1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. This 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: is part two of my conversation with Dr Rachel Yahuda 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: on this special bonus episode of Family Secrets. Can you 4 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: explain for the listener? I think epigenetics is now like 5 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: this word that gets tossed around a lot that I 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: think a lot of people don't understand in terms of 7 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: just what the term means. So epigenetics refers to the 8 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: study of how genes are regulated, and that is a 9 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: very broad category, and epigenetics describes a lot of things 10 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: that make a lot of sense once you think about them. So, 11 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: for example, every cell has the exact same number of 12 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: genes in it. There in, your genes are very different 13 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: than someone else's genes. That is the basis for looking 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: at your genetic code and for searching for your ancestors. 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: You're going to have a unique set of genes, and 16 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: you're probably going to be able to figure out who 17 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: has some of those genes and that they're related to you. Right, 18 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: But when you start out in life, you start out 19 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: as a single cell, right, So two gamets or sex 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: cells and eggon to sperm unite and form as eyegoat 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: and the way that you develop is that that from 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: that very single cell, that cell keeps dividing and dividing 23 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: and dividing, dividing and dividing and dividing. Right now, at 24 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: some point those cells need to differentiate. They have the 25 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: recipe through your genes for everything that needs to happen 26 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: over the next few months. So contained within each and 27 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: every cell is the code for differentiating that cell into 28 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: a skin cell, or a liver cell, or a brain 29 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: cell or a hard cell. Now how does how do 30 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: those cells know what cells they should be? Well, it's 31 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: because of epigenetic mechanisms that switched genes on and off, 32 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: allowing for developmental processes to occur. So so epigenetics was 33 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: first described in nineteen forties, even before we knew the 34 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: structure of DNA or could even look at every genetic marks, 35 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: because when you think about development, there had to have 36 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: been something that explains how these cells differentiate. But what 37 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: became new in kind of much later than that in 38 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: the nineties, in the late nineteen nineties was the idea 39 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: that it's not just an inner program that UM causes 40 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: epigenetic marks to regulate gene The environment also can contribute 41 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: to gene regulation by also permitting, under certain circumstances, different 42 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 1: epigenetic marks on the gene, so that the environment then 43 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: becomes a really important factor because it too has the 44 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: potential to result in epigenetic changes that change the way 45 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: your genes function. It's so mind blowing. I mean, it 46 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 1: blew my mind the first time I heard you speak 47 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: about it, and it continues to blow my mind because 48 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: it just expands so much of what makes us us. 49 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: But it makes so much sense because we are our 50 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: memories and we are our lived experiences, and when you 51 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: have a conversation that is restricted to genetics, you're discounting 52 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: the things that make us us. And you just have 53 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: to look at someone that has lost their memory to 54 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: know that we're more than our genes, right, We're we're 55 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: about our lived experiences, and our lived experiences change us. 56 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: And every genetics just really offers that language or the 57 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: mechanisms that allow us to understand how that happens. And 58 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: it does make sense. Now. Of course, it's complicated. Everything 59 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: always is what sells, what genes exactly are subject to 60 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: epigenetic regulation and under what conditions. It can get very 61 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:39,559 Speaker 1: scientifically wonky, but the big picture view here is that 62 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: the things that happened to us change us, and the 63 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: things that we decide should happen to us will also 64 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: change us. And this is actually a very hopeful thing. Um. 65 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: And not only do every genetic mechanisms help us understand 66 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: kind of very important questions, certainly the question I had 67 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: going in about the low cortisol, which was why do 68 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: effects of trauma and door um. Stress theory will have 69 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: you believe that after you mount a fight or flight response, 70 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: it takes a little while, but your body kind of 71 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: equilibrates and goes back to what it was. We called 72 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: this in the textbooks achieving homeostasis, biologic homeostasis, So your 73 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: stress hormones aren't activated a few hours after a trauma, 74 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: your heart's not pounding in your chest anymore as it 75 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: was when you were confronted with terror. Everybody who's had 76 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: the experience of terror knows that eventually your heart rate 77 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: goes back down. Right. So that's why stress and stress 78 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: theory has all these mechanisms to explain why that happens, 79 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: with cortisol being center stage as one of the hormones 80 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: that helps you shut down the sympathetic nervous system response 81 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,119 Speaker 1: to stress. So my question was, well, why twenty years 82 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: later are you still affected by something that happened in 83 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: the past. What is the biological mechanism of that. It's 84 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: got to be a different biologic mechanism than the mechanism 85 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: that is associated with fight or flight. Now, it took 86 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: me twenty years to make that conclusion. Um. But again, 87 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: you know you asked earlier on when you see data 88 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: that don't um fit with your theory, like, what do 89 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: you do? Do you just accept your data as full proof? No, 90 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: you fight like hell against the data because we like 91 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: to prioritize our theories, right. We want our data to 92 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: prove our idea of not the other way around. And 93 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: we will hold on to an idea almost at any cost. 94 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: It takes a very very long time when someone puts 95 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: out there the idea that PTSD is a continuation of 96 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: the stress response, right, I have another idea, which is, no, 97 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: the stress response is over. But then the event took 98 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: a life of its own in your mind, aided by 99 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: your biology, because that's what actually happens, and that this 100 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, when we think this is a mental process, 101 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: we don't also think that there's a simultaneous biologic process 102 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: going on. With our mental process. But there is and 103 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: so again years down the road, and then also there's 104 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, the snowball that keeps gathering more snow as 105 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: it continues to be rolled down the mountain. Right, other 106 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: things happen, and it's a dynamic process. So here you 107 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: are much later, and you're some of all the things 108 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: that have happened to you and that, and you have 109 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: kind of biologic mechanisms that have been helping you cope 110 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: and adapt and sometimes have been also increasing your vulnerability 111 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: to um environmental insults and maybe even increasing your vulnerability 112 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: to mood and anxiety disorders. We'll be back in a 113 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: moment with more family secrets. I'm also thinking about what 114 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: you're describing is the brain and the biology, and I'm 115 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: thinking about the body, and I'm thinking about it as 116 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: someone who's a long, long, long, long time yoga practitioner. 117 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: And the way that it seems that stories, which is 118 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: the way that I think because I'm a writer, continue 119 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: to live in the body. They feel lodged, you know, 120 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: like in yoga, if you do a hip opener, and 121 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: if you sit in it for long enough, one will 122 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: start to cry. Why, you know, where is that coming from? Now, 123 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: that's that's a beautiful thing to point out about yoga, 124 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: identifying that things are lodged in the body. But what 125 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: yoga also allows you to do is move energies around. 126 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: Especially some forms of yoga are much better at that 127 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: than others. But the most important part of yoga, and 128 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: I am also someone that loves to do yoga, is 129 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: that yoga is about the breath, and the breath is 130 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: about the moment, and the moment is not about the past. 131 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: And being able to control your breath in the moment 132 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: is the way that you prove to yourself that you 133 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: can disconnect from something unpleasant for the moment and in 134 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: a moment and also be able to accommodate it um 135 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: when you come back to it. So, yes, our bodies, ourselves, 136 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: I like to say, are carrying memories for us, some 137 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: of which we may actually end up transmitting in some way. 138 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: But we carry these memories because it's important to carry them. 139 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: It's important to learn from experience. How else will we 140 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: learn if we couldn't carry something permanent that outlives the 141 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: event with us. But what's equally important is to not 142 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: be dominant needed by those lessons, to have control over them, 143 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: as opposed to them having control over us or hijacking 144 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: us back to the past and back to a time 145 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: when we feel when we felt helpless or vulnerable. So 146 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: the idea is to carry trauma memories forward, being complete 147 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: acknowledgement and peace with them, and understand that the formation 148 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: of new memories through new experiences will help contextualize those 149 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: prior experiences and allow us to grow not only despite 150 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: traumatic experiences, but maybe sometimes also because of them. That's beautiful, Um, 151 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: it's actually a perfect segue to talk about the the 152 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: new work that you're doing. But before we do, I 153 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: just want to go back to epigenetics for one more question, 154 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: which again has to do with my own experience of 155 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: discovering your work while I was dealing with really the 156 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: question of literally, who who am I? If I'm not 157 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: who I'm not made of biologically who I thought I was, 158 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: and there's this whole world of people that I who, 159 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: who I don't know who? Actually, you know, my biological 160 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: father was a total stranger, and his his family, his ancestors, 161 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: my ancestors in fact um, were such a complete abrupt 162 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: shift in the narrative that I had always understood, and 163 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: I wondered regarding epo genetics and the environments and the 164 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: memories and the lived experiences of ancestors, how far how 165 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: far does that go back? Well, nobody knows, that's for sure, 166 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: but what what seems to have been? You know, I've 167 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: read Inheritance, which I thought was one of the most 168 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: beautiful books I've read in a long time, and also, um, 169 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: just looking at some of the other things that you're 170 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: writing about, and there's no way you could really claim 171 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: you're not your father's daughter. That is, the father who 172 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: raised you, your sensibilities, um, your affectations, your you know, 173 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: how you deal with with your upbringing and Judaism and spirituality. 174 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the shock of learning that those weren't his 175 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: genes makes the point that the environment he created for 176 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: you was so powerful to your identity, because it's not 177 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: like you woke up and realized, oh, actually I'm not 178 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: I must not be Jewish, I don't feel Jewish anymore. 179 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't necessarily feel a denial of who 180 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: you are through your upbringing. It was just a shock 181 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: that there was a mismatch between that upbringing and the 182 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: genes that you always thought were you. But the fact 183 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: that you might still feel so connected. Two, the father 184 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: that raised you, I think really does speak to the 185 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: power of who raised you and the fact that being 186 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: raised creates experiences. Those experiences last in us, and those 187 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: experiences are also available for us to bequeath or two 188 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, shape the next generation with. So it is 189 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: a shock to the system. So how much of the 190 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: epigenetics of your biological father do you have. It's a 191 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: really good question, um, whether whether what you have is 192 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: not just the genes of a sperm donor, but also 193 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: the lived history of that donor and his ancestral line. 194 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: So these are some really interesting questions that unfortunately most 195 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: people don't get to answer because they don't get to 196 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: have on the relationship to learn about all those shames 197 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: right right. So it would be a really interesting to 198 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: be able to see whether you could actually process some 199 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: of those ancestful memories of a lineage that you only 200 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: have genetically, as opposed through through culture or family or 201 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: through those things that matter exactly exactly. And you know, 202 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: it's so interesting because as you as you said that 203 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: to me about my dad, um, I write an inheritance 204 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: that he has always come to me ever since he 205 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: passed away as kind of literally a series of chills 206 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: that move up and down my body. And I'm going 207 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: into the from the scientific to the woo woo right now. 208 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: But it just it just happened when you when you 209 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: said that, It just happened as I'm sitting here in 210 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: my basement of my home. There it was. It just 211 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: felt like this enormous sort of hug from from the beyond. 212 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: And and the other thing is that I received an 213 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: email today from a rabbi who I don't know, who 214 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: was reading my book and he referred in his letter 215 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: to my father as he said, your spiritual father. And 216 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: I loved that so much. Um, you know, it was 217 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: so much better than any other term we have for 218 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: these things, social father, adoptive father, you know, all these 219 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: terms that we have. Spiritual father felt really right. And 220 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: he also spoke about the jcidim having um a way 221 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: of thinking of certain kinds of secrets, as you know, 222 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: and here I am on my own podcast where I 223 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: really kind of contend that no secrets are good secrets. 224 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: He really spoke about secrets that um where the legacy 225 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: of them is not pain and trauma and and um, 226 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: you know, kind of asundering but rather a kind of illuminating, 227 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: and he actually wrote, um, the fact that you got 228 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: the information that you needed on the second your site, 229 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: the second anniversary of your father's death is no accident. 230 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: And I was like, whoa, it's there's there's so much 231 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: and I and I don't want to hijack this conversation 232 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: with my experience, but but but really, I mean, I 233 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: do feel like I do feel a sense of purpose 234 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: in the fact that this is my story and that 235 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: I am who I am and I do what I do, 236 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: and I think the way that I think to try 237 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: to understand as much as I possibly can about it 238 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: because as you as you said, I can, um, yeah, yeah, 239 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: there there's a lot to process that is more than 240 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: just what we can do on the surface, because a 241 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: lot of the facts that we hold in our bodies 242 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: are not facts that can be spoken. They're not written, there, 243 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: not words, They're there lived experiences that are not nameable 244 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: or not they're not or or maybe ineffable in some ways. 245 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: So I think that these are a lot of the 246 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: things that you were really struggling within the book, and 247 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: it was very very moving and to me, the idea 248 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: of biology or epigenetics really being able to record and 249 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: hold our experiences. It's so valuable, you know, it's it's 250 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: so it's it's valuable, and it's precious and and it 251 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: means that what happens to us matters, and it's something 252 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: that we have known and now we can know in 253 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: a different way. Yeah. I love that we'll be back 254 00:17:55,560 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: in a moment with more family secrets. I think that 255 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: really brings us beautifully too. I would love for you 256 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about the work that you're 257 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: now doing, which is new and exciting and important and 258 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: very grounded and real and rooted in science. Um of 259 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: this psychedelic assisted sarapy and research that you have embarked on. Yes, 260 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: so this is a very new direction for me, but 261 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: it absolutely pertains to the question of intergenerational trauma. But 262 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: we just started a center at Mount Sinai that is 263 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: called the Center for Psychedelic Psychotherapy and Trauma Research because 264 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: a few years ago um I was introduced to the 265 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: idea that psychedelics may be very helpful for the processing 266 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: of traumatic events, and um they be very helpful specifically 267 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: for PTSD. So I'm you, I've never done psychedelics and 268 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: actually thought that it sounded like a crazy idea, and 269 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: it first was very skeptical of it. But as I 270 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: as I opened myself up to learn more about this 271 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: and I did UM the training to become a Psychedelic 272 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: psychotherapist UM, I was profoundly struck by the power of it. 273 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: And I also got to participate as part of the 274 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: therapist training and an f D A approved study where 275 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: I too could take the psychedelic in the context of psychotherapy, 276 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: and it was very meaningful and powerful, and it taught 277 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: me as much about psychotherapy as it taught me about 278 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: psychedelics and the real work that has to be done. 279 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: But what happens in a psychedelic psychotherapy journey with the 280 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: right intention in setting is that people process not only 281 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: their own experiences, but it's very much in the context 282 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: of a connection, of being part of a chain, of 283 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: being linked to the past, and also in my case, 284 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: since I have children grown up children to to to them, 285 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of people who take psychedelics often talk 286 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: about the fact that parental traumas come to them and 287 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: that they learned things about ancestors or ancestors speak to them, 288 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: and depending on the type of psychedelic that they take, 289 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: This could be very disembodied UM or it could be 290 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: more kind of with yourself intact. But almost everyone has 291 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: this kind of experience that there was this tremendous before 292 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: about them that matters. And also for those who have 293 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: children the after and seeing fathers or and mother's and 294 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: grandparents and being able to get reassurance or being told 295 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: that some of the struggles you're having now I had them, 296 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: says you're maybe grandmother or or father or grandfather, or 297 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 1: you have the wisdom to cope with it, or you 298 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: know some secret. Usually a very comforting message, even if 299 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: the disclosure is traumatic. But the overall experience is that 300 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: of you can survive this, and that you are not alone, 301 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: and that you are part of the universe that holds 302 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: you and that carries you, and you're not like this 303 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: isolated individual particle, but you're part of this network and 304 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: that your experiences, good or bad, are part of that 305 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: network too. And so I thought, this is a lot 306 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: better than the treatments we have to offer trau of 307 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: survivors today. UM that you know work for many people. 308 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: I don't. I really want to be very careful to 309 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: not disparage what we currently have, but for many trauma 310 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: survivors with PTSD, they've had a lot of therapy, They've 311 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: gone to a lot of UM, different kinds of therapeutic approaches. UM. 312 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: The ones that are most recommended, which are cognitive behavioral 313 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: therapy UM and UM antidepressants UM. You know leave something 314 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: to be desired. I mean with the cognitive behavioral therapy, 315 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: you have to narrate your traumatic experience, and many people 316 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: don't want to do that many many times because of 317 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the avoidance, because they get distressed, and so that's not helpful. 318 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if you if you happen to be someone 319 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: that did cognitive behavioral therapy and found it helpful, that's great. 320 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: But a lot of people haven't. And antidepressants are just 321 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: not right. I know that they're wreck of mended in 322 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: the guidelines UM, but unless uh, for many people, they're 323 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: probably treating a depression or an anxiety disorder that is 324 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: co occurring with PTSD. PTSD, you've got to confront what happened, 325 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: and sometimes confronting it in an altered state can be 326 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: very gentle. You have a lot of compassion for yourself. UM. 327 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: Psychedelics often make you want to bond with your therapist more. 328 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: You feel more trusting, you feel ass afraid to confront 329 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: UM things that might be very painful. So I'm very 330 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: excited about doing this kind of research and as always 331 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: figuring out why it works. And I actually believe that 332 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: this will be something that up be genetics explains the 333 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: kind of transformation that people report when they do try 334 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: psychedelic I want to actually say to your audience that 335 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: right now these treatments are not legal, and they will 336 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: be in the very near future hopefully UM. The f 337 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: d A has given breakthrough status to m d m 338 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: A for PTSD and philocybin for treatment resistant depression. People 339 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: are working really hard to do the science that will 340 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: make these UM therapies available legally. And again, participating in 341 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: research is one way UM that you can get this 342 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: treatment in a very safe way, and so I wanted 343 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: to just make sure people know that because if you 344 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: go to your provider and say I'd like to try 345 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: some psychedelics in my therapies, they may not be able 346 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: to offer it to you. Yeah. And also one of 347 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: the things that you that you note that I've read 348 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: is that UM this kind of therapy, when it does 349 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: become UM legal and more readily available, can can often 350 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: be a one time or you know, a couple of times, 351 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: as opposed to you know, taking antidepressants for you know, 352 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: for years, or that it's a that it's something that 353 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: you do that doesn't promote the feeling of oh gosh, 354 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: I can't wait to do that again. It's more of 355 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: a synthesizing. Um, it's a tool, I guess it's it 356 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: is a tool, and that is why I'm so excited 357 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: about it because it will really revolutionize mental health right now. 358 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: What we try to do in mental health is we 359 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: try to dampen symptoms that are problematic. Um, if you're depressed, 360 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: we can dull you a little bit so maybe you 361 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: don't feel it, or same with anxiety, or maybe if 362 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: you can't sleep, give you a medicine to sleep. And 363 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: I'm not knocking those things that can be very very 364 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: important to people that have those symptoms. What if you 365 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: could have an experience that gives you insight and um. 366 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: The psychologist stand Graff said about psychedelics that they are 367 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: to psychiatry what the microscope is to biology and the 368 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: telescope is to astronomy. And I absolutely love that description 369 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: because how you make progress in therapy is that you 370 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: learn how to see something differently, you don't have to 371 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: keep looking in the microscope and looking in the telescope, 372 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: and then once you know it, you don't have to 373 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: keep knowing it all over again. And I've drawn an 374 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: analogy between a traumatic experience and a psychedelic experience and 375 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: that both are generally very transformative to people. And so 376 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: the initial question that I had when I entered the field, 377 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: which was how can an event that happened in the 378 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: past continue to pack so much punch? And the answer 379 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: to that turned out to be because the epigenetic changes 380 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: that occur as a result of that experience that then 381 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: take out a life of its own. The same could 382 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: probably be said about psychedelic psychotherapy, that it's an event 383 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: that packs such a punch. But what's important is not 384 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: only what happens at the moment phy a flight aspect 385 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: that this is you know, your brain on drugs aspect, 386 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: but the insights that are then gleaned that you continue 387 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: to work with um but for the positive and so 388 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: really we're talking about a very parallel process in so 389 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: to me, there is such an aesthetic quality about that 390 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: that feels so true and so real that when you 391 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: when you've learned the wrong thing following trauma, the thing 392 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: that's holding you back. You have to have an experience 393 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: that will help you learn the right thing and then 394 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: you can get back on track or go to a different, 395 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: better place. And I think that that is what I'm 396 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: hearing from so many people who have really done this 397 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: work and and it just really resonates. So our center 398 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: is going to be not only about trying to do 399 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: the clinical trials for trauma survivors, not hopefully not only 400 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: trauma survivors with PTSD UM, but also really trying to 401 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: kind of make the scientific observations where we can understand 402 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: what the biology of healing and resilience are all about. 403 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: And this is a narrative that's really been missing from 404 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: our our dialogue in psychiatry. We've been talking a lot about, 405 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, the biology of depression, in the biology of 406 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: anxiety or eating disorders or or PTSD. What if the 407 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: fact that people have those biologic changes doesn't mean that 408 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: those changes need to be reversed per se, but that 409 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: a completely different process of healing needs to happen that 410 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: can really overcompensate for the fact that those changes are present, right, 411 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: and so I'm drawn to yoga also um certainly in 412 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: the context of trauma, because one of the things that's 413 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: accomplished with yoga really is to accept your body and 414 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: also the places that you carry tensions and traumas in 415 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: your body and be able to just breathe through it 416 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: and regulate it. So what if healing really involves being 417 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: able to do things for your body that really helps 418 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: your body through the tough times that are associated with 419 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: traumatic reminders or addictions or anxieties or other kinds of 420 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: things that have cropped up probably for very good reason, 421 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: be be they environmental or genetic. I love what you 422 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: said to about about the experience being as part of 423 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: a chain. You know that there's a before that, there's 424 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: a before you, and there's an after you. There's something 425 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: so expansive about that that. I mean, to me, it 426 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: feels calming and healing even to hear that, because it's 427 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: because there's no question that that's true. There's a before 428 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: us and there's an after us. And to be able 429 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: to actually access that, it's like it's like increasing the field, 430 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: like just increasing the energetic field all around us. Look, 431 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 1: you're born into a party that's happened without you, party 432 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: before it's over, and then that's and that's the way 433 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: it is, right right, Rachel Yohoda, this has been such 434 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: a pleasure and provocative and and just illuminating talking with you. 435 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm really grateful to you for taking the time and 436 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: giving so much of yourself. Oh it was fun for 437 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: me to really really was. Thank you so much. Thanks 438 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: for listening to my conversation with Rachel Yehuda, and please 439 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: keep in mind that season five of Family Secrets will 440 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: drop on April one, with ten all new episodes. For 441 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 442 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 443 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: favorite shows.