WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 9 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:04.600 On April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:08.039 killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:13.400 was arrested. Case closed right James Sylvay was a pawn 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.520 for the official story. Some of the evidence, as far 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.520 as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.959 is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.520 Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:32.879 wherever you get your podcasts. This is Roxanne Gay, the 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.320 host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.879 of your Dreams. Each week I talked to an interesting 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.640 person about feminism, race, writing in books, and art, food, 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:49.920 pop culture, and yes, politics, we can't escape politics. Listen 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.680 to the Luminary original podcast to Roxanne Gay Agenda every 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.600 Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:03.880 wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Gonzalez, the host 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.479 of s i s new podcast, Sports Illustrated Weekly. Sports 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.759 Illustrated has delivered some of the best storytelling in sports 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.080 for seventy years and now that continues on our show. 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.200 Each week will dive deep into the best stories from 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:21.040 around the sports world. Sports Illustrated Weekly is available every 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.720 Wednesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:32.240 wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe. Now, Hey, everybody, Robert 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.280 Evans here, and I wanted to let you know. This 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.800 is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.560 that just happened is here in one convenient and with 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.760 somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.320 a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.280 to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:51.440 nothing new here for you, but you can make your 0:01:51.440 --> 0:02:02.760 own decisions. Welcome to it happens sometimes the podcast where 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:08.799 it's happened. Shit, Um, Garrison, Chris, somebody, somebody, somebody picked 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.639 this up. This is on you. Anybody anybody got help 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.440 out of this one? Okay, Well, you know what podcasts 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.000 this is. You've been listening, presumably for months, or this 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.520 is your first time listening. If so, I've probably lost 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.920 you already with that Bush League introduction. Jesus christ Um, 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.560 I'm Robert Evans. This is a show about how things 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.800 fall apart and how to maybe stop them from falling 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.760 apart as much. And today we're talking to some people 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.880 who were in kind of the best case scenario situation 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:43.720 for having a bunch of authoritarians try to UH dominate 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.680 your country, by which I mean we're talking to some 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.640 Chilean activists who who who won? Um, inasmuch as it's 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.760 it's possible to win in the world. UM, it's a 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.880 pretty exciting situation. UM happening there. I'm excited to introduce 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:59.360 people to like what's been going on. But first I 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.960 want to introduce our guests for today. UM, y'all wanna 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:08.799 you'll wanna say hello. Hello. My name is Jeremiah. I'm 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.160 from the United States. I've lived in Chile for the 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:18.280 last ten years, and I'm Stephanie Ahead, I'm a Chilian 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:23.960 and I'm leaving here with with my my husband. And Hi. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.240 I'm Nicholas. Um, I'm too, and I have been living 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.880 here for my whole life. Yeah. So we started a 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:37.480 small group called Unitos to do some activism to try 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:42.080 to get out the vote for the Plelicito, to try 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:48.880 to UH last year to get the constitution approved to 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:53.320 be voted on, and and it was successful. So we 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:55.440 are proud of the small bit of work that we 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.960 did to help that happen. And so today the constitution 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.160 is being written and it's a very exciting time. Yeah. 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:04.800 And I want to let's pull back a little bit 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.720 because the last time we we talked about UM, Chile 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.800 on behind the bastards in two thousand nineteen, when UM 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.160 a protest that started as some I think it's fair 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.159 to say zoomers protesting a fair increase by like jumping 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.279 fares at the at the underground the subway, UM was 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:25.280 met with police doing police stuff, which was met with 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.520 people taking to the streets and very significant numbers, which 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:30.760 is the thing that by now a lot more people 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.719 are experienced with. But unlike kind of what happened in 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.839 my country, you did it. You made him blink, and 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.039 and that's what the plebiscite is, right, Like the there 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.640 was an agreement made to give because Chile was still, 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:45.480 if I'm not mistaken, governed under the same constitution that 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:50.719 that Pinochet had had, right UM, and Pinochet famously not 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:56.720 a great guy. UM, So I wonder if you might 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.520 give us kind of an overview of y'all's experience during 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.000 that time time, from like the start of the protests 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.800 to oh ship, we might actually get to change things 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.640 at a pretty fundamental level in our country. UM. Yeah, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.560 so it was incredible time about exactly two years ago, 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.520 so just the eighth of October was just a two 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:21.120 year anniversary. And um, as you said, it all started 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:26.800 with um literal high schoolers, sixteen year olds who were 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:32.160 protesting a thirty paso increase, which is, you know, like 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.960 increase in the metro. But we of course have one 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.680 of the most expensive metros in the world and a 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:45.320 very low um uh minimum wage here. And so as 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.799 you said, they went out there and started to jump 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.480 the turnstiles, but in massive groups, hundreds of them going 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:57.320 to the metro together and all jumping um together. And 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:04.919 in response, the government ended up closing the metros. And 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.440 so it was this Friday night, UM, and we were 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:12.239 having dinner and uh, suddenly the metros were all closed 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.400 and everyone had to just walk home from work or 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.039 dinner or where they were. And that was kind of 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.800 the beginning of everything. And it was almost like the 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.760 government brought it on themselves, because suddenly there were thousands 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.000 of people in the streets just because they had no 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:32.200 other way to get home and from there, Uh, they 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:38.000 there were protests, and the protests were met with extreme 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:42.560 police oppression and water cannons and tear gas and all 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:49.479 of that, and UM. Eventually it led to one March, 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.599 which had over a million people throughout Chile marching and 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:58.320 UM a series of marches and protests basically every week 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:05.159 for months. UM and finally UH it came down to UH. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.880 They announced that there would be this Plebilist site and 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.640 it was a vote, UM, yes or no to create 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:17.480 a new constitution, because yes, Chile is still There were 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.640 some reforms in the early two thousands to the constitution, 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:26.000 but UM still U we live under the constitution written 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.960 by him Gustman, UM kind of you know, Cha's right 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.800 hand man, and we happen to live. Nico is our 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.440 good friend and also our next door neighbor, and we 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:42.320 live about four blocks from the Plaza UM formerly Plaza Italia. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:48.560 Now the protesters have deemed it Plaza Dignidad, and so 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.640 we've been just in the middle of it. And UH 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.960 for for a couple of months, our our whole neighborhood 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.720 was like a war zone and UH, just really crazy 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:03.000 protests every single day and and tear gas and all 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.640 of that, and it was it was really intense for 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:12.239 a while, and it still is. You know. UM, last Friday, UH, 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.040 we you know, were met with tear gas and water 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.280 cannons again. So it's it's it's even though the kind 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:25.360 the constitution is being written again and the pledgliscite was 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.360 a year ago, but the police are still out there 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:34.760 being bastards. Yeah. I'm curious what each of you kind 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.520 of sees as the moment when or if you because 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:39.960 maybe I was going too optimistic, right Like I guess 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.880 I'm wondering, do you think that a corner has been turned, 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.040 and and if so, what was kind of the moment 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.000 each of you felt that like, oh my god, we 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.079 might actually this isn't just gonna be like showing up 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:52.679 to get the ship kicked out of us. We were 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.520 going to get somewhat least of what we're fighting for. 0:08:56.320 --> 0:09:00.720 Wait technic Yeah, I mean I think that like that 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:06.720 particular moment was when we finally went to the elections 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.120 to who you call the referendum for the for this 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:15.400 new constitution, and we were kind of skeptic about the 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:23.160 percentage of people who approved this new constitution because a 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.440 few months ago or a few weeks before this referendum, 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.480 we have like continuing questions polls. We had the polls 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.600 and they were kind of fifty, so we're kind of 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.079 skeptic about are we gonna have a new constitution or not? 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.240 And that the same night, I mean, the process very quick, 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.840 so after I know, the this thing close at six 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.679 pm and then you have the results like three hours later. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.800 So on the same day we're having the results and 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:57.200 it was like eighty against twenties. So it was like 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.600 kind of shocking. I mean, we I think that nobody 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.880 was expecting to have this kind of eight percent of 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.959 the people until they were I want to throw to 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.520 the being the you know, tech constitution. So it's kind 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:17.080 of like, I know, I will say that the best moment. Yeah, 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:23.600 there's this. There's an American, a deceased American um sociologist 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:25.800 who who wrote an essay that I find quite influential 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.160 called the Shock of Victory, and it's about how activists 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:33.480 often failed to take advantage of of their momentum, like 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.280 because they're kind of surprised at the success early on, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.120 and then they don't properly take advantage of what they 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.440 have when they have it, and and you know, progress 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:43.559 gets turned back, which I think we've seen happen in 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.800 the United States in the wake of of what happened 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.520 here last summer. Why do you think that that hasn't 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.960 happened in Chile? What do you think it is that 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.920 that that enabled UM, you you all to actually keep 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.719 the pressure on and and take advantage of that that 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.000 mint in time, which which never I guess that's what 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:04.760 I'm impressed with the most, is that you you all 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:08.040 did manage to make that momentum work for you rather 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.400 than kind of letting it pull you off balance. And 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.160 I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.640 on how UM. I guess for me, what I think 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.640 it's lost a lot in the conversation is UM the 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:26.240 premier LINEA, so the first line of defense. And so 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.760 you have UM a bunch of young people, anarchists, you know, 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.360 just crazy young people who went out there to fight 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:38.920 with the cops every single day, and it was really 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:43.120 impressive and a lot of times we uh, I don't know, 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.000 I feel like they don't get the credit they deserve 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.640 because you know, they're the delintements and that you know, 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.680 we talk a lot about the big marches when there 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.079 was a million people in the street and and obviously, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:12:01.040 like Nico said, winning the vote by seventy percent showed 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.600 that it was something that everyone in Chile wanted. But 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.920 it never would have happened if it weren't for the 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.760 this small group of of fighters who were there every 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:20.240 single day, facing tear gas and water cannons and police 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.640 beating them up with you know, throwing rocks and stuff 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.040 like that. So I think that's the main thing. It 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.000 wasn't like once a month or even once a week. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.120 It was every single day, and they were there on 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.200 the front line, and it none of this would be 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.280 possible without them. That's fascinating to me because obviously things 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.840 like that, groups like that existed here, like in Portland, 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:46.840 went every night for not as long, but for not 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.240 an insignificant amount of time, and it was those same 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.000 It was a lot of these kind of young anarchists, 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.280 front liners who were willing to go toe to toe 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.120 with the cops every night. But you didn't have you 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.640 didn't have that kind of larger, more moderate popular lists 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.320 backing them up. And I guess one of the things 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.440 I'm curious about is what was kind of the you 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.480 mentioned you don't think they get the credit they deserve. 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.280 Was there a broad attitude that like, these people are 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.600 the ones going face to face with the cops so 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:14.360 that those of us, you know, people who are older, 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.040 people who aren't and it's going to ship people who 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.040 can't physically take as much abuse can still show up 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:23.000 or was it. I'm kind of curious how how those 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.640 people represented what they were doing and how it how 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.520 it was seen by most of kind of the more 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.520 moderate people who still supported change around you, because that 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.719 that dynamic exists in any mass protest movement, and I'm 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.120 it worked where you are, and I'm trying to get 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.240 a handle on maybe how it was different than what 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.200 I saw in Portland. Uh so now a lot of 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:47.960 them are in Yo and um or without one eye, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:53.720 so is uh, it's really terrible because we have all 0:13:53.840 --> 0:14:01.439 these new beautiful process but we are you know, uh, 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:08.320 really completely democracy with liberty with the for this guy 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:14.800 or or democracy for all this um person that loose 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:24.160 eyes or uh yeah and everyone that was injured. Um so, yeah, 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.040 a lot of protests nowadays. Actually, I think today right 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.000 now there's a protest going on to free the political 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:38.320 prisoners um and uh. But yeah, I mean I think 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:43.040 they're even among you know, obviously of the country voted 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.680 for the new constitution. So there's a lot of different 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.000 points of view there. But but yeah, there was division 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.080 even among the left. A lot of people said, you know, 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.360 this is not the form of this is not the 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.160 way to protest, and we should not be violent and 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.560 you know, burning things and um. But but there was 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.800 a lot I mean, you saw a lot of the 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.800 opposite where people were were saying, just as you said, 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.920 like those out there on the front line are the 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.600 reason that the older people and others can come out 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:19.360 and feel safer to protest because the Primary LINEA is 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:24.280 kind of taking the brunt of the violence from the police, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.760 and that allows the older people and those who are 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.560 are less confrontational to be out there in protest. So 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.600 for me, some of some of the most inspiring signs 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.680 I remember seeing are like folks that are eighty years 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.480 old and they have signs that say, you know, Gracia 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.720 sala Primary LINEA. You know, like thank you to the 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.360 front liners who who are taking that violence so that 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.280 they are able the others to to protest um in 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.520 a more peaceful way. That's such a fascinating situation to 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.200 me that you've got You've got these these more radical 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:05.640 frontliners who were, as you say, critical in allowing this, 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.000 this really groundbreaking change to occur in your society. But 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.440 at the same time, things haven't changed enough that Number one, 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:13.640 the cops will beat the ship out of them, I'm 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:17.360 guessing are still largely employed, um and and a bunch 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.440 of them are in jail. Do you have much hope 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.320 that at the very least there will be something to 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.360 like get these people out or is it is that 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.680 maybe a bridge. I don't know, I don't know your 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.360 country obviously, Well, you know, I'm curious, like, do you 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:34.800 feel like there's much hope in pushing for that, because 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:39.160 it seems like, you know, those people need to be free. Yeah. 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.920 I mean, most of these guys who are in prison 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.920 and they have spent like, oh no, like twelve months 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.760 in prison without any evidence, so only the world of 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.560 the cops against them. So after I know, like thirteen 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.440 months for two months, they will finally get released because 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.840 they have they have no evidence, or they could they 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.120 you may find that the police they made up all 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:07.400 the evidence, so they they finally go out. But I mean, 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.400 you spend like almost a year in prison, that's yeah, 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.479 it's clearly like political. I mean you're a political prisoner, 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.760 like they got They got you in prison with no evidence, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:23.040 without any probit process. They keep you in prison for 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.760 a year. Um, who's gonna pay for that? I mean 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:31.040 you lost a year. Yeah, Like we're talking so far 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.760 about the sacrifice is made here. What do you think 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.879 with this new constitution? You and your your your fellow Chileans. 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:39.600 What are you gonna get? Like? How what are the 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.280 changes that are seemed to be most concrete and the 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.360 ones that you think are most important. I think already 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:52.280 it's been groundbreaking. I believe it's the only constitution ever 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:58.520 to be written by a plurality of women and and 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:04.360 also to have a representation from the indigenous peoples. And 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:10.320 so it's already been very um inspiring and groundbreaking. Um. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:16.000 The President of the Constitutional Convention is a very inspiring 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:23.800 um Mapuche leader woman. UM. And the good thing is 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:31.600 that the right um it represents less than one third 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:35.240 of the Constitutional Convention, so they don't have the power 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:41.400 to block um anything uh as far as only by 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:45.239 the right. So we will see. But they literally just 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.400 started writing the constitution last week. So yeah, yeah, it's 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.800 still but that's I mean, that's that's a significant Is 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.520 there a kind of a broad agreement that one of 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.760 the things that needed to happen here was a redress 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.800 of grievances between the indigenous people UM and the and 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.639 the state because it's it sounds like that's a significant 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.440 chunk of what's what's been already agreed upon. Just but 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:12.080 like how this is coming together? Yeah so, uh, well, 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.280 Nicole probably tell a lot more about this than I could. 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:20.280 But Um, there's a big deal with the United with 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:26.040 the indigenous people in the South and the government UM 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:31.199 basically waging war against the indigenous people. Actually, uh, two 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:37.200 weeks ago, Nia the current right wing president UM declared 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.159 a state of emergency in the South and he just 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.879 extended it for fifteen more days. So we have the 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:46.879 military in the south, um, and they are you know, 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:52.520 with the tanks and attaching attacking the the Mapuche and 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:57.120 other indigenous people there. And uh so Yeah, a big 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:02.720 aspect of Chile right now is the the the fight 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.240 between and and the oppression of the government against the 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.760 native people. And and it's a cultural thing too. I mean, 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.520 it's it's really heavy everyone. Most people here in Chile 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:19.879 are are mixed, you know, between the the natives and 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.440 and the white men and everything. And you know the 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:28.520 Europeans um, but the Mapuche and the other indigenous groups 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.840 have really not um received a lot of respect in 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:37.560 the last thirty years. And and so yeah, that's a 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.879 big aspect. Yeah, I'll say, like for me, it's very 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.760 inspiring to have like the pressing of this new constitution 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:51.400 to be uh I'm a picture woman. Oh um, yeah, 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:55.199 I mean I guess that the most important thing, like 0:20:55.520 --> 0:21:00.280 the thing that this indigenous people want to call is 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.480 the land. I mean land for them is the most 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.840 important thing. And that's what the government only for the 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:10.479 last three hundred years they have been taken from to them. Um. 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.280 They are now like trying to claim again their their 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:17.920 their space. So I mean let's call that this new 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.359 constitution will bring them back their land, um, their respect 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.520 that they deserve. Now there's been a lot of discussion 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.680 about this new constitution as I think the term used 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:32.680 as an ecological constitution um, and it's it's the necessity 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.199 of it addressing a lot of the climate, not just 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.040 climate change, but like a lot of the things caused 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:41.560 by climate change, like unequal access to water. Um. There's 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.600 been discussion in the Asio Coasta of of the f 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.120 I m A and GEO has Has is arguing currently 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.600 that the Constitution needs to enshrine a human right to 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.720 water and recognize it as a common good. Um. It's 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.000 obviously again they're writing it this week, so it's kind 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.520 of unclear if that's going to happen. Um. But I'm 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:02.720 I'm wondering kind of what you what y'all think it's 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.639 actually because as you've talked about, you know, with the 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.840 protests ongoing, with the military being deployed in the South, 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.040 this is not a finished fight. Um, It's just a 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:13.920 fight that a lot of progress has been made on. 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.040 What do you think is reasonable to expect from this 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.000 new constitution in terms of of of climate change, in 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:24.399 terms of ecological justice. I will so I think the 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:29.240 right of the of water. H So water is privatized here, 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.040 so chileans here in Santiago, we have to pay a 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:38.800 Spanish company too for our water. Sure. UM. I would say, 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:43.919 like the economy in this country is based on like strativism, 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.879 So you have like the most productive thing is mining, 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.560 and then you have like the forest three. Um, all 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.399 these things like they have an enormous impact on the 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:55.959 environment and the people. Until I mean the people who 0:22:56.040 --> 0:23:01.240 live right next to these kind of things, they don't 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:05.840 get anything from them. I mean, the poorest places are 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:08.879 like right next to the first three, rightness to the mining. 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:13.119 So it's kind of like we're creating a lot of 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.160 income from these things, but we're not getting anything from 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:20.159 them and all. I mean. Also, it's not like a 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.040 thing like let's get everything back to the state, I 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:26.359 mean to the state, because it's it's more than that. 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:34.200 It's just like like, um, ecological equality equity. Yeah. Yeah, 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:36.600 it's not saying we should take all of the private 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.320 water and give it to the state as much as 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:40.760 it's saying everyone who lives here has a has a 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:45.040 personal right to enough water to survive. Yeah. So you 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:49.439 have rounds where small little towns and they don't have 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:52.679 any water to drink because all of their water is 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:57.720 to the going to the farm owned by Nestley to make, 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.600 you know, to grow avocados to sell to Europe and 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:08.280 the United States. So um, yeah, it's it's uh, it's 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.320 it's a pretty crazy thing. One of the things that's 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:14.840 most interesting to me about your situation is you you 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.840 are in a place where not entirely similar dissimilar from 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:21.000 the United States, you have a police in a military 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:26.000 that are heavily dominated by by right wing ideology. Obviously, 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:28.280 like the United States is partly responsible for that. In 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.640 your case, we we funded it for a very long time. 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:36.760 Um and uh, and so it's still an ongoing fight. 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:40.600 But at the same time, clearly the people are unhappy 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:43.720 enough with that situation and hold like that they were 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:46.800 able to make they were able to force the folks 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.920 with with guns to um, to recognize that they can't 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:54.639 hold on to everything that they wanted to hold onto. 0:24:54.680 --> 0:25:03.800 And I, I guess, I'm what, how can we do that? Um? 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:06.439 I'm very impressed by like, and you know, watching from 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.720 the sidelines, I was just so happy to see this 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:12.440 not go where I think we were all scared it 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.560 might go, you know, in either the direction with like Syria, 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.360 where it turns into this horrible blood bath or where 0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:21.919 everything gets crushed you know it. And and I I'm wondering, 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:25.360 like why you think on a on a broader scale, 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:30.120 what do you think was responsible for those people with 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:34.760 access to the guns deciding we can't hold onto this. Like, Yeah, 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:38.640 I'm just I'm so intensely curious about that because it's 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:40.520 it's it's important for a lot of people and a 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:43.639 lot of other parts of the world. Yeah, I don't know. 0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:46.040 I mean, I think it was just the protest and 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:50.520 the daily protests and and just getting pressure, keeping the 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.679 pressure on. And at some point, you know, it's like, hey, 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:56.639 this is not good for the economy, you know, like 0:25:56.920 --> 0:26:00.639 so all of the rich people, um, and you know, 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:04.560 the ten families that are in control of you know, 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:09.800 sixty or seventy percent of the wealth of the country. Yeah, 0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:15.520 and they at some point had to recognize that this 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:19.080 was something that that you know, had reached its boiling 0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:22.760 point and and that they could no longer respond with 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:25.800 just force because they tried it and it didn't work 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:28.760 for months and it was just months and months of 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:34.720 protests and um and uh. And obviously that caused a 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:36.919 hit to the economy, and that caused a hit to 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:41.800 the wallets of of the ultra rich. And so at 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:46.360 some point they realized that they had no other move 0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:50.800 to play than to accept it in some way and uh. 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:54.240 And that's how we got, you know, this new constitution 0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:59.040 that is being written. One thing I was interested about 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:02.240 is did geography of the protest because I know Chile 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:05.879 very urban population. And also it was is it like 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:07.960 it's like a quarter of the population or something lives 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:16.960 in Santiago, like in that area. And I'm yeah, so sorry. 0:27:17.000 --> 0:27:18.679 I just want to note, if I'm not mistaken, there 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:22.280 were only five. You have kind of communes instead of states, 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:25.720 is what they're called. Um, like ten voted in favor 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:27.760 of the referendum and only five voted against it. If 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:33.040 I'm not mistaken, Well, communes are within cities like different 0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:38.080 It's like Burroughs in New York, but we have different 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:43.360 regions instead of states. And um, and I think they 0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:47.240 all voted. Yeah, there might be like seven voted. But 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:51.960 what you might be thinking of, um, yeah, Robert, you 0:27:52.040 --> 0:27:56.240 might be thinking of communes in Santiago. Where Santiago is 0:27:56.400 --> 0:28:01.040 very Um. So it's all on the Rio Mapocho, the 0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:04.880 river which goes east to west across the city. And 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:08.840 basically you have this like very rich part on the 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:12.320 east and up into the hills and um, and then 0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:15.959 it gets poorer and poorer as you go to the west. 0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:21.880 And um. Yeah. For the vote for the constitution, Um, 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:27.359 it was everyone voted for the constitution except for these communes, 0:28:27.600 --> 0:28:31.680 these ultra rich in the east. Oh, wow, amazing. Okay. 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:35.400 Thing something I was curious about this was so when 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:38.680 when the protests were going on, um, because you know, 0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:42.640 Chile's had like huge protests before, I mean even the 0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:46.440 last decade. What I was interested stid also with this 0:28:46.480 --> 0:28:49.080 time is like, well, hey, what do you think it's 0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:51.800 different about this than say like two thousand eleven wasn't thirteen? 0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:55.280 And then be in terms of like the geographic breakdown 0:28:55.320 --> 0:28:57.440 of where people are and where they're going? Is it 0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:00.160 that you know? So so you have this have this 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:03.760 classified in the city, but we're we're the working class districts, 0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:07.920 like we're people staying there in the stra structure where 0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:12.040 they like moving from those places like to protest inside 0:29:12.040 --> 0:29:17.360 of the richer urban areas. I would say, like, I mean, yeah, 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:20.280 we have like many protests in the past, but there 0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:24.600 were more kind of like I don't know, like students protests, 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:28.160 and then you have like you know, like the university protests. 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:33.360 But when we have like this protest like that the 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:35.920 one we have on to Townside nineteen, it's like something 0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:37.760 that unites everyone. I mean, you don't have to be 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.400 a student, you don't have to go to university to protest. 0:29:40.440 --> 0:29:43.440 I mean, it's something that it's affecting everyone. I mean 0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:47.880 the fairs of the Metro, they affect everything, and they 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:51.640 in equality in the country affects everyone. So UM, I 0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:54.760 mean that I guess that's that's the thing that make 0:29:54.880 --> 0:30:00.840 this protests of the todasan nineteen unique in this term. Yeah, 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:03.520 and I think it was actually a problem when all 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:05.720 the protests were happening. A lot of people were saying, 0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:08.040 we can't keep going to the plaza. You know, the 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.240 cops are just going to wait for us in the plaza, 0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:12.560 and you know it's going to be a ship show, 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:16.320 and we need to you know, protest all over And 0:30:16.720 --> 0:30:21.120 there were protests across Chile and every single major city. UM, 0:30:21.640 --> 0:30:24.440 but I will say the majority of the protests have 0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:29.040 been um here in the plaza and close to Lamoneta 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:33.880 where the presidential palace and UM but some of the 0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:38.600 most memoriable protests and and the Coast and Eera Center, 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:42.080 the tallest building in Latin America, which is a mall 0:30:42.480 --> 0:30:49.600 and a monument to this idea that Pinera has of 0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:54.320 UM the way of Chile being an oasis in South America. 0:30:54.600 --> 0:30:58.680 We're not like other countries where we're like the United States, 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:05.280 you know, where this capital is some capitalists oasis and exactly. Um. 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:08.320 But but yeah, so some of the most memorial protests, 0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:12.000 they weren't super common, but we're exactly that where the 0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:14.640 people said, you know what, we're not going to the plaza, 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:17.520 We're going to Coast Nara Center, or we're going to 0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:21.840 Vita Kara, We're going to where the millionaires live, where 0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:26.160 they work. And um. That those were really powerful. And 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:29.800 so that's when you started to see like all of 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:34.720 those banks and malls and just blocks and blocks of 0:31:34.880 --> 0:31:39.120 what the rich folk like to call Sanhattan, you know, 0:31:39.280 --> 0:31:44.320 Santiago Manhattan, the skyscraper part of the city, and it 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:49.120 was just all boarded up, you know. Um because there 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:52.160 there were definitely a couple of weeks where the protests 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:56.320 went that way and and and yeah, it was inspiring. 0:31:57.040 --> 0:31:59.520 What I keep coming back to when I look about 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:03.360 like why it worked, It wasn't because the front liners 0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:05.560 just kept the pressure up, because the front liners did. 0:32:05.560 --> 0:32:07.720 In a lot of places here, the front liners stayed 0:32:07.720 --> 0:32:10.880 out well after everyone else stopped coming out. It's that 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:15.840 the population kept up the pressure. Like the there were 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:20.600 like Chile as a as a as a nation, as 0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:23.360 a as a people kept up the pressure in in 0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:26.560 a in a pretty significant way, um as opposed to 0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:29.960 kind of fading back after the first couple of weeks. 0:32:30.160 --> 0:32:33.800 And I mean it, I think I'm sure the question 0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:35.560 of why it happened has a lot to do with, 0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:37.760 like you said, inequality, you know, things that have been 0:32:37.800 --> 0:32:40.840 going on for decades. It's it's a it's a complex situation, 0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:42.960 but it does seem like that's one of the big 0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:47.680 takeaways that if you can you can secure even in 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:51.760 even in a pretty terrifying situation, a lot of concessions, 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:55.120 a lot of of what you need. But but people 0:32:55.200 --> 0:33:00.680 have to have to keep putting themselves out there. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:03.200 I would say it's a couple of things. Um. One 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.120 is um as you mentioned, I think it's like the 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:10.440 culture of protests here, you know, especially in the last 0:33:10.440 --> 0:33:15.960 ten years, like um with the revolution, Penguin and mices 0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:23.440 inn um, you know, and there were and the feminist 0:33:23.920 --> 0:33:29.000 protests them and um. So it's it's not something that 0:33:29.080 --> 0:33:32.400 just happened two years ago. It's the last decade or 0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:36.360 two has has been the people, especially the young people, 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:41.320 going out there and protesting. And that's That's one thing 0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:47.480 that's inspiring about boris the candidate for president. The election 0:33:47.560 --> 0:33:51.160 is next month, So the left wing candidate, Boridge, and 0:33:51.200 --> 0:33:53.320 he came out of that movement. He was a student 0:33:53.880 --> 0:33:57.720 protester and a leader of the student movement, and so 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:01.040 I think it's like it grew out of that, it 0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:04.880 grew out of kids in high school saying this is 0:34:04.920 --> 0:34:07.800 just what we do. This is normal. We go out 0:34:07.840 --> 0:34:11.520 there and protest when when ship happens. And and the 0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:14.120 other thing is, yeah, you know, we always say here 0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:18.280 in Chile after the protests started, Um, it's not thirty 0:34:18.360 --> 0:34:24.160 pace those it's thirty years, you know, thirty years of neoliberalism, 0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:28.320 of this revolving door of center right and center left 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:33.719 and and just continuing on with the um economic oppression. 0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:36.360 And the other thing I feel like people don't understand 0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:39.880 is that, uh, you know, people either think Chile is 0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:43.400 like the United States or they think it's like Peru 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:47.520 or something, you know, and it's really neither. In Chile, 0:34:48.120 --> 0:34:53.359 the minimum wage is half of what the United States is, 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:58.920 which is already terrible. But um, the cost of living 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:02.920 here is almost the same as you guys in Portland. 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:06.160 I mean, not the housing probably, but like you know, 0:35:06.320 --> 0:35:09.759 food and stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's like Europe. You know, 0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:12.359 I could move to Berlin and live cheaper than here. 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:17.440 You know, it is hard to of three times that, 0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:20.839 you know. So so I think it's that's the other 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:25.120 thing is people just they they had no other choice, 0:35:25.160 --> 0:35:28.520 you know, and we're just bore down by by thirty years, 0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:32.440 you know, after twenty years of the dictatorship, thirty years 0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:40.320 of this terrible wages and um just neoliberalism, and so 0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:43.600 so I think it's it's partially that and partially just 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.160 like the culture of protests that grew out of the 0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:50.959 student movements in in the early two thousand's, mm hmm. Yeah. 0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:53.839 There was one thing that was interested also about that 0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:56.879 I don't remember seeing much of at the time, was 0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:01.560 what was too late organized labor doing during this That's 0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:06.040 a good question. Honestly, labor hasn't been a big part 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:08.799 of the protest, at least from my point of view. 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:13.839 You know, I don't know, Yeah, I mean, it took 0:36:13.840 --> 0:36:18.200 a pretty strong hit during the Pinochet years off, I'm 0:36:18.200 --> 0:36:20.799 not mistaken, So there was kind of that, Like I 0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:25.799 guess that does make sense, sure, Yeah, Honestly, I don't 0:36:25.800 --> 0:36:28.120 know a whole lot about labor history here in Chile. 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:30.680 But um, but yeah, it definitely is. I mean you 0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:35.360 would see, you know, um union groups in the streets 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:40.640 here and there, but um, but but definitely they weren't 0:36:40.800 --> 0:36:43.920 a leading voice in the protest. I would say. Yeah, So, 0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:46.400 I guess that leads into the other. I guess one 0:36:46.719 --> 0:36:50.239 of the other things that, from from my understanding, has 0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:54.120 been happening all across Latin America, but but in in 0:36:54.920 --> 0:36:58.080 Chile in particular, is the rise of the informal sector 0:36:58.120 --> 0:37:02.279 and people just sort of not having access to sort 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:07.080 of stable wages in labor. And I'm wondering about, Okay, 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:10.640 so organized labors, like the classical unions aren't really involved 0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:16.200 in this, and I guess I'm I'm interested in how, 0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:18.600 if I'm right that that you're dealing with a lot 0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:21.759 of people who aren't doing traditional labor stuff, what was 0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:24.880 the process that was able to get people mobilized. It's like, 0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:28.880 especially people who just have no sort of like people 0:37:29.120 --> 0:37:31.120 who are in the informal sector and people who aren't 0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:37.120 involved in this sort of older classical organizations. Yeah, I 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:39.400 don't know. I guess I would just say it's like 0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:42.640 that that culture of protests. UM. That comes from the 0:37:43.640 --> 0:37:46.879 young people who in the last twenty years, and then 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:50.920 of course, UM, the older folks who um you know 0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:56.680 uh lived through the dictatorship, and of course, UM there 0:37:56.719 --> 0:38:01.319 were an incredible protest at that time too. And and 0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:04.680 so I don't know. I mean, honestly, I was even 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:10.080 after living here for you know, six years, UM, I 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:12.560 was shocked. I never thought it would come to this. 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:16.120 I never thought I would see, you know, over half 0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:19.920 a million people in the streets of Santiago. Um. And 0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:24.719 and I would never never thought we'd see a new constitution. So, UM, 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:26.280 I don't know, I don't I don't have the answer 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:30.840 is it's uh, it's surprising to me. But UM, what 0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:32.960 I will say though, is I don't want to paint 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:39.440 a Rosie portrait of Chile right now because if like 0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:43.360 we mentioned, you know, uh, tomorrow night, if you guys 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:47.759 go to uh Galeria Seema c I m a on 0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:52.080 YouTube or Instagram. Um, they have a live feed of 0:38:52.160 --> 0:38:56.160 the plaza four blocks from our house. And every Friday, 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:59.560 you know, you the protests come out and sometimes the 0:38:59.560 --> 0:39:02.000 cops are are right away and they make a whole 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:06.560 perimeter with two cops and all of the you know, 0:39:07.040 --> 0:39:11.920 tanks and everything, UM, blocking entrance to the plaza in 0:39:12.000 --> 0:39:15.439 every direction. Sometimes they let the people protest, but then 0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:17.759 at ten o'clock, you know, after the sun comes down, 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:21.680 they come out there, and you know it's it's the 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:24.160 same thing were a young woman was was killed a 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:29.520 couple of weeks ago. So and the other thing is 0:39:29.560 --> 0:39:33.480 that we have this election coming up, and uh, this 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:40.759 guy Cast, extreme right winger Pinochetista, UM, just like they 0:39:40.760 --> 0:39:45.359 call him the Chilean Bosonaro, a real piece of ship. 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:52.680 And uh he has um, he has really risen in 0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:56.280 the polls in the last month or two. UM. The 0:39:56.360 --> 0:40:00.520 right wing candidate Sitchell, who won the right wing primaries. UM. 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:03.719 It was kind of going to be the successor to Pinera, 0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:07.239 the current right wing president. UM. Because in Chile, you know, 0:40:07.320 --> 0:40:11.479 you can't run consecutive you can't have consecutive terms. UM. 0:40:11.560 --> 0:40:16.480 But Sitchell just kind of was not a great candidate 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:19.680 and uh kind of blew it and and he went down, 0:40:19.840 --> 0:40:22.720 and and now Cast is going up. And it's really 0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:28.360 scary to think about Cast getting into the second round, UM, 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:33.400 where it will probably be him verse Boridge and UM. 0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:39.480 And so yeah, you know, even though the constitution was 0:40:39.520 --> 0:40:43.200 approved by seventy of the country. Um, you know, it's 0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:45.759 very possible that this election is going to come down 0:40:45.840 --> 0:40:52.040 to a runoff between a you know, moderate socialist like Boridge, 0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:57.759 um not the most extreme leftist in fact, known as Amario, 0:40:58.040 --> 0:41:02.959 you know, very yellow bellied year in Chile, that's his nickname. Um. 0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:06.160 But it will probably Right now, it's looking like it's 0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:08.319 going to come down to him and cast who is 0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:13.279 like almost a return to the dictatorship. So it's it's 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:17.680 pretty scary, geez. So it's just this there's just so 0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:23.400 much fighting to do. Yeah, it's just so much fighting 0:41:23.440 --> 0:41:29.200 to do. Um, I mean I I uh yeah, um, 0:41:29.480 --> 0:41:31.359 do you have do any of you have anything else 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:33.680 you want to make sure you say or talk about 0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:35.920 before we kind of close out for the day. Oh no, 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.919 I will say, like three days ago, just pay my 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:45.399 I finally paid my whole student loan. Like like, I've 0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:47.279 been working for more than ten years in my life, 0:41:47.280 --> 0:41:50.040 I mean since I finished Liniar City and I've been wasted, 0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:53.880 I mean, all my savings. I just pay this fucking 0:41:53.920 --> 0:41:57.360 student loan. I guess that you guys in this in 0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:00.840 the States are like the same like I don't know, 0:42:01.000 --> 0:42:06.800 except for people don't pay off their student stays there forever. 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:11.040 And I just, I just I would like to wish 0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:14.600 to the other, to the coming people that I mean, 0:42:15.400 --> 0:42:18.520 I don't wish that future for my from I mean 0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.280 for the future people in this country. I don't wish 0:42:22.440 --> 0:42:27.800 anyone that I mean university, I mean all students should 0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:32.680 be UM study for free. I mean it's like unconsiderable 0:42:32.719 --> 0:42:36.120 for me. Yeah, So that was a big part of it. 0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:40.399 And then also the I pay pension system here which 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:46.440 is totally privatized, and so you you the government just 0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:50.360 takes your money for retirement. You get to choose between 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:57.200 four or five options which are private companies, and then um, 0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:01.480 if you make money, then uh, the company takes you know, 0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:04.920 their chunk of your your retirement as the payment for 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:08.239 managing your fund. But if you lose money, then it's 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:13.080 on you. So literally, you know, Stephie's mom is like, 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:16.200 you know, checking on her retirement. How did I do 0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:19.320 this year? It's like, oh, you lost two thousand dollars 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:23.400 this year. That's that's your requirement, Davids. You know, so 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:26.719 you and you have you know, people here trying to 0:43:26.760 --> 0:43:30.680 live on you retirements of one hundred dollars a month. Wow, 0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:35.520 the military is receiving ten thous dollars a month, you know, 0:43:36.080 --> 0:43:39.880 So that was a big part of it, um. But 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:44.520 I think what I always come back to here in 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:50.600 Chile is, like we've said, the activist renamed the plaza Plaza, 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:52.920 dig me Dad, And that's what it all comes down to, 0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:58.000 is just we're not asking for you know, ponies, as 0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:01.239 Hillary Clinton would say, We're not we're not asking for 0:44:01.280 --> 0:44:06.080 the moon. We're just asking for basic dignity that everyone deserves. 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:10.360 And it's as simple as that. So we just have 0:44:10.480 --> 0:44:15.000 to cross our fingers and hope that we've done enough 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:18.480 that that you know, at a minimum, you know, people 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:23.440 can live and retire with some dignity, that's all. Yeah, 0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:28.960 and uh, and that enough ecological justice can be gained 0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:35.160 that people can survive what's coming um. Which it's it's 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:37.719 nice to see at the very least that that's a 0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:41.440 central topic of discussion, um, Whereas in the United States, 0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:44.560 everyone in power seems fine with just ignoring the increasing 0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:47.520 problems right now. So I don't know, you know, I 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:49.399 I again, I also don't want to be painting too 0:44:49.440 --> 0:44:52.560 rosy a picture as you've, as you've repeatedly clear, there's 0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:57.359 a lot of of struggle left still. Um, but at 0:44:57.440 --> 0:45:03.120 least you've you've you've achieved a lot. And I I'm 0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:07.400 just heartened by by hearing your story and and and 0:45:07.440 --> 0:45:10.000 hope that more people pay attention to what's happened there 0:45:10.080 --> 0:45:12.439 and try to take lessons from it, because I think 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:15.719 we all need to be we all need to be 0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:19.600 gearing up um as as I'm sure you all will 0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:25.360 continue to continue to do anything else before we close out. UM. No, 0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:27.880 that's it. I mean, I completely agree. I think that 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.480 just like the messages that like, you know, better things 0:45:31.560 --> 0:45:36.120 are possible, like real, real, real change can happen. You know, 0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:42.200 like this started, uh two years ago with high schoolers protesting, 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:45.000 and now we're going to have a vote on a 0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:48.960 new constitution. And it's going to be an ecological constitution 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:53.480 of blurring natural national constitution, um with respect for the 0:45:53.520 --> 0:45:59.160 indigenous people. It's it's uh, it's written by you know, 0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:01.920 an equal amount of men and women and everything and 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:05.080 and so yeah, just I think for me, it's so 0:46:05.160 --> 0:46:10.840 easy for us who have grown up and you know, 0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:15.200 under the gloom of neoliberalism to to just get really 0:46:15.239 --> 0:46:19.480 depressed and fatalistic about it. And uh so for me, 0:46:19.560 --> 0:46:22.799 I feel the same way, like it's just such an 0:46:22.800 --> 0:46:29.800 inspiration and the Chilean and and especially the Chilean youth. Um. 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:34.080 But but yeah, um, it's just an inspiration and uh 0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:38.560 and proof that that change can happen. Um. But it's 0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:43.480 not just voting. And you know, like Chileans have elected socialists, 0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:46.520 you know, the former president was a socialist, but it 0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:51.080 was just the same neo liberalism bullshit. So I think, 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:53.600 you know, voting is great, but like that's just not 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:58.040 enough and so you have to, um, you know, get 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:01.120 out in the streets and try to organize and make 0:47:01.160 --> 0:47:05.520 real change in other ways as well. All Right, yeah, 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:09.400 I agree entirely. Thank you all for coming on. Um. 0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:12.640 I couldn't appreciate it more And I hope you have 0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:17.759 a lovely rest of your day and a lovely continuing 0:47:17.840 --> 0:47:30.640 to uh stick it to the sons of bitches conquer 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:33.560 your New Year's resolution to be more productive with the 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:37.840 Before Breakfast podcast. In each bite sized daily episode, time 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:41.880 management and productivity expert Laura Vanderkam teaches you how to 0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:44.319 make the most of your time both at work and 0:47:44.520 --> 0:47:47.600 at home. These are the practical suggestions you need to 0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:50.600 get more done with your day. Just as lifting weights 0:47:50.680 --> 0:47:53.680 keeps our body strong as we age, learning new skills 0:47:53.840 --> 0:47:57.280 is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to before 0:47:57.320 --> 0:48:01.560 Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. Raffie is the voice 0:48:01.719 --> 0:48:05.520 of some of the happiest songs of our generation, Baby 0:48:07.560 --> 0:48:11.160 So who is the man behind Baby Bluga? Every human 0:48:11.239 --> 0:48:15.839 being wants to feel respected. When we start with young act, 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:20.360 all good things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, 0:48:20.520 --> 0:48:23.520 new Dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast 0:48:23.520 --> 0:48:26.799 from My Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on 0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:29.799 the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:33.880 Hey Leeth the listeners tag here. Last season on Lethal Lit, 0:48:34.200 --> 0:48:37.200 you might remember I came to Hollow Falls on a 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:41.880 mission clearing my aunt best name and making sure justice 0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:45.960 was finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:49.839 of new murders tearing apart the town. My mission put 0:48:49.960 --> 0:48:54.600 myself and my friends in danger. Though it wasn't all bad, 0:48:54.920 --> 0:48:58.920 I'm going to be reality tig I like you, but 0:48:59.000 --> 0:49:02.239 now all signs point to a new serial killer in 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:06.239 Hollow falls. If this game is just starting, you better 0:49:06.280 --> 0:49:11.520 believe I'm gonna win. I'm tig Torres and this is 0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:14.719 Lethal Lit. Catch up on season one of the hit 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:18.280 murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit, a tig Tara's Mystery out now, 0:49:18.520 --> 0:49:20.839 and then tune in for all new thrills in season two, 0:49:21.080 --> 0:49:24.399 dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:26.480 an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I 0:49:26.560 --> 0:49:36.680 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:39.480 Welcome back to it could happen here. The show that 0:49:39.600 --> 0:49:43.920 is only introduced competently when either someone besides me is 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:46.759 the one hosting the episode, or when I have a 0:49:46.840 --> 0:49:51.920 guest that I feel embarrassed about being incompetent in front of. 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:55.000 And and this is this is the latter case, because 0:49:55.040 --> 0:50:00.840 today I'm talking with my friend and uh AT fired colleague, 0:50:00.960 --> 0:50:04.880 Molly Conjure. Molly, Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:07.120 I got to do that like a professional. Welcome to 0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:10.520 the show. That's like an NPR shit right. I know 0:50:10.600 --> 0:50:12.080 people have been saying on the twitch stream that I 0:50:12.120 --> 0:50:15.479 have a very soothing NPR style. Boint you would be great. 0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:18.560 I would love to hear you uh, talking in NPR 0:50:18.640 --> 0:50:21.439 about how it's it's rad that those those people broke 0:50:21.480 --> 0:50:23.719 the windows on those police cars or whatever. No, I 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:26.520 can't be allowed in respectable spaces. I can't be allowed there. 0:50:26.560 --> 0:50:28.319 They let me talk on a panel at Harvard one 0:50:28.320 --> 0:50:29.840 time and I accidentally said fun in front of a 0:50:29.880 --> 0:50:34.400 bunch of people. I mean, I assume Harvard students know 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:38.560 a funk word or two. That one. Speaking of funk words, 0:50:38.920 --> 0:50:41.360 there's a couple of funk words who are under trial 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:47.200 right now for inciting mass violence that led to human 0:50:47.600 --> 0:50:50.440 death and suffering. Um, you wanna you want to give 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:53.560 us the overview we're we're talking today about, you know, 0:50:54.880 --> 0:50:56.919 do Unite the Right rally and Charlottestill in two thousand 0:50:57.000 --> 0:50:59.560 seventeen that led to three deaths, one as the result 0:50:59.600 --> 0:51:02.080 of direct violence. Had their higher who was murdered murdered 0:51:02.120 --> 0:51:06.919 by the fascist James Field, currently in prison for forever. Um, Yeah, 0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:12.200 forever that you know. His trial concluded a while ago. Um, 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:16.120 But there has been churning through the legal system, a 0:51:16.160 --> 0:51:21.799 trial against Richard Spencer Jason Kessler, who was the main organizer. 0:51:22.040 --> 0:51:27.400 Um can't well, there's other uh plaintiffs, right, Yeah, a 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:30.439 lot of a lot of fascists about you know, all 0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:32.960 of the things that they did, the fact that they 0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:38.840 clearly intended this to be a violent uh riot assault whatever, 0:51:38.920 --> 0:51:42.480 like they wanted to have it be a fucking lynching essentially, 0:51:42.520 --> 0:51:44.919 And there's a lot of evidence, including things they said 0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:50.200 to each other about building armies to murder people. Um. Anyway, Molly, 0:51:50.280 --> 0:51:51.759 you want to take it from here. I think I've 0:51:51.760 --> 0:51:55.040 introduced the situation. There's a trial going on. You have 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:57.640 been listening to every day of it and covering it 0:51:57.680 --> 0:52:00.440 on Twitch very ably. UM, and I just kind of 0:52:00.440 --> 0:52:02.279 wanted to catch up with you. You also wrote an 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:06.840 article in Slate with our friend Emily Gortchynsky about, um, 0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:10.279 what's like largely the jury selection of the trial. So 0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:12.160 I was wondering if you could just kind of give 0:52:12.200 --> 0:52:14.319 us an overview of what's happened so far, if your 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:18.879 thoughts on it. Um. Yeah, that that seems that seems good. Yeah. 0:52:18.960 --> 0:52:21.759 So there's just right at the outset, this is a 0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:24.000 civil trial, right, this is not a criminal trial. No 0:52:24.040 --> 0:52:25.759 one's going to the No one's going to jail at 0:52:25.760 --> 0:52:29.200 the end of this. Some of the jail you call it, Oh, 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:31.440 what's that? The Who's goal. We call it the Who's 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:35.960 goal on this show. That's the property, Okay, Um, some 0:52:36.040 --> 0:52:37.920 of them already in jail obviously, Like you said, James 0:52:37.920 --> 0:52:42.080 Fields is serving twenty nine life sentences to that of life, 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:44.600 it's a lot of life. So he was He was 0:52:44.680 --> 0:52:48.240 charged in in Virginia State courty by the Commonwealth of Virginia. 0:52:48.320 --> 0:52:50.799 He was convicted at trial of first degree murder and 0:52:50.920 --> 0:52:54.759 several counts of aggravated malicious wounding. Um. He was so 0:52:54.800 --> 0:52:57.759 that trial happened. He actually went to trial for that, 0:52:58.080 --> 0:53:00.480 but then he pleaded guilty in federal courts. Who was 0:53:00.560 --> 0:53:03.440 charged in two separate courts for the same underlying events, 0:53:03.680 --> 0:53:06.800 And in federal court he pleaded guilty to twenty nine 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:10.720 federal hate crimes. Um. He pleaded guilty to hate crimes. 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:13.319 So there's no debate about whether these were hate crimes. Right, 0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:16.120 and he pleaded guilty too. He pleaded guilty to avoid 0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:18.840 the death penalty because a hate crime, murder is a 0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:23.280 capital crime. So in this lawsuit, right, this this civil 0:53:23.360 --> 0:53:27.680 lawsuit against Deep Breath, Jason Kessler, Richard Spencer, Christopher Campbell, 0:53:27.760 --> 0:53:30.439 James Alex Field, Gang Got America, Andrew England Moonbase Holdings, 0:53:30.520 --> 0:53:33.600 Robert Asmond Or Raid, Nathan Tomiko, Elliott Klein, Identity Europe, 0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:37.399 Matthew Parrot, Matthew Himbuch, Traditionalist Worker Party, Michael Hill, Michael 0:53:37.400 --> 0:53:39.080 Tubsley of the South, Jeff Scoop now that the National 0:53:39.080 --> 0:53:41.799 Socialist Movement, Nationalist Front, Augustus oly Invictus, Reternal Order of 0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:44.400 the Alt Knights, Mike Kinevich, Loyal White Nights of the 0:53:44.480 --> 0:53:46.919 KKK East Coast, Knights of the KKK East Coast, Knights 0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:49.680 of the True Invisible Empire. Several of those parties have 0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:54.319 been dismissed from the suit. That's a lot, It's a 0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:56.640 lot of bad guys, right, Um, several of those parties 0:53:56.680 --> 0:53:59.360 have been dismissed from the suit. Augustus and Victus defaulted. 0:53:59.640 --> 0:54:03.080 Um kind of itchiness. That means the fact that he defaulted, 0:54:03.120 --> 0:54:07.040 Does that mean he was like, yes, right, he offered 0:54:07.160 --> 0:54:10.000 no defense. Yeah, so that's what that means. Yeah, I 0:54:10.000 --> 0:54:12.120 mean he's been dealing with a lot, what would. He's 0:54:12.160 --> 0:54:16.960 had some problems, he's been jails, he abducted his wife 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:20.479 at gunpoint. Um. I think he's out of jail now, 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:24.400 but he's had some personal problems. He's had some personal problems. 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:27.520 So the underlying claim with the lawsuit is a section 0:54:28.480 --> 0:54:31.440 complaint a conspiracy to deprive people of civil rights. This 0:54:31.560 --> 0:54:34.839 is fundamentally at it's at his core an anti clan statute. Right, 0:54:34.840 --> 0:54:38.680 it was designed to disrupt clan organizing. Um. And that's 0:54:38.840 --> 0:54:40.759 kind of what it's being used for here, right. This 0:54:40.800 --> 0:54:47.000 is so the lawsuit was brought by by nine plaintiffs 0:54:47.000 --> 0:54:49.560 who were harmed people who got hurt at the rally. 0:54:49.640 --> 0:54:52.720 Most of the plaintiffs were physically injured in the car attack, 0:54:52.719 --> 0:54:55.840 although not all of them. Um, But these are people 0:54:55.920 --> 0:54:59.759 who are seeking damages, right, Like for all all the 0:55:00.000 --> 0:55:03.480 mootional weight, all the sort of social ramifications, fundamentally this 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:05.640 is a case about damages. So the jury is going 0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:08.560 to say, Okay, these people were harmed. Do we believe 0:55:08.600 --> 0:55:12.320 they were harmed by a conspiracy to commit acts of violence? 0:55:12.520 --> 0:55:15.960 Conspiracy to commit racially motivated accidents? Right, So all of 0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:19.360 those elements have to there was k guys want to 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:24.400 do racial violence when they assaulted people? Yeah? Was their conspiracy? 0:55:24.760 --> 0:55:27.719 Was it motivated by racial animus? And were overt acts 0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:31.040 of violence committed? And did those acts of violence harm 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:34.320 these people? In a way that entitles them to damages. 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:37.600 That's all the jury has to decide. Right, should be 0:55:37.640 --> 0:55:41.880 an open shed case, not a lot nowhere, but it 0:55:41.920 --> 0:55:44.360 does seem like kind of an open and shut case. 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:48.160 It does, right, So, I guess if there are people 0:55:48.160 --> 0:55:50.640 out there who are not familiar with the events of 0:55:50.719 --> 0:55:53.640 that day, a lot of alt right groups, you know, 0:55:53.719 --> 0:55:57.720 overt Neo Nazi organizations, the Literal Clan, the Literal American 0:55:57.800 --> 0:56:01.600 Nazi Party, like Neo Confederate succession. David's Duke was there. 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:05.160 David Duke was there. David Duke, who Elliott Klein described 0:56:05.200 --> 0:56:08.600 as an ideological grandfather when he was asking other organizers 0:56:08.600 --> 0:56:13.360 that he can invite him. Um, these guys came together, 0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:16.880 they came to Charlotte'sville. They brawldened the streets, they beat people, 0:56:16.920 --> 0:56:20.480 They hit them with shields. A Literal Clan wizard fired 0:56:20.520 --> 0:56:25.160 his gun at a black band while screaming die N word. Well, now, okay, 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:27.000 it seems like you're reaching a bit to call that 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:31.960 racially motivated. Well, that's something they're trying to litigate now, right, 0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:37.960 So you're probably familiar with the video of DeAndre Harris 0:56:38.000 --> 0:56:41.560 being beaten nearly to death by morrows of several different 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:43.719 hate groups. Right, So one of the guys that beat 0:56:43.800 --> 0:56:45.279 him was a tv a P member. One of them 0:56:45.320 --> 0:56:47.920 was a League of the South member, and they worked 0:56:47.960 --> 0:56:50.439 together to beat this young man nearly to death while 0:56:50.440 --> 0:56:52.240 he was lying on the ground. And so that today 0:56:52.360 --> 0:56:54.640 they were talking about like, well, can we really say 0:56:54.640 --> 0:56:57.640 that was racially motivated? You know, can we really say 0:56:57.680 --> 0:57:01.160 can we really say? Yeah? Um? Yeah, I think we can. 0:57:01.640 --> 0:57:04.080 I think we can. Um. You know, his mother has 0:57:04.120 --> 0:57:07.320 been on podcasts since his conviction. I'm referring to Jacob Goodwin, 0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:09.440 the t TPP member, the man who used a t 0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:12.920 w P riot shield provided to him by Matthew Heinbach 0:57:12.960 --> 0:57:15.600 to beat this young man. His mother goes on Nazi 0:57:15.640 --> 0:57:18.440 podcast still to describe how her son is a martyr 0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:22.040 for the white cause there's no ambiguity. But where are 0:57:22.080 --> 0:57:25.560 you getting racially motivated from that moment? Right? Like there's 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:27.480 a there's a picture of her with her arm around 0:57:27.480 --> 0:57:29.240 her son. Her son's like seven feet tall. He's a 0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:31.800 giant boy. To get her arm around her large adult son, 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:34.280 and he's wearing a T shirt with a giant picture 0:57:34.320 --> 0:57:38.320 of George Lincoln Rockwell on it. Ah, you love the 0:57:38.360 --> 0:57:43.800 deep cuts, so you know. And Billy Roper's Christmas party, Yeah, 0:57:44.680 --> 0:57:47.840 another another Nazi. Right, So there's not a lot of 0:57:47.880 --> 0:57:50.960 ambiguity here for the average person. But so you know, 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:52.920 like you were saying, Emily and I wrote about jury selection, 0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:57.560 jury selection is um so corporate seedings are generally speaking 0:57:57.600 --> 0:57:59.479 open to the public. Anyone can go to their local 0:57:59.480 --> 0:58:01.600 courthouse and you can sit through a trial. You can 0:58:01.600 --> 0:58:04.120 sit through the war deer process. You can see how 0:58:04.120 --> 0:58:07.320 a jury gets chosen. You can go trial hopping, get 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:10.760 wasted re entertainment. As long as you say quietly, they 0:58:10.760 --> 0:58:17.919 can't make you leave. It's like a library. It's very 0:58:18.040 --> 0:58:21.080 discouraging because the whole point is to pic jurors who 0:58:21.120 --> 0:58:26.480 have never encountered reality. You pick people who don't have 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:28.320 any opinions, right, because you want them to be able 0:58:28.320 --> 0:58:30.240 to be impartial. And the best way to make sure 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:31.880 your jury is going to be impartial is to pick 0:58:31.920 --> 0:58:36.120 people who don't have any opinions. And if you don't 0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:38.640 have any opinions on whether or not it's good for 0:58:38.760 --> 0:58:41.400 Nazis to beat people in the streets. I would say 0:58:41.400 --> 0:58:42.960 that in and of itself as an opinion that you 0:58:43.040 --> 0:58:46.280 already have right the ability do not have an opinion 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:49.760 about that. The jury selection took three days because they 0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:52.560 had to go through this process of speaking to each 0:58:52.640 --> 0:58:55.080 jury individually. Usually they'll they'll do it in batches, where 0:58:55.080 --> 0:58:58.320 they ask questions of people in batches, um. But this 0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:00.640 was so sensitive they didn't want to tame the jury pool, 0:59:00.680 --> 0:59:01.880 so they did it one by one. So it took 0:59:01.880 --> 0:59:06.360 three days, um. And they chose jurors who didn't have 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:10.000 opinions about the existence of racism in the United States. Okay, 0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:13.200 that seems unbiased. Again, It's this thing you keep seeing 0:59:13.200 --> 0:59:16.080 where it's like, well, we can't let people have a bias, 0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:18.240 so it has to be people who have never heard 0:59:18.400 --> 0:59:21.280 of white supremacy, which is like, then that's a bias 0:59:21.280 --> 0:59:23.920 in favor of white supremacy. But of course that's the 0:59:23.960 --> 0:59:26.960 default of the system. It's like that's the tear, right, 0:59:27.160 --> 0:59:29.440 Like you stick white supremacy on the scale and you 0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:32.960 tear it, but then you add awareness of white supremacy 0:59:32.960 --> 0:59:36.240 and suddenly there's weight on it. You know, it's sorry, 0:59:36.320 --> 0:59:39.520 it's very frustrating. I know, you know, it's frustrating. I mean, yeah, 0:59:39.600 --> 0:59:43.320 I shouldn't frustrating to sit through listening to them to 0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:44.920 ask people, you know, because they had to fill out 0:59:44.920 --> 0:59:46.760 a questionnaire ahead of time, so so they can sort 0:59:46.800 --> 0:59:49.360 of sift through obvious knows um. And one of the 0:59:49.440 --> 0:59:52.160 questions was, you know, how do you feel about how 0:59:52.200 --> 0:59:55.040 concerned are you about these different kinds of prejudice, you know, 0:59:55.200 --> 0:59:58.160 prejudice against black people, prejudice against Hispanic people, prejudice agast 0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:00.880 Jewish people, are prejudice against white people. And a lot 1:00:00.920 --> 1:00:03.440 of people indicated that they were very concerned about anti 1:00:03.440 --> 1:00:07.520 white racism, and a lot of jurors were asked follow 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:10.080 up questions about like, well, why aren't you more concerned 1:00:10.120 --> 1:00:12.200 about anti white racism. Why did you say you don't 1:00:12.200 --> 1:00:15.360 care about that because it's not real. Yeah, because I've 1:00:15.400 --> 1:00:21.320 never seen it in my entire life. Um, but okay, 1:00:21.800 --> 1:00:23.600 but we seated a jury. We did see the jury 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:25.360 and there were you know, there's always concerned in a 1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:27.400 case like this that you just won't be able to 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:30.440 get an impartial jury. But we got it could be worse, right, 1:00:30.480 --> 1:00:34.040 it could be worse. Um. There is a guy on 1:00:34.080 --> 1:00:36.000 the jury who said that in high school he was 1:00:36.040 --> 1:00:38.440 the victim of a racially motivated attack by by a 1:00:38.480 --> 1:00:45.240 Samoan person. Um because they didn't like white people. M hmm, 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:49.640 I wonder what that person was doing. Slash say, black 1:00:49.680 --> 1:00:51.920 people who believe that they have a right to exist 1:00:51.960 --> 1:00:55.280 without being subjected to racism not impartial, can't be on 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:57.520 the jury. But a white guy who says he was 1:00:57.560 --> 1:01:00.400 the victim of a hate crime because some and didn't 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:06.439 like Howley's God, so people talking about like I don't 1:01:06.440 --> 1:01:08.640 like it when folks not from my island come here 1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:11.560 and function up and make it expensive. Yeah, that's anti 1:01:11.600 --> 1:01:18.240 white racist. Incredible, incredible. You know, it could be a worster, 1:01:18.320 --> 1:01:22.200 it could be a worse story, but it's not ideal. Um, God, 1:01:22.240 --> 1:01:24.680 where did we go from there? It's been It's been 1:01:24.680 --> 1:01:27.640 a little bit of a blur. Um can't well and 1:01:27.680 --> 1:01:31.920 Spencer don't have lawyers? Right? Well? Yeah, okay, so right 1:01:31.920 --> 1:01:34.400 because can't well, can't can't well? It is for people 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:37.200 who aren't aware. Can't Well is representing himself and tell 1:01:37.240 --> 1:01:39.320 correct me if I'm wrong here. But he started by 1:01:39.360 --> 1:01:42.880 acknowledging the old saying that a person who represents themselves 1:01:42.880 --> 1:01:44.920 as a fool as a lawyer, but then said, but 1:01:45.000 --> 1:01:47.680 I'm not a fool in this case. Yeah, he said, 1:01:47.720 --> 1:01:50.640 you may have heard this, but that's not true here. 1:01:50.880 --> 1:01:57.040 That's not the case here. Unbelievable. And I didn't even 1:01:57.080 --> 1:02:00.360 stay in a Holiday and Express last night. Oh god. 1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:04.280 Really he seriously made a Holiday and Express joke while 1:02:04.320 --> 1:02:06.600 he was Oh my god. But the follow up, the 1:02:06.640 --> 1:02:09.400 follow up was, but I did stay in the Central 1:02:09.480 --> 1:02:13.160 Virginia Regional Jail because that is where he staying. Yeah, 1:02:13.200 --> 1:02:16.240 I mean because he's in prison for sexually or not 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:21.520 for for harassing and threatening and blackmailing another Nazi, right, yeah, yeah, 1:02:21.560 --> 1:02:25.480 he was transported here from the federal prison and Mary 1:02:25.520 --> 1:02:30.520 in Illinois, where he is a guest until next Christmas. Um. 1:02:30.560 --> 1:02:33.120 So he had filed motions to exclude the fact that 1:02:33.160 --> 1:02:35.320 he's currently incarcerated, as is his right right late, like 1:02:35.360 --> 1:02:39.160 if you are a yeah, yeah, absolutely, in a you know, 1:02:39.200 --> 1:02:41.640 in a criminal case or in a in a simple case, 1:02:41.720 --> 1:02:43.520 it is it is your right to have the jury 1:02:43.560 --> 1:02:45.720 not see you in a jumpsuit. And I respect that, 1:02:45.760 --> 1:02:49.200 I think perfectly. Absolutely. Yeah. So he went to great 1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:51.080 links to make sure that the jury would never see 1:02:51.120 --> 1:02:53.040 him in cuffs, that the marshals wouldn't bring him in 1:02:53.040 --> 1:02:55.240 in irons, that he would change before the jury arrived 1:02:55.240 --> 1:02:57.720 at the Cornouse. All very reasonable and no one's going 1:02:57.760 --> 1:02:59.560 to get to talk about it, but he brought it 1:02:59.640 --> 1:03:03.520 up in his an opening statement. I'm here from prison. 1:03:03.560 --> 1:03:06.400 I'm here from prison. By the way, I'm in prison 1:03:06.480 --> 1:03:09.200 for the other crimes I committed, But they're not related 1:03:09.240 --> 1:03:12.400 to these crimes. They're not related to these crimes except 1:03:12.440 --> 1:03:16.000 to the extent that he's unable to shut the funk up. 1:03:16.000 --> 1:03:18.600 He's only in prison because he emailed the FBI or 1:03:18.600 --> 1:03:21.120 recording him him doing the crime that he's in prison for. 1:03:21.400 --> 1:03:26.040 He's he's really a very cunning man. But I think 1:03:26.080 --> 1:03:27.880 you know so, as much as those crimes aren't relevant 1:03:27.920 --> 1:03:29.960 to this case, I think it is very relevant to 1:03:30.000 --> 1:03:32.840 his trial strategy, right, that he has this belief that 1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:36.120 all the things he did that were wrong they were right. Actually, 1:03:36.160 --> 1:03:38.600 he just needs to explain to us why he did 1:03:38.640 --> 1:03:42.760 them and then we'll understand. Right, he's in prison because 1:03:42.800 --> 1:03:45.000 he tried to talk his way out of a thing 1:03:45.080 --> 1:03:47.880 that he did that was wrong by telling everyone that 1:03:47.920 --> 1:03:50.000 he did do it. Yes, I did it because I 1:03:50.040 --> 1:03:54.800 had to. You didn't have to make an extortionate threat 1:03:54.800 --> 1:03:57.120 to rape another man's wife in front of their children. 1:03:57.160 --> 1:03:59.480 You didn't actually have to do that. Yeah, that's really 1:03:59.560 --> 1:04:01.840 I mean I would I might argue, and perhaps I'm 1:04:01.840 --> 1:04:04.479 an extremist, but there's no situation in which you would 1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:08.280 ever have to do that. Nobody made you email the 1:04:08.360 --> 1:04:12.880 FBI about how you did that, but you did. Actually, 1:04:12.960 --> 1:04:14.760 I would have told you that was a bad idea. 1:04:15.720 --> 1:04:17.920 I mean, there's there's some snarky stuff in some in 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:20.320 some of the affidavits about how like he called the 1:04:20.400 --> 1:04:23.120 Keen Police Department trying to tattletale on other people so 1:04:23.200 --> 1:04:26.560 often that they were tired of taking his calls. Unbelievable. 1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:29.600 What an amazing man, like he's he's a piece of ship, 1:04:29.800 --> 1:04:33.560 but he is legitimately an incredible person. I mean, if 1:04:33.560 --> 1:04:35.560 you wrote this, no one would believe it. Right, this 1:04:35.640 --> 1:04:38.160 is so heavy handed, it's so goofy, Like when he 1:04:38.240 --> 1:04:41.920 was paying Elmer in guns his law he paid his 1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:44.000 lawyer in guns, and then he ran out of guns 1:04:44.040 --> 1:04:47.720 and had his lawyer stopped working for him. Yeah, he 1:04:48.000 --> 1:04:50.200 doesn't have a lawyer anymore because he ran out of 1:04:50.240 --> 1:04:53.080 guns to pawn. Although I can't anymore because now he's 1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:56.400 a convicted I gotta say, running out of guns to 1:04:56.480 --> 1:05:02.240 pawn for your lawyer. It's pretty cocked. He even had 1:05:02.280 --> 1:05:04.400 to sell the bucket of loose bullets he used to 1:05:04.440 --> 1:05:07.240 keep us a prop on his desk, I mean, really 1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:11.400 devastating stuff. Um. So he doesn't you're you're down to 1:05:11.440 --> 1:05:13.520 the brad, You're down to the rails when you're two 1:05:13.560 --> 1:05:17.360 at that really the bottom of the barrel. So he's 1:05:17.400 --> 1:05:22.200 proceeding pro say, which, unfortunately, unfortunately for everyone involved, means 1:05:22.200 --> 1:05:25.080 he gets to talk a lot, a lot, a lot 1:05:25.120 --> 1:05:27.280 a lot, which means he gets to cross examine his 1:05:27.320 --> 1:05:30.480 own witnesses. Right, So the first two witnesses the plaintiffs 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:33.000 put on were two of their plaintiffs, right, two young 1:05:33.080 --> 1:05:36.160 people who were injured in these events. The first witness 1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:39.040 they put on Natalie as the v a student who 1:05:39.080 --> 1:05:41.840 had her skull fractured in the car attack. She had 1:05:41.880 --> 1:05:43.919 to learn how to walk again, She had to see 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:47.720 a neurologist to retrain her eyes to track movement. I mean, 1:05:47.760 --> 1:05:51.920 she was very badly injured. Um. And so she testified 1:05:51.960 --> 1:05:54.360 at length about the damage that was done to her. 1:05:54.360 --> 1:05:56.200 Because again this is a case about damages, so the 1:05:56.240 --> 1:05:59.040 jury needs to learn who is this person, what happened 1:05:59.040 --> 1:06:01.560 to them? What did it call them physically, mentally, emotionally, 1:06:01.600 --> 1:06:04.360 financially Um, Because what they're going to be asked to 1:06:04.360 --> 1:06:05.880 do is to put a dollar amount on So they 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:09.480 had to meet her and hear about her injuries, um, 1:06:09.520 --> 1:06:13.080 and hear about her motivation for being there. Um. You know, 1:06:13.120 --> 1:06:15.880 she's a young queer Latino woman as she's the first 1:06:15.880 --> 1:06:18.560 college student in her family, and she's a very impressive 1:06:18.600 --> 1:06:21.080 young woman, and she was very composed on the stand 1:06:21.160 --> 1:06:24.920 us as awful as the content was. Um. But then 1:06:25.000 --> 1:06:27.520 every single one of the defendants gets to cross examine her. 1:06:28.040 --> 1:06:31.160 Richard Spencer gets to cross examine her. Christopher Campell gets 1:06:31.200 --> 1:06:33.800 to cross examine her. James Klennich, who took the case. 1:06:33.840 --> 1:06:36.600 He's Kessler Demigo and Identity Europea's lawyer, James Klenicch. She's 1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:39.680 an Ohio based attorney who said on the record that 1:06:39.720 --> 1:06:42.280 he took this case with the express purpose of opposing 1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:48.040 Jewish influence. Great great Klenich gets to cross examined her. 1:06:48.600 --> 1:06:51.120 Matt Heimbuck's new lawyer, Josh Smith, used to be the 1:06:51.160 --> 1:06:57.160 campaign spokesman for Paul Neilon, was endorsed by Trump at 1:06:57.160 --> 1:06:59.840 one point in his run for Congress. And as also 1:07:00.200 --> 1:07:04.280 just a straight up Nazi who's repeatedly threatened to murder you. Yeah. Yeah, 1:07:04.320 --> 1:07:06.280 one time he spent all day posting pictures of a 1:07:06.360 --> 1:07:08.480 deer that he said that he named after me. He said, 1:07:08.480 --> 1:07:10.080 I named this dear Molly. You know, he's been all 1:07:10.160 --> 1:07:12.200 days stalking at posting pictures of it, posting pictures of 1:07:12.200 --> 1:07:14.120 this gun um. And then he posted a picture of 1:07:14.160 --> 1:07:17.680 the dear stage like a lynching. And then he spelled 1:07:17.720 --> 1:07:21.520 my name out in its entrails and posted pictures of that. 1:07:21.600 --> 1:07:23.840 So you're just like a really normal guy Paul Neeland, 1:07:23.840 --> 1:07:28.200 which totally completely with it. Um them. His campaign spokesperson 1:07:28.240 --> 1:07:33.080 when he ran for Congress was the Holocaust denying um 1:07:33.320 --> 1:07:37.760 former Jew Josh Smith. Josh Smith was born Daniel Nussbaum. 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:41.520 He changed his name to hide his Jewish past. Oh, 1:07:41.880 --> 1:07:44.640 that is an old story among the Nazis. I mean, 1:07:44.680 --> 1:07:49.240 we talked about the guy who invented uh sea monkeys, 1:07:49.240 --> 1:07:51.760 but yeah, it's basically the same case. And you know 1:07:51.800 --> 1:07:57.960 who else hides there? I okay, Um, this was meant 1:07:58.000 --> 1:08:00.280 to be an ad plug. Normally Sophie would jump in 1:08:00.320 --> 1:08:04.000 and stopped me from doing that. None of these avertise 1:08:04.520 --> 1:08:08.439 none of these satisers are plaintiffs in the current case 1:08:08.520 --> 1:08:11.520 that you're covering. That's a guarantee, that is, that is 1:08:11.560 --> 1:08:14.919 an absolute promise. David Duke is not about to sell 1:08:14.920 --> 1:08:19.000 you dick pills. No, no, no, although he could use them. 1:08:19.200 --> 1:08:23.800 We're back, Um, all right, Molly, sorry, please continue where 1:08:23.840 --> 1:08:26.360 where we got distracted thinking about David Duke trying to 1:08:26.400 --> 1:08:29.479 sell you dick pills? Yeah, I have That's not good 1:08:29.520 --> 1:08:31.640 for anybody, right, So everybody gets to cross examined. The 1:08:31.640 --> 1:08:34.960 witness Josh Smith is himbox new lawyer. Um, Glennich used 1:08:34.960 --> 1:08:36.720 to be a lot of these guys lawyers, and then 1:08:36.720 --> 1:08:39.440 he sort of dropped them over time as they became uncooperative. 1:08:39.439 --> 1:08:43.240 They are all these motions to withdraw clench, slowly dropped 1:08:43.240 --> 1:08:46.559 clients over the last two years. Um, he dropped can't 1:08:46.560 --> 1:08:48.599 Well as a client because Can't Well wouldn't stop posting 1:08:48.640 --> 1:08:54.240 about hurting ROBERTA. Kaplan, who's the lead counsel for the plaintiffs. ROBERTA. Kaplan, 1:08:54.360 --> 1:08:57.640 Femish famous Jewish lesbian lawyer. You know she was on 1:08:57.680 --> 1:09:03.960 the US v Inser the I'm losing it, absolutely losing it. 1:09:04.120 --> 1:09:07.040 The Supreme Court case that gave us gay marriage right. ROBERTA. 1:09:07.080 --> 1:09:10.240 Kaplan brought us gay marriage essentially. So she you know, 1:09:10.439 --> 1:09:13.559 famous Jewish lesbian that is a well known portion of 1:09:13.560 --> 1:09:16.599 her identity. And kett Well kept posting um anti Semitic 1:09:16.600 --> 1:09:18.800 remarks about her, and finally Kalinicch was like, you're making 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:21.080 it really hard to be your lawyer, and you don't 1:09:21.080 --> 1:09:26.479 pay me um and Klenich dropped Heimbuch as a client 1:09:26.600 --> 1:09:32.920 in t because Heimbuch just stopped answering his calls. Great 1:09:33.840 --> 1:09:38.240 smart people. Yeah. So Matt Parrott, who's Matt Heimbuch's father 1:09:38.360 --> 1:09:42.600 in law but also the husband of the woman that 1:09:42.880 --> 1:09:46.200 he was sleeping. This complicated. There's a chart. There's a chart. 1:09:46.520 --> 1:09:49.519 Matt Heimbuck and Matt Parrot founders of the Traditional Worker Party, 1:09:49.600 --> 1:09:52.639 best friends for a long time. For Child's wives, big problems, 1:09:52.720 --> 1:09:56.040 big problems for them. The Night of Wrong Wives, the 1:09:56.120 --> 1:10:00.840 Knight of the Wrong Wives. So Matt Parrot was technically 1:10:00.920 --> 1:10:04.240 Matt Heimbach's father in law during the time period which 1:10:04.439 --> 1:10:09.680 Heimbach was fucking parent's wife. Very classy people. Not a 1:10:09.680 --> 1:10:14.360 great situation. So they lost their lawyer. Um Parent very 1:10:14.400 --> 1:10:18.320 publicly told all Traditionalist Worker Party members to destroy evidence. 1:10:20.160 --> 1:10:21.840 So we knew that, right. That was on the record 1:10:21.840 --> 1:10:23.839 from the beginning that Matt parent was like, hey, everyone 1:10:23.840 --> 1:10:28.040 in t TVP, if you did any crimes, delete it right, 1:10:28.080 --> 1:10:31.400 delete your social media, delete your pictures. Like we weren't there, right, 1:10:31.920 --> 1:10:35.200 and that's a crime. That's a crime. That is a 1:10:36.200 --> 1:10:38.880 crime right there. But an interesting thing that we learned 1:10:38.880 --> 1:10:43.000 to date. But I don't think we did know before. Um. 1:10:43.040 --> 1:10:47.160 In November, so they played a recording of a conversation 1:10:47.240 --> 1:10:51.040 between Matt Heimbach and Christopher Cantwell and this was during 1:10:51.080 --> 1:10:54.120 examination of Heimbuch. Heimbuch was on the stand, um, and 1:10:54.120 --> 1:10:56.479 they're talking about like, you know, you didn't produce discovery. 1:10:56.520 --> 1:10:58.320 You said you lost your phone, this, that and the other. 1:10:58.439 --> 1:11:00.320 You know, after you beat your wife, she threw away 1:11:00.320 --> 1:11:05.000 your phone. Um. So he said I couldn't turn over 1:11:05.040 --> 1:11:07.920 my social media accounts because my wife deleted them because 1:11:07.920 --> 1:11:10.320 we had an argument about me taking out the trash, right, 1:11:10.360 --> 1:11:12.320 Like we had this domestic dispute about the trash and 1:11:12.360 --> 1:11:16.400 she deleted all my accounts, so I couldn't turn them over. Um. Well, 1:11:16.439 --> 1:11:18.840 today we found out that he told can't well. In 1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:21.479 ten so a year after the lawsuit was filed. When 1:11:21.479 --> 1:11:23.599 a lawsuit was filed against you, you have a legal 1:11:23.640 --> 1:11:27.880 obligation to not do things like this. He told can't 1:11:27.880 --> 1:11:31.920 well that after a conversation with his lawyer, on the 1:11:31.960 --> 1:11:39.880 advice of his lawyer, he deleted those accounts. Oh, oh great, 1:11:40.160 --> 1:11:43.160 there's just a record of him criming. Yeah, that's a crime, 1:11:43.720 --> 1:11:45.519 and it also a crime for his lawyer to have 1:11:45.600 --> 1:11:50.599 advised him to do that. Great. Um, again, that's there's 1:11:50.640 --> 1:11:53.840 no direct evidence who told him to do that, but 1:11:53.920 --> 1:11:55.679 we do have a recording of him saying a lawyer 1:11:55.680 --> 1:11:57.760 told him to So that's not great. That's not a 1:11:57.760 --> 1:12:00.639 good situation. Is he going to get charged with anything 1:12:00.680 --> 1:12:03.960 for that? I am curious. You know, I'm not a lawyer. 1:12:04.040 --> 1:12:05.880 Just for everyone listening, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't 1:12:05.920 --> 1:12:07.960 go to law school. I didn't even finish undergrad I'm 1:12:07.960 --> 1:12:12.080 not a lawyer. Um, but I have listened to a lawyers. 1:12:12.840 --> 1:12:16.760 But I am I am curious. What with what frequency 1:12:17.000 --> 1:12:20.880 can perjury charges be sought in a civil case? Right, 1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:23.759 it's still under Oh it's like it is still perjury. 1:12:24.600 --> 1:12:30.320 But how common is that to be pursued because they're perjuring? Yeah, perjury, 1:12:30.720 --> 1:12:32.960 perjurer doing the thing the right always does, which is 1:12:32.960 --> 1:12:35.960 trust that the law will never actually come after them 1:12:35.960 --> 1:12:39.519 for their many crimes, and there's there's a good chance 1:12:39.520 --> 1:12:42.519 they'll be right. You know, like Hinbuch said, you know 1:12:42.640 --> 1:12:44.760 when he was asked, have you ever provided security for 1:12:44.840 --> 1:12:46.840 Richard Spencer? And he said no? And it's okay, Well 1:12:46.840 --> 1:12:48.519 there's like a hundred pictures of you doing that at 1:12:48.600 --> 1:12:52.720 multiple events. Um. You know, they're claiming they don't know 1:12:52.760 --> 1:12:54.760 each other, Like, here's all these pictures of you guys 1:12:54.760 --> 1:13:01.599 hanging out. Um, god, where else are we? Um? Yeah, 1:13:01.640 --> 1:13:05.799 I'm curious, you know, one thing that kind of especially 1:13:05.800 --> 1:13:08.040 because of the written house thing. And we're actually we'll 1:13:08.040 --> 1:13:11.519 be talking to a lawyer tomorrow night about or tomorrow 1:13:11.520 --> 1:13:15.200 about the written house thing. Um. Every cool person shares 1:13:15.240 --> 1:13:22.840 the same lawyer. Uh um. But yeah, because of that, 1:13:22.840 --> 1:13:25.280 I'm kind of curious, what what is your what since 1:13:25.320 --> 1:13:30.839 do you get of this judge? There's no good judges, 1:13:31.280 --> 1:13:32.960 there's no good judges. But it could be yeah, I 1:13:32.960 --> 1:13:35.240 mean I'm not saying like yeah, but how is it? 1:13:35.240 --> 1:13:37.000 It could be? It could be a lot worse. You know, 1:13:37.200 --> 1:13:40.839 Trump appointed a shipload of federal judges pretty recently. Judgment 1:13:41.040 --> 1:13:44.640 is eighty five years old. He's a Clinton appointee. He's 1:13:44.680 --> 1:13:47.280 a Clinton appointee, so it's could be worse, could be worse. 1:13:48.040 --> 1:13:49.680 He's been on the bench, you know since I was 1:13:49.720 --> 1:13:53.320 an elementary school UM, and he's very old, and he 1:13:53.360 --> 1:13:55.719 doesn't he has it's a little bit hard of hearing. 1:13:56.600 --> 1:14:00.200 But he's not stupid. Um. There's a lot of people, 1:14:00.240 --> 1:14:03.320 I think we are really frustrated with some of the 1:14:03.320 --> 1:14:06.160 things he's allowing to happen. He's he's really allowing these 1:14:06.200 --> 1:14:09.240 these pro sed defendants to sort of run rough shot 1:14:09.280 --> 1:14:12.759 over the procedure. But you know, like I said before 1:14:12.760 --> 1:14:19.040 we started recording, it's really hard to apply. I get 1:14:19.120 --> 1:14:21.519 like the your sense of how things are supposed to 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:24.479 work doesn't really apply in court. Right. There's a very rigid, 1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:27.360 sort of outdated set of rules and procedures, and they 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:31.639 don't feel right. They don't feel logical or reasonable or fair. 1:14:31.720 --> 1:14:33.680 But there is a specific way that it works, and 1:14:33.680 --> 1:14:35.720 it is hard to watch, especially if you've never seen 1:14:35.760 --> 1:14:38.439 it before. And because of the emotionally fraught nature of this, 1:14:38.920 --> 1:14:42.120 it's particularly frustrating to be to be listening on this 1:14:42.160 --> 1:14:44.400 line and saying, like, why are they allowed to do 1:14:44.479 --> 1:14:48.639 this to this witness. Well, legally, you can cross examine 1:14:48.640 --> 1:14:50.800 your witnesses, even if you are the person who hurt them. 1:14:50.840 --> 1:14:54.560 It's not a good system, but it is how it works. Um. 1:14:54.600 --> 1:14:57.679 But he's um And I also think there's there's concern 1:14:57.720 --> 1:15:01.000 about appellate issues, there's concern about his trial, and so 1:15:01.000 --> 1:15:03.000 they're really going out of their way not to give 1:15:03.040 --> 1:15:05.320 anyone any excuse to say, well, this was not fair 1:15:05.360 --> 1:15:08.439 to me. They're going to say it anyway, but they 1:15:08.560 --> 1:15:11.960 they're really letting them have a long leash in a 1:15:12.000 --> 1:15:14.400 way that feels very bad. But at the same time 1:15:14.439 --> 1:15:18.519 I can't kind of understand it. Yeah, I wish they 1:15:18.520 --> 1:15:21.559 hadn't done so much Holocaust denial, like on on the road, 1:15:22.439 --> 1:15:25.840 that would be good. They put an expert on today, 1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:30.599 who's um Dr Debra Lipstad, who's an expert in Holocaust denial, 1:15:31.080 --> 1:15:34.040 to sort of talk about what the Holocaust is. I 1:15:34.080 --> 1:15:37.240 guess in case the jury doesn't know. God, that's bleak. 1:15:38.640 --> 1:15:43.160 That's bleak because they chose this jury based on them 1:15:43.200 --> 1:15:46.920 never having heard of Jews. You know, it's a bunch 1:15:46.920 --> 1:15:49.360 of like middle aged people from Green County who have 1:15:49.400 --> 1:15:51.200 never met a Jewish person, So they had to put 1:15:51.200 --> 1:15:54.240 on a professor to say, okay, when he says gas 1:15:54.280 --> 1:15:57.439 the K words, we're talking about gas chambers, gas chambers 1:15:57.439 --> 1:16:00.000 from the Holocaust. They didn't start out with gas chambers. 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:02.080 He started with mass shootings. But it was too messy. 1:16:02.360 --> 1:16:04.720 I mean, she was literally recounting sort of the evolution 1:16:04.760 --> 1:16:07.479 from the Asans group and you know, shootings in the 1:16:07.520 --> 1:16:09.920 fields to the because of the gas chambers. Like we 1:16:09.920 --> 1:16:13.880 we had to talk all the way through it, um 1:16:14.000 --> 1:16:18.360 because it seems unnecessary, but again for the jury, it 1:16:18.600 --> 1:16:22.000 might be necessary. And so when Asma Door, Robert don't 1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:25.120 want to take anything for granted, you know, yeah, right, 1:16:25.400 --> 1:16:27.559 and you really have to sort of lay out these connections, right, 1:16:27.560 --> 1:16:30.040 because the idea is you have to prove a conspiracy 1:16:30.080 --> 1:16:33.120 and you have to prove the conspiracy was racially motivated. Um. 1:16:33.160 --> 1:16:35.800 And so when asma Door is the racist wizard name 1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:38.120 that m. Robert Ray uses when he writes for the 1:16:38.160 --> 1:16:41.080 Daily Stormer. When Asmador keeps saying we're going to gas 1:16:41.120 --> 1:16:43.200 the K words, everyone knows what I mean when I 1:16:43.200 --> 1:16:47.880 say that, right, yes, yeah, okay, you know he keeps saying, 1:16:47.880 --> 1:16:50.120 you know, the plan is to gas the kwords. You know, 1:16:50.200 --> 1:16:52.800 g T, K R W n UM gas the K 1:16:52.920 --> 1:16:54.760 words race war now he keeps saying, he keeps saying, 1:16:54.880 --> 1:16:58.040 keeps saying it. And the torch March he Pepper sprays 1:16:58.080 --> 1:17:00.000 a bunch of people which he is currently a fugitive 1:17:00.000 --> 1:17:03.639 of justice for UM. He's UM, he's wanted for felony 1:17:03.920 --> 1:17:08.120 in um Almarrale County. He's missing UM. So he says 1:17:08.160 --> 1:17:09.760 he's going to do it, then he does it, and 1:17:09.800 --> 1:17:13.000 then afterwards he's on video saying, yeah, I guessed half 1:17:13.040 --> 1:17:16.160 a dozen K words, so you can see from A 1:17:16.360 --> 1:17:19.080 to B to C. And then we have this expert saying, Okay, 1:17:19.120 --> 1:17:24.559 what he's saying is a direct reference to the Holocaust, right. Um, 1:17:24.560 --> 1:17:26.880 It's like he's like you said, it's pretty open and shut. 1:17:26.920 --> 1:17:30.040 It's pretty straightforward A to B two see. Um. You know, 1:17:30.040 --> 1:17:32.439 we have these discord leaks um if you want to 1:17:32.439 --> 1:17:35.559 browse them. They're on Unicorn Riot, and almost immediately after 1:17:35.560 --> 1:17:39.120 the rally, Unicorn Riot had these discord leaks um the 1:17:39.280 --> 1:17:42.040 entire server, the Charlesville two point oh server where they 1:17:42.080 --> 1:17:45.000 planned this out, where they're in the discord saying yeah, 1:17:45.040 --> 1:17:46.800 it's gonna be so great, We're gonna do so much violence. 1:17:46.840 --> 1:17:48.880 We're gonna we're gonna hurt people. We're gonna bring shield, 1:17:48.880 --> 1:17:52.320 we're gonna bring base, really explicitly talking about the plan, 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:56.800 making jokes about hitting people with cars. Um, now the 1:17:56.920 --> 1:18:01.040 entire discord will be admitted. UM it it has been authenticated. 1:18:01.080 --> 1:18:04.000 They received another copy of it via subpoena directly from discord. 1:18:04.080 --> 1:18:07.280 It's real. It's evidence as much as can't well doesn't 1:18:07.320 --> 1:18:13.880 like that. But more than that, UM, we have, you know, 1:18:14.160 --> 1:18:18.200 some first person authentication. We heard deposition testimony from Elliott 1:18:18.240 --> 1:18:21.240 Klein's ex girlfriend, UM, the woman that he was living 1:18:21.240 --> 1:18:23.640 with in seventeen. So in the summer of seventeen, he 1:18:23.720 --> 1:18:25.920 was living with this woman that he had just met 1:18:25.960 --> 1:18:29.600 and it entered into a romantic relationship with Um. She 1:18:29.680 --> 1:18:31.800 has since left the movement. She has a lot of 1:18:31.840 --> 1:18:36.040 regret about her involvement in that time period. And you know, 1:18:36.080 --> 1:18:37.679 there's a little people have a lot of mixed feelings 1:18:37.680 --> 1:18:39.280 about what it means to leave the movement, what it 1:18:39.280 --> 1:18:41.639 means to a tone, is it possible to redeem yourself 1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:43.680 for having been a part of something like that. We 1:18:43.720 --> 1:18:47.880 don't have to litigate that, but we do have to, Well, 1:18:47.880 --> 1:18:51.400 we do have to recognize that her testimony is damning. 1:18:52.040 --> 1:18:53.920 I mean, this is not this is not Elliott Klein 1:18:54.040 --> 1:18:55.880 putting on a show in public. This is not Elliott 1:18:55.920 --> 1:18:58.800 Klein posturing for his friends. This is Eli at home 1:18:58.840 --> 1:19:01.439 in bed with his girlfriend talking about his fantasies of 1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:08.440 killing all the Jews. Um, and her testimony was pretty harmful. Um, 1:19:08.920 --> 1:19:13.160 you wouldn't think, yeah, it's not great. You know. Really 1:19:14.040 --> 1:19:15.840 you have to wonder how the jury is taking this 1:19:15.960 --> 1:19:19.120 right these people who have no concept or context for 1:19:19.240 --> 1:19:23.559 this for years. Yea hours of this woman sort of 1:19:24.520 --> 1:19:27.120 near tears talking about how her boyfriend said that he 1:19:27.160 --> 1:19:29.400 was going to put her in a breeding camp once 1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:35.479 they had the ethno state. Uh. Not nice, really not 1:19:35.640 --> 1:19:38.720 nice stuff. And she also tested You know, we have 1:19:38.800 --> 1:19:41.080 the messages from the discord where people are posting memes 1:19:41.080 --> 1:19:44.720 and jokes about hitting protesters, but Samantha testified that at 1:19:44.720 --> 1:19:47.600 private parties at Richard Spencer's house in the summer. Of 1:19:48.520 --> 1:19:51.639 these private parties with the organizers of the event at 1:19:51.720 --> 1:19:58.519 Richard Spencer's apartment, people explicitly discussed the legality of hitting 1:19:58.560 --> 1:20:02.800 people with their cars. This is not random people in 1:20:02.840 --> 1:20:04.960 the discord that Richards could say, oh, I don't know him, 1:20:05.000 --> 1:20:07.160 I never met him. I never posted in discord. This 1:20:07.200 --> 1:20:13.600 is somebody sitting on your couch Richard. Um. Yeah, And 1:20:13.720 --> 1:20:16.439 you know, Samantha said that during that time period, um 1:20:16.640 --> 1:20:20.519 Klein was building an army for Richard, and Kessler texted, 1:20:20.560 --> 1:20:23.160 Spencer is something similar, right that, where we'll build an army, 1:20:23.280 --> 1:20:29.519 my liege fucking dorcass ship. But when one fun surprise 1:20:29.560 --> 1:20:32.960 from Samantha was that during that time period Klein was, 1:20:33.160 --> 1:20:36.760 you know, planning to provide his militia in the form 1:20:36.760 --> 1:20:38.880 of Adentnity Europa, right at least these street troops he 1:20:38.920 --> 1:20:41.639 was going to provide to Spencer to build the movement, 1:20:41.960 --> 1:20:44.160 but that when the time came, he always knew that 1:20:44.200 --> 1:20:49.800 he would kill Richard to take control. These people are 1:20:49.840 --> 1:20:54.839 all such fucking it's a shame that what they actually 1:20:54.880 --> 1:21:00.759 are is deniable assets for the most day juris folks, 1:21:00.800 --> 1:21:04.720 you know, the fucking the fucking Bannon types, because if 1:21:04.760 --> 1:21:07.519 if all of the fascists were this dumb, I wouldn't 1:21:07.560 --> 1:21:10.920 be so worried. And it's hard, it's hard to walk 1:21:10.960 --> 1:21:14.400 the line between you know, really getting a kick out 1:21:14.439 --> 1:21:17.640 of some of these moments where you're genuinely funny, right, 1:21:17.640 --> 1:21:20.080 but you remember, like, these people are very dangerous. These 1:21:20.080 --> 1:21:23.360 people are responsible for a death. These people, it's this 1:21:23.400 --> 1:21:26.400 emotional whiplash right of the plaintiffs getting on and saying, yes, 1:21:26.439 --> 1:21:28.960 my life was ruined. I still have nightmares, I still 1:21:28.960 --> 1:21:31.920 have to go to physical therapy. And then can't Well 1:21:31.920 --> 1:21:35.960 getting up there and asking Heimbach if he's a federal agent, right, 1:21:36.080 --> 1:21:38.640 like I think so, We've only seen one of the 1:21:38.680 --> 1:21:40.439 defendants on the stand so far, but I have a 1:21:40.479 --> 1:21:43.480 strong feeling can't Well, it's going to use every opportunity 1:21:43.479 --> 1:21:46.080 that he has his frenemies under oath to ask them 1:21:46.080 --> 1:21:49.200 if they snitched on him. Yeah, that's that's going to 1:21:49.240 --> 1:21:51.760 be pretty funny. It's gonna be great. You gotta laugh 1:21:52.200 --> 1:21:56.479 sometimes life's too hard. But Can't Well is really using this. 1:21:56.600 --> 1:21:58.800 I think you know he has nothing to lose, right, 1:21:58.840 --> 1:22:01.120 This is a case about damage is he has no 1:22:01.160 --> 1:22:03.320 money for them to take. He has thirty thousand dollars 1:22:03.320 --> 1:22:05.559 in credit card debt and his car got repossessed once 1:22:05.560 --> 1:22:08.400 he went to prison. He has nothing for them to take. 1:22:08.600 --> 1:22:10.760 The only person he knows who did have anything is 1:22:10.800 --> 1:22:13.400 Ian Freeman, who's currently facing federal charges for some sort 1:22:13.439 --> 1:22:18.520 of complicated bitcoin money laundering scam through a fake church. Um. 1:22:18.560 --> 1:22:21.479 So he doesn't even have any friends to help him. 1:22:21.520 --> 1:22:23.320 That's an interesting case, but I don't have time for 1:22:23.360 --> 1:22:26.519 it now. But he has, he has nothing for them 1:22:26.560 --> 1:22:28.560 to take. He's already a felon. He can't have a 1:22:28.600 --> 1:22:31.840 gun anymore. I think he's just using this as an opportunity, 1:22:32.160 --> 1:22:34.439 as a platform to get his message out there and 1:22:34.479 --> 1:22:37.080 to harm the people he thinks harmed him. So every 1:22:37.160 --> 1:22:41.439 chance he gets, he's trying to force witnesses to ducks people. Right. 1:22:41.560 --> 1:22:44.200 He asked one of the plaintiffs, Devin Willis, when another 1:22:44.240 --> 1:22:45.920 young man who was who was injured at the torch 1:22:45.960 --> 1:22:48.920 march um a plaintiff in this case, He asked him 1:22:48.960 --> 1:22:51.880 he forced him to name the names of the non 1:22:52.000 --> 1:22:56.360 parties who were also counter demonstrating at the statue. These 1:22:56.360 --> 1:22:58.920 people's names have not been on the record. They you know, 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:02.639 judgment at him. Do that made him do that? That's 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:07.479 and you know, you could if you were, I don't know, 1:23:07.680 --> 1:23:10.160 a complete baby brained idiot, you could say, well, you 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:12.000 know that maybe there was a legal reason that he 1:23:12.040 --> 1:23:14.800 needed those names. There's not, and we know there's not, 1:23:14.840 --> 1:23:17.439 because he tried to do it again today. Um. There 1:23:17.479 --> 1:23:19.559 was a non party witness, a young woman who lived 1:23:20.320 --> 1:23:22.639 in one of the dorm rooms right by the rotunda. 1:23:22.720 --> 1:23:25.639 They're called the lawn rooms. It's a prestigious opportunity. Only 1:23:25.720 --> 1:23:28.000 super high achievers get to live in those beautiful historic 1:23:28.080 --> 1:23:30.479 law rooms. So she lived right near where the torch 1:23:30.520 --> 1:23:32.120 mark was happening, and she heard it, and she went 1:23:32.120 --> 1:23:35.360 outside and she looked at it. Um, she's not a 1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:37.200 party to the suit. She has no knowledge of these 1:23:37.200 --> 1:23:39.719 people or what happened. She just saw this thing happen. 1:23:39.760 --> 1:23:42.439 And she testified to that, um, And he tried to 1:23:42.720 --> 1:23:46.280 you know. She had made some passing remark that she 1:23:46.360 --> 1:23:50.120 had heard from another student that maybe there would be 1:23:50.120 --> 1:23:52.280 a thing on campus right that they knew about the 1:23:52.320 --> 1:23:54.639 rally the next day, but like, I don't know, maybe 1:23:54.640 --> 1:23:56.960 these guys will try and come here, just like be 1:23:57.040 --> 1:24:00.680 on your toes right, not anything specific. Big. She was not. 1:24:00.760 --> 1:24:03.519 She's not an activist. She's not. She didn't know anything, right, 1:24:03.520 --> 1:24:05.920 And so he was grilled her, tell me who told 1:24:05.920 --> 1:24:07.439 you that? Tell me who told you that? How did 1:24:07.439 --> 1:24:10.759 you know that? And he said, on the record, direct quote, 1:24:11.360 --> 1:24:14.599 I want to know who infiltrated our communications. So he's 1:24:14.600 --> 1:24:16.760 trying to use this this moment where he has someone 1:24:16.840 --> 1:24:22.599 under oath to extract information about who snitched. He wants 1:24:22.640 --> 1:24:26.439 to know who infiltrated their secret communications, which is him 1:24:26.439 --> 1:24:29.440 admitting their secret communications that weren't turned over in discovery, 1:24:29.880 --> 1:24:32.800 which wasn't smart of him to do. But he's using 1:24:32.840 --> 1:24:37.799 this process to get names of people who he can harass. 1:24:37.880 --> 1:24:39.960 And we know that's what they're doing because while he 1:24:40.000 --> 1:24:42.000 was getting these names from that other witness, you know 1:24:42.040 --> 1:24:45.040 the names of the people at the statue. Jason Kessler, 1:24:45.520 --> 1:24:48.280 the lead defendant, right that, the defendant whose name is 1:24:48.280 --> 1:24:51.160 on the lawsuit, the lead organizer of the rally, is 1:24:51.200 --> 1:24:54.680 posting all this time. He's posting through it, posting through it. 1:24:54.680 --> 1:24:56.200 If you had a good lawyer, he would tell you 1:24:56.240 --> 1:25:00.519 not to post through your own conspiracy trial. Um. So 1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:03.320 wal Cantwell is extracting these names from this poor young man. 1:25:03.920 --> 1:25:06.679 Kessler's posting them. He's posting their pictures and their legal 1:25:06.800 --> 1:25:10.280 names and describing their involvement. These people who are not 1:25:10.400 --> 1:25:12.559 party to this lawsuit. And there's no way to interpret 1:25:12.600 --> 1:25:15.880 that other than as as a vehicle for harassment. Um, 1:25:16.600 --> 1:25:18.600 so there's I think there will be there will be 1:25:18.640 --> 1:25:21.000 collateral damage of this lawsuit, but I hope that it 1:25:21.040 --> 1:25:26.200 does UM have the intended deterrent effect. Right, Um, sorry 1:25:26.360 --> 1:25:29.759 to be talking at length for a while, but just insummation, insummation, 1:25:29.800 --> 1:25:33.599 I think, UM. Inside the courtroom, this is a case 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:35.760 about damages. Right. The judge is very clear that like, 1:25:36.360 --> 1:25:39.080 stop talking about broader societal impact. You can't tell the 1:25:39.160 --> 1:25:41.240 jury about that. That's not relevant to this case. This, 1:25:41.439 --> 1:25:44.679 legally speaking, is a case about did this thing happen 1:25:44.920 --> 1:25:47.160 where these people hurt by it? What is the dollar 1:25:47.200 --> 1:25:50.839 amount of their pain? Legally speaking, that's it. But outside 1:25:50.880 --> 1:25:53.960 the courtroom, this is about deterrence, right, This is about 1:25:54.040 --> 1:25:56.920 setting a precedent that if you do this, if you 1:25:57.040 --> 1:25:59.960 plan a rally knowing that the people who come to 1:26:00.000 --> 1:26:02.000 your rally will hurt people because you told them that's 1:26:02.000 --> 1:26:04.920 the goal. Right. Even if you're not the one who 1:26:04.920 --> 1:26:07.200 swings the stick, even if you're not the one pressing 1:26:07.200 --> 1:26:10.480 the accelerator, you are responsible and you can be held accountable. 1:26:10.960 --> 1:26:15.000 Not as an important message, yeah, we will like your 1:26:15.040 --> 1:26:17.559 life will be ruined if you participate in this ship. 1:26:18.280 --> 1:26:20.000 That even if you don't have anything for us to take. 1:26:20.040 --> 1:26:22.080 We will put a garnishment on you that will follow 1:26:22.120 --> 1:26:26.479 you to the fucking grave. Yep. And I think, yeah, 1:26:26.600 --> 1:26:29.439 that's that's I would agree what I think is important here. 1:26:29.840 --> 1:26:32.960 Um Molly, I think that's that's everything. For now. We're 1:26:32.960 --> 1:26:34.519 still how much how much longer do we have to 1:26:34.560 --> 1:26:38.800 go through this? The court watch a jig. Well, it's 1:26:38.840 --> 1:26:41.960 scheduled for four weeks. It's been one and a half, 1:26:45.040 --> 1:26:47.759 and there was there was some some anxiety and handwringing 1:26:47.760 --> 1:26:51.559 about how maybe four weeks won't cut it. Yeah, Jesus, 1:26:51.640 --> 1:26:57.760 so I'm regretting my decision to actively live tweets. So 1:26:57.840 --> 1:27:00.880 like I'm transcribing in real time for eight hours a day. 1:27:01.000 --> 1:27:04.360 It happens your fingers are using a laptop. Are you 1:27:04.400 --> 1:27:06.679 doing it on a phone? I'm doing it on a laptop, 1:27:06.720 --> 1:27:09.040 thank God. So, because of covid um, no one can 1:27:09.080 --> 1:27:11.200 go into the courthouse because there's so many parties in 1:27:11.200 --> 1:27:13.599 this case, and there's the plague, and no one can 1:27:13.640 --> 1:27:15.840 go into the courthouse except for there's there's a press 1:27:15.960 --> 1:27:18.800 room where fifteen people who got pre approved by a 1:27:18.840 --> 1:27:20.760 federal court can go and sit and look at a 1:27:20.800 --> 1:27:24.439 monitor Um, but I'm sitting at home. I'm comfy at home, 1:27:24.800 --> 1:27:28.680 so I'm thank god. Yeah that would be and I was. 1:27:28.720 --> 1:27:30.400 I was disappointed. You know, I kind of wanted to 1:27:30.439 --> 1:27:32.800 see I love to see you, love the courtroom ambiance. 1:27:33.320 --> 1:27:36.599 But I'll be honest and less work. I'm way less 1:27:36.640 --> 1:27:40.160 worried about getting stabbed here at home. That is true. 1:27:40.240 --> 1:27:43.839 That is true. People are less likely to get stabbed 1:27:43.880 --> 1:27:47.640 at home, or more likely one of the two. Um, 1:27:47.680 --> 1:27:50.320 I don't know. Tell us in the comments where you 1:27:50.320 --> 1:27:55.759 think people are most likely to get stabbed. Uh and um, Molly, 1:27:55.920 --> 1:27:57.800 thank you so much. Thank you both for what you're 1:27:57.840 --> 1:28:00.000 doing and for coming on the show. Is there any 1:28:00.040 --> 1:28:05.040 where the listeners can find slash support you? Would you 1:28:05.080 --> 1:28:09.880 like people to mail you knives? What? Oh? Mail me knives? Yeah, 1:28:09.920 --> 1:28:12.000 but not as a threat, like as a fun thing, 1:28:12.240 --> 1:28:17.240 fun knives for fun. I did get a large machete 1:28:17.240 --> 1:28:18.840 in the mail the other day, and before I saw 1:28:18.880 --> 1:28:22.760 the little gift note, I was confused. Oh good, okay, 1:28:22.800 --> 1:28:25.960 I'm glad you're getting a gift machetes. Yeah. Yeah, my 1:28:25.960 --> 1:28:29.120 my friendship is a sheep farmer in North Carolina sent 1:28:29.200 --> 1:28:34.080 me a large blade. Yep. Um no, but So if 1:28:34.120 --> 1:28:38.240 you're interested in reading moment by moment live transcription of 1:28:38.600 --> 1:28:42.680 people screaming Holocaust denial at a federal judge, Um, you 1:28:42.720 --> 1:28:46.000 can check me out on Twitter. That's at Socialist Dog mom. 1:28:46.240 --> 1:28:48.360 That's what happens when you make a little joke with 1:28:48.439 --> 1:28:51.800 your friends, when you have five followers and um, and 1:28:51.800 --> 1:28:54.519 then you end up using it professionally, and then you 1:28:54.560 --> 1:28:58.599 wish national news repeatedly. I don't. Then people are posting 1:28:58.640 --> 1:29:02.120 your mug shot making fun. You know, your bullshit mug shot. 1:29:03.240 --> 1:29:07.200 You look great, but it's bullshit. Um, nobody looks good 1:29:07.200 --> 1:29:10.240 after they get left in a hot van like a dog. Yeah, 1:29:10.280 --> 1:29:17.559 but that's true. Well, Molly, that's gonna be the end 1:29:17.560 --> 1:29:20.439 of the episode. So why don't we, Why don't we 1:29:21.120 --> 1:29:25.400 sing a song and and and roll out? Hopefully not 1:29:25.479 --> 1:29:28.760 the song that Heimbuch included in his Christmas letter to 1:29:28.840 --> 1:29:31.559 James Fields in prison. Oh God, that must have been 1:29:31.600 --> 1:29:36.760 really special. Jeez, I'll have to look that up. I 1:29:36.800 --> 1:29:40.960 did come across in my my browsing through Fascist Telegram 1:29:41.000 --> 1:29:44.360 the other week, an entire album dozens of songs that 1:29:44.439 --> 1:29:51.320 we're all Nazi covers of Blink one eight two's entire discography, everything, everything, 1:29:51.920 --> 1:29:54.760 and they called it, of course, they called it blink like. 1:29:55.880 --> 1:29:59.880 Of course it was I don't I don't even know, 1:30:00.080 --> 1:30:04.000 like I don't even know like how to talk about that. 1:30:04.240 --> 1:30:06.360 It was just the thing that I found. Do you 1:30:06.360 --> 1:30:10.719 know hampt Install, the guy who studies malicious Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:30:10.760 --> 1:30:15.400 he's got a particular fascination with white power wrap. Oh god, yeah, 1:30:15.479 --> 1:30:18.080 it's never any good, although there was a there was 1:30:18.120 --> 1:30:20.839 a fun in one of the h Bomber Guy videos 1:30:20.880 --> 1:30:23.640 he found finds this flat earth Nazi who has a 1:30:23.640 --> 1:30:31.920 wrap that's amazing. Alright, partial, I'm partial to can't wells distracts, Yeah, god, 1:30:32.120 --> 1:30:37.639 Chris camp Well, well, thank you, Molly, and uh off 1:30:37.680 --> 1:30:41.960 we go into the wild blue yonder. I'm gonna go 1:30:41.960 --> 1:30:44.599 to smoke some legal weed and fall asleep, face down, 1:30:45.000 --> 1:30:47.800 hopefully not thinking about this trial. I Am not going 1:30:47.880 --> 1:30:52.320 to smoke some legal weed because that's federally a crime. Molly, 1:30:52.800 --> 1:31:02.840 have a good day, Molly, thank you for listening. When P. T. 1:31:02.960 --> 1:31:05.920 Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the grounds in eighteen 1:31:06.000 --> 1:31:09.320 sixty five, what rose from its ashes would change the world. 1:31:10.040 --> 1:31:13.599 Welcome to Grim and Mild presents an ongoing journey into 1:31:13.600 --> 1:31:18.120 the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. For our inaugural season, 1:31:18.160 --> 1:31:20.599 we'll be giving you a backstage tour of the always 1:31:20.640 --> 1:31:25.360 complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that is the American 1:31:25.479 --> 1:31:28.240 Side Show. So come along as we visit the shadowy 1:31:28.280 --> 1:31:31.000 corners of the stage and learn about the people who 1:31:31.000 --> 1:31:33.160 were at the center of it all in a place 1:31:33.160 --> 1:31:37.000 where spectacle was king. We will soon discover there's always 1:31:37.040 --> 1:31:40.040 more to the story than meets the eye, So step 1:31:40.160 --> 1:31:43.240 right up and get in line. Listen to Grim and 1:31:43.280 --> 1:31:46.680 Mild Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1:31:46.760 --> 1:31:50.360 or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at 1:31:50.360 --> 1:31:57.719 Grimm and Mild dot com. Slash Presents Executive producer Paris 1:31:57.760 --> 1:32:01.720 Helton brings back the hit podcast How Men Think. And 1:32:02.040 --> 1:32:04.960 that's good news for anyone that is confused by men, 1:32:05.320 --> 1:32:08.720 which is basically everyone get an inside look at what 1:32:08.800 --> 1:32:11.840 goes on in the mind of men from the men themselves. 1:32:12.080 --> 1:32:15.639 It's real talk, straight from the source. How Men Think 1:32:15.680 --> 1:32:18.320 podcast is exactly what we need to figure them out. 1:32:18.600 --> 1:32:21.559 It's going to be fun and formative and probably a 1:32:21.560 --> 1:32:24.960 bit scary at times because we're literally going inside the 1:32:25.000 --> 1:32:27.639 minds of men. As much as we like to think 1:32:27.760 --> 1:32:32.000 all men are the same, they're actually very different. Each week, 1:32:32.120 --> 1:32:35.679 a celebrity guest host provides honest advice in his area 1:32:35.760 --> 1:32:38.600 of expertise. When I agreed to do this reboot, I 1:32:38.640 --> 1:32:43.000 had a few conditions. No sugarcoating, no mind games, and 1:32:43.080 --> 1:32:47.360 absolutely no man splaining. Men are hard enough to understand 1:32:47.360 --> 1:32:50.400 without the mind games. Listen to how Men Think on 1:32:50.439 --> 1:32:53.680 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 1:32:53.680 --> 1:32:57.080 get your podcasts. What's Up Guys on My Shop Aloud 1:32:57.120 --> 1:32:58.760 and I am Troy Millions and we are the wholes 1:32:58.840 --> 1:33:01.280 of the Ernial Leisure pot Cast, where we break down 1:33:01.360 --> 1:33:04.639 business models and examine the latest trans and finance. We 1:33:04.680 --> 1:33:06.559 hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of the 1:33:06.560 --> 1:33:09.599 biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment, from DJ Khaled 1:33:09.680 --> 1:33:12.120 to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean 1:33:12.160 --> 1:33:15.120 our alumnilists expansive. Listen to as our guests reveal their 1:33:15.160 --> 1:33:18.000 business models, hardships and triumphs and their respective fields. The 1:33:18.080 --> 1:33:20.360 knowledge is in death and the questions are always delivered 1:33:20.400 --> 1:33:22.680 from your standpoint. We want to know what you want 1:33:22.680 --> 1:33:25.599 to know. We talked to the legends of business, sports, 1:33:25.640 --> 1:33:28.759 and entertainment about how they got their start and most importantly, 1:33:28.760 --> 1:33:30.800 how they make their money. Earn your Leisia is a 1:33:30.840 --> 1:33:33.120 college business class mixed with pop culture. I want to 1:33:33.200 --> 1:33:35.719 learn about the real estate game, unclears, how the stock 1:33:35.760 --> 1:33:38.400 market works. We got you interested in starting a truck 1:33:38.400 --> 1:33:40.960 and company or vending machine business. Not really sure about 1:33:41.040 --> 1:33:43.799 how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered. 1:33:43.840 --> 1:33:46.960 The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier 1:33:47.040 --> 1:33:50.360 Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app, 1:33:50.600 --> 1:34:06.920 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back 1:34:06.960 --> 1:34:10.560 to it could happen here. The podcast that is occasionally 1:34:10.680 --> 1:34:15.160 introduced competently as it sort of was today because our 1:34:15.200 --> 1:34:18.519 guest today is someone who is very near and dear 1:34:18.880 --> 1:34:22.840 uh to me and to like almost every other person 1:34:23.000 --> 1:34:28.080 that I know and work with. Um, Moira Meltzer Cohen. Moira, 1:34:28.280 --> 1:34:32.640 you are a lawyer, uh, focusing on civil rights and 1:34:32.720 --> 1:34:35.719 movement kind of cases. Uh. And you are the lawyer 1:34:35.840 --> 1:34:44.000 of yeah, like every everybody I respect in the world. Yeah. Um, 1:34:44.040 --> 1:34:46.639 You're the person that I text whenever I need to know, Hey, 1:34:47.280 --> 1:34:51.360 was this a crime? Um or it never is, and 1:34:51.400 --> 1:34:56.080 it never is. I'm law abiding, very law abiding. UM, 1:34:56.120 --> 1:34:59.200 and uh, yeah, we wanted to have you on both 1:34:59.240 --> 1:35:02.800 because you're always a breath of sunshine and because, um, 1:35:02.840 --> 1:35:05.120 there's some like lost stuff happening these days. We just 1:35:05.200 --> 1:35:08.400 had our mutual friend Molly Conjure on to talk about 1:35:08.400 --> 1:35:12.400 the Charlottesville case, which is quite a thing. Today was 1:35:12.439 --> 1:35:16.880 the day today. Today had some had some moments, Chris 1:35:16.920 --> 1:35:21.519 can't Well and Richard Spencer representing themselves separately, each cross 1:35:21.560 --> 1:35:27.680 examining each other. I have so many thoughts, but mostly 1:35:28.000 --> 1:35:33.400 my thoughts involved laughing. It's very very funny. It's it's 1:35:33.479 --> 1:35:37.520 it's the funniest of of an incredibly tragic and infuriating situation. 1:35:37.880 --> 1:35:42.000 Something finely funny finally happened. Um, so at least there's 1:35:42.000 --> 1:35:48.160 that often very funny in spite of himself. Yeah, um, 1:35:48.200 --> 1:35:49.960 I would love one day to just get you on 1:35:50.040 --> 1:35:51.560 and duo, we can do a reading of some of 1:35:51.640 --> 1:35:55.920 Chris can't Well's better legal filings. Um. These guys quite 1:35:55.920 --> 1:36:00.400 the legal mind, Robert. I think I maybe didn't ever 1:36:00.800 --> 1:36:05.160 tell you about the fact that we um did a 1:36:05.280 --> 1:36:09.040 quorums feel, which is a performance of the story of 1:36:09.240 --> 1:36:13.880 Esther Um, Oh my God, traditionally done at Poorham, which 1:36:13.920 --> 1:36:17.400 is a Jewish holiday UM, and it was based on 1:36:17.840 --> 1:36:25.840 the complaint that he filed God. Those of Twitter the 1:36:25.920 --> 1:36:31.120 third was prominently featured in the role of Hayman. For 1:36:31.160 --> 1:36:33.320 the those of you who don't know, Chris Cantwell, the 1:36:33.360 --> 1:36:36.080 crying Nazi from the Unite the Right rally has been 1:36:36.120 --> 1:36:39.560 incarcerated for a year or so now UM and continues 1:36:39.640 --> 1:36:43.439 to put out his own legal motions, generally handwritten UM, 1:36:43.479 --> 1:36:46.680 alleging all kinds of conspiracies from the people who did 1:36:46.720 --> 1:36:49.919 not call the FBI and admit to committing several crimes. 1:36:50.960 --> 1:36:53.479 We should, we should absolutely absolutely do a crossover with 1:36:53.560 --> 1:37:00.040 dandel Harper um and to discuss Wells legal genius. But 1:37:00.040 --> 1:37:02.240 but today more we wanted to have you on because 1:37:02.280 --> 1:37:05.599 there is another case that a lot of folks are 1:37:05.720 --> 1:37:09.520 rightly concerned about, because it has some pretty dire implications 1:37:09.560 --> 1:37:11.759 depending on how it goes in a number of ways. 1:37:12.200 --> 1:37:16.320 The trial of Kyle Rittenhouse UM. For the I mean, 1:37:16.360 --> 1:37:19.799 everyone knows Kyle written House took a gun illegally across 1:37:19.840 --> 1:37:22.080 state lines to a protest so he might have the 1:37:22.160 --> 1:37:24.880 chance to shoot people. Um. And then shot people. This 1:37:24.960 --> 1:37:28.120 is my opinion about what happened. Obviously, the legal case 1:37:28.240 --> 1:37:32.040 is unfolding. UM. There's been a lot of talk online 1:37:32.280 --> 1:37:35.840 on on Twitter and whatnot about how obviously unfair the 1:37:35.920 --> 1:37:38.200 judges being. This is what the talk on Twitter is about. 1:37:39.400 --> 1:37:41.080 And it's because of a couple of things. One is 1:37:41.120 --> 1:37:44.320 that the judge and and again I'm before I cut, 1:37:44.360 --> 1:37:46.400 I go to you, Moira. I'm just explaining kind of 1:37:46.400 --> 1:37:48.680 the way the discourse has been. The discourse has stated like, well, 1:37:48.680 --> 1:37:51.840 the judge said, you can't call Kyle, you can't call 1:37:51.880 --> 1:37:54.800 the people that he killed victims, but you can call 1:37:54.880 --> 1:37:57.880 the people that he killed looters and arsonists. Um. And 1:37:57.920 --> 1:38:00.439 so people are saying, look at this very clear example 1:38:00.479 --> 1:38:03.960 of how how bad the justice system is. UM. And 1:38:04.000 --> 1:38:05.840 I wanted to bring you on for a number of reasons, 1:38:05.840 --> 1:38:08.360 including the fact that, like there's a lot of stuff 1:38:08.400 --> 1:38:11.280 that seems fucked up and in fact is sucked up, 1:38:11.280 --> 1:38:14.280 you could argue, but it's also like like pretty normal 1:38:14.360 --> 1:38:16.920 justice system stuff and some stuff that seems fucked up 1:38:16.920 --> 1:38:19.800 but actually isn't. This is not I'm not necessarily talking 1:38:19.800 --> 1:38:21.720 about the Rittenhouse case here, just in general, and we 1:38:21.720 --> 1:38:23.880 talk about the law. So I guess I wanted to 1:38:23.920 --> 1:38:26.840 have you on to explain to us what's happening in 1:38:27.240 --> 1:38:31.320 your opinion and how normal, abnormal, good, bad are kind 1:38:31.360 --> 1:38:33.759 of the things that we're seeing, the decisions we're seeing 1:38:33.760 --> 1:38:37.840 this judge make UM in this case so far, Yeah, sure, 1:38:37.960 --> 1:38:41.439 absolutely so. The trial, UM, I think when you asked 1:38:41.439 --> 1:38:46.000 me to comment on this, Um, the trial had not started. 1:38:46.560 --> 1:38:51.559 The trial has now started. It has been characterized by 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:58.559 the defense saying the N word be here this morning, 1:38:58.600 --> 1:39:03.160 I think was dismissed for making a cruel and nakedly 1:39:03.320 --> 1:39:06.920 racist joke. Uh. And apparently the judge had a fit 1:39:07.000 --> 1:39:10.599 of peak about the media's response to his evidentiary rulings, 1:39:10.600 --> 1:39:14.559 which are what you've asked me to come discuss, um, 1:39:14.600 --> 1:39:18.759 Which is itself actually one of the more unusual things 1:39:18.800 --> 1:39:23.639 about this how this trial is going. Um. It's always 1:39:23.680 --> 1:39:25.800 a little bit hard for me to appine on a 1:39:25.960 --> 1:39:30.880 case that is not my case. UM. I feel tentative 1:39:30.920 --> 1:39:34.960 about it. Um. This would never be my case because 1:39:35.000 --> 1:39:38.160 I would not represent a white supremacist, and I am 1:39:38.200 --> 1:39:42.559 not a prosecutor and would never be a prosecutor. And 1:39:43.479 --> 1:39:48.000 I was not able to look at the briefing, because 1:39:48.040 --> 1:39:52.680 although all of the briefing was ostensibly publicly filed, it 1:39:52.840 --> 1:39:56.840 is not actually publicly available. UM. I had a very 1:39:56.880 --> 1:40:00.559 interesting conversation with the Clerk of court and Kenosha told 1:40:00.560 --> 1:40:03.960 me that if I mailed her a request, she would 1:40:04.200 --> 1:40:08.839 fax me the briefing at a dollar twenty five a page. 1:40:08.880 --> 1:40:12.559 And I said, thank you very much, goodbye. UM. So 1:40:12.880 --> 1:40:15.679 I'll do my best to speak to these rulings, UM, 1:40:16.360 --> 1:40:19.679 and the sort of larger issues as I see them. UM. 1:40:19.720 --> 1:40:21.439 As you noted, there's been a lot of kind of 1:40:21.479 --> 1:40:25.639 salacious headlines about the evidence here in this case, UM, 1:40:25.680 --> 1:40:29.519 and I think those headlines are really they're less about 1:40:29.560 --> 1:40:31.760 what's actually happening in the case, and they're more reflective 1:40:31.760 --> 1:40:36.040 of the sort of pearl clutching UM liberal impulse to 1:40:36.040 --> 1:40:41.519 to notice the totally self evident hypocrisy of the legal system. UH, 1:40:41.560 --> 1:40:44.599 and then to conclude that because certain groups are shown 1:40:44.600 --> 1:40:48.680 more leniency, the way to resolve this hypocrisy is to 1:40:48.720 --> 1:40:52.400 make sure everyone is pleased and prosecuted and punished as 1:40:52.479 --> 1:40:58.280 viciously as the left is, which is not actually the 1:40:58.280 --> 1:41:02.799 goal that I have. And just to clarify when I 1:41:02.800 --> 1:41:06.200 when I talk about liberals as I as I will 1:41:06.280 --> 1:41:09.160 probably do a little bit. Um. I don't mean like, 1:41:10.160 --> 1:41:13.519 I mean liberal as opposed to radical Um. People who 1:41:13.520 --> 1:41:18.120 are more or less okay with the underlying big systems, uh, 1:41:18.200 --> 1:41:22.040 like capitalism and white dipremacy and hetero patriarchy and like, 1:41:22.200 --> 1:41:26.960 maybe are more concerned with the iterations of those things 1:41:26.960 --> 1:41:30.760 that are particularly ghost but they don't actually mind the 1:41:30.800 --> 1:41:34.160 systems themselves that or the way that those systems are 1:41:34.200 --> 1:41:41.760 reiterated and enforced by, for example, the American criminal legal system. UM. 1:41:41.880 --> 1:41:44.439 So you know, I think the kind of liberal read 1:41:44.640 --> 1:41:50.120 on these rulings is not only not legally sound, um, 1:41:50.160 --> 1:41:55.000 I think it's actually incredibly dangerous. And it's watching this 1:41:55.120 --> 1:41:58.280 unfold and watching the liberal commentary on it, I think 1:41:58.439 --> 1:42:00.559 is one of the things. It's one of the ways 1:42:00.560 --> 1:42:07.120 that I can really see liberal liberals and liberalism losing credibility, um, 1:42:07.120 --> 1:42:11.600 because because they're sort of calling out this hypocrisy and 1:42:11.640 --> 1:42:13.160 at the same time, there's a little bit of a 1:42:13.160 --> 1:42:16.639 double standard that they want to um, that they want 1:42:16.720 --> 1:42:19.880 to propose an enforce UM. So okay, So I'll talk 1:42:19.920 --> 1:42:22.760 about the rulings that you discussed. UM. The first one 1:42:22.800 --> 1:42:26.479 is that the judge. Um, so that the prosecution is 1:42:26.520 --> 1:42:28.639 not allowed to refer to the people at in House 1:42:28.720 --> 1:42:33.280 killed as victims. Um. I will remind you, as I 1:42:33.320 --> 1:42:37.920 remind all of my clients continuously, UM, that the law 1:42:38.040 --> 1:42:43.040 is at best adjacent to common sense understandings of justice 1:42:43.080 --> 1:42:49.800 and even frankly common sense understandings of reality. Um. Obviously 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:54.280 the people that Kyle Rittenkow's killed were victims. Um. But 1:42:54.479 --> 1:43:01.560 as my beloved colleague Sandy reminded me, uh it, the 1:43:01.600 --> 1:43:05.479 concept of victimhood, the status of victimhood is among the 1:43:05.520 --> 1:43:08.479 things that needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt 1:43:08.479 --> 1:43:13.200 at this trial. Yeah right, um. And so in in fact, 1:43:13.960 --> 1:43:17.799 this is a totally straightforward ruling. It is a ruling 1:43:17.840 --> 1:43:20.479 that I would argue for as a defense attorney and 1:43:20.520 --> 1:43:24.360 that I expect to win where I trying in murder case. 1:43:25.439 --> 1:43:30.320 So you know, it's one of those things like you 1:43:30.400 --> 1:43:34.240 have to overcome this, this you have to overcome when 1:43:34.280 --> 1:43:36.439 you're thinking about a trial, like the fact that you 1:43:36.479 --> 1:43:39.360 know he's guilty, because the point of a trial is 1:43:39.400 --> 1:43:42.800 that everyone like there's a process. Right, we don't just 1:43:42.880 --> 1:43:47.320 do street justice because that's what written House did. Um. 1:43:47.479 --> 1:43:51.120 Like we're we're you have to like one of the 1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:53.760 It is troubling to me the extent that people are like, well, 1:43:53.760 --> 1:43:57.360 he he should be presumed like we should be referring 1:43:57.400 --> 1:43:59.760 to the people he shot as victims before he has 1:43:59.800 --> 1:44:03.479 been adjudicated as guilty, because like, that's that's important, Like 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:07.080 the presumption of innocence matters, and it's it's it's also 1:44:07.160 --> 1:44:10.759 something that's very unfair, Like there's a person in Portland, 1:44:11.320 --> 1:44:14.960 Alexander Dial, who got in trouble for taking a hammer 1:44:14.960 --> 1:44:18.040 out of a Nazi's hand during a rally um and 1:44:18.080 --> 1:44:20.760 has been charged with several felonies and because his trial 1:44:20.840 --> 1:44:22.960 kept getting delayed, spent two and a half years under 1:44:23.040 --> 1:44:26.559 pre trial conditions. So the presumption of innocence is hardly equal, 1:44:26.720 --> 1:44:31.200 but it is important. Yeah, exactly, and I think that 1:44:32.360 --> 1:44:35.320 you know, we'll talk about this, I think in a 1:44:35.320 --> 1:44:40.120 little bit, but that's exactly the issue, right, is that, um, 1:44:40.280 --> 1:44:44.160 we need to be enforcing the equal application of the 1:44:44.200 --> 1:44:49.559 presumption of innocence, not being you know, rapidly going after 1:44:49.960 --> 1:44:52.639 the right in the same way that we are used 1:44:52.680 --> 1:44:57.800 to uh law enforcement and the judiciary going after the left. UM. 1:44:57.920 --> 1:45:03.200 The other ruling that the made um which you mentioned 1:45:03.360 --> 1:45:07.800 was that he said that the defense is authorized to 1:45:07.960 --> 1:45:10.880 characterize the people that written has killed as looters or 1:45:11.000 --> 1:45:13.559 rioters if there's evidence presented that they were in fact 1:45:13.600 --> 1:45:18.120 looting and were rioting. I would, if I were, you know, 1:45:18.320 --> 1:45:21.719 in this case, which of course I'm not, I would 1:45:21.760 --> 1:45:24.840 object to this on the grounds that it is prejudicial 1:45:24.920 --> 1:45:29.400 in bullshit and it's sucked up in bullshit. Yeah. Yes, 1:45:29.720 --> 1:45:33.960 that said, I am not super surprised by that ruling. UM. 1:45:34.080 --> 1:45:37.640 I would say, it's likely within the sound discretion of 1:45:37.680 --> 1:45:41.240 the judge and if you know, when if the prosecution disagrees, 1:45:41.240 --> 1:45:47.960 it's a matter for appeal. UM. You know, I think, UM. 1:45:48.000 --> 1:45:50.839 One of the things the judge said about this, actually 1:45:50.840 --> 1:45:55.360 that I think is really important and correct, UM, is 1:45:55.920 --> 1:45:59.320 that he has uh a tremendous amount of discretion in 1:45:59.439 --> 1:46:02.760 making of an and cherry rulings. Rulings. UM. One of 1:46:02.800 --> 1:46:06.320 the rulings he made was that he's admitting the testimony 1:46:06.320 --> 1:46:09.760 of an expert witness, UM, which you know, I think 1:46:09.760 --> 1:46:14.160 a lot of people are also quite upset about. UM. 1:46:14.200 --> 1:46:17.680 But that said, again, this is not that unusual, and 1:46:17.720 --> 1:46:21.000 it's very difficult for him to deny that motion to 1:46:21.040 --> 1:46:25.160 have his evidence or his testimony admitted because the prosecution 1:46:25.479 --> 1:46:30.960 routinely uses use of force experts in similar trials. Um. 1:46:31.000 --> 1:46:34.040 So now we're they're just on the other side of 1:46:34.080 --> 1:46:38.960 the table. Yeah. So you know, first of all, I 1:46:39.040 --> 1:46:43.240 get that these rulings don't make us feel good. Um, 1:46:43.240 --> 1:46:46.560 but they aren't that strange. And as I said, the 1:46:46.640 --> 1:46:50.720 judge has tremendous discretion in these matters. Um. I was 1:46:50.800 --> 1:46:53.280 thinking about how to illustrate this, and it occurred to 1:46:53.280 --> 1:46:54.920 me that I think the last time I was on 1:46:54.920 --> 1:47:00.840 one of your podcasts, you asked me whether cocaine was illegal. Yeah, um, 1:47:00.920 --> 1:47:03.519 what are we landing on that? By the way, so 1:47:03.600 --> 1:47:05.600 I think the first time you asked me, I was 1:47:05.640 --> 1:47:08.840 a total kill joy and was like, of course it's 1:47:08.840 --> 1:47:12.719 a legal provert um. But if I had actually taken 1:47:12.760 --> 1:47:15.479 your question more seriously, I think a better answer probably 1:47:15.520 --> 1:47:21.200 would have been nobody knows. Um. For precisely this reason, 1:47:21.960 --> 1:47:24.759 because the real question is not what the law says. 1:47:25.479 --> 1:47:31.080 The real question is how, or whether, or against whom, 1:47:31.400 --> 1:47:34.680 or to what degree and under what circumstances will that 1:47:34.760 --> 1:47:39.840 law be enforced? And these are always open questions and arguments, 1:47:39.840 --> 1:47:42.240 and judges have a ton of power this case is 1:47:42.400 --> 1:47:45.880 no exception. So you know, again, not only are these 1:47:45.960 --> 1:47:49.360 rulings pretty standard, but there I think within the judge's discretion. 1:47:49.479 --> 1:47:52.439 Some of them I really dislike. Some of them make 1:47:52.520 --> 1:47:56.519 total sense to me. Um, and I think that what 1:47:56.760 --> 1:48:02.840 is happening is is not necessarily sound legal analysis, but 1:48:03.120 --> 1:48:05.640 liberals sort of trying to argue that Writtenhouse should be 1:48:05.720 --> 1:48:10.080 more harshly prosecuted by saying that these specific rulings are 1:48:10.160 --> 1:48:14.360 unfair or unusual. It's a little bit like the liberals 1:48:14.400 --> 1:48:16.519 crying out now because people are putting like, let's go 1:48:16.600 --> 1:48:19.599 brandon on printing it on rifle receivers and saying like, well, 1:48:19.640 --> 1:48:22.240 the Secret Service should investigate it. Well, if they do that, 1:48:22.320 --> 1:48:24.680 then some then like thirty if they do that, and 1:48:24.760 --> 1:48:27.640 like one company gets a fine, forty people are going 1:48:27.640 --> 1:48:29.559 to go to prison for having red flags on their 1:48:29.600 --> 1:48:33.080 body armor. Like that's the way it works in this country. 1:48:33.160 --> 1:48:35.800 But the right thing, Yeah, any any anarchists for the 1:48:35.800 --> 1:48:38.600 three D printer is gonna immediately go to jail. Yeah 1:48:38.640 --> 1:48:43.120 that's not like that is correct. Yeah, So I guess 1:48:43.240 --> 1:48:44.760 the thing that I want to point out here is 1:48:44.760 --> 1:48:47.559 that what is actually unusual about this case is not 1:48:47.640 --> 1:48:50.760 these rulings, it is that Written House is going to 1:48:50.920 --> 1:48:54.519 trial at all. And the reason Written House is going 1:48:54.560 --> 1:48:57.400 to trial is able to go to trial is largely 1:48:57.400 --> 1:49:03.639 because this prosecution is fundamentally calculated it not to be repressive. UM. So, 1:49:03.760 --> 1:49:06.080 I want to kind of zoom out and get away 1:49:06.080 --> 1:49:11.600 from the weeds of the potentiary rulings. Um So, in 1:49:11.720 --> 1:49:14.920 its simplest expression, when we talk about the difference between 1:49:14.960 --> 1:49:21.560 state and federal jurisdiction, we're saying, kind of, um, jurisdiction 1:49:21.600 --> 1:49:26.680 for dummies, Uh, overly simplified is stuff that happens inside 1:49:26.800 --> 1:49:30.760 or only impacts a given state is typically prosecuted by 1:49:30.760 --> 1:49:34.599 the state. And if it impacts if your offense conduct 1:49:34.680 --> 1:49:39.760 or alleged defense conduct impacts more than one state, um, 1:49:39.840 --> 1:49:43.960 then it is or can be prosecuted by the federal 1:49:44.040 --> 1:49:49.479 Department of Justice. So Kyle Rittenhouse crosss state lines with 1:49:49.600 --> 1:49:54.160 a pretty serious firearm and he shot three people. This 1:49:54.920 --> 1:49:59.640 puts us immediately into a federal jurisdiction land. Um. He 1:50:00.040 --> 1:50:02.400 did this in the context of an uprising for racial 1:50:02.479 --> 1:50:05.559 justice that has been characterized by the fact that those 1:50:05.680 --> 1:50:08.680 rising up on the side of racial justice have been 1:50:08.760 --> 1:50:12.760 subject to intense repression by the federal government. D o 1:50:12.880 --> 1:50:16.640 J has shown themselves to be fire breathingly enthusiastic of 1:50:16.760 --> 1:50:22.439 opicizing their jurisdiction over heavy offenses based on totally tenuous 1:50:22.479 --> 1:50:27.760 grounds um for people on the left or who are 1:50:27.800 --> 1:50:31.120 perceived to be on the left. UM. D o J 1:50:31.280 --> 1:50:35.599 has asserted jurisdiction in order to prosecute people for um, 1:50:35.640 --> 1:50:40.479 absolutely trivial but politically motivated offenses that would be left 1:50:40.520 --> 1:50:46.120 to the state to prosecute absent the politics of the accused. UM. 1:50:46.240 --> 1:50:50.559 They have a certain federal jurisdiction on really flimsy basis, 1:50:50.680 --> 1:50:55.799 like that a local police building or vehicle um, belongs 1:50:55.840 --> 1:50:58.719 to a department that has received federal funding, so property 1:50:58.800 --> 1:51:02.599 damage against it comes a federal offense. One thing they're 1:51:02.600 --> 1:51:05.280 doing that is unusual is the federal government is as 1:51:05.320 --> 1:51:09.559 certain concurrent jurisdiction to prosecute offenses. So I know there's 1:51:09.600 --> 1:51:15.560 someone in Courtland who is simultaneously being prosecuted by MULTNOMA 1:51:15.680 --> 1:51:21.200 and also the federal government UM for allegedly throwing some 1:51:21.280 --> 1:51:26.600 accelerant on a police building. UM. Right, So it is 1:51:26.720 --> 1:51:31.599 very curious that written House who quite clearly did something 1:51:31.640 --> 1:51:36.240 that would you know fall under federal jurisdiction is not 1:51:36.320 --> 1:51:39.840 being federally charged, and it matters a lot for how 1:51:39.880 --> 1:51:45.280 the case proceeds, UM, because the way that federal prosecutions 1:51:45.360 --> 1:51:52.240 operate is that the Feds will typically stack these indictments 1:51:52.600 --> 1:51:56.559 UM in a way that really puts tremendous pressure on 1:51:56.640 --> 1:52:00.320 them to plead guilty UM, which is not typicly the 1:52:00.360 --> 1:52:03.040 case or it doesn't happen in the same way in 1:52:03.080 --> 1:52:08.080 a state prosecution. So UM, you have these staffed indictments 1:52:08.080 --> 1:52:13.360 with multiple, multiple counts ranging you know, all all kinds 1:52:13.400 --> 1:52:17.800 of conduct UM, often involving you know, a conspiracy, which 1:52:17.840 --> 1:52:20.960 can be very very easy to prove UM, and a 1:52:20.960 --> 1:52:23.960 guilty finding on any of those counts could be like 1:52:24.000 --> 1:52:27.160 a mandatory minimum of five to ten years. And then 1:52:27.200 --> 1:52:30.280 if you're looking at, um, you know, a guilty on 1:52:30.800 --> 1:52:33.880 more than one or all of those counts, you're looking 1:52:33.920 --> 1:52:38.680 at a sentence potentially concurrent sentences that are tantamount to 1:52:38.760 --> 1:52:44.240 dying in prison. Right. And so this creates tremendous pressure 1:52:44.320 --> 1:52:48.720 on federal defendants to negotiate a pre trial disposition to 1:52:48.760 --> 1:52:53.000 take a guilty plea UM. So again, Kyle Writtenhouse crosses 1:52:53.080 --> 1:52:56.680 state lines with this firearm which gets used in the 1:52:56.840 --> 1:52:59.880 in the commission of an act of violence. And I 1:53:00.080 --> 1:53:03.960 feel extremely confident that any federal prosecutor could come up 1:53:04.000 --> 1:53:07.760 with a stack of counts against him within about ten 1:53:07.800 --> 1:53:14.920 minutes without breaking a sweat um. But you know, so 1:53:15.160 --> 1:53:17.400 you know, if you think about him being in that position, 1:53:18.880 --> 1:53:21.760 you think through, Okay, if I go to trial, what 1:53:22.000 --> 1:53:27.080 is what are likely outcomes if Kyle Rittenhouse went to 1:53:27.160 --> 1:53:32.240 trial federally, and even if he prevailed on a self 1:53:32.479 --> 1:53:36.920 defense right, which which could happen if you were found 1:53:36.960 --> 1:53:40.960 guilty on one or more of the lesser charges, he 1:53:41.000 --> 1:53:45.360 would still be looking at really really serious time. Right. 1:53:45.680 --> 1:53:49.679 But that's not where we are, right, Um, we are 1:53:49.800 --> 1:53:53.280 in a really weird place where like in a federal context, 1:53:54.040 --> 1:53:59.479 we wouldn't even be like talking about evidentiary rulings because uh, 1:53:59.520 --> 1:54:03.439 he would almost certainly not be going to trial, right 1:54:06.600 --> 1:54:09.439 or you know, if he had a reasonable lawyer, he 1:54:09.439 --> 1:54:12.800 would probably be negotiating a plea. I'm curious, what do 1:54:12.840 --> 1:54:14.920 you think about because one argument I've heard, and I'm 1:54:14.960 --> 1:54:17.800 certainly in no position to evaluate this personally, is that 1:54:18.320 --> 1:54:21.280 if federal charges had been placed on him, you know, 1:54:21.680 --> 1:54:26.760 when the crime Trump would have pardoned him. Um, I 1:54:26.800 --> 1:54:29.400 don't know. Yeah, Like I've heard people argue that that, like, well, 1:54:29.400 --> 1:54:31.599 at least with the state charges, he can't be pardoned 1:54:31.600 --> 1:54:34.200 by President Trump. Like, I'm in no position to really 1:54:34.200 --> 1:54:37.480 evaluate that, but I'm curious what you think about that. Hey, 1:54:37.520 --> 1:54:42.640 honestly can't even yeah, speculate about what might have happened. 1:54:42.680 --> 1:54:46.400 That is very interesting. I do think that if if 1:54:46.480 --> 1:54:48.480 d o j wanted to charge him at this point, 1:54:48.560 --> 1:54:54.919 I mean not but like there, I think wasn't opening 1:54:55.920 --> 1:55:00.200 for that to happen after Trump left. Expect there is 1:55:00.240 --> 1:55:03.000 a very interesting foy A request to be made to 1:55:03.120 --> 1:55:06.760 d o j UH to see what kind of memo 1:55:07.280 --> 1:55:09.760 was circulated about whether or not they were going to 1:55:10.400 --> 1:55:13.880 pick this one up. They clearly declined to prosecute Um. 1:55:15.480 --> 1:55:17.960 I the only thing that I could come up with, 1:55:18.040 --> 1:55:20.760 to be honest, and I looked and did not really 1:55:20.800 --> 1:55:24.720 see any meaningful discussion of this, of their decision not 1:55:24.800 --> 1:55:30.040 to prosecute Um. The only thing that occurred to me 1:55:30.120 --> 1:55:32.520 is that they might have been reluctant to a set 1:55:32.640 --> 1:55:37.640 jurisdiction over a minor, but they can prosecute anyone over 1:55:37.640 --> 1:55:40.080 the age of fifteen as an adult if they engage 1:55:40.080 --> 1:55:42.440 in violent crimes, or if they are alleged to have 1:55:42.480 --> 1:55:46.720 engaged in violent crimes. So that's not it wouldn't entirely 1:55:46.800 --> 1:55:51.800 undermine their ability to do so. UM. So you know, 1:55:51.920 --> 1:55:56.560 for whatever, you know, for whatever reason, they didn't, I 1:55:56.600 --> 1:55:59.360 think it is worth noting. I think it is, as 1:55:59.400 --> 1:56:03.600 I said, very curious. UM. And it's particularly curious in 1:56:03.720 --> 1:56:06.280 light of the intense federal repression that has been faced 1:56:06.360 --> 1:56:11.920 by people perceived to be on the left, you know. So, 1:56:12.080 --> 1:56:14.400 like again, I want to be very clear, I don't 1:56:14.880 --> 1:56:18.760 I'm not suggesting that I want him to be federally prosecuted. UM. 1:56:19.160 --> 1:56:23.120 I don't. Particularly I'm not interested in arguing for more 1:56:23.120 --> 1:56:27.600 prosecutions or for making the state the arbiter of political 1:56:27.680 --> 1:56:32.400 righteousness or um, giving the state more enforcement power or 1:56:32.480 --> 1:56:38.360 more resources. Um. You know. But you know, and look 1:56:38.360 --> 1:56:43.400 at no shade to Kenosha, Wisconsin. All right, But UM, 1:56:43.440 --> 1:56:48.840 one of the things that the UH federal prosecutors are 1:56:48.920 --> 1:56:55.080 really have a lot of experience doing is digital forensic investigations, 1:56:56.080 --> 1:57:01.360 and UH in this case, one of the sort of 1:57:01.640 --> 1:57:06.520 critical questions is did he have specific intent to go 1:57:06.600 --> 1:57:11.040 across state lines and engage in violence. And I suspect 1:57:11.280 --> 1:57:14.120 that if you were to access all of his texts 1:57:14.120 --> 1:57:20.240 and metadata and social media posts, that you could probably 1:57:20.360 --> 1:57:24.400 find evidence of that specific intent. And I think that 1:57:24.440 --> 1:57:27.840 the federal government is probably better positioned to do that 1:57:28.320 --> 1:57:35.880 than the prosecutors uh in Kenosha, and they decided not to, right, so, 1:57:36.480 --> 1:57:41.880 you know, and that is exactly the kind of investigation 1:57:41.920 --> 1:57:45.120 that they mounted against Daniel Baker, who justs a the 1:57:45.240 --> 1:57:48.120 yoga teacher in Tallahassee, who just got three and a 1:57:48.200 --> 1:57:54.000 half years for posting vague, sort of incoherent, mutually contradictory, 1:57:55.280 --> 1:58:00.040 kind of not at all frightening. Yeah, it's not I 1:58:00.040 --> 1:58:05.200 wouldn't be threats, but I hesitate to to that. You know, 1:58:05.280 --> 1:58:08.280 he posted some stuff on social media and and now 1:58:08.320 --> 1:58:13.720 he's going to do. Yeah, my attitude on the nature 1:58:13.720 --> 1:58:16.600 of what he posts that like, if prior to his prosecution, 1:58:16.800 --> 1:58:18.720 you had brought that post, but to me, I said, well, 1:58:18.720 --> 1:58:22.040 probably not a great idea to post. But also literally 1:58:22.120 --> 1:58:25.240 every week a right winger in the Portland area posts 1:58:25.280 --> 1:58:29.120 something significantly more actual. Right now, Chandler pappas currently being 1:58:29.200 --> 1:58:32.120 charged with assaulting six police officers in the state capital 1:58:32.160 --> 1:58:35.760 and Salem just announced that he's doing armed training as 1:58:35.800 --> 1:58:41.520 a convicted felon outside of Portland's uh later this November. Um, 1:58:41.640 --> 1:58:44.800 which if he's if he touches a firearm, he should 1:58:44.840 --> 1:58:46.760 go away, Like based on the letter of the law, 1:58:46.840 --> 1:58:48.760 he should go to prison for years. Like that's the 1:58:48.800 --> 1:58:51.400 way the law is written. Nothing's going to happen to him. 1:58:51.400 --> 1:58:52.960 He's going to get to train people with guns and 1:58:52.960 --> 1:58:55.640 continue to carry guns, and it's it's fine for him. 1:58:56.040 --> 1:59:02.920 Um anyway, whatever, I'm sorry. I guess your your listeners 1:59:02.960 --> 1:59:09.400 can't see that. I have my head. Um, yeah, I mean, look, 1:59:09.400 --> 1:59:14.160 what Daniel Baker did was certainly ill advised, if it 1:59:14.200 --> 1:59:17.840 would characterize I have clients who have been visited by 1:59:17.880 --> 1:59:20.120 the Secret Service or have been visited by the FBI 1:59:20.360 --> 1:59:23.240 for saying stuff that when they call me and they're like, well, 1:59:23.280 --> 1:59:25.600 I just said this, and I'm like, yeah, I know 1:59:25.680 --> 1:59:28.880 that you're not gonna actually do that, but maybe don't 1:59:29.400 --> 1:59:33.960 you know it's it's not it's ill advised, but it's 1:59:34.000 --> 1:59:37.600 protected by the very First Amendment more or less. And 1:59:38.200 --> 1:59:42.800 you know I've said this before. I don't think the 1:59:43.040 --> 1:59:50.120 solution to two um being surveilled on social media is 1:59:50.160 --> 1:59:53.040 self censorship. I think it is courage, but I also 1:59:53.080 --> 1:59:55.960 think that discretion is the better part of ball or 1:59:56.080 --> 2:00:01.840 so yes, pick your battles and maybe, yeah, understand that 2:00:01.920 --> 2:00:05.640 it's not fair, you know. Yeah, and also like what 2:00:05.720 --> 2:00:09.560 do you gain by you know, being bumsteous on the internet. 2:00:10.760 --> 2:00:12.520 It's one of those things where, yeah, if that guy 2:00:12.520 --> 2:00:16.280 had had a high dollar lawyer, Um, if he if 2:00:16.280 --> 2:00:18.680 he'd been a rich person, yeah, maybe he would have 2:00:18.760 --> 2:00:22.400 gotten away with it. Um, who knows, but like he 2:00:22.680 --> 2:00:24.840 it's it's he certainly would have gotten No. I can 2:00:24.840 --> 2:00:26.440 certainly say he would have gotten away with it if 2:00:26.440 --> 2:00:28.280 he'd been a right winger, because a bunch of them 2:00:28.320 --> 2:00:33.160 do every single day. Um. I can't make any speculation 2:00:33.200 --> 2:00:36.200 about that particular case, but I can say that the 2:00:36.240 --> 2:00:39.640 people who are being surveilled intensely and targeted for that 2:00:39.720 --> 2:00:43.240 kind of repression are not the people on the right. Um. 2:00:43.280 --> 2:00:45.600 The people on the right are able to make those 2:00:45.680 --> 2:00:49.240 kinds of statements and not be particularly taken seriously even 2:00:49.280 --> 2:00:52.280 when they should be. And people on the left are 2:00:52.280 --> 2:00:57.200 presumed to be you know, Antifa super soldiers. Um. So 2:00:57.520 --> 2:01:02.560 you know, I think the decision not to assert federal 2:01:02.600 --> 2:01:06.640 jurisdiction in the written House case is interesting. It is 2:01:06.800 --> 2:01:12.000 a noteworthy, really curious about what was going on there. UM, 2:01:12.040 --> 2:01:14.640 and it has had a sort of cascade of effects, 2:01:16.640 --> 2:01:21.520 including UM. I doubt that the forensic digital investigation was 2:01:22.680 --> 2:01:24.280 as good as it would have been had it been 2:01:24.280 --> 2:01:28.560 federal UH. And I doubt that the I mean, he's 2:01:28.600 --> 2:01:31.840 facing multiple charges, but I don't think that he would 2:01:31.880 --> 2:01:34.560 have been as likely to go to trial had he 2:01:34.640 --> 2:01:38.360 been federally charged. UM. So again, I don't you know, 2:01:39.040 --> 2:01:43.720 this is not an argument for more federal prosecution. But 2:01:43.760 --> 2:01:47.040 like I think the breathless outrage that we're seeing in 2:01:47.560 --> 2:01:52.720 you know these headlines UM, where people are correctly identifying 2:01:52.760 --> 2:01:56.560 the hypocrisy of the criminal legal system. UM. I think 2:01:56.600 --> 2:02:00.200 it's sort of an exercise in point missing UM. You know, 2:02:00.280 --> 2:02:05.720 this prosecution UM, like many of the prosecutions that we see, 2:02:05.880 --> 2:02:09.960 or the prosecutions that don't happen at all, UM, that 2:02:10.000 --> 2:02:14.560 involve members of the dominant class or people who uphold 2:02:15.120 --> 2:02:20.880 the values of the dominant classes. UM, is sort of 2:02:20.920 --> 2:02:25.480 proof a concept that it's possible to effectively allocate the 2:02:25.520 --> 2:02:29.760 burden of proof to the prosecution. It's possible not to 2:02:29.880 --> 2:02:34.080 go super hard on people and punish them for exercising 2:02:34.080 --> 2:02:39.320 their trial, right. Um. Right, I mean it's it's possible 2:02:40.520 --> 2:02:47.760 two treat all people accused of offenses in this way. UM, 2:02:47.880 --> 2:02:51.720 and I would much rather. I mean, obviously, my ultimate 2:02:51.760 --> 2:02:55.680 goal is to uh dismantle the entire system, you know. 2:02:55.840 --> 2:03:00.560 But but in the meantime, I don't think what we 2:03:00.600 --> 2:03:03.040 need is more vicious prosecution of the right. I think 2:03:03.120 --> 2:03:09.120 we need consistent and commensurate prosecution or lack of prosecution. 2:03:09.720 --> 2:03:14.839 We need to you know, Uh, I think that seeing 2:03:14.880 --> 2:03:17.720 the way that the right is treated should be evidence 2:03:18.040 --> 2:03:23.880 for an argument for the possibility of, um treating all 2:03:23.960 --> 2:03:29.120 people with more leniency rather than you know, intense the 2:03:29.120 --> 2:03:33.440 intense federal repression that we are facing and have been facing, 2:03:34.080 --> 2:03:41.600 you know since the Palmer rates. Um. So yeah, yeah, 2:03:41.240 --> 2:03:46.160 ah um. Well, that uh is the stuff I wanted 2:03:46.200 --> 2:03:51.920 to ask about. Is there anything else? Um? I mean sure, 2:03:52.160 --> 2:03:58.200 I deitely go off on liberals somewhere, please, UM. I 2:03:58.200 --> 2:04:01.720 mean Garrison is a huge and of liberals. He's got 2:04:01.760 --> 2:04:05.280 actually a full back tack two of Barack Obama and 2:04:05.320 --> 2:04:08.920 Bill Clinton. But they're they're in the volleyball scene from 2:04:08.960 --> 2:04:11.840 top Gun. Um. It's an incredible tattoo. He did it 2:04:11.840 --> 2:04:16.000 all freehand on his own back. Amazing. Um, this is 2:04:16.040 --> 2:04:18.480 like the garretson. I hope I don't receive any stones. 2:04:19.480 --> 2:04:22.640 I hope I don't get any awful fan art. Now, someone, 2:04:22.800 --> 2:04:26.080 someone do it? Come on, come on, photoshop Garrison's head 2:04:26.200 --> 2:04:30.600 onto onto Roger Stone's back and the photoshop Nixon's head 2:04:30.600 --> 2:04:33.000 out and the volleyball scene from Top Gun with Bill 2:04:33.040 --> 2:04:36.520 Clinton and Barack Obama. Do it? Do it? Someone's kind 2:04:36.520 --> 2:04:40.000 of do it is definitely going to do it. This 2:04:40.160 --> 2:04:42.120 is you consume me for this, and you'd be right 2:04:42.160 --> 2:04:46.040 to do so. Um. But let's get back to and 2:04:46.040 --> 2:04:51.320 I might represent you the trial of the Trial of 2:04:51.320 --> 2:04:54.880 the century. Yeah, that sounds great. I think this is 2:04:55.120 --> 2:04:58.360 a trend that we see with people who are not 2:04:58.920 --> 2:05:03.720 necessarily focused on looking at the ways that the law 2:05:04.320 --> 2:05:08.480 is always going to be used first and worst against 2:05:08.520 --> 2:05:13.720 the already most vulnerable. Right, So we've seen things like, Um, 2:05:13.760 --> 2:05:18.120 I think there's just this very well documented liberal impulse 2:05:18.320 --> 2:05:21.800 and I think it's very well intentioned, but it's very dangerous, 2:05:22.400 --> 2:05:25.400 um to do things to like assume that the system 2:05:25.520 --> 2:05:29.200 somehow works um or should work, and that it just 2:05:29.280 --> 2:05:33.360 needs to be like followed more closely, and that if 2:05:33.400 --> 2:05:38.120 we push for things like, um, if we like, use 2:05:38.240 --> 2:05:41.640 the law to constrain things that I would agree are 2:05:41.960 --> 2:05:48.120 the most harmful um, excesses of bigotry, right, Um, that 2:05:48.320 --> 2:05:53.880 the law would be a good tool for UM for 2:05:53.960 --> 2:06:00.560 addressing violence and bigotry. The law does not. That is 2:06:00.600 --> 2:06:04.400 not what kind of tool the law is. UM. When 2:06:04.400 --> 2:06:08.320 we push for things like laws regulating political speech, including 2:06:08.480 --> 2:06:13.720 so called hate speech, laws regulating what are referred to 2:06:13.720 --> 2:06:18.040 as hate crimes, laws UM, regulating who can carry a 2:06:18.080 --> 2:06:22.640 firearm and what they might look like. UM, you know, 2:06:22.880 --> 2:06:27.320 pushes for limiting the places or circumstances under which you 2:06:27.360 --> 2:06:33.200 could protest UM or demonstrate, right um, which you know, 2:06:33.240 --> 2:06:37.040 which was done. Um. There there was a real big 2:06:37.400 --> 2:06:43.800 UM push to UH forbid UH anti choice activists from 2:06:43.840 --> 2:06:49.000 protesting outside of UM clinics, right, which I understand, Right, 2:06:49.040 --> 2:06:52.200 But what actually is the upshot of doing that? When 2:06:52.200 --> 2:06:55.240 we see this kind of push to use the law 2:06:55.360 --> 2:06:58.960 as a tool to enforce a particular political agenda, it 2:06:59.120 --> 2:07:03.000 is not you know, it's it's just a very ill 2:07:03.080 --> 2:07:07.640 conceived way to approach this, because the law is never 2:07:07.720 --> 2:07:11.920 going to protect the most vulnerable UM. Well, these structures 2:07:11.920 --> 2:07:15.920 of power that up remain in place, and so you know, 2:07:16.080 --> 2:07:18.440 it's just always going to be leveraged against the people 2:07:18.480 --> 2:07:22.080 who have the least amount of power, and and so 2:07:22.200 --> 2:07:24.120 you know, this this sort of response to the written 2:07:24.160 --> 2:07:28.520 House stuff, to me, is just essentially a recuperation of 2:07:28.680 --> 2:07:31.920 that impulse. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a little like 2:07:31.960 --> 2:07:34.440 that old I think the joke has attributed to Gandhi. 2:07:34.440 --> 2:07:36.240 I don't know if Gandhi actually said it, but like 2:07:36.320 --> 2:07:38.720 he was asked, what do you think of Christian civilization? 2:07:38.800 --> 2:07:40.560 And he said, I think it would be a wonderful idea. 2:07:40.800 --> 2:07:42.400 What do you think of the fair and equal rule 2:07:42.480 --> 2:07:49.880 of law? Sounds nice? Um, but it was neither mars Yeah, 2:07:49.880 --> 2:07:53.400 one of the two. Um yeah, maybe both, maybe both. 2:07:53.960 --> 2:07:56.480 I don't know that we ever saw them together. Um, 2:07:57.280 --> 2:08:01.640 all right, so I don't know. I I it's it's 2:08:01.680 --> 2:08:04.720 obviously it's too early to It's one of those things 2:08:04.800 --> 2:08:06.800 where all of the complaining about the unfairness of the 2:08:06.800 --> 2:08:10.520 trial of written House winds up getting um rammed into 2:08:10.560 --> 2:08:16.080 a legal wall. Metaphorically, Uh may seem silly in content 2:08:16.280 --> 2:08:20.160 or in in retrospect, or he may this may be 2:08:20.280 --> 2:08:22.720 the thing that ignites a new wave of vigilante showing 2:08:22.760 --> 2:08:25.480 up at protests with guns, but it seems to be untouchable. 2:08:25.560 --> 2:08:28.000 Like really, the big fears that they don't set a 2:08:28.040 --> 2:08:31.080 precedent that will allow other people to use quote unquote 2:08:31.120 --> 2:08:34.840 self defense claims and effort just to kill black activists, 2:08:34.880 --> 2:08:37.520 to kill activists on the left, to kill people wearing 2:08:37.520 --> 2:08:40.520 you know, black hoodies and bandanas r. Because that's the 2:08:40.600 --> 2:08:43.880 that's the big fear out of this situation. Because my 2:08:43.880 --> 2:08:46.600 my expectation is that if written House gets off um 2:08:46.920 --> 2:08:50.000 or even just gets very minor, like if it's if 2:08:50.000 --> 2:08:52.720 he's if he's out of jail quickly within about six months, 2:08:52.720 --> 2:08:55.720 he's going to be a millionaire. Um. Absolutely, Yeah, that's 2:08:55.760 --> 2:08:58.560 the way the right wing works. I would gently ask 2:08:58.640 --> 2:09:00.839 you to think about what happened as if he doesn't 2:09:01.200 --> 2:09:07.080 because he's convicted, we are going to see a deepening 2:09:07.280 --> 2:09:11.240 of the oppression that is faced by everyone on the 2:09:11.360 --> 2:09:16.960 left as well. We lose either way. Yeah, is on 2:09:17.040 --> 2:09:22.040 the table. There's no winning, I guess, I think, I 2:09:22.040 --> 2:09:24.120 mean part of it, I guess depends on what he's 2:09:24.160 --> 2:09:29.720 convicted for. Um, because some of the stuff has I 2:09:30.000 --> 2:09:32.200 would it seems to me some of the things he's 2:09:32.240 --> 2:09:36.400 charged with. If convicted, there's more potential negative implications across 2:09:36.440 --> 2:09:40.880 the political aisle than than with others. Um Like if 2:09:41.080 --> 2:09:45.240 if it's ruled murder, I don't know, that feels less worried. 2:09:45.360 --> 2:09:48.160 I mean, I have some concerns about the crossing state 2:09:48.200 --> 2:09:50.480 line stuff. I don't know. I mean, none of it's 2:09:51.280 --> 2:09:53.160 none of it's good. I guess where I am is. 2:09:53.560 --> 2:09:59.280 I remember vividly how much the situation on the ground 2:09:59.520 --> 2:10:02.800 chain after Kenosha, just in in in Portland even I mean, 2:10:02.840 --> 2:10:04.840 Garrison can can back me up with that. They were 2:10:04.840 --> 2:10:07.680 there for that too, Like it was a It was 2:10:07.720 --> 2:10:11.440 a significant shift in the feeling of deadliness, you know, 2:10:11.480 --> 2:10:15.320 whenever there was a right wing left wing confrontation. Um 2:10:15.480 --> 2:10:18.000 and someone someone died a few days later, someone died 2:10:18.040 --> 2:10:22.040 a few days later in in a fucking gunfight. Um 2:10:22.120 --> 2:10:27.160 And I I don't know. I don't know, Moira, Uh, 2:10:27.280 --> 2:10:30.640 I don't know. I don't I don't want Rittenhouse to 2:10:30.680 --> 2:10:33.960 get off Scott free for shooting three people. You're absolutely right, 2:10:34.160 --> 2:10:38.240 there's no there's no winning with the legal system. The 2:10:38.240 --> 2:10:40.400 only way to win is not to play. The only 2:10:40.400 --> 2:10:43.320 way to win is not to play, So form your 2:10:43.320 --> 2:10:50.240 own breakaway civilization Ki and Gandhi Yeah uh and and 2:10:50.560 --> 2:10:55.920 Ron Hubbard take to the Sea. Yes, yeah, always Look, 2:10:56.000 --> 2:10:59.840 I don't I don't think. Um, I'm not looking for 2:11:00.040 --> 2:11:03.480 him to prevail on the self defense and not like, 2:11:03.560 --> 2:11:05.320 none of this is going to make me feel good. 2:11:06.400 --> 2:11:11.280 But I think that whether or not he is punished, 2:11:12.280 --> 2:11:18.320 whether or not he is convicted, there will be negative recussions, 2:11:18.920 --> 2:11:22.520 and all of those negative consequences will redound to the 2:11:22.560 --> 2:11:26.760 detriment of the people who are already facing the most 2:11:26.800 --> 2:11:31.960 intense federal repression. Yeah that is I mean, in fairness, like, 2:11:32.240 --> 2:11:34.880 this is the case of a child who killed two 2:11:34.920 --> 2:11:38.240 people and is now we are determining whether or not 2:11:38.320 --> 2:11:40.760 this child will spend the rest of their life in 2:11:40.800 --> 2:11:44.520 a cell. None of this should make anyone feel good 2:11:44.560 --> 2:11:51.440 no matter what happens. It's a thoroughly bleak story. Yeah. Yeah, 2:11:50.360 --> 2:11:53.280 it's because this kid is never going to have a 2:11:53.400 --> 2:11:55.600 chance to grow up and be like, oh I was 2:11:55.840 --> 2:12:00.240 being like a horrible I don't know the level be 2:12:00.280 --> 2:12:03.000 able to adjust to anything else rather than being this 2:12:03.240 --> 2:12:07.040 person that like culturally has been created right there. They 2:12:07.040 --> 2:12:10.000 are like a cultural thing, They're an item, they're not 2:12:10.040 --> 2:12:13.080 a person anymore, and they'll never be able to escape that. Yeah. 2:12:13.160 --> 2:12:16.000 I was a piece of ship when I was seventeen, 2:12:16.080 --> 2:12:18.000 and if I had had access to an a R 2:12:18.120 --> 2:12:20.960 fifteen and a chance to feel like a hero, I 2:12:21.040 --> 2:12:23.680 might have done something horrific too, And instead you were 2:12:23.720 --> 2:12:29.960 just doing sloppy steaks and it's fine and now it's fine. Um, 2:12:30.040 --> 2:12:33.160 have you watched? I think you should leave? Moira? I'm sorry, 2:12:33.360 --> 2:12:36.000 have you watched? I think you should leave? Moira? No? 2:12:36.800 --> 2:12:42.560 Oh it's good, it's good. Alright, I'll check it out. Um, um, 2:12:42.960 --> 2:12:46.520 I'll take a look. Yeah, I don't know. Um, well, 2:12:47.440 --> 2:12:53.000 thank you, Moira. Uh, this is always appreciated. Um, it's good. 2:12:54.320 --> 2:12:57.920 I don't know. Like, were you we've talked a bit 2:12:57.960 --> 2:13:01.080 about anarchism. How many? How much? How much of like 2:13:01.200 --> 2:13:04.960 your belief about the way the world ought to be 2:13:05.120 --> 2:13:09.040 and is came as a result of getting into the 2:13:09.040 --> 2:13:13.680 guts of the legal system. Do you mean did I 2:13:13.760 --> 2:13:20.640 become more devoted to anarchism and I went to law school. Um? 2:13:20.680 --> 2:13:25.200 I didn't become less devoted to it. But I remember 2:13:25.240 --> 2:13:27.280 when I was going to law school, people kept saying, oh, 2:13:27.280 --> 2:13:29.680 you're going to become really conservative and I was like, 2:13:30.440 --> 2:13:35.240 I don't think that's true. That seems seems fake. Uh. 2:13:35.280 --> 2:13:39.520 And in fact, I remember um being in my criminal 2:13:39.560 --> 2:13:43.160 procedure class and just thinking, how in the world can 2:13:43.200 --> 2:13:49.480 anyone at any law school read Miranda, which is a 2:13:49.480 --> 2:13:57.080 case where someone is, you know, just horrifically abused by 2:13:57.160 --> 2:14:01.480 police in order to extract a state in it. How 2:14:01.520 --> 2:14:05.200 could anybody read this case and not come out of 2:14:05.280 --> 2:14:10.760 law school with a deep contempt for law enforcement. You know, 2:14:10.840 --> 2:14:17.120 I know that it happens. I don't know how always uplifting, Yeah, 2:14:17.280 --> 2:14:21.040 I mean it. It is. It's important to know, you know. 2:14:21.200 --> 2:14:25.560 I when I was when I was younger and poor, uh, 2:14:25.600 --> 2:14:27.840 and dealing with things like taxes, I would often go 2:14:27.920 --> 2:14:31.160 like years without paying them, and I would like ignore 2:14:31.240 --> 2:14:34.080 debts and bills until like like my student loans, until 2:14:34.120 --> 2:14:36.320 it became like a serious problem because I didn't want 2:14:36.320 --> 2:14:37.720 to look at it. I didn't even want to like 2:14:38.320 --> 2:14:40.920 look at the scale of the issue and grapple with it. 2:14:40.960 --> 2:14:42.920 I just wanted to run away from it. And when 2:14:42.960 --> 2:14:47.760 I actually like sat down and figured out my situation 2:14:47.840 --> 2:14:51.560 and like really came to understand like what what I 2:14:51.600 --> 2:14:53.600 needed to do in order to deal with those problems 2:14:53.600 --> 2:14:56.080 like it was stressful and it sucked, and it was 2:14:56.280 --> 2:15:00.400 fucking days of work, but getting understanding the scope of 2:15:00.440 --> 2:15:03.720 the problem I'd gotten myself into was a necessary step 2:15:03.760 --> 2:15:07.360 to like fixing the situation. And I think the same 2:15:07.480 --> 2:15:10.800 is true with like this kind of ship. It's not fun, 2:15:11.080 --> 2:15:14.160 nobody who is. I think a reasonable person like wants 2:15:14.200 --> 2:15:18.400 to dig into the US justice system and get into 2:15:18.440 --> 2:15:21.240 the guts of it because it's bleak as hell. But 2:15:21.440 --> 2:15:24.760 you need to because it's it's you can't escape it 2:15:24.880 --> 2:15:27.480 unless you flee the country and live in a place 2:15:27.520 --> 2:15:34.840 with no extradition treaties, UM or international waters. I feel 2:15:34.840 --> 2:15:38.520 like you're talking about a lot of the people you've profiled. Yeah, 2:15:40.240 --> 2:15:46.800 I mean Ecuador does sound nice. I'm sure it's lovely 2:15:46.920 --> 2:15:51.320 this time of year. Um. Yeah, I think you're right. 2:15:51.480 --> 2:15:53.960 You need to be able to have a sort of 2:15:54.000 --> 2:15:58.120 clear eyed assessment so that we can actively identify and 2:15:58.240 --> 2:16:02.960 effectively address the problems. Unfortunately, I think the problems are 2:16:03.040 --> 2:16:09.760 so um all encompassing that I don't know that there's 2:16:11.680 --> 2:16:15.040 I would venture to say that there is not a 2:16:15.080 --> 2:16:21.920 real totalizing solution that doesn't involve total abolition. Yeah, I 2:16:22.160 --> 2:16:25.000 agree with you. But in the meantime, I mean, I 2:16:25.080 --> 2:16:27.680 think there are there are things that we can do 2:16:27.840 --> 2:16:35.680 to to advocate for our clients, or as an individual, 2:16:35.800 --> 2:16:37.840 you can do to protect yourself. And that's why it 2:16:37.879 --> 2:16:40.879 is important to have some sort of working understanding, um, 2:16:40.920 --> 2:16:44.480 because you can keep yourself and the people around you 2:16:44.520 --> 2:16:48.360 at least somewhat safer if you do understand the beast um. 2:16:48.480 --> 2:16:51.960 Even though your goal is to is to destroy it. Uh, 2:16:52.000 --> 2:16:54.720 And that's I think the only reasonable goal when you 2:16:54.720 --> 2:16:58.720 really understand it, it's still behooves you to to understand it. 2:16:58.760 --> 2:17:00.400 I mean, it's the same with like it, the same 2:17:00.440 --> 2:17:02.360 with what what Garrison and I do with the fucking 2:17:02.440 --> 2:17:05.039 Nazi spending all this time and weird telegram channels like 2:17:05.080 --> 2:17:07.879 reading what they're trying to understand them, because you do 2:17:08.000 --> 2:17:12.640 need to understand them to effectively combat them. Well, it's 2:17:12.680 --> 2:17:16.840 not for the faint of heart. No, no, yeah, neither 2:17:16.920 --> 2:17:20.520 is what you do. UM. The messages is that we're 2:17:20.520 --> 2:17:24.640 all well adjusted and we're all great for that boat. 2:17:25.320 --> 2:17:32.080 Nobody secondary trauma. There's no secondary trauma in international waters Moire. 2:17:32.160 --> 2:17:35.000 I have that that that my my old friend l R. 2:17:35.200 --> 2:17:38.320 H told me that just you and the open sea 2:17:38.680 --> 2:17:41.440 and a bunch of twenty year old searching for gold 2:17:41.480 --> 2:17:47.600 that I buried in a past life, live in the dream. Yeah, 2:17:48.200 --> 2:17:54.080 he is both fascinating and terrifying. Yeah. UM just just 2:17:54.160 --> 2:17:57.920 like just like our legal system system. And that wraps 2:17:58.000 --> 2:18:03.440 up this episode that brings us around. UM, anything you 2:18:03.440 --> 2:18:06.240 want to plug any any place, maybe our listeners could 2:18:06.280 --> 2:18:11.400 could send donations that would help somebody who's themselves against 2:18:11.400 --> 2:18:14.640 a wall at the moment. Would certainly suggest that people 2:18:14.640 --> 2:18:18.600 look into whatever bail funds are local to them. There's 2:18:18.640 --> 2:18:21.160 one I know in New York called COVID Bailout NYC. 2:18:22.000 --> 2:18:26.039 That's um doing incredible work right now to get people 2:18:26.040 --> 2:18:31.200 off Rikers Island, which is having a humanitarian crisis of 2:18:31.920 --> 2:18:36.800 just unbelievable scope. UM. It sounds to me like the 2:18:36.800 --> 2:18:39.680 conditions on Rikers right now are at least as bad 2:18:39.720 --> 2:18:45.400 as the conditions that led to the Attica uprising. UM. 2:18:45.480 --> 2:18:49.480 So I would always, always UM direct people to give 2:18:49.480 --> 2:18:52.720 money to local bail funds. I also want to plug 2:18:52.920 --> 2:18:57.960 the National Lawyers Guild UH Anti Federal Repression or Federal 2:18:58.000 --> 2:19:02.520 Defense hotline, which is too one to six seven nine 2:19:02.720 --> 2:19:06.400 to eight one one two one to six seven nine 2:19:06.400 --> 2:19:09.240 to eight one one if you call that number, or 2:19:09.440 --> 2:19:12.600 you can call that number if you are having unwanted 2:19:12.600 --> 2:19:15.960 contact with federal agents, and you can be advised by 2:19:16.000 --> 2:19:21.199 an attorney who is me about your rights and responsibilities 2:19:21.320 --> 2:19:23.959 with respect to federal agents, and I will try to 2:19:24.800 --> 2:19:28.240 connect you with appropriate resources in your area. UM. This 2:19:28.320 --> 2:19:30.400 is not the hotline to call if you've been injured 2:19:30.400 --> 2:19:33.039 by a police officer. UM. This is the hotline to 2:19:33.200 --> 2:19:38.279 call if you have been visited by the FBI. UM, 2:19:38.440 --> 2:19:42.600 don't talk to cops. If you are contacted by law enforcement, 2:19:42.720 --> 2:19:45.200 say I am represented by counsel. Please leave your name 2:19:45.200 --> 2:19:48.480 and number and my lawyer will call you. UH. And 2:19:48.560 --> 2:19:50.920 remember that you cannot talk your way out of an arrest, 2:19:51.000 --> 2:19:55.520 but you can talk your way into a conviction. All 2:19:55.560 --> 2:19:58.920 great points, all great things to be aware of. UM. 2:19:58.920 --> 2:20:01.400 Speaking of great things to be aware of. Be aware 2:20:01.600 --> 2:20:04.279 that we'll be back tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, 2:20:04.360 --> 2:20:06.520 in which case we'll be back next week. From now 2:20:06.640 --> 2:20:09.760 until the heat death of the universe. Thank you so much, Laura, 2:20:10.280 --> 2:20:20.080 You're so welcome. Adoption of teens from foster care is 2:20:20.080 --> 2:20:22.440 a topic not enough people know about, and we're here 2:20:22.480 --> 2:20:24.959 to change that. I'm April Dinnuity, host of the new 2:20:25.040 --> 2:20:29.400 podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode 2:20:29.440 --> 2:20:32.720 brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the 2:20:32.760 --> 2:20:36.240 families that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt 2:20:36.320 --> 2:20:40.199 us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption, 2:20:40.280 --> 2:20:43.080 presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the U. 2:20:43.160 --> 2:20:45.800 S Department of Health, the Human Services Administration for Children 2:20:45.800 --> 2:20:49.160 and Families, and the ACT Council. Make sure to check 2:20:49.160 --> 2:20:51.760 out Drink Champs, your number one music podcast on the 2:20:51.800 --> 2:20:54.560 Black Effect Podcast Network, host n O r E and 2:20:54.640 --> 2:20:56.640 d J E f N sat down with artists and 2:20:56.800 --> 2:21:02.320 icon ya, which Vulture called one significant interviews. I literally 2:21:02.360 --> 2:21:04.640 had to go like Danos and I don't want to 2:21:04.640 --> 2:21:06.600 have to be the villain. But when I went and 2:21:06.640 --> 2:21:10.680 did the Donda thing, they returned and everybody had to 2:21:10.680 --> 2:21:13.840 sit back and watch the real leader. Check out drink 2:21:13.920 --> 2:21:17.160 Champ's conversation with Yea and many more legendary artists each 2:21:17.200 --> 2:21:20.240 and every Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 2:21:20.360 --> 2:21:24.440 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 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And today we're 2:22:11.000 --> 2:22:13.680 gonna I'm Christopher Wong, by the way, and today we're 2:22:13.680 --> 2:22:19.199 gonna be talking about Bosnia, a place where things went 2:22:19.280 --> 2:22:23.720 about as bad as they possibly can, and about how 2:22:23.840 --> 2:22:29.720 they're heading in very scary directions now. And with us 2:22:29.720 --> 2:22:33.360 to talk about this is Arnessa Kustra. Arnessa is a 2:22:33.360 --> 2:22:38.880 genocide survivor and a academic expert on genocides in general. Arnessa, 2:22:39.440 --> 2:22:43.840 how how are you doing? You know, I'm doing okay. 2:22:43.959 --> 2:22:48.879 I think all things considered, you know, being sort of 2:22:48.920 --> 2:22:54.879 bombarded on a daily basis with you know, possible threats, 2:22:55.400 --> 2:22:58.640 um and talks about you know, a new conflict war 2:22:58.840 --> 2:23:01.560 brewing in the Balkan. This is the thing. Not an 2:23:01.560 --> 2:23:07.600 easy thing to convent, definitely not. Yeah, but other than that, 2:23:08.080 --> 2:23:12.800 I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. I'm glad, I'm glad. 2:23:12.800 --> 2:23:15.320 I'm glad you could be here with me today. Because 2:23:15.840 --> 2:23:19.280 the Balkans extremely complicated place, which I guess his story 2:23:19.320 --> 2:23:21.920 of both places. But yeah, and so I guess that 2:23:21.920 --> 2:23:25.240 that's that's where I wanted to go with my first question, 2:23:25.520 --> 2:23:30.959 because reading about what's happening now, my first instinct was 2:23:31.520 --> 2:23:34.080 go back to the day and accords. But I'm actually 2:23:34.120 --> 2:23:36.800 not sure that that's that that's that's that's even the 2:23:36.800 --> 2:23:39.000 best place to start. And so I wanted I wanted to, 2:23:40.080 --> 2:23:42.840 I guess ask you if so, okay, so if if, 2:23:42.879 --> 2:23:45.720 if you're coming into looking at the Balkans for the 2:23:45.760 --> 2:23:49.039 first time and you're trying to understand what's going on, now, 2:23:49.520 --> 2:23:51.160 where do you think it is the best place to 2:23:51.280 --> 2:23:57.560 start on it? Because I think you know the best. Yeah, 2:23:57.840 --> 2:24:03.560 we're talking about so much history, honestly, but the thing is, 2:24:03.800 --> 2:24:07.760 let's you know, let's start with the death of Tito 2:24:08.200 --> 2:24:11.720 that's always a good place, I think, because that's really 2:24:11.800 --> 2:24:16.200 when things started to kind of shift in the Balkans 2:24:16.240 --> 2:24:20.200 and the former you know socialist udo Slavia was really 2:24:20.840 --> 2:24:27.240 once Tito died and his place became you know empty 2:24:27.280 --> 2:24:31.600 as this sort of unifying factor of all the various 2:24:31.600 --> 2:24:36.240 ethnicities and nationalities within Yugoslavia. You know, once he was gone, 2:24:36.320 --> 2:24:39.920 that sort of left this vacuum that needed to be filled. 2:24:39.920 --> 2:24:45.480 And unfortunately, instead of being filled by another socialist you know, 2:24:45.640 --> 2:24:50.640 pro equality, pro unity leader, it was filled with a 2:24:50.879 --> 2:24:58.680 nationalist um, which is kind of where we still are unfortunately. Um. 2:24:58.760 --> 2:25:03.080 You know, it started obviously with with little things I think, 2:25:03.160 --> 2:25:09.280 with little sort of conversations and and little subtle I 2:25:09.320 --> 2:25:14.200 guess you know, Ethno nationalist rhetorics, and it just kind 2:25:14.240 --> 2:25:18.840 of like grew and spiraled from there, and obviously, you know, 2:25:18.959 --> 2:25:23.120 that sort of thing led to Miloshevich and Kosovo giving 2:25:23.240 --> 2:25:29.879 his infamous speech, which kind of really gave that full 2:25:29.959 --> 2:25:35.679 fledged stamp on. Okay, yes, this is a ultra nationalists, 2:25:35.800 --> 2:25:39.920 you know, ethno nationalist president that we now have, UM, 2:25:40.000 --> 2:25:45.160 who's threatening war across the other ethnicities. What do we 2:25:45.200 --> 2:25:49.000 do next? Um? And at that point you know, that's 2:25:49.000 --> 2:25:52.680 when you sort of see the other countries start to secede, 2:25:52.920 --> 2:25:56.879 you know, Slovania and Croatia they're attacked by Serbia and 2:25:56.879 --> 2:26:02.920 then obviously eventually it goes down to Bosnia. Um and yeah, 2:26:03.000 --> 2:26:05.440 I mean it starts with the ethno nationalism as it 2:26:05.520 --> 2:26:10.960 always does. I think, um, you know, I don't think 2:26:10.959 --> 2:26:16.560 we're anything special in terms of having conflict with our neighbors. 2:26:16.800 --> 2:26:21.160 Look at France and England or in our or America 2:26:21.200 --> 2:26:24.680 and Mexico or anyone. Really it's just, you know, I 2:26:24.680 --> 2:26:27.520 think people make it sound as if we're special or 2:26:27.680 --> 2:26:30.520 we have these ancient hatreds, but you know that's not 2:26:30.600 --> 2:26:33.400 really true. It all comes down to the freaking politics 2:26:33.480 --> 2:26:38.400 and the leaders. And unfortunately, you know, Miloshevitch was removed, 2:26:38.959 --> 2:26:48.120 but is policy is um beliefs continue to kind of 2:26:48.160 --> 2:26:52.280 stick around, you know, I think, uh, you know, people 2:26:53.280 --> 2:26:57.200 think of people like Miloshevich and adavankata Ji, who were 2:26:57.560 --> 2:27:01.960 you know, genocidal war criminals, as a thing of the past. 2:27:02.120 --> 2:27:05.080 But really you look at you know, the Serbian president 2:27:07.040 --> 2:27:11.959 Um or the Repubska president Middle Thought, and there are 2:27:12.040 --> 2:27:17.800 really just the continuation of katach and relationship wch Um. 2:27:17.879 --> 2:27:23.360 So nothing you know, has fundamentally changed since Tito died, 2:27:23.400 --> 2:27:27.240 except you know, we got some new agreements, we got 2:27:27.240 --> 2:27:31.320 some new territories, some new ethnic lients drawn up, and 2:27:31.760 --> 2:27:34.959 not a new pretty buildings too. We have those as well, 2:27:35.120 --> 2:27:41.360 but we don't really have that coexistence um, at least 2:27:41.360 --> 2:27:45.000 that on paper, not in politics certainly. I want to 2:27:45.720 --> 2:27:50.959 go back for a second too, I guess the moment 2:27:51.000 --> 2:27:52.879 of Chito dying because it's always been a sort of 2:27:52.879 --> 2:27:57.000 interesting thing looking at it for me because I remember, 2:27:57.000 --> 2:27:59.440 I mean, you know, so from from setting Chinese history 2:27:59.560 --> 2:28:02.959 right there, there's a period where in the seventies were okay, 2:28:03.000 --> 2:28:05.640 like everyone's looking for reform in China, and you know 2:28:05.959 --> 2:28:07.560 what what you would consider like the sort of the 2:28:08.640 --> 2:28:11.280 I guess you could call them the I don't know, 2:28:11.640 --> 2:28:14.640 left and right is complicated in China, but you know, 2:28:14.840 --> 2:28:16.200 like there there are a lot of sort of what 2:28:16.280 --> 2:28:19.240 you would call like the sort of left socialist like 2:28:19.720 --> 2:28:22.160 democratic reformers. Who are you know, I mean people people 2:28:22.160 --> 2:28:24.160 like they're looking at Yugoslavia as a model and they're going, oh, 2:28:24.200 --> 2:28:27.240 we can have like workers participation and we can have 2:28:27.520 --> 2:28:33.800 we can have these democratic enterprises and then that just implodes, 2:28:33.920 --> 2:28:35.720 and and yeah, I wonder if we could talk a 2:28:35.720 --> 2:28:39.240 little bit about more about that, because my my very 2:28:39.280 --> 2:28:42.240 limited understanding of it was like there's an economic crisis 2:28:42.640 --> 2:28:48.640 from the oil shocks, and then once Tito dies, it's 2:28:48.680 --> 2:28:52.440 just like the wheels come off the whole system. I mean, 2:28:52.440 --> 2:28:54.920 that's a really good way of like putting it. Um, 2:28:54.959 --> 2:28:57.879 you know, like life in Yugoslavia, I don't think it 2:28:57.920 --> 2:29:00.840 was like ever perfect, and I definitely don't think it 2:29:00.920 --> 2:29:04.000 was a perfect system. I think you know, me being 2:29:04.080 --> 2:29:07.240 a Bosnian who was born to Vary, I think pro 2:29:07.440 --> 2:29:12.840 Yugoslav parents. Um. I just like many of my you know, 2:29:12.920 --> 2:29:18.200 fellow Yugoslavs or x Yugoslavs habitancyemed to look at Yugoslavia 2:29:18.400 --> 2:29:22.600 with like rose colored lenses. You know. We think about 2:29:22.879 --> 2:29:28.920 the coexistence, the unity, the multi ethnic part, the worker 2:29:29.160 --> 2:29:33.879 owned you know, socialist models, the fact that our parents, um, 2:29:33.920 --> 2:29:36.600 you know, we're able to provide for their families and 2:29:36.800 --> 2:29:41.120 take vacations and travel and um, you know, get together 2:29:41.160 --> 2:29:44.000 and all these sort of wonderful things. But in the background, 2:29:44.080 --> 2:29:47.400 really in the sort of depths of the you know, 2:29:47.520 --> 2:29:55.520 politics and the economic issues were kind of always there. UM. 2:29:55.560 --> 2:29:57.920 You know, the one thing that Tito did was obviously 2:29:58.000 --> 2:30:03.520 he relied unlike I think other socialist leaders of his 2:30:03.640 --> 2:30:07.879 time is you know, he basically worked with anyone, you know, 2:30:08.120 --> 2:30:13.400 the non aligned movement, but also with the West, with Europe, 2:30:13.800 --> 2:30:16.480 you know. So uh, he was a very picky choosy 2:30:16.560 --> 2:30:21.120 I think was you know, the betterment of the country 2:30:21.280 --> 2:30:28.120 by kind of any means necessary. UM. But I think, 2:30:28.800 --> 2:30:33.760 you know, he made mistakes, just like um other leaders do. 2:30:34.000 --> 2:30:38.240 And I think obviously we had, you know, two issues. 2:30:38.320 --> 2:30:42.000 One he was sick, he was dying, um. And and 2:30:42.240 --> 2:30:45.920 too there was an economic crisis happening. Um. And three 2:30:46.040 --> 2:30:52.160 then we had like the economic reforms, which really shifted 2:30:52.480 --> 2:30:55.600 the entire I mean they just they very much shifted 2:30:56.080 --> 2:31:00.480 the the system that the Yugoslav people were very much 2:31:00.600 --> 2:31:03.879 used to. UM. It became more and more prior, you know, 2:31:03.959 --> 2:31:08.400 privatized after his death. UM. And And you know, Miloroshevich 2:31:09.320 --> 2:31:12.440 he was he was a banker, he was a businessman. 2:31:12.560 --> 2:31:17.720 He was he was who he was. UM. And I 2:31:17.800 --> 2:31:21.080 don't think that he ever really pretended to be a socialist, 2:31:21.879 --> 2:31:26.320 which is why I get so upset when American leftists 2:31:26.879 --> 2:31:29.840 call him a socialist or call him an anti imperialist, 2:31:29.879 --> 2:31:33.320 because those aren't even words that you know, he himself 2:31:33.360 --> 2:31:37.240 would have really used to describe himself. I think, but 2:31:39.040 --> 2:31:43.680 but I think, you know, there was just it was 2:31:43.800 --> 2:31:48.040 that sort of thing where there's an economic crisis brewing, 2:31:48.440 --> 2:31:52.760 they have no ways to really fix it. People are broke, 2:31:53.000 --> 2:31:57.680 people are starving. Suddenly the ownership, the worker you know 2:31:57.879 --> 2:32:00.280 owned sort of model is being shifted, it to a 2:32:00.320 --> 2:32:05.199 more privatized model, and people are just not happy. What's 2:32:05.200 --> 2:32:11.200 a good way to distract from that? You know, It's 2:32:11.280 --> 2:32:14.280 just we see it happen everywhere. It's not a new 2:32:15.600 --> 2:32:18.480 it's not like a new, you know tactic. It's a 2:32:18.520 --> 2:32:24.440 tactic that everyone has utilized. Blame it on the other. Um. So, 2:32:24.520 --> 2:32:27.520 Yugoslavia didn't really have you know, immigrants that they could 2:32:27.560 --> 2:32:31.840 blame it on, but they had Muslims. So and they 2:32:31.879 --> 2:32:36.039 had the Kastovo you know, Albanians and the Bossians and 2:32:36.160 --> 2:32:42.600 that was, you know enough, and suddenly the conversation really shifted. 2:32:43.320 --> 2:32:47.360 And obviously I'm simplifying all of this a lot, so 2:32:47.480 --> 2:32:51.440 much more complicated. Um but you know, there there are 2:32:51.480 --> 2:32:55.560 books out there and and that obviously go into a 2:32:55.720 --> 2:32:59.960 great you know level of detail, um into the actual 2:33:00.080 --> 2:33:03.720 sort of break up, so I can give some recommendations later. 2:33:04.240 --> 2:33:08.240 But um, yeah. But I think in in that sort 2:33:08.280 --> 2:33:11.440 of very simplistic kind of sense is there was an 2:33:11.480 --> 2:33:14.360 economic crisis happening. A good way to sort of distract 2:33:14.400 --> 2:33:18.080 that was the use of ethno nationalism, and it just 2:33:18.160 --> 2:33:21.600 kind of spiraled from there. I think, you know what 2:33:21.800 --> 2:33:25.000 Miloshevitch and what people like Miloshevitch always want, it's more 2:33:25.080 --> 2:33:30.720 power for themselves. And so his whole thing wasn't really 2:33:30.760 --> 2:33:36.480 ever about keeping Yugoslavia intact as Yugoslavia. It was keeping 2:33:36.520 --> 2:33:40.800 this vision of a greater Serbia alive. Because the thing is, 2:33:41.160 --> 2:33:46.560 you know, if we had not had a person like Miloshevitch, 2:33:46.600 --> 2:33:49.200 if we just had somebody who was you know, the second, 2:33:49.360 --> 2:33:54.039 you know, maybe more or less worse or better, who cares. 2:33:54.520 --> 2:33:56.600 I think people would have been fine. I think, you know, 2:33:57.240 --> 2:33:59.959 I don't see this like war breaking now. But instead 2:34:00.040 --> 2:34:02.760 we had Miloshevich who was like way more concerned about 2:34:02.800 --> 2:34:07.360 consolidating power, exerting that control. When he realized that he 2:34:07.400 --> 2:34:11.720 could use ethno nationalism to get to his goals, of 2:34:11.760 --> 2:34:13.879 course he was going to use that of course, like 2:34:13.920 --> 2:34:16.400 who wouldn't you know, we see it today with like 2:34:16.840 --> 2:34:20.640 what Trump did. He utilized, you know, Muslims and immigrants 2:34:20.640 --> 2:34:23.840 and refugees and black people, all his scapegoats to distract 2:34:23.879 --> 2:34:26.880 from all the other things that are wrong with him, 2:34:27.040 --> 2:34:31.000 his leadership and the overall country. And Miloshevich did the same. 2:34:31.080 --> 2:34:35.360 He just did what any other politician did. And you know, 2:34:35.480 --> 2:34:39.520 that's the thing I think, you know, in thinking about Bosnia, Croatia, 2:34:39.600 --> 2:34:42.320 Slovenia and all these countries that started to succeed, I 2:34:42.360 --> 2:34:49.320 think if they had felt comfortable with, you know, staying 2:34:49.360 --> 2:34:52.360 in a country that is multi ethnic, at least in 2:34:52.360 --> 2:34:54.120 the case of Bosnian's. I'm not going to speak for 2:34:54.160 --> 2:34:56.280 the Slovanians or Croatians because they have their own, i 2:34:56.320 --> 2:35:04.160 think complicated identity. But with Bosnian, are are saying collectively, 2:35:04.280 --> 2:35:07.440 I think while we're not a monologue, not monolith, but 2:35:07.520 --> 2:35:13.680 collectively was always where are united? We are multi ethnic, 2:35:13.840 --> 2:35:18.240 multi religious, multi cultural, and it's such a big part 2:35:18.360 --> 2:35:23.200 of like our entire history and identity. And so if 2:35:23.240 --> 2:35:31.280 the choices being you know, under served control being secondary citizens, 2:35:31.480 --> 2:35:36.240 not having that equality, not having that multi ethnicity, of 2:35:36.280 --> 2:35:38.240 course we're not going to take that choice. Of course, 2:35:38.240 --> 2:35:40.600 people are gonna want to you know, when when you 2:35:40.680 --> 2:35:43.600 have like that, you know, that boot on your neck 2:35:43.640 --> 2:35:47.000 of saying like we're going to control you, we're gonna 2:35:47.000 --> 2:35:49.720 take your land and we're gonna basically rule over you. 2:35:49.840 --> 2:35:53.120 Nobody wants to deal with that. And you know, unlike 2:35:54.320 --> 2:35:59.119 a lot of the other countries in former Yugoslavia, Bosnia 2:35:59.240 --> 2:36:02.520 really was the most multi ethnic. It had one of 2:36:02.520 --> 2:36:06.760 the highest rates of you know, mixed ethnic marriages and 2:36:06.959 --> 2:36:11.440 multi religious marriages, and that kind of remains true even today. 2:36:12.800 --> 2:36:16.680 So especially in places like sorry Evo, Mostadeluka, you know, 2:36:16.720 --> 2:36:20.160 the bigger cities, it has this very proud history of 2:36:21.240 --> 2:36:25.119 you know, coexistence and multiethnic co existence. So I think 2:36:26.400 --> 2:36:30.480 what happened for so many people was just a huge 2:36:30.480 --> 2:36:34.800 amount of shock. Um, my own family, so many people 2:36:34.800 --> 2:36:38.160 in my own family just did not think it could happen. Now. 2:36:39.080 --> 2:36:44.680 They grew up with this idea of a united you know, 2:36:44.879 --> 2:36:50.960 multi ethnic Yugoslavia, brotherhood and unity. These are our neighbors, 2:36:50.959 --> 2:36:57.080 our friends, our teachers, are lovers, you know whatever. There 2:36:57.120 --> 2:36:59.400 they work with us, they live next to us. Of first, 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:03.080 they're not gonna you know, turn against us. And I 2:37:03.120 --> 2:37:07.000 think even while all the politicians were fearmong rowing, while 2:37:07.200 --> 2:37:09.880 you know, Miloshevitch and Karta Duge were sort of leading 2:37:09.920 --> 2:37:17.640 their campaigns of you know, especially as lamophobic provacad propaganda, um, 2:37:17.680 --> 2:37:20.840 you know, in in newspapers, on the radio, on TV, 2:37:21.000 --> 2:37:24.320 any chance that any speech that they gave, they talked 2:37:24.320 --> 2:37:26.240 about how the Muslims were coming, we were going to 2:37:26.320 --> 2:37:29.480 make their daughters wear her jobs, we were gonna take over. 2:37:29.640 --> 2:37:32.520 We're going to kill them, you know before that's why 2:37:32.560 --> 2:37:34.520 they have to kill us, because they don't call us 2:37:34.560 --> 2:37:36.920 we're going to kill them. It was whole, you know, 2:37:37.760 --> 2:37:42.600 really brilliant propaganda campaign in so many ways that has 2:37:42.640 --> 2:37:46.480 now been replicated in so many other Can Can we 2:37:46.720 --> 2:37:50.119 talk about that specifically for yes? Second, because I think 2:37:50.120 --> 2:37:55.879 there's something interesting in the way that like the way 2:37:55.920 --> 2:37:58.440 that you get people to do with genocide always seems 2:37:58.480 --> 2:38:02.279 to be, like you, it's extremely hard to get someone 2:38:02.360 --> 2:38:05.920 to like just murder their neighbor because they don't like them. 2:38:05.959 --> 2:38:08.800 You have to do this like they're about to exterminate us, 2:38:08.800 --> 2:38:10.720 and that's why we have to like strike first. And 2:38:10.959 --> 2:38:13.800 that Yeah, that that that aspect of it I think 2:38:13.879 --> 2:38:16.840 is is something that I see a lot when when 2:38:16.840 --> 2:38:18.720 I do this, and you know you you have you 2:38:18.760 --> 2:38:23.080 have done more geneside studies. I want to hear. Yeah. 2:38:23.160 --> 2:38:26.680 I mean, here's the thing. UM, it's so funny. I 2:38:26.680 --> 2:38:30.080 gave like an interview UM on this specific topic I 2:38:30.120 --> 2:38:33.240 don't know, like two years ago, and I remember turning 2:38:33.360 --> 2:38:35.680 to the guy who's interviewing me because he was just 2:38:35.760 --> 2:38:40.120 like his look on his face was I just don't understand, 2:38:40.200 --> 2:38:42.600 Like I don't. I can't wrap my mind about how 2:38:42.680 --> 2:38:46.960 people could do that to their friends, neighbors, students, you know, 2:38:47.840 --> 2:38:51.800 people they were sworn to like protect and and people 2:38:51.840 --> 2:38:55.320 they lived with their entire lives. How could they do that? Well, 2:38:55.360 --> 2:38:56.840 you know, I turned to him and I said, yeah, 2:38:56.840 --> 2:39:00.280 I mean, if I told you right now go kill him, 2:39:00.320 --> 2:39:03.400 you know you probably wouldn't. But if I came to 2:39:03.480 --> 2:39:07.680 you day in and day out, and I slowly started 2:39:07.680 --> 2:39:10.959 to kind of whisper in your ear, and I started 2:39:10.959 --> 2:39:14.240 to tell you, you know, he's been really really I 2:39:14.280 --> 2:39:16.680 don't know, he's been saying a lot of stuff about you. 2:39:16.879 --> 2:39:20.600 He's been quite negative or I don't know, you know, 2:39:21.120 --> 2:39:23.039 do you think he's kind of acting weird? I feel 2:39:23.040 --> 2:39:26.080 like he might be planning something. You may be planning 2:39:26.080 --> 2:39:28.080 to take over your house. You may be planning to, 2:39:28.800 --> 2:39:30.720 I don't know, probably attack your sister. I think he's 2:39:30.720 --> 2:39:32.760 gonna kill your sister. I think you might make your 2:39:32.760 --> 2:39:35.680 sister wear her job. So it's these very like slow, 2:39:35.840 --> 2:39:38.439 subtle things. And that's the thing that people don't understand. 2:39:39.000 --> 2:39:45.039 You know. Violence never interrupts, like, never erupts out of nowhere, 2:39:46.000 --> 2:39:50.600 you know it. It's always planned. It bruised, and it bruise, 2:39:50.640 --> 2:39:52.800 and it bruised, and then it explodes. You know. Then 2:39:52.840 --> 2:39:56.160 there's the thing. But it comes slowly. And that's how 2:39:56.200 --> 2:40:00.280 it wasn't he was slofty. It wasn't this sudden. You know. Yes, 2:40:00.320 --> 2:40:04.320 we're brothers and sisters. Forever, Go Tito, go Yugoslavia too. 2:40:04.920 --> 2:40:06.680 You know, Oh, I hate you because you're a Muslim, 2:40:06.720 --> 2:40:08.400 and I hate you because your servant. I hate you 2:40:08.400 --> 2:40:10.640 because you're a proact. No, that was not the case. 2:40:11.120 --> 2:40:14.960 The case was that this was a very slow campaign 2:40:15.080 --> 2:40:19.680 of propaganda that started in the eighties, almost immediately after 2:40:19.720 --> 2:40:24.320 Tito's That's let's say it started very slow, started with 2:40:24.360 --> 2:40:27.800 the you know, with the sort of I think disenfranchisement 2:40:28.000 --> 2:40:32.160 of the coast of all Albanians um and kind of 2:40:32.160 --> 2:40:36.160 the targeting of them um. And again, yes, there was 2:40:36.200 --> 2:40:38.640 this economic component on of it, but the way they 2:40:38.640 --> 2:40:42.520 wanted to kind of sidetrack that was, you know, well, 2:40:42.600 --> 2:40:46.680 you're you're hungry because the coast of Albanians are not, 2:40:47.080 --> 2:40:52.040 you know, and they're taking your jobs again some more, uh, 2:40:52.080 --> 2:40:55.879 you know tactics that we see. Yeah, so it's not 2:40:56.000 --> 2:40:58.160 it's not that much different, but yeah, you know, it 2:40:58.280 --> 2:41:02.600 starts slow and and the Militievitch and the cottage and 2:41:02.640 --> 2:41:06.160 the Maladich kind of campaigning was God, it was brutal. 2:41:06.240 --> 2:41:08.080 I mean, like I always say, it was kind of 2:41:08.160 --> 2:41:13.400 brilliantly executed in that it really got two people so 2:41:13.480 --> 2:41:16.440 much that then again, you know, they turned neighbor against neigbor. 2:41:17.160 --> 2:41:21.280 It was it was subtle in the beginning. It was 2:41:21.320 --> 2:41:24.200 that sort of what are the Muslims up to? Can 2:41:24.280 --> 2:41:26.680 we trust them? Can you trust your neighbor? Can you 2:41:26.680 --> 2:41:30.959 trust the Muslims? You know, talking about islam sization, talking 2:41:31.000 --> 2:41:34.040 about aliyaz Abiga, which is book that he wrote when 2:41:34.080 --> 2:41:37.320 he was like I don't know eighteen or or whatever, like, 2:41:38.240 --> 2:41:41.280 and you know, talking about World War two. This was 2:41:41.320 --> 2:41:44.800 another thing like, like everybody knows that there was a 2:41:44.800 --> 2:41:47.119 period in World War Two where you know, a lot 2:41:47.120 --> 2:41:50.280 of service were killed by the usha UH and by 2:41:50.360 --> 2:41:55.000 the Nazi collaborationists. And I think obviously that's a real 2:41:55.240 --> 2:41:57.959 fear for you know, for a certain group of people 2:41:58.040 --> 2:42:00.480 who went through that. So there is a lot of 2:42:00.520 --> 2:42:02.240 that as well. You know, that's going to happen again, 2:42:02.320 --> 2:42:06.920 That's going to happen again. Meanwhile, there was no grand plan. 2:42:07.120 --> 2:42:11.600 There was never even talks of you know, committing violence 2:42:12.120 --> 2:42:15.400 or even you know, talks of you know, seceding from 2:42:15.440 --> 2:42:21.640 Yugoslavia or anything. It was all it was all set 2:42:21.680 --> 2:42:25.760 in motion by the Serbian leadership, you know. And I 2:42:25.800 --> 2:42:31.160 think that's what people don't understand. The Bousian leadership, while 2:42:31.240 --> 2:42:35.360 not perfect, we're simply reacting to what the Serbian leadership 2:42:35.440 --> 2:42:39.600 was in many ways making them do. And and that's 2:42:39.640 --> 2:42:43.440 kind of where you know, what happens in these situations. 2:42:43.480 --> 2:42:44.880 You know, they kind of push you and push you 2:42:44.920 --> 2:42:48.720 and push you until they're able to get you know, 2:42:49.040 --> 2:42:51.680 some sort of rise out of you, or response out 2:42:51.680 --> 2:42:54.360 of you, or or get you on that sort of 2:42:54.360 --> 2:42:57.520 offensive where you have to defend yourself. You have to 2:42:57.560 --> 2:42:59.560 defend your identity. You have to defend who you are, 2:42:59.640 --> 2:43:03.480 you have to it justify it also in many ways. 2:43:03.959 --> 2:43:08.840 So yeah, the you know, the sort of propaganda campaign. God, 2:43:09.080 --> 2:43:12.840 there was you know obviously the funny things were like 2:43:12.959 --> 2:43:14.720 things like they're going to make you wear the h job, 2:43:14.959 --> 2:43:19.440 but it was also very insiduous because they would target 2:43:20.520 --> 2:43:26.040 like these you know villages where they were like Bosnians 2:43:26.080 --> 2:43:29.440 and Serbs, you know, living together, and they're quite small, 2:43:30.440 --> 2:43:33.480 but they knew that like in the village obviously usually 2:43:33.520 --> 2:43:36.039 have a gun or you know shotgun because of the 2:43:36.080 --> 2:43:39.480 animals or you know, working or whatever. So they were 2:43:39.560 --> 2:43:42.720 like target them specifically with like the you know, the 2:43:42.840 --> 2:43:47.240 radio and instead of like the big cities, like they 2:43:47.280 --> 2:43:49.920 worked up to the big cities, but they really started 2:43:49.959 --> 2:43:53.640 in like specific sort of areas like in eastern Bosnia, 2:43:53.720 --> 2:43:56.560 especially because there was like a lot of um i 2:43:56.640 --> 2:44:00.640 think majority Muslim like villages in that area up that 2:44:00.680 --> 2:44:04.280 would also have like nearby served villages. So yeah, I 2:44:04.280 --> 2:44:06.199 mean there was that there was you know then sort 2:44:06.200 --> 2:44:12.120 of taking over all the radio stations and um kind 2:44:12.160 --> 2:44:14.960 of going full force. They think like in the sort 2:44:15.000 --> 2:44:22.080 of early days of the war, like we're talking April May. 2:44:23.040 --> 2:44:27.680 They you know, they would get people like pretending that 2:44:27.760 --> 2:44:30.720 they were Bosnians, they were actually Serbs, and they would 2:44:30.720 --> 2:44:33.640 like talk about how they went to you know, kill 2:44:33.720 --> 2:44:37.080 all Serbs or something like that. Um. There was also 2:44:37.200 --> 2:44:40.240 when they were like having people in concentration camps where 2:44:40.240 --> 2:44:43.520 they like started kind of putting them in those concentration camps. Initially, 2:44:44.200 --> 2:44:49.720 they they would make the victims into concentration camps. The 2:44:49.840 --> 2:44:54.320 Muslims basically you know, say that, oh, they're just there 2:44:55.720 --> 2:45:00.200 as a refugee and the Serbian army is like protecting um, 2:45:00.360 --> 2:45:03.400 and they're making me feel really welcome and stuff like that. 2:45:03.520 --> 2:45:08.520 So it was right at the beginning between especially eighty 2:45:08.680 --> 2:45:14.800 nine too, like the propaganda was so visible and it 2:45:15.160 --> 2:45:19.160 really escalated, and it was like suddenly everywhere and you 2:45:19.200 --> 2:45:25.480 would hear Carategic and little Worshovitch talk about you know, 2:45:25.560 --> 2:45:29.720 the Muslims and the things that we wanted and you know, 2:45:29.760 --> 2:45:32.600 the things that the goals that we had, which after all, 2:45:32.640 --> 2:45:35.560 we're not you know, nobody was saying it. There wasn't 2:45:35.600 --> 2:45:37.800 like a single person that was saying these things that 2:45:37.879 --> 2:45:41.200 they were attributing to us. But that didn't matter what 2:45:41.280 --> 2:45:44.400 they were just doing was instilling enough fear and enough 2:45:44.480 --> 2:45:48.000 doubt in the population to eventually get them to take 2:45:48.080 --> 2:45:52.640 up arms when the time comes. And unfortunately, that's precisely 2:45:52.680 --> 2:45:55.720 what happened. When the time came. You know, a lot 2:45:55.760 --> 2:45:58.039 of people did take up arms, whether or not they 2:45:58.040 --> 2:46:01.400 wanted to. They had enough of that doubt and fear 2:46:01.640 --> 2:46:04.600 so in their minds over the course of you know, 2:46:04.680 --> 2:46:08.560 several years that they ended up feeling like I have 2:46:08.680 --> 2:46:11.720 to protect myself. And I'm not saying that's the case 2:46:11.760 --> 2:46:15.080 for every certain person. I think some a lot of 2:46:15.240 --> 2:46:19.680 you know, especially in higher leadership pomissions, a lot of 2:46:19.720 --> 2:46:22.800 them were just sociopaths who wanted to kill. And I 2:46:22.879 --> 2:46:27.279 don't think it mattered why or how, because you're always 2:46:27.280 --> 2:46:30.120 going to get those kind of people. But I think 2:46:30.320 --> 2:46:36.120 when we're talking about how how that shift happened so last, 2:46:36.200 --> 2:46:39.800 we have to obviously discuss the propaganda. A huge amount 2:46:39.800 --> 2:46:43.199 of propaganda that I went into, uh, you know, implementing 2:46:43.240 --> 2:46:52.240 it such a tangent that that was really great. Yeah, 2:46:52.320 --> 2:46:54.160 I think, you know, yeah, I mean, I guess, like, 2:46:55.600 --> 2:46:59.480 I think it's incredibly important for everyone to understand the 2:46:59.560 --> 2:47:02.560 propaganda it works. Like if you just say something over 2:47:02.600 --> 2:47:05.520 and over and over again, like it does you know 2:47:05.600 --> 2:47:09.640 of event eventually it pays off, and you know the 2:47:09.760 --> 2:47:15.000 quote unquote payoff here is the genocide. And I guess, yeah, 2:47:15.040 --> 2:47:17.840 I'm not sure how far into detail you want to 2:47:18.240 --> 2:47:22.600 get into this here, but but I think one thing 2:47:22.640 --> 2:47:25.400 I want to kind of focus on because I think 2:47:25.600 --> 2:47:28.880 from from reading what you've been saying about this, that 2:47:30.280 --> 2:47:32.119 this wound up being a big deal with like why 2:47:32.200 --> 2:47:35.880 things are sort of still fucked now, which is that 2:47:36.080 --> 2:47:38.560 like the international response to this. Like I mean, one 2:47:38.560 --> 2:47:40.520 of the things I'm always just like haunted by is 2:47:40.640 --> 2:47:44.760 there's this quote by mid Irand who's the Prome Mr 2:47:44.760 --> 2:47:46.480 of France. He's like this, sup wants to be the socialist. 2:47:46.560 --> 2:47:48.280 He's like the guy that like they finally put in 2:47:48.320 --> 2:47:50.120 power after like all of the stuff in the sixties, 2:47:50.160 --> 2:47:54.440 and he has this lyon about like I'm sorry, I wish, 2:47:54.440 --> 2:47:56.600 I wish I told up the exact quote, but it's 2:47:56.640 --> 2:48:02.080 it's basically like, I I know the quote. Yeah, do 2:48:02.120 --> 2:48:05.080 you want to say exactly I know the quote? Um, 2:48:05.560 --> 2:48:12.439 it's uh, it's what was it a peaceful but necessary 2:48:13.320 --> 2:48:19.200 reconstruction of a Christian europe Um And Bosnia does not belong. 2:48:20.520 --> 2:48:24.960 So I remember that differently. It's really stayed with me 2:48:25.080 --> 2:48:27.320 for such a long time because he said that at 2:48:27.320 --> 2:48:33.080 a time where the Bosnian Muslims were just completely defenseless. Um, 2:48:33.120 --> 2:48:36.039 they were being dragged the way to concentrate to shim camps. 2:48:36.080 --> 2:48:39.920 The massacres were already well underway. We're not talking about stuburdance. 2:48:41.120 --> 2:48:47.320 We're talking about sorry about uh um even stub at 2:48:47.400 --> 2:48:51.080 ninety two. You know, this is all um, the things 2:48:51.080 --> 2:48:54.080 that happened in places like witch quoins running and all 2:48:54.120 --> 2:48:56.879 these like places that you that I think the vast 2:48:56.920 --> 2:48:59.520 majority of people don't really know about any here about, 2:49:00.280 --> 2:49:03.560 like in a lot of my family is from there. 2:49:04.120 --> 2:49:08.560 Within a span of three months, that entire town, the 2:49:08.800 --> 2:49:15.800 entire town which was once almost entirely Bosnia muslim Um, 2:49:16.080 --> 2:49:20.680 was ethnically cleansed, and that was done through forced deportations, 2:49:21.080 --> 2:49:25.240 concentration camps, mass rapes and rape camps of women and 2:49:25.280 --> 2:49:28.040 obviously a lot of murders. You know. So we're talking 2:49:28.080 --> 2:49:32.520 about one small town that took you know, three three months, 2:49:32.560 --> 2:49:36.440 and my family when it comes to that town, on 2:49:36.480 --> 2:49:39.520 both my mother's and my father's side, interestingly enough, has 2:49:39.600 --> 2:49:42.200 like such a long history. My parents fell in love 2:49:42.240 --> 2:49:45.560 there when they were like kids, so you know, they 2:49:45.720 --> 2:49:48.800 you know, my grandmother's house was there, my grandfather's house 2:49:48.879 --> 2:49:53.000 was there, um on like both sides and they, you know, 2:49:53.040 --> 2:49:57.400 so is this beautiful little town where you know, Bosnians 2:49:57.440 --> 2:50:01.440 and Bosniaks and Serbs and Coad lived in Jews Roma 2:50:01.520 --> 2:50:04.920 and you know, my parents talk about the beauty of 2:50:04.959 --> 2:50:07.840 it and this wonderful sort of experience that they had 2:50:07.879 --> 2:50:11.360 when they lived there. My mom is from saraebo Um 2:50:11.440 --> 2:50:14.000 and I saw my i as well obviously, but the 2:50:14.240 --> 2:50:16.200 Kad was like the place that she would go kind 2:50:16.240 --> 2:50:18.080 of like for the weekend, just because of the family 2:50:18.120 --> 2:50:21.960 that we had there. UM so very special. I think 2:50:21.959 --> 2:50:27.520 in her heart my grandpa's heart as well, and you know, 2:50:27.600 --> 2:50:32.320 within it's just like so hard to like fathom that 2:50:32.440 --> 2:50:36.080 within just a few months that talent was completely ethnically 2:50:36.120 --> 2:50:41.080 climes and that the international community knew this and did nothing. 2:50:41.440 --> 2:50:44.600 You know, there is and I believe it's in the 2:50:44.640 --> 2:50:47.520 Clinton tapes as well, but there's this thing about how 2:50:48.120 --> 2:50:51.840 they had provided aerial footage of the massacres that were 2:50:51.840 --> 2:50:55.600 being that were being enacted in places like Pittgal and 2:50:55.760 --> 2:51:01.040 Swannique where oh my god, depare military served forces did 2:51:01.160 --> 2:51:06.959 some horri horrifying acts of like violence and torture against 2:51:06.959 --> 2:51:11.920 the civilians. UM. And they had you know, showed it 2:51:11.959 --> 2:51:14.840 to the Clintons, and they showed it to the French 2:51:14.920 --> 2:51:18.400 and the English, and they did nothing. You know, they 2:51:18.520 --> 2:51:24.360 knew that a genocide was unfolding, UM. And the Dayton 2:51:24.440 --> 2:51:32.240 Peace Agreement wasn't signed until so the international UM community 2:51:32.440 --> 2:51:38.400 I think as just as much of a responsibility in 2:51:38.920 --> 2:51:43.720 the you know, the genocide of the Bosniaks as Serbia does, 2:51:43.800 --> 2:51:46.400 because they sat there and they watched when they had 2:51:46.440 --> 2:51:49.280 all the power to stop it. They always had the 2:51:49.280 --> 2:51:51.120 power to stop it. They had the power to stop 2:51:51.120 --> 2:51:55.320 it before it even before even one person got killed, UM. 2:51:55.480 --> 2:52:00.600 And and two they it's not even that they just watched, 2:52:00.920 --> 2:52:06.039 it's that they purposely left the Muslims defenseless because Serbia 2:52:06.120 --> 2:52:11.480 had all the Yugoslav army, all the weapons, all the 2:52:11.800 --> 2:52:14.080 you know, everything, all the tools that they needed to 2:52:14.120 --> 2:52:16.879 commit Jenna's side, they already had it, and all the 2:52:17.000 --> 2:52:22.760 arsenal everything, UM. And you the was army was like 2:52:22.840 --> 2:52:24.800 the most powerful in the region at the time. And 2:52:24.840 --> 2:52:30.080 I think the fourth third third or fourth most powerful 2:52:30.280 --> 2:52:35.640 in like the Europe Turkey areas, so we you know, 2:52:35.920 --> 2:52:40.720 quite a powerful army. And there was Bosnia which had 2:52:41.000 --> 2:52:45.560 no weapons, no military um. You know, you see these 2:52:45.600 --> 2:52:51.120 pictures of like civilians fighting against you know, tanks and 2:52:52.400 --> 2:52:56.160 mortar shells and snipers, and it's like these you know, 2:52:56.680 --> 2:53:00.120 youths basically and like converse and jeans and like an 2:53:00.200 --> 2:53:05.360 army jacket playing soldier because that's all we had. You know, 2:53:05.400 --> 2:53:09.080 we had the homemade weapons, we had, um, you know, 2:53:09.240 --> 2:53:13.840 how to make your own bomb books kind of thing, 2:53:13.959 --> 2:53:19.440 and trying to basically descend ourselves with anything that we could. Um. 2:53:19.600 --> 2:53:25.760 They specifically did not lift the arms embargo, knowing that 2:53:25.840 --> 2:53:29.320 they were leaving us defenseless. Like they just knew there 2:53:29.400 --> 2:53:32.480 was no way. There's no doubt on everything that we 2:53:32.520 --> 2:53:37.400 have read about the international community response, everything that Clinton 2:53:37.640 --> 2:53:43.959 mackand John mayor Major Major um not mayor Major have 2:53:44.080 --> 2:53:48.440 said you know about it during that period shows us 2:53:48.520 --> 2:53:50.920 that they absolutely knew that we were defenseless, you know. 2:53:51.160 --> 2:53:54.240 And this wasn't you know a lot of people say 2:53:54.360 --> 2:53:57.680 I didn't know about the Boss Angela side, but it 2:53:58.200 --> 2:54:02.440 was discussed. You know. I looked at the archived footage. Um, 2:54:02.480 --> 2:54:04.959 it was talked about it on television, it was brought 2:54:05.040 --> 2:54:08.080 up in parliament and incentive that was people at the 2:54:08.120 --> 2:54:11.879 time who are like, why are we leaving the Bosnians 2:54:11.920 --> 2:54:15.600 defense lives? Why are we you know, not helping them, 2:54:16.320 --> 2:54:18.480 Why are we allowing them to be allowed into slaughter? 2:54:18.640 --> 2:54:20.879 This is genocide blah blah blah. So even as early 2:54:20.879 --> 2:54:24.240 as there was still people who knew about this stuff, 2:54:24.680 --> 2:54:29.200 we're telling the leaders but nothing. Yeah, I think I 2:54:29.240 --> 2:54:31.040 think like that part also, like it's it's not just 2:54:31.080 --> 2:54:34.000 that like they did nothing like they like they did 2:54:34.000 --> 2:54:36.800 worse than doing nothing, like Mitterran's actively cheering it on, 2:54:37.280 --> 2:54:41.080 Like you know, the arms embargo is just like the 2:54:41.160 --> 2:54:45.680 arms embargo if you're applying in arms embargo on a 2:54:45.800 --> 2:54:48.480 conflict where one people one side has tanks and the 2:54:48.520 --> 2:54:52.040 other side has like molotovs, like you are actively supporting 2:54:52.040 --> 2:54:54.280 one of the sides. And I think that like that 2:54:54.440 --> 2:54:58.880 just like is completely lost in how like almost everyone 2:54:59.080 --> 2:55:03.240 seems to talk about the now because there's like you know, 2:55:03.480 --> 2:55:05.840 because because when you sort of get like interventions later, 2:55:06.040 --> 2:55:08.600 like people are like, oh, look, the wester was like 2:55:08.640 --> 2:55:10.920 planning to intervene here, the whole time, and it's like no, 2:55:11.200 --> 2:55:16.400 like they were literally cheering, was cheering. Like it's like, 2:55:17.000 --> 2:55:20.879 it's so frustrating because you know, we you take what 2:55:20.959 --> 2:55:24.320 we know about. And here's the thing. I know that 2:55:24.440 --> 2:55:30.280 Islamophobia escalated after nine eleven, but Islamophobia has existed for 2:55:30.360 --> 2:55:33.720 a very long time. And I think talked to the 2:55:33.760 --> 2:55:37.520 black Muslims of America, they will tell you more, you know, 2:55:37.560 --> 2:55:39.640 better than than I could ever tell you about the 2:55:39.680 --> 2:55:44.120 history of Islamophobia in the United States. So it's Alamophobia 2:55:44.200 --> 2:55:48.240 was always an aspect of life. And in Europe, Islamophobia 2:55:48.360 --> 2:55:51.680 just like anti Semitism. I mean, it is like the 2:55:51.800 --> 2:55:57.400 staple of European cultural cuisine. So to say yeah, it's 2:55:57.440 --> 2:55:59.560 like it's like yeah, it's like there's a there's a 2:55:59.600 --> 2:56:01.160 there's an they have they have like they have like 2:56:01.200 --> 2:56:03.520 the like the the tri force of Europeans, of European 2:56:03.520 --> 2:56:10.400 civilization is anti Semitism, Islamophobia and hating the Roma. Just 2:56:10.480 --> 2:56:14.480 like however the force. And so I think the sort 2:56:14.520 --> 2:56:20.960 of thing about the explicitness of European leadership, especially at 2:56:20.959 --> 2:56:25.920 the time in in you know, effectively ensuring that we 2:56:25.920 --> 2:56:30.600 were killed off because in Muslim country in Europe could 2:56:30.640 --> 2:56:35.000 not exist. And that's the thing that they said, literally 2:56:35.000 --> 2:56:41.280 set a Muslim country in Europe cannot exist. Like the 2:56:41.360 --> 2:56:44.760 fact that that was so open and brazen like kind 2:56:44.800 --> 2:56:47.640 of takes me back, but it really like tells you 2:56:47.879 --> 2:56:53.480 how much Islamophobia informed. I think the international community responds 2:56:53.560 --> 2:56:56.080 on this, and it's so interesting to me now. I 2:56:56.120 --> 2:56:58.680 think I've seen it over the past, I would say, 2:56:58.760 --> 2:57:03.120 especially five years, the sort of leftist genocide and sort 2:57:03.160 --> 2:57:08.200 of leftist anti imperialist kind of defense of Miloshevich and 2:57:08.840 --> 2:57:10.560 oh they were the you know, the Serbs were the 2:57:10.600 --> 2:57:12.960 actual victims blah blah blah and NATO blah blah blah, 2:57:12.959 --> 2:57:16.360 Western intervention. And I'm just like, oh, my god, read 2:57:16.400 --> 2:57:19.720 a book, read an article from that, read their actual quotes. 2:57:20.120 --> 2:57:24.120 There's no way that you can actually convince me that Europe, 2:57:24.720 --> 2:57:28.760 fortress Europe, and the United States of America would do 2:57:28.920 --> 2:57:32.520 anything that would benefit, you know, the Muslims. Was this 2:57:32.600 --> 2:57:34.080 what was one of the things I think was it's 2:57:34.160 --> 2:57:36.920 really interesting to me about the way that the sort 2:57:36.920 --> 2:57:39.200 of like left shandi sides nihilism works, like it always 2:57:39.240 --> 2:57:41.640 seems to be roogins lomophobia, like and I remember started 2:57:41.680 --> 2:57:44.959 seeing this with Bosnia to where they're like, oh, yeah, well, 2:57:45.000 --> 2:57:47.119 it's it's because it's because what's okay, they have two things. 2:57:47.200 --> 2:57:49.360 One it's like, well, the Bossians were Nazis been the 2:57:49.360 --> 2:57:51.680 second one was that, oh well the boss the Bossians 2:57:51.680 --> 2:57:54.280 were like altra hottists. And it's like, it's the exact 2:57:54.280 --> 2:57:56.039 same thing you see with China. And it's like, oh, 2:57:56.160 --> 2:58:00.800 it's because all the weakers are like lafi Jo hottest 2:58:00.800 --> 2:58:05.080 iss c I A. And it's like no, yeah, I 2:58:05.120 --> 2:58:09.720 mean it's it's it's honestly laughable at this point. It 2:58:09.800 --> 2:58:12.400 really is. And it also just you know, obviously I'm 2:58:12.400 --> 2:58:15.640 a leftist. You know, I'm gonna cheer the left on 2:58:15.959 --> 2:58:18.680 to an extent, but that is my red line. The 2:58:18.800 --> 2:58:22.040 genocide analyism really is my red line. And the reason 2:58:22.080 --> 2:58:24.840 it's it's, you know, my red line isn't just because 2:58:24.840 --> 2:58:27.720 I'm a genocide survivor, but because it's like, oh, for 2:58:27.800 --> 2:58:32.400 god's sake, the data, the statistics, the research, the forensic 2:58:32.600 --> 2:58:39.640 the analysis, the specific quotes, videos, articles, uh, you know, 2:58:39.720 --> 2:58:41.960 all of those things exist and are out there, and 2:58:42.000 --> 2:58:44.040 all you have to do is actually do your research 2:58:44.080 --> 2:58:46.040 and you will find out that actually know you're in 2:58:46.080 --> 2:58:48.760 the wrong. And the other thing is what you just 2:58:48.800 --> 2:58:51.480 said about the sort of thing of painting you know, 2:58:51.520 --> 2:58:54.320 the Muslims is like the Nazis and the you know, 2:58:54.440 --> 2:58:58.720 the extremist um. You know. The thing about like the 2:58:58.800 --> 2:59:02.560 Bassian Muslims is like, we don't hide the fact that 2:59:02.600 --> 2:59:07.440 there were people of our community that participated in Nazi crimes. 2:59:07.800 --> 2:59:12.879 There isn't this goal of concealing those crimes, of minimizing 2:59:12.959 --> 2:59:16.600 the crimes or pretending that they were right. Um, there 2:59:16.720 --> 2:59:19.640 is I'm sure a French group of people who defend 2:59:19.680 --> 2:59:22.120 these kinds of people, like there is a French when 2:59:22.120 --> 2:59:26.800 I'm talking about the collective sort of Bosnian um, you know, 2:59:26.920 --> 2:59:30.680 state level response as well as like an individual response 2:59:30.879 --> 2:59:36.000 is that the you know, the Nazi division had like 2:59:36.120 --> 2:59:41.320 seventeen thousand Bosnian soldiers and there's millions of Bosnians in 2:59:41.320 --> 2:59:45.800 the country. The vast majority ended up joining the Partisans 2:59:45.879 --> 2:59:49.160 and stood against the Nazis. And the thing is, you 2:59:49.200 --> 2:59:53.000 can't when it comes to Yugoslavia and World War Two 2:59:53.040 --> 2:59:55.879 and the Holocaust, you can't just say that the Bosnians 2:59:55.879 --> 2:59:58.840 were Nazi leboration is because the thing is, so were 2:59:58.840 --> 3:00:02.120 the Serbians. So are the Serbs, so are the Croats. 3:00:02.720 --> 3:00:06.040 At that time, Let's be honest, who the hell wasn't 3:00:06.160 --> 3:00:09.560 a Nazi collaboration is now it just doesn't excuse it, 3:00:10.160 --> 3:00:13.800 absolutely not. But what it does sort of show is 3:00:13.840 --> 3:00:18.160 that that history, that period um in Yugoslav history is 3:00:18.320 --> 3:00:21.520 really complicated because you know, you had the Gusta sia 3:00:22.280 --> 3:00:25.520 Um and then you had the Chechniques and then there's 3:00:25.520 --> 3:00:27.760 a period where the Chechniks were against us the Sha 3:00:27.959 --> 3:00:30.480 right because like used to show we're killing Serbs and 3:00:30.640 --> 3:00:33.560 Romans and Jews. But then the Chechniques turned around and 3:00:33.760 --> 3:00:36.879 there you know, these Serb nationalists, they start killing the 3:00:36.959 --> 3:00:39.640 Jews and the Roma and then they start working with 3:00:39.640 --> 3:00:42.080 the hand down the Jews in the Roman and then 3:00:42.120 --> 3:00:46.040 they start working with them to stand against the you know, 3:00:46.400 --> 3:00:51.720 the Tito's Partisans Um. Meanwhile, you know Tito's Partisans had 3:00:52.879 --> 3:00:59.760 a multi ethnic coalition like and we're talking about Serbs, Bosnians, Romans, 3:01:00.120 --> 3:01:04.880 use Croats, Albanians, you know, all sorts of people who 3:01:05.000 --> 3:01:11.200 were very like, you know, anti Nazism. So you know, 3:01:11.240 --> 3:01:14.600 we're we're gonna we're gonna win, We're gonna rebuild our 3:01:14.680 --> 3:01:18.720 our country, we're gonna you know, make this beautiful sort 3:01:18.760 --> 3:01:21.680 of you know, multi ethnic kind of state, which they did, 3:01:21.920 --> 3:01:24.880 which is amazing. But yeah, but it is a complicated 3:01:24.920 --> 3:01:27.160 sort of piece of history. So you can't really say, oh, yes, 3:01:27.240 --> 3:01:31.320 they're the Nazi collaborationists because um, at some point or 3:01:31.360 --> 3:01:36.560 not everybody was, and at some point or not everybody was. Also. Yeah, 3:01:36.680 --> 3:01:38.480 it's like like it's when when when you when you 3:01:38.520 --> 3:01:43.560 start getting into like it becomes this like you know, 3:01:43.920 --> 3:01:48.800 it becomes a way of just getting people to I 3:01:48.800 --> 3:01:51.560 don't know how to describe it, like, you know, when 3:01:51.560 --> 3:01:59.120 when when it starts being like this specific ethnic group 3:01:59.240 --> 3:02:02.640 as a whole is responsible for all of these crimes. 3:02:02.640 --> 3:02:05.520 Just like no, they're not like that's that's not that's 3:02:05.520 --> 3:02:08.240 not how this works. Like it's not like like like 3:02:08.320 --> 3:02:10.440 they're like there are like there, Yeah, there's gonna be 3:02:10.440 --> 3:02:12.360 people in the ethnic group who did things that were awful. 3:02:12.400 --> 3:02:15.560 There's also going to be people, especially especially in inaction 3:02:15.600 --> 3:02:18.240 like this, there's there's a lot a lot of probably 3:02:18.240 --> 3:02:22.640 more people who fought them. Yeah. Yeah, that's such an 3:02:22.640 --> 3:02:26.000 interesting statement because I'm going to compare to the Bosnian 3:02:26.120 --> 3:02:31.080 response after the genocide, which has consistently been No, we 3:02:31.160 --> 3:02:34.360 don't believe that every single service bad, and we are 3:02:34.400 --> 3:02:37.240 only talking about those that took place, took part in 3:02:37.280 --> 3:02:41.360 these crimes, and those that concealed them. And that has 3:02:41.440 --> 3:02:45.959 always been the collective and state level response of all Bosans. 3:02:47.240 --> 3:02:49.760 Now you have to think about I have a friend 3:02:50.040 --> 3:02:57.600 who's who, who's nine members of her family were killed 3:02:57.640 --> 3:03:04.800 in Stubberty in July. That's an absorbinate number of people. 3:03:05.480 --> 3:03:09.680 These were women, children, and men and elderly. There was 3:03:09.720 --> 3:03:13.240 no discrimination when it kim comes to her. I've sat 3:03:13.280 --> 3:03:16.760 with her as she's read all the names of her, 3:03:17.160 --> 3:03:20.360 you know, killed family members. That woman, with all the 3:03:20.400 --> 3:03:22.960 pain that she survived with being there as a young 3:03:23.040 --> 3:03:26.120 girl in the midst of genocide, in the midst of 3:03:26.160 --> 3:03:31.840 these her horrifying crimes, has never once publicly or privately 3:03:31.920 --> 3:03:34.040 to me said, yes, old serbs are the same, Yes, 3:03:34.080 --> 3:03:36.000 all of them are war criminals. Yes all of them 3:03:36.040 --> 3:03:39.440 hate us, absolutely not. And the thing is, I think 3:03:39.440 --> 3:03:43.680 about myself as well, Like you know, my earliest childhood 3:03:43.720 --> 3:03:47.000 memories me being shot at by a sniper, knowing my 3:03:47.080 --> 3:03:50.920 father was in a concentration camp, knowing that my grandmother 3:03:51.000 --> 3:03:54.000 was just killed by a bomb, um knowing that, you know, 3:03:54.040 --> 3:03:57.760 my biological dad was dying in a hospital from an attack, 3:03:57.800 --> 3:04:00.400 and my mother could also be killed because she was 3:04:00.400 --> 3:04:02.560 pregnant with my brother at the time. And so these 3:04:02.560 --> 3:04:06.959 are my earliest childhood memories. Um, they're not very happy memories. 3:04:07.400 --> 3:04:10.840 And I know why those things happened, you know, I 3:04:10.920 --> 3:04:12.959 know why I was being shot at by a sniper, 3:04:12.959 --> 3:04:14.680 and it was because I was bossy, and it it 3:04:14.760 --> 3:04:17.320 was because I was Muslin, and because I was seen 3:04:17.320 --> 3:04:19.680 as the enemy, even though I was you know, a 3:04:19.720 --> 3:04:22.840 little kid at you know, six seven years old, um, 3:04:22.879 --> 3:04:25.320 and absolutely not a threat to anyone, and nobody should 3:04:25.320 --> 3:04:28.680 have been shooting at me. They did anyway, Even though 3:04:28.760 --> 3:04:33.279 that happened, I never had that feeling of all serbs 3:04:33.320 --> 3:04:35.360 are awful. All serbs are you know, I'm going to 3:04:35.440 --> 3:04:39.160 paint them all with a brush. But a lot of them, unfortunately, 3:04:39.280 --> 3:04:43.160 especially on the you know, the the ultra nationalists that 3:04:43.200 --> 3:04:46.280 continue to not just the night the Genis night, but 3:04:46.320 --> 3:04:51.360 also glorified and celebrate it. They do paint everyone with 3:04:51.400 --> 3:04:54.720 the same brush, you know. And and the worst thing, 3:04:54.879 --> 3:04:57.360 the funniest thing, is that they paint themselves with the 3:04:57.400 --> 3:05:00.320 same brush. You know, they they think that they to 3:05:00.360 --> 3:05:05.039 speak for every single serve person um, and that's the 3:05:05.080 --> 3:05:09.240 tragic path. Like I'm not, I'm not. I get accused 3:05:09.280 --> 3:05:12.240 of like constantly talking about serves and I'm like, I 3:05:12.320 --> 3:05:15.200 absolutely am not. I'm talking about the nationalists that I 3:05:15.240 --> 3:05:20.520 will call out all the nationalists, whether they're CAUSI Inserpient, Croatian, American, whatever, 3:05:21.000 --> 3:05:24.959 but we're talking about you know, what you're doing to 3:05:25.080 --> 3:05:29.160 me and your response to my criticism of nationalism is 3:05:29.200 --> 3:05:32.480 actually the thing that's ruining your reputation. Yeah, it's it's 3:05:32.520 --> 3:05:34.760 the it's it's deth the nationals, caamp it, it's it's 3:05:34.879 --> 3:05:37.320 you have you have to conflate all of the individual people, 3:05:37.600 --> 3:05:39.280 the ethnic group, and the state. They all they all 3:05:39.280 --> 3:05:40.400 have to be this like you know, this must be 3:05:40.480 --> 3:05:43.360 this organic totality and it's not true. It's just not. 3:05:43.400 --> 3:05:45.480 But that's you know, that's that's that's the sort of 3:05:46.160 --> 3:05:48.920 it's it's the motus apperanda behind their entire ideology, and 3:05:48.920 --> 3:05:52.560 it's what they deploy, you know, it's what they deploy 3:05:52.560 --> 3:05:54.480 when the genocides, is what they deploy when they have 3:05:54.560 --> 3:06:00.800 to sort of like you know, sort of promoted openly 3:06:00.879 --> 3:06:05.200 or less openly afterwards. Yeah, it's like that justification, it's 3:06:05.240 --> 3:06:10.160 how they justify it, I know. And like we all 3:06:10.200 --> 3:06:16.640 know about the ten stages of genocide, but my colleague Um, 3:06:16.760 --> 3:06:25.240 who's brilliant actually has often talked about that denihalism is 3:06:25.280 --> 3:06:29.560 not really the final stage of genocide. It is in 3:06:29.640 --> 3:06:34.640 fact triumphalism, Um, And that's what we're actually seeing in Bosnia. 3:06:34.760 --> 3:06:39.080 You know, we're not I get genocide denialism from American 3:06:39.200 --> 3:06:43.560 leftists and like British leftists who are on a certain spectrum, 3:06:43.640 --> 3:06:52.160 and obviously I don't get genocide denialism from ethno nationalist Serbs. 3:06:52.200 --> 3:06:56.839 What I get from them actually is very openly celebrating 3:06:57.000 --> 3:07:01.560 and threatening another genocide. They're not in my mentions saying, 3:07:01.560 --> 3:07:05.520 oh there was no genocide, uh, Darren, my mentions saying 3:07:05.680 --> 3:07:08.040 no one shoots a Staba and so, which is basically 3:07:08.040 --> 3:07:11.800 a slogan that says knife fire, Serboniza, and it's like 3:07:12.320 --> 3:07:15.920 basically a threat that another Sherebania will occur. They're in 3:07:16.000 --> 3:07:18.760 my mentions, in my emails and in my d MS 3:07:19.280 --> 3:07:22.039 sending me threats about how they can't wait till I'm 3:07:22.080 --> 3:07:25.160 put in a rape camp again. How they can't wait 3:07:25.240 --> 3:07:28.640 untill they kill my family, until sorry ever gets bombed again, 3:07:28.680 --> 3:07:31.640 and how you know we're they're gonna finish the job. 3:07:31.879 --> 3:07:35.240 How Rat is a hero because he killed all those 3:07:35.640 --> 3:07:39.360 you know people in Serbonizza and sorry able to be sugared. Um. 3:07:39.560 --> 3:07:41.920 Kata Juch is a hero because he's the same Inlshi, 3:07:41.959 --> 3:07:44.880 which is a hero because he believes in a greater Serbia. 3:07:45.400 --> 3:07:49.720 These people don't hide it, um, And that's the thing. 3:07:49.840 --> 3:07:54.160 So it's it's very like just today, you know, first 3:07:54.200 --> 3:07:56.480 thing in the morning, I opened my Twitter and the 3:07:56.520 --> 3:08:01.880 first thing that I see is a bossy activist arrested 3:08:01.959 --> 3:08:05.720 for protesting the dot com Latch mural which the Serbian 3:08:05.800 --> 3:08:13.080 police were guarding. They were guarding a mural get like 3:08:13.120 --> 3:08:17.080 a mural of a war criminal who committed genocide, who 3:08:17.280 --> 3:08:22.560 who everybody knows committed genocide, a mural glorifying him. They 3:08:22.600 --> 3:08:26.440 were got the police were guarding you know, the mural 3:08:26.959 --> 3:08:31.200 and inflicting damage on innocent civilians who were there too, 3:08:31.560 --> 3:08:34.000 you know, protest against the mural. And so I think 3:08:34.040 --> 3:08:39.040 that really tells you so much the issue in the Balkans. 3:08:39.959 --> 3:08:42.640 This has when it could happen here join us tomorrow 3:08:42.640 --> 3:08:45.320 for part two of this interview, which we discuss the 3:08:45.440 --> 3:08:48.680 dangers of what's currently happening in Bosnia. In the meantime, 3:08:49.320 --> 3:08:52.800 find us on Twitter it Happened Here pod, and you 3:08:52.840 --> 3:08:55.840 can find us on Twitter and Instagram for the rest 3:08:55.879 --> 3:09:07.640 of our shows at cool Zone Media. I'm Colleen with 3:09:08.120 --> 3:09:11.120 Join me the host of Eating Wall Broke podcast while 3:09:11.160 --> 3:09:14.920 I eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers 3:09:15.000 --> 3:09:17.360 and celebrities over a meal they once eight when they 3:09:17.360 --> 3:09:20.120 were broke. Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the 3:09:20.200 --> 3:09:24.879 official Princess of comfin Asia, Kid and Asia. This is 3:09:24.920 --> 3:09:27.800 the professor. We're here on Eating Wall Broken. Today, I'm 3:09:27.800 --> 3:09:30.560 gonna break down my meal that got me through a 3:09:30.680 --> 3:09:33.360 time when I was broken. Listen to Eating Wall Broke 3:09:33.400 --> 3:09:36.240 on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcast or 3:09:36.240 --> 3:09:41.080 wherever you get your podcasts. What grows in the forest trees, 3:09:41.520 --> 3:09:44.879 Sure you know what else grows in the forest. Our imagination, 3:09:45.200 --> 3:09:48.480 our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too, 3:09:48.720 --> 3:09:53.720 because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, 3:09:55.120 --> 3:09:58.600 we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than 3:09:58.640 --> 3:10:02.039 you think. Find a four rest near you and start exploring. 3:10:02.160 --> 3:10:04.720 I discover the fourth dot Org, brought to you by 3:10:04.760 --> 3:10:13.960 the United States Fourth Service and the AD Council. What 3:10:14.080 --> 3:10:17.880 Could It Could Happen? Here a podcast about bad things 3:10:17.920 --> 3:10:20.000 happening and how they can continue to happen if you 3:10:20.000 --> 3:10:24.920 don't stop them. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and today 3:10:24.920 --> 3:10:27.920 we're doing part two of the interview with genocide expert 3:10:27.959 --> 3:10:31.320 Arness Acustra, focusing on the absolutely horrifying things that have 3:10:31.360 --> 3:10:33.640 been happening in Bosnia recently. Is you and if you 3:10:33.680 --> 3:10:36.039 hope you enjoy can can you give an explanation of 3:10:36.080 --> 3:10:39.840 what's happened in the last couple of weeks because it's 3:10:40.760 --> 3:10:44.880 terrifying and I don't think enough people are talking about it. Yeah, 3:10:45.040 --> 3:10:49.800 I mean yeah, So that's where are we now? Uh, 3:10:49.959 --> 3:10:52.720 you know, I'm just going to talk briefly about the 3:10:52.800 --> 3:10:55.600 date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah, the audience 3:10:55.560 --> 3:10:58.040 speech to understand what the dating agreement is, and I 3:10:58.120 --> 3:10:59.680 was going to talk about it earlier, but I went 3:10:59.680 --> 3:11:04.480 off on a tangent, So my apologies. Um, so obviously 3:11:04.800 --> 3:11:08.080 you know where the war is happening, The genocide is happening, 3:11:08.400 --> 3:11:13.600 um Staverns. The worst of the genocide happens, you know 3:11:14.320 --> 3:11:17.120 eight thousand people are killed in just a matter of 3:11:17.680 --> 3:11:22.480 a few weeks, few days really, Um, the international community 3:11:22.520 --> 3:11:26.879 does not act at that time. UM. Towards the end 3:11:26.959 --> 3:11:30.680 of the year, another attack happens, since Sarievo and Marcalis 3:11:30.720 --> 3:11:34.840 civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit. I 3:11:34.840 --> 3:11:39.240 think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and that 3:11:39.240 --> 3:11:43.240 that's kind of when the international community starts to open 3:11:43.280 --> 3:11:47.440 their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not to 3:11:47.560 --> 3:11:50.440 bory with the details of no gagotiation process was absolutely 3:11:50.480 --> 3:11:54.280 ridiculous and every single time to discuss it, it was 3:11:54.400 --> 3:11:58.480 about splitting Bosnia down ethnic lines, and that's ultimately what 3:11:58.600 --> 3:12:03.960 happened with the eight In agreement. Yes, peace quote unquote 3:12:04.280 --> 3:12:09.640 peace was achieved, but the Dayton Agreement mandated so that 3:12:11.280 --> 3:12:15.240 there would be a three member presidency. So instead of 3:12:15.280 --> 3:12:17.640 having one president, we would have a three member presidency. 3:12:17.760 --> 3:12:22.080 It's a rotating presidency. There would be a Croat representative, 3:12:22.400 --> 3:12:27.119 a Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means 3:12:27.120 --> 3:12:30.560 that there's no representatives for anyone who's another whether it's 3:12:30.560 --> 3:12:36.480 the identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian, but not Boshnak like 3:12:36.560 --> 3:12:40.160 they you know, it's just there's no space for the 3:12:40.200 --> 3:12:43.560 other in this constitution with the state in peace agreement. 3:12:43.640 --> 3:12:47.039 But that's for another day. Um. They also split the 3:12:47.040 --> 3:12:50.560 country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides 3:12:50.560 --> 3:12:53.720 and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing 3:12:54.160 --> 3:12:58.760 all over eastern Bosnia up in the north. Um, you know, 3:12:59.120 --> 3:13:03.800 basically the interest national community said, good job, here's your 3:13:03.840 --> 3:13:07.800 own territory that you ethnically cleanse um. So they split 3:13:07.879 --> 3:13:12.760 the country down, you know, these ethnic lines, and uh, 3:13:12.800 --> 3:13:14.640 you know, the war stops. And then now we have 3:13:14.720 --> 3:13:17.240 to sort of contend with this you know, peace agreement 3:13:17.280 --> 3:13:22.840 with the new constitution. We we get this um called 3:13:22.920 --> 3:13:26.880 the OHR Office of the High Representative. The High Representative 3:13:26.959 --> 3:13:30.840 is basically a person who holds the highest power in 3:13:30.920 --> 3:13:35.959 the country. They're not a Bosnian. They're actually kind of um, 3:13:36.000 --> 3:13:41.600 they're put in place there by the international community. So 3:13:41.800 --> 3:13:45.000 the OHR kind of you know, comes and breaks us 3:13:45.080 --> 3:13:48.520 up when we're squabbling over issues. And this has been 3:13:48.600 --> 3:13:53.760 anything from things like the flag, like the new flag 3:13:53.800 --> 3:13:57.440 of Bosnia, the flag of Bosnia that was the flag 3:13:57.480 --> 3:13:59.640 of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because 3:14:00.200 --> 3:14:03.000 the OHR deans that it would be you know, offensive 3:14:03.080 --> 3:14:06.320 to the Serbs or the Croats um and the same 3:14:06.320 --> 3:14:09.520 thing was like the national anthem. So they hold a 3:14:09.560 --> 3:14:17.240 lot of power. Now just recently we switched a chart representative, 3:14:17.320 --> 3:14:20.080 so we have a new high representative. Before it was 3:14:20.160 --> 3:14:25.000 Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know, 3:14:25.520 --> 3:14:30.360 time as the High Representative was to enact a law 3:14:30.520 --> 3:14:35.680 against genocide denihalism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning 3:14:35.680 --> 3:14:39.320 for for years because you know, um, I think in 3:14:39.480 --> 3:14:42.480 your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever 3:14:42.560 --> 3:14:45.200 could you know happen to you, happen to you, where 3:14:45.879 --> 3:14:48.879 you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people 3:14:48.879 --> 3:14:53.560 were killed, Um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know, 3:14:53.840 --> 3:14:58.400 dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People 3:14:58.520 --> 3:15:04.080 want to be be able to you know, know the 3:15:04.120 --> 3:15:07.280 truth and and and and be feel safe with the truth. 3:15:07.360 --> 3:15:10.600 So the genocide denialism law was good. But this is 3:15:10.680 --> 3:15:14.120 kind of when things started to you know, shift a bit, 3:15:14.320 --> 3:15:18.119 because I think Dotta came out. Melanadte, who is currently 3:15:18.160 --> 3:15:22.400 the Serb member of the Presidency who controls the Bublical Subsco, 3:15:22.560 --> 3:15:26.480 which is the entity where that's considered the Serb entity, 3:15:26.680 --> 3:15:30.680 but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um, he came 3:15:30.680 --> 3:15:32.800 out and he said, well, if they passed the genocide 3:15:32.800 --> 3:15:37.120 denialism law, we're going to succede within eight days. And 3:15:37.120 --> 3:15:41.760 obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's the thing, um, 3:15:42.320 --> 3:15:46.199 Milanard Dodeck has been threatening succession for years now. This 3:15:46.240 --> 3:15:52.240 is not anything new. What is new is the fact 3:15:52.520 --> 3:15:58.360 that this time he seems to talk about not just 3:15:58.440 --> 3:16:02.000 talk and threaten about up succeeding, but actually has started 3:16:02.000 --> 3:16:06.320 to kind of drop the papers and not a not 3:16:06.400 --> 3:16:09.840 to legally succeed, which he is not allowed due to 3:16:09.879 --> 3:16:13.320 the date and agreement. Um, but he is. He has 3:16:13.360 --> 3:16:15.440 drought up the papers to start pulling out of all 3:16:15.440 --> 3:16:19.880 the national level. So you know, Bosnia is the country, 3:16:20.200 --> 3:16:24.520 republican subscuise and entity. The Federation is an entity, but 3:16:24.640 --> 3:16:26.960 both of them are accountable to the national sort of 3:16:27.000 --> 3:16:31.120 state level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know, 3:16:31.280 --> 3:16:35.080 been saying I'm gonna republica subscott Deserve. We're leaving, like 3:16:35.120 --> 3:16:39.680 we're we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna 3:16:39.720 --> 3:16:44.400 pull out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're 3:16:44.400 --> 3:16:49.119 gonna have serve only, you know, serve only. Courts, serve only, lawyers, 3:16:49.160 --> 3:16:54.400 serve only, justices, serve only, I don't know, passport, whatever, 3:16:54.600 --> 3:16:59.480 control serve basically anything that was at a national level, 3:16:59.560 --> 3:17:02.560 whether it's like a healthcare institution or like, I don't know, 3:17:02.680 --> 3:17:07.800 procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it 3:17:07.959 --> 3:17:12.320 as like serve only. Obviously, I think the dagger is 3:17:12.720 --> 3:17:15.240 right there. Served only. Where have we heard that before? 3:17:15.320 --> 3:17:18.320 We heard that nineties And the biggest sort of brad 3:17:18.400 --> 3:17:22.080 flag has really been this thing about them forming that 3:17:22.200 --> 3:17:25.720 a public scot army, and they're not even talking about 3:17:25.720 --> 3:17:29.600 forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words 3:17:29.800 --> 3:17:34.200 reforming that Republic of Scott Army. Now, the Republican of 3:17:34.280 --> 3:17:38.720 Scott Army, you know, was led by kaa In. These 3:17:38.800 --> 3:17:42.360 are the same people that put girls as young as 3:17:42.760 --> 3:17:46.279 ten and twelve years old into rape camps, that killed 3:17:46.400 --> 3:17:49.760 babies as old as you know a few months, that 3:17:49.959 --> 3:17:53.800 killed um, you know, elderly women as old as a 3:17:53.879 --> 3:17:56.879 hundred years old. You know, these these were the guys 3:17:56.959 --> 3:18:01.800 that were going village to village, city to city killing, torturing, 3:18:02.560 --> 3:18:04.840 bombing the hell out of Sorry though, these were the 3:18:04.840 --> 3:18:09.200 guys that you know, would throw like three thousand to 3:18:09.280 --> 3:18:14.840 four thousand mortar shells on SORRYO and snipe it. I 3:18:14.879 --> 3:18:17.160 don't even know how many times, like tens of thousand 3:18:17.200 --> 3:18:21.440 times per day. It's just these are the bad guys basically. 3:18:21.800 --> 3:18:25.560 Um So, I think there's an alarm right now going 3:18:25.600 --> 3:18:28.039 in Bosnia. And it is the reason why so many 3:18:28.080 --> 3:18:31.680 of us are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand, 3:18:32.800 --> 3:18:35.160 he has threatened, he has made you know, Don has 3:18:35.200 --> 3:18:40.640 made plenty of rest before. But on the other hand, 3:18:40.920 --> 3:18:45.920 in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved. 3:18:46.040 --> 3:18:49.600 You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has 3:18:49.640 --> 3:18:52.640 scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill 3:18:52.640 --> 3:18:55.959 out otherwise you know, Sorbia doesn't get into the EU. 3:18:56.520 --> 3:19:00.080 You know, there's there's always been some sort of of 3:19:00.200 --> 3:19:03.280 I don't know, influence there, the o h r's influence 3:19:03.280 --> 3:19:09.440 as well. But in recent years the international community has 3:19:09.600 --> 3:19:15.320 not stood by its responsibility to the date agreement. I mean, 3:19:15.360 --> 3:19:20.320 here's the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it 3:19:20.360 --> 3:19:23.200 so that we, the Bosnia's have to abide by it, 3:19:25.120 --> 3:19:27.760 but they also have a responsibility to ensure that it 3:19:27.840 --> 3:19:31.440 is actually being upheld and that they're doing their jobs 3:19:31.480 --> 3:19:34.560 in importance with the international like with the Date and Agreement, 3:19:34.680 --> 3:19:37.119 so you know, the Date and Agreement was very kind 3:19:37.120 --> 3:19:41.640 of specific that it was one a temporary solution and 3:19:41.680 --> 3:19:45.440 to the international community was to work on finding a 3:19:45.520 --> 3:19:50.400 more permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual 3:19:50.520 --> 3:19:53.199 sort of reconciliation and justice and all of these things. 3:19:53.400 --> 3:19:55.480 But they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of 3:19:55.520 --> 3:19:58.560 bousing it to kind of live up on its own, 3:19:58.879 --> 3:20:02.600 um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean, 3:20:02.879 --> 3:20:06.000 the EU is the U s they're doing their typical 3:20:06.040 --> 3:20:11.280 thing of strongly worded open letters UM and Dottic seems 3:20:11.600 --> 3:20:15.400 less afraid than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean, 3:20:15.440 --> 3:20:18.480 he is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalist, 3:20:18.600 --> 3:20:21.560 but right now I feel like he has so much confidence, 3:20:21.600 --> 3:20:24.160 and I think he also knows that like the US 3:20:24.280 --> 3:20:27.520 and the EU have so many bigger problems to worry 3:20:27.720 --> 3:20:31.200 about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out a 3:20:31.200 --> 3:20:34.720 priority so he can play around with it. And then 3:20:34.920 --> 3:20:37.400 we're also you know, seeing like the Secretary of State 3:20:38.600 --> 3:20:43.039 Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after this 3:20:43.200 --> 3:20:46.560 man openly stated on national television that he is reforming 3:20:48.200 --> 3:20:51.160 and they're being very cozy and very friendly and stuff 3:20:51.200 --> 3:20:53.840 like that. And here's the thing. I've never been really 3:20:54.400 --> 3:20:58.160 a big believer on the international community, because, come on, 3:20:58.360 --> 3:21:02.680 like I have him, experience speaks for itself. I've already 3:21:02.840 --> 3:21:09.280 lived lived their help, and I'm like, no, thanks, please 3:21:09.320 --> 3:21:13.120 stay away. But I don't live in that world. I 3:21:13.200 --> 3:21:14.959 live in a world where, you know, I'm from a 3:21:14.959 --> 3:21:19.920 small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders and 3:21:20.000 --> 3:21:24.240 on the international community. So while I would love to say, well, 3:21:24.280 --> 3:21:27.360 fuck the EU, fuck the US, we don't need them, 3:21:27.600 --> 3:21:29.640 the reality is that we do need them. We do 3:21:29.760 --> 3:21:33.800 need them to do their jobs. And because if they don't, 3:21:34.000 --> 3:21:37.000 I am really worried that the situation is going to 3:21:37.040 --> 3:21:43.920 continue to escalate further and further. And this appeasement of Dotty, 3:21:44.200 --> 3:21:48.280 especially in the last several years, has gone on so 3:21:48.360 --> 3:21:52.000 much that at this point I think you have to 3:21:52.120 --> 3:21:57.119 like start to wonder, like, do these does the international community, 3:21:57.240 --> 3:22:00.320 you know, even want peace and stability in Bosnia or 3:22:00.560 --> 3:22:04.280 did they benefit from our constant instability and what is 3:22:04.320 --> 3:22:06.680 their long term plan. But that's kind of where we're 3:22:06.720 --> 3:22:09.760 at right now. I think there there's you know, there's 3:22:09.840 --> 3:22:14.640 the people in in Bosnian politics and activist circles right 3:22:14.640 --> 3:22:17.720 now who are calling on US leadership or calling on 3:22:17.840 --> 3:22:20.320 EU leadership, and there's a lot of oh, no, the 3:22:20.360 --> 3:22:22.879 EU sucks, the US will help us, the U s sucks, 3:22:22.920 --> 3:22:25.560 the EU will help us, Turkey is gonna help us, No, 3:22:25.720 --> 3:22:28.400 Turkey sucks. There's a lot of like disagreement. Um. I 3:22:28.440 --> 3:22:30.800 think the reality is that, oh my god, does it 3:22:30.879 --> 3:22:33.480 suck that we aren't in this position where we have 3:22:33.680 --> 3:22:38.000 to rely on external sources because once again we are 3:22:38.240 --> 3:22:41.480 feeling alone. Once again, we're sort of being back into 3:22:41.480 --> 3:22:44.800 a corner and once again we're being threatened with a 3:22:44.920 --> 3:22:48.000 prospect of, you know, a new war. And I think 3:22:48.080 --> 3:22:52.360 the reality is the minute, the minute that he gives 3:22:52.400 --> 3:22:55.640 that green light for that the Republican scott Army to 3:22:55.720 --> 3:23:01.119 be formed, there will be violence. We've seen what happened before. 3:23:02.360 --> 3:23:05.600 We cannot afford to even have one act of violence. 3:23:05.680 --> 3:23:09.800 We cannot afford to have even one person injured, let 3:23:09.800 --> 3:23:14.600 alone die, Because these people in Bosnia, on all sides 3:23:14.760 --> 3:23:19.120 have suffered so unbelievably much. They are exhausted, they are 3:23:19.160 --> 3:23:22.600 still bearing their loved once twenty six years later, they 3:23:22.640 --> 3:23:25.720 still haven't you know, found that peace. They're worried and 3:23:25.800 --> 3:23:29.840 scared for their future, and they deserves so much more, 3:23:29.879 --> 3:23:33.240 they really really do. So I think, you know, I'm 3:23:33.320 --> 3:23:37.720 I'm hoping and praying that. Um. You know, we obviously 3:23:37.760 --> 3:23:41.279 continue talking about this issue, and we try to pressure 3:23:41.320 --> 3:23:45.040 those people in power to you know, calm the situation down, 3:23:45.240 --> 3:23:49.720 but the reality is that this is going to be 3:23:49.760 --> 3:23:54.640 our future for as long as they never exists, and 3:23:54.760 --> 3:23:59.400 until the Bosnian constitution is completely reformed and dating is 3:23:59.440 --> 3:24:03.640 completely either thrown out or reformed to actually allow for 3:24:04.200 --> 3:24:09.480 a you know code, actual multi ethnic United country that's 3:24:09.520 --> 3:24:14.400 not broken up across ethnic you know aligns, and it's 3:24:14.440 --> 3:24:18.120 not ethnically segregated, we're going to continue being in the situation. 3:24:18.240 --> 3:24:21.400 So yes, for right now, I think, let's talk about 3:24:21.440 --> 3:24:23.640 this and let's kind of pressure those powerful people, but 3:24:23.720 --> 3:24:27.080 really a long term it's time to start thinking about 3:24:27.160 --> 3:24:29.199 ending the date and agreement, and it's time to start 3:24:29.240 --> 3:24:35.160 thinking about actually building that you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural, 3:24:35.320 --> 3:24:40.240 multi religious country that we fought for, you know, you're 3:24:40.280 --> 3:24:42.879 saying like okay, like what what what is you know, 3:24:43.040 --> 3:24:46.200 what what is Europe actually wants out of this? And 3:24:47.520 --> 3:24:49.080 you know, I mean I think it's pretty clear, like okay, 3:24:49.120 --> 3:24:51.800 so you know it, the Day and accords are like okay, 3:24:51.800 --> 3:24:55.039 we're just gonna give all of the ethernnationalists like their 3:24:55.040 --> 3:24:57.120 own fiefdom. Right, It's like, okay, here, here's your award 3:24:57.120 --> 3:25:00.400 for the genocide. You get your like yeah, and I 3:25:00.480 --> 3:25:02.600 think you know, like that's that's that's that's that's a 3:25:02.680 --> 3:25:06.160 very classical you know that that that's what Europeans do. Right, 3:25:06.240 --> 3:25:08.200 It's like, yeah, they come in the sport of the 3:25:08.320 --> 3:25:12.080 nationalists and it's like, you know, they they don't want this, 3:25:12.320 --> 3:25:18.720 like they don't actually want like if a functioning, multi ethnic, 3:25:18.800 --> 3:25:22.440 multiracial society because you know, oh oh the horror weight 3:25:22.520 --> 3:25:25.560 hold on what if other people look at that and go, wait, 3:25:25.600 --> 3:25:27.920 why why do we have Like yeah, I think that 3:25:29.320 --> 3:25:32.000 I don't know. I think you see this both you know, 3:25:32.080 --> 3:25:34.520 back back and what they were originally doing in the nineties, 3:25:34.560 --> 3:25:36.960 and you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey, 3:25:37.000 --> 3:25:41.960 look we're heroes. We uh helped them do the genocide, 3:25:42.000 --> 3:25:45.080 and then kind of sort of did something maybe later 3:25:46.360 --> 3:25:48.920 and I think, like, yeah, I don't know, just the 3:25:48.959 --> 3:25:51.960 possibility of that happening again, the possibility of its just 3:25:52.040 --> 3:25:54.840 being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bosty, 3:25:54.959 --> 3:25:56.760 this this is where we do press tours for like 3:25:56.760 --> 3:25:59.600 why the American Army is good and like fun anyone 3:25:59.640 --> 3:26:04.120 else who actually lives there. Yeah, I mean, like, come on, 3:26:04.360 --> 3:26:07.520 they're America. Like, let's be honest here, Like I'm not 3:26:07.560 --> 3:26:10.560 saying they're all powerful entity, but what I am saying 3:26:10.680 --> 3:26:15.440 is that if they really wanted to, the people who 3:26:15.440 --> 3:26:18.560 are in power would not be in power, right Like, 3:26:19.920 --> 3:26:23.600 but these people, people like Dotty, people like Dragon Schovich, 3:26:23.640 --> 3:26:27.040 who is the Croatian at No nationalist leader who is also, 3:26:27.080 --> 3:26:30.000 by the way, directly involved in this mess. And and 3:26:30.040 --> 3:26:32.400 once again we're seeing that thing of the nineties of 3:26:32.600 --> 3:26:35.520 you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split Bosnia up 3:26:35.560 --> 3:26:39.360 and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um, that's 3:26:39.440 --> 3:26:43.320 you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryman and Looshevitch, 3:26:43.440 --> 3:26:47.600 it's now Chovich and uh, you know Dotty. I talk 3:26:47.640 --> 3:26:49.440 about Dotic a lot more because I think he's a 3:26:49.440 --> 3:26:52.760 more immediate threat, but it's important that we don't forget 3:26:52.840 --> 3:26:56.560 that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat as well. Um. 3:26:56.800 --> 3:26:59.760 And you know, but but I think about it this way, 3:26:59.840 --> 3:27:02.720 like I know for a fact that if these people 3:27:02.879 --> 3:27:07.039 did not benefit the system somehow, they would not actually 3:27:07.040 --> 3:27:09.840 be in power. But they do. They do benefit them 3:27:09.840 --> 3:27:13.720 and I think, you know, in a modain Albright called 3:27:14.520 --> 3:27:19.000 Dot like a breath of fresh air um in you know, 3:27:19.040 --> 3:27:22.720 the nineties when he came to power and then and 3:27:22.760 --> 3:27:26.320 now here we are you know, um got its threatening 3:27:26.360 --> 3:27:30.520 more and threatening succession and talking about serve only you know, 3:27:31.160 --> 3:27:36.440 spaces and serve only armies and it's just it's exhaust thing. 3:27:36.640 --> 3:27:40.199 But yeah, it's it's it's also funny. It is funny 3:27:40.200 --> 3:27:42.960 when you think about it, because the reality is that 3:27:45.200 --> 3:27:47.840 it doesn't it never had to be like this, and 3:27:47.920 --> 3:27:50.920 it doesn't have to feel like this in the future either. 3:27:51.760 --> 3:27:55.000 But unfortunately it will continue to be like this because 3:27:55.040 --> 3:27:59.000 that's just you know, what the powerful want, like what 3:27:59.120 --> 3:28:01.760 those actually will have some power one And that's the 3:28:01.760 --> 3:28:03.600 thing that sucks because when you you know, I feel 3:28:03.600 --> 3:28:07.199 like I'm starting to sound conspirator, but I'm not. Um. 3:28:07.240 --> 3:28:09.360 You know, when you when you think about like Europe 3:28:09.400 --> 3:28:14.640 overall and how they looked at Bosnia. I think for 3:28:14.760 --> 3:28:19.680 the last you know, hundred years um and their policy 3:28:19.720 --> 3:28:23.039 towards Bosnia. It's really difficult for me to kind of 3:28:23.200 --> 3:28:27.320 be filled with any sort of confidence about what their 3:28:27.360 --> 3:28:30.959 plans are. You know. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's 3:28:31.000 --> 3:28:34.520 Europe in the United States, two countries that historically have 3:28:34.600 --> 3:28:37.440 never done anything bad, have never done any genocides, and 3:28:37.440 --> 3:28:44.440 have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 3:28:44.520 --> 3:28:46.320 it's just, you know, they're the good guys. So like 3:28:46.400 --> 3:28:48.800 you said, you know, Bosnia's there are so much is 3:28:48.879 --> 3:28:52.400 like this press store for you know, these politicians to 3:28:52.480 --> 3:28:55.120 come and to talk about why we're such a great 3:28:55.160 --> 3:28:58.120 example of the peace process when we're really we're not, 3:28:58.360 --> 3:29:00.879 you know, And the thing is, don't you know they'll 3:29:00.879 --> 3:29:03.359 come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect, 3:29:03.760 --> 3:29:05.720 it was the best solution at the time, and it's 3:29:05.760 --> 3:29:10.959 like it was not, you know, but but they have 3:29:11.160 --> 3:29:13.880 convinced that themselves that this was like a win for 3:29:14.879 --> 3:29:18.959 intervention and win for the international community. Now, don't get 3:29:19.000 --> 3:29:24.840 me wrong, I alongside everyone I know, is extremely happy 3:29:24.879 --> 3:29:28.520 that the war ended and that the genocide ended, um. 3:29:28.560 --> 3:29:32.119 And I think until you're in that position of growing 3:29:32.200 --> 3:29:35.320 up in the midst of you know, all these bombs 3:29:35.320 --> 3:29:38.920 and murders and tortures all around you, and you know, 3:29:39.000 --> 3:29:41.039 the only style do you ever hear are the sounds 3:29:41.040 --> 3:29:44.520 of bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you, 3:29:44.520 --> 3:29:47.800 you won't really know how it feels when that finally 3:29:47.920 --> 3:29:51.760 stops and when you have some peace, and how difficult 3:29:52.959 --> 3:29:56.440 um it can be to think about obviously any future 3:29:56.480 --> 3:29:59.640 sort of prospects of war um. And I think that's 3:29:59.680 --> 3:30:02.560 that all so is a is a contributing factor to 3:30:02.840 --> 3:30:08.040 the overall instability of Bosingia because for twenty six years now, 3:30:08.400 --> 3:30:12.560 our policy as a people, but as a country as well, 3:30:12.680 --> 3:30:17.080 has been as long as there's no shooting, which is 3:30:17.080 --> 3:30:20.920 not a sound policy because you know, settling for the 3:30:20.920 --> 3:30:23.760 bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths 3:30:23.800 --> 3:30:29.520 are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria, 3:30:29.600 --> 3:30:33.600 to the United States. People are struggling for for jobs, 3:30:33.640 --> 3:30:36.520 people are struggling to find food. You know, all of 3:30:36.520 --> 3:30:40.800 these things, um, on top of the threat of war 3:30:40.920 --> 3:30:44.120 and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a 3:30:44.160 --> 3:30:48.600 sound policy, and I'm just hoping, um, it will change 3:30:48.720 --> 3:30:51.560 eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part, 3:30:51.600 --> 3:30:55.480 which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in 3:30:55.480 --> 3:30:59.119 in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them 3:30:59.160 --> 3:31:01.560 to do the right thing to obviously talk about this. 3:31:01.640 --> 3:31:04.840 But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such 3:31:04.840 --> 3:31:10.160 a long, long, long, long road ahead of us. And um, 3:31:10.200 --> 3:31:14.400 you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So 3:31:14.560 --> 3:31:19.320 I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah, 3:31:19.800 --> 3:31:22.959 so much more to do, I think. I think that's 3:31:22.959 --> 3:31:30.400 a good place to end on with just the realization that, Yeah, 3:31:30.440 --> 3:31:33.560 I mean, if if, if there's no fundamental change in 3:31:33.640 --> 3:31:36.920 the structures and the forces and in the politics that 3:31:37.360 --> 3:31:41.160 created a warth created genocide, like it's going to happen again. Yeah, 3:31:41.520 --> 3:31:44.160 and so you you you have to actually change it. 3:31:44.240 --> 3:31:46.120 You can't just sort of put this band aid on 3:31:46.160 --> 3:31:47.920 it and put it in stasis and just leave all 3:31:47.920 --> 3:31:50.720 the structures intact. You have to now you have to 3:31:50.800 --> 3:31:55.600 knock them over before you can build something else. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, 3:31:56.040 --> 3:31:59.160 unnessa think thank you so much for talking with me. Um, 3:31:59.200 --> 3:32:02.320 where can people find you? And what books do you 3:32:02.320 --> 3:32:04.760 want to read because as as as we've said over 3:32:04.760 --> 3:32:07.000 and over again on this podcast, do not get your 3:32:07.040 --> 3:32:11.039 information from podcast. Actually, read books is the thing you need, 3:32:11.080 --> 3:32:14.640 what you need to do. UM. Yeah, well if you Obviously, 3:32:14.680 --> 3:32:16.600 I know our audience can't see yet, but here's my 3:32:16.680 --> 3:32:22.920 little one of my little selections of books on Bosnia. UM. Obviously, 3:32:22.959 --> 3:32:26.000 people can find me on Twitter. Um, you know, type 3:32:26.080 --> 3:32:28.640 in my name A R N E s A. But 3:32:28.840 --> 3:32:33.440 my at is at ore are are r A F 3:32:33.720 --> 3:32:36.760 s A. Yeah. Twitter is probably the best place. But 3:32:37.600 --> 3:32:39.440 also I have a book out so if people want 3:32:39.440 --> 3:32:42.440 to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM. 3:32:42.520 --> 3:32:45.480 And it is based on real life experiences of my 3:32:45.640 --> 3:32:49.680 family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more 3:32:49.760 --> 3:32:55.200 so on the emotional UM side of things. But if 3:32:55.240 --> 3:32:59.800 you want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective, 3:33:00.080 --> 3:33:04.000 I always recommend UM. And I don't know where it's 3:33:04.000 --> 3:33:09.160 going out, but I always recommend UM Bosnia, Kosova and 3:33:09.720 --> 3:33:17.640 Yugoslavia by Mike Kardadigis UM. It's the Marxist perspective on 3:33:18.080 --> 3:33:24.280 the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf 3:33:25.080 --> 3:33:29.080 on my Twitter of tons of books So if you 3:33:29.120 --> 3:33:32.680 want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans, 3:33:32.840 --> 3:33:36.240 about the history of Bosnia, about the war Jetta side, 3:33:36.280 --> 3:33:38.560 feel free to shoot me a d M. I have 3:33:38.720 --> 3:33:43.160 a handy little guy that I hand out constantly. Two people. Um, 3:33:43.200 --> 3:33:45.120 And there's also a list of books on like my 3:33:45.160 --> 3:33:47.360 website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can 3:33:47.400 --> 3:33:48.760 post it. We can put a link to it in 3:33:48.760 --> 3:33:50.680 the description. I've I've read some stuff on there. It's 3:33:50.760 --> 3:33:55.000 very good. You should read it. Thanks. I pry myself 3:33:55.120 --> 3:34:02.280 on really good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah, 3:34:02.320 --> 3:34:06.840 well Vanessa, thank you again. And yeah, this this has 3:34:06.840 --> 3:34:09.520 when it could happen here? Find us that it could 3:34:09.520 --> 3:34:12.520 happen here pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the 3:34:12.520 --> 3:34:14.800 show is that we do are You can find it 3:34:14.840 --> 3:34:18.680 at the cool Zone on the same places and yeah, 3:34:18.720 --> 3:34:22.680 oh boy, genocide bad hope there's no more work to 3:34:22.760 --> 3:34:38.760 stop them. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes 3:34:38.879 --> 3:34:41.400 every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:34:42.120 --> 3:34:44.520 It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:34:44.760 --> 3:34:47.400 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:34:47.440 --> 3:34:49.560 cool zone media dot com or check us out on 3:34:49.600 --> 3:34:52.120 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:34:52.200 --> 3:34:54.960 listen to podcasts. You can find sources for it could 3:34:54.959 --> 3:34:57.960 happen here. Updated monthly at cool zone media dot com 3:34:58.040 --> 3:35:02.119 slash sources. Thanks for listening. Raffie is the voice of 3:35:02.240 --> 3:35:07.959 some of the happiest songs of our generation, Babyuga? So 3:35:08.240 --> 3:35:11.760 who is the man behind Baby Bluga? Every human being 3:35:12.080 --> 3:35:17.039 wants to feel respected. When we start with young, all 3:35:17.160 --> 3:35:20.600 good things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, 3:35:20.760 --> 3:35:23.760 New Dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast 3:35:23.760 --> 3:35:27.039 from My Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on 3:35:27.080 --> 3:35:30.039 the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 3:35:31.840 --> 3:35:35.640 The art world, it is essentially a money laundering business. 3:35:36.160 --> 3:35:38.760 The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You 3:35:38.800 --> 3:35:42.120 know they don't even know or suspect that their fakes. 3:35:42.600 --> 3:35:46.560 I'm Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, 3:35:46.920 --> 3:35:50.800 greed and forgery in the art world. I just walked 3:35:50.840 --> 3:35:55.440 in and saw this bright red painting presuming to be 3:35:55.480 --> 3:35:59.920 a Rothko. Of course, art forgeries only happen because there's 3:36:00.040 --> 3:36:03.560 money to be made, a lot of money. I'm listening 3:36:03.640 --> 3:36:06.320 to what they're paying for the thing. It was an 3:36:06.320 --> 3:36:11.400 incredible mansive money you knew the painting was fake. UM 3:36:13.360 --> 3:36:17.039 Listen to Art Fraud starting February one on the I 3:36:17.200 --> 3:36:29.080 Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 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