from John D. Speth in

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Speaker 1: When Did Humans Learn to Boil? Two thousand fifteen, paleo

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Speaker 1: Anthropology Society. I'm and read a quote from this paper. Quote.

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Speaker 1: Pits that would have been suitable for stone boiling are

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Speaker 1: equally scarce until the Upper Paleolithic, although the evidence for

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Speaker 1: subsurface features of this sort may have been obscured or

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Speaker 1: erased by post taphonomic processes. Not surprisingly, therefore, because of

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Speaker 1: the late appearance of heated stones and potential boiling pits,

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Speaker 1: archaeologists almost without exception, have come to the logical conclusion

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Speaker 1: that wet cooking is a late addition to human culinary practices,

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Speaker 1: another of a long list of technological achievements which we

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Speaker 1: owe to the enhanced cognitive powers of fully modern humans. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so cooking maybe older, but we think wet cooking is

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Speaker 1: probably something that comes about in the Upper Paleolithic, which

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Speaker 1: I think is generally like between something like fifty thousand,

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Speaker 1: like twelve off thousand years ago than now. Interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: I think we've pointed this out before, but it's still

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Speaker 1: It's one of those facts that I think can can

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Speaker 1: can can be very stimulating, is that pottery predates agriculture,

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Speaker 1: and according to Brian Fagan and Bill Sillar, very little

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Speaker 1: of the oldest pottery remains are actually charted by fire,

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Speaker 1: suggesting that these were more prestigious items for displaying food

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Speaker 1: than for something you would actually use to cook food.

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Speaker 1: So while foragers made use of pottery, we also have

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Speaker 1: to remember that this was also the pottery is is

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Speaker 1: fragile and it's perhaps not ideal for people who are

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Speaker 1: traveling around. Uh So, uh this is this is quite

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Speaker 1: interesting that that Fagan and Stiler bring up here, is

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Speaker 1: that the usefulness of pottery, paired with its fragility, might

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Speaker 1: have been a contributing factor for some group that had

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Speaker 1: pottery to settle down, Like to to make full use

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Speaker 1: of the pottery, you might have to stop moving around

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Speaker 1: at least a bit and have more of a base

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Speaker 1: of operations where your pottery has less chance of becoming

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Speaker 1: fragmented and shattered and can be used to store things

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Speaker 1: as well as present things and so forth. Now some

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Speaker 1: of our earliest pottery fragments. It depends where you are

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Speaker 1: in the timeline of discoveries. Uh So, when Fagan and

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Speaker 1: Silo we're writing this is from the seventy grade Inventions

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Speaker 1: of the ancient World, they were pointing to fourteen thousand

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Speaker 1: b c. In Japan as being the the eliest oldest

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Speaker 1: known pottery discovery. However, after the publication of that book,

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Speaker 1: a two thousand twelve paper um revealed that chin Rin

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Speaker 1: Cave in eastern China was found to contain charred pottery

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Speaker 1: fragments dating back twenty thousand years. Yeah, I was looking

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Speaker 1: around at these questions about what is the earliest evidence

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Speaker 1: of pottery or pots in general, And the earliest pots

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Speaker 1: would be pottery. They would be ceramics of some kind

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Speaker 1: fired out of clay or other earthen materials, not metal metal.

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Speaker 1: Metal cooking vessels would come much later. So the earliest

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Speaker 1: pottery vessels used for cooking. I was looking what's the

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Speaker 1: evidence for that? And I came across a paper from

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Speaker 1: published in Nature by Oliver Craig at All called Earliest

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Speaker 1: Evidence for the use of Pottery and uh. I also

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Speaker 1: was looking at a write up of this in Science

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Speaker 1: by Sid Perkins called first Evidence of Pottery used for

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Speaker 1: Cooking um And at the time this was considered some

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Speaker 1: of the earliest direct evidence for pottery used explicitly for cooking.

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Speaker 1: And my immediate question was, well, what were they cooking

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Speaker 1: in it? Do we have any idea? Actually? Yes, this

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Speaker 1: paper looks directly into that question what they were cooking

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Speaker 1: and helps give us a picture of the way of

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Speaker 1: life of the people who use this pottery. So the

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Speaker 1: authors of this paper argue that the evidence indicates pottery

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Speaker 1: technology emerged in East Asia between twelve thousand and twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand years before the present, and it was an innovation

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Speaker 1: among hunter gatherers. Rob you mentioned that a minute ago,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's worth sitting with that for a minute.

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Speaker 1: It's a strange thing. You might You might assume pottery

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Speaker 1: only arises among people who have adopted farming and an agricultural,

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Speaker 1: settled way of life that allows them to have fixed homes,

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Speaker 1: and uh, and you know forges and so forth, that

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Speaker 1: this kind of industry of of creating earthenware vessels would

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Speaker 1: arise from that setting. But no, it does appear to

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Speaker 1: arise before people settled down and started farming. But this

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Speaker 1: raises the question why was pottery invented? We were getting

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Speaker 1: an idea of when and where it was invented, but why,

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Speaker 1: what was driving it? What was the role it played

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Speaker 1: in people's lives? Well, the authors of this paper argue

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Speaker 1: that for the hunter gatherers who first started making these pots,

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Speaker 1: and this is looking at um late Pleistocene pottery from Japan,

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Speaker 1: a total of a hundred and one charred deposits from

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Speaker 1: thirteen different sites all over the Japanese islands, and these

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Speaker 1: would be pots associated with the Joeman culture that j. O. M. O. N.

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Speaker 1: Craig and co authors here argue that what would have

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Speaker 1: caused people to to uptake pottery in this context is

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Speaker 1: if the pottery provided people with new ways to process

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Speaker 1: and consume foods. This would be the driving technological advantage.

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Speaker 1: But we don't know exactly how these earliest pots were used.

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Speaker 1: So this study did a chemical analysis on the residue

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Speaker 1: left on the these charred deposits on pottery from all

401
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 1: over prehistoric Japan. And one thing worth noting is that

402
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Speaker 1: many of these sites that the pottery shards were recovered

403
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Speaker 1: from were near inland rivers or or lakes, and so

404
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Speaker 1: they were not necessarily by the coast. The author's right.

405
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Speaker 1: We demonstrate eight that lipids can be recovered reliably from

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Speaker 1: charred surface deposits adhering to pottery dating from about fifteen

407
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Speaker 1: thousand to eleven thousand, eight hundred calibrated years before present,

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Speaker 1: and that that's again the incipient Joeman period, continuing the

409
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,959
Speaker 1: oldest pottery so far investigated, and that in most cases

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Speaker 1: these organic compounds are unequivocally derived from processing freshwater and

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Speaker 1: marine organisms. So at the time of this paper, it

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Speaker 1: seemed like the some of the earliest pots ever used

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Speaker 1: for cooking, we're being used for cooking seafood. Uh though

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Speaker 1: I guess actually I don't know. Is it still seafood

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Speaker 1: if it's freshwater fish. I'm not sure that's a quandary.

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Speaker 1: As well, More than three quarters of the charred deposits

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Speaker 1: indicated quote high trophic level aquatic food. High trophic level

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Speaker 1: means high up the food chain, so primary producers like

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Speaker 1: plants are at the bottom, and then you'd have herbivores

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Speaker 1: above them, and then you have carnivores above them, and

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Speaker 1: then you'd have the top carnivores about above them. And

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Speaker 1: I assume high trophic level aquatic food means they were

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Speaker 1: not only eating seafood, they were eating aquatic carnivores. The

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Speaker 1: paper draws attention to the possibility that a lot of

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Speaker 1: this was salmon, that these pots have fatty acids left

426
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: by prehistoric cooking of salmon which travel upstream for spawning,

427
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: which could explain these uh, these highly nutritious seafoods uh

428
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: near these inland lakes and rivers, not necessarily by the shore.

429
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: That's fascinating because you have the first place my mind

430
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: went was, okay, perhaps boiling some sort of crustaceans and

431
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: so forth, because sometimes that's that's the best way to

432
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: to get at these organisms and turn them into something

433
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: you can you can you can eat. Uh. But but salmon.

434
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 1: Now it makes sense as well, especially if you're imagining

435
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: a scenario where it's like the spawning situation and you

436
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: have sort of a sudden uh glut of Santa at

437
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: your disposal. What are you gonna do with them. Yeah,

438
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: and these people were apparently massively successful at exploiting the

439
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: food resources available at the water's edge. I've read multiple

440
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: sources alluding to the idea that apparently just prehistoric Japan

441
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: was a great place to be a hunter gatherer. There

442
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: were just a lot of available food resources in the

443
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: natural environment. Then you could you could create a lot

444
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: of calories for your society without having to farm. But

445
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: I also wanted to discuss a few notes on what

446
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: this type of pottery was. So again, this would have

447
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: been the incipient Joeman culture uh Joe Mont. The Joeman

448
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: people actually get their archaeological reference name from the from

449
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: a descriptor of their pottery. Joeman means something something having

450
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: to do with the idea of ropes, and so the

451
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: pottery they made is noted for having decorations where while

452
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: the clay was still wet, impressions were made in the

453
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: clay with the ropes. So if you look up joem

454
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: On pottery, you'll see all these kind of strange looking

455
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: fiber textures on the outside of it. So I guess

456
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: they would press ropes into it and then they would

457
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: fire it to set the textures in the clay. But

458
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: there are some other very notable characteristics of these these

459
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: early pots. First of all, they tend to be very small,

460
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: and second they have round bottoms. Robb I attached a

461
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: picture of one of these round bottom pots for you

462
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: to look at, and uh, it sort of goes against

463
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: what you would assume about nearly any pot you would

464
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: come across today. What's the bottom of a pot gotta

465
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: be like it needs to be flat so it can

466
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: sit on a table around the floor. Right, Yeah, these

467
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: are not flat. You could not sit these on a table.

468
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: They would roll over, can't stand up by itself on

469
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: the flat surface. That's kind of odd and it makes

470
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: you think about We'll wait a minute, then, how were

471
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: they using these pots later? Joeman pottery shows increases in size,

472
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: so bigger pots and tend to innovate a flat bottom.

473
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: So it seems like the later pots would have been

474
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: able to stand on the table or on the ground.

475
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 1: These earlier pots no, And this has been interpreted as

476
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: an evolution of the context in which the pottery was

477
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: primarily used. So perhaps the earliest use of these pots

478
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: was exclusively for cooking by hunter gatherers, and the round

479
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: bottom could be the kind of thing that you would

480
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: settle into the coals of a fire save a fire

481
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: burning the round bottom you just kind of push it

482
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: down into all the stuff that's burning, and it'll sit

483
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: up by itself that way. And I wonder, and this

484
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: is a question I don't know the answer to, dangerous

485
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: question to ask um. I wonder if the small size

486
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: of the bowls has to do with the fact that

487
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: the smaller the vessel, the quicker the cook time for

488
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: the contents, and therefore you're maybe risking the cracking of

489
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: the bowl by the heat a little less, because that

490
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: ends up being I think, one of the factors, and

491
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: eventually moving onto metal based cooking technologies, as you don't

492
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: have to really worry about them cracking the way you

493
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 1: would have to worry about high temperature cracks and pottery.

494
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: That's an interesting idea. I don't know. I didn't read

495
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: anything about that, but that seems possible to me. One

496
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: thing I did read is simply that the smaller size

497
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: of these earliest cooking pots has to do with the

498
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: nomadic lifestyle of the people who probably use them. If

499
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: you're like moving around a lot and you need to

500
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 1: take a pot from one place to another. Obviously it's

501
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: better for that pot to be smaller. It's less likely

502
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: it's going to be easier to move, less likely to break.

503
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: And it seems again like the pot's got larger and

504
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: had flatter bottoms once people started switching more to an

505
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: agricultural lifestyle. Yeah, I mean otherwise, like, how many flat

506
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: surfaces are you really dealing with? Certainly and certainly not

507
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: within the context of the campfire. I don't know if

508
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: that's the right answer, because the other thing is like,

509
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: you could also have a flat bottomed pot that could

510
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: sit in the campfire. So there's no reason and I

511
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: can think of why to use them in a fire.

512
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: The bottom would have to be round like that. I

513
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: don't know if there's a reason anybody is aware of

514
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: that they would have to be round like this. I

515
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: just think it's funny that these earliest pots wouldn't stand

516
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: up by themselves unless maybe they were used with some

517
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: kind of stand Maybe they you know, people built things

518
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: that didn't survive as much, like a holder of some kind. Yeah,

519
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: or or also it could have to do I'm guessing here,

520
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: what with making it more durable impacable for people on

521
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: the move. You know, thinking roughly about against like if

522
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: you're going to if you're going to, uh, you know,

523
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: create the walls of a castle to withstand battering rams

524
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: and so forth. You don't want you don't you don't

525
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: want a sharp right angle. You want to have a smooth,

526
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: rounded corner. Uh. So, So I don't know, I don't

527
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: know if that has anything to do with the design

528
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: of these pots. Were not. Oh yeah, the bottom does

529
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: kind of look like an egg eggs or eggs are

530
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: good DESI line, right, yeah, yeah, thank oh, But I

531
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: guess we should talk for a minute again about like

532
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: what what is the benefit of a pot for cooking?

533
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: Pot is not the only way to cook you can.

534
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: So let's say you catch this salmon in the river

535
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: and oh boy, you know delicious, you know, nice fatty meat.

536
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: It's great. You could put it on a big old

537
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: stick and just roasted over the an open flame. What

538
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: kind of advantage does cooking it in a pot with

539
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: water bring? Well? One one important factor that has brought

540
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: up in the literature is that boiling allows for faster

541
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: and more thorough cooking of ingredients. Uh. And it also

542
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: creates a tasty broth. Uh. Later on, this is also

543
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: going to be important with with starches. Starches are going

544
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: to thicken up everything, so boiling is vital to subsequent

545
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: traditions of rice, ultimately noodles and so much more. Right,

546
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: But boiling also I would say helps keep maximum new

547
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: trition available to eat because it all stays in the

548
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: pot when you're boiling, or I mean, I guess some

549
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: gets out, there's some splatter and lost their steam and

550
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: all that, but it's minimal. When you're cooking over an

551
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: open fire, you just think about a lot of nutrition

552
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: is probably dripping right off of your food, and that's

553
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: precious food energy that's just sizzling in the fire down below.

554
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: In a soup, everything stays in the pot. It all

555
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: becomes part of a nutritious broth and you can have

556
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: every last drop. This reminds me of We did an

557
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: episode of the show where we talked about what gravy. Gravy, Yeah,

558
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: like gravy is essentially the legacy of of meat drippings

559
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: and so forth, the precious drippings. Oh yeah, we were

560
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: I don't remember the name of the people, but they were.

561
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: They were a group that lived in the region that

562
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: is today Finland, and these people had some religious traditions

563
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: of like of like rituals involving cooking bear meat and

564
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: the gravy made from the bear Yeah. Yeah. And then

565
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: of course we get into this a little bit in

566
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: the event an episode on Ketchup where you're also dealing

567
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: with kind of a dripping based condiment, that is that

568
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: isn't used as a way to transform other dishes. I

569
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: believe also with with boiling your there's an advantage in

570
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: just how you're heating, say a chunk of fish, right,

571
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: like the way that the heat is applied to the flesh. Well, yeah,

572
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: I guess that's true. I mean, you certainly can boil

573
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: foods until they're very overdone, like to a to a

574
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: person with sensitive taste, but it's harder to like burn

575
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: foods if you're boiling them in water. They will just

576
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: continue to leach. I mean, the the like meat that

577
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: gets boiled may become very tough and lose a lot

578
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: of flavor, but the flavor is getting lost again into

579
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: the broth, which you can drink. Now, there were there

580
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: were certainly you do you do see mentioned in the

581
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: literature of quote unquote ceramic cauldrons, which were simply larger

582
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: ceramic pots that could be used over an open fire.

583
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 1: But of course there are material limits. Even with modern ceramics. Uh,

584
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: it can warp and crack in ways that metal does not.

585
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: But of course we didn't just go straight from pottery

586
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: to cast iron cauldrons. There's this whole metallurgical evolution involving copper, bronze, brass, gold,

587
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: and silver. I think we've discussed the broad dates on

588
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: these innovations before, but in the old world it tends

589
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: to go like copper eighth millennium BC, copper smelting by six,

590
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: bronze by the third and brass by the final centuries

591
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: b C. Wrought iron by the third millennium BC, cast

592
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: iron in the ninth century BC. He treated steel in

593
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: crucible steel during the first millennium BC. I gotta say

594
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: that's a great luxury of the modern era. I appreciate

595
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: being able to cook in in steel vessels or metal

596
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: vessels generally, and not having to try to cook in

597
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: earthenware pots. Now this is sort of tangential to the subject,

598
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: but when I think about soup, I necessarily think about seasoning,

599
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, casting all your little spells of flavor on

600
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: the on the cauldron as it bubbles, And so I

601
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: did want to mention briefly that I came across the

602
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: paper about early evidence for the use of spices in cooking, cooking,

603
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: wet cooking, soup cooking in clay pottery. There was a

604
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: paper published called Phytoliths in Pottery Reveal the Use of

605
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: Spice in European prehistoric culture. This was by Hailey saul

606
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: at All published in Plus one in August, and this

607
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: study actually did analysis of what are called phytoliths that

608
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: literally means plant rocks or plant stones, which are these tiny, uh,

609
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: mineral structures that you can find inside plants, which are

610
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: made out generally out of silica that is like taken

611
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: up from the soils and minerals get taken up from

612
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: the roots into the plant's tissues and creates these little

613
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: mineral deposits. And these mineral deposits can of course survive

614
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: for a long time and can tell you things about

615
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: ancient plants. So in this paper they looked at finaliths

616
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: that were left behind in what they call carbonized food

617
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: deposits on prehistoric pottery. I think these would be kind

618
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: of like the charred patches that we were looking at

619
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 1: in that other paper. They say these are from quote

620
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: the Western Baltic dating from six thousand, one hundred calibrated

621
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: years before present to five thousand, seven hundred and fifty

622
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: before present. Now, these clay cooking pots were found at

623
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: uh the Neolithic sites in I believe modern day Denmark

624
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: in Germany. And so they analyze the finaliths in these

625
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: pots to determine what these prehistoric people were seasoning their

626
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: food with, and they found out that it was a

627
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: modern garlic mustard seed. I didn't know those terms could

628
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: be combined that way, but modern garlic mustard seed or

629
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: alliaria petio latta, they write, quote as this seed has

630
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: a strong flavor, little nutritional value, and the finalists are

631
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: found in pots along with terrestrial and marine animal residues.

632
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: These findings are the first direct evidence for the spice

633
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: of food in European prehistoric cuisine. Wow, that's that's incredible.

634
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 1: They also say that this suggests a much greater antiquity

635
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: for the spicing of foods than you can tell from

636
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: any other previous physical records. So that's pretty impressive to me,

637
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: because again, these are people, uh probably from before the

638
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: age of agriculture, or if they are practicing agriculture. It's

639
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: early sort of proto agriculture. So you have either hunter

640
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: gatherers or early farmers already putting putting spices into their

641
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: food because they just gotta have more flavor. Yeah, I mean,

642
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense, right. I mean, you're by

643
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: necessity you have to figure out what in your surrounding

644
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: environment is useful as food. Also, what has some sort

645
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: of medicinal property or some other property that is worth

646
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: knowing about, even some poisonous property. And then you get

647
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: into this area, well, okay, this is this is maybe

648
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: a little too potent to be consumed outright, but of

649
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: course it can be added to food, and we can

650
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: add it to this broth that we're preparing. Um it.

651
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: This reminds me too of how in Chinese traditions, it's

652
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: often described that like the the earliest tea traditions were

653
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: not the we're not were not necessarily the consumption of

654
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 1: tea as a drink the way we think of it now,

655
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: but more as a soup, um as this thing that

656
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: is prepared thusly. Uh So this ties in with so

657
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: much we're going to be discussing about, like what what

658
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: is the cauldron? What is the bowl of heated liquid.

659
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: It is a place of transformation. It can take um,

660
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: you know, that which is inedible and make it edible.

661
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: It can take uh, it can combine elements and create

662
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: something entirely new out of them. And this transformative nature

663
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: of the cauldron is key to these these various even

664
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: far flung traditions, uh that involve the supernatural in the divine. Oh. Yeah,

665
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: so we're coming back with cauldron's right. Yeah, So we're

666
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: gonna be back uh in the next episode talking about

667
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: cauldron traditions, particularly in Chinese mythology, Chinese traditions. Uh, there's

668
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: a lot of wonderful stuff in there that gets gets

669
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: very divine but also highly infernal love and evil cauldron. Yeah,

670
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: all right, So we'll be back in the next episode.

671
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: But we'd love to hear from everyone out there. What

672
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: are your thoughts about soup and soup cooking technology. UM.

673
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: I know that some of you out there have have

674
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: written in about various sort of older ancient practices that

675
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: have been you know, either revitalized or just you know,

676
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: just explored as a as an as an exercise. So

677
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: I would be very interested if anyone out there has

678
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: done any any stone boiling and if you have any

679
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,479
Speaker 1: any tidbits you'd like to share about that experience, because

680
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: I find the whole process fascinating, so right in with

681
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: any of that. Uh. In the meantime, if you want

682
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,479
Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

683
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: the core episodes published two days and Thursdays and the

684
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed. On Monday's we

685
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: usually do listener mail. On Wednesdays, we usually do an

686
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: artifact or monster fact episode, which short form episode, and

687
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns and

688
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

689
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

690
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

691
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

692
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

693
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

694
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your

695
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: Mind's production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for

696
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

697
00:39:41,400 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: or wherever you listening to your favorite shows. B Non

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00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: nonn