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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Zaren Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: How are you doing pretty darn good? How are Ooh?

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Speaker 2: I'd be good.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: I do oh nice?

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Speaker 2: Based on something you told me about. Okay, you were

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Speaker 2: telling me the other day about George Jones. Yeah, and his

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Speaker 2: last wife, Nancy Sepulvado. Yes, you got me curious, right.

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Speaker 2: I went looking into their relationship because it's a well

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Speaker 2: told tale.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And they were married on March fourth, nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 2: which I think you may have touched upon, but which

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Speaker 2: is right right around now. So we're just looking at

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Speaker 2: an anniversary for them. Sure, congratulations to the couple. But

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Speaker 2: one thing I thought was really interesting because at this

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Speaker 2: point George is trying to be like clean and sober.

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Speaker 2: Do you know where they celebrated where the bride and

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Speaker 2: groom went to toast their nuptials?

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Speaker 3: I do not.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think this might have come up. They went

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Speaker 2: to the local burger king following the wedding ceremony.

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Speaker 3: Did he get one of those paper crowns?

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Speaker 2: What I want to know George Jones and crown? It's

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, so there's still selling.

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Speaker 3: They each wore one, you know, they were they.

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Speaker 2: Go baby past the kitchen from a fries and I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna toast this whopper to you.

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Speaker 3: Burger king, burger king. That's burger king reception. That's the

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Speaker 3: reception was, that's beautiful.

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Speaker 2: I just yeah, you know, there you go.

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Speaker 3: I want to have it their way, really ridiculous. It's amazing.

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Speaker 3: I did not know that. Do you want to know

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Speaker 3: what else is Ridiculous Crime School? This is Ridiculous Crime

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Speaker 3: a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists, and cons.

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Speaker 3: It's always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent ridiculous. Am right? I know I am. Do you

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Speaker 3: remember a while back when we met up with the

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Speaker 3: fellows from Ridiculous History, Oh yeah, Ben and had an

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Speaker 3: all to play a few games of twenty questions.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: That was two crossover episodes of Ridiculous Chaos. We had

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Speaker 3: to guess historical figures who pulled a flex or something

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Speaker 3: like that. Because I'm a total jerk, I had everyone

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Speaker 3: guessing about dogs, Bummer and Lazarus and Norton's pups, Cia

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Speaker 3: operative Ben Bolin. He had us guessing about a certain

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Speaker 3: historical crimer, and because he believes in women's lib he

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Speaker 3: picked a lady crimer. Yeah, neither of us had ever

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Speaker 3: heard of her at the time, You and I because

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Speaker 3: we're poorly educated, totally I can barely reach. So I

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Speaker 3: just fake it. Yeah, fake it till you make it.

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Speaker 3: I never learned my numbers.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it is hummed to myself while I'm reading, like,

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Speaker 2: oh god, he's reading. You can tell he's making noises exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Then they're like that looks like someone reading. That's what

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Speaker 3: I always think. So I figured, after all this time,

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Speaker 3: I should investigate this fine woman and tell you about her.

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Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, he did a deep dive.

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Speaker 3: I did a deep dive. Let's learn about Fredrika Mandelbaumb.

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Speaker 2: Freddy step On Down.

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Speaker 3: Aka ma Or marm mandelbarm arm Mandelbaumb. So now I

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Speaker 3: mentioned her on my own a little while back when

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Speaker 3: I was telling you about the criminal Adam Worth. He

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Speaker 3: worked with marm Or ma Mandelbaumb. She's the one who

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Speaker 3: took him from petty crimes to bank robbery, and he's

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Speaker 3: the guy that went on to steal Gainsborough's portrait of Georgiana,

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Speaker 3: Duchess of Devonshire. Ah right, so he was a real

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Speaker 3: one and he learned from the realist. Yeah. Mandelbaum was

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Speaker 3: called the Queen of the Fences. Nice and she had

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Speaker 3: a career that lasted more than thirty years. She was

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Speaker 3: a force to be reckoned with.

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Speaker 2: Well, she's the queen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So she was about six feet tall. Oh wow,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: Big statuesque woman, big.

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Speaker 3: Hefty gal, round apple cheeks. She had huge, bushy eyebrow.

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Speaker 2: Oh heck.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she took up space and did not give a damn.

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Speaker 2: I apologetic.

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Speaker 3: I love it, love it. So, as you know, newspaper

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Speaker 3: folks back in the eighteen hundreds were unkind.

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Speaker 2: Yo, God were they.

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Speaker 3: So are modern writerly types.

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Speaker 2: Yes, still holding true to the traditions.

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Speaker 3: Margalite Fox wrote a book called The Talented Missus Mandelbaum

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Speaker 3: that came out in twenty twenty four. Great book. In it,

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Speaker 3: she describes ma as looking like quote, the product of

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Speaker 3: a congenial liaison between a dumpling and a mountain. Whoa,

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Speaker 3: And I find that totally unnecessary.

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Speaker 2: Totally I don't even find it that created no. So missus,

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Speaker 2: Now I got a picture of dumpling in a mountain

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Speaker 2: getting busy marghlite.

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Speaker 3: I could easily pull pictures of you and go at it,

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Speaker 3: but I am a lady. We don't do the roast,

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Speaker 3: and I'll pretend I'm a gentleman anyway.

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Speaker 2: Ma.

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Speaker 3: So Fredrika Henriette August Weissner was born on March twenty eighth,

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Speaker 3: eighteen twenty five, in Castle, a city in what is now.

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Speaker 2: Central German totally cost German.

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Speaker 3: So. She was one of seven children born to Samuel

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Speaker 3: Abraham Weissner and his wife Rohell. In eighteen forty eight,

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Speaker 3: she married Wolf Israel.

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Speaker 2: Mandelbamb Wolf Mandelbomb Wolf.

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Speaker 3: He was a traveling peddler. He was a little bit older.

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Speaker 3: His name was Wolf, so he was a sexy bad

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Speaker 3: boy of rock and roll. Of course, he rode a

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Speaker 3: horse drawn motorcycle, kind of like how the Amish have

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Speaker 3: horse drawn helicopters. So Wolf Wolf married Fredrika.

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Speaker 2: I'm still having.

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Speaker 3: Like I can do all the sound effects for it,

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Speaker 3: and then I'm just gonna pretend like I'm reading.

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Speaker 2: Wolf. That's a bad spot to be beyond two horses

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Speaker 2: all low.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, do you think he had like the what

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Speaker 3: are they called the ape hanger?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, get that?

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Speaker 2: That would be amazing like.

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Speaker 3: A sledge in a real sled going to the Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and then the like on the ends of the handlebars

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Speaker 3: that in bright colors, like a kid's bike, sparkly. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: white white handlebar rips. Anyway, Okay, so Wolf married for Drika,

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Speaker 3: then he moved to the US in search of a

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Speaker 3: better life with her. Yeah, you know, but he made

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Speaker 3: sure to put her in the family way first.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so he was an anchor Wolf.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, they should have had the anchor baby.

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Speaker 2: He went first as the anchor I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, he kind of flipped it.

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Speaker 3: So two years after he took off in eighteen fifty,

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Speaker 3: she and their daughter joined Wolf in New York City

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Speaker 3: and they settled in Manhattan's Lower East Side in the

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Speaker 3: German immigrant neighborhood known as This is a Weird One.

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Speaker 2: Little Germany did not see that coming.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can say that in German, but like, I

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Speaker 3: don't do that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh you don't say little Germany.

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Speaker 3: I know it's the little Germany. That's how you say

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Speaker 3: it in Germany. It is teane Deutsch Lemn Okay, but

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to mess it up.

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Speaker 2: Look at me, having German friends for parents, by friends

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Speaker 2: having German parents.

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Speaker 3: So this neighborhood was like super high density.

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Speaker 2: Okay, jam packed with new immigrants.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they had full dreams, empty pocketbooks. The conditions

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Speaker 3: were terrible, yes, yeah, so the buildings weren't maintained in

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Speaker 3: the least totally falling apart. There's like no lighting.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing your neighbors coughing on.

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Speaker 3: Some of the windows didn't open, there's like no cross

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Speaker 3: A lot of times they'd have like more than twenty

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Speaker 3: families shoved into one single small building.

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Speaker 2: This is like why we have health departments now.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, no indoor plumbing. You go down to the street,

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Speaker 3: pump water into a bucket, carry it back the stairs.

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Speaker 3: And the toilets were smelly outhouses in the back alley. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so a bunch of people sharing one.

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Speaker 2: And there's also just horse droppings all over the street.

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Speaker 2: So it's smelly in the front and the back.

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Speaker 3: Honey, it is poop city.

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Speaker 2: I don't think people get how much there was.

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Speaker 3: No, there's so much.

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Speaker 2: It's like twenty years ago, so much poop people windows.

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Speaker 3: You were eating big meals.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, big sloppy meals, lot of meat, meals. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: all right, and like I'm getting you meats like liver.

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Speaker 3: Sausages. Yeah, oh yeah, buddy, I'm glad I don't have

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Speaker 3: the time.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad it's not close to lunchtime.

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Speaker 3: So Wolf, if he stayed on the same career path

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Speaker 3: in the States as he had been doing back in Germany.

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Speaker 2: Okay, pedlar pedlar.

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Speaker 3: So he went around selling things, a little bits and bobs.

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Speaker 2: They dropped the blanket, got all the stuff, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Little card, all with a bell or something. And so

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Speaker 3: it was pretty widely known that pedlars often worked on

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Speaker 3: the wrong side of the law.

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Speaker 2: Well, they got to get the stuff somewhere, Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but there was Wolf selling crap on the up

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Speaker 3: and up. He's just like legit, Yeah, he just got

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Speaker 3: deal crap.

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Speaker 2: So pretty I'm a ninety nine cent store.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly. Pretty soon they need money, So for Drika

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Speaker 3: starts peddling. She had to work. They're starving. So she

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Speaker 3: goes door to door in the Lower east Side selling lace.

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Speaker 2: Oh nice, you can get a good, pretty petty for that.

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Speaker 3: Pretty soon they had four kids, but not four times

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Speaker 3: the income. Oh ue draw Yeah, So for Drika she

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Speaker 3: realizes like, okay, I am not making enough money selling

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Speaker 3: lace door to door, and I don't have a lot

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Speaker 3: of opportunities for advancement because like, there are only certain

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Speaker 3: jobs that a working class woman could have in those Yeah,

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Speaker 3: laundry and that's like backbreaking work, crowded, feed chemical, A

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Speaker 3: lot of people are doing it. She could be a maid,

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Speaker 3: but they made almost nothing, and they usually didn't have

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Speaker 3: four kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeahs younger, so they can beholden to that family, right

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Speaker 2: and fai home and feed.

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Speaker 3: You could be a prostitute, but she was a married woman.

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Speaker 3: She didn't want to do that. It was just a

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Speaker 3: bridge too far. So she kept pedling. But she looked

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Speaker 3: around and she saw that some of the people were

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Speaker 3: peddling ill gotten goods, and she had no problem with that.

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Speaker 3: So she had this great personality. People loved her and

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Speaker 3: she made connections. So she began her criminal career by

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Speaker 3: buying and then reselling stuff that had been scavenged or stolen. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: street thieves known as groaners and files brought her stuff

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Speaker 3: to her push carts. So groaners were thieves who went

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Speaker 3: to revivals and charity sermons and they'd rob the congregation

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Speaker 3: of their watches and purses and like switch out bad

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Speaker 3: hats for like they had a crappy hat and they'd

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Speaker 3: see a nice one swap them. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 3: They stole prayer.

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Speaker 2: Books, anything that's not nailed down.

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Speaker 3: It's like the lowest behavior in church of it. Bottom

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Speaker 3: of the barrel files files were basically pickpockets. They worked

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Speaker 3: with someone called a bulker and the bulker would bump

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Speaker 3: into were like stop the mark, the file would slip

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Speaker 3: in steal whatever valuable they could try, right, So, these

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Speaker 3: folks would come to Ma with the stuff that they

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Speaker 3: stall and she'd buy it off from cheap and then

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Speaker 3: flip it. And during this early period, she apprenticed herself

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Speaker 3: to this really well known fence named General Abe Greenthal.

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Speaker 3: He was known as perhaps the best pickpocket in the

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Speaker 3: United States. Really yeah, so she trained with the best.

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Speaker 2: That's why he was the general.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. He was born in what is now Poland in

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Speaker 3: eighteen twenty two. He told everyone, who's German though, he led.

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Speaker 2: This city Thessian Empire.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, so he led a syndicate of Jewish pickpockets

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Speaker 3: who worked nationwide. They did the Bulkan file thing, jostling

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Speaker 3: into victims in crowded places. As like train stations, and

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Speaker 3: the gang that he ran with included most of his

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Speaker 3: family a family.

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Speaker 2: Tradition, gang, family, whatever.

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Speaker 3: So in an article about his passing, The New York

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Speaker 3: Times wrote the quote, all the Greenthal family have turned

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Speaker 3: out to be criminals, the women being shoplifters and the

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Speaker 3: men pickpockets. You know, there's a place for everybody's errand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I never got two hands, might not use them.

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Speaker 3: The General wasn't just an expert pickpocket. He was also

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Speaker 3: a first class fence. And it was under his guidance

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Speaker 3: that Ma learned how to evaluate luxury merchandise. And she

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Speaker 3: learned all the details to look for, like the feel

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Speaker 3: of the fabrics, the weight and touch of metals and gems,

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Speaker 3: the quality manufacturing and craftsmanship that you know makes these

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Speaker 3: things so valuing. Yeah, and she learned how to move

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Speaker 3: stolen goods turn a tidy profit, and she learned to

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Speaker 3: keep the majority of the profit for herself.

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Speaker 2: She's getting good smart.

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Speaker 3: So by the end of the Civil War eighteen sixty five,

253
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Speaker 3: she had tucked enough money away and had enough to

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Speaker 3: open a legitimate looking dry goods store, just a front.

255
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 3: It gave her cover in like assessing luxury textiles and

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Speaker 3: materials things like silk lace, cashmere, and seal skin which

257
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Speaker 3: is called pin seal when it's made into leather, which

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Speaker 3: bums me all the way out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but it was a you know, I was

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Speaker 2: a nice fabric.

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Speaker 3: It was a luxury material. Seal skin and pin seal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot of like oil.

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Speaker 3: Mean Yeah, So mandelbomb suppliers were young thieves. They stole

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Speaker 3: stuff from warehouses, delivery wagons, they go down to.

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Speaker 2: The docks of a truck.

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Speaker 3: Yes, basically she bought their stolen goods at this fraction

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Speaker 3: of a wholesale value, so let's say ten percent, right,

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Speaker 3: So they got it for free. So anything they make

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Speaker 3: is going to make them happy. So like, let's suppose

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Speaker 3: the wholesale value is one hundred dollars, so they get

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Speaker 3: ten bucks. Then she would resell the stuff to her customers,

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Speaker 3: and these were people like tailors or just housewives looking

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Speaker 3: for a deal. She'd charge them more, but still way

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Speaker 3: under the full wholesale value.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, market price is one hundred dollars.

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Speaker 3: For wholesale, I forget even reach tail value.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So if these folks they would have had to pay

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Speaker 3: one hundred wholesale she charges them like sixty Okay, so

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Speaker 3: she's turning a fifty dollars profit out of basically nothing. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the economy was changing in the US at the time.

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Speaker 3: You know, we've got growing industrialization. Cities are growing with

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Speaker 3: like both immigrants and those coming in from the country

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Speaker 3: looking for jobs.

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Speaker 2: You know, these factories are growing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So despite growing wealth inequality as well, there's a

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Speaker 3: growing middle class and they weren't living by such razor margins,

288
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 3: and they wanted nice things too. Sure, so luxury items

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Speaker 3: like cashmere shawls could pull in incredible prices. It costs

290
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Speaker 3: so much. According to Marglite Fox quote, a single cashmere

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Speaker 3: shawl from that time would sell for the equivalent of

292
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Speaker 3: forty five thousand dollars in today's dollars.

293
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, need to pick my jaw back up off

294
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Speaker 2: the floor. Forty five thousand dollars for a piece of

295
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,280
Speaker 2: clothing that is like flimsy.

296
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Speaker 3: At They're not flimsy shawl. You know, I have like

297
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Speaker 3: a fur coat. You know, I have a kashmere problem

298
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Speaker 3: wearing a cashmere sweater.

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Speaker 2: I know you do. But that's like a light thing,

300
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,880
Speaker 2: and I know it's like lace's light. It's also expensive

301
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Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting, but I mean that's not a lot

302
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Speaker 2: of material.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: I love a good Kashmere shaw like a scarf so

305
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 3: huge as to engulf one. Yes, I would not, However,

306
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 3: in a million years pay forty five thousand dollars.

307
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Speaker 2: I don't think I pay forty five hundred dollars for

308
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 2: a shawl.

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Speaker 3: What would middle class Elizabeth do back then?

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Speaker 2: Where would you place the cap on? How much you

311
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Speaker 2: pay for a really nice like this is my my

312
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Speaker 2: favorite show?

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Speaker 3: Well, it depends on all the quality of the casual.

314
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Speaker 2: Say it's nice, and imagine it's really nice.

315
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Speaker 3: You're and I need Kashmere. So I have to really

316
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 3: think about this. Mom mandel Mam was like in the

317
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 3: legal version of quints, okay, like affordable. I would totally

318
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 3: be hanging around her store. I know, like, do you

319
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Speaker 3: have the boyfriend car?

320
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Speaker 2: You would have one of those tickets.

321
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Speaker 3: I think like if you get I'd look at like

322
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,920
Speaker 3: three hundred dollars would be like a low a Kashmir shawl. Sure,

323
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Speaker 3: So if I really like this was a nice like

324
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Speaker 3: a couple grand, I don't know, I personally wouldn't pay

325
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:21,640
Speaker 3: that grand. Maybe reddit afterwards I'd be like, oh.

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Speaker 2: My god, what have I done?

327
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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no pay a thousand dollars for it, you know,

328
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 3: but that'd be a nice, nice, nice one.

329
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,080
Speaker 2: Sure, I would assume.

330
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Speaker 3: So anyway, that of course, Like if you're looking at

331
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 3: forty five thousand.

332
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,040
Speaker 2: Dollars equivalent, that's that's like today a nice used Trump.

333
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 3: And Ma's like, you got fifty bucks.

334
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a brand new Chinese ev Yes exactly.

335
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Speaker 3: And I say this as I am currently wearing a

336
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Speaker 3: cashmere sweater.

337
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I know.

338
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 3: I don't even know how much that would.

339
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 2: I know that too. I wasn't even go as.

340
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 3: In those days it didn't cost me forty five thousand dollars.

341
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 3: So Ma, she exploited the gap between rising demand and

342
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 3: the availability of stolen merch, and that's how she made

343
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:08,920
Speaker 3: an obscene.

344
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,240
Speaker 2: Amount of money.

345
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 3: Apparently, let's take a break when we return more stolen goods.

346
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Speaker 3: Zaren Elizabeth, welcome back. Hey have a Cashmi wrap.

347
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,679
Speaker 2: I just bought a sixty thousand dollars pair of socks.

348
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:47,639
Speaker 3: They're really nice, Mom, Mandelbah, she's making it work. So

349
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 3: she has moved from peddling is one hundred percent focused

350
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 3: on her growing criminal empire. She also benefited from like

351
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 3: the broader political and economic climate of New York City

352
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,199
Speaker 3: at the time, Like corruption was everywhere. Yeah, I mean

353
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,959
Speaker 3: you had Tammany Hall exactly, and it was just it

354
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 3: was a big mess.

355
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Speaker 2: And also like ostentatious, like flourishes of wealth are starting

356
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 2: to become the fashion of the day. We're not quite

357
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 2: to like, you know, the whatever the whatever you want

358
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 2: to call the eighteen nineties. There's lots of different nickties,

359
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,840
Speaker 2: but like you know, the Gilded Age will say, but.

360
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 3: We're on our way. The trends that people watch live

361
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 3: up to. And the thing is, it's like it that

362
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,920
Speaker 3: spark for what, you know, some would call the Gilded

363
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,639
Speaker 3: Age of you know, if you have any kind of

364
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,439
Speaker 3: show of wealth, you're welcomed in, no questions asked. Yeah, so,

365
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 3: I mean she fits right in with that. So and

366
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,719
Speaker 3: we're transitioning from an agrarian economy to like this capitalist

367
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,639
Speaker 3: urban commerce. She built her fortune by you know, taking

368
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 3: things out of legitimate trade channels and you know, putting

369
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:55,560
Speaker 3: them on the illicit market.

370
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,960
Speaker 2: And and in a way that cops really don't usually

371
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,440
Speaker 2: mess with. There's no violence. They're like, what can we do?

372
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And then maybe they'll take a little on

373
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 3: the side. Yeah, so by she's got eighteen sixty five.

374
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 3: She's got the modest dry goods store on Clinton Street

375
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 3: the Lower east Side, So let's talk about that a

376
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,680
Speaker 3: little bit. It served as the public front for this

377
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 3: rapidly expanding criminal operation. There was the store front, but

378
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,439
Speaker 3: then there were also like this warren of rooms behind

379
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 3: the shop that functioned as headquarters for the network. So

380
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 3: inside the building at Clinton and Rivington, she had all

381
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 3: of these hidden features to hide stuff. So look normal

382
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 3: when you walk in downst room, they were altering and

383
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 3: like stripping identifying marks off of stuff.

384
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,400
Speaker 2: Oh, there's not like a stock room first, and then

385
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 2: behind that they.

386
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 3: Right, they're taking gemstones out of settings. They're taking like

387
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 3: hallmarks off of jewelry and silverware.

388
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 2: Literally behind the curtain you got jewelers.

389
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 3: Kind away manufacturers, labels from textiles. And then there was

390
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 3: like a trapdoor that led to other places concealed passageways.

391
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 3: This a tunnel network chimney. Yeah, oh yeah. There was

392
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 3: a hidden parlor where she could like secretly observe transaction.

393
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 3: There was a dormitory for when they needed to arrest

394
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 3: the thieves.

395
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been working all night, tired.

396
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,160
Speaker 3: You take five. The upstairs was her family apartment where

397
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 3: the kids were being raised. This is all all there.

398
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 3: Her primary business became fencing stolen property, so she really

399
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 3: wasn't out there doing anything. Smart criminals who stole items,

400
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 3: you know, jewelry, furniture sold to her. She turned it around.

401
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 2: I assume they're coming to the back, yes, and here's

402
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 2: what I got.

403
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 3: Exactly back entrance and all that stuff she really like.

404
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 3: She preferred stuff like silk and diamonds. They could be

405
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 3: purchased cheaply, resold at huge profits, hard to prove where

406
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 3: they came from exactly. She was willing to handle almost anything, though.

407
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 3: There's this story that goes that after the Great Chicago Fire,

408
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 3: thieves brought her a herd of goats that they stole

409
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 3: and during the chaos, and she was like yeah, and

410
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 3: she's like, y'all take them. How they got the goats

411
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 3: from Chicago, New York?

412
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 2: I cannot say, I'm going to assume a train.

413
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 3: I guess who knows. So she sought out experienced criminals

414
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 3: rather than like street brawlers or petty scavengers. A lot

415
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 3: of the women that she employed specialized in shoplifting from

416
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,199
Speaker 3: department stores, which we.

417
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 2: Saw them rot as was imagining some upscale maids who

418
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 2: are like, you know, going to leave their employer.

419
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 3: She taught these women like how to move through the

420
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: department stores without attracting any attention. There's this police inspector

421
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 3: Thomas Burns. He wrote a book about the criminals at

422
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 3: the time, and he recorded all of her known associates

423
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 3: in this eighteen eighty six book. There was Mike Kurtz

424
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 3: and he was one of the co found of the

425
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 3: Dutch Mob during the eighteen seventies. He went to prison

426
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 3: for silk theft and then while he was inside he

427
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 3: found out that eating soap could make you sick.

428
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 2: He had to go to prison, so he ate soap.

429
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 3: And he got sick and he lost wade. He was

430
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 3: a mess. Prison doctors are like, I don't know, we

431
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 3: don't know what's wrong with him. Sure, we don't know

432
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 3: what to do. I'm just going to diagnose him as dying.

433
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 3: And so he got a pardon and then he stopped

434
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 3: eating soap and he was fine. So that was upright,

435
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 3: having people.

436
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: Why you inside, I was pushing silk silk, What do

437
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 2: you know?

438
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 3: Now I'm eating soap okay. So then he had Mary Holbrook.

439
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 3: She was an Irish born pickpocket and a shop lifter.

440
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 3: She bounced around between Boston, Chicago, New York. She is

441
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 3: called the most notorious female thief in America. In the

442
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 3: late eighteen hundreds Mary Whole book. She was running a

443
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 3: brothel when she married this guy thief named Holbrook. And

444
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: in eighteen sixty nine he and his gang went to

445
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 3: western Illinois to rob some banks. They got caught. Buck

446
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: and his buddies tried to tunnel their way out of jail,

447
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 3: but they got caught again. He did not survive a

448
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: prison guard's excitability with a shotgun. Yeah, bad luck, Buckshot.

449
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 3: Molly gave him a proper funeral and said, quote, we

450
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 3: all know that Buck was not on the square, but

451
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 3: he was always a good and kind man to me,

452
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 3: that is the measure. And over like one hundred people,

453
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 3: all these thieves and like prostitutes and ruffians went to

454
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: his funeral. Then Molly met and married this guy, Jimmy Hoy.

455
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 3: He was a pickpocket and they ran a pickpocket ring together.

456
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: She found new love. And this is around the time

457
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 3: that she worked under Ma. Then there was Sophie Levy

458
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 3: aka Sophie Lyons. She was a young pickpocket yeah, and

459
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 3: a blackmailer. She was regarded as one of Ma's top

460
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 3: proteges and like her, Skime like her. The whole thing

461
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 3: was that she would lure men into hotel rooms, wait

462
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: until they got undressed, and then steal their clothes and

463
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: demand money to give it back to them.

464
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you'd have like a male Confederate county.

465
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 3: It was like, nope, I've got your pants. Yeah, I

466
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 3: got your honey pants.

467
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: Everybody knows because your name's are in it exactly.

468
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 3: Now give me fifty bucks. There was also black Lina Kleinschmidt,

469
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 3: Black Lina kleins Yeah, and so she, like Sophie Lyons,

470
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: was like a close student of moz and Black Lina

471
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: was another German born criminal in New York. She's struggling

472
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 3: to get by. She got busted in eighteen eighty trying

473
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 3: to steal one hundred and eight yards of silk worth

474
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty dollars and that's like eight thousand today.

475
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 3: When she finally got out of jail, she skipped bail

476
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 3: and she was like caught and they put time on

477
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: her ticket. She moved to Hackensack, New Jersey. When she's

478
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 3: finally out there, she posed as a wealthy widow of

479
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 3: a South American mining tycoon.

480
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: That's brilliant, creative. I thought she's gonna go with her.

481
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: I love it.

482
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: The widow of a boat captain who saying she went,

483
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: she went off the American mining magnet.

484
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 3: She copied Ma's lavish and like convivial style. She threw

485
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 3: these really fancy dinner parties.

486
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: She's kind of a bone v yes, yes.

487
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: And it was at these parties that she'd rob her guests.

488
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: And then she was to go from Hackensack up to

489
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 3: New York, sell the stuff, and then come back with

490
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 3: the money to throw another huge party and keep the

491
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 3: lifestyle going. And she got busted for that when she

492
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 3: wound up wearing this emerald ring that she'd stolen and

493
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 3: the victim recognized it at the next party.

494
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: You can't do that.

495
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: You can't do that.

496
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 2: Also, you got to have some kind of like Patsy

497
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 2: who you can blame for stuff goes bad. You gotta

498
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 2: be like, oh no, there is one guy. I don't

499
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 2: know why he's around. He's got to be also family,

500
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: so he knows you're not really throwing him under the bus.

501
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: You're just like you need to go cool up for it.

502
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 3: She's she got lazy.

503
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 2: There was this thing and covetous.

504
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 3: Native shoplift her a Litland known as kid glove Rosie.

505
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: Was he a was she like a legitimate like little person?

506
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 5: No?

507
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: No, no, she was just short.

508
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 2: She was just a tiny one.

509
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 3: And kid Glove Rosie worked with Black Lena a lot,

510
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 3: and she got busted. Yeah, kid Glove Rosie got busted

511
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: on that silk heist with her like her.

512
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: Hands are the size of a kid's school.

513
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 3: I guess I don't know, or she would you know,

514
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: she would handle thing with kids, kid gloves. She was

515
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 3: a gentle touch in her shoplifting.

516
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 2: Like.

517
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 3: There was also this elderly Irish pickpocket named Old Mother Hubbard,

518
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 3: and her specialty was being able to get into any

519
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 3: woman's handbag and take the coin purse out like she

520
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 3: could just she was incredible with that.

521
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 2: Was she literally an elderly woman, an old.

522
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: Irish lady Mom managed this really diverse group. I mean,

523
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 3: you think about it, it's primarily German born Jewish immigrants,

524
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 3: but then like like a healthy dose of Irish and

525
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: these are the people who were fully marginalized.

526
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: All the time and living right now near each other.

527
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so they're like exactly. So she's got this

528
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 3: huge group and she organized them so well. And to

529
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: protect herself from prosecution, she wouldn't take stolen goods directly

530
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 3: at the shop. She had them stored in various rented

531
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: properties all around the city. So, despite all her criminal activities,

532
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: she developed this reputation for loyalty and reliability among all

533
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 3: the people who worked with her and for her money.

534
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

535
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: Well, and according to New York's chief of police at

536
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 3: the time, George Walling, she was widely regarded as scrupulously

537
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: fair within the criminal world, and her success came in

538
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: large part because she had this support. Like saying, quick

539
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: with the bail money. She rarely betrayed anyone who worked

540
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 3: with her. She would do the bail, she'd get lawyers

541
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: for people. Newspapers sometimes described her with this like aura

542
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: of respect, that she was respectable and even like philanthropic.

543
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: She sounds straight up gangster, I mean the original gangster.

544
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: Yes, So her influence went way beyond just like simple fencing. So,

545
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: like I said, there's you know, you've got Tammany Hall

546
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 3: going on. Well, she cozies up to all those politicians.

547
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: They're dirty and corrupting. Criminal.

548
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 3: Cozy is up to the police department.

549
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 4: She knows all these officers and detectives. They she'd have

550
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 4: these elaborate dinners at her home and she would entertain

551
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 4: them and then you know, she would pay them off.

552
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: To look the other way. She would have sometimes like

553
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 3: for her network. She would also throw them big, you

554
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 3: know parties, picnics.

555
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm sure donate to the policeman's retirement.

556
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: Even her criminal gangs, She's like, let's have a company picnic.

557
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: Let's do it. Some people had like regular salaries with her,

558
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 3: rather than just being paid by.

559
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: The peace ahead of her curry.

560
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: And that's how she got all these maternal nicknames mar mother, ma, mother,

561
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: bomb th like so they called her so. Stories circulated

562
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: that she even established a training school for young criminals.

563
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 3: Zaren closure eyes. Yes, I want you to picture it.

564
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: It's October of eighteen seventy six. You are a thirteen

565
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: year old boy sent to enroll at a local school,

566
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: a school for criminals. You walk up to the building

567
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 3: at Clinton and Grand in New York's Lower East Side.

568
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: It's a chaotic scene on the street. Vendors jostles for

569
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: customers on the sidewalks and in the gutters, as horses

570
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 3: slowly pull carts laden with goods up the street. Shops

571
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: with Hebrew lettering painted on the windows flanked a building

572
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: signs above you. Up and down the street advertised rooms

573
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 3: for rent, or cobbler services or baked goods. People laugh,

574
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,479
Speaker 3: they argue, They call to one another in Yiddish. You

575
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 3: are a red headed Irish kid. Here's a little out

576
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: of his element here, but you feel alive, You feel ready.

577
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: Three blocks down at Clinton and Rivington is Mom Mandelbaum's

578
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: dry goods store. You are well aware that it's a front.

579
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: You've walked by and peeked in. You've heard stories. You

580
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 3: are a very intelligent, very precocious kid. You have street smarts,

581
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 3: and you're going to go far in this world. And

582
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: to help you on your way, you're trying to get

583
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: into Ma's school for criminal kids. You ring the bell

584
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: and a woman in her twenties opens the door. She

585
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 3: asks who sent you? You tell her old mother Hubbard

586
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: knows you sent you here to get a start. She

587
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: looks you up and down and then nods and lets

588
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 3: you in. She passes you off to an older teen boy.

589
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 3: He tells you he's going to give you a tour

590
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: and then you'll get started. You follow him up a

591
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: flight of creaking stairs to a wide landing. He tells

592
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 3: you that beginners start with pickpocketing and small thefts. He

593
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: asks if you have any experience with that. Sure, you say,

594
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 3: I know all about it. He eyes you suspiciously. You

595
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: stare at him and reach into your pocket, keeping his

596
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: eye contact, you pull out a pearl handled knife. The

597
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: boy's face goes pale. That's my knife, he stammers, patting

598
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 3: at his pocket. You hand it back to him. Indeed

599
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 3: it is, you say, Then you smirk. The boy puts

600
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: the knife into his inside jacket pocket, stares at you,

601
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 3: and continues his tour. You walk down the hall and

602
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: stop in front of a room. A woman instructs a

603
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: young girl to bump into a boy as she walks

604
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 3: by him. She does as she's told again. The teacher

605
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: demands the children take their places and pretend once more

606
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: to pass each other on the street. We'll be teaching

607
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: you the techniques of distraction and stealth, but I'm not

608
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: sure you need much teaching in that department, he says.

609
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: He tells you that the next step is more complex crimes.

610
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 3: You follow him down the hall to another room. Inside,

611
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: a group of young boys sits on the floor and

612
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 3: they watch in awe as an old man with a

613
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 3: long gray beard slowly turns the dial on a safe.

614
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: He looks up at you and smiles and goes back

615
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 3: to the work. Your guide tells you that you'll learn

616
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 3: stuff like burglary, blackmail, and safe cracking unless you already

617
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 3: know how to crack a safe, he says no. You

618
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: tell him not yet, that's why you're here. The two

619
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: of you reach another stairwell and climb to the next floor.

620
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 3: The boy tells you that if you show real talent,

621
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: you'll be able to join Mandelbaum's organization immediately. He says,

622
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: Moss started the school six years ago. He was in

623
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: the first class. You stop at another open door. It

624
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 3: looks like a traditional classroom. Inside, students sit in rows

625
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: of desks, their heads down, brows furrowed, and concentration as

626
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: they practice forging a signature posted on a large paper

627
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: taped to a chalkboard. At the front of the room,

628
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: a boy with ink smeared on his cheek, glances up

629
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: at you, and then gets back to work. Your guide

630
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: tells you you're going to go see the dining area,

631
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: and you start down the hall, but stop abruptly. An

632
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: enormous woman blocks your path. She is imposing, she is serene.

633
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 3: She asks you your name, and you tell her you're honest,

634
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 3: no alias. She stares at you, looks you up and down.

635
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 3: Where are you from? She asks, Hell's kitchen? You tell

636
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 3: her no, Where are your people from? She says me,

637
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: Dad's from County Cork. If that's what you're after, you

638
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: tell her. She's silent. You can hear a clock ticking

639
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: in a room down the hall. Is your father, Seamus Sullivan?

640
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 3: She asks why? You respond, I think you know why

641
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: I'm asking you go. Does he know you're here? She

642
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 3: asks you? Tell her no. She stares some more. The

643
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: clock keeps ticking. Get out, she tells you in the

644
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: harshest tone. Get out now. You turn and race down

645
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 3: the stairs two at a time. You make it to

646
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 3: the front door, and fling yourself out onto the street.

647
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: The sunshine blinds you momentarily. You run down Clinton, bobbing

648
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: and leaving between people crossing Broadway until you reach South Street,

649
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: right by Peer thirty six. You slam into a police officer,

650
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 3: a detective. He looks down at you. You look up

651
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: at him. She's on to us that you say, your

652
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: father looks to the sky and then turns and spits

653
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: on the ground. He sighs. Well, we gave it a shot,

654
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 3: he says. Meanwhile, back at the school, Mom Mandelbaum is

655
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 3: quickly closing up shop, kicking her pupils out into the street,

656
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: as if this school never existed in the first place.

657
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to go to crime school for kids,

658
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 2: so zaren, I'd love that Seamus Sullivan was a copy.

659
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 3: So there's reason to believe it didn't actually exist in

660
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 3: the first place. So for years, decades, more than a century,

661
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 3: it was understood that ma ran a school for young

662
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 3: criminals at Clinton and Grand in the Lower east Side.

663
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 3: School Well, no, and then she shut it down. And

664
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: then it was also widely understood that she shut it

665
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 3: down when she discovered that the son of a cop

666
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 3: had enrolled. Oh and so I didn't make that part

667
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: of it. Yeah, but then that Marglite Fox wrote in

668
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: her book that her research determined it was an urban legend.

669
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 3: That's a buzzkill and like Fox Mulder, I want to believe.

670
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: I'm right there with you, Fox. And also it seems

671
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: like that'd be something that she would do.

672
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 3: And then then like a cop sends his kid in

673
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: to like infiltrate. Yeah, I love it. Let's pause for ads,

674
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 3: and I'm going to pick your pockets and when we

675
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 3: come back more Ma, Ma mandlebam.

676
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 2: How you enjoying my pocket? Lint? I saw you dry

677
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: it and lint I got lint empty my pockets in

678
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: anticipation of this, I'm.

679
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: Not very good, Ma. Ruler of a criminal empire, Queen

680
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 3: the Empress. As her power increased, she expanded into financing

681
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 3: large scale criminal ventures. I was wondering, Yeah, stuff like

682
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 3: bank robberies, really elaborate burglaries. One of her most notable

683
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 3: crimes that was connected to her whole network happened in

684
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: eighteen sixty nine when thieves broke into New York City's

685
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: Ocean National Bank and stole around eight hundred thousand dollars.

686
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 3: Adam Worth was in on that one talked about that

687
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: and so the robbery like it took months of prep.

688
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 3: Remember a shell company rented office space beneath the bank.

689
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 3: They cut through that ceiling using specially designed tools. At

690
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 3: the time, it was considered the largest bank burglary in

691
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: American history. And so for about like three decades, her

692
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 3: organization operated with just freedom. They just did whatever. Yeah,

693
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 3: that incredible. So law enforcement officials they knew at the

694
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 3: time that like this goes all across the country. She

695
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: wasn't just in New York.

696
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, have Chicago connections. Yeah, straight out.

697
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 3: If a major silk robbery happened in any other city

698
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: and like the criminals were associated with her organization, she

699
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 3: would be the first like write a first refusal for

700
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: that silk, Like that was how it went. And she

701
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 3: also but she had this like public image of this

702
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 3: respectable member of the community. She gave tons of money,

703
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: she donated to her synagogue. She was friendly with her neighbors.

704
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: She came across Like if you weren't aware, just is

705
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 3: this really like rich, respectable woman?

706
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: Was she did she have like a pretend husband or

707
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: an even wolf. Yeah, but he was older, so I

708
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 2: don't know if he's still alive.

709
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: He's still there and he didn't have to keep pedlins.

710
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: So like.

711
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and behind this facade, you know, she's organizing

712
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 3: thefts and burglaries and luxury merchandise all across the United States.

713
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 3: She had this lavish lifestyle. She wore really elaborate silk

714
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: dresses and a sealskin cape, and she wore a ton

715
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 3: of jewelry. There were some that say that she wore

716
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 3: like basically a million dollars like in modern dollars worth

717
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 3: of jewelry around just every day, like very Elizabeth Taylor.

718
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: Wow, And you're nobody's gonna rob her.

719
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 3: So it's exactly who would even dare. As her business expanded,

720
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 3: she bought warehouses in order to store all the stolen goods.

721
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: And I'm sure that like you know, I know that

722
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: she's primarily in non violent crimes, but I bet you

723
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 2: knows some hitters.

724
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she has. She has to do, yeah, because all

725
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 3: of the like her coterie of bad men, they're on

726
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: the fringes and they're connected to other like violent groups.

727
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: My brother does that do work exactly.

728
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: So in the mid eighteen eighties, an estimated ten million

729
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 3: dollars worth of luxury merchandise had been handled through her

730
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 3: Lower East Side shop get it. It was one of

731
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 3: the central hubs of organized crime in the city, and

732
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 3: so her long run of success, though, finally came to

733
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 3: an end. In eighteen eighty four, this newly appointed District

734
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 3: Attorney of New York City, Peter Olney, he decided to

735
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 3: go after her.

736
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: Her specifically trendy, not just criminals like her, but her specifically.

737
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 3: But because local police, like everyone, kind of knew they'd

738
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 3: been compromised, right, so only hired the Pinkerton National Detective

739
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: Agency those joy Kills to conduct a sting operation. And

740
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 3: there was this one Pinkerton agent, Gustav Frank. He infiltrated

741
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 3: the network. He posed as a criminal named Stein, and

742
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 3: he exploited her tendency to help thieves out, particularly those

743
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 3: of German Jewish background like she was. And that's how

744
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 3: he got into like the inner circle. He wormed his

745
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 3: way in. So on the morning of July twenty second,

746
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty four, Frank and three other Pinkerton's raided the

747
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 3: shop and they uncovered a ton of stolen property up

748
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: and there's all that's in there, like jewelry, watches, silverware,

749
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 3: loose diamonds, all sorts of stuff, microwaves, color TVs, GPS systems,

750
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 3: air purifs, bevel toaster ovens, you know or not I

751
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 3: don't know.

752
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: It was just like a smoking gun collection.

753
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: Completely completely. They found all the hidden rooms, antique furniture

754
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: trunks filled with cashmere shawls, lace curtains, bolts of silk.

755
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: They had melted down stolen jewelry into just gold bars,

756
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 3: and so they found those. They went into her bedroom

757
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 3: and they found the melting pots and the scales used

758
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 3: to do all this stuff when they arrested her. So

759
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 3: the detectives arrest her and they try and holler away,

760
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: and one's like, you know what, just admit, defeat and cooperate.

761
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 3: She like stops and turns and looks at him and

762
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 3: then just socks him in the kiss or just decks it.

763
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: So I know.

764
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 3: Exactly her son, Julius, who had been involved in the operations.

765
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 3: He got arrested alongside Julius. It's a great name. One

766
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 3: of her daughters was married to in some reports married

767
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 3: to a detective and others to a politician. It depends

768
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 3: on which newspaper you read. Why not both write, But

769
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 3: like she was supposed to be attached to all the

770
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 3: family business as well, and so like this is just

771
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 3: the press loves this. Of course, It's all over the place,

772
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: and so she already had prominent defense attorneys like on

773
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 3: retainer William F. Howe and Abraham Hummel, and they were

774
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: well known for like representing the Underworld figures in the city.

775
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: So they're mob lawyers.

776
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 3: Yes. They tried to undermine the credibility of Frank the

777
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: Pinkerton detective.

778
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: Like the roy Cohnes of the nineteenth century.

779
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 3: Yes, and so they're like, you know, that Pinkerton detective,

780
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: I think he actually was a criminal, Like he's not

781
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 3: a Pinkerton, you know, so they're just making him out

782
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 3: he was. He was, you know, taking his own share

783
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 3: of stuff.

784
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

785
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 3: Bail was set at ten grand, which was just an

786
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 3: incredible amount then, and that was like for five different

787
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: charges that she was facing.

788
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 2: Like receiving stolen goods, that kind of stuff.

789
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, So bail gets paid, She goes home and the

790
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: Pinkertons are keeping an eye on her under total surveillance.

791
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 3: December fourth, eighteen eighty four, though she's scheduled to appear

792
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 3: in court, she vanishes. She used a body double to

793
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 3: slip the Pinkertons, got on a train, fled to Canada,

794
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 3: and took a million dollars worth of stolen goods with her.

795
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I've always wanted to

796
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 2: have cause to use a body double right to sneak

797
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: to Canada.

798
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: I mean, that's like girls dream. So remember that thief

799
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 3: Molly Holbrook, who, Yeah, she was working in all like

800
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 3: up and down the Northeast as a pickpocket. She got

801
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 3: busted a bunch of times in Boston. Boston, Yeah, but

802
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 3: either she would jump bail or she'd get off thanks

803
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: to her fancy lawyers, how and humble, which MA would

804
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 3: organize her. But in eighteen eighty four she got arrested

805
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 3: and got five years at the prison on Blackwell's Island.

806
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 3: And she begged MA, like, please send the lawyers, send lawyers,

807
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 3: guns and money. MA was like enough, I can't with you.

808
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 3: So Mollie decided to turn state's evidence on Ma. Oh no,

809
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 3: And that's one of the reasons why MA ran off

810
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: to Canada. That's one of the reasons the DA was like, oh,

811
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 3: I can go after this. MA knew that they had

812
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 3: an insider to testify against her, so she goes off

813
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 3: to Ontario. By the following day, newspapers had traced her

814
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 3: to Canada like they figured it out. But because no

815
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 3: extradition treaty existed between the US and Canada at that time.

816
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 3: She could stay there without being returned for trial, so

817
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 3: she didn't really want to leave New York, just like

818
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 3: ri Em saying, leaving New York never easy. I saw

819
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 3: the light fading out. That's a great song, by the way,

820
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 3: sare thank you, thank you for bringing that up. In Toronto,

821
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 3: she was in Hamilton, Ontario, just outside, just outside of Toronto,

822
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 3: so she was forced to stay there, and she saw

823
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 3: this exile as kind of like a living death, like

824
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 3: New York was everything for her. But there she is Hamilton, Ontario.

825
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 3: She opened a business known as Ladies and Children's Underwear

826
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 3: Emporium and Andizars Unpants sure right, so even there, like

827
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 3: it was rumored that she was fencing and bribing officials.

828
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 3: She worked behind the store counter though, and she went

829
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,959
Speaker 3: to services at the local synagogue. She kept a really

830
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 3: close relationship with her children. One of her sons opened

831
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: a tobacconist shop right down the street. A daughter of

832
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 3: hers frequently traveled from New York carrying letters and packages,

833
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: and people like also kind of thought that maybe she

834
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 3: was bringing up stolen merchandise because she always, like Moss

835
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 3: still had really low price in her shop, and the

836
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 3: daughter always came in with a lot of luggage, but

837
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 3: they could never prove anything. In eighteen eighty five, tragedy

838
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: struck her youngest daughter, Annie died in New York. She

839
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 3: was only eighteen. It was pneumonia. So mom was like,

840
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 3: I have to see her one last time. She was bereft.

841
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 3: This was her baby. So she snuck back to.

842
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 2: New York for the.

843
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, she put on a disguise and I'm really hoping

844
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 3: for great wig play. Then she got into her old

845
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: house by using one of the passages her crooks would

846
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 3: use to get in undetected. She managed to view the body,

847
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 3: pay her respects before leaving again for Canada, and she

848
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 3: made it back without getting arrested. Yes, I was hoping

849
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 3: she was able to do it. So Fredrika Marmandelbaum died

850
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 3: in Canada in eighteen ninety four. Her body was transported

851
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 3: back to New York for burial in the same cemetery

852
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 3: where her daughter was laid to rest. And even in death,

853
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: she was this figure of fascination. So like the newspapers

854
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 3: had all this wild speculation about the funeral and the burial.

855
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 3: Some thought that she faked her death and the coffin

856
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 3: was just like full of rocks that she was out

857
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 3: living it up somewhere, and others, like other newspaper reports

858
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 3: talked about how like there was this huge crowd and

859
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 3: everyone got pickpocketed, and so at the time of her death,

860
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 3: she had a fortune that was estimated at around a

861
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 3: million dollars, which is like thirty seven point eight million

862
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: dollars today. So zaren, what's your ridiculous takeaway?

863
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: I am so impressed with marm Mandelbomb. I mean, like

864
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: for a lot of reasons. I like her panacha, like

865
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: her style, like the way she does it. But also

866
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: I mean it's the classic thing of like, oh, you

867
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: gotta be like twice as good. She's like, I got

868
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: to be three times as good to be able to

869
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: be on the same par because you know, I'm an immigrant,

870
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: I'm a woman in the nineteenth century America and Canada.

871
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: I mean like I'm a Jewish woman. I'm six feet tall,

872
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: and I stand out. And then like everything she's like

873
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: so like and the fact that she got to live

874
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: and lived so well and took care so many people.

875
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: She seems to be like the type of criminal that

876
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: I always wanted to be around back when I did crime,

877
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: which is hard to find. You know, like people have

878
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 2: gotten lazy about how they do crime now. They don't

879
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: understand it's a community thing. Like if you really want

880
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 2: to be successful, you've got to have a network. You

881
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 2: gotta have respect, You got to have people who owe

882
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: you in a way that is actually meaningful, you know,

883
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 2: not just like you know, otherwise you're gonna get the're

884
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: gonna turn state's evidence.

885
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we're talking about old school mafia, and

886
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 3: you see it as like that's when the police wouldn't

887
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 3: protect a community. They had to stuff up and protect.

888
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: You want the old ladies to be able to go

889
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 2: out of it.

890
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 3: It's gonna cost you a little something, but like that's

891
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 3: the taxes you pay basically.

892
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 2: And it's also I mean that is kind of how

893
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: society works anyway. I mean, like you're paying stuff already

894
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 2: all the time for these same things. You're just doing

895
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: it to a person who's like a little bit more

896
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: familiar with violence crime, you know. But it's like it's

897
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: not that much different, right, right, and it's more effective,

898
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 2: you know. It's like I'm being real anyway, what's yours?

899
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 3: Elizabeth my ridiculus takeaway is that you know, she didn't

900
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 3: From what I understand, she wasn't hurting anybody, you know.

901
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 3: And I mean it's like, there are just costs of

902
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 3: doing business when you're dealing with luxury goods. I suppose so,

903
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 3: And I think that she helped more than she heard.

904
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 3: You know what insurance is for exactly everything for each other.

905
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 3: It just keeps she circulating money into the community. But

906
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I need to talk back.

907
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 2: That's my takeaway. Oh my god, I.

908
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 5: Let Oh my goodness, I just got done listening to

909
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 5: the ten cent Beer Night. I have not laughed this

910
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 5: hard any of your episodes. There was another one. I

911
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 5: can't remember what it was, but this one was hilarious.

912
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 5: Somebody needs to make a movie or a short film

913
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 5: about it.

914
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 3: Would be hilarious things. Guys. That's a really good idea.

915
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: Like a documentary.

916
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there actually are there. Yeah, I think

917
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: there are. I think there's even a documentary. I think

918
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: there's an animated version of that story that's like on

919
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 2: YouTube or whatever. I think you can find people. I mean,

920
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 2: we've been asked to tell that story to other people,

921
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 2: Like just in general, it's it is a very much

922
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 2: a not a known commodity. But I mean it's like

923
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: some people are like this one.

924
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 3: You're told it the funniest way.

925
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: We did, you did did?

926
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 3: That's it for today. You can find us online at

927
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: ridiculous Crime dot com. We're also at Ridiculous Crime on

928
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 3: Blue Sky and Instagram or on YouTube a Ridiculous Crime pod.

929
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 3: You can email us at ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com,

930
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 3: and you can please please please leave a talk back

931
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 3: on the free iHeart app reach out. Ridiculous Crime is

932
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 3: hosted by Zabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and edited

933
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: by Pau Houston, head of the Rude Duke Gang, starring

934
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: Emily's Rutger as Judith. Research is by notorious pickpocket Marissa

935
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 3: Brown and professor of safe cracking Jabbari Davis. The theme

936
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 3: song is by Guy who keeps his Wallet in his

937
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 3: back pocket Thomas Lee and Guy who Can't find his

938
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 3: Wallet Travis Dutton. Post wardrobe is provided by Botany five

939
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 3: hundred guests, hair and makeup by Sparkleshot Mister Andre. Executive

940
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 3: producers are Pinkerton, Pickpocket poachers Ben Bolin and Noel Brown.

941
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: P Dicks Crime Say It one More Time.

942
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 3: Geequus Crime.

943
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four more podcasts

944
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: My heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

945
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.