WEBVTT - Lady Marm-alade: Fredericka Mandelbaum

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<v Speaker 1>Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Zaren Elizabeth.

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<v Speaker 3>How are you doing pretty darn good? How are Ooh?

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be good.

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<v Speaker 3>Listen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, you know it's ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 3>I do oh nice?

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<v Speaker 2>Based on something you told me about. Okay, you were

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<v Speaker 2>telling me the other day about George Jones. Yeah, and his

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<v Speaker 2>last wife, Nancy Sepulvado. Yes, you got me curious, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I went looking into their relationship because it's a well

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<v Speaker 2>told tale.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And they were married on March fourth, nineteen eighty three,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think you may have touched upon, but which

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<v Speaker 2>is right right around now. So we're just looking at

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<v Speaker 2>an anniversary for them. Sure, congratulations to the couple. But

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<v Speaker 2>one thing I thought was really interesting because at this

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<v Speaker 2>point George is trying to be like clean and sober.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you know where they celebrated where the bride and

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<v Speaker 2>groom went to toast their nuptials?

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<v Speaker 3>I do not.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't think this might have come up. They went

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<v Speaker 2>to the local burger king following the wedding ceremony.

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<v Speaker 3>Did he get one of those paper crowns?

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<v Speaker 2>What I want to know George Jones and crown? It's

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty three, so there's still selling.

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<v Speaker 3>They each wore one, you know, they were they.

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<v Speaker 2>Go baby past the kitchen from a fries and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna toast this whopper to you.

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<v Speaker 3>Burger king, burger king. That's burger king reception. That's the

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<v Speaker 3>reception was, that's beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>I just yeah, you know, there you go.

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<v Speaker 3>I want to have it their way, really ridiculous. It's amazing.

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<v Speaker 3>I did not know that. Do you want to know

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<v Speaker 3>what else is Ridiculous Crime School? This is Ridiculous Crime

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<v Speaker 3>a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists, and cons.

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<v Speaker 3>It's always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred

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<v Speaker 3>percent ridiculous. Am right? I know I am. Do you

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<v Speaker 3>remember a while back when we met up with the

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<v Speaker 3>fellows from Ridiculous History, Oh yeah, Ben and had an

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<v Speaker 3>all to play a few games of twenty questions.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>That was two crossover episodes of Ridiculous Chaos. We had

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<v Speaker 3>to guess historical figures who pulled a flex or something

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<v Speaker 3>like that. Because I'm a total jerk, I had everyone

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<v Speaker 3>guessing about dogs, Bummer and Lazarus and Norton's pups, Cia

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<v Speaker 3>operative Ben Bolin. He had us guessing about a certain

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<v Speaker 3>historical crimer, and because he believes in women's lib he

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<v Speaker 3>picked a lady crimer. Yeah, neither of us had ever

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<v Speaker 3>heard of her at the time, You and I because

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<v Speaker 3>we're poorly educated, totally I can barely reach. So I

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<v Speaker 3>just fake it. Yeah, fake it till you make it.

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<v Speaker 3>I never learned my numbers.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes it is hummed to myself while I'm reading, like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh god, he's reading. You can tell he's making noises exactly. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Then they're like that looks like someone reading. That's what

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<v Speaker 3>I always think. So I figured, after all this time,

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<v Speaker 3>I should investigate this fine woman and tell you about her.

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<v Speaker 2>Ooh yeah, he did a deep dive.

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<v Speaker 3>I did a deep dive. Let's learn about Fredrika Mandelbaumb.

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<v Speaker 2>Freddy step On Down.

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<v Speaker 3>Aka ma Or marm mandelbarm arm Mandelbaumb. So now I

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<v Speaker 3>mentioned her on my own a little while back when

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<v Speaker 3>I was telling you about the criminal Adam Worth. He

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<v Speaker 3>worked with marm Or ma Mandelbaumb. She's the one who

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<v Speaker 3>took him from petty crimes to bank robbery, and he's

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<v Speaker 3>the guy that went on to steal Gainsborough's portrait of Georgiana,

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<v Speaker 3>Duchess of Devonshire. Ah right, so he was a real

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<v Speaker 3>one and he learned from the realist. Yeah. Mandelbaum was

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<v Speaker 3>called the Queen of the Fences. Nice and she had

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<v Speaker 3>a career that lasted more than thirty years. She was

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<v Speaker 3>a force to be reckoned with.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, she's the queen.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So she was about six feet tall. Oh wow,

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<v Speaker 3>oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Big statuesque woman, big.

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<v Speaker 3>Hefty gal, round apple cheeks. She had huge, bushy eyebrow.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh heck.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, she took up space and did not give a damn.

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<v Speaker 2>I apologetic.

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<v Speaker 3>I love it, love it. So, as you know, newspaper

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<v Speaker 3>folks back in the eighteen hundreds were unkind.

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<v Speaker 2>Yo, God were they.

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<v Speaker 3>So are modern writerly types.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, still holding true to the traditions.

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<v Speaker 3>Margalite Fox wrote a book called The Talented Missus Mandelbaum

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<v Speaker 3>that came out in twenty twenty four. Great book. In it,

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<v Speaker 3>she describes ma as looking like quote, the product of

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<v Speaker 3>a congenial liaison between a dumpling and a mountain. Whoa,

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<v Speaker 3>And I find that totally unnecessary.

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<v Speaker 2>Totally I don't even find it that created no. So missus,

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<v Speaker 2>Now I got a picture of dumpling in a mountain

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<v Speaker 2>getting busy marghlite.

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<v Speaker 3>I could easily pull pictures of you and go at it,

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<v Speaker 3>but I am a lady. We don't do the roast,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'll pretend I'm a gentleman anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>Ma.

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<v Speaker 3>So Fredrika Henriette August Weissner was born on March twenty eighth,

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<v Speaker 3>eighteen twenty five, in Castle, a city in what is now.

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<v Speaker 2>Central German totally cost German.

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<v Speaker 3>So. She was one of seven children born to Samuel

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<v Speaker 3>Abraham Weissner and his wife Rohell. In eighteen forty eight,

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<v Speaker 3>she married Wolf Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>Mandelbamb Wolf Mandelbomb Wolf.

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<v Speaker 3>He was a traveling peddler. He was a little bit older.

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<v Speaker 3>His name was Wolf, so he was a sexy bad

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<v Speaker 3>boy of rock and roll. Of course, he rode a

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<v Speaker 3>horse drawn motorcycle, kind of like how the Amish have

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<v Speaker 3>horse drawn helicopters. So Wolf Wolf married Fredrika.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm still having.

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<v Speaker 3>Like I can do all the sound effects for it,

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<v Speaker 3>and then I'm just gonna pretend like I'm reading.

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<v Speaker 2>Wolf. That's a bad spot to be beyond two horses

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<v Speaker 2>all low.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, do you think he had like the what

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<v Speaker 3>are they called the ape hanger?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, get that?

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<v Speaker 2>That would be amazing like.

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<v Speaker 3>A sledge in a real sled going to the Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>and then the like on the ends of the handlebars

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<v Speaker 3>that in bright colors, like a kid's bike, sparkly. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>white white handlebar rips. Anyway, Okay, so Wolf married for Drika,

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<v Speaker 3>then he moved to the US in search of a

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<v Speaker 3>better life with her. Yeah, you know, but he made

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<v Speaker 3>sure to put her in the family way first.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so he was an anchor Wolf.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, well, they should have had the anchor baby.

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<v Speaker 2>He went first as the anchor I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, he kind of flipped it.

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<v Speaker 3>So two years after he took off in eighteen fifty,

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<v Speaker 3>she and their daughter joined Wolf in New York City

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<v Speaker 3>and they settled in Manhattan's Lower East Side in the

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<v Speaker 3>German immigrant neighborhood known as This is a Weird One.

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<v Speaker 2>Little Germany did not see that coming.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you can say that in German, but like, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't do that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh you don't say little Germany.

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<v Speaker 3>I know it's the little Germany. That's how you say

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<v Speaker 3>it in Germany. It is teane Deutsch Lemn Okay, but

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't want to mess it up.

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<v Speaker 2>Look at me, having German friends for parents, by friends

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<v Speaker 2>having German parents.

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<v Speaker 3>So this neighborhood was like super high density.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, jam packed with new immigrants.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, they had full dreams, empty pocketbooks. The conditions

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<v Speaker 3>were terrible, yes, yeah, so the buildings weren't maintained in

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<v Speaker 3>the least totally falling apart. There's like no lighting.

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<v Speaker 2>You're hearing your neighbors coughing on.

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<v Speaker 3>Some of the windows didn't open, there's like no cross

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of times they'd have like more than twenty

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<v Speaker 3>families shoved into one single small building.

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<v Speaker 2>This is like why we have health departments now.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, no indoor plumbing. You go down to the street,

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<v Speaker 3>pump water into a bucket, carry it back the stairs.

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<v Speaker 3>And the toilets were smelly outhouses in the back alley. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>so a bunch of people sharing one.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's also just horse droppings all over the street.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's smelly in the front and the back.

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<v Speaker 3>Honey, it is poop city.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think people get how much there was.

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<v Speaker 3>No, there's so much.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like twenty years ago, so much poop people windows.

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<v Speaker 3>You were eating big meals.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, big sloppy meals, lot of meat, meals. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, and like I'm getting you meats like liver.

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<v Speaker 3>Sausages. Yeah, oh yeah, buddy, I'm glad I don't have

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<v Speaker 3>the time.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm glad it's not close to lunchtime.

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<v Speaker 3>So Wolf, if he stayed on the same career path

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<v Speaker 3>in the States as he had been doing back in Germany.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, pedlar pedlar.

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<v Speaker 3>So he went around selling things, a little bits and bobs.

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<v Speaker 2>They dropped the blanket, got all the stuff, yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Little card, all with a bell or something. And so

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<v Speaker 3>it was pretty widely known that pedlars often worked on

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<v Speaker 3>the wrong side of the law.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they got to get the stuff somewhere, Elizabeth.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but there was Wolf selling crap on the up

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<v Speaker 3>and up. He's just like legit, Yeah, he just got

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<v Speaker 3>deal crap.

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<v Speaker 2>So pretty I'm a ninety nine cent store.

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<v Speaker 3>That's exactly. Pretty soon they need money, So for Drika

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<v Speaker 3>starts peddling. She had to work. They're starving. So she

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<v Speaker 3>goes door to door in the Lower east Side selling lace.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh nice, you can get a good, pretty petty for that.

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<v Speaker 3>Pretty soon they had four kids, but not four times

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<v Speaker 3>the income. Oh ue draw Yeah, So for Drika she

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<v Speaker 3>realizes like, okay, I am not making enough money selling

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<v Speaker 3>lace door to door, and I don't have a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of opportunities for advancement because like, there are only certain

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<v Speaker 3>jobs that a working class woman could have in those Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>laundry and that's like backbreaking work, crowded, feed chemical, A

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<v Speaker 3>lot of people are doing it. She could be a maid,

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<v Speaker 3>but they made almost nothing, and they usually didn't have

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<v Speaker 3>four kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeahs younger, so they can beholden to that family, right

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<v Speaker 2>and fai home and feed.

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<v Speaker 3>You could be a prostitute, but she was a married woman.

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<v Speaker 3>She didn't want to do that. It was just a

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<v Speaker 3>bridge too far. So she kept pedling. But she looked

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<v Speaker 3>around and she saw that some of the people were

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<v Speaker 3>peddling ill gotten goods, and she had no problem with that.

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<v Speaker 3>So she had this great personality. People loved her and

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<v Speaker 3>she made connections. So she began her criminal career by

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<v Speaker 3>buying and then reselling stuff that had been scavenged or stolen. So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>street thieves known as groaners and files brought her stuff

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<v Speaker 3>to her push carts. So groaners were thieves who went

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<v Speaker 3>to revivals and charity sermons and they'd rob the congregation

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<v Speaker 3>of their watches and purses and like switch out bad

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<v Speaker 3>hats for like they had a crappy hat and they'd

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<v Speaker 3>see a nice one swap them. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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<v Speaker 3>They stole prayer.

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<v Speaker 2>Books, anything that's not nailed down.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like the lowest behavior in church of it. Bottom

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<v Speaker 3>of the barrel files files were basically pickpockets. They worked

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<v Speaker 3>with someone called a bulker and the bulker would bump

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<v Speaker 3>into were like stop the mark, the file would slip

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<v Speaker 3>in steal whatever valuable they could try, right, So, these

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<v Speaker 3>folks would come to Ma with the stuff that they

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<v Speaker 3>stall and she'd buy it off from cheap and then

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<v Speaker 3>flip it. And during this early period, she apprenticed herself

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<v Speaker 3>to this really well known fence named General Abe Greenthal.

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<v Speaker 3>He was known as perhaps the best pickpocket in the

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<v Speaker 3>United States. Really yeah, so she trained with the best.

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<v Speaker 2>That's why he was the general.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. He was born in what is now Poland in

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<v Speaker 3>eighteen twenty two. He told everyone, who's German though, he led.

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<v Speaker 2>This city Thessian Empire.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, so he led a syndicate of Jewish pickpockets

0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.800
<v Speaker 3>who worked nationwide. They did the Bulkan file thing, jostling

0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:49.360
<v Speaker 3>into victims in crowded places. As like train stations, and

0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.880
<v Speaker 3>the gang that he ran with included most of his

0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:53.960
<v Speaker 3>family a family.

0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Tradition, gang, family, whatever.

0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.280
<v Speaker 3>So in an article about his passing, The New York

0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.559
<v Speaker 3>Times wrote the quote, all the Greenthal family have turned

0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.440
<v Speaker 3>out to be criminals, the women being shoplifters and the

0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.880
<v Speaker 3>men pickpockets. You know, there's a place for everybody's errand.

0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I never got two hands, might not use them.

0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.760
<v Speaker 3>The General wasn't just an expert pickpocket. He was also

0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.800
<v Speaker 3>a first class fence. And it was under his guidance

0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.920
<v Speaker 3>that Ma learned how to evaluate luxury merchandise. And she

0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.520
<v Speaker 3>learned all the details to look for, like the feel

0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.600
<v Speaker 3>of the fabrics, the weight and touch of metals and gems,

0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.800
<v Speaker 3>the quality manufacturing and craftsmanship that you know makes these

0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.760
<v Speaker 3>things so valuing. Yeah, and she learned how to move

0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.920
<v Speaker 3>stolen goods turn a tidy profit, and she learned to

0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.000
<v Speaker 3>keep the majority of the profit for herself.

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:45.640
<v Speaker 2>She's getting good smart.

0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.160
<v Speaker 3>So by the end of the Civil War eighteen sixty five,

0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.040
<v Speaker 3>she had tucked enough money away and had enough to

0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 3>open a legitimate looking dry goods store, just a front.

0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.840
<v Speaker 3>It gave her cover in like assessing luxury textiles and

0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:05.320
<v Speaker 3>materials things like silk lace, cashmere, and seal skin which

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.000
<v Speaker 3>is called pin seal when it's made into leather, which

0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:09.360
<v Speaker 3>bums me all the way out.

0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, but it was a you know, I was

0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 2>a nice fabric.

0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 3>It was a luxury material. Seal skin and pin seal.

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:18.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a lot of like oil.

0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:23.240
<v Speaker 3>Mean Yeah, So mandelbomb suppliers were young thieves. They stole

0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.319
<v Speaker 3>stuff from warehouses, delivery wagons, they go down to.

0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.640
<v Speaker 2>The docks of a truck.

0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.360
<v Speaker 3>Yes, basically she bought their stolen goods at this fraction

0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.080
<v Speaker 3>of a wholesale value, so let's say ten percent, right,

0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.440
<v Speaker 3>So they got it for free. So anything they make

0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.080
<v Speaker 3>is going to make them happy. So like, let's suppose

0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 3>the wholesale value is one hundred dollars, so they get

0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.240
<v Speaker 3>ten bucks. Then she would resell the stuff to her customers,

0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.320
<v Speaker 3>and these were people like tailors or just housewives looking

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.960
<v Speaker 3>for a deal. She'd charge them more, but still way

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 3>under the full wholesale value.

0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, market price is one hundred dollars.

0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.840
<v Speaker 3>For wholesale, I forget even reach tail value.

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 3>So if these folks they would have had to pay

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.640
<v Speaker 3>one hundred wholesale she charges them like sixty Okay, so

0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:10.520
<v Speaker 3>she's turning a fifty dollars profit out of basically nothing. Yeah,

0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.679
<v Speaker 3>the economy was changing in the US at the time.

0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.840
<v Speaker 3>You know, we've got growing industrialization. Cities are growing with

0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.640
<v Speaker 3>like both immigrants and those coming in from the country

0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:21.720
<v Speaker 3>looking for jobs.

0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, these factories are growing.

0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So despite growing wealth inequality as well, there's a

0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 3>growing middle class and they weren't living by such razor margins,

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.720
<v Speaker 3>and they wanted nice things too. Sure, so luxury items

0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 3>like cashmere shawls could pull in incredible prices. It costs

0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.560
<v Speaker 3>so much. According to Marglite Fox quote, a single cashmere

0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.200
<v Speaker 3>shawl from that time would sell for the equivalent of

0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.600
<v Speaker 3>forty five thousand dollars in today's dollars.

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:53.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, need to pick my jaw back up off

0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 2>the floor. Forty five thousand dollars for a piece of

0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.280
<v Speaker 2>clothing that is like flimsy.

0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.760
<v Speaker 3>At They're not flimsy shawl. You know, I have like

0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 3>a fur coat. You know, I have a kashmere problem

0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 3>wearing a cashmere sweater.

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.240
<v Speaker 2>I know you do. But that's like a light thing,

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 2>and I know it's like lace's light. It's also expensive

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm not suggesting, but I mean that's not a lot

0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 2>of material.

0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:16.800
<v Speaker 4>No.

0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.840
<v Speaker 3>I love a good Kashmere shaw like a scarf so

0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.640
<v Speaker 3>huge as to engulf one. Yes, I would not, However,

0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:25.520
<v Speaker 3>in a million years pay forty five thousand dollars.

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I pay forty five hundred dollars for

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:28.240
<v Speaker 2>a shawl.

0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 3>What would middle class Elizabeth do back then?

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Where would you place the cap on? How much you

0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.640
<v Speaker 2>pay for a really nice like this is my my

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 2>favorite show?

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.160
<v Speaker 3>Well, it depends on all the quality of the casual.

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Say it's nice, and imagine it's really nice.

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.240
<v Speaker 3>You're and I need Kashmere. So I have to really

0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.120
<v Speaker 3>think about this. Mom mandel Mam was like in the

0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:53.560
<v Speaker 3>legal version of quints, okay, like affordable. I would totally

0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.880
<v Speaker 3>be hanging around her store. I know, like, do you

0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:56.720
<v Speaker 3>have the boyfriend car?

0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:58.040
<v Speaker 2>You would have one of those tickets.

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.360
<v Speaker 3>I think like if you get I'd look at like

0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:07.920
<v Speaker 3>three hundred dollars would be like a low a Kashmir shawl. Sure,

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.600
<v Speaker 3>So if I really like this was a nice like

0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.640
<v Speaker 3>a couple grand, I don't know, I personally wouldn't pay

0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:21.640
<v Speaker 3>that grand. Maybe reddit afterwards I'd be like, oh.

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.680
<v Speaker 2>My god, what have I done?

0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's no pay a thousand dollars for it, you know,

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:29.440
<v Speaker 3>but that'd be a nice, nice, nice one.

0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Sure, I would assume.

0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.960
<v Speaker 3>So anyway, that of course, Like if you're looking at

0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.280
<v Speaker 3>forty five thousand.

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.040
<v Speaker 2>Dollars equivalent, that's that's like today a nice used Trump.

0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.400
<v Speaker 3>And Ma's like, you got fifty bucks.

0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like a brand new Chinese ev Yes exactly.

0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 3>And I say this as I am currently wearing a

0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:50.520
<v Speaker 3>cashmere sweater.

0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I know.

0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:52.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know how much that would.

0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 2>I know that too. I wasn't even go as.

0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.120
<v Speaker 3>In those days it didn't cost me forty five thousand dollars.

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.680
<v Speaker 3>So Ma, she exploited the gap between rising demand and

0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.480
<v Speaker 3>the availability of stolen merch, and that's how she made

0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:08.920
<v Speaker 3>an obscene.

0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Amount of money.

0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.840
<v Speaker 3>Apparently, let's take a break when we return more stolen goods.

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.000
<v Speaker 3>Zaren Elizabeth, welcome back. Hey have a Cashmi wrap.

0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.679
<v Speaker 2>I just bought a sixty thousand dollars pair of socks.

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:47.639
<v Speaker 3>They're really nice, Mom, Mandelbah, she's making it work. So

0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.280
<v Speaker 3>she has moved from peddling is one hundred percent focused

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:55.119
<v Speaker 3>on her growing criminal empire. She also benefited from like

0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.960
<v Speaker 3>the broader political and economic climate of New York City

0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:03.199
<v Speaker 3>at the time, Like corruption was everywhere. Yeah, I mean

0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.959
<v Speaker 3>you had Tammany Hall exactly, and it was just it

0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:06.560
<v Speaker 3>was a big mess.

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 2>And also like ostentatious, like flourishes of wealth are starting

0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.800
<v Speaker 2>to become the fashion of the day. We're not quite

0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.760
<v Speaker 2>to like, you know, the whatever the whatever you want

0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:18.840
<v Speaker 2>to call the eighteen nineties. There's lots of different nickties,

0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:20.840
<v Speaker 2>but like you know, the Gilded Age will say, but.

0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.119
<v Speaker 3>We're on our way. The trends that people watch live

0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.840
<v Speaker 3>up to. And the thing is, it's like it that

0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.920
<v Speaker 3>spark for what, you know, some would call the Gilded

0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.639
<v Speaker 3>Age of you know, if you have any kind of

0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:39.439
<v Speaker 3>show of wealth, you're welcomed in, no questions asked. Yeah, so,

0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean she fits right in with that. So and

0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:46.719
<v Speaker 3>we're transitioning from an agrarian economy to like this capitalist

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:51.639
<v Speaker 3>urban commerce. She built her fortune by you know, taking

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.560
<v Speaker 3>things out of legitimate trade channels and you know, putting

0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:55.560
<v Speaker 3>them on the illicit market.

0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.960
<v Speaker 2>And and in a way that cops really don't usually

0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.440
<v Speaker 2>mess with. There's no violence. They're like, what can we do?

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, And then maybe they'll take a little on

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.280
<v Speaker 3>the side. Yeah, so by she's got eighteen sixty five.

0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.560
<v Speaker 3>She's got the modest dry goods store on Clinton Street

0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.000
<v Speaker 3>the Lower east Side, So let's talk about that a

0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.680
<v Speaker 3>little bit. It served as the public front for this

0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.720
<v Speaker 3>rapidly expanding criminal operation. There was the store front, but

0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.439
<v Speaker 3>then there were also like this warren of rooms behind

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.840
<v Speaker 3>the shop that functioned as headquarters for the network. So

0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:32.520
<v Speaker 3>inside the building at Clinton and Rivington, she had all

0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.119
<v Speaker 3>of these hidden features to hide stuff. So look normal

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.600
<v Speaker 3>when you walk in downst room, they were altering and

0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.240
<v Speaker 3>like stripping identifying marks off of stuff.

0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:44.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh, there's not like a stock room first, and then

0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:45.160
<v Speaker 2>behind that they.

0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.840
<v Speaker 3>Right, they're taking gemstones out of settings. They're taking like

0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.080
<v Speaker 3>hallmarks off of jewelry and silverware.

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Literally behind the curtain you got jewelers.

0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 3>Kind away manufacturers, labels from textiles. And then there was

0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:03.480
<v Speaker 3>like a trapdoor that led to other places concealed passageways.

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.800
<v Speaker 3>This a tunnel network chimney. Yeah, oh yeah. There was

0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.800
<v Speaker 3>a hidden parlor where she could like secretly observe transaction.

0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.000
<v Speaker 3>There was a dormitory for when they needed to arrest

0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:17.720
<v Speaker 3>the thieves.

0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've been working all night, tired.

0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:25.160
<v Speaker 3>You take five. The upstairs was her family apartment where

0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.679
<v Speaker 3>the kids were being raised. This is all all there.

0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.840
<v Speaker 3>Her primary business became fencing stolen property, so she really

0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.600
<v Speaker 3>wasn't out there doing anything. Smart criminals who stole items,

0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:40.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, jewelry, furniture sold to her. She turned it around.

0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.240
<v Speaker 2>I assume they're coming to the back, yes, and here's

0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.879
<v Speaker 2>what I got.

0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.159
<v Speaker 3>Exactly back entrance and all that stuff she really like.

0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.399
<v Speaker 3>She preferred stuff like silk and diamonds. They could be

0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:57.240
<v Speaker 3>purchased cheaply, resold at huge profits, hard to prove where

0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.560
<v Speaker 3>they came from exactly. She was willing to handle almost anything, though.

0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.560
<v Speaker 3>There's this story that goes that after the Great Chicago Fire,

0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.040
<v Speaker 3>thieves brought her a herd of goats that they stole

0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.560
<v Speaker 3>and during the chaos, and she was like yeah, and

0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:14.800
<v Speaker 3>she's like, y'all take them. How they got the goats

0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:15.920
<v Speaker 3>from Chicago, New York?

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:17.640
<v Speaker 2>I cannot say, I'm going to assume a train.

0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:23.000
<v Speaker 3>I guess who knows. So she sought out experienced criminals

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.440
<v Speaker 3>rather than like street brawlers or petty scavengers. A lot

0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:31.160
<v Speaker 3>of the women that she employed specialized in shoplifting from

0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:32.199
<v Speaker 3>department stores, which we.

0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Saw them rot as was imagining some upscale maids who

0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.680
<v Speaker 2>are like, you know, going to leave their employer.

0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.800
<v Speaker 3>She taught these women like how to move through the

0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:47.520
<v Speaker 3>department stores without attracting any attention. There's this police inspector

0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.439
<v Speaker 3>Thomas Burns. He wrote a book about the criminals at

0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.800
<v Speaker 3>the time, and he recorded all of her known associates

0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:58.120
<v Speaker 3>in this eighteen eighty six book. There was Mike Kurtz

0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 3>and he was one of the co found of the

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.119
<v Speaker 3>Dutch Mob during the eighteen seventies. He went to prison

0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.159
<v Speaker 3>for silk theft and then while he was inside he

0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.320
<v Speaker 3>found out that eating soap could make you sick.

0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.720
<v Speaker 2>He had to go to prison, so he ate soap.

0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.040
<v Speaker 3>And he got sick and he lost wade. He was

0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 3>a mess. Prison doctors are like, I don't know, we

0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.040
<v Speaker 3>don't know what's wrong with him. Sure, we don't know

0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.000
<v Speaker 3>what to do. I'm just going to diagnose him as dying.

0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.639
<v Speaker 3>And so he got a pardon and then he stopped

0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.240
<v Speaker 3>eating soap and he was fine. So that was upright,

0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:34.440
<v Speaker 3>having people.

0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.399
<v Speaker 2>Why you inside, I was pushing silk silk, What do

0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:37.639
<v Speaker 2>you know?

0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:43.240
<v Speaker 3>Now I'm eating soap okay. So then he had Mary Holbrook.

0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.120
<v Speaker 3>She was an Irish born pickpocket and a shop lifter.

0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.919
<v Speaker 3>She bounced around between Boston, Chicago, New York. She is

0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.800
<v Speaker 3>called the most notorious female thief in America. In the

0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:56.679
<v Speaker 3>late eighteen hundreds Mary Whole book. She was running a

0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:01.479
<v Speaker 3>brothel when she married this guy thief named Holbrook. And

0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:05.000
<v Speaker 3>in eighteen sixty nine he and his gang went to

0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:09.000
<v Speaker 3>western Illinois to rob some banks. They got caught. Buck

0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 3>and his buddies tried to tunnel their way out of jail,

0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:14.639
<v Speaker 3>but they got caught again. He did not survive a

0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:19.560
<v Speaker 3>prison guard's excitability with a shotgun. Yeah, bad luck, Buckshot.

0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.560
<v Speaker 3>Molly gave him a proper funeral and said, quote, we

0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.240
<v Speaker 3>all know that Buck was not on the square, but

0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:28.399
<v Speaker 3>he was always a good and kind man to me,

0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.360
<v Speaker 3>that is the measure. And over like one hundred people,

0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:37.119
<v Speaker 3>all these thieves and like prostitutes and ruffians went to

0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.840
<v Speaker 3>his funeral. Then Molly met and married this guy, Jimmy Hoy.

0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:43.960
<v Speaker 3>He was a pickpocket and they ran a pickpocket ring together.

0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:47.800
<v Speaker 3>She found new love. And this is around the time

0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:51.240
<v Speaker 3>that she worked under Ma. Then there was Sophie Levy

0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:56.320
<v Speaker 3>aka Sophie Lyons. She was a young pickpocket yeah, and

0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.880
<v Speaker 3>a blackmailer. She was regarded as one of Ma's top

0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:03.440
<v Speaker 3>proteges and like her, Skime like her. The whole thing

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.920
<v Speaker 3>was that she would lure men into hotel rooms, wait

0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:09.520
<v Speaker 3>until they got undressed, and then steal their clothes and

0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:11.280
<v Speaker 3>demand money to give it back to them.

0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I thought you'd have like a male Confederate county.

0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:17.879
<v Speaker 3>It was like, nope, I've got your pants. Yeah, I

0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:18.840
<v Speaker 3>got your honey pants.

0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Everybody knows because your name's are in it exactly.

0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:26.480
<v Speaker 3>Now give me fifty bucks. There was also black Lina Kleinschmidt,

0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:30.480
<v Speaker 3>Black Lina kleins Yeah, and so she, like Sophie Lyons,

0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 3>was like a close student of moz and Black Lina

0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 3>was another German born criminal in New York. She's struggling

0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.800
<v Speaker 3>to get by. She got busted in eighteen eighty trying

0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:43.720
<v Speaker 3>to steal one hundred and eight yards of silk worth

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.359
<v Speaker 3>two hundred and fifty dollars and that's like eight thousand today.

0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:50.480
<v Speaker 3>When she finally got out of jail, she skipped bail

0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:52.320
<v Speaker 3>and she was like caught and they put time on

0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.760
<v Speaker 3>her ticket. She moved to Hackensack, New Jersey. When she's

0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:59.719
<v Speaker 3>finally out there, she posed as a wealthy widow of

0:24:59.840 --> 0:25:01.959
<v Speaker 3>a South American mining tycoon.

0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:04.639
<v Speaker 2>That's brilliant, creative. I thought she's gonna go with her.

0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 3>I love it.

0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:08.120
<v Speaker 2>The widow of a boat captain who saying she went,

0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:10.199
<v Speaker 2>she went off the American mining magnet.

0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:14.920
<v Speaker 3>She copied Ma's lavish and like convivial style. She threw

0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:16.960
<v Speaker 3>these really fancy dinner parties.

0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:19.080
<v Speaker 2>She's kind of a bone v yes, yes.

0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:21.840
<v Speaker 3>And it was at these parties that she'd rob her guests.

0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.760
<v Speaker 3>And then she was to go from Hackensack up to

0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:28.679
<v Speaker 3>New York, sell the stuff, and then come back with

0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:31.040
<v Speaker 3>the money to throw another huge party and keep the

0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:34.119
<v Speaker 3>lifestyle going. And she got busted for that when she

0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:37.199
<v Speaker 3>wound up wearing this emerald ring that she'd stolen and

0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:39.359
<v Speaker 3>the victim recognized it at the next party.

0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:40.080
<v Speaker 2>You can't do that.

0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:40.800
<v Speaker 3>You can't do that.

0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Also, you got to have some kind of like Patsy

0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:45.800
<v Speaker 2>who you can blame for stuff goes bad. You gotta

0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.360
<v Speaker 2>be like, oh no, there is one guy. I don't

0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:50.639
<v Speaker 2>know why he's around. He's got to be also family,

0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:52.720
<v Speaker 2>so he knows you're not really throwing him under the bus.

0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:54.480
<v Speaker 2>You're just like you need to go cool up for it.

0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:56.720
<v Speaker 3>She's she got lazy.

0:25:57.400 --> 0:25:59.080
<v Speaker 2>There was this thing and covetous.

0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:03.240
<v Speaker 3>Native shoplift her a Litland known as kid glove Rosie.

0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Was he a was she like a legitimate like little person?

0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:07.000
<v Speaker 5>No?

0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:08.040
<v Speaker 3>No, no, she was just short.

0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:10.120
<v Speaker 2>She was just a tiny one.

0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:13.399
<v Speaker 3>And kid Glove Rosie worked with Black Lena a lot,

0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:16.639
<v Speaker 3>and she got busted. Yeah, kid Glove Rosie got busted

0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:19.280
<v Speaker 3>on that silk heist with her like her.

0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Hands are the size of a kid's school.

0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:22.399
<v Speaker 3>I guess I don't know, or she would you know,

0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:25.800
<v Speaker 3>she would handle thing with kids, kid gloves. She was

0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:27.600
<v Speaker 3>a gentle touch in her shoplifting.

0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:27.959
<v Speaker 2>Like.

0:26:28.400 --> 0:26:32.000
<v Speaker 3>There was also this elderly Irish pickpocket named Old Mother Hubbard,

0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:36.400
<v Speaker 3>and her specialty was being able to get into any

0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.959
<v Speaker 3>woman's handbag and take the coin purse out like she

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:40.880
<v Speaker 3>could just she was incredible with that.

0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Was she literally an elderly woman, an old.

0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:48.560
<v Speaker 3>Irish lady Mom managed this really diverse group. I mean,

0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:52.760
<v Speaker 3>you think about it, it's primarily German born Jewish immigrants,

0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:56.399
<v Speaker 3>but then like like a healthy dose of Irish and

0:26:56.440 --> 0:26:59.440
<v Speaker 3>these are the people who were fully marginalized.

0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:00.560
<v Speaker 2>All the time and living right now near each other.

0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:06.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and so they're like exactly. So she's got this

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:10.280
<v Speaker 3>huge group and she organized them so well. And to

0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:14.840
<v Speaker 3>protect herself from prosecution, she wouldn't take stolen goods directly

0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:18.480
<v Speaker 3>at the shop. She had them stored in various rented

0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:22.960
<v Speaker 3>properties all around the city. So, despite all her criminal activities,

0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:27.399
<v Speaker 3>she developed this reputation for loyalty and reliability among all

0:27:27.400 --> 0:27:30.680
<v Speaker 3>the people who worked with her and for her money.

0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:30.960
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:27:31.040 --> 0:27:33.280
<v Speaker 3>Well, and according to New York's chief of police at

0:27:33.320 --> 0:27:37.840
<v Speaker 3>the time, George Walling, she was widely regarded as scrupulously

0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:42.280
<v Speaker 3>fair within the criminal world, and her success came in

0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:46.000
<v Speaker 3>large part because she had this support. Like saying, quick

0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.879
<v Speaker 3>with the bail money. She rarely betrayed anyone who worked

0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:53.440
<v Speaker 3>with her. She would do the bail, she'd get lawyers

0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:58.760
<v Speaker 3>for people. Newspapers sometimes described her with this like aura

0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:02.800
<v Speaker 3>of respect, that she was respectable and even like philanthropic.

0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:10.040
<v Speaker 2>She sounds straight up gangster, I mean the original gangster.

0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:15.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes, So her influence went way beyond just like simple fencing. So,

0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:17.960
<v Speaker 3>like I said, there's you know, you've got Tammany Hall

0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:21.040
<v Speaker 3>going on. Well, she cozies up to all those politicians.

0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 2>They're dirty and corrupting. Criminal.

0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:24.200
<v Speaker 3>Cozy is up to the police department.

0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:29.639
<v Speaker 4>She knows all these officers and detectives. They she'd have

0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:33.360
<v Speaker 4>these elaborate dinners at her home and she would entertain

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:36.320
<v Speaker 4>them and then you know, she would pay them off.

0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:39.920
<v Speaker 3>To look the other way. She would have sometimes like

0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:42.720
<v Speaker 3>for her network. She would also throw them big, you

0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:44.360
<v Speaker 3>know parties, picnics.

0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:47.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I'm sure donate to the policeman's retirement.

0:28:47.840 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 3>Even her criminal gangs, She's like, let's have a company picnic.

0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:57.880
<v Speaker 3>Let's do it. Some people had like regular salaries with her,

0:28:58.040 --> 0:28:59.560
<v Speaker 3>rather than just being paid by.

0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:01.120
<v Speaker 2>The peace ahead of her curry.

0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:05.120
<v Speaker 3>And that's how she got all these maternal nicknames mar mother, ma, mother,

0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:08.480
<v Speaker 3>bomb th like so they called her so. Stories circulated

0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:12.160
<v Speaker 3>that she even established a training school for young criminals.

0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:23.480
<v Speaker 3>Zaren closure eyes. Yes, I want you to picture it.

0:29:23.480 --> 0:29:27.840
<v Speaker 3>It's October of eighteen seventy six. You are a thirteen

0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:30.720
<v Speaker 3>year old boy sent to enroll at a local school,

0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:34.120
<v Speaker 3>a school for criminals. You walk up to the building

0:29:34.160 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 3>at Clinton and Grand in New York's Lower East Side.

0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:40.240
<v Speaker 3>It's a chaotic scene on the street. Vendors jostles for

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:43.840
<v Speaker 3>customers on the sidewalks and in the gutters, as horses

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:47.560
<v Speaker 3>slowly pull carts laden with goods up the street. Shops

0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:50.320
<v Speaker 3>with Hebrew lettering painted on the windows flanked a building

0:29:50.840 --> 0:29:53.800
<v Speaker 3>signs above you. Up and down the street advertised rooms

0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:57.360
<v Speaker 3>for rent, or cobbler services or baked goods. People laugh,

0:29:57.480 --> 0:30:00.479
<v Speaker 3>they argue, They call to one another in Yiddish. You

0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:03.520
<v Speaker 3>are a red headed Irish kid. Here's a little out

0:30:03.520 --> 0:30:06.560
<v Speaker 3>of his element here, but you feel alive, You feel ready.

0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:10.960
<v Speaker 3>Three blocks down at Clinton and Rivington is Mom Mandelbaum's

0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 3>dry goods store. You are well aware that it's a front.

0:30:14.440 --> 0:30:17.880
<v Speaker 3>You've walked by and peeked in. You've heard stories. You

0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:21.840
<v Speaker 3>are a very intelligent, very precocious kid. You have street smarts,

0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:24.120
<v Speaker 3>and you're going to go far in this world. And

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 3>to help you on your way, you're trying to get

0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.360
<v Speaker 3>into Ma's school for criminal kids. You ring the bell

0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:32.080
<v Speaker 3>and a woman in her twenties opens the door. She

0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:34.960
<v Speaker 3>asks who sent you? You tell her old mother Hubbard

0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:37.640
<v Speaker 3>knows you sent you here to get a start. She

0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:40.000
<v Speaker 3>looks you up and down and then nods and lets

0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:43.120
<v Speaker 3>you in. She passes you off to an older teen boy.

0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:45.520
<v Speaker 3>He tells you he's going to give you a tour

0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:48.160
<v Speaker 3>and then you'll get started. You follow him up a

0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:51.800
<v Speaker 3>flight of creaking stairs to a wide landing. He tells

0:30:51.800 --> 0:30:55.280
<v Speaker 3>you that beginners start with pickpocketing and small thefts. He

0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 3>asks if you have any experience with that. Sure, you say,

0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:01.600
<v Speaker 3>I know all about it. He eyes you suspiciously. You

0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:04.880
<v Speaker 3>stare at him and reach into your pocket, keeping his

0:31:04.920 --> 0:31:08.040
<v Speaker 3>eye contact, you pull out a pearl handled knife. The

0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:12.320
<v Speaker 3>boy's face goes pale. That's my knife, he stammers, patting

0:31:12.320 --> 0:31:15.120
<v Speaker 3>at his pocket. You hand it back to him. Indeed

0:31:15.120 --> 0:31:18.000
<v Speaker 3>it is, you say, Then you smirk. The boy puts

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:20.600
<v Speaker 3>the knife into his inside jacket pocket, stares at you,

0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:23.920
<v Speaker 3>and continues his tour. You walk down the hall and

0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:26.360
<v Speaker 3>stop in front of a room. A woman instructs a

0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:28.600
<v Speaker 3>young girl to bump into a boy as she walks

0:31:28.600 --> 0:31:31.960
<v Speaker 3>by him. She does as she's told again. The teacher

0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:34.920
<v Speaker 3>demands the children take their places and pretend once more

0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:37.800
<v Speaker 3>to pass each other on the street. We'll be teaching

0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:40.720
<v Speaker 3>you the techniques of distraction and stealth, but I'm not

0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:43.240
<v Speaker 3>sure you need much teaching in that department, he says.

0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:46.360
<v Speaker 3>He tells you that the next step is more complex crimes.

0:31:46.800 --> 0:31:49.880
<v Speaker 3>You follow him down the hall to another room. Inside,

0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:52.080
<v Speaker 3>a group of young boys sits on the floor and

0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:54.280
<v Speaker 3>they watch in awe as an old man with a

0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:57.520
<v Speaker 3>long gray beard slowly turns the dial on a safe.

0:31:57.960 --> 0:31:59.680
<v Speaker 3>He looks up at you and smiles and goes back

0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:02.680
<v Speaker 3>to the work. Your guide tells you that you'll learn

0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:07.080
<v Speaker 3>stuff like burglary, blackmail, and safe cracking unless you already

0:32:07.120 --> 0:32:09.240
<v Speaker 3>know how to crack a safe, he says no. You

0:32:09.320 --> 0:32:12.320
<v Speaker 3>tell him not yet, that's why you're here. The two

0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:15.120
<v Speaker 3>of you reach another stairwell and climb to the next floor.

0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:17.720
<v Speaker 3>The boy tells you that if you show real talent,

0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:22.200
<v Speaker 3>you'll be able to join Mandelbaum's organization immediately. He says,

0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:24.480
<v Speaker 3>Moss started the school six years ago. He was in

0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:27.760
<v Speaker 3>the first class. You stop at another open door. It

0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:31.680
<v Speaker 3>looks like a traditional classroom. Inside, students sit in rows

0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:35.560
<v Speaker 3>of desks, their heads down, brows furrowed, and concentration as

0:32:35.560 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 3>they practice forging a signature posted on a large paper

0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:41.040
<v Speaker 3>taped to a chalkboard. At the front of the room,

0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:44.000
<v Speaker 3>a boy with ink smeared on his cheek, glances up

0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 3>at you, and then gets back to work. Your guide

0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:48.600
<v Speaker 3>tells you you're going to go see the dining area,

0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:51.440
<v Speaker 3>and you start down the hall, but stop abruptly. An

0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:56.720
<v Speaker 3>enormous woman blocks your path. She is imposing, she is serene.

0:32:57.400 --> 0:32:59.880
<v Speaker 3>She asks you your name, and you tell her you're honest,

0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:02.800
<v Speaker 3>no alias. She stares at you, looks you up and down.

0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:06.480
<v Speaker 3>Where are you from? She asks, Hell's kitchen? You tell

0:33:06.520 --> 0:33:10.160
<v Speaker 3>her no, Where are your people from? She says me,

0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:12.680
<v Speaker 3>Dad's from County Cork. If that's what you're after, you

0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.920
<v Speaker 3>tell her. She's silent. You can hear a clock ticking

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:20.440
<v Speaker 3>in a room down the hall. Is your father, Seamus Sullivan?

0:33:20.640 --> 0:33:24.520
<v Speaker 3>She asks why? You respond, I think you know why

0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:27.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm asking you go. Does he know you're here? She

0:33:28.120 --> 0:33:31.760
<v Speaker 3>asks you? Tell her no. She stares some more. The

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:35.400
<v Speaker 3>clock keeps ticking. Get out, she tells you in the

0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:39.160
<v Speaker 3>harshest tone. Get out now. You turn and race down

0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:41.120
<v Speaker 3>the stairs two at a time. You make it to

0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:43.640
<v Speaker 3>the front door, and fling yourself out onto the street.

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:48.000
<v Speaker 3>The sunshine blinds you momentarily. You run down Clinton, bobbing

0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:51.600
<v Speaker 3>and leaving between people crossing Broadway until you reach South Street,

0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:55.320
<v Speaker 3>right by Peer thirty six. You slam into a police officer,

0:33:55.400 --> 0:33:57.880
<v Speaker 3>a detective. He looks down at you. You look up

0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:01.240
<v Speaker 3>at him. She's on to us that you say, your

0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:03.800
<v Speaker 3>father looks to the sky and then turns and spits

0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:07.240
<v Speaker 3>on the ground. He sighs. Well, we gave it a shot,

0:34:07.320 --> 0:34:10.680
<v Speaker 3>he says. Meanwhile, back at the school, Mom Mandelbaum is

0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:13.800
<v Speaker 3>quickly closing up shop, kicking her pupils out into the street,

0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:16.600
<v Speaker 3>as if this school never existed in the first place.

0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:19.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I want to go to crime school for kids,

0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:22.839
<v Speaker 2>so zaren, I'd love that Seamus Sullivan was a copy.

0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:26.400
<v Speaker 3>So there's reason to believe it didn't actually exist in

0:34:26.440 --> 0:34:29.680
<v Speaker 3>the first place. So for years, decades, more than a century,

0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:32.879
<v Speaker 3>it was understood that ma ran a school for young

0:34:32.920 --> 0:34:35.359
<v Speaker 3>criminals at Clinton and Grand in the Lower east Side.

0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:38.640
<v Speaker 3>School Well, no, and then she shut it down. And

0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:42.040
<v Speaker 3>then it was also widely understood that she shut it

0:34:42.080 --> 0:34:44.360
<v Speaker 3>down when she discovered that the son of a cop

0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:48.000
<v Speaker 3>had enrolled. Oh and so I didn't make that part

0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:51.200
<v Speaker 3>of it. Yeah, but then that Marglite Fox wrote in

0:34:51.239 --> 0:34:54.520
<v Speaker 3>her book that her research determined it was an urban legend.

0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:58.919
<v Speaker 3>That's a buzzkill and like Fox Mulder, I want to believe.

0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:01.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm right there with you, Fox. And also it seems

0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:02.719
<v Speaker 2>like that'd be something that she would do.

0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:06.640
<v Speaker 3>And then then like a cop sends his kid in

0:35:06.760 --> 0:35:09.880
<v Speaker 3>to like infiltrate. Yeah, I love it. Let's pause for ads,

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:12.160
<v Speaker 3>and I'm going to pick your pockets and when we

0:35:12.200 --> 0:35:34.320
<v Speaker 3>come back more Ma, Ma mandlebam.

0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:36.919
<v Speaker 2>How you enjoying my pocket? Lint? I saw you dry

0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:40.440
<v Speaker 2>it and lint I got lint empty my pockets in

0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:42.680
<v Speaker 2>anticipation of this, I'm.

0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:47.680
<v Speaker 3>Not very good, Ma. Ruler of a criminal empire, Queen

0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:53.359
<v Speaker 3>the Empress. As her power increased, she expanded into financing

0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:56.880
<v Speaker 3>large scale criminal ventures. I was wondering, Yeah, stuff like

0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:02.280
<v Speaker 3>bank robberies, really elaborate burglaries. One of her most notable

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:05.839
<v Speaker 3>crimes that was connected to her whole network happened in

0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 3>eighteen sixty nine when thieves broke into New York City's

0:36:10.680 --> 0:36:14.160
<v Speaker 3>Ocean National Bank and stole around eight hundred thousand dollars.

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:17.359
<v Speaker 3>Adam Worth was in on that one talked about that

0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:20.200
<v Speaker 3>and so the robbery like it took months of prep.

0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:24.760
<v Speaker 3>Remember a shell company rented office space beneath the bank.

0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:29.040
<v Speaker 3>They cut through that ceiling using specially designed tools. At

0:36:29.040 --> 0:36:31.560
<v Speaker 3>the time, it was considered the largest bank burglary in

0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:36.000
<v Speaker 3>American history. And so for about like three decades, her

0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:40.239
<v Speaker 3>organization operated with just freedom. They just did whatever. Yeah,

0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:44.719
<v Speaker 3>that incredible. So law enforcement officials they knew at the

0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:47.040
<v Speaker 3>time that like this goes all across the country. She

0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:48.160
<v Speaker 3>wasn't just in New York.

0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, have Chicago connections. Yeah, straight out.

0:36:51.120 --> 0:36:54.640
<v Speaker 3>If a major silk robbery happened in any other city

0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:59.040
<v Speaker 3>and like the criminals were associated with her organization, she

0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.759
<v Speaker 3>would be the first like write a first refusal for

0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:05.360
<v Speaker 3>that silk, Like that was how it went. And she

0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:07.839
<v Speaker 3>also but she had this like public image of this

0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:12.560
<v Speaker 3>respectable member of the community. She gave tons of money,

0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:17.200
<v Speaker 3>she donated to her synagogue. She was friendly with her neighbors.

0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:21.279
<v Speaker 3>She came across Like if you weren't aware, just is

0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:23.840
<v Speaker 3>this really like rich, respectable woman?

0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:27.120
<v Speaker 2>Was she did she have like a pretend husband or

0:37:27.120 --> 0:37:29.840
<v Speaker 2>an even wolf. Yeah, but he was older, so I

0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:31.280
<v Speaker 2>don't know if he's still alive.

0:37:31.360 --> 0:37:33.640
<v Speaker 3>He's still there and he didn't have to keep pedlins.

0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:36.360
<v Speaker 2>So like.

0:37:38.560 --> 0:37:42.920
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, and behind this facade, you know, she's organizing

0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:47.320
<v Speaker 3>thefts and burglaries and luxury merchandise all across the United States.

0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:51.720
<v Speaker 3>She had this lavish lifestyle. She wore really elaborate silk

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:54.640
<v Speaker 3>dresses and a sealskin cape, and she wore a ton

0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:58.120
<v Speaker 3>of jewelry. There were some that say that she wore

0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:02.040
<v Speaker 3>like basically a million dollars like in modern dollars worth

0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:05.240
<v Speaker 3>of jewelry around just every day, like very Elizabeth Taylor.

0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Wow, And you're nobody's gonna rob her.

0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:12.319
<v Speaker 3>So it's exactly who would even dare. As her business expanded,

0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:16.680
<v Speaker 3>she bought warehouses in order to store all the stolen goods.

0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:18.600
<v Speaker 2>And I'm sure that like you know, I know that

0:38:18.640 --> 0:38:21.120
<v Speaker 2>she's primarily in non violent crimes, but I bet you

0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:21.800
<v Speaker 2>knows some hitters.

0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:24.919
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, she has. She has to do, yeah, because all

0:38:25.000 --> 0:38:28.920
<v Speaker 3>of the like her coterie of bad men, they're on

0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:32.200
<v Speaker 3>the fringes and they're connected to other like violent groups.

0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:35.880
<v Speaker 2>My brother does that do work exactly.

0:38:36.800 --> 0:38:40.920
<v Speaker 3>So in the mid eighteen eighties, an estimated ten million

0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:45.120
<v Speaker 3>dollars worth of luxury merchandise had been handled through her

0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:47.960
<v Speaker 3>Lower East Side shop get it. It was one of

0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:50.759
<v Speaker 3>the central hubs of organized crime in the city, and

0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:54.759
<v Speaker 3>so her long run of success, though, finally came to

0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:59.280
<v Speaker 3>an end. In eighteen eighty four, this newly appointed District

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:02.400
<v Speaker 3>Attorney of New York City, Peter Olney, he decided to

0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:03.280
<v Speaker 3>go after her.

0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Her specifically trendy, not just criminals like her, but her specifically.

0:39:07.680 --> 0:39:10.919
<v Speaker 3>But because local police, like everyone, kind of knew they'd

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:18.320
<v Speaker 3>been compromised, right, so only hired the Pinkerton National Detective

0:39:18.360 --> 0:39:23.480
<v Speaker 3>Agency those joy Kills to conduct a sting operation. And

0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:28.360
<v Speaker 3>there was this one Pinkerton agent, Gustav Frank. He infiltrated

0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:32.000
<v Speaker 3>the network. He posed as a criminal named Stein, and

0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:36.759
<v Speaker 3>he exploited her tendency to help thieves out, particularly those

0:39:36.800 --> 0:39:39.879
<v Speaker 3>of German Jewish background like she was. And that's how

0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.560
<v Speaker 3>he got into like the inner circle. He wormed his

0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.880
<v Speaker 3>way in. So on the morning of July twenty second,

0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.960
<v Speaker 3>eighteen eighty four, Frank and three other Pinkerton's raided the

0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:54.440
<v Speaker 3>shop and they uncovered a ton of stolen property up

0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:58.680
<v Speaker 3>and there's all that's in there, like jewelry, watches, silverware,

0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:04.480
<v Speaker 3>loose diamonds, all sorts of stuff, microwaves, color TVs, GPS systems,

0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:08.480
<v Speaker 3>air purifs, bevel toaster ovens, you know or not I

0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:08.840
<v Speaker 3>don't know.

0:40:09.280 --> 0:40:11.200
<v Speaker 2>It was just like a smoking gun collection.

0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:15.120
<v Speaker 3>Completely completely. They found all the hidden rooms, antique furniture

0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:18.680
<v Speaker 3>trunks filled with cashmere shawls, lace curtains, bolts of silk.

0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:22.600
<v Speaker 3>They had melted down stolen jewelry into just gold bars,

0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:26.759
<v Speaker 3>and so they found those. They went into her bedroom

0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:29.400
<v Speaker 3>and they found the melting pots and the scales used

0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:32.759
<v Speaker 3>to do all this stuff when they arrested her. So

0:40:32.800 --> 0:40:35.240
<v Speaker 3>the detectives arrest her and they try and holler away,

0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:38.520
<v Speaker 3>and one's like, you know what, just admit, defeat and cooperate.

0:40:39.480 --> 0:40:42.319
<v Speaker 3>She like stops and turns and looks at him and

0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:44.800
<v Speaker 3>then just socks him in the kiss or just decks it.

0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:47.440
<v Speaker 2>So I know.

0:40:49.160 --> 0:40:53.680
<v Speaker 3>Exactly her son, Julius, who had been involved in the operations.

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:58.080
<v Speaker 3>He got arrested alongside Julius. It's a great name. One

0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:01.360
<v Speaker 3>of her daughters was married to in some reports married

0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.360
<v Speaker 3>to a detective and others to a politician. It depends

0:41:04.360 --> 0:41:07.400
<v Speaker 3>on which newspaper you read. Why not both write, But

0:41:07.719 --> 0:41:09.640
<v Speaker 3>like she was supposed to be attached to all the

0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:13.200
<v Speaker 3>family business as well, and so like this is just

0:41:13.280 --> 0:41:15.880
<v Speaker 3>the press loves this. Of course, It's all over the place,

0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:20.080
<v Speaker 3>and so she already had prominent defense attorneys like on

0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:25.719
<v Speaker 3>retainer William F. Howe and Abraham Hummel, and they were

0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:29.480
<v Speaker 3>well known for like representing the Underworld figures in the city.

0:41:29.719 --> 0:41:30.680
<v Speaker 2>So they're mob lawyers.

0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:36.920
<v Speaker 3>Yes. They tried to undermine the credibility of Frank the

0:41:37.040 --> 0:41:38.560
<v Speaker 3>Pinkerton detective.

0:41:38.280 --> 0:41:40.160
<v Speaker 2>Like the roy Cohnes of the nineteenth century.

0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:43.120
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and so they're like, you know, that Pinkerton detective,

0:41:43.200 --> 0:41:45.880
<v Speaker 3>I think he actually was a criminal, Like he's not

0:41:45.920 --> 0:41:48.080
<v Speaker 3>a Pinkerton, you know, so they're just making him out

0:41:48.239 --> 0:41:51.799
<v Speaker 3>he was. He was, you know, taking his own share

0:41:51.840 --> 0:41:52.280
<v Speaker 3>of stuff.

0:41:52.360 --> 0:41:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:56.080
<v Speaker 3>Bail was set at ten grand, which was just an

0:41:56.120 --> 0:42:00.000
<v Speaker 3>incredible amount then, and that was like for five different

0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:02.000
<v Speaker 3>charges that she was facing.

0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Like receiving stolen goods, that kind of stuff.

0:42:03.400 --> 0:42:06.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So bail gets paid, She goes home and the

0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:10.000
<v Speaker 3>Pinkertons are keeping an eye on her under total surveillance.

0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:14.240
<v Speaker 3>December fourth, eighteen eighty four, though she's scheduled to appear

0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:20.960
<v Speaker 3>in court, she vanishes. She used a body double to

0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:26.560
<v Speaker 3>slip the Pinkertons, got on a train, fled to Canada,

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 3>and took a million dollars worth of stolen goods with her.

0:42:29.840 --> 0:42:31.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about you, but I've always wanted to

0:42:31.760 --> 0:42:33.960
<v Speaker 2>have cause to use a body double right to sneak

0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:34.560
<v Speaker 2>to Canada.

0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:40.360
<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's like girls dream. So remember that thief

0:42:40.440 --> 0:42:44.759
<v Speaker 3>Molly Holbrook, who, Yeah, she was working in all like

0:42:44.880 --> 0:42:48.239
<v Speaker 3>up and down the Northeast as a pickpocket. She got

0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:52.400
<v Speaker 3>busted a bunch of times in Boston. Boston, Yeah, but

0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:55.360
<v Speaker 3>either she would jump bail or she'd get off thanks

0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:59.640
<v Speaker 3>to her fancy lawyers, how and humble, which MA would

0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:02.880
<v Speaker 3>organize her. But in eighteen eighty four she got arrested

0:43:02.920 --> 0:43:06.640
<v Speaker 3>and got five years at the prison on Blackwell's Island.

0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:11.040
<v Speaker 3>And she begged MA, like, please send the lawyers, send lawyers,

0:43:11.080 --> 0:43:15.600
<v Speaker 3>guns and money. MA was like enough, I can't with you.

0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:19.920
<v Speaker 3>So Mollie decided to turn state's evidence on Ma. Oh no,

0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:22.440
<v Speaker 3>And that's one of the reasons why MA ran off

0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:25.040
<v Speaker 3>to Canada. That's one of the reasons the DA was like, oh,

0:43:25.080 --> 0:43:28.640
<v Speaker 3>I can go after this. MA knew that they had

0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:32.359
<v Speaker 3>an insider to testify against her, so she goes off

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:36.120
<v Speaker 3>to Ontario. By the following day, newspapers had traced her

0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:39.239
<v Speaker 3>to Canada like they figured it out. But because no

0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:43.280
<v Speaker 3>extradition treaty existed between the US and Canada at that time.

0:43:44.000 --> 0:43:47.120
<v Speaker 3>She could stay there without being returned for trial, so

0:43:47.840 --> 0:43:50.480
<v Speaker 3>she didn't really want to leave New York, just like

0:43:50.840 --> 0:43:54.279
<v Speaker 3>ri Em saying, leaving New York never easy. I saw

0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:56.520
<v Speaker 3>the light fading out. That's a great song, by the way,

0:43:56.560 --> 0:44:00.759
<v Speaker 3>sare thank you, thank you for bringing that up. In Toronto,

0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:05.760
<v Speaker 3>she was in Hamilton, Ontario, just outside, just outside of Toronto,

0:44:06.600 --> 0:44:09.319
<v Speaker 3>so she was forced to stay there, and she saw

0:44:09.360 --> 0:44:12.319
<v Speaker 3>this exile as kind of like a living death, like

0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:15.880
<v Speaker 3>New York was everything for her. But there she is Hamilton, Ontario.

0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:20.720
<v Speaker 3>She opened a business known as Ladies and Children's Underwear

0:44:20.760 --> 0:44:27.840
<v Speaker 3>Emporium and Andizars Unpants sure right, so even there, like

0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:31.839
<v Speaker 3>it was rumored that she was fencing and bribing officials.

0:44:31.960 --> 0:44:34.879
<v Speaker 3>She worked behind the store counter though, and she went

0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:37.959
<v Speaker 3>to services at the local synagogue. She kept a really

0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:41.640
<v Speaker 3>close relationship with her children. One of her sons opened

0:44:41.680 --> 0:44:45.120
<v Speaker 3>a tobacconist shop right down the street. A daughter of

0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:49.200
<v Speaker 3>hers frequently traveled from New York carrying letters and packages,

0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:53.080
<v Speaker 3>and people like also kind of thought that maybe she

0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 3>was bringing up stolen merchandise because she always, like Moss

0:44:57.840 --> 0:45:01.000
<v Speaker 3>still had really low price in her shop, and the

0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:04.560
<v Speaker 3>daughter always came in with a lot of luggage, but

0:45:04.600 --> 0:45:08.200
<v Speaker 3>they could never prove anything. In eighteen eighty five, tragedy

0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:11.480
<v Speaker 3>struck her youngest daughter, Annie died in New York. She

0:45:11.560 --> 0:45:14.759
<v Speaker 3>was only eighteen. It was pneumonia. So mom was like,

0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:18.080
<v Speaker 3>I have to see her one last time. She was bereft.

0:45:18.200 --> 0:45:20.680
<v Speaker 3>This was her baby. So she snuck back to.

0:45:20.680 --> 0:45:23.359
<v Speaker 2>New York for the.

0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:25.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, she put on a disguise and I'm really hoping

0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:28.239
<v Speaker 3>for great wig play. Then she got into her old

0:45:28.239 --> 0:45:30.960
<v Speaker 3>house by using one of the passages her crooks would

0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:34.960
<v Speaker 3>use to get in undetected. She managed to view the body,

0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:38.279
<v Speaker 3>pay her respects before leaving again for Canada, and she

0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:41.439
<v Speaker 3>made it back without getting arrested. Yes, I was hoping

0:45:41.680 --> 0:45:46.000
<v Speaker 3>she was able to do it. So Fredrika Marmandelbaum died

0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:49.520
<v Speaker 3>in Canada in eighteen ninety four. Her body was transported

0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:52.799
<v Speaker 3>back to New York for burial in the same cemetery

0:45:52.800 --> 0:45:56.360
<v Speaker 3>where her daughter was laid to rest. And even in death,

0:45:57.200 --> 0:46:00.680
<v Speaker 3>she was this figure of fascination. So like the newspapers

0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:04.760
<v Speaker 3>had all this wild speculation about the funeral and the burial.

0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:07.960
<v Speaker 3>Some thought that she faked her death and the coffin

0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:10.759
<v Speaker 3>was just like full of rocks that she was out

0:46:10.760 --> 0:46:14.680
<v Speaker 3>living it up somewhere, and others, like other newspaper reports

0:46:14.719 --> 0:46:16.759
<v Speaker 3>talked about how like there was this huge crowd and

0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:21.240
<v Speaker 3>everyone got pickpocketed, and so at the time of her death,

0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:24.719
<v Speaker 3>she had a fortune that was estimated at around a

0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:27.560
<v Speaker 3>million dollars, which is like thirty seven point eight million

0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:31.040
<v Speaker 3>dollars today. So zaren, what's your ridiculous takeaway?

0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:34.640
<v Speaker 2>I am so impressed with marm Mandelbomb. I mean, like

0:46:34.719 --> 0:46:36.520
<v Speaker 2>for a lot of reasons. I like her panacha, like

0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:38.600
<v Speaker 2>her style, like the way she does it. But also

0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:40.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's the classic thing of like, oh, you

0:46:40.520 --> 0:46:42.480
<v Speaker 2>gotta be like twice as good. She's like, I got

0:46:42.480 --> 0:46:45.000
<v Speaker 2>to be three times as good to be able to

0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:47.080
<v Speaker 2>be on the same par because you know, I'm an immigrant,

0:46:47.160 --> 0:46:50.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm a woman in the nineteenth century America and Canada.

0:46:50.840 --> 0:46:53.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean like I'm a Jewish woman. I'm six feet tall,

0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.520
<v Speaker 2>and I stand out. And then like everything she's like

0:46:56.560 --> 0:46:58.160
<v Speaker 2>so like and the fact that she got to live

0:46:58.320 --> 0:47:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and lived so well and took care so many people.

0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:04.160
<v Speaker 2>She seems to be like the type of criminal that

0:47:04.239 --> 0:47:06.520
<v Speaker 2>I always wanted to be around back when I did crime,

0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:09.160
<v Speaker 2>which is hard to find. You know, like people have

0:47:09.200 --> 0:47:11.359
<v Speaker 2>gotten lazy about how they do crime now. They don't

0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:13.600
<v Speaker 2>understand it's a community thing. Like if you really want

0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:15.880
<v Speaker 2>to be successful, you've got to have a network. You

0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:18.200
<v Speaker 2>gotta have respect, You got to have people who owe

0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:21.360
<v Speaker 2>you in a way that is actually meaningful, you know,

0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:23.200
<v Speaker 2>not just like you know, otherwise you're gonna get the're

0:47:23.200 --> 0:47:24.200
<v Speaker 2>gonna turn state's evidence.

0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:26.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, we're talking about old school mafia, and

0:47:27.000 --> 0:47:30.280
<v Speaker 3>you see it as like that's when the police wouldn't

0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:33.240
<v Speaker 3>protect a community. They had to stuff up and protect.

0:47:33.480 --> 0:47:34.560
<v Speaker 2>You want the old ladies to be able to go

0:47:34.560 --> 0:47:34.800
<v Speaker 2>out of it.

0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:37.279
<v Speaker 3>It's gonna cost you a little something, but like that's

0:47:37.360 --> 0:47:39.040
<v Speaker 3>the taxes you pay basically.

0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:40.359
<v Speaker 2>And it's also I mean that is kind of how

0:47:40.360 --> 0:47:44.239
<v Speaker 2>society works anyway. I mean, like you're paying stuff already

0:47:44.280 --> 0:47:46.359
<v Speaker 2>all the time for these same things. You're just doing

0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:48.200
<v Speaker 2>it to a person who's like a little bit more

0:47:48.280 --> 0:47:51.120
<v Speaker 2>familiar with violence crime, you know. But it's like it's

0:47:51.160 --> 0:47:54.600
<v Speaker 2>not that much different, right, right, and it's more effective,

0:47:54.680 --> 0:47:58.399
<v Speaker 2>you know. It's like I'm being real anyway, what's yours?

0:47:58.400 --> 0:48:02.240
<v Speaker 3>Elizabeth my ridiculus takeaway is that you know, she didn't

0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:06.960
<v Speaker 3>From what I understand, she wasn't hurting anybody, you know.

0:48:07.040 --> 0:48:09.759
<v Speaker 3>And I mean it's like, there are just costs of

0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:13.359
<v Speaker 3>doing business when you're dealing with luxury goods. I suppose so,

0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:16.640
<v Speaker 3>And I think that she helped more than she heard.

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:22.919
<v Speaker 3>You know what insurance is for exactly everything for each other.

0:48:23.239 --> 0:48:27.759
<v Speaker 3>It just keeps she circulating money into the community. But

0:48:27.800 --> 0:48:30.000
<v Speaker 3>I'll tell you what I need to talk back.

0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:40.759
<v Speaker 2>That's my takeaway. Oh my god, I.

0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:49.239
<v Speaker 5>Let Oh my goodness, I just got done listening to

0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:53.239
<v Speaker 5>the ten cent Beer Night. I have not laughed this

0:48:53.440 --> 0:48:57.000
<v Speaker 5>hard any of your episodes. There was another one. I

0:48:57.000 --> 0:48:59.440
<v Speaker 5>can't remember what it was, but this one was hilarious.

0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:02.720
<v Speaker 5>Somebody needs to make a movie or a short film

0:49:02.760 --> 0:49:03.160
<v Speaker 5>about it.

0:49:03.200 --> 0:49:07.840
<v Speaker 3>Would be hilarious things. Guys. That's a really good idea.

0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:08.960
<v Speaker 3>Like a documentary.

0:49:09.200 --> 0:49:11.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think there actually are there. Yeah, I think

0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:13.400
<v Speaker 2>there are. I think there's even a documentary. I think

0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:16.400
<v Speaker 2>there's an animated version of that story that's like on

0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:20.160
<v Speaker 2>YouTube or whatever. I think you can find people. I mean,

0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:23.360
<v Speaker 2>we've been asked to tell that story to other people,

0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:26.239
<v Speaker 2>Like just in general, it's it is a very much

0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:28.319
<v Speaker 2>a not a known commodity. But I mean it's like

0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:29.560
<v Speaker 2>some people are like this one.

0:49:30.280 --> 0:49:32.000
<v Speaker 3>You're told it the funniest way.

0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:34.279
<v Speaker 2>We did, you did did?

0:49:34.880 --> 0:49:37.560
<v Speaker 3>That's it for today. You can find us online at

0:49:37.600 --> 0:49:40.520
<v Speaker 3>ridiculous Crime dot com. We're also at Ridiculous Crime on

0:49:40.560 --> 0:49:44.920
<v Speaker 3>Blue Sky and Instagram or on YouTube a Ridiculous Crime pod.

0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:48.600
<v Speaker 3>You can email us at ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com,

0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:50.960
<v Speaker 3>and you can please please please leave a talk back

0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:59.360
<v Speaker 3>on the free iHeart app reach out. Ridiculous Crime is

0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.720
<v Speaker 3>hosted by Zabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and edited

0:50:02.760 --> 0:50:06.040
<v Speaker 3>by Pau Houston, head of the Rude Duke Gang, starring

0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:11.160
<v Speaker 3>Emily's Rutger as Judith. Research is by notorious pickpocket Marissa

0:50:11.160 --> 0:50:14.839
<v Speaker 3>Brown and professor of safe cracking Jabbari Davis. The theme

0:50:14.880 --> 0:50:17.160
<v Speaker 3>song is by Guy who keeps his Wallet in his

0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:20.160
<v Speaker 3>back pocket Thomas Lee and Guy who Can't find his

0:50:20.239 --> 0:50:23.680
<v Speaker 3>Wallet Travis Dutton. Post wardrobe is provided by Botany five

0:50:23.760 --> 0:50:28.279
<v Speaker 3>hundred guests, hair and makeup by Sparkleshot Mister Andre. Executive

0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:33.200
<v Speaker 3>producers are Pinkerton, Pickpocket poachers Ben Bolin and Noel Brown.

0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:42.480
<v Speaker 2>P Dicks Crime Say It one More Time.

0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:44.120
<v Speaker 3>Geequus Crime.

0:50:45.160 --> 0:50:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four more podcasts

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<v Speaker 1>My heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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<v Speaker 1>wherever you listen to your favorite shows.