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Speaker 1: On April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and

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Speaker 1: killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray

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Speaker 1: was arrested. Case closed right James Sylvay was a pawn

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Speaker 1: for the official story. Some of the evidence, as far

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Speaker 1: as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This

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Speaker 1: is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now.

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Speaker 1: host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast

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Speaker 1: of s i s new podcast, Sports Illustrated Weekly. Sports

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Speaker 1: Wednesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe. Now, Hey, everybody, Robert

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Speaker 1: Evans here, and I wanted to let you know. This

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Speaker 1: is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week

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Speaker 1: that just happened is here in one convenient and with

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Speaker 1: somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in

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Speaker 1: a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening

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Speaker 1: to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: nothing new here for you, but you can make your

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Speaker 1: own decisions. Welcome to it happens sometimes the podcast where

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Speaker 1: it's happened. Shit, Um, Garrison, Chris, somebody, somebody, somebody picked

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Speaker 1: this up. This is on you. Anybody anybody got help

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Speaker 1: out of this one? Okay, Well, you know what podcasts

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Speaker 1: this is. You've been listening, presumably for months, or this

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Speaker 1: is your first time listening. If so, I've probably lost

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Speaker 1: you already with that Bush League introduction. Jesus christ Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. This is a show about how things

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Speaker 1: fall apart and how to maybe stop them from falling

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Speaker 1: apart as much. And today we're talking to some people

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Speaker 1: who were in kind of the best case scenario situation

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Speaker 1: for having a bunch of authoritarians try to UH dominate

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Speaker 1: your country, by which I mean we're talking to some

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Speaker 1: Chilean activists who who who won? Um, inasmuch as it's

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Speaker 1: it's possible to win in the world. UM, it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty exciting situation. UM happening there. I'm excited to introduce

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Speaker 1: people to like what's been going on. But first I

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Speaker 1: want to introduce our guests for today. UM, y'all wanna

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Speaker 1: you'll wanna say hello. Hello. My name is Jeremiah. I'm

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Speaker 1: from the United States. I've lived in Chile for the

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Speaker 1: last ten years, and I'm Stephanie Ahead, I'm a Chilian

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Speaker 1: and I'm leaving here with with my my husband. And Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nicholas. Um, I'm too, and I have been living

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Speaker 1: here for my whole life. Yeah. So we started a

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Speaker 1: small group called Unitos to do some activism to try

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Speaker 1: to get out the vote for the Plelicito, to try

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Speaker 1: to UH last year to get the constitution approved to

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Speaker 1: be voted on, and and it was successful. So we

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Speaker 1: are proud of the small bit of work that we

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Speaker 1: did to help that happen. And so today the constitution

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Speaker 1: is being written and it's a very exciting time. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I want to let's pull back a little bit

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Speaker 1: because the last time we we talked about UM, Chile

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Speaker 1: on behind the bastards in two thousand nineteen, when UM

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Speaker 1: a protest that started as some I think it's fair

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Speaker 1: to say zoomers protesting a fair increase by like jumping

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Speaker 1: fares at the at the underground the subway, UM was

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Speaker 1: met with police doing police stuff, which was met with

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Speaker 1: people taking to the streets and very significant numbers, which

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Speaker 1: is the thing that by now a lot more people

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Speaker 1: are experienced with. But unlike kind of what happened in

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Speaker 1: my country, you did it. You made him blink, and

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Speaker 1: and that's what the plebiscite is, right, Like the there

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Speaker 1: was an agreement made to give because Chile was still,

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, governed under the same constitution that

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Speaker 1: that Pinochet had had, right UM, and Pinochet famously not

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Speaker 1: a great guy. UM, So I wonder if you might

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Speaker 1: give us kind of an overview of y'all's experience during

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Speaker 1: that time time, from like the start of the protests

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Speaker 1: to oh ship, we might actually get to change things

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Speaker 1: at a pretty fundamental level in our country. UM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it was incredible time about exactly two years ago,

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Speaker 1: so just the eighth of October was just a two

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Speaker 1: year anniversary. And um, as you said, it all started

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Speaker 1: with um literal high schoolers, sixteen year olds who were

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Speaker 1: protesting a thirty paso increase, which is, you know, like

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Speaker 1: increase in the metro. But we of course have one

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Speaker 1: of the most expensive metros in the world and a

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Speaker 1: very low um uh minimum wage here. And so as

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Speaker 1: you said, they went out there and started to jump

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Speaker 1: the turnstiles, but in massive groups, hundreds of them going

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Speaker 1: to the metro together and all jumping um together. And

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Speaker 1: in response, the government ended up closing the metros. And

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Speaker 1: so it was this Friday night, UM, and we were

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Speaker 1: having dinner and uh, suddenly the metros were all closed

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Speaker 1: and everyone had to just walk home from work or

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Speaker 1: dinner or where they were. And that was kind of

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Speaker 1: the beginning of everything. And it was almost like the

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Speaker 1: government brought it on themselves, because suddenly there were thousands

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Speaker 1: of people in the streets just because they had no

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Speaker 1: other way to get home and from there, Uh, they

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Speaker 1: there were protests, and the protests were met with extreme

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Speaker 1: police oppression and water cannons and tear gas and all

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Speaker 1: of that, and UM. Eventually it led to one March,

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Speaker 1: which had over a million people throughout Chile marching and

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Speaker 1: UM a series of marches and protests basically every week

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Speaker 1: for months. UM and finally UH it came down to UH.

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Speaker 1: They announced that there would be this Plebilist site and

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Speaker 1: it was a vote, UM, yes or no to create

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Speaker 1: a new constitution, because yes, Chile is still There were

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Speaker 1: some reforms in the early two thousands to the constitution,

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Speaker 1: but UM still U we live under the constitution written

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Speaker 1: by him Gustman, UM kind of you know, Cha's right

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Speaker 1: hand man, and we happen to live. Nico is our

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Speaker 1: good friend and also our next door neighbor, and we

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Speaker 1: live about four blocks from the Plaza UM formerly Plaza Italia.

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Speaker 1: Now the protesters have deemed it Plaza Dignidad, and so

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Speaker 1: we've been just in the middle of it. And UH

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Speaker 1: for for a couple of months, our our whole neighborhood

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Speaker 1: was like a war zone and UH, just really crazy

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Speaker 1: protests every single day and and tear gas and all

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Speaker 1: of that, and it was it was really intense for

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Speaker 1: a while, and it still is. You know. UM, last Friday, UH,

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Speaker 1: we you know, were met with tear gas and water

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Speaker 1: cannons again. So it's it's it's even though the kind

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Speaker 1: the constitution is being written again and the pledgliscite was

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Speaker 1: a year ago, but the police are still out there

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Speaker 1: being bastards. Yeah. I'm curious what each of you kind

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Speaker 1: of sees as the moment when or if you because

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Speaker 1: maybe I was going too optimistic, right Like I guess

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, do you think that a corner has been turned,

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Speaker 1: and and if so, what was kind of the moment

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Speaker 1: each of you felt that like, oh my god, we

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Speaker 1: might actually this isn't just gonna be like showing up

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Speaker 1: to get the ship kicked out of us. We were

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Speaker 1: going to get somewhat least of what we're fighting for.

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Speaker 1: Wait technic Yeah, I mean I think that like that

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Speaker 1: particular moment was when we finally went to the elections

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Speaker 1: to who you call the referendum for the for this

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Speaker 1: new constitution, and we were kind of skeptic about the

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Speaker 1: percentage of people who approved this new constitution because a

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Speaker 1: few months ago or a few weeks before this referendum,

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Speaker 1: we have like continuing questions polls. We had the polls

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Speaker 1: and they were kind of fifty, so we're kind of

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Speaker 1: skeptic about are we gonna have a new constitution or not?

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Speaker 1: And that the same night, I mean, the process very quick,

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Speaker 1: so after I know, the this thing close at six

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Speaker 1: pm and then you have the results like three hours later.

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Speaker 1: So on the same day we're having the results and

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Speaker 1: it was like eighty against twenties. So it was like

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Speaker 1: kind of shocking. I mean, we I think that nobody

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Speaker 1: was expecting to have this kind of eight percent of

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Speaker 1: the people until they were I want to throw to

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Speaker 1: the being the you know, tech constitution. So it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like, I know, I will say that the best moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's this. There's an American, a deceased American um sociologist

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Speaker 1: who who wrote an essay that I find quite influential

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Speaker 1: called the Shock of Victory, and it's about how activists

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Speaker 1: often failed to take advantage of of their momentum, like

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Speaker 1: because they're kind of surprised at the success early on,

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Speaker 1: and then they don't properly take advantage of what they

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Speaker 1: have when they have it, and and you know, progress

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Speaker 1: gets turned back, which I think we've seen happen in

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Speaker 1: the United States in the wake of of what happened

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Speaker 1: here last summer. Why do you think that that hasn't

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Speaker 1: happened in Chile? What do you think it is that

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Speaker 1: that that enabled UM, you you all to actually keep

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Speaker 1: the pressure on and and take advantage of that that

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Speaker 1: mint in time, which which never I guess that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm impressed with the most, is that you you all

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Speaker 1: did manage to make that momentum work for you rather

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Speaker 1: than kind of letting it pull you off balance. And

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on

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Speaker 1: on how UM. I guess for me, what I think

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Speaker 1: it's lost a lot in the conversation is UM the

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Speaker 1: premier LINEA, so the first line of defense. And so

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Speaker 1: you have UM a bunch of young people, anarchists, you know,

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Speaker 1: just crazy young people who went out there to fight

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Speaker 1: with the cops every single day, and it was really

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Speaker 1: impressive and a lot of times we uh, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like they don't get the credit they deserve

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Speaker 1: because you know, they're the delintements and that you know,

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Speaker 1: we talk a lot about the big marches when there

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Speaker 1: was a million people in the street and and obviously,

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Speaker 1: like Nico said, winning the vote by seventy percent showed

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Speaker 1: that it was something that everyone in Chile wanted. But

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Speaker 1: it never would have happened if it weren't for the

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Speaker 1: this small group of of fighters who were there every

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Speaker 1: single day, facing tear gas and water cannons and police

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Speaker 1: beating them up with you know, throwing rocks and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. So I think that's the main thing. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like once a month or even once a week.

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Speaker 1: It was every single day, and they were there on

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Speaker 1: the front line, and it none of this would be

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Speaker 1: possible without them. That's fascinating to me because obviously things

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Speaker 1: like that, groups like that existed here, like in Portland,

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Speaker 1: went every night for not as long, but for not

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Speaker 1: an insignificant amount of time, and it was those same

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Speaker 1: It was a lot of these kind of young anarchists,

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Speaker 1: front liners who were willing to go toe to toe

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Speaker 1: with the cops every night. But you didn't have you

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Speaker 1: didn't have that kind of larger, more moderate popular lists

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Speaker 1: backing them up. And I guess one of the things

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about is what was kind of the you

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Speaker 1: mentioned you don't think they get the credit they deserve.

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Speaker 1: Was there a broad attitude that like, these people are

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Speaker 1: the ones going face to face with the cops so

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Speaker 1: that those of us, you know, people who are older,

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Speaker 1: people who aren't and it's going to ship people who

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Speaker 1: can't physically take as much abuse can still show up

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Speaker 1: or was it. I'm kind of curious how how those

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Speaker 1: people represented what they were doing and how it how

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Speaker 1: it was seen by most of kind of the more

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Speaker 1: moderate people who still supported change around you, because that

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Speaker 1: that dynamic exists in any mass protest movement, and I'm

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Speaker 1: it worked where you are, and I'm trying to get

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Speaker 1: a handle on maybe how it was different than what

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Speaker 1: I saw in Portland. Uh so now a lot of

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Speaker 1: them are in Yo and um or without one eye,

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Speaker 1: so is uh, it's really terrible because we have all

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Speaker 1: these new beautiful process but we are you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: really completely democracy with liberty with the for this guy

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Speaker 1: or or democracy for all this um person that loose

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Speaker 1: eyes or uh yeah and everyone that was injured. Um so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of protests nowadays. Actually, I think today right

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Speaker 1: now there's a protest going on to free the political

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Speaker 1: prisoners um and uh. But yeah, I mean I think

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Speaker 1: they're even among you know, obviously of the country voted

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Speaker 1: for the new constitution. So there's a lot of different

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Speaker 1: points of view there. But but yeah, there was division

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Speaker 1: even among the left. A lot of people said, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is not the form of this is not the

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Speaker 1: way to protest, and we should not be violent and

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Speaker 1: you know, burning things and um. But but there was

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Speaker 1: a lot I mean, you saw a lot of the

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Speaker 1: opposite where people were were saying, just as you said,

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Speaker 1: like those out there on the front line are the

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Speaker 1: reason that the older people and others can come out

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Speaker 1: and feel safer to protest because the Primary LINEA is

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Speaker 1: kind of taking the brunt of the violence from the police,

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Speaker 1: and that allows the older people and those who are

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Speaker 1: are less confrontational to be out there in protest. So

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Speaker 1: for me, some of some of the most inspiring signs

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Speaker 1: I remember seeing are like folks that are eighty years

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Speaker 1: old and they have signs that say, you know, Gracia

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Speaker 1: sala Primary LINEA. You know, like thank you to the

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Speaker 1: front liners who who are taking that violence so that

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Speaker 1: they are able the others to to protest um in

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Speaker 1: a more peaceful way. That's such a fascinating situation to

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Speaker 1: me that you've got You've got these these more radical

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Speaker 1: frontliners who were, as you say, critical in allowing this,

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Speaker 1: this really groundbreaking change to occur in your society. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, things haven't changed enough that Number one,

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Speaker 1: the cops will beat the ship out of them, I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing are still largely employed, um and and a bunch

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Speaker 1: of them are in jail. Do you have much hope

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Speaker 1: that at the very least there will be something to

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Speaker 1: like get these people out or is it is that

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Speaker 1: maybe a bridge. I don't know, I don't know your

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Speaker 1: country obviously, Well, you know, I'm curious, like, do you

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Speaker 1: feel like there's much hope in pushing for that, because

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Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, those people need to be free. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, most of these guys who are in prison

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Speaker 1: and they have spent like, oh no, like twelve months

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Speaker 1: in prison without any evidence, so only the world of

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Speaker 1: the cops against them. So after I know, like thirteen

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Speaker 1: months for two months, they will finally get released because

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Speaker 1: they have they have no evidence, or they could they

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Speaker 1: you may find that the police they made up all

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Speaker 1: the evidence, so they they finally go out. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: you spend like almost a year in prison, that's yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's clearly like political. I mean you're a political prisoner,

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Speaker 1: like they got They got you in prison with no evidence,

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Speaker 1: without any probit process. They keep you in prison for

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Speaker 1: a year. Um, who's gonna pay for that? I mean

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Speaker 1: you lost a year. Yeah, Like we're talking so far

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Speaker 1: about the sacrifice is made here. What do you think

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Speaker 1: with this new constitution? You and your your your fellow Chileans.

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Speaker 1: What are you gonna get? Like? How what are the

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Speaker 1: changes that are seemed to be most concrete and the

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Speaker 1: ones that you think are most important. I think already

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Speaker 1: it's been groundbreaking. I believe it's the only constitution ever

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Speaker 1: to be written by a plurality of women and and

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Speaker 1: also to have a representation from the indigenous peoples. And

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Speaker 1: so it's already been very um inspiring and groundbreaking. Um.

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Speaker 1: The President of the Constitutional Convention is a very inspiring

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Speaker 1: um Mapuche leader woman. UM. And the good thing is

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Speaker 1: that the right um it represents less than one third

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Speaker 1: of the Constitutional Convention, so they don't have the power

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Speaker 1: to block um anything uh as far as only by

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Speaker 1: the right. So we will see. But they literally just

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Speaker 1: started writing the constitution last week. So yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: still but that's I mean, that's that's a significant Is

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Speaker 1: there a kind of a broad agreement that one of

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Speaker 1: the things that needed to happen here was a redress

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Speaker 1: of grievances between the indigenous people UM and the and

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Speaker 1: the state because it's it sounds like that's a significant

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Speaker 1: chunk of what's what's been already agreed upon. Just but

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Speaker 1: like how this is coming together? Yeah so, uh, well,

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Speaker 1: Nicole probably tell a lot more about this than I could.

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Speaker 1: But Um, there's a big deal with the United with

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Speaker 1: the indigenous people in the South and the government UM

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Speaker 1: basically waging war against the indigenous people. Actually, uh, two

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, Nia the current right wing president UM declared

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Speaker 1: a state of emergency in the South and he just

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Speaker 1: extended it for fifteen more days. So we have the

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Speaker 1: military in the south, um, and they are you know,

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Speaker 1: with the tanks and attaching attacking the the Mapuche and

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Speaker 1: other indigenous people there. And uh so Yeah, a big

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Speaker 1: aspect of Chile right now is the the the fight

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Speaker 1: between and and the oppression of the government against the

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Speaker 1: native people. And and it's a cultural thing too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's really heavy everyone. Most people here in Chile

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Speaker 1: are are mixed, you know, between the the natives and

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Speaker 1: and the white men and everything. And you know the

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Speaker 1: Europeans um, but the Mapuche and the other indigenous groups

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Speaker 1: have really not um received a lot of respect in

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Speaker 1: the last thirty years. And and so yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: big aspect. Yeah, I'll say, like for me, it's very

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Speaker 1: inspiring to have like the pressing of this new constitution

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Speaker 1: to be uh I'm a picture woman. Oh um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I guess that the most important thing, like

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Speaker 1: the thing that this indigenous people want to call is

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Speaker 1: the land. I mean land for them is the most

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Speaker 1: important thing. And that's what the government only for the

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Speaker 1: last three hundred years they have been taken from to them. Um.

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Speaker 1: They are now like trying to claim again their their

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Speaker 1: their space. So I mean let's call that this new

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Speaker 1: constitution will bring them back their land, um, their respect

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Speaker 1: that they deserve. Now there's been a lot of discussion

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Speaker 1: about this new constitution as I think the term used

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Speaker 1: as an ecological constitution um, and it's it's the necessity

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Speaker 1: of it addressing a lot of the climate, not just

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Speaker 1: climate change, but like a lot of the things caused

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Speaker 1: by climate change, like unequal access to water. Um. There's

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Speaker 1: been discussion in the Asio Coasta of of the f

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Speaker 1: I m A and GEO has Has is arguing currently

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Speaker 1: that the Constitution needs to enshrine a human right to

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Speaker 1: water and recognize it as a common good. Um. It's

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Speaker 1: obviously again they're writing it this week, so it's kind

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Speaker 1: of unclear if that's going to happen. Um. But I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering kind of what you what y'all think it's

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Speaker 1: actually because as you've talked about, you know, with the

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Speaker 1: protests ongoing, with the military being deployed in the South,

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Speaker 1: this is not a finished fight. Um, It's just a

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Speaker 1: fight that a lot of progress has been made on.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is reasonable to expect from this

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Speaker 1: new constitution in terms of of of climate change, in

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Speaker 1: terms of ecological justice. I will so I think the

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Speaker 1: right of the of water. H So water is privatized here,

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Speaker 1: so chileans here in Santiago, we have to pay a

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Speaker 1: Spanish company too for our water. Sure. UM. I would say,

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Speaker 1: like the economy in this country is based on like strativism,

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Speaker 1: So you have like the most productive thing is mining,

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Speaker 1: and then you have like the forest three. Um, all

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Speaker 1: these things like they have an enormous impact on the

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Speaker 1: environment and the people. Until I mean the people who

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Speaker 1: live right next to these kind of things, they don't

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Speaker 1: get anything from them. I mean, the poorest places are

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Speaker 1: like right next to the first three, rightness to the mining.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of like we're creating a lot of

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Speaker 1: income from these things, but we're not getting anything from

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Speaker 1: them and all. I mean. Also, it's not like a

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Speaker 1: thing like let's get everything back to the state, I

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Speaker 1: mean to the state, because it's it's more than that.

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Speaker 1: It's just like like, um, ecological equality equity. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not saying we should take all of the private

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Speaker 1: water and give it to the state as much as

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Speaker 1: it's saying everyone who lives here has a has a

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Speaker 1: personal right to enough water to survive. Yeah. So you

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Speaker 1: have rounds where small little towns and they don't have

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Speaker 1: any water to drink because all of their water is

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Speaker 1: to the going to the farm owned by Nestley to make,

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Speaker 1: you know, to grow avocados to sell to Europe and

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Speaker 1: the United States. So um, yeah, it's it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty crazy thing. One of the things that's

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Speaker 1: most interesting to me about your situation is you you

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Speaker 1: are in a place where not entirely similar dissimilar from

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Speaker 1: the United States, you have a police in a military

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Speaker 1: that are heavily dominated by by right wing ideology. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: like the United States is partly responsible for that. In

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Speaker 1: your case, we we funded it for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: Um and uh, and so it's still an ongoing fight.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, clearly the people are unhappy

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Speaker 1: enough with that situation and hold like that they were

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Speaker 1: able to make they were able to force the folks

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Speaker 1: with with guns to um, to recognize that they can't

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Speaker 1: hold on to everything that they wanted to hold onto.

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Speaker 1: And I, I guess, I'm what, how can we do that? Um?

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Speaker 1: I'm very impressed by like, and you know, watching from

390
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Speaker 1: the sidelines, I was just so happy to see this

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Speaker 1: not go where I think we were all scared it

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Speaker 1: might go, you know, in either the direction with like Syria,

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Speaker 1: where it turns into this horrible blood bath or where

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Speaker 1: everything gets crushed you know it. And and I I'm wondering,

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Speaker 1: like why you think on a on a broader scale,

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Speaker 1: what do you think was responsible for those people with

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Speaker 1: access to the guns deciding we can't hold onto this. Like, Yeah,

398
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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm so intensely curious about that because it's

399
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Speaker 1: it's it's important for a lot of people and a

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Speaker 1: lot of other parts of the world. Yeah, I don't know.

401
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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was just the protest and

402
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Speaker 1: the daily protests and and just getting pressure, keeping the

403
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Speaker 1: pressure on. And at some point, you know, it's like, hey,

404
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Speaker 1: this is not good for the economy, you know, like

405
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Speaker 1: so all of the rich people, um, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the ten families that are in control of you know,

407
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: sixty or seventy percent of the wealth of the country. Yeah,

408
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: and they at some point had to recognize that this

409
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Speaker 1: was something that that you know, had reached its boiling

410
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: point and and that they could no longer respond with

411
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Speaker 1: just force because they tried it and it didn't work

412
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Speaker 1: for months and it was just months and months of

413
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Speaker 1: protests and um and uh. And obviously that caused a

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Speaker 1: hit to the economy, and that caused a hit to

415
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Speaker 1: the wallets of of the ultra rich. And so at

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Speaker 1: some point they realized that they had no other move

417
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Speaker 1: to play than to accept it in some way and uh.

418
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Speaker 1: And that's how we got, you know, this new constitution

419
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Speaker 1: that is being written. One thing I was interested about

420
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Speaker 1: is did geography of the protest because I know Chile

421
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Speaker 1: very urban population. And also it was is it like

422
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Speaker 1: it's like a quarter of the population or something lives

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Speaker 1: in Santiago, like in that area. And I'm yeah, so sorry.

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Speaker 1: I just want to note, if I'm not mistaken, there

425
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Speaker 1: were only five. You have kind of communes instead of states,

426
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Speaker 1: is what they're called. Um, like ten voted in favor

427
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Speaker 1: of the referendum and only five voted against it. If

428
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Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, Well, communes are within cities like different

429
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Speaker 1: It's like Burroughs in New York, but we have different

430
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: regions instead of states. And um, and I think they

431
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: all voted. Yeah, there might be like seven voted. But

432
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: what you might be thinking of, um, yeah, Robert, you

433
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: might be thinking of communes in Santiago. Where Santiago is

434
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: very Um. So it's all on the Rio Mapocho, the

435
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: river which goes east to west across the city. And

436
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: basically you have this like very rich part on the

437
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: east and up into the hills and um, and then

438
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: it gets poorer and poorer as you go to the west.

439
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: And um. Yeah. For the vote for the constitution, Um,

440
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: it was everyone voted for the constitution except for these communes,

441
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: these ultra rich in the east. Oh, wow, amazing. Okay.

442
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: Thing something I was curious about this was so when

443
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: when the protests were going on, um, because you know,

444
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: Chile's had like huge protests before, I mean even the

445
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: last decade. What I was interested stid also with this

446
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: time is like, well, hey, what do you think it's

447
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: different about this than say like two thousand eleven wasn't thirteen?

448
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: And then be in terms of like the geographic breakdown

449
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: of where people are and where they're going? Is it

450
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: that you know? So so you have this have this

451
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: classified in the city, but we're we're the working class districts,

452
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: like we're people staying there in the stra structure where

453
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: they like moving from those places like to protest inside

454
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: of the richer urban areas. I would say, like, I mean, yeah,

455
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: we have like many protests in the past, but there

456
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: were more kind of like I don't know, like students protests,

457
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: and then you have like you know, like the university protests.

458
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: But when we have like this protest like that the

459
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: one we have on to Townside nineteen, it's like something

460
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: that unites everyone. I mean, you don't have to be

461
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: a student, you don't have to go to university to protest.

462
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's something that it's affecting everyone. I mean

463
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: the fairs of the Metro, they affect everything, and they

464
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: in equality in the country affects everyone. So UM, I

465
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: mean that I guess that's that's the thing that make

466
00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: this protests of the todasan nineteen unique in this term. Yeah,

467
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: and I think it was actually a problem when all

468
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: the protests were happening. A lot of people were saying,

469
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: we can't keep going to the plaza. You know, the

470
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: cops are just going to wait for us in the plaza,

471
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: and you know it's going to be a ship show,

472
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: and we need to you know, protest all over And

473
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: there were protests across Chile and every single major city. UM,

474
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: but I will say the majority of the protests have

475
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: been um here in the plaza and close to Lamoneta

476
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: where the presidential palace and UM but some of the

477
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: most memoriable protests and and the Coast and Eera Center,

478
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: the tallest building in Latin America, which is a mall

479
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: and a monument to this idea that Pinera has of

480
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: UM the way of Chile being an oasis in South America.

481
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: We're not like other countries where we're like the United States,

482
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: you know, where this capital is some capitalists oasis and exactly. Um.

483
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: But but yeah, so some of the most memorial protests,

484
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: they weren't super common, but we're exactly that where the

485
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: people said, you know what, we're not going to the plaza,

486
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: We're going to Coast Nara Center, or we're going to

487
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: Vita Kara, We're going to where the millionaires live, where

488
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: they work. And um. That those were really powerful. And

489
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: so that's when you started to see like all of

490
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: those banks and malls and just blocks and blocks of

491
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: what the rich folk like to call Sanhattan, you know,

492
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: Santiago Manhattan, the skyscraper part of the city, and it

493
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: was just all boarded up, you know. Um because there

494
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: there were definitely a couple of weeks where the protests

495
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: went that way and and and yeah, it was inspiring.

496
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: What I keep coming back to when I look about

497
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: like why it worked, It wasn't because the front liners

498
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: just kept the pressure up, because the front liners did.

499
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: In a lot of places here, the front liners stayed

500
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: out well after everyone else stopped coming out. It's that

501
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: the population kept up the pressure. Like the there were

502
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: like Chile as a as a as a nation, as

503
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: a as a people kept up the pressure in in

504
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: a in a pretty significant way, um as opposed to

505
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: kind of fading back after the first couple of weeks.

506
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: And I mean it, I think I'm sure the question

507
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: of why it happened has a lot to do with,

508
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: like you said, inequality, you know, things that have been

509
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: going on for decades. It's it's a it's a complex situation,

510
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: but it does seem like that's one of the big

511
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: takeaways that if you can you can secure even in

512
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: even in a pretty terrifying situation, a lot of concessions,

513
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: a lot of of what you need. But but people

514
00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: have to have to keep putting themselves out there. Yeah. Absolutely,

515
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: I would say it's a couple of things. Um. One

516
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: is um as you mentioned, I think it's like the

517
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: culture of protests here, you know, especially in the last

518
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: ten years, like um with the revolution, Penguin and mices

519
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: inn um, you know, and there were and the feminist

520
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: protests them and um. So it's it's not something that

521
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: just happened two years ago. It's the last decade or

522
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: two has has been the people, especially the young people,

523
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: going out there and protesting. And that's That's one thing

524
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: that's inspiring about boris the candidate for president. The election

525
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: is next month, So the left wing candidate, Boridge, and

526
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: he came out of that movement. He was a student

527
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: protester and a leader of the student movement, and so

528
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: I think it's like it grew out of that, it

529
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: grew out of kids in high school saying this is

530
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: just what we do. This is normal. We go out

531
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: there and protest when when ship happens. And and the

532
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: other thing is, yeah, you know, we always say here

533
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: in Chile after the protests started, Um, it's not thirty

534
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: pace those it's thirty years, you know, thirty years of neoliberalism,

535
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: of this revolving door of center right and center left

536
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: and and just continuing on with the um economic oppression.

537
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: And the other thing I feel like people don't understand

538
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: is that, uh, you know, people either think Chile is

539
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: like the United States or they think it's like Peru

540
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: or something, you know, and it's really neither. In Chile,

541
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: the minimum wage is half of what the United States is,

542
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: which is already terrible. But um, the cost of living

543
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: here is almost the same as you guys in Portland.

544
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean, not the housing probably, but like you know,

545
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: food and stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's like Europe. You know,

546
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: I could move to Berlin and live cheaper than here.

547
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: You know, it is hard to of three times that,

548
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: you know. So so I think it's that's the other

549
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: thing is people just they they had no other choice,

550
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, and we're just bore down by by thirty years,

551
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, after twenty years of the dictatorship, thirty years

552
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: of this terrible wages and um just neoliberalism, and so

553
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: so I think it's it's partially that and partially just

554
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: like the culture of protests that grew out of the

555
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,959
Speaker 1: student movements in in the early two thousand's, mm hmm. Yeah.

556
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: There was one thing that was interested also about that

557
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: I don't remember seeing much of at the time, was

558
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: what was too late organized labor doing during this That's

559
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: a good question. Honestly, labor hasn't been a big part

560
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: of the protest, at least from my point of view.

561
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, Yeah, I mean, it took

562
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: a pretty strong hit during the Pinochet years off, I'm

563
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: not mistaken, So there was kind of that, Like I

564
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: guess that does make sense, sure, Yeah, Honestly, I don't

565
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: know a whole lot about labor history here in Chile.

566
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: But um, but yeah, it definitely is. I mean you

567
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: would see, you know, um union groups in the streets

568
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: here and there, but um, but but definitely they weren't

569
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: a leading voice in the protest. I would say. Yeah, So,

570
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: I guess that leads into the other. I guess one

571
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: of the other things that, from from my understanding, has

572
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: been happening all across Latin America, but but in in

573
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: Chile in particular, is the rise of the informal sector

574
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: and people just sort of not having access to sort

575
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: of stable wages in labor. And I'm wondering about, Okay,

576
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: so organized labors, like the classical unions aren't really involved

577
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: in this, and I guess I'm I'm interested in how,

578
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: if I'm right that that you're dealing with a lot

579
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: of people who aren't doing traditional labor stuff, what was

580
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: the process that was able to get people mobilized. It's like,

581
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: especially people who just have no sort of like people

582
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: who are in the informal sector and people who aren't

583
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: involved in this sort of older classical organizations. Yeah, I

584
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: don't know. I guess I would just say it's like

585
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: that that culture of protests. UM. That comes from the

586
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: young people who in the last twenty years, and then

587
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: of course, UM, the older folks who um you know

588
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: uh lived through the dictatorship, and of course, UM there

589
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: were an incredible protest at that time too. And and

590
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: so I don't know. I mean, honestly, I was even

591
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: after living here for you know, six years, UM, I

592
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: was shocked. I never thought it would come to this.

593
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: I never thought I would see, you know, over half

594
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: a million people in the streets of Santiago. Um. And

595
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: and I would never never thought we'd see a new constitution. So, UM,

596
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't I don't have the answer

597
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: is it's uh, it's surprising to me. But UM, what

598
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: I will say though, is I don't want to paint

599
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: a Rosie portrait of Chile right now because if like

600
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: we mentioned, you know, uh, tomorrow night, if you guys

601
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: go to uh Galeria Seema c I m a on

602
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: YouTube or Instagram. Um, they have a live feed of

603
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: the plaza four blocks from our house. And every Friday,

604
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, you the protests come out and sometimes the

605
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: cops are are right away and they make a whole

606
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: perimeter with two cops and all of the you know,

607
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: tanks and everything, UM, blocking entrance to the plaza in

608
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,439
Speaker 1: every direction. Sometimes they let the people protest, but then

609
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: at ten o'clock, you know, after the sun comes down,

610
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: they come out there, and you know it's it's the

611
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: same thing were a young woman was was killed a

612
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. So and the other thing is

613
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: that we have this election coming up, and uh, this

614
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: guy Cast, extreme right winger Pinochetista, UM, just like they

615
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: call him the Chilean Bosonaro, a real piece of ship.

616
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: And uh he has um, he has really risen in

617
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: the polls in the last month or two. UM. The

618
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: right wing candidate Sitchell, who won the right wing primaries. UM.

619
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: It was kind of going to be the successor to Pinera,

620
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: the current right wing president. UM. Because in Chile, you know,

621
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,479
Speaker 1: you can't run consecutive you can't have consecutive terms. UM.

622
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: But Sitchell just kind of was not a great candidate

623
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: and uh kind of blew it and and he went down,

624
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 1: and and now Cast is going up. And it's really

625
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: scary to think about Cast getting into the second round, UM,

626
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: where it will probably be him verse Boridge and UM.

627
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: And so yeah, you know, even though the constitution was

628
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: approved by seventy of the country. Um, you know, it's

629
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: very possible that this election is going to come down

630
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: to a runoff between a you know, moderate socialist like Boridge,

631
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: um not the most extreme leftist in fact, known as Amario,

632
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 1: you know, very yellow bellied year in Chile, that's his nickname. Um.

633
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: But it will probably Right now, it's looking like it's

634
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: going to come down to him and cast who is

635
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: like almost a return to the dictatorship. So it's it's

636
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: pretty scary, geez. So it's just this there's just so

637
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: much fighting to do. Yeah, it's just so much fighting

638
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: to do. Um, I mean I I uh yeah, um,

639
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: do you have do any of you have anything else

640
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: you want to make sure you say or talk about

641
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: before we kind of close out for the day. Oh no,

642
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 1: I will say, like three days ago, just pay my

643
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 1: I finally paid my whole student loan. Like like, I've

644
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: been working for more than ten years in my life,

645
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: I mean since I finished Liniar City and I've been wasted,

646
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: I mean, all my savings. I just pay this fucking

647
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: student loan. I guess that you guys in this in

648
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: the States are like the same like I don't know,

649
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: except for people don't pay off their student stays there forever.

650
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: And I just, I just I would like to wish

651
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: to the other, to the coming people that I mean,

652
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: I don't wish that future for my from I mean

653
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 1: for the future people in this country. I don't wish

654
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: anyone that I mean university, I mean all students should

655
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: be UM study for free. I mean it's like unconsiderable

656
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, So that was a big part of it.

657
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: And then also the I pay pension system here which

658
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: is totally privatized, and so you you the government just

659
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: takes your money for retirement. You get to choose between

660
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: four or five options which are private companies, and then um,

661
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: if you make money, then uh, the company takes you know,

662
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: their chunk of your your retirement as the payment for

663
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: managing your fund. But if you lose money, then it's

664
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: on you. So literally, you know, Stephie's mom is like,

665
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: you know, checking on her retirement. How did I do

666
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: this year? It's like, oh, you lost two thousand dollars

667
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: this year. That's that's your requirement, Davids. You know, so

668
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: you and you have you know, people here trying to

669
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: live on you retirements of one hundred dollars a month. Wow,

670
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: the military is receiving ten thous dollars a month, you know,

671
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: So that was a big part of it, um. But

672
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: I think what I always come back to here in

673
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: Chile is, like we've said, the activist renamed the plaza Plaza,

674
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: dig me Dad, And that's what it all comes down to,

675
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: is just we're not asking for you know, ponies, as

676
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton would say, We're not we're not asking for

677
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: the moon. We're just asking for basic dignity that everyone deserves.

678
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: And it's as simple as that. So we just have

679
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: to cross our fingers and hope that we've done enough

680
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: that that you know, at a minimum, you know, people

681
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: can live and retire with some dignity, that's all. Yeah,

682
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: and uh, and that enough ecological justice can be gained

683
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: that people can survive what's coming um. Which it's it's

684
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: nice to see at the very least that that's a

685
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: central topic of discussion, um, Whereas in the United States,

686
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: everyone in power seems fine with just ignoring the increasing

687
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: problems right now. So I don't know, you know, I

688
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 1: I again, I also don't want to be painting too

689
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: rosy a picture as you've, as you've repeatedly clear, there's

690
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: a lot of of struggle left still. Um, but at

691
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: least you've you've you've achieved a lot. And I I'm

692
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: just heartened by by hearing your story and and and

693
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: hope that more people pay attention to what's happened there

694
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,439
Speaker 1: and try to take lessons from it, because I think

695
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: we all need to be we all need to be

696
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: gearing up um as as I'm sure you all will

697
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 1: continue to continue to do anything else before we close out. UM. No,

698
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: that's it. I mean, I completely agree. I think that

699
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: just like the messages that like, you know, better things

700
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: are possible, like real, real, real change can happen. You know,

701
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: like this started, uh two years ago with high schoolers protesting,

702
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: and now we're going to have a vote on a

703
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: new constitution. And it's going to be an ecological constitution

704
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: of blurring natural national constitution, um with respect for the

705
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: indigenous people. It's it's uh, it's written by you know,

706
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: an equal amount of men and women and everything and

707
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: and so yeah, just I think for me, it's so

708
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: easy for us who have grown up and you know,

709
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: under the gloom of neoliberalism to to just get really

710
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: depressed and fatalistic about it. And uh so for me,

711
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: I feel the same way, like it's just such an

712
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: inspiration and the Chilean and and especially the Chilean youth. Um.

713
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: But but yeah, um, it's just an inspiration and uh

714
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: and proof that that change can happen. Um. But it's

715
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: not just voting. And you know, like Chileans have elected socialists,

716
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, the former president was a socialist, but it

717
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: was just the same neo liberalism bullshit. So I think,

718
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: you know, voting is great, but like that's just not

719
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: enough and so you have to, um, you know, get

720
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: out in the streets and try to organize and make

721
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: real change in other ways as well. All Right, yeah,

722
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: I agree entirely. Thank you all for coming on. Um.

723
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't appreciate it more And I hope you have

724
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: a lovely rest of your day and a lovely continuing

725
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: to uh stick it to the sons of bitches conquer

726
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: your New Year's resolution to be more productive with the

727
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: Before Breakfast podcast. In each bite sized daily episode, time

728
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: management and productivity expert Laura Vanderkam teaches you how to

729
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: make the most of your time both at work and

730
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: at home. These are the practical suggestions you need to

731
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: get more done with your day. Just as lifting weights

732
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: keeps our body strong as we age, learning new skills

733
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 1: is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to before

734
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. Raffie is the voice

735
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: of some of the happiest songs of our generation, Baby

736
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: So who is the man behind Baby Bluga? Every human

737
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: being wants to feel respected. When we start with young act,

738
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: all good things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian,

739
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: new Dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast

740
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on

741
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

742
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: Hey Leeth the listeners tag here. Last season on Lethal Lit,

743
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: you might remember I came to Hollow Falls on a

744
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: mission clearing my aunt best name and making sure justice

745
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: was finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash

746
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: of new murders tearing apart the town. My mission put

747
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: myself and my friends in danger. Though it wasn't all bad,

748
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to be reality tig I like you, but

749
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: now all signs point to a new serial killer in

750
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: Hollow falls. If this game is just starting, you better

751
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: believe I'm gonna win. I'm tig Torres and this is

752
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: Lethal Lit. Catch up on season one of the hit

753
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit, a tig Tara's Mystery out now,

754
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: and then tune in for all new thrills in season two,

755
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss

756
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I

757
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

758
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: Welcome back to it could happen here. The show that

759
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: is only introduced competently when either someone besides me is

760
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: the one hosting the episode, or when I have a

761
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: guest that I feel embarrassed about being incompetent in front of.

762
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: And and this is this is the latter case, because

763
00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: today I'm talking with my friend and uh AT fired colleague,

764
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: Molly Conjure. Molly, Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

765
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: I got to do that like a professional. Welcome to

766
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: the show. That's like an NPR shit right. I know

767
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: people have been saying on the twitch stream that I

768
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,479
Speaker 1: have a very soothing NPR style. Boint you would be great.

769
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: I would love to hear you uh, talking in NPR

770
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,439
Speaker 1: about how it's it's rad that those those people broke

771
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: the windows on those police cars or whatever. No, I

772
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: can't be allowed in respectable spaces. I can't be allowed there.

773
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: They let me talk on a panel at Harvard one

774
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: time and I accidentally said fun in front of a

775
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: bunch of people. I mean, I assume Harvard students know

776
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: a funk word or two. That one. Speaking of funk words,

777
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: there's a couple of funk words who are under trial

778
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: right now for inciting mass violence that led to human

779
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: death and suffering. Um, you wanna you want to give

780
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: us the overview we're we're talking today about, you know,

781
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:56,919
Speaker 1: do Unite the Right rally and Charlottestill in two thousand

782
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: seventeen that led to three deaths, one as the result

783
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: of direct violence. Had their higher who was murdered murdered

784
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 1: by the fascist James Field, currently in prison for forever. Um, Yeah,

785
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: forever that you know. His trial concluded a while ago. Um,

786
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: But there has been churning through the legal system, a

787
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: trial against Richard Spencer Jason Kessler, who was the main organizer.

788
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: Um can't well, there's other uh plaintiffs, right, Yeah, a

789
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,439
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of fascists about you know, all

790
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: of the things that they did, the fact that they

791
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: clearly intended this to be a violent uh riot assault whatever,

792
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: like they wanted to have it be a fucking lynching essentially,

793
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,919
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of evidence, including things they said

794
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: to each other about building armies to murder people. Um. Anyway, Molly,

795
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: you want to take it from here. I think I've

796
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: introduced the situation. There's a trial going on. You have

797
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: been listening to every day of it and covering it

798
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: on Twitch very ably. UM, and I just kind of

799
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 1: wanted to catch up with you. You also wrote an

800
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: article in Slate with our friend Emily Gortchynsky about, um,

801
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: what's like largely the jury selection of the trial. So

802
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could just kind of give

803
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: us an overview of what's happened so far, if your

804
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 1: thoughts on it. Um. Yeah, that that seems that seems good. Yeah.

805
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: So there's just right at the outset, this is a

806
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: civil trial, right, this is not a criminal trial. No

807
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: one's going to the No one's going to jail at

808
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: the end of this. Some of the jail you call it, Oh,

809
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: what's that? The Who's goal. We call it the Who's

810
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: goal on this show. That's the property, Okay, Um, some

811
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: of them already in jail obviously, Like you said, James

812
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: Fields is serving twenty nine life sentences to that of life,

813
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: it's a lot of life. So he was He was

814
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 1: charged in in Virginia State courty by the Commonwealth of Virginia.

815
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: He was convicted at trial of first degree murder and

816
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: several counts of aggravated malicious wounding. Um. He was so

817
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: that trial happened. He actually went to trial for that,

818
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: but then he pleaded guilty in federal courts. Who was

819
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 1: charged in two separate courts for the same underlying events,

820
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 1: And in federal court he pleaded guilty to twenty nine

821
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 1: federal hate crimes. Um. He pleaded guilty to hate crimes.

822
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: So there's no debate about whether these were hate crimes. Right,

823
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: and he pleaded guilty too. He pleaded guilty to avoid

824
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: the death penalty because a hate crime, murder is a

825
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: capital crime. So in this lawsuit, right, this this civil

826
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: lawsuit against Deep Breath, Jason Kessler, Richard Spencer, Christopher Campbell,

827
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,439
Speaker 1: James Alex Field, Gang Got America, Andrew England Moonbase Holdings,

828
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: Robert Asmond Or Raid, Nathan Tomiko, Elliott Klein, Identity Europe,

829
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,399
Speaker 1: Matthew Parrot, Matthew Himbuch, Traditionalist Worker Party, Michael Hill, Michael

830
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: Tubsley of the South, Jeff Scoop now that the National

831
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: Socialist Movement, Nationalist Front, Augustus oly Invictus, Reternal Order of

832
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: the Alt Knights, Mike Kinevich, Loyal White Nights of the

833
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,919
Speaker 1: KKK East Coast, Knights of the KKK East Coast, Knights

834
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: of the True Invisible Empire. Several of those parties have

835
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: been dismissed from the suit. That's a lot, It's a

836
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: lot of bad guys, right, Um, several of those parties

837
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: have been dismissed from the suit. Augustus and Victus defaulted.

838
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: Um kind of itchiness. That means the fact that he defaulted,

839
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: Does that mean he was like, yes, right, he offered

840
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: no defense. Yeah, so that's what that means. Yeah, I

841
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: mean he's been dealing with a lot, what would. He's

842
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: had some problems, he's been jails, he abducted his wife

843
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,479
Speaker 1: at gunpoint. Um. I think he's out of jail now,

844
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: but he's had some personal problems. He's had some personal problems.

845
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: So the underlying claim with the lawsuit is a section

846
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: complaint a conspiracy to deprive people of civil rights. This

847
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,839
Speaker 1: is fundamentally at it's at his core an anti clan statute. Right,

848
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: it was designed to disrupt clan organizing. Um. And that's

849
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: kind of what it's being used for here, right. This

850
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: is so the lawsuit was brought by by nine plaintiffs

851
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: who were harmed people who got hurt at the rally.

852
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 1: Most of the plaintiffs were physically injured in the car attack,

853
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 1: although not all of them. Um, But these are people

854
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: who are seeking damages, right, Like for all all the

855
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: mootional weight, all the sort of social ramifications, fundamentally this

856
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: is a case about damages. So the jury is going

857
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, these people were harmed. Do we believe

858
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 1: they were harmed by a conspiracy to commit acts of violence?

859
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: Conspiracy to commit racially motivated accidents? Right, So all of

860
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: those elements have to there was k guys want to

861
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: do racial violence when they assaulted people? Yeah? Was their conspiracy?

862
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: Was it motivated by racial animus? And were overt acts

863
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: of violence committed? And did those acts of violence harm

864
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: these people? In a way that entitles them to damages.

865
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: That's all the jury has to decide. Right, should be

866
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 1: an open shed case, not a lot nowhere, but it

867
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: does seem like kind of an open and shut case.

868
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: It does, right, So, I guess if there are people

869
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: out there who are not familiar with the events of

870
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: that day, a lot of alt right groups, you know,

871
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 1: overt Neo Nazi organizations, the Literal Clan, the Literal American

872
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: Nazi Party, like Neo Confederate succession. David's Duke was there.

873
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: David Duke was there. David Duke, who Elliott Klein described

874
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: as an ideological grandfather when he was asking other organizers

875
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 1: that he can invite him. Um, these guys came together,

876
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: they came to Charlotte'sville. They brawldened the streets, they beat people,

877
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: They hit them with shields. A Literal Clan wizard fired

878
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: his gun at a black band while screaming die N word. Well, now, okay,

879
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: it seems like you're reaching a bit to call that

880
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: racially motivated. Well, that's something they're trying to litigate now, right,

881
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: So you're probably familiar with the video of DeAndre Harris

882
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: being beaten nearly to death by morrows of several different

883
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: hate groups. Right, So one of the guys that beat

884
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 1: him was a tv a P member. One of them

885
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: was a League of the South member, and they worked

886
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,439
Speaker 1: together to beat this young man nearly to death while

887
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 1: he was lying on the ground. And so that today

888
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: they were talking about like, well, can we really say

889
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: that was racially motivated? You know, can we really say

890
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: can we really say? Yeah? Um? Yeah, I think we can.

891
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: I think we can. Um. You know, his mother has

892
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: been on podcasts since his conviction. I'm referring to Jacob Goodwin,

893
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: the t TPP member, the man who used a t

894
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: w P riot shield provided to him by Matthew Heinbach

895
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: to beat this young man. His mother goes on Nazi

896
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 1: podcast still to describe how her son is a martyr

897
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: for the white cause there's no ambiguity. But where are

898
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: you getting racially motivated from that moment? Right? Like there's

899
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: a there's a picture of her with her arm around

900
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: her son. Her son's like seven feet tall. He's a

901
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: giant boy. To get her arm around her large adult son,

902
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: and he's wearing a T shirt with a giant picture

903
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: of George Lincoln Rockwell on it. Ah, you love the

904
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: deep cuts, so you know. And Billy Roper's Christmas party, Yeah,

905
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: another another Nazi. Right, So there's not a lot of

906
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: ambiguity here for the average person. But so you know,

907
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: like you were saying, Emily and I wrote about jury selection,

908
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: jury selection is um so corporate seedings are generally speaking

909
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,479
Speaker 1: open to the public. Anyone can go to their local

910
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: courthouse and you can sit through a trial. You can

911
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: sit through the war deer process. You can see how

912
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: a jury gets chosen. You can go trial hopping, get

913
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: wasted re entertainment. As long as you say quietly, they

914
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:17,919
Speaker 1: can't make you leave. It's like a library. It's very

915
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: discouraging because the whole point is to pic jurors who

916
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 1: have never encountered reality. You pick people who don't have

917
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: any opinions, right, because you want them to be able

918
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: to be impartial. And the best way to make sure

919
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: your jury is going to be impartial is to pick

920
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: people who don't have any opinions. And if you don't

921
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: have any opinions on whether or not it's good for

922
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 1: Nazis to beat people in the streets. I would say

923
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: that in and of itself as an opinion that you

924
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: already have right the ability do not have an opinion

925
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: about that. The jury selection took three days because they

926
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: had to go through this process of speaking to each

927
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: jury individually. Usually they'll they'll do it in batches, where

928
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: they ask questions of people in batches, um. But this

929
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: was so sensitive they didn't want to tame the jury pool,

930
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: so they did it one by one. So it took

931
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: three days, um. And they chose jurors who didn't have

932
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: opinions about the existence of racism in the United States. Okay,

933
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: that seems unbiased. Again, It's this thing you keep seeing

934
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: where it's like, well, we can't let people have a bias,

935
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: so it has to be people who have never heard

936
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: of white supremacy, which is like, then that's a bias

937
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: in favor of white supremacy. But of course that's the

938
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: default of the system. It's like that's the tear, right,

939
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: Like you stick white supremacy on the scale and you

940
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 1: tear it, but then you add awareness of white supremacy

941
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: and suddenly there's weight on it. You know, it's sorry,

942
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: it's very frustrating. I know, you know, it's frustrating. I mean, yeah,

943
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 1: I shouldn't frustrating to sit through listening to them to

944
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: ask people, you know, because they had to fill out

945
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: a questionnaire ahead of time, so so they can sort

946
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: of sift through obvious knows um. And one of the

947
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: questions was, you know, how do you feel about how

948
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: concerned are you about these different kinds of prejudice, you know,

949
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: prejudice against black people, prejudice against Hispanic people, prejudice agast

950
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: Jewish people, are prejudice against white people. And a lot

951
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: of people indicated that they were very concerned about anti

952
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: white racism, and a lot of jurors were asked follow

953
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: up questions about like, well, why aren't you more concerned

954
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: about anti white racism. Why did you say you don't

955
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: care about that because it's not real. Yeah, because I've

956
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: never seen it in my entire life. Um, but okay,

957
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: but we seated a jury. We did see the jury

958
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: and there were you know, there's always concerned in a

959
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: case like this that you just won't be able to

960
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: get an impartial jury. But we got it could be worse, right,

961
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: it could be worse. Um. There is a guy on

962
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: the jury who said that in high school he was

963
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: the victim of a racially motivated attack by by a

964
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: Samoan person. Um because they didn't like white people. M hmm,

965
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: I wonder what that person was doing. Slash say, black

966
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 1: people who believe that they have a right to exist

967
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 1: without being subjected to racism not impartial, can't be on

968
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: the jury. But a white guy who says he was

969
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: the victim of a hate crime because some and didn't

970
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:06,439
Speaker 1: like Howley's God, so people talking about like I don't

971
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: like it when folks not from my island come here

972
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: and function up and make it expensive. Yeah, that's anti

973
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: white racist. Incredible, incredible. You know, it could be a worster,

974
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: it could be a worse story, but it's not ideal. Um, God,

975
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: where did we go from there? It's been It's been

976
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: a little bit of a blur. Um can't well and

977
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: Spencer don't have lawyers? Right? Well? Yeah, okay, so right

978
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: because can't well, can't can't well? It is for people

979
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: who aren't aware. Can't Well is representing himself and tell

980
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong here. But he started by

981
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: acknowledging the old saying that a person who represents themselves

982
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 1: as a fool as a lawyer, but then said, but

983
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: I'm not a fool in this case. Yeah, he said,

984
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: you may have heard this, but that's not true here.

985
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: That's not the case here. Unbelievable. And I didn't even

986
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: stay in a Holiday and Express last night. Oh god.

987
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: Really he seriously made a Holiday and Express joke while

988
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: he was Oh my god. But the follow up, the

989
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: follow up was, but I did stay in the Central

990
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: Virginia Regional Jail because that is where he staying. Yeah,

991
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: I mean because he's in prison for sexually or not

992
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 1: for for harassing and threatening and blackmailing another Nazi, right, yeah, yeah,

993
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: he was transported here from the federal prison and Mary

994
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: in Illinois, where he is a guest until next Christmas. Um.

995
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: So he had filed motions to exclude the fact that

996
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: he's currently incarcerated, as is his right right late, like

997
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: if you are a yeah, yeah, absolutely, in a you know,

998
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: in a criminal case or in a in a simple case,

999
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: it is it is your right to have the jury

1000
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: not see you in a jumpsuit. And I respect that,

1001
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: I think perfectly. Absolutely. Yeah. So he went to great

1002
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: links to make sure that the jury would never see

1003
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: him in cuffs, that the marshals wouldn't bring him in

1004
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: in irons, that he would change before the jury arrived

1005
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: at the Cornouse. All very reasonable and no one's going

1006
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: to get to talk about it, but he brought it

1007
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: up in his an opening statement. I'm here from prison.

1008
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm here from prison. By the way, I'm in prison

1009
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: for the other crimes I committed, But they're not related

1010
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: to these crimes. They're not related to these crimes except

1011
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: to the extent that he's unable to shut the funk up.

1012
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 1: He's only in prison because he emailed the FBI or

1013
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: recording him him doing the crime that he's in prison for.

1014
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: He's he's really a very cunning man. But I think

1015
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: you know so, as much as those crimes aren't relevant

1016
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: to this case, I think it is very relevant to

1017
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: his trial strategy, right, that he has this belief that

1018
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 1: all the things he did that were wrong they were right. Actually,

1019
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 1: he just needs to explain to us why he did

1020
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: them and then we'll understand. Right, he's in prison because

1021
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: he tried to talk his way out of a thing

1022
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: that he did that was wrong by telling everyone that

1023
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: he did do it. Yes, I did it because I

1024
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: had to. You didn't have to make an extortionate threat

1025
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 1: to rape another man's wife in front of their children.

1026
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: You didn't actually have to do that. Yeah, that's really

1027
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: I mean I would I might argue, and perhaps I'm

1028
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,479
Speaker 1: an extremist, but there's no situation in which you would

1029
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: ever have to do that. Nobody made you email the

1030
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: FBI about how you did that, but you did. Actually,

1031
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: I would have told you that was a bad idea.

1032
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's some snarky stuff in some in

1033
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: some of the affidavits about how like he called the

1034
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: Keen Police Department trying to tattletale on other people so

1035
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: often that they were tired of taking his calls. Unbelievable.

1036
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: What an amazing man, like he's he's a piece of ship,

1037
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 1: but he is legitimately an incredible person. I mean, if

1038
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: you wrote this, no one would believe it. Right, this

1039
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 1: is so heavy handed, it's so goofy, Like when he

1040
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 1: was paying Elmer in guns his law he paid his

1041
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: lawyer in guns, and then he ran out of guns

1042
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 1: and had his lawyer stopped working for him. Yeah, he

1043
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: doesn't have a lawyer anymore because he ran out of

1044
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 1: guns to pawn. Although I can't anymore because now he's

1045
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: a convicted I gotta say, running out of guns to

1046
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: pawn for your lawyer. It's pretty cocked. He even had

1047
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: to sell the bucket of loose bullets he used to

1048
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 1: keep us a prop on his desk, I mean, really

1049
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: devastating stuff. Um. So he doesn't you're you're down to

1050
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: the brad, You're down to the rails when you're two

1051
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: at that really the bottom of the barrel. So he's

1052
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 1: proceeding pro say, which, unfortunately, unfortunately for everyone involved, means

1053
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: he gets to talk a lot, a lot, a lot

1054
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: a lot, which means he gets to cross examine his

1055
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: own witnesses. Right, So the first two witnesses the plaintiffs

1056
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 1: put on were two of their plaintiffs, right, two young

1057
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: people who were injured in these events. The first witness

1058
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: they put on Natalie as the v a student who

1059
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: had her skull fractured in the car attack. She had

1060
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:43,919
Speaker 1: to learn how to walk again, She had to see

1061
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: a neurologist to retrain her eyes to track movement. I mean,

1062
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 1: she was very badly injured. Um. And so she testified

1063
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 1: at length about the damage that was done to her.

1064
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: Because again this is a case about damages, so the

1065
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: jury needs to learn who is this person, what happened

1066
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: to them? What did it call them physically, mentally, emotionally,

1067
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,360
Speaker 1: financially Um, Because what they're going to be asked to

1068
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 1: do is to put a dollar amount on So they

1069
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: had to meet her and hear about her injuries, um,

1070
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: and hear about her motivation for being there. Um. You know,

1071
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 1: she's a young queer Latino woman as she's the first

1072
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: college student in her family, and she's a very impressive

1073
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: young woman, and she was very composed on the stand

1074
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 1: us as awful as the content was. Um. But then

1075
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 1: every single one of the defendants gets to cross examine her.

1076
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer gets to cross examine her. Christopher Campell gets

1077
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: to cross examine her. James Klennich, who took the case.

1078
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: He's Kessler Demigo and Identity Europea's lawyer, James Klenicch. She's

1079
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: an Ohio based attorney who said on the record that

1080
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 1: he took this case with the express purpose of opposing

1081
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: Jewish influence. Great great Klenich gets to cross examined her.

1082
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: Matt Heimbuck's new lawyer, Josh Smith, used to be the

1083
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: campaign spokesman for Paul Neilon, was endorsed by Trump at

1084
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: one point in his run for Congress. And as also

1085
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: just a straight up Nazi who's repeatedly threatened to murder you. Yeah. Yeah,

1086
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 1: one time he spent all day posting pictures of a

1087
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:08,480
Speaker 1: deer that he said that he named after me. He said,

1088
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,080
Speaker 1: I named this dear Molly. You know, he's been all

1089
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: days stalking at posting pictures of it, posting pictures of

1090
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 1: this gun um. And then he posted a picture of

1091
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: the dear stage like a lynching. And then he spelled

1092
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: my name out in its entrails and posted pictures of that.

1093
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: So you're just like a really normal guy Paul Neeland,

1094
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: which totally completely with it. Um them. His campaign spokesperson

1095
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: when he ran for Congress was the Holocaust denying um

1096
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 1: former Jew Josh Smith. Josh Smith was born Daniel Nussbaum.

1097
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 1: He changed his name to hide his Jewish past. Oh,

1098
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: that is an old story among the Nazis. I mean,

1099
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: we talked about the guy who invented uh sea monkeys,

1100
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's basically the same case. And you know

1101
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: who else hides there? I okay, Um, this was meant

1102
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: to be an ad plug. Normally Sophie would jump in

1103
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: and stopped me from doing that. None of these avertise

1104
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:08,439
Speaker 1: none of these satisers are plaintiffs in the current case

1105
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: that you're covering. That's a guarantee, that is, that is

1106
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,919
Speaker 1: an absolute promise. David Duke is not about to sell

1107
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: you dick pills. No, no, no, although he could use them.

1108
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 1: We're back, Um, all right, Molly, sorry, please continue where

1109
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 1: where we got distracted thinking about David Duke trying to

1110
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 1: sell you dick pills? Yeah, I have That's not good

1111
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 1: for anybody, right, So everybody gets to cross examined. The

1112
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 1: witness Josh Smith is himbox new lawyer. Um, Glennich used

1113
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: to be a lot of these guys lawyers, and then

1114
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,440
Speaker 1: he sort of dropped them over time as they became uncooperative.

1115
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 1: They are all these motions to withdraw clench, slowly dropped

1116
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 1: clients over the last two years. Um, he dropped can't

1117
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:48,599
Speaker 1: Well as a client because Can't Well wouldn't stop posting

1118
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:54,240
Speaker 1: about hurting ROBERTA. Kaplan, who's the lead counsel for the plaintiffs. ROBERTA. Kaplan,

1119
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 1: Femish famous Jewish lesbian lawyer. You know she was on

1120
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 1: the US v Inser the I'm losing it, absolutely losing it.

1121
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:07,040
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court case that gave us gay marriage right. ROBERTA.

1122
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 1: Kaplan brought us gay marriage essentially. So she you know,

1123
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 1: famous Jewish lesbian that is a well known portion of

1124
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,599
Speaker 1: her identity. And kett Well kept posting um anti Semitic

1125
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 1: remarks about her, and finally Kalinicch was like, you're making

1126
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: it really hard to be your lawyer, and you don't

1127
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 1: pay me um and Klenich dropped Heimbuch as a client

1128
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 1: in t because Heimbuch just stopped answering his calls. Great

1129
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: smart people. Yeah. So Matt Parrott, who's Matt Heimbuch's father

1130
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:42,600
Speaker 1: in law but also the husband of the woman that

1131
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 1: he was sleeping. This complicated. There's a chart. There's a chart.

1132
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 1: Matt Heimbuck and Matt Parrot founders of the Traditional Worker Party,

1133
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 1: best friends for a long time. For Child's wives, big problems,

1134
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 1: big problems for them. The Night of Wrong Wives, the

1135
01:09:56,120 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: Knight of the Wrong Wives. So Matt Parrot was technically

1136
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 1: Matt Heimbach's father in law during the time period which

1137
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:09,680
Speaker 1: Heimbach was fucking parent's wife. Very classy people. Not a

1138
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: great situation. So they lost their lawyer. Um Parent very

1139
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 1: publicly told all Traditionalist Worker Party members to destroy evidence.

1140
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 1: So we knew that, right. That was on the record

1141
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:23,839
Speaker 1: from the beginning that Matt parent was like, hey, everyone

1142
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 1: in t TVP, if you did any crimes, delete it right,

1143
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 1: delete your social media, delete your pictures. Like we weren't there, right,

1144
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: and that's a crime. That's a crime. That is a

1145
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: crime right there. But an interesting thing that we learned

1146
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 1: to date. But I don't think we did know before. Um.

1147
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 1: In November, so they played a recording of a conversation

1148
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 1: between Matt Heimbach and Christopher Cantwell and this was during

1149
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: examination of Heimbuch. Heimbuch was on the stand, um, and

1150
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 1: they're talking about like, you know, you didn't produce discovery.

1151
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: You said you lost your phone, this, that and the other.

1152
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 1: You know, after you beat your wife, she threw away

1153
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: your phone. Um. So he said I couldn't turn over

1154
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: my social media accounts because my wife deleted them because

1155
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 1: we had an argument about me taking out the trash, right,

1156
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 1: Like we had this domestic dispute about the trash and

1157
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: she deleted all my accounts, so I couldn't turn them over. Um. Well,

1158
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: today we found out that he told can't well. In

1159
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 1: ten so a year after the lawsuit was filed. When

1160
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 1: a lawsuit was filed against you, you have a legal

1161
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 1: obligation to not do things like this. He told can't

1162
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 1: well that after a conversation with his lawyer, on the

1163
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: advice of his lawyer, he deleted those accounts. Oh, oh great,

1164
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: there's just a record of him criming. Yeah, that's a crime,

1165
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 1: and it also a crime for his lawyer to have

1166
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 1: advised him to do that. Great. Um, again, that's there's

1167
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 1: no direct evidence who told him to do that, but

1168
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:55,679
Speaker 1: we do have a recording of him saying a lawyer

1169
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 1: told him to So that's not great. That's not a

1170
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:00,639
Speaker 1: good situation. Is he going to get charged with anything

1171
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: for that? I am curious. You know, I'm not a lawyer.

1172
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 1: Just for everyone listening, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't

1173
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 1: go to law school. I didn't even finish undergrad I'm

1174
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 1: not a lawyer. Um, but I have listened to a lawyers.

1175
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 1: But I am I am curious. What with what frequency

1176
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 1: can perjury charges be sought in a civil case? Right,

1177
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:23,759
Speaker 1: it's still under Oh it's like it is still perjury.

1178
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: But how common is that to be pursued because they're perjuring? Yeah, perjury,

1179
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 1: perjurer doing the thing the right always does, which is

1180
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 1: trust that the law will never actually come after them

1181
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: for their many crimes, and there's there's a good chance

1182
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 1: they'll be right. You know, like Hinbuch said, you know

1183
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:44,760
Speaker 1: when he was asked, have you ever provided security for

1184
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer? And he said no? And it's okay, Well

1185
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 1: there's like a hundred pictures of you doing that at

1186
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: multiple events. Um. You know, they're claiming they don't know

1187
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 1: each other, Like, here's all these pictures of you guys

1188
01:12:54,760 --> 01:13:01,599
Speaker 1: hanging out. Um, god, where else are we? Um? Yeah,

1189
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:05,799
Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, one thing that kind of especially

1190
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 1: because of the written house thing. And we're actually we'll

1191
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 1: be talking to a lawyer tomorrow night about or tomorrow

1192
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 1: about the written house thing. Um. Every cool person shares

1193
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 1: the same lawyer. Uh um. But yeah, because of that,

1194
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious, what what is your what since

1195
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:30,839
Speaker 1: do you get of this judge? There's no good judges,

1196
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 1: there's no good judges. But it could be yeah, I

1197
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 1: mean I'm not saying like yeah, but how is it?

1198
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 1: It could be? It could be a lot worse. You know,

1199
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,839
Speaker 1: Trump appointed a shipload of federal judges pretty recently. Judgment

1200
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:44,640
Speaker 1: is eighty five years old. He's a Clinton appointee. He's

1201
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 1: a Clinton appointee, so it's could be worse, could be worse.

1202
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:49,680
Speaker 1: He's been on the bench, you know since I was

1203
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 1: an elementary school UM, and he's very old, and he

1204
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:55,719
Speaker 1: doesn't he has it's a little bit hard of hearing.

1205
01:13:56,600 --> 01:14:00,200
Speaker 1: But he's not stupid. Um. There's a lot of people,

1206
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:03,320
Speaker 1: I think we are really frustrated with some of the

1207
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 1: things he's allowing to happen. He's he's really allowing these

1208
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 1: these pro sed defendants to sort of run rough shot

1209
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,759
Speaker 1: over the procedure. But you know, like I said before

1210
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: we started recording, it's really hard to apply. I get

1211
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 1: like the your sense of how things are supposed to

1212
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 1: work doesn't really apply in court. Right. There's a very rigid,

1213
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: sort of outdated set of rules and procedures, and they

1214
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 1: don't feel right. They don't feel logical or reasonable or fair.

1215
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:33,680
Speaker 1: But there is a specific way that it works, and

1216
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 1: it is hard to watch, especially if you've never seen

1217
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 1: it before. And because of the emotionally fraught nature of this,

1218
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 1: it's particularly frustrating to be to be listening on this

1219
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 1: line and saying, like, why are they allowed to do

1220
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 1: this to this witness. Well, legally, you can cross examine

1221
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 1: your witnesses, even if you are the person who hurt them.

1222
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:54,560
Speaker 1: It's not a good system, but it is how it works. Um.

1223
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:57,679
Speaker 1: But he's um And I also think there's there's concern

1224
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: about appellate issues, there's concern about his trial, and so

1225
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 1: they're really going out of their way not to give

1226
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 1: anyone any excuse to say, well, this was not fair

1227
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 1: to me. They're going to say it anyway, but they

1228
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 1: they're really letting them have a long leash in a

1229
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:14,400
Speaker 1: way that feels very bad. But at the same time

1230
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 1: I can't kind of understand it. Yeah, I wish they

1231
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 1: hadn't done so much Holocaust denial, like on on the road,

1232
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 1: that would be good. They put an expert on today,

1233
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:30,599
Speaker 1: who's um Dr Debra Lipstad, who's an expert in Holocaust denial,

1234
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 1: to sort of talk about what the Holocaust is. I

1235
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 1: guess in case the jury doesn't know. God, that's bleak.

1236
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: That's bleak because they chose this jury based on them

1237
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 1: never having heard of Jews. You know, it's a bunch

1238
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 1: of like middle aged people from Green County who have

1239
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: never met a Jewish person, So they had to put

1240
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 1: on a professor to say, okay, when he says gas

1241
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 1: the K words, we're talking about gas chambers, gas chambers

1242
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 1: from the Holocaust. They didn't start out with gas chambers.

1243
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 1: He started with mass shootings. But it was too messy.

1244
01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 1: I mean, she was literally recounting sort of the evolution

1245
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: from the Asans group and you know, shootings in the

1246
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 1: fields to the because of the gas chambers. Like we

1247
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:13,880
Speaker 1: we had to talk all the way through it, um

1248
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: because it seems unnecessary, but again for the jury, it

1249
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 1: might be necessary. And so when Asma Door, Robert don't

1250
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,120
Speaker 1: want to take anything for granted, you know, yeah, right,

1251
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 1: and you really have to sort of lay out these connections, right,

1252
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: because the idea is you have to prove a conspiracy

1253
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 1: and you have to prove the conspiracy was racially motivated. Um.

1254
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: And so when asma Door is the racist wizard name

1255
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 1: that m. Robert Ray uses when he writes for the

1256
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 1: Daily Stormer. When Asmador keeps saying we're going to gas

1257
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 1: the K words, everyone knows what I mean when I

1258
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 1: say that, right, yes, yeah, okay, you know he keeps saying,

1259
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 1: you know, the plan is to gas the kwords. You know,

1260
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:52,800
Speaker 1: g T, K R W n UM gas the K

1261
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:54,760
Speaker 1: words race war now he keeps saying, he keeps saying,

1262
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 1: keeps saying it. And the torch March he Pepper sprays

1263
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of people which he is currently a fugitive

1264
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 1: of justice for UM. He's UM, he's wanted for felony

1265
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 1: in um Almarrale County. He's missing UM. So he says

1266
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 1: he's going to do it, then he does it, and

1267
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:13,000
Speaker 1: then afterwards he's on video saying, yeah, I guessed half

1268
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 1: a dozen K words, so you can see from A

1269
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: to B to C. And then we have this expert saying, Okay,

1270
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 1: what he's saying is a direct reference to the Holocaust, right. Um,

1271
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: It's like he's like you said, it's pretty open and shut.

1272
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,040
Speaker 1: It's pretty straightforward A to B two see. Um. You know,

1273
01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 1: we have these discord leaks um if you want to

1274
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:35,559
Speaker 1: browse them. They're on Unicorn Riot, and almost immediately after

1275
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 1: the rally, Unicorn Riot had these discord leaks um the

1276
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 1: entire server, the Charlesville two point oh server where they

1277
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 1: planned this out, where they're in the discord saying yeah,

1278
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: it's gonna be so great, We're gonna do so much violence.

1279
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:48,880
Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna hurt people. We're gonna bring shield,

1280
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna bring base, really explicitly talking about the plan,

1281
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,800
Speaker 1: making jokes about hitting people with cars. Um, now the

1282
01:17:56,920 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 1: entire discord will be admitted. UM it it has been authenticated.

1283
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 1: They received another copy of it via subpoena directly from discord.

1284
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 1: It's real. It's evidence as much as can't well doesn't

1285
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: like that. But more than that, UM, we have, you know,

1286
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 1: some first person authentication. We heard deposition testimony from Elliott

1287
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 1: Klein's ex girlfriend, UM, the woman that he was living

1288
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,640
Speaker 1: with in seventeen. So in the summer of seventeen, he

1289
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 1: was living with this woman that he had just met

1290
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:29,600
Speaker 1: and it entered into a romantic relationship with Um. She

1291
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:31,800
Speaker 1: has since left the movement. She has a lot of

1292
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:36,040
Speaker 1: regret about her involvement in that time period. And you know,

1293
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:37,679
Speaker 1: there's a little people have a lot of mixed feelings

1294
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:39,280
Speaker 1: about what it means to leave the movement, what it

1295
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:41,639
Speaker 1: means to a tone, is it possible to redeem yourself

1296
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 1: for having been a part of something like that. We

1297
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 1: don't have to litigate that, but we do have to, Well,

1298
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: we do have to recognize that her testimony is damning.

1299
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 1: I mean, this is not this is not Elliott Klein

1300
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 1: putting on a show in public. This is not Elliott

1301
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 1: Klein posturing for his friends. This is Eli at home

1302
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:01,439
Speaker 1: in bed with his girlfriend talking about his fantasies of

1303
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:08,440
Speaker 1: killing all the Jews. Um, and her testimony was pretty harmful. Um,

1304
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 1: you wouldn't think, yeah, it's not great. You know. Really

1305
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: you have to wonder how the jury is taking this

1306
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 1: right these people who have no concept or context for

1307
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:23,559
Speaker 1: this for years. Yea hours of this woman sort of

1308
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 1: near tears talking about how her boyfriend said that he

1309
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 1: was going to put her in a breeding camp once

1310
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: they had the ethno state. Uh. Not nice, really not

1311
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,720
Speaker 1: nice stuff. And she also tested You know, we have

1312
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:41,080
Speaker 1: the messages from the discord where people are posting memes

1313
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 1: and jokes about hitting protesters, but Samantha testified that at

1314
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:47,600
Speaker 1: private parties at Richard Spencer's house in the summer. Of

1315
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:51,639
Speaker 1: these private parties with the organizers of the event at

1316
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer's apartment, people explicitly discussed the legality of hitting

1317
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:02,800
Speaker 1: people with their cars. This is not random people in

1318
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 1: the discord that Richards could say, oh, I don't know him,

1319
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,160
Speaker 1: I never met him. I never posted in discord. This

1320
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:13,600
Speaker 1: is somebody sitting on your couch Richard. Um. Yeah, And

1321
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: you know, Samantha said that during that time period, um

1322
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 1: Klein was building an army for Richard, and Kessler texted,

1323
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:23,160
Speaker 1: Spencer is something similar, right that, where we'll build an army,

1324
01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:29,519
Speaker 1: my liege fucking dorcass ship. But when one fun surprise

1325
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 1: from Samantha was that during that time period Klein was,

1326
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:36,760
Speaker 1: you know, planning to provide his militia in the form

1327
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: of Adentnity Europa, right at least these street troops he

1328
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,639
Speaker 1: was going to provide to Spencer to build the movement,

1329
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 1: but that when the time came, he always knew that

1330
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 1: he would kill Richard to take control. These people are

1331
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:54,839
Speaker 1: all such fucking it's a shame that what they actually

1332
01:20:54,880 --> 01:21:00,759
Speaker 1: are is deniable assets for the most day juris folks,

1333
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 1: you know, the fucking the fucking Bannon types, because if

1334
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,519
Speaker 1: if all of the fascists were this dumb, I wouldn't

1335
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 1: be so worried. And it's hard, it's hard to walk

1336
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,400
Speaker 1: the line between you know, really getting a kick out

1337
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,640
Speaker 1: of some of these moments where you're genuinely funny, right,

1338
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:20,080
Speaker 1: but you remember, like, these people are very dangerous. These

1339
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 1: people are responsible for a death. These people, it's this

1340
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 1: emotional whiplash right of the plaintiffs getting on and saying, yes,

1341
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 1: my life was ruined. I still have nightmares, I still

1342
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 1: have to go to physical therapy. And then can't Well

1343
01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:35,960
Speaker 1: getting up there and asking Heimbach if he's a federal agent, right,

1344
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:38,640
Speaker 1: like I think so, We've only seen one of the

1345
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: defendants on the stand so far, but I have a

1346
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:43,480
Speaker 1: strong feeling can't Well, it's going to use every opportunity

1347
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:46,080
Speaker 1: that he has his frenemies under oath to ask them

1348
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 1: if they snitched on him. Yeah, that's that's going to

1349
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:51,760
Speaker 1: be pretty funny. It's gonna be great. You gotta laugh

1350
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 1: sometimes life's too hard. But Can't Well is really using this.

1351
01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:58,800
Speaker 1: I think you know he has nothing to lose, right,

1352
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 1: This is a case about damage is he has no

1353
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:03,320
Speaker 1: money for them to take. He has thirty thousand dollars

1354
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 1: in credit card debt and his car got repossessed once

1355
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:08,400
Speaker 1: he went to prison. He has nothing for them to take.

1356
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,760
Speaker 1: The only person he knows who did have anything is

1357
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 1: Ian Freeman, who's currently facing federal charges for some sort

1358
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:18,520
Speaker 1: of complicated bitcoin money laundering scam through a fake church. Um.

1359
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:21,479
Speaker 1: So he doesn't even have any friends to help him.

1360
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:23,320
Speaker 1: That's an interesting case, but I don't have time for

1361
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 1: it now. But he has, he has nothing for them

1362
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:28,560
Speaker 1: to take. He's already a felon. He can't have a

1363
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 1: gun anymore. I think he's just using this as an opportunity,

1364
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 1: as a platform to get his message out there and

1365
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 1: to harm the people he thinks harmed him. So every

1366
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:41,439
Speaker 1: chance he gets, he's trying to force witnesses to ducks people. Right.

1367
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 1: He asked one of the plaintiffs, Devin Willis, when another

1368
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 1: young man who was who was injured at the torch

1369
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 1: march um a plaintiff in this case, He asked him

1370
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 1: he forced him to name the names of the non

1371
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:56,360
Speaker 1: parties who were also counter demonstrating at the statue. These

1372
01:22:56,360 --> 01:22:58,920
Speaker 1: people's names have not been on the record. They you know,

1373
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,639
Speaker 1: judgment at him. Do that made him do that? That's

1374
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,479
Speaker 1: and you know, you could if you were, I don't know,

1375
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:10,160
Speaker 1: a complete baby brained idiot, you could say, well, you

1376
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 1: know that maybe there was a legal reason that he

1377
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,800
Speaker 1: needed those names. There's not, and we know there's not,

1378
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 1: because he tried to do it again today. Um. There

1379
01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: was a non party witness, a young woman who lived

1380
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:22,639
Speaker 1: in one of the dorm rooms right by the rotunda.

1381
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:25,639
Speaker 1: They're called the lawn rooms. It's a prestigious opportunity. Only

1382
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 1: super high achievers get to live in those beautiful historic

1383
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:30,479
Speaker 1: law rooms. So she lived right near where the torch

1384
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 1: mark was happening, and she heard it, and she went

1385
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:35,360
Speaker 1: outside and she looked at it. Um, she's not a

1386
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 1: party to the suit. She has no knowledge of these

1387
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:39,719
Speaker 1: people or what happened. She just saw this thing happen.

1388
01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:42,439
Speaker 1: And she testified to that, um, And he tried to

1389
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 1: you know. She had made some passing remark that she

1390
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 1: had heard from another student that maybe there would be

1391
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 1: a thing on campus right that they knew about the

1392
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:54,639
Speaker 1: rally the next day, but like, I don't know, maybe

1393
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 1: these guys will try and come here, just like be

1394
01:23:57,040 --> 01:24:00,680
Speaker 1: on your toes right, not anything specific. Big. She was not.

1395
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,519
Speaker 1: She's not an activist. She's not. She didn't know anything, right,

1396
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:05,920
Speaker 1: And so he was grilled her, tell me who told

1397
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 1: you that? Tell me who told you that? How did

1398
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:10,759
Speaker 1: you know that? And he said, on the record, direct quote,

1399
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:14,599
Speaker 1: I want to know who infiltrated our communications. So he's

1400
01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:16,760
Speaker 1: trying to use this this moment where he has someone

1401
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:22,599
Speaker 1: under oath to extract information about who snitched. He wants

1402
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:26,439
Speaker 1: to know who infiltrated their secret communications, which is him

1403
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:29,440
Speaker 1: admitting their secret communications that weren't turned over in discovery,

1404
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 1: which wasn't smart of him to do. But he's using

1405
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:37,799
Speaker 1: this process to get names of people who he can harass.

1406
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 1: And we know that's what they're doing because while he

1407
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 1: was getting these names from that other witness, you know

1408
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 1: the names of the people at the statue. Jason Kessler,

1409
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:48,280
Speaker 1: the lead defendant, right that, the defendant whose name is

1410
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:51,160
Speaker 1: on the lawsuit, the lead organizer of the rally, is

1411
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:54,680
Speaker 1: posting all this time. He's posting through it, posting through it.

1412
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 1: If you had a good lawyer, he would tell you

1413
01:24:56,240 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 1: not to post through your own conspiracy trial. Um. So

1414
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 1: wal Cantwell is extracting these names from this poor young man.

1415
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 1: Kessler's posting them. He's posting their pictures and their legal

1416
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:10,280
Speaker 1: names and describing their involvement. These people who are not

1417
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 1: party to this lawsuit. And there's no way to interpret

1418
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 1: that other than as as a vehicle for harassment. Um,

1419
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:18,600
Speaker 1: so there's I think there will be there will be

1420
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:21,000
Speaker 1: collateral damage of this lawsuit, but I hope that it

1421
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 1: does UM have the intended deterrent effect. Right, Um, sorry

1422
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:29,759
Speaker 1: to be talking at length for a while, but just insummation, insummation,

1423
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:33,599
Speaker 1: I think, UM. Inside the courtroom, this is a case

1424
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:35,760
Speaker 1: about damages. Right. The judge is very clear that like,

1425
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:39,080
Speaker 1: stop talking about broader societal impact. You can't tell the

1426
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 1: jury about that. That's not relevant to this case. This,

1427
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:44,679
Speaker 1: legally speaking, is a case about did this thing happen

1428
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:47,160
Speaker 1: where these people hurt by it? What is the dollar

1429
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:50,839
Speaker 1: amount of their pain? Legally speaking, that's it. But outside

1430
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 1: the courtroom, this is about deterrence, right, This is about

1431
01:25:54,040 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 1: setting a precedent that if you do this, if you

1432
01:25:57,040 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 1: plan a rally knowing that the people who come to

1433
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: your rally will hurt people because you told them that's

1434
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 1: the goal. Right. Even if you're not the one who

1435
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 1: swings the stick, even if you're not the one pressing

1436
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:10,480
Speaker 1: the accelerator, you are responsible and you can be held accountable.

1437
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:15,000
Speaker 1: Not as an important message, yeah, we will like your

1438
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 1: life will be ruined if you participate in this ship.

1439
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 1: That even if you don't have anything for us to take.

1440
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 1: We will put a garnishment on you that will follow

1441
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 1: you to the fucking grave. Yep. And I think, yeah,

1442
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,439
Speaker 1: that's that's I would agree what I think is important here.

1443
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 1: Um Molly, I think that's that's everything. For now. We're

1444
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 1: still how much how much longer do we have to

1445
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 1: go through this? The court watch a jig. Well, it's

1446
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 1: scheduled for four weeks. It's been one and a half,

1447
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:47,759
Speaker 1: and there was there was some some anxiety and handwringing

1448
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 1: about how maybe four weeks won't cut it. Yeah, Jesus,

1449
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:57,760
Speaker 1: so I'm regretting my decision to actively live tweets. So

1450
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:00,880
Speaker 1: like I'm transcribing in real time for eight hours a day.

1451
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 1: It happens your fingers are using a laptop. Are you

1452
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:06,679
Speaker 1: doing it on a phone? I'm doing it on a laptop,

1453
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:09,040
Speaker 1: thank God. So, because of covid um, no one can

1454
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:11,200
Speaker 1: go into the courthouse because there's so many parties in

1455
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:13,599
Speaker 1: this case, and there's the plague, and no one can

1456
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:15,840
Speaker 1: go into the courthouse except for there's there's a press

1457
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,800
Speaker 1: room where fifteen people who got pre approved by a

1458
01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 1: federal court can go and sit and look at a

1459
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:24,439
Speaker 1: monitor Um, but I'm sitting at home. I'm comfy at home,

1460
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:28,680
Speaker 1: so I'm thank god. Yeah that would be and I was.

1461
01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:30,400
Speaker 1: I was disappointed. You know, I kind of wanted to

1462
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:32,800
Speaker 1: see I love to see you, love the courtroom ambiance.

1463
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:36,599
Speaker 1: But I'll be honest and less work. I'm way less

1464
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:40,160
Speaker 1: worried about getting stabbed here at home. That is true.

1465
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:43,839
Speaker 1: That is true. People are less likely to get stabbed

1466
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:47,640
Speaker 1: at home, or more likely one of the two. Um,

1467
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. Tell us in the comments where you

1468
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:55,759
Speaker 1: think people are most likely to get stabbed. Uh and um, Molly,

1469
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:57,800
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thank you both for what you're

1470
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 1: doing and for coming on the show. Is there any

1471
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:05,040
Speaker 1: where the listeners can find slash support you? Would you

1472
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:09,880
Speaker 1: like people to mail you knives? What? Oh? Mail me knives? Yeah,

1473
01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 1: but not as a threat, like as a fun thing,

1474
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:17,240
Speaker 1: fun knives for fun. I did get a large machete

1475
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 1: in the mail the other day, and before I saw

1476
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:22,760
Speaker 1: the little gift note, I was confused. Oh good, okay,

1477
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're getting a gift machetes. Yeah. Yeah, my

1478
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:29,120
Speaker 1: my friendship is a sheep farmer in North Carolina sent

1479
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:34,080
Speaker 1: me a large blade. Yep. Um no, but So if

1480
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:38,240
Speaker 1: you're interested in reading moment by moment live transcription of

1481
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:42,680
Speaker 1: people screaming Holocaust denial at a federal judge, Um, you

1482
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 1: can check me out on Twitter. That's at Socialist Dog mom.

1483
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:48,360
Speaker 1: That's what happens when you make a little joke with

1484
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:51,800
Speaker 1: your friends, when you have five followers and um, and

1485
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:54,519
Speaker 1: then you end up using it professionally, and then you

1486
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:58,599
Speaker 1: wish national news repeatedly. I don't. Then people are posting

1487
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 1: your mug shot making fun. You know, your bullshit mug shot.

1488
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 1: You look great, but it's bullshit. Um, nobody looks good

1489
01:29:07,200 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: after they get left in a hot van like a dog. Yeah,

1490
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:17,559
Speaker 1: but that's true. Well, Molly, that's gonna be the end

1491
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 1: of the episode. So why don't we, Why don't we

1492
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:25,400
Speaker 1: sing a song and and and roll out? Hopefully not

1493
01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:28,760
Speaker 1: the song that Heimbuch included in his Christmas letter to

1494
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:31,559
Speaker 1: James Fields in prison. Oh God, that must have been

1495
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:36,760
Speaker 1: really special. Jeez, I'll have to look that up. I

1496
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:40,960
Speaker 1: did come across in my my browsing through Fascist Telegram

1497
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 1: the other week, an entire album dozens of songs that

1498
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 1: we're all Nazi covers of Blink one eight two's entire discography, everything, everything,

1499
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 1: and they called it, of course, they called it blink like.

1500
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: Of course it was I don't I don't even know,

1501
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:04,000
Speaker 1: like I don't even know like how to talk about that.

1502
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 1: It was just the thing that I found. Do you

1503
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:10,719
Speaker 1: know hampt Install, the guy who studies malicious Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1504
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 1: he's got a particular fascination with white power wrap. Oh god, yeah,

1505
01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 1: it's never any good, although there was a there was

1506
01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:20,839
Speaker 1: a fun in one of the h Bomber Guy videos

1507
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:23,640
Speaker 1: he found finds this flat earth Nazi who has a

1508
01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:31,920
Speaker 1: wrap that's amazing. Alright, partial, I'm partial to can't wells distracts, Yeah, god,

1509
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:37,639
Speaker 1: Chris camp Well, well, thank you, Molly, and uh off

1510
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 1: we go into the wild blue yonder. I'm gonna go

1511
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:44,599
Speaker 1: to smoke some legal weed and fall asleep, face down,

1512
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:47,800
Speaker 1: hopefully not thinking about this trial. I Am not going

1513
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:52,320
Speaker 1: to smoke some legal weed because that's federally a crime. Molly,

1514
01:30:52,800 --> 01:31:02,840
Speaker 1: have a good day, Molly, thank you for listening. When P. T.

1515
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 1: Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the grounds in eighteen

1516
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:09,320
Speaker 1: sixty five, what rose from its ashes would change the world.

1517
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:13,599
Speaker 1: Welcome to Grim and Mild presents an ongoing journey into

1518
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 1: the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. For our inaugural season,

1519
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:20,599
Speaker 1: we'll be giving you a backstage tour of the always

1520
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 1: complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that is the American

1521
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: Side Show. So come along as we visit the shadowy

1522
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:31,000
Speaker 1: corners of the stage and learn about the people who

1523
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 1: were at the center of it all in a place

1524
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:37,000
Speaker 1: where spectacle was king. We will soon discover there's always

1525
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:40,040
Speaker 1: more to the story than meets the eye, So step

1526
01:31:40,160 --> 01:31:43,240
Speaker 1: right up and get in line. Listen to Grim and

1527
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:46,680
Speaker 1: Mild Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1528
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:50,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at

1529
01:31:50,360 --> 01:31:57,719
Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild dot com. Slash Presents Executive producer Paris

1530
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:01,720
Speaker 1: Helton brings back the hit podcast How Men Think. And

1531
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:04,960
Speaker 1: that's good news for anyone that is confused by men,

1532
01:32:05,320 --> 01:32:08,720
Speaker 1: which is basically everyone get an inside look at what

1533
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 1: goes on in the mind of men from the men themselves.

1534
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 1: It's real talk, straight from the source. How Men Think

1535
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:18,320
Speaker 1: podcast is exactly what we need to figure them out.

1536
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:21,559
Speaker 1: It's going to be fun and formative and probably a

1537
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,960
Speaker 1: bit scary at times because we're literally going inside the

1538
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:27,639
Speaker 1: minds of men. As much as we like to think

1539
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:32,000
Speaker 1: all men are the same, they're actually very different. Each week,

1540
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:35,679
Speaker 1: a celebrity guest host provides honest advice in his area

1541
01:32:35,760 --> 01:32:38,600
Speaker 1: of expertise. When I agreed to do this reboot, I

1542
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 1: had a few conditions. No sugarcoating, no mind games, and

1543
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:47,360
Speaker 1: absolutely no man splaining. Men are hard enough to understand

1544
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 1: without the mind games. Listen to how Men Think on

1545
01:32:50,439 --> 01:32:53,680
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you

1546
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:57,080
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. What's Up Guys on My Shop Aloud

1547
01:32:57,120 --> 01:32:58,760
Speaker 1: and I am Troy Millions and we are the wholes

1548
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:01,280
Speaker 1: of the Ernial Leisure pot Cast, where we break down

1549
01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:04,639
Speaker 1: business models and examine the latest trans and finance. We

1550
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 1: hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of the

1551
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:09,599
Speaker 1: biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment, from DJ Khaled

1552
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:12,120
Speaker 1: to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean

1553
01:33:12,160 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 1: our alumnilists expansive. Listen to as our guests reveal their

1554
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:18,000
Speaker 1: business models, hardships and triumphs and their respective fields. The

1555
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:20,360
Speaker 1: knowledge is in death and the questions are always delivered

1556
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:22,680
Speaker 1: from your standpoint. We want to know what you want

1557
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:25,599
Speaker 1: to know. We talked to the legends of business, sports,

1558
01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:28,759
Speaker 1: and entertainment about how they got their start and most importantly,

1559
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:30,800
Speaker 1: how they make their money. Earn your Leisia is a

1560
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:33,120
Speaker 1: college business class mixed with pop culture. I want to

1561
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:35,719
Speaker 1: learn about the real estate game, unclears, how the stock

1562
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:38,400
Speaker 1: market works. We got you interested in starting a truck

1563
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 1: and company or vending machine business. Not really sure about

1564
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:43,799
Speaker 1: how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered.

1565
01:33:43,840 --> 01:33:46,960
Speaker 1: The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier

1566
01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:50,360
Speaker 1: Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app,

1567
01:33:50,600 --> 01:34:06,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back

1568
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:10,560
Speaker 1: to it could happen here. The podcast that is occasionally

1569
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:15,160
Speaker 1: introduced competently as it sort of was today because our

1570
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,519
Speaker 1: guest today is someone who is very near and dear

1571
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:22,840
Speaker 1: uh to me and to like almost every other person

1572
01:34:23,000 --> 01:34:28,080
Speaker 1: that I know and work with. Um, Moira Meltzer Cohen. Moira,

1573
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:32,640
Speaker 1: you are a lawyer, uh, focusing on civil rights and

1574
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:35,719
Speaker 1: movement kind of cases. Uh. And you are the lawyer

1575
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 1: of yeah, like every everybody I respect in the world. Yeah. Um,

1576
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:46,639
Speaker 1: You're the person that I text whenever I need to know, Hey,

1577
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 1: was this a crime? Um or it never is, and

1578
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:56,080
Speaker 1: it never is. I'm law abiding, very law abiding. UM,

1579
01:34:56,120 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, we wanted to have you on both

1580
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:02,800
Speaker 1: because you're always a breath of sunshine and because, um,

1581
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:05,120
Speaker 1: there's some like lost stuff happening these days. We just

1582
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:08,400
Speaker 1: had our mutual friend Molly Conjure on to talk about

1583
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:12,400
Speaker 1: the Charlottesville case, which is quite a thing. Today was

1584
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:16,880
Speaker 1: the day today. Today had some had some moments, Chris

1585
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:21,519
Speaker 1: can't Well and Richard Spencer representing themselves separately, each cross

1586
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:27,680
Speaker 1: examining each other. I have so many thoughts, but mostly

1587
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:33,400
Speaker 1: my thoughts involved laughing. It's very very funny. It's it's

1588
01:35:33,479 --> 01:35:37,520
Speaker 1: it's the funniest of of an incredibly tragic and infuriating situation.

1589
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:42,000
Speaker 1: Something finely funny finally happened. Um, so at least there's

1590
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:48,160
Speaker 1: that often very funny in spite of himself. Yeah, um,

1591
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 1: I would love one day to just get you on

1592
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:51,560
Speaker 1: and duo, we can do a reading of some of

1593
01:35:51,640 --> 01:35:55,920
Speaker 1: Chris can't Well's better legal filings. Um. These guys quite

1594
01:35:55,920 --> 01:36:00,400
Speaker 1: the legal mind, Robert. I think I maybe didn't ever

1595
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: tell you about the fact that we um did a

1596
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 1: quorums feel, which is a performance of the story of

1597
01:36:09,240 --> 01:36:13,880
Speaker 1: Esther Um, Oh my God, traditionally done at Poorham, which

1598
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,400
Speaker 1: is a Jewish holiday UM, and it was based on

1599
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 1: the complaint that he filed God. Those of Twitter the

1600
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 1: third was prominently featured in the role of Hayman. For

1601
01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:33,320
Speaker 1: the those of you who don't know, Chris Cantwell, the

1602
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:36,080
Speaker 1: crying Nazi from the Unite the Right rally has been

1603
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:39,560
Speaker 1: incarcerated for a year or so now UM and continues

1604
01:36:39,640 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: to put out his own legal motions, generally handwritten UM,

1605
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:46,680
Speaker 1: alleging all kinds of conspiracies from the people who did

1606
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:49,919
Speaker 1: not call the FBI and admit to committing several crimes.

1607
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:53,479
Speaker 1: We should, we should absolutely absolutely do a crossover with

1608
01:36:53,560 --> 01:37:00,040
Speaker 1: dandel Harper um and to discuss Wells legal genius. But

1609
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:02,240
Speaker 1: but today more we wanted to have you on because

1610
01:37:02,280 --> 01:37:05,599
Speaker 1: there is another case that a lot of folks are

1611
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:09,520
Speaker 1: rightly concerned about, because it has some pretty dire implications

1612
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:11,759
Speaker 1: depending on how it goes in a number of ways.

1613
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:16,320
Speaker 1: The trial of Kyle Rittenhouse UM. For the I mean,

1614
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:19,799
Speaker 1: everyone knows Kyle written House took a gun illegally across

1615
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:22,080
Speaker 1: state lines to a protest so he might have the

1616
01:37:22,160 --> 01:37:24,880
Speaker 1: chance to shoot people. Um. And then shot people. This

1617
01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:28,120
Speaker 1: is my opinion about what happened. Obviously, the legal case

1618
01:37:28,240 --> 01:37:32,040
Speaker 1: is unfolding. UM. There's been a lot of talk online

1619
01:37:32,280 --> 01:37:35,840
Speaker 1: on on Twitter and whatnot about how obviously unfair the

1620
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:38,200
Speaker 1: judges being. This is what the talk on Twitter is about.

1621
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:41,080
Speaker 1: And it's because of a couple of things. One is

1622
01:37:41,120 --> 01:37:44,320
Speaker 1: that the judge and and again I'm before I cut,

1623
01:37:44,360 --> 01:37:46,400
Speaker 1: I go to you, Moira. I'm just explaining kind of

1624
01:37:46,400 --> 01:37:48,680
Speaker 1: the way the discourse has been. The discourse has stated like, well,

1625
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:51,840
Speaker 1: the judge said, you can't call Kyle, you can't call

1626
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 1: the people that he killed victims, but you can call

1627
01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:57,880
Speaker 1: the people that he killed looters and arsonists. Um. And

1628
01:37:57,920 --> 01:38:00,439
Speaker 1: so people are saying, look at this very clear example

1629
01:38:00,479 --> 01:38:03,960
Speaker 1: of how how bad the justice system is. UM. And

1630
01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:05,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring you on for a number of reasons,

1631
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 1: including the fact that, like there's a lot of stuff

1632
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:11,280
Speaker 1: that seems fucked up and in fact is sucked up,

1633
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 1: you could argue, but it's also like like pretty normal

1634
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:16,920
Speaker 1: justice system stuff and some stuff that seems fucked up

1635
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 1: but actually isn't. This is not I'm not necessarily talking

1636
01:38:19,800 --> 01:38:21,720
Speaker 1: about the Rittenhouse case here, just in general, and we

1637
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: talk about the law. So I guess I wanted to

1638
01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:26,840
Speaker 1: have you on to explain to us what's happening in

1639
01:38:27,240 --> 01:38:31,320
Speaker 1: your opinion and how normal, abnormal, good, bad are kind

1640
01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:33,759
Speaker 1: of the things that we're seeing, the decisions we're seeing

1641
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:37,840
Speaker 1: this judge make UM in this case so far, Yeah, sure,

1642
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:41,439
Speaker 1: absolutely so. The trial, UM, I think when you asked

1643
01:38:41,439 --> 01:38:46,000
Speaker 1: me to comment on this, Um, the trial had not started.

1644
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:51,559
Speaker 1: The trial has now started. It has been characterized by

1645
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:58,559
Speaker 1: the defense saying the N word be here this morning,

1646
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:03,160
Speaker 1: I think was dismissed for making a cruel and nakedly

1647
01:39:03,320 --> 01:39:06,920
Speaker 1: racist joke. Uh. And apparently the judge had a fit

1648
01:39:07,000 --> 01:39:10,599
Speaker 1: of peak about the media's response to his evidentiary rulings,

1649
01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:14,559
Speaker 1: which are what you've asked me to come discuss, um,

1650
01:39:14,600 --> 01:39:18,759
Speaker 1: Which is itself actually one of the more unusual things

1651
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:23,639
Speaker 1: about this how this trial is going. Um. It's always

1652
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:25,800
Speaker 1: a little bit hard for me to appine on a

1653
01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:30,880
Speaker 1: case that is not my case. UM. I feel tentative

1654
01:39:30,920 --> 01:39:34,960
Speaker 1: about it. Um. This would never be my case because

1655
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 1: I would not represent a white supremacist, and I am

1656
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:42,559
Speaker 1: not a prosecutor and would never be a prosecutor. And

1657
01:39:43,479 --> 01:39:48,000
Speaker 1: I was not able to look at the briefing, because

1658
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:52,680
Speaker 1: although all of the briefing was ostensibly publicly filed, it

1659
01:39:52,840 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 1: is not actually publicly available. UM. I had a very

1660
01:39:56,880 --> 01:40:00,559
Speaker 1: interesting conversation with the Clerk of court and Kenosha told

1661
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:03,960
Speaker 1: me that if I mailed her a request, she would

1662
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:08,839
Speaker 1: fax me the briefing at a dollar twenty five a page.

1663
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:12,559
Speaker 1: And I said, thank you very much, goodbye. UM. So

1664
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:15,679
Speaker 1: I'll do my best to speak to these rulings, UM,

1665
01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:19,679
Speaker 1: and the sort of larger issues as I see them. UM.

1666
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:21,439
Speaker 1: As you noted, there's been a lot of kind of

1667
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:25,639
Speaker 1: salacious headlines about the evidence here in this case, UM,

1668
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:29,519
Speaker 1: and I think those headlines are really they're less about

1669
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:31,760
Speaker 1: what's actually happening in the case, and they're more reflective

1670
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:36,040
Speaker 1: of the sort of pearl clutching UM liberal impulse to

1671
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:41,519
Speaker 1: to notice the totally self evident hypocrisy of the legal system. UH,

1672
01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:44,599
Speaker 1: and then to conclude that because certain groups are shown

1673
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:48,680
Speaker 1: more leniency, the way to resolve this hypocrisy is to

1674
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 1: make sure everyone is pleased and prosecuted and punished as

1675
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:58,280
Speaker 1: viciously as the left is, which is not actually the

1676
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:02,799
Speaker 1: goal that I have. And just to clarify when I

1677
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:06,200
Speaker 1: when I talk about liberals as I as I will

1678
01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:09,160
Speaker 1: probably do a little bit. Um. I don't mean like,

1679
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 1: I mean liberal as opposed to radical Um. People who

1680
01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 1: are more or less okay with the underlying big systems, uh,

1681
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:22,040
Speaker 1: like capitalism and white dipremacy and hetero patriarchy and like,

1682
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:26,960
Speaker 1: maybe are more concerned with the iterations of those things

1683
01:41:26,960 --> 01:41:30,760
Speaker 1: that are particularly ghost but they don't actually mind the

1684
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:34,160
Speaker 1: systems themselves that or the way that those systems are

1685
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:41,760
Speaker 1: reiterated and enforced by, for example, the American criminal legal system. UM.

1686
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:44,439
Speaker 1: So you know, I think the kind of liberal read

1687
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:50,120
Speaker 1: on these rulings is not only not legally sound, um,

1688
01:41:50,160 --> 01:41:55,000
Speaker 1: I think it's actually incredibly dangerous. And it's watching this

1689
01:41:55,120 --> 01:41:58,280
Speaker 1: unfold and watching the liberal commentary on it, I think

1690
01:41:58,439 --> 01:42:00,559
Speaker 1: is one of the things. It's one of the ways

1691
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:07,120
Speaker 1: that I can really see liberal liberals and liberalism losing credibility, um,

1692
01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:11,600
Speaker 1: because because they're sort of calling out this hypocrisy and

1693
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:13,160
Speaker 1: at the same time, there's a little bit of a

1694
01:42:13,160 --> 01:42:16,639
Speaker 1: double standard that they want to um, that they want

1695
01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:19,880
Speaker 1: to propose an enforce UM. So okay, So I'll talk

1696
01:42:19,920 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 1: about the rulings that you discussed. UM. The first one

1697
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 1: is that the judge. Um, so that the prosecution is

1698
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:28,639
Speaker 1: not allowed to refer to the people at in House

1699
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:33,280
Speaker 1: killed as victims. Um. I will remind you, as I

1700
01:42:33,320 --> 01:42:37,920
Speaker 1: remind all of my clients continuously, UM, that the law

1701
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:43,040
Speaker 1: is at best adjacent to common sense understandings of justice

1702
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:49,800
Speaker 1: and even frankly common sense understandings of reality. Um. Obviously

1703
01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:54,280
Speaker 1: the people that Kyle Rittenkow's killed were victims. Um. But

1704
01:42:54,479 --> 01:43:01,560
Speaker 1: as my beloved colleague Sandy reminded me, uh it, the

1705
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:05,479
Speaker 1: concept of victimhood, the status of victimhood is among the

1706
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 1: things that needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt

1707
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:13,200
Speaker 1: at this trial. Yeah right, um. And so in in fact,

1708
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:17,799
Speaker 1: this is a totally straightforward ruling. It is a ruling

1709
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 1: that I would argue for as a defense attorney and

1710
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:24,360
Speaker 1: that I expect to win where I trying in murder case.

1711
01:43:25,439 --> 01:43:30,320
Speaker 1: So you know, it's one of those things like you

1712
01:43:30,400 --> 01:43:34,240
Speaker 1: have to overcome this, this you have to overcome when

1713
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:36,439
Speaker 1: you're thinking about a trial, like the fact that you

1714
01:43:36,479 --> 01:43:39,360
Speaker 1: know he's guilty, because the point of a trial is

1715
01:43:39,400 --> 01:43:42,800
Speaker 1: that everyone like there's a process. Right, we don't just

1716
01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:47,320
Speaker 1: do street justice because that's what written House did. Um.

1717
01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:51,120
Speaker 1: Like we're we're you have to like one of the

1718
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:53,760
Speaker 1: It is troubling to me the extent that people are like, well,

1719
01:43:53,760 --> 01:43:57,360
Speaker 1: he he should be presumed like we should be referring

1720
01:43:57,400 --> 01:43:59,760
Speaker 1: to the people he shot as victims before he has

1721
01:43:59,800 --> 01:44:03,479
Speaker 1: been adjudicated as guilty, because like, that's that's important, Like

1722
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:07,080
Speaker 1: the presumption of innocence matters, and it's it's it's also

1723
01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:10,759
Speaker 1: something that's very unfair, Like there's a person in Portland,

1724
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:14,960
Speaker 1: Alexander Dial, who got in trouble for taking a hammer

1725
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:18,040
Speaker 1: out of a Nazi's hand during a rally um and

1726
01:44:18,080 --> 01:44:20,760
Speaker 1: has been charged with several felonies and because his trial

1727
01:44:20,840 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 1: kept getting delayed, spent two and a half years under

1728
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:26,559
Speaker 1: pre trial conditions. So the presumption of innocence is hardly equal,

1729
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:31,200
Speaker 1: but it is important. Yeah, exactly, and I think that

1730
01:44:32,360 --> 01:44:35,320
Speaker 1: you know, we'll talk about this, I think in a

1731
01:44:35,320 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 1: little bit, but that's exactly the issue, right, is that, um,

1732
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:44,160
Speaker 1: we need to be enforcing the equal application of the

1733
01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:49,559
Speaker 1: presumption of innocence, not being you know, rapidly going after

1734
01:44:49,960 --> 01:44:52,639
Speaker 1: the right in the same way that we are used

1735
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:57,800
Speaker 1: to uh law enforcement and the judiciary going after the left. UM.

1736
01:44:57,920 --> 01:45:03,200
Speaker 1: The other ruling that the made um which you mentioned

1737
01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:07,800
Speaker 1: was that he said that the defense is authorized to

1738
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:10,880
Speaker 1: characterize the people that written has killed as looters or

1739
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:13,559
Speaker 1: rioters if there's evidence presented that they were in fact

1740
01:45:13,600 --> 01:45:18,120
Speaker 1: looting and were rioting. I would, if I were, you know,

1741
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:21,719
Speaker 1: in this case, which of course I'm not, I would

1742
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:24,840
Speaker 1: object to this on the grounds that it is prejudicial

1743
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:29,400
Speaker 1: in bullshit and it's sucked up in bullshit. Yeah. Yes,

1744
01:45:29,720 --> 01:45:33,960
Speaker 1: that said, I am not super surprised by that ruling. UM.

1745
01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:37,640
Speaker 1: I would say, it's likely within the sound discretion of

1746
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:41,240
Speaker 1: the judge and if you know, when if the prosecution disagrees,

1747
01:45:41,240 --> 01:45:47,960
Speaker 1: it's a matter for appeal. UM. You know, I think, UM.

1748
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:50,839
Speaker 1: One of the things the judge said about this, actually

1749
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:55,360
Speaker 1: that I think is really important and correct, UM, is

1750
01:45:55,920 --> 01:45:59,320
Speaker 1: that he has uh a tremendous amount of discretion in

1751
01:45:59,439 --> 01:46:02,760
Speaker 1: making of an and cherry rulings. Rulings. UM. One of

1752
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:06,320
Speaker 1: the rulings he made was that he's admitting the testimony

1753
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:09,760
Speaker 1: of an expert witness, UM, which you know, I think

1754
01:46:09,760 --> 01:46:14,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people are also quite upset about. UM.

1755
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:17,680
Speaker 1: But that said, again, this is not that unusual, and

1756
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:21,000
Speaker 1: it's very difficult for him to deny that motion to

1757
01:46:21,040 --> 01:46:25,160
Speaker 1: have his evidence or his testimony admitted because the prosecution

1758
01:46:25,479 --> 01:46:30,960
Speaker 1: routinely uses use of force experts in similar trials. Um.

1759
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:34,040
Speaker 1: So now we're they're just on the other side of

1760
01:46:34,080 --> 01:46:38,960
Speaker 1: the table. Yeah. So you know, first of all, I

1761
01:46:39,040 --> 01:46:43,240
Speaker 1: get that these rulings don't make us feel good. Um,

1762
01:46:43,240 --> 01:46:46,560
Speaker 1: but they aren't that strange. And as I said, the

1763
01:46:46,640 --> 01:46:50,720
Speaker 1: judge has tremendous discretion in these matters. Um. I was

1764
01:46:50,800 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 1: thinking about how to illustrate this, and it occurred to

1765
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:54,920
Speaker 1: me that I think the last time I was on

1766
01:46:54,920 --> 01:47:00,840
Speaker 1: one of your podcasts, you asked me whether cocaine was illegal. Yeah, um,

1767
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:03,519
Speaker 1: what are we landing on that? By the way, so

1768
01:47:03,600 --> 01:47:05,600
Speaker 1: I think the first time you asked me, I was

1769
01:47:05,640 --> 01:47:08,840
Speaker 1: a total kill joy and was like, of course it's

1770
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:12,719
Speaker 1: a legal provert um. But if I had actually taken

1771
01:47:12,760 --> 01:47:15,479
Speaker 1: your question more seriously, I think a better answer probably

1772
01:47:15,520 --> 01:47:21,200
Speaker 1: would have been nobody knows. Um. For precisely this reason,

1773
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:24,759
Speaker 1: because the real question is not what the law says.

1774
01:47:25,479 --> 01:47:31,080
Speaker 1: The real question is how, or whether, or against whom,

1775
01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:34,680
Speaker 1: or to what degree and under what circumstances will that

1776
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 1: law be enforced? And these are always open questions and arguments,

1777
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:42,240
Speaker 1: and judges have a ton of power this case is

1778
01:47:42,400 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 1: no exception. So you know, again, not only are these

1779
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:49,360
Speaker 1: rulings pretty standard, but there I think within the judge's discretion.

1780
01:47:49,479 --> 01:47:52,439
Speaker 1: Some of them I really dislike. Some of them make

1781
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:56,519
Speaker 1: total sense to me. Um, and I think that what

1782
01:47:56,760 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 1: is happening is is not necessarily sound legal analysis, but

1783
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:05,640
Speaker 1: liberals sort of trying to argue that Writtenhouse should be

1784
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:10,080
Speaker 1: more harshly prosecuted by saying that these specific rulings are

1785
01:48:10,160 --> 01:48:14,360
Speaker 1: unfair or unusual. It's a little bit like the liberals

1786
01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:16,519
Speaker 1: crying out now because people are putting like, let's go

1787
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:19,599
Speaker 1: brandon on printing it on rifle receivers and saying like, well,

1788
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 1: the Secret Service should investigate it. Well, if they do that,

1789
01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:24,680
Speaker 1: then some then like thirty if they do that, and

1790
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:27,640
Speaker 1: like one company gets a fine, forty people are going

1791
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:29,559
Speaker 1: to go to prison for having red flags on their

1792
01:48:29,600 --> 01:48:33,080
Speaker 1: body armor. Like that's the way it works in this country.

1793
01:48:33,160 --> 01:48:35,800
Speaker 1: But the right thing, Yeah, any any anarchists for the

1794
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,600
Speaker 1: three D printer is gonna immediately go to jail. Yeah

1795
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:43,120
Speaker 1: that's not like that is correct. Yeah, So I guess

1796
01:48:43,240 --> 01:48:44,760
Speaker 1: the thing that I want to point out here is

1797
01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:47,559
Speaker 1: that what is actually unusual about this case is not

1798
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:50,760
Speaker 1: these rulings, it is that Written House is going to

1799
01:48:50,920 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 1: trial at all. And the reason Written House is going

1800
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:57,400
Speaker 1: to trial is able to go to trial is largely

1801
01:48:57,400 --> 01:49:03,639
Speaker 1: because this prosecution is fundamentally calculated it not to be repressive. UM. So,

1802
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:06,080
Speaker 1: I want to kind of zoom out and get away

1803
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:11,600
Speaker 1: from the weeds of the potentiary rulings. Um So, in

1804
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:14,920
Speaker 1: its simplest expression, when we talk about the difference between

1805
01:49:14,960 --> 01:49:21,560
Speaker 1: state and federal jurisdiction, we're saying, kind of, um, jurisdiction

1806
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:26,680
Speaker 1: for dummies, Uh, overly simplified is stuff that happens inside

1807
01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:30,760
Speaker 1: or only impacts a given state is typically prosecuted by

1808
01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:34,599
Speaker 1: the state. And if it impacts if your offense conduct

1809
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:39,760
Speaker 1: or alleged defense conduct impacts more than one state, um,

1810
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:43,960
Speaker 1: then it is or can be prosecuted by the federal

1811
01:49:44,040 --> 01:49:49,479
Speaker 1: Department of Justice. So Kyle Rittenhouse crosss state lines with

1812
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:54,160
Speaker 1: a pretty serious firearm and he shot three people. This

1813
01:49:54,920 --> 01:49:59,640
Speaker 1: puts us immediately into a federal jurisdiction land. Um. He

1814
01:50:00,040 --> 01:50:02,400
Speaker 1: did this in the context of an uprising for racial

1815
01:50:02,479 --> 01:50:05,559
Speaker 1: justice that has been characterized by the fact that those

1816
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:08,680
Speaker 1: rising up on the side of racial justice have been

1817
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:12,760
Speaker 1: subject to intense repression by the federal government. D o

1818
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:16,640
Speaker 1: J has shown themselves to be fire breathingly enthusiastic of

1819
01:50:16,760 --> 01:50:22,439
Speaker 1: opicizing their jurisdiction over heavy offenses based on totally tenuous

1820
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:27,760
Speaker 1: grounds um for people on the left or who are

1821
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:31,120
Speaker 1: perceived to be on the left. UM. D o J

1822
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:35,599
Speaker 1: has asserted jurisdiction in order to prosecute people for um,

1823
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:40,479
Speaker 1: absolutely trivial but politically motivated offenses that would be left

1824
01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:46,120
Speaker 1: to the state to prosecute absent the politics of the accused. UM.

1825
01:50:46,240 --> 01:50:50,559
Speaker 1: They have a certain federal jurisdiction on really flimsy basis,

1826
01:50:50,680 --> 01:50:55,799
Speaker 1: like that a local police building or vehicle um, belongs

1827
01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:58,719
Speaker 1: to a department that has received federal funding, so property

1828
01:50:58,800 --> 01:51:02,599
Speaker 1: damage against it comes a federal offense. One thing they're

1829
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:05,280
Speaker 1: doing that is unusual is the federal government is as

1830
01:51:05,320 --> 01:51:09,559
Speaker 1: certain concurrent jurisdiction to prosecute offenses. So I know there's

1831
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:15,560
Speaker 1: someone in Courtland who is simultaneously being prosecuted by MULTNOMA

1832
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:21,200
Speaker 1: and also the federal government UM for allegedly throwing some

1833
01:51:21,280 --> 01:51:26,600
Speaker 1: accelerant on a police building. UM. Right, So it is

1834
01:51:26,720 --> 01:51:31,599
Speaker 1: very curious that written House who quite clearly did something

1835
01:51:31,640 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 1: that would you know fall under federal jurisdiction is not

1836
01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:39,840
Speaker 1: being federally charged, and it matters a lot for how

1837
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:45,280
Speaker 1: the case proceeds, UM, because the way that federal prosecutions

1838
01:51:45,360 --> 01:51:52,240
Speaker 1: operate is that the Feds will typically stack these indictments

1839
01:51:52,600 --> 01:51:56,559
Speaker 1: UM in a way that really puts tremendous pressure on

1840
01:51:56,640 --> 01:52:00,320
Speaker 1: them to plead guilty UM, which is not typicly the

1841
01:52:00,360 --> 01:52:03,040
Speaker 1: case or it doesn't happen in the same way in

1842
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:08,080
Speaker 1: a state prosecution. So UM, you have these staffed indictments

1843
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:13,360
Speaker 1: with multiple, multiple counts ranging you know, all all kinds

1844
01:52:13,400 --> 01:52:17,800
Speaker 1: of conduct UM, often involving you know, a conspiracy, which

1845
01:52:17,840 --> 01:52:20,960
Speaker 1: can be very very easy to prove UM, and a

1846
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:23,960
Speaker 1: guilty finding on any of those counts could be like

1847
01:52:24,000 --> 01:52:27,160
Speaker 1: a mandatory minimum of five to ten years. And then

1848
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:30,280
Speaker 1: if you're looking at, um, you know, a guilty on

1849
01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:33,880
Speaker 1: more than one or all of those counts, you're looking

1850
01:52:33,920 --> 01:52:38,680
Speaker 1: at a sentence potentially concurrent sentences that are tantamount to

1851
01:52:38,760 --> 01:52:44,240
Speaker 1: dying in prison. Right. And so this creates tremendous pressure

1852
01:52:44,320 --> 01:52:48,720
Speaker 1: on federal defendants to negotiate a pre trial disposition to

1853
01:52:48,760 --> 01:52:53,000
Speaker 1: take a guilty plea UM. So again, Kyle Writtenhouse crosses

1854
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:56,680
Speaker 1: state lines with this firearm which gets used in the

1855
01:52:56,840 --> 01:52:59,880
Speaker 1: in the commission of an act of violence. And I

1856
01:53:00,080 --> 01:53:03,960
Speaker 1: feel extremely confident that any federal prosecutor could come up

1857
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:07,760
Speaker 1: with a stack of counts against him within about ten

1858
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:14,920
Speaker 1: minutes without breaking a sweat um. But you know, so

1859
01:53:15,160 --> 01:53:17,400
Speaker 1: you know, if you think about him being in that position,

1860
01:53:18,880 --> 01:53:21,760
Speaker 1: you think through, Okay, if I go to trial, what

1861
01:53:22,000 --> 01:53:27,080
Speaker 1: is what are likely outcomes if Kyle Rittenhouse went to

1862
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:32,240
Speaker 1: trial federally, and even if he prevailed on a self

1863
01:53:32,479 --> 01:53:36,920
Speaker 1: defense right, which which could happen if you were found

1864
01:53:36,960 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 1: guilty on one or more of the lesser charges, he

1865
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 1: would still be looking at really really serious time. Right.

1866
01:53:45,680 --> 01:53:49,679
Speaker 1: But that's not where we are, right, Um, we are

1867
01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:53,280
Speaker 1: in a really weird place where like in a federal context,

1868
01:53:54,040 --> 01:53:59,479
Speaker 1: we wouldn't even be like talking about evidentiary rulings because uh,

1869
01:53:59,520 --> 01:54:03,439
Speaker 1: he would almost certainly not be going to trial, right

1870
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:09,439
Speaker 1: or you know, if he had a reasonable lawyer, he

1871
01:54:09,439 --> 01:54:12,800
Speaker 1: would probably be negotiating a plea. I'm curious, what do

1872
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:14,920
Speaker 1: you think about because one argument I've heard, and I'm

1873
01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:17,800
Speaker 1: certainly in no position to evaluate this personally, is that

1874
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:21,280
Speaker 1: if federal charges had been placed on him, you know,

1875
01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:26,760
Speaker 1: when the crime Trump would have pardoned him. Um, I

1876
01:54:26,800 --> 01:54:29,400
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, Like I've heard people argue that that, like, well,

1877
01:54:29,400 --> 01:54:31,599
Speaker 1: at least with the state charges, he can't be pardoned

1878
01:54:31,600 --> 01:54:34,200
Speaker 1: by President Trump. Like, I'm in no position to really

1879
01:54:34,200 --> 01:54:37,480
Speaker 1: evaluate that, but I'm curious what you think about that. Hey,

1880
01:54:37,520 --> 01:54:42,640
Speaker 1: honestly can't even yeah, speculate about what might have happened.

1881
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:46,400
Speaker 1: That is very interesting. I do think that if if

1882
01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:48,480
Speaker 1: d o j wanted to charge him at this point,

1883
01:54:48,560 --> 01:54:54,919
Speaker 1: I mean not but like there, I think wasn't opening

1884
01:54:55,920 --> 01:55:00,200
Speaker 1: for that to happen after Trump left. Expect there is

1885
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:03,000
Speaker 1: a very interesting foy A request to be made to

1886
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:06,760
Speaker 1: d o j UH to see what kind of memo

1887
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:09,760
Speaker 1: was circulated about whether or not they were going to

1888
01:55:10,400 --> 01:55:13,880
Speaker 1: pick this one up. They clearly declined to prosecute Um.

1889
01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:17,960
Speaker 1: I the only thing that I could come up with,

1890
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:20,760
Speaker 1: to be honest, and I looked and did not really

1891
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:24,720
Speaker 1: see any meaningful discussion of this, of their decision not

1892
01:55:24,800 --> 01:55:30,040
Speaker 1: to prosecute Um. The only thing that occurred to me

1893
01:55:30,120 --> 01:55:32,520
Speaker 1: is that they might have been reluctant to a set

1894
01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:37,640
Speaker 1: jurisdiction over a minor, but they can prosecute anyone over

1895
01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:40,080
Speaker 1: the age of fifteen as an adult if they engage

1896
01:55:40,080 --> 01:55:42,440
Speaker 1: in violent crimes, or if they are alleged to have

1897
01:55:42,480 --> 01:55:46,720
Speaker 1: engaged in violent crimes. So that's not it wouldn't entirely

1898
01:55:46,800 --> 01:55:51,800
Speaker 1: undermine their ability to do so. UM. So you know,

1899
01:55:51,920 --> 01:55:56,560
Speaker 1: for whatever, you know, for whatever reason, they didn't, I

1900
01:55:56,600 --> 01:55:59,360
Speaker 1: think it is worth noting. I think it is, as

1901
01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:03,600
Speaker 1: I said, very curious. UM. And it's particularly curious in

1902
01:56:03,720 --> 01:56:06,280
Speaker 1: light of the intense federal repression that has been faced

1903
01:56:06,360 --> 01:56:11,920
Speaker 1: by people perceived to be on the left, you know. So,

1904
01:56:12,080 --> 01:56:14,400
Speaker 1: like again, I want to be very clear, I don't

1905
01:56:14,880 --> 01:56:18,760
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that I want him to be federally prosecuted. UM.

1906
01:56:19,160 --> 01:56:23,120
Speaker 1: I don't. Particularly I'm not interested in arguing for more

1907
01:56:23,120 --> 01:56:27,600
Speaker 1: prosecutions or for making the state the arbiter of political

1908
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:32,400
Speaker 1: righteousness or um, giving the state more enforcement power or

1909
01:56:32,480 --> 01:56:38,360
Speaker 1: more resources. Um. You know. But you know, and look

1910
01:56:38,360 --> 01:56:43,400
Speaker 1: at no shade to Kenosha, Wisconsin. All right, But UM,

1911
01:56:43,440 --> 01:56:48,840
Speaker 1: one of the things that the UH federal prosecutors are

1912
01:56:48,920 --> 01:56:55,080
Speaker 1: really have a lot of experience doing is digital forensic investigations,

1913
01:56:56,080 --> 01:57:01,360
Speaker 1: and UH in this case, one of the sort of

1914
01:57:01,640 --> 01:57:06,520
Speaker 1: critical questions is did he have specific intent to go

1915
01:57:06,600 --> 01:57:11,040
Speaker 1: across state lines and engage in violence. And I suspect

1916
01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 1: that if you were to access all of his texts

1917
01:57:14,120 --> 01:57:20,240
Speaker 1: and metadata and social media posts, that you could probably

1918
01:57:20,360 --> 01:57:24,400
Speaker 1: find evidence of that specific intent. And I think that

1919
01:57:24,440 --> 01:57:27,840
Speaker 1: the federal government is probably better positioned to do that

1920
01:57:28,320 --> 01:57:35,880
Speaker 1: than the prosecutors uh in Kenosha, and they decided not to, right, so,

1921
01:57:36,480 --> 01:57:41,880
Speaker 1: you know, and that is exactly the kind of investigation

1922
01:57:41,920 --> 01:57:45,120
Speaker 1: that they mounted against Daniel Baker, who justs a the

1923
01:57:45,240 --> 01:57:48,120
Speaker 1: yoga teacher in Tallahassee, who just got three and a

1924
01:57:48,200 --> 01:57:54,000
Speaker 1: half years for posting vague, sort of incoherent, mutually contradictory,

1925
01:57:55,280 --> 01:58:00,040
Speaker 1: kind of not at all frightening. Yeah, it's not I

1926
01:58:00,040 --> 01:58:05,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't be threats, but I hesitate to to that. You know,

1927
01:58:05,280 --> 01:58:08,280
Speaker 1: he posted some stuff on social media and and now

1928
01:58:08,320 --> 01:58:13,720
Speaker 1: he's going to do. Yeah, my attitude on the nature

1929
01:58:13,720 --> 01:58:16,600
Speaker 1: of what he posts that like, if prior to his prosecution,

1930
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:18,720
Speaker 1: you had brought that post, but to me, I said, well,

1931
01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:22,040
Speaker 1: probably not a great idea to post. But also literally

1932
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:25,240
Speaker 1: every week a right winger in the Portland area posts

1933
01:58:25,280 --> 01:58:29,120
Speaker 1: something significantly more actual. Right now, Chandler pappas currently being

1934
01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:32,120
Speaker 1: charged with assaulting six police officers in the state capital

1935
01:58:32,160 --> 01:58:35,760
Speaker 1: and Salem just announced that he's doing armed training as

1936
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:41,520
Speaker 1: a convicted felon outside of Portland's uh later this November. Um,

1937
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:44,800
Speaker 1: which if he's if he touches a firearm, he should

1938
01:58:44,840 --> 01:58:46,760
Speaker 1: go away, Like based on the letter of the law,

1939
01:58:46,840 --> 01:58:48,760
Speaker 1: he should go to prison for years. Like that's the

1940
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:51,400
Speaker 1: way the law is written. Nothing's going to happen to him.

1941
01:58:51,400 --> 01:58:52,960
Speaker 1: He's going to get to train people with guns and

1942
01:58:52,960 --> 01:58:55,640
Speaker 1: continue to carry guns, and it's it's fine for him.

1943
01:58:56,040 --> 01:59:02,920
Speaker 1: Um anyway, whatever, I'm sorry. I guess your your listeners

1944
01:59:02,960 --> 01:59:09,400
Speaker 1: can't see that. I have my head. Um, yeah, I mean, look,

1945
01:59:09,400 --> 01:59:14,160
Speaker 1: what Daniel Baker did was certainly ill advised, if it

1946
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:17,840
Speaker 1: would characterize I have clients who have been visited by

1947
01:59:17,880 --> 01:59:20,120
Speaker 1: the Secret Service or have been visited by the FBI

1948
01:59:20,360 --> 01:59:23,240
Speaker 1: for saying stuff that when they call me and they're like, well,

1949
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:25,600
Speaker 1: I just said this, and I'm like, yeah, I know

1950
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:28,880
Speaker 1: that you're not gonna actually do that, but maybe don't

1951
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:33,960
Speaker 1: you know it's it's not it's ill advised, but it's

1952
01:59:34,000 --> 01:59:37,600
Speaker 1: protected by the very First Amendment more or less. And

1953
01:59:38,200 --> 01:59:42,800
Speaker 1: you know I've said this before. I don't think the

1954
01:59:43,040 --> 01:59:50,120
Speaker 1: solution to two um being surveilled on social media is

1955
01:59:50,160 --> 01:59:53,040
Speaker 1: self censorship. I think it is courage, but I also

1956
01:59:53,080 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 1: think that discretion is the better part of ball or

1957
01:59:56,080 --> 02:00:01,840
Speaker 1: so yes, pick your battles and maybe, yeah, understand that

1958
02:00:01,920 --> 02:00:05,640
Speaker 1: it's not fair, you know. Yeah, and also like what

1959
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:09,560
Speaker 1: do you gain by you know, being bumsteous on the internet.

1960
02:00:10,760 --> 02:00:12,520
Speaker 1: It's one of those things where, yeah, if that guy

1961
02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:16,280
Speaker 1: had had a high dollar lawyer, Um, if he if

1962
02:00:16,280 --> 02:00:18,680
Speaker 1: he'd been a rich person, yeah, maybe he would have

1963
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:22,400
Speaker 1: gotten away with it. Um, who knows, but like he

1964
02:00:22,680 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 1: it's it's he certainly would have gotten No. I can

1965
02:00:24,840 --> 02:00:26,440
Speaker 1: certainly say he would have gotten away with it if

1966
02:00:26,440 --> 02:00:28,280
Speaker 1: he'd been a right winger, because a bunch of them

1967
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:33,160
Speaker 1: do every single day. Um. I can't make any speculation

1968
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:36,200
Speaker 1: about that particular case, but I can say that the

1969
02:00:36,240 --> 02:00:39,640
Speaker 1: people who are being surveilled intensely and targeted for that

1970
02:00:39,720 --> 02:00:43,240
Speaker 1: kind of repression are not the people on the right. Um.

1971
02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:45,600
Speaker 1: The people on the right are able to make those

1972
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:49,240
Speaker 1: kinds of statements and not be particularly taken seriously even

1973
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:52,280
Speaker 1: when they should be. And people on the left are

1974
02:00:52,280 --> 02:00:57,200
Speaker 1: presumed to be you know, Antifa super soldiers. Um. So

1975
02:00:57,520 --> 02:01:02,560
Speaker 1: you know, I think the decision not to assert federal

1976
02:01:02,600 --> 02:01:06,640
Speaker 1: jurisdiction in the written House case is interesting. It is

1977
02:01:06,800 --> 02:01:12,000
Speaker 1: a noteworthy, really curious about what was going on there. UM,

1978
02:01:12,040 --> 02:01:14,640
Speaker 1: and it has had a sort of cascade of effects,

1979
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:21,520
Speaker 1: including UM. I doubt that the forensic digital investigation was

1980
02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:24,280
Speaker 1: as good as it would have been had it been

1981
02:01:24,280 --> 02:01:28,560
Speaker 1: federal UH. And I doubt that the I mean, he's

1982
02:01:28,600 --> 02:01:31,840
Speaker 1: facing multiple charges, but I don't think that he would

1983
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:34,560
Speaker 1: have been as likely to go to trial had he

1984
02:01:34,640 --> 02:01:38,360
Speaker 1: been federally charged. UM. So again, I don't you know,

1985
02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:43,720
Speaker 1: this is not an argument for more federal prosecution. But

1986
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:47,040
Speaker 1: like I think the breathless outrage that we're seeing in

1987
02:01:47,560 --> 02:01:52,720
Speaker 1: you know these headlines UM, where people are correctly identifying

1988
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:56,560
Speaker 1: the hypocrisy of the criminal legal system. UM. I think

1989
02:01:56,600 --> 02:02:00,200
Speaker 1: it's sort of an exercise in point missing UM. You know,

1990
02:02:00,280 --> 02:02:05,720
Speaker 1: this prosecution UM, like many of the prosecutions that we see,

1991
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:09,960
Speaker 1: or the prosecutions that don't happen at all, UM, that

1992
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:14,560
Speaker 1: involve members of the dominant class or people who uphold

1993
02:02:15,120 --> 02:02:20,880
Speaker 1: the values of the dominant classes. UM, is sort of

1994
02:02:20,920 --> 02:02:25,480
Speaker 1: proof a concept that it's possible to effectively allocate the

1995
02:02:25,520 --> 02:02:29,760
Speaker 1: burden of proof to the prosecution. It's possible not to

1996
02:02:29,880 --> 02:02:34,080
Speaker 1: go super hard on people and punish them for exercising

1997
02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:39,320
Speaker 1: their trial, right. Um. Right, I mean it's it's possible

1998
02:02:40,520 --> 02:02:47,760
Speaker 1: two treat all people accused of offenses in this way. UM,

1999
02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:51,720
Speaker 1: and I would much rather. I mean, obviously, my ultimate

2000
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:55,680
Speaker 1: goal is to uh dismantle the entire system, you know.

2001
02:02:55,840 --> 02:03:00,560
Speaker 1: But but in the meantime, I don't think what we

2002
02:03:00,600 --> 02:03:03,040
Speaker 1: need is more vicious prosecution of the right. I think

2003
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:09,120
Speaker 1: we need consistent and commensurate prosecution or lack of prosecution.

2004
02:03:09,720 --> 02:03:14,839
Speaker 1: We need to you know, Uh, I think that seeing

2005
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:17,720
Speaker 1: the way that the right is treated should be evidence

2006
02:03:18,040 --> 02:03:23,880
Speaker 1: for an argument for the possibility of, um treating all

2007
02:03:23,960 --> 02:03:29,120
Speaker 1: people with more leniency rather than you know, intense the

2008
02:03:29,120 --> 02:03:33,440
Speaker 1: intense federal repression that we are facing and have been facing,

2009
02:03:34,080 --> 02:03:41,600
Speaker 1: you know since the Palmer rates. Um. So yeah, yeah,

2010
02:03:41,240 --> 02:03:46,160
Speaker 1: ah um. Well, that uh is the stuff I wanted

2011
02:03:46,200 --> 02:03:51,920
Speaker 1: to ask about. Is there anything else? Um? I mean sure,

2012
02:03:52,160 --> 02:03:58,200
Speaker 1: I deitely go off on liberals somewhere, please, UM. I

2013
02:03:58,200 --> 02:04:01,720
Speaker 1: mean Garrison is a huge and of liberals. He's got

2014
02:04:01,760 --> 02:04:05,280
Speaker 1: actually a full back tack two of Barack Obama and

2015
02:04:05,320 --> 02:04:08,920
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton. But they're they're in the volleyball scene from

2016
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:11,840
Speaker 1: top Gun. Um. It's an incredible tattoo. He did it

2017
02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:16,000
Speaker 1: all freehand on his own back. Amazing. Um, this is

2018
02:04:16,040 --> 02:04:18,480
Speaker 1: like the garretson. I hope I don't receive any stones.

2019
02:04:19,480 --> 02:04:22,640
Speaker 1: I hope I don't get any awful fan art. Now, someone,

2020
02:04:22,800 --> 02:04:26,080
Speaker 1: someone do it? Come on, come on, photoshop Garrison's head

2021
02:04:26,200 --> 02:04:30,600
Speaker 1: onto onto Roger Stone's back and the photoshop Nixon's head

2022
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:33,000
Speaker 1: out and the volleyball scene from Top Gun with Bill

2023
02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:36,520
Speaker 1: Clinton and Barack Obama. Do it? Do it? Someone's kind

2024
02:04:36,520 --> 02:04:40,000
Speaker 1: of do it is definitely going to do it. This

2025
02:04:40,160 --> 02:04:42,120
Speaker 1: is you consume me for this, and you'd be right

2026
02:04:42,160 --> 02:04:46,040
Speaker 1: to do so. Um. But let's get back to and

2027
02:04:46,040 --> 02:04:51,320
Speaker 1: I might represent you the trial of the Trial of

2028
02:04:51,320 --> 02:04:54,880
Speaker 1: the century. Yeah, that sounds great. I think this is

2029
02:04:55,120 --> 02:04:58,360
Speaker 1: a trend that we see with people who are not

2030
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:03,720
Speaker 1: necessarily focused on looking at the ways that the law

2031
02:05:04,320 --> 02:05:08,480
Speaker 1: is always going to be used first and worst against

2032
02:05:08,520 --> 02:05:13,720
Speaker 1: the already most vulnerable. Right, So we've seen things like, Um,

2033
02:05:13,760 --> 02:05:18,120
Speaker 1: I think there's just this very well documented liberal impulse

2034
02:05:18,320 --> 02:05:21,800
Speaker 1: and I think it's very well intentioned, but it's very dangerous,

2035
02:05:22,400 --> 02:05:25,400
Speaker 1: um to do things to like assume that the system

2036
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:29,200
Speaker 1: somehow works um or should work, and that it just

2037
02:05:29,280 --> 02:05:33,360
Speaker 1: needs to be like followed more closely, and that if

2038
02:05:33,400 --> 02:05:38,120
Speaker 1: we push for things like, um, if we like, use

2039
02:05:38,240 --> 02:05:41,640
Speaker 1: the law to constrain things that I would agree are

2040
02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:48,120
Speaker 1: the most harmful um, excesses of bigotry, right, Um, that

2041
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:53,880
Speaker 1: the law would be a good tool for UM for

2042
02:05:53,960 --> 02:06:00,560
Speaker 1: addressing violence and bigotry. The law does not. That is

2043
02:06:00,600 --> 02:06:04,400
Speaker 1: not what kind of tool the law is. UM. When

2044
02:06:04,400 --> 02:06:08,320
Speaker 1: we push for things like laws regulating political speech, including

2045
02:06:08,480 --> 02:06:13,720
Speaker 1: so called hate speech, laws regulating what are referred to

2046
02:06:13,720 --> 02:06:18,040
Speaker 1: as hate crimes, laws UM, regulating who can carry a

2047
02:06:18,080 --> 02:06:22,640
Speaker 1: firearm and what they might look like. UM, you know,

2048
02:06:22,880 --> 02:06:27,320
Speaker 1: pushes for limiting the places or circumstances under which you

2049
02:06:27,360 --> 02:06:33,200
Speaker 1: could protest UM or demonstrate, right um, which you know,

2050
02:06:33,240 --> 02:06:37,040
Speaker 1: which was done. Um. There there was a real big

2051
02:06:37,400 --> 02:06:43,800
Speaker 1: UM push to UH forbid UH anti choice activists from

2052
02:06:43,840 --> 02:06:49,000
Speaker 1: protesting outside of UM clinics, right, which I understand, Right,

2053
02:06:49,040 --> 02:06:52,200
Speaker 1: But what actually is the upshot of doing that? When

2054
02:06:52,200 --> 02:06:55,240
Speaker 1: we see this kind of push to use the law

2055
02:06:55,360 --> 02:06:58,960
Speaker 1: as a tool to enforce a particular political agenda, it

2056
02:06:59,120 --> 02:07:03,000
Speaker 1: is not you know, it's it's just a very ill

2057
02:07:03,080 --> 02:07:07,640
Speaker 1: conceived way to approach this, because the law is never

2058
02:07:07,720 --> 02:07:11,920
Speaker 1: going to protect the most vulnerable UM. Well, these structures

2059
02:07:11,920 --> 02:07:15,920
Speaker 1: of power that up remain in place, and so you know,

2060
02:07:16,080 --> 02:07:18,440
Speaker 1: it's just always going to be leveraged against the people

2061
02:07:18,480 --> 02:07:22,080
Speaker 1: who have the least amount of power, and and so

2062
02:07:22,200 --> 02:07:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, this this sort of response to the written

2063
02:07:24,160 --> 02:07:28,520
Speaker 1: House stuff, to me, is just essentially a recuperation of

2064
02:07:28,680 --> 02:07:31,920
Speaker 1: that impulse. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a little like

2065
02:07:31,960 --> 02:07:34,440
Speaker 1: that old I think the joke has attributed to Gandhi.

2066
02:07:34,440 --> 02:07:36,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if Gandhi actually said it, but like

2067
02:07:36,320 --> 02:07:38,720
Speaker 1: he was asked, what do you think of Christian civilization?

2068
02:07:38,800 --> 02:07:40,560
Speaker 1: And he said, I think it would be a wonderful idea.

2069
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:42,400
Speaker 1: What do you think of the fair and equal rule

2070
02:07:42,480 --> 02:07:49,880
Speaker 1: of law? Sounds nice? Um, but it was neither mars Yeah,

2071
02:07:49,880 --> 02:07:53,400
Speaker 1: one of the two. Um yeah, maybe both, maybe both.

2072
02:07:53,960 --> 02:07:56,480
Speaker 1: I don't know that we ever saw them together. Um,

2073
02:07:57,280 --> 02:08:01,640
Speaker 1: all right, so I don't know. I I it's it's

2074
02:08:01,680 --> 02:08:04,720
Speaker 1: obviously it's too early to It's one of those things

2075
02:08:04,800 --> 02:08:06,800
Speaker 1: where all of the complaining about the unfairness of the

2076
02:08:06,800 --> 02:08:10,520
Speaker 1: trial of written House winds up getting um rammed into

2077
02:08:10,560 --> 02:08:16,080
Speaker 1: a legal wall. Metaphorically, Uh may seem silly in content

2078
02:08:16,280 --> 02:08:20,160
Speaker 1: or in in retrospect, or he may this may be

2079
02:08:20,280 --> 02:08:22,720
Speaker 1: the thing that ignites a new wave of vigilante showing

2080
02:08:22,760 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 1: up at protests with guns, but it seems to be untouchable.

2081
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:28,000
Speaker 1: Like really, the big fears that they don't set a

2082
02:08:28,040 --> 02:08:31,080
Speaker 1: precedent that will allow other people to use quote unquote

2083
02:08:31,120 --> 02:08:34,840
Speaker 1: self defense claims and effort just to kill black activists,

2084
02:08:34,880 --> 02:08:37,520
Speaker 1: to kill activists on the left, to kill people wearing

2085
02:08:37,520 --> 02:08:40,520
Speaker 1: you know, black hoodies and bandanas r. Because that's the

2086
02:08:40,600 --> 02:08:43,880
Speaker 1: that's the big fear out of this situation. Because my

2087
02:08:43,880 --> 02:08:46,600
Speaker 1: my expectation is that if written House gets off um

2088
02:08:46,920 --> 02:08:50,000
Speaker 1: or even just gets very minor, like if it's if

2089
02:08:50,000 --> 02:08:52,720
Speaker 1: he's if he's out of jail quickly within about six months,

2090
02:08:52,720 --> 02:08:55,720
Speaker 1: he's going to be a millionaire. Um. Absolutely, Yeah, that's

2091
02:08:55,760 --> 02:08:58,560
Speaker 1: the way the right wing works. I would gently ask

2092
02:08:58,640 --> 02:09:00,839
Speaker 1: you to think about what happened as if he doesn't

2093
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:07,080
Speaker 1: because he's convicted, we are going to see a deepening

2094
02:09:07,280 --> 02:09:11,240
Speaker 1: of the oppression that is faced by everyone on the

2095
02:09:11,360 --> 02:09:16,960
Speaker 1: left as well. We lose either way. Yeah, is on

2096
02:09:17,040 --> 02:09:22,040
Speaker 1: the table. There's no winning, I guess, I think, I

2097
02:09:22,040 --> 02:09:24,120
Speaker 1: mean part of it, I guess depends on what he's

2098
02:09:24,160 --> 02:09:29,720
Speaker 1: convicted for. Um, because some of the stuff has I

2099
02:09:30,000 --> 02:09:32,200
Speaker 1: would it seems to me some of the things he's

2100
02:09:32,240 --> 02:09:36,400
Speaker 1: charged with. If convicted, there's more potential negative implications across

2101
02:09:36,440 --> 02:09:40,880
Speaker 1: the political aisle than than with others. Um Like if

2102
02:09:41,080 --> 02:09:45,240
Speaker 1: if it's ruled murder, I don't know, that feels less worried.

2103
02:09:45,360 --> 02:09:48,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I have some concerns about the crossing state

2104
02:09:48,200 --> 02:09:50,480
Speaker 1: line stuff. I don't know. I mean, none of it's

2105
02:09:51,280 --> 02:09:53,160
Speaker 1: none of it's good. I guess where I am is.

2106
02:09:53,560 --> 02:09:59,280
Speaker 1: I remember vividly how much the situation on the ground

2107
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:02,800
Speaker 1: chain after Kenosha, just in in in Portland even I mean,

2108
02:10:02,840 --> 02:10:04,840
Speaker 1: Garrison can can back me up with that. They were

2109
02:10:04,840 --> 02:10:07,680
Speaker 1: there for that too, Like it was a It was

2110
02:10:07,720 --> 02:10:11,440
Speaker 1: a significant shift in the feeling of deadliness, you know,

2111
02:10:11,480 --> 02:10:15,320
Speaker 1: whenever there was a right wing left wing confrontation. Um

2112
02:10:15,480 --> 02:10:18,000
Speaker 1: and someone someone died a few days later, someone died

2113
02:10:18,040 --> 02:10:22,040
Speaker 1: a few days later in in a fucking gunfight. Um

2114
02:10:22,120 --> 02:10:27,160
Speaker 1: And I I don't know. I don't know, Moira, Uh,

2115
02:10:27,280 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't I don't want Rittenhouse to

2116
02:10:30,680 --> 02:10:33,960
Speaker 1: get off Scott free for shooting three people. You're absolutely right,

2117
02:10:34,160 --> 02:10:38,240
Speaker 1: there's no there's no winning with the legal system. The

2118
02:10:38,240 --> 02:10:40,400
Speaker 1: only way to win is not to play. The only

2119
02:10:40,400 --> 02:10:43,320
Speaker 1: way to win is not to play, So form your

2120
02:10:43,320 --> 02:10:50,240
Speaker 1: own breakaway civilization Ki and Gandhi Yeah uh and and

2121
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:55,920
Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard take to the Sea. Yes, yeah, always Look,

2122
02:10:56,000 --> 02:10:59,840
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think. Um, I'm not looking for

2123
02:11:00,040 --> 02:11:03,480
Speaker 1: him to prevail on the self defense and not like,

2124
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:05,320
Speaker 1: none of this is going to make me feel good.

2125
02:11:06,400 --> 02:11:11,280
Speaker 1: But I think that whether or not he is punished,

2126
02:11:12,280 --> 02:11:18,320
Speaker 1: whether or not he is convicted, there will be negative recussions,

2127
02:11:18,920 --> 02:11:22,520
Speaker 1: and all of those negative consequences will redound to the

2128
02:11:22,560 --> 02:11:26,760
Speaker 1: detriment of the people who are already facing the most

2129
02:11:26,800 --> 02:11:31,960
Speaker 1: intense federal repression. Yeah that is I mean, in fairness, like,

2130
02:11:32,240 --> 02:11:34,880
Speaker 1: this is the case of a child who killed two

2131
02:11:34,920 --> 02:11:38,240
Speaker 1: people and is now we are determining whether or not

2132
02:11:38,320 --> 02:11:40,760
Speaker 1: this child will spend the rest of their life in

2133
02:11:40,800 --> 02:11:44,520
Speaker 1: a cell. None of this should make anyone feel good

2134
02:11:44,560 --> 02:11:51,440
Speaker 1: no matter what happens. It's a thoroughly bleak story. Yeah. Yeah,

2135
02:11:50,360 --> 02:11:53,280
Speaker 1: it's because this kid is never going to have a

2136
02:11:53,400 --> 02:11:55,600
Speaker 1: chance to grow up and be like, oh I was

2137
02:11:55,840 --> 02:12:00,240
Speaker 1: being like a horrible I don't know the level be

2138
02:12:00,280 --> 02:12:03,000
Speaker 1: able to adjust to anything else rather than being this

2139
02:12:03,240 --> 02:12:07,040
Speaker 1: person that like culturally has been created right there. They

2140
02:12:07,040 --> 02:12:10,000
Speaker 1: are like a cultural thing, They're an item, they're not

2141
02:12:10,040 --> 02:12:13,080
Speaker 1: a person anymore, and they'll never be able to escape that. Yeah.

2142
02:12:13,160 --> 02:12:16,000
Speaker 1: I was a piece of ship when I was seventeen,

2143
02:12:16,080 --> 02:12:18,000
Speaker 1: and if I had had access to an a R

2144
02:12:18,120 --> 02:12:20,960
Speaker 1: fifteen and a chance to feel like a hero, I

2145
02:12:21,040 --> 02:12:23,680
Speaker 1: might have done something horrific too, And instead you were

2146
02:12:23,720 --> 02:12:29,960
Speaker 1: just doing sloppy steaks and it's fine and now it's fine. Um,

2147
02:12:30,040 --> 02:12:33,160
Speaker 1: have you watched? I think you should leave? Moira? I'm sorry,

2148
02:12:33,360 --> 02:12:36,000
Speaker 1: have you watched? I think you should leave? Moira? No?

2149
02:12:36,800 --> 02:12:42,560
Speaker 1: Oh it's good, it's good. Alright, I'll check it out. Um, um,

2150
02:12:42,960 --> 02:12:46,520
Speaker 1: I'll take a look. Yeah, I don't know. Um, well,

2151
02:12:47,440 --> 02:12:53,000
Speaker 1: thank you, Moira. Uh, this is always appreciated. Um, it's good.

2152
02:12:54,320 --> 02:12:57,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like, were you we've talked a bit

2153
02:12:57,960 --> 02:13:01,080
Speaker 1: about anarchism. How many? How much? How much of like

2154
02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:04,960
Speaker 1: your belief about the way the world ought to be

2155
02:13:05,120 --> 02:13:09,040
Speaker 1: and is came as a result of getting into the

2156
02:13:09,040 --> 02:13:13,680
Speaker 1: guts of the legal system. Do you mean did I

2157
02:13:13,760 --> 02:13:20,640
Speaker 1: become more devoted to anarchism and I went to law school. Um?

2158
02:13:20,680 --> 02:13:25,200
Speaker 1: I didn't become less devoted to it. But I remember

2159
02:13:25,240 --> 02:13:27,280
Speaker 1: when I was going to law school, people kept saying, oh,

2160
02:13:27,280 --> 02:13:29,680
Speaker 1: you're going to become really conservative and I was like,

2161
02:13:30,440 --> 02:13:35,240
Speaker 1: I don't think that's true. That seems seems fake. Uh.

2162
02:13:35,280 --> 02:13:39,520
Speaker 1: And in fact, I remember um being in my criminal

2163
02:13:39,560 --> 02:13:43,160
Speaker 1: procedure class and just thinking, how in the world can

2164
02:13:43,200 --> 02:13:49,480
Speaker 1: anyone at any law school read Miranda, which is a

2165
02:13:49,480 --> 02:13:57,080
Speaker 1: case where someone is, you know, just horrifically abused by

2166
02:13:57,160 --> 02:14:01,480
Speaker 1: police in order to extract a state in it. How

2167
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:05,200
Speaker 1: could anybody read this case and not come out of

2168
02:14:05,280 --> 02:14:10,760
Speaker 1: law school with a deep contempt for law enforcement. You know,

2169
02:14:10,840 --> 02:14:17,120
Speaker 1: I know that it happens. I don't know how always uplifting, Yeah,

2170
02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:21,040
Speaker 1: I mean it. It is. It's important to know, you know.

2171
02:14:21,200 --> 02:14:25,560
Speaker 1: I when I was when I was younger and poor, uh,

2172
02:14:25,600 --> 02:14:27,840
Speaker 1: and dealing with things like taxes, I would often go

2173
02:14:27,920 --> 02:14:31,160
Speaker 1: like years without paying them, and I would like ignore

2174
02:14:31,240 --> 02:14:34,080
Speaker 1: debts and bills until like like my student loans, until

2175
02:14:34,120 --> 02:14:36,320
Speaker 1: it became like a serious problem because I didn't want

2176
02:14:36,320 --> 02:14:37,720
Speaker 1: to look at it. I didn't even want to like

2177
02:14:38,320 --> 02:14:40,920
Speaker 1: look at the scale of the issue and grapple with it.

2178
02:14:40,960 --> 02:14:42,920
Speaker 1: I just wanted to run away from it. And when

2179
02:14:42,960 --> 02:14:47,760
Speaker 1: I actually like sat down and figured out my situation

2180
02:14:47,840 --> 02:14:51,560
Speaker 1: and like really came to understand like what what I

2181
02:14:51,600 --> 02:14:53,600
Speaker 1: needed to do in order to deal with those problems

2182
02:14:53,600 --> 02:14:56,080
Speaker 1: like it was stressful and it sucked, and it was

2183
02:14:56,280 --> 02:15:00,400
Speaker 1: fucking days of work, but getting understanding the scope of

2184
02:15:00,440 --> 02:15:03,720
Speaker 1: the problem I'd gotten myself into was a necessary step

2185
02:15:03,760 --> 02:15:07,360
Speaker 1: to like fixing the situation. And I think the same

2186
02:15:07,480 --> 02:15:10,800
Speaker 1: is true with like this kind of ship. It's not fun,

2187
02:15:11,080 --> 02:15:14,160
Speaker 1: nobody who is. I think a reasonable person like wants

2188
02:15:14,200 --> 02:15:18,400
Speaker 1: to dig into the US justice system and get into

2189
02:15:18,440 --> 02:15:21,240
Speaker 1: the guts of it because it's bleak as hell. But

2190
02:15:21,440 --> 02:15:24,760
Speaker 1: you need to because it's it's you can't escape it

2191
02:15:24,880 --> 02:15:27,480
Speaker 1: unless you flee the country and live in a place

2192
02:15:27,520 --> 02:15:34,840
Speaker 1: with no extradition treaties, UM or international waters. I feel

2193
02:15:34,840 --> 02:15:38,520
Speaker 1: like you're talking about a lot of the people you've profiled. Yeah,

2194
02:15:40,240 --> 02:15:46,800
Speaker 1: I mean Ecuador does sound nice. I'm sure it's lovely

2195
02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:51,320
Speaker 1: this time of year. Um. Yeah, I think you're right.

2196
02:15:51,480 --> 02:15:53,960
Speaker 1: You need to be able to have a sort of

2197
02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:58,120
Speaker 1: clear eyed assessment so that we can actively identify and

2198
02:15:58,240 --> 02:16:02,960
Speaker 1: effectively address the problems. Unfortunately, I think the problems are

2199
02:16:03,040 --> 02:16:09,760
Speaker 1: so um all encompassing that I don't know that there's

2200
02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:15,040
Speaker 1: I would venture to say that there is not a

2201
02:16:15,080 --> 02:16:21,920
Speaker 1: real totalizing solution that doesn't involve total abolition. Yeah, I

2202
02:16:22,160 --> 02:16:25,000
Speaker 1: agree with you. But in the meantime, I mean, I

2203
02:16:25,080 --> 02:16:27,680
Speaker 1: think there are there are things that we can do

2204
02:16:27,840 --> 02:16:35,680
Speaker 1: to to advocate for our clients, or as an individual,

2205
02:16:35,800 --> 02:16:37,840
Speaker 1: you can do to protect yourself. And that's why it

2206
02:16:37,879 --> 02:16:40,879
Speaker 1: is important to have some sort of working understanding, um,

2207
02:16:40,920 --> 02:16:44,480
Speaker 1: because you can keep yourself and the people around you

2208
02:16:44,520 --> 02:16:48,360
Speaker 1: at least somewhat safer if you do understand the beast um.

2209
02:16:48,480 --> 02:16:51,960
Speaker 1: Even though your goal is to is to destroy it. Uh,

2210
02:16:52,000 --> 02:16:54,720
Speaker 1: And that's I think the only reasonable goal when you

2211
02:16:54,720 --> 02:16:58,720
Speaker 1: really understand it, it's still behooves you to to understand it.

2212
02:16:58,760 --> 02:17:00,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the same with like it, the same

2213
02:17:00,440 --> 02:17:02,360
Speaker 1: with what what Garrison and I do with the fucking

2214
02:17:02,440 --> 02:17:05,039
Speaker 1: Nazi spending all this time and weird telegram channels like

2215
02:17:05,080 --> 02:17:07,879
Speaker 1: reading what they're trying to understand them, because you do

2216
02:17:08,000 --> 02:17:12,640
Speaker 1: need to understand them to effectively combat them. Well, it's

2217
02:17:12,680 --> 02:17:16,840
Speaker 1: not for the faint of heart. No, no, yeah, neither

2218
02:17:16,920 --> 02:17:20,520
Speaker 1: is what you do. UM. The messages is that we're

2219
02:17:20,520 --> 02:17:24,640
Speaker 1: all well adjusted and we're all great for that boat.

2220
02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:32,080
Speaker 1: Nobody secondary trauma. There's no secondary trauma in international waters Moire.

2221
02:17:32,160 --> 02:17:35,000
Speaker 1: I have that that that my my old friend l R.

2222
02:17:35,200 --> 02:17:38,320
Speaker 1: H told me that just you and the open sea

2223
02:17:38,680 --> 02:17:41,440
Speaker 1: and a bunch of twenty year old searching for gold

2224
02:17:41,480 --> 02:17:47,600
Speaker 1: that I buried in a past life, live in the dream. Yeah,

2225
02:17:48,200 --> 02:17:54,080
Speaker 1: he is both fascinating and terrifying. Yeah. UM just just

2226
02:17:54,160 --> 02:17:57,920
Speaker 1: like just like our legal system system. And that wraps

2227
02:17:58,000 --> 02:18:03,440
Speaker 1: up this episode that brings us around. UM, anything you

2228
02:18:03,440 --> 02:18:06,240
Speaker 1: want to plug any any place, maybe our listeners could

2229
02:18:06,280 --> 02:18:11,400
Speaker 1: could send donations that would help somebody who's themselves against

2230
02:18:11,400 --> 02:18:14,640
Speaker 1: a wall at the moment. Would certainly suggest that people

2231
02:18:14,640 --> 02:18:18,600
Speaker 1: look into whatever bail funds are local to them. There's

2232
02:18:18,640 --> 02:18:21,160
Speaker 1: one I know in New York called COVID Bailout NYC.

2233
02:18:22,000 --> 02:18:26,039
Speaker 1: That's um doing incredible work right now to get people

2234
02:18:26,040 --> 02:18:31,200
Speaker 1: off Rikers Island, which is having a humanitarian crisis of

2235
02:18:31,920 --> 02:18:36,800
Speaker 1: just unbelievable scope. UM. It sounds to me like the

2236
02:18:36,800 --> 02:18:39,680
Speaker 1: conditions on Rikers right now are at least as bad

2237
02:18:39,720 --> 02:18:45,400
Speaker 1: as the conditions that led to the Attica uprising. UM.

2238
02:18:45,480 --> 02:18:49,480
Speaker 1: So I would always, always UM direct people to give

2239
02:18:49,480 --> 02:18:52,720
Speaker 1: money to local bail funds. I also want to plug

2240
02:18:52,920 --> 02:18:57,960
Speaker 1: the National Lawyers Guild UH Anti Federal Repression or Federal

2241
02:18:58,000 --> 02:19:02,520
Speaker 1: Defense hotline, which is too one to six seven nine

2242
02:19:02,720 --> 02:19:06,400
Speaker 1: to eight one one two one to six seven nine

2243
02:19:06,400 --> 02:19:09,240
Speaker 1: to eight one one if you call that number, or

2244
02:19:09,440 --> 02:19:12,600
Speaker 1: you can call that number if you are having unwanted

2245
02:19:12,600 --> 02:19:15,960
Speaker 1: contact with federal agents, and you can be advised by

2246
02:19:16,000 --> 02:19:21,199
Speaker 1: an attorney who is me about your rights and responsibilities

2247
02:19:21,320 --> 02:19:23,959
Speaker 1: with respect to federal agents, and I will try to

2248
02:19:24,800 --> 02:19:28,240
Speaker 1: connect you with appropriate resources in your area. UM. This

2249
02:19:28,320 --> 02:19:30,400
Speaker 1: is not the hotline to call if you've been injured

2250
02:19:30,400 --> 02:19:33,039
Speaker 1: by a police officer. UM. This is the hotline to

2251
02:19:33,200 --> 02:19:38,279
Speaker 1: call if you have been visited by the FBI. UM,

2252
02:19:38,440 --> 02:19:42,600
Speaker 1: don't talk to cops. If you are contacted by law enforcement,

2253
02:19:42,720 --> 02:19:45,200
Speaker 1: say I am represented by counsel. Please leave your name

2254
02:19:45,200 --> 02:19:48,480
Speaker 1: and number and my lawyer will call you. UH. And

2255
02:19:48,560 --> 02:19:50,920
Speaker 1: remember that you cannot talk your way out of an arrest,

2256
02:19:51,000 --> 02:19:55,520
Speaker 1: but you can talk your way into a conviction. All

2257
02:19:55,560 --> 02:19:58,920
Speaker 1: great points, all great things to be aware of. UM.

2258
02:19:58,920 --> 02:20:01,400
Speaker 1: Speaking of great things to be aware of. Be aware

2259
02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:04,279
Speaker 1: that we'll be back tomorrow, unless this is a Friday,

2260
02:20:04,360 --> 02:20:06,520
Speaker 1: in which case we'll be back next week. From now

2261
02:20:06,640 --> 02:20:09,760
Speaker 1: until the heat death of the universe. Thank you so much, Laura,

2262
02:20:10,280 --> 02:20:20,080
Speaker 1: You're so welcome. Adoption of teens from foster care is

2263
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Speaker 1: a topic not enough people know about, and we're here

2264
02:20:22,480 --> 02:20:24,959
Speaker 1: to change that. I'm April Dinnuity, host of the new

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02:20:25,040 --> 02:20:29,400
Speaker 1: podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode

2266
02:20:29,440 --> 02:20:32,720
Speaker 1: brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the

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Speaker 1: families that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt

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Speaker 1: us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption,

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Speaker 1: presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the U.

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Speaker 1: S Department of Health, the Human Services Administration for Children

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Speaker 1: and Families, and the ACT Council. Make sure to check

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Speaker 1: out Drink Champs, your number one music podcast on the

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Speaker 1: d J E f N sat down with artists and

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Speaker 1: icon ya, which Vulture called one significant interviews. I literally

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2277
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Speaker 1: have to be the villain. But when I went and

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Speaker 1: sit back and watch the real leader. Check out drink

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Speaker 1: Champ's conversation with Yea and many more legendary artists each

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Speaker 1: and every Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Look for

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Speaker 1: your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.

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Speaker 1: with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles.

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2292
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Speaker 1: to it could happen Here a podcast about the continual

2293
02:22:03,879 --> 02:22:07,200
Speaker 1: state of bad things happening and how sometimes you can

2294
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Speaker 1: make them less bad or not happen. And today we're

2295
02:22:11,000 --> 02:22:13,680
Speaker 1: gonna I'm Christopher Wong, by the way, and today we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about Bosnia, a place where things went

2297
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Speaker 1: about as bad as they possibly can, and about how

2298
02:22:23,840 --> 02:22:29,720
Speaker 1: they're heading in very scary directions now. And with us

2299
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Speaker 1: to talk about this is Arnessa Kustra. Arnessa is a

2300
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Speaker 1: genocide survivor and a academic expert on genocides in general. Arnessa,

2301
02:22:39,440 --> 02:22:43,840
Speaker 1: how how are you doing? You know, I'm doing okay.

2302
02:22:43,959 --> 02:22:48,879
Speaker 1: I think all things considered, you know, being sort of

2303
02:22:48,920 --> 02:22:54,879
Speaker 1: bombarded on a daily basis with you know, possible threats,

2304
02:22:55,400 --> 02:22:58,640
Speaker 1: um and talks about you know, a new conflict war

2305
02:22:58,840 --> 02:23:01,560
Speaker 1: brewing in the Balkan. This is the thing. Not an

2306
02:23:01,560 --> 02:23:07,600
Speaker 1: easy thing to convent, definitely not. Yeah, but other than that,

2307
02:23:08,080 --> 02:23:12,800
Speaker 1: I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. I'm glad, I'm glad.

2308
02:23:12,800 --> 02:23:15,320
Speaker 1: I'm glad you could be here with me today. Because

2309
02:23:15,840 --> 02:23:19,280
Speaker 1: the Balkans extremely complicated place, which I guess his story

2310
02:23:19,320 --> 02:23:21,920
Speaker 1: of both places. But yeah, and so I guess that

2311
02:23:21,920 --> 02:23:25,240
Speaker 1: that's that's where I wanted to go with my first question,

2312
02:23:25,520 --> 02:23:30,959
Speaker 1: because reading about what's happening now, my first instinct was

2313
02:23:31,520 --> 02:23:34,080
Speaker 1: go back to the day and accords. But I'm actually

2314
02:23:34,120 --> 02:23:36,800
Speaker 1: not sure that that's that that's that's that's even the

2315
02:23:36,800 --> 02:23:39,000
Speaker 1: best place to start. And so I wanted I wanted to,

2316
02:23:40,080 --> 02:23:42,840
Speaker 1: I guess ask you if so, okay, so if if,

2317
02:23:42,879 --> 02:23:45,720
Speaker 1: if you're coming into looking at the Balkans for the

2318
02:23:45,760 --> 02:23:49,039
Speaker 1: first time and you're trying to understand what's going on, now,

2319
02:23:49,520 --> 02:23:51,160
Speaker 1: where do you think it is the best place to

2320
02:23:51,280 --> 02:23:57,560
Speaker 1: start on it? Because I think you know the best. Yeah,

2321
02:23:57,840 --> 02:24:03,560
Speaker 1: we're talking about so much history, honestly, but the thing is,

2322
02:24:03,800 --> 02:24:07,760
Speaker 1: let's you know, let's start with the death of Tito

2323
02:24:08,200 --> 02:24:11,720
Speaker 1: that's always a good place, I think, because that's really

2324
02:24:11,800 --> 02:24:16,200
Speaker 1: when things started to kind of shift in the Balkans

2325
02:24:16,240 --> 02:24:20,200
Speaker 1: and the former you know socialist udo Slavia was really

2326
02:24:20,840 --> 02:24:27,240
Speaker 1: once Tito died and his place became you know empty

2327
02:24:27,280 --> 02:24:31,600
Speaker 1: as this sort of unifying factor of all the various

2328
02:24:31,600 --> 02:24:36,240
Speaker 1: ethnicities and nationalities within Yugoslavia. You know, once he was gone,

2329
02:24:36,320 --> 02:24:39,920
Speaker 1: that sort of left this vacuum that needed to be filled.

2330
02:24:39,920 --> 02:24:45,480
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, instead of being filled by another socialist you know,

2331
02:24:45,640 --> 02:24:50,640
Speaker 1: pro equality, pro unity leader, it was filled with a

2332
02:24:50,879 --> 02:24:58,680
Speaker 1: nationalist um, which is kind of where we still are unfortunately. Um.

2333
02:24:58,760 --> 02:25:03,080
Speaker 1: You know, it started obviously with with little things I think,

2334
02:25:03,160 --> 02:25:09,280
Speaker 1: with little sort of conversations and and little subtle I

2335
02:25:09,320 --> 02:25:14,200
Speaker 1: guess you know, Ethno nationalist rhetorics, and it just kind

2336
02:25:14,240 --> 02:25:18,840
Speaker 1: of like grew and spiraled from there, and obviously, you know,

2337
02:25:18,959 --> 02:25:23,120
Speaker 1: that sort of thing led to Miloshevich and Kosovo giving

2338
02:25:23,240 --> 02:25:29,879
Speaker 1: his infamous speech, which kind of really gave that full

2339
02:25:29,959 --> 02:25:35,679
Speaker 1: fledged stamp on. Okay, yes, this is a ultra nationalists,

2340
02:25:35,800 --> 02:25:39,920
Speaker 1: you know, ethno nationalist president that we now have, UM,

2341
02:25:40,000 --> 02:25:45,160
Speaker 1: who's threatening war across the other ethnicities. What do we

2342
02:25:45,200 --> 02:25:49,000
Speaker 1: do next? Um? And at that point you know, that's

2343
02:25:49,000 --> 02:25:52,680
Speaker 1: when you sort of see the other countries start to secede,

2344
02:25:52,920 --> 02:25:56,879
Speaker 1: you know, Slovania and Croatia they're attacked by Serbia and

2345
02:25:56,879 --> 02:26:02,920
Speaker 1: then obviously eventually it goes down to Bosnia. Um and yeah,

2346
02:26:03,000 --> 02:26:05,440
Speaker 1: I mean it starts with the ethno nationalism as it

2347
02:26:05,520 --> 02:26:10,960
Speaker 1: always does. I think, um, you know, I don't think

2348
02:26:10,959 --> 02:26:16,560
Speaker 1: we're anything special in terms of having conflict with our neighbors.

2349
02:26:16,800 --> 02:26:21,160
Speaker 1: Look at France and England or in our or America

2350
02:26:21,200 --> 02:26:24,680
Speaker 1: and Mexico or anyone. Really it's just, you know, I

2351
02:26:24,680 --> 02:26:27,520
Speaker 1: think people make it sound as if we're special or

2352
02:26:27,680 --> 02:26:30,520
Speaker 1: we have these ancient hatreds, but you know that's not

2353
02:26:30,600 --> 02:26:33,400
Speaker 1: really true. It all comes down to the freaking politics

2354
02:26:33,480 --> 02:26:38,400
Speaker 1: and the leaders. And unfortunately, you know, Miloshevitch was removed,

2355
02:26:38,959 --> 02:26:48,120
Speaker 1: but is policy is um beliefs continue to kind of

2356
02:26:48,160 --> 02:26:52,280
Speaker 1: stick around, you know, I think, uh, you know, people

2357
02:26:53,280 --> 02:26:57,200
Speaker 1: think of people like Miloshevich and adavankata Ji, who were

2358
02:26:57,560 --> 02:27:01,960
Speaker 1: you know, genocidal war criminals, as a thing of the past.

2359
02:27:02,120 --> 02:27:05,080
Speaker 1: But really you look at you know, the Serbian president

2360
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:11,959
Speaker 1: Um or the Repubska president Middle Thought, and there are

2361
02:27:12,040 --> 02:27:17,800
Speaker 1: really just the continuation of katach and relationship wch Um.

2362
02:27:17,879 --> 02:27:23,360
Speaker 1: So nothing you know, has fundamentally changed since Tito died,

2363
02:27:23,400 --> 02:27:27,240
Speaker 1: except you know, we got some new agreements, we got

2364
02:27:27,240 --> 02:27:31,320
Speaker 1: some new territories, some new ethnic lients drawn up, and

2365
02:27:31,760 --> 02:27:34,959
Speaker 1: not a new pretty buildings too. We have those as well,

2366
02:27:35,120 --> 02:27:41,360
Speaker 1: but we don't really have that coexistence um, at least

2367
02:27:41,360 --> 02:27:45,000
Speaker 1: that on paper, not in politics certainly. I want to

2368
02:27:45,720 --> 02:27:50,959
Speaker 1: go back for a second too, I guess the moment

2369
02:27:51,000 --> 02:27:52,879
Speaker 1: of Chito dying because it's always been a sort of

2370
02:27:52,879 --> 02:27:57,000
Speaker 1: interesting thing looking at it for me because I remember,

2371
02:27:57,000 --> 02:27:59,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, so from from setting Chinese history

2372
02:27:59,560 --> 02:28:02,959
Speaker 1: right there, there's a period where in the seventies were okay,

2373
02:28:03,000 --> 02:28:05,640
Speaker 1: like everyone's looking for reform in China, and you know

2374
02:28:05,959 --> 02:28:07,560
Speaker 1: what what you would consider like the sort of the

2375
02:28:08,640 --> 02:28:11,280
Speaker 1: I guess you could call them the I don't know,

2376
02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:14,640
Speaker 1: left and right is complicated in China, but you know,

2377
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:16,200
Speaker 1: like there there are a lot of sort of what

2378
02:28:16,280 --> 02:28:19,240
Speaker 1: you would call like the sort of left socialist like

2379
02:28:19,720 --> 02:28:22,160
Speaker 1: democratic reformers. Who are you know, I mean people people

2380
02:28:22,160 --> 02:28:24,160
Speaker 1: like they're looking at Yugoslavia as a model and they're going, oh,

2381
02:28:24,200 --> 02:28:27,240
Speaker 1: we can have like workers participation and we can have

2382
02:28:27,520 --> 02:28:33,800
Speaker 1: we can have these democratic enterprises and then that just implodes,

2383
02:28:33,920 --> 02:28:35,720
Speaker 1: and and yeah, I wonder if we could talk a

2384
02:28:35,720 --> 02:28:39,240
Speaker 1: little bit about more about that, because my my very

2385
02:28:39,280 --> 02:28:42,240
Speaker 1: limited understanding of it was like there's an economic crisis

2386
02:28:42,640 --> 02:28:48,640
Speaker 1: from the oil shocks, and then once Tito dies, it's

2387
02:28:48,680 --> 02:28:52,440
Speaker 1: just like the wheels come off the whole system. I mean,

2388
02:28:52,440 --> 02:28:54,920
Speaker 1: that's a really good way of like putting it. Um,

2389
02:28:54,959 --> 02:28:57,879
Speaker 1: you know, like life in Yugoslavia, I don't think it

2390
02:28:57,920 --> 02:29:00,840
Speaker 1: was like ever perfect, and I definitely don't think it

2391
02:29:00,920 --> 02:29:04,000
Speaker 1: was a perfect system. I think you know, me being

2392
02:29:04,080 --> 02:29:07,240
Speaker 1: a Bosnian who was born to Vary, I think pro

2393
02:29:07,440 --> 02:29:12,840
Speaker 1: Yugoslav parents. Um. I just like many of my you know,

2394
02:29:12,920 --> 02:29:18,200
Speaker 1: fellow Yugoslavs or x Yugoslavs habitancyemed to look at Yugoslavia

2395
02:29:18,400 --> 02:29:22,600
Speaker 1: with like rose colored lenses. You know. We think about

2396
02:29:22,879 --> 02:29:28,920
Speaker 1: the coexistence, the unity, the multi ethnic part, the worker

2397
02:29:29,160 --> 02:29:33,879
Speaker 1: owned you know, socialist models, the fact that our parents, um,

2398
02:29:33,920 --> 02:29:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, we're able to provide for their families and

2399
02:29:36,800 --> 02:29:41,120
Speaker 1: take vacations and travel and um, you know, get together

2400
02:29:41,160 --> 02:29:44,000
Speaker 1: and all these sort of wonderful things. But in the background,

2401
02:29:44,080 --> 02:29:47,400
Speaker 1: really in the sort of depths of the you know,

2402
02:29:47,520 --> 02:29:55,520
Speaker 1: politics and the economic issues were kind of always there. UM.

2403
02:29:55,560 --> 02:29:57,920
Speaker 1: You know, the one thing that Tito did was obviously

2404
02:29:58,000 --> 02:30:03,520
Speaker 1: he relied unlike I think other socialist leaders of his

2405
02:30:03,640 --> 02:30:07,879
Speaker 1: time is you know, he basically worked with anyone, you know,

2406
02:30:08,120 --> 02:30:13,400
Speaker 1: the non aligned movement, but also with the West, with Europe,

2407
02:30:13,800 --> 02:30:16,480
Speaker 1: you know. So uh, he was a very picky choosy

2408
02:30:16,560 --> 02:30:21,120
Speaker 1: I think was you know, the betterment of the country

2409
02:30:21,280 --> 02:30:28,120
Speaker 1: by kind of any means necessary. UM. But I think,

2410
02:30:28,800 --> 02:30:33,760
Speaker 1: you know, he made mistakes, just like um other leaders do.

2411
02:30:34,000 --> 02:30:38,240
Speaker 1: And I think obviously we had, you know, two issues.

2412
02:30:38,320 --> 02:30:42,000
Speaker 1: One he was sick, he was dying, um. And and

2413
02:30:42,240 --> 02:30:45,920
Speaker 1: too there was an economic crisis happening. Um. And three

2414
02:30:46,040 --> 02:30:52,160
Speaker 1: then we had like the economic reforms, which really shifted

2415
02:30:52,480 --> 02:30:55,600
Speaker 1: the entire I mean they just they very much shifted

2416
02:30:56,080 --> 02:31:00,480
Speaker 1: the the system that the Yugoslav people were very much

2417
02:31:00,600 --> 02:31:03,879
Speaker 1: used to. UM. It became more and more prior, you know,

2418
02:31:03,959 --> 02:31:08,400
Speaker 1: privatized after his death. UM. And And you know, Miloroshevich

2419
02:31:09,320 --> 02:31:12,440
Speaker 1: he was he was a banker, he was a businessman.

2420
02:31:12,560 --> 02:31:17,720
Speaker 1: He was he was who he was. UM. And I

2421
02:31:17,800 --> 02:31:21,080
Speaker 1: don't think that he ever really pretended to be a socialist,

2422
02:31:21,879 --> 02:31:26,320
Speaker 1: which is why I get so upset when American leftists

2423
02:31:26,879 --> 02:31:29,840
Speaker 1: call him a socialist or call him an anti imperialist,

2424
02:31:29,879 --> 02:31:33,320
Speaker 1: because those aren't even words that you know, he himself

2425
02:31:33,360 --> 02:31:37,240
Speaker 1: would have really used to describe himself. I think, but

2426
02:31:39,040 --> 02:31:43,680
Speaker 1: but I think, you know, there was just it was

2427
02:31:43,800 --> 02:31:48,040
Speaker 1: that sort of thing where there's an economic crisis brewing,

2428
02:31:48,440 --> 02:31:52,760
Speaker 1: they have no ways to really fix it. People are broke,

2429
02:31:53,000 --> 02:31:57,680
Speaker 1: people are starving. Suddenly the ownership, the worker you know

2430
02:31:57,879 --> 02:32:00,280
Speaker 1: owned sort of model is being shifted, it to a

2431
02:32:00,320 --> 02:32:05,199
Speaker 1: more privatized model, and people are just not happy. What's

2432
02:32:05,200 --> 02:32:11,200
Speaker 1: a good way to distract from that? You know, It's

2433
02:32:11,280 --> 02:32:14,280
Speaker 1: just we see it happen everywhere. It's not a new

2434
02:32:15,600 --> 02:32:18,480
Speaker 1: it's not like a new, you know tactic. It's a

2435
02:32:18,520 --> 02:32:24,440
Speaker 1: tactic that everyone has utilized. Blame it on the other. Um. So,

2436
02:32:24,520 --> 02:32:27,520
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia didn't really have you know, immigrants that they could

2437
02:32:27,560 --> 02:32:31,840
Speaker 1: blame it on, but they had Muslims. So and they

2438
02:32:31,879 --> 02:32:36,039
Speaker 1: had the Kastovo you know, Albanians and the Bossians and

2439
02:32:36,160 --> 02:32:42,600
Speaker 1: that was, you know enough, and suddenly the conversation really shifted.

2440
02:32:43,320 --> 02:32:47,360
Speaker 1: And obviously I'm simplifying all of this a lot, so

2441
02:32:47,480 --> 02:32:51,440
Speaker 1: much more complicated. Um but you know, there there are

2442
02:32:51,480 --> 02:32:55,560
Speaker 1: books out there and and that obviously go into a

2443
02:32:55,720 --> 02:32:59,960
Speaker 1: great you know level of detail, um into the actual

2444
02:33:00,080 --> 02:33:03,720
Speaker 1: sort of break up, so I can give some recommendations later.

2445
02:33:04,240 --> 02:33:08,240
Speaker 1: But um, yeah. But I think in in that sort

2446
02:33:08,280 --> 02:33:11,440
Speaker 1: of very simplistic kind of sense is there was an

2447
02:33:11,480 --> 02:33:14,360
Speaker 1: economic crisis happening. A good way to sort of distract

2448
02:33:14,400 --> 02:33:18,080
Speaker 1: that was the use of ethno nationalism, and it just

2449
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:21,600
Speaker 1: kind of spiraled from there. I think, you know what

2450
02:33:21,800 --> 02:33:25,000
Speaker 1: Miloshevitch and what people like Miloshevitch always want, it's more

2451
02:33:25,080 --> 02:33:30,720
Speaker 1: power for themselves. And so his whole thing wasn't really

2452
02:33:30,760 --> 02:33:36,480
Speaker 1: ever about keeping Yugoslavia intact as Yugoslavia. It was keeping

2453
02:33:36,520 --> 02:33:40,800
Speaker 1: this vision of a greater Serbia alive. Because the thing is,

2454
02:33:41,160 --> 02:33:46,560
Speaker 1: you know, if we had not had a person like Miloshevitch,

2455
02:33:46,600 --> 02:33:49,200
Speaker 1: if we just had somebody who was you know, the second,

2456
02:33:49,360 --> 02:33:54,039
Speaker 1: you know, maybe more or less worse or better, who cares.

2457
02:33:54,520 --> 02:33:56,600
Speaker 1: I think people would have been fine. I think, you know,

2458
02:33:57,240 --> 02:33:59,959
Speaker 1: I don't see this like war breaking now. But instead

2459
02:34:00,040 --> 02:34:02,760
Speaker 1: we had Miloshevich who was like way more concerned about

2460
02:34:02,800 --> 02:34:07,360
Speaker 1: consolidating power, exerting that control. When he realized that he

2461
02:34:07,400 --> 02:34:11,720
Speaker 1: could use ethno nationalism to get to his goals, of

2462
02:34:11,760 --> 02:34:13,879
Speaker 1: course he was going to use that of course, like

2463
02:34:13,920 --> 02:34:16,400
Speaker 1: who wouldn't you know, we see it today with like

2464
02:34:16,840 --> 02:34:20,640
Speaker 1: what Trump did. He utilized, you know, Muslims and immigrants

2465
02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:23,840
Speaker 1: and refugees and black people, all his scapegoats to distract

2466
02:34:23,879 --> 02:34:26,880
Speaker 1: from all the other things that are wrong with him,

2467
02:34:27,040 --> 02:34:31,000
Speaker 1: his leadership and the overall country. And Miloshevich did the same.

2468
02:34:31,080 --> 02:34:35,360
Speaker 1: He just did what any other politician did. And you know,

2469
02:34:35,480 --> 02:34:39,520
Speaker 1: that's the thing I think, you know, in thinking about Bosnia, Croatia,

2470
02:34:39,600 --> 02:34:42,320
Speaker 1: Slovenia and all these countries that started to succeed, I

2471
02:34:42,360 --> 02:34:49,320
Speaker 1: think if they had felt comfortable with, you know, staying

2472
02:34:49,360 --> 02:34:52,360
Speaker 1: in a country that is multi ethnic, at least in

2473
02:34:52,360 --> 02:34:54,120
Speaker 1: the case of Bosnian's. I'm not going to speak for

2474
02:34:54,160 --> 02:34:56,280
Speaker 1: the Slovanians or Croatians because they have their own, i

2475
02:34:56,320 --> 02:35:04,160
Speaker 1: think complicated identity. But with Bosnian, are are saying collectively,

2476
02:35:04,280 --> 02:35:07,440
Speaker 1: I think while we're not a monologue, not monolith, but

2477
02:35:07,520 --> 02:35:13,680
Speaker 1: collectively was always where are united? We are multi ethnic,

2478
02:35:13,840 --> 02:35:18,240
Speaker 1: multi religious, multi cultural, and it's such a big part

2479
02:35:18,360 --> 02:35:23,200
Speaker 1: of like our entire history and identity. And so if

2480
02:35:23,240 --> 02:35:31,280
Speaker 1: the choices being you know, under served control being secondary citizens,

2481
02:35:31,480 --> 02:35:36,240
Speaker 1: not having that equality, not having that multi ethnicity, of

2482
02:35:36,280 --> 02:35:38,240
Speaker 1: course we're not going to take that choice. Of course,

2483
02:35:38,240 --> 02:35:40,600
Speaker 1: people are gonna want to you know, when when you

2484
02:35:40,680 --> 02:35:43,600
Speaker 1: have like that, you know, that boot on your neck

2485
02:35:43,640 --> 02:35:47,000
Speaker 1: of saying like we're going to control you, we're gonna

2486
02:35:47,000 --> 02:35:49,720
Speaker 1: take your land and we're gonna basically rule over you.

2487
02:35:49,840 --> 02:35:53,120
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to deal with that. And you know, unlike

2488
02:35:54,320 --> 02:35:59,119
Speaker 1: a lot of the other countries in former Yugoslavia, Bosnia

2489
02:35:59,240 --> 02:36:02,520
Speaker 1: really was the most multi ethnic. It had one of

2490
02:36:02,520 --> 02:36:06,760
Speaker 1: the highest rates of you know, mixed ethnic marriages and

2491
02:36:06,959 --> 02:36:11,440
Speaker 1: multi religious marriages, and that kind of remains true even today.

2492
02:36:12,800 --> 02:36:16,680
Speaker 1: So especially in places like sorry Evo, Mostadeluka, you know,

2493
02:36:16,720 --> 02:36:20,160
Speaker 1: the bigger cities, it has this very proud history of

2494
02:36:21,240 --> 02:36:25,119
Speaker 1: you know, coexistence and multiethnic co existence. So I think

2495
02:36:26,400 --> 02:36:30,480
Speaker 1: what happened for so many people was just a huge

2496
02:36:30,480 --> 02:36:34,800
Speaker 1: amount of shock. Um, my own family, so many people

2497
02:36:34,800 --> 02:36:38,160
Speaker 1: in my own family just did not think it could happen. Now.

2498
02:36:39,080 --> 02:36:44,680
Speaker 1: They grew up with this idea of a united you know,

2499
02:36:44,879 --> 02:36:50,960
Speaker 1: multi ethnic Yugoslavia, brotherhood and unity. These are our neighbors,

2500
02:36:50,959 --> 02:36:57,080
Speaker 1: our friends, our teachers, are lovers, you know whatever. There

2501
02:36:57,120 --> 02:36:59,400
Speaker 1: they work with us, they live next to us. Of first,

2502
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:03,080
Speaker 1: they're not gonna you know, turn against us. And I

2503
02:37:03,120 --> 02:37:07,000
Speaker 1: think even while all the politicians were fearmong rowing, while

2504
02:37:07,200 --> 02:37:09,880
Speaker 1: you know, Miloshevitch and Karta Duge were sort of leading

2505
02:37:09,920 --> 02:37:17,640
Speaker 1: their campaigns of you know, especially as lamophobic provacad propaganda, um,

2506
02:37:17,680 --> 02:37:20,840
Speaker 1: you know, in in newspapers, on the radio, on TV,

2507
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:24,320
Speaker 1: any chance that any speech that they gave, they talked

2508
02:37:24,320 --> 02:37:26,240
Speaker 1: about how the Muslims were coming, we were going to

2509
02:37:26,320 --> 02:37:29,480
Speaker 1: make their daughters wear her jobs, we were gonna take over.

2510
02:37:29,640 --> 02:37:32,520
Speaker 1: We're going to kill them, you know before that's why

2511
02:37:32,560 --> 02:37:34,520
Speaker 1: they have to kill us, because they don't call us

2512
02:37:34,560 --> 02:37:36,920
Speaker 1: we're going to kill them. It was whole, you know,

2513
02:37:37,760 --> 02:37:42,600
Speaker 1: really brilliant propaganda campaign in so many ways that has

2514
02:37:42,640 --> 02:37:46,480
Speaker 1: now been replicated in so many other Can Can we

2515
02:37:46,720 --> 02:37:50,119
Speaker 1: talk about that specifically for yes? Second, because I think

2516
02:37:50,120 --> 02:37:55,879
Speaker 1: there's something interesting in the way that like the way

2517
02:37:55,920 --> 02:37:58,440
Speaker 1: that you get people to do with genocide always seems

2518
02:37:58,480 --> 02:38:02,279
Speaker 1: to be, like you, it's extremely hard to get someone

2519
02:38:02,360 --> 02:38:05,920
Speaker 1: to like just murder their neighbor because they don't like them.

2520
02:38:05,959 --> 02:38:08,800
Speaker 1: You have to do this like they're about to exterminate us,

2521
02:38:08,800 --> 02:38:10,720
Speaker 1: and that's why we have to like strike first. And

2522
02:38:10,959 --> 02:38:13,800
Speaker 1: that Yeah, that that that aspect of it I think

2523
02:38:13,879 --> 02:38:16,840
Speaker 1: is is something that I see a lot when when

2524
02:38:16,840 --> 02:38:18,720
Speaker 1: I do this, and you know you you have you

2525
02:38:18,760 --> 02:38:23,080
Speaker 1: have done more geneside studies. I want to hear. Yeah.

2526
02:38:23,160 --> 02:38:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing. UM, it's so funny. I

2527
02:38:26,680 --> 02:38:30,080
Speaker 1: gave like an interview UM on this specific topic I

2528
02:38:30,120 --> 02:38:33,240
Speaker 1: don't know, like two years ago, and I remember turning

2529
02:38:33,360 --> 02:38:35,680
Speaker 1: to the guy who's interviewing me because he was just

2530
02:38:35,760 --> 02:38:40,120
Speaker 1: like his look on his face was I just don't understand,

2531
02:38:40,200 --> 02:38:42,600
Speaker 1: Like I don't. I can't wrap my mind about how

2532
02:38:42,680 --> 02:38:46,960
Speaker 1: people could do that to their friends, neighbors, students, you know,

2533
02:38:47,840 --> 02:38:51,800
Speaker 1: people they were sworn to like protect and and people

2534
02:38:51,840 --> 02:38:55,320
Speaker 1: they lived with their entire lives. How could they do that? Well,

2535
02:38:55,360 --> 02:38:56,840
Speaker 1: you know, I turned to him and I said, yeah,

2536
02:38:56,840 --> 02:39:00,280
Speaker 1: I mean, if I told you right now go kill him,

2537
02:39:00,320 --> 02:39:03,400
Speaker 1: you know you probably wouldn't. But if I came to

2538
02:39:03,480 --> 02:39:07,680
Speaker 1: you day in and day out, and I slowly started

2539
02:39:07,680 --> 02:39:10,959
Speaker 1: to kind of whisper in your ear, and I started

2540
02:39:10,959 --> 02:39:14,240
Speaker 1: to tell you, you know, he's been really really I

2541
02:39:14,280 --> 02:39:16,680
Speaker 1: don't know, he's been saying a lot of stuff about you.

2542
02:39:16,879 --> 02:39:20,600
Speaker 1: He's been quite negative or I don't know, you know,

2543
02:39:21,120 --> 02:39:23,039
Speaker 1: do you think he's kind of acting weird? I feel

2544
02:39:23,040 --> 02:39:26,080
Speaker 1: like he might be planning something. You may be planning

2545
02:39:26,080 --> 02:39:28,080
Speaker 1: to take over your house. You may be planning to,

2546
02:39:28,800 --> 02:39:30,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably attack your sister. I think he's

2547
02:39:30,720 --> 02:39:32,760
Speaker 1: gonna kill your sister. I think you might make your

2548
02:39:32,760 --> 02:39:35,680
Speaker 1: sister wear her job. So it's these very like slow,

2549
02:39:35,840 --> 02:39:38,439
Speaker 1: subtle things. And that's the thing that people don't understand.

2550
02:39:39,000 --> 02:39:45,039
Speaker 1: You know. Violence never interrupts, like, never erupts out of nowhere,

2551
02:39:46,000 --> 02:39:50,600
Speaker 1: you know it. It's always planned. It bruised, and it bruise,

2552
02:39:50,640 --> 02:39:52,800
Speaker 1: and it bruised, and then it explodes. You know. Then

2553
02:39:52,840 --> 02:39:56,160
Speaker 1: there's the thing. But it comes slowly. And that's how

2554
02:39:56,200 --> 02:40:00,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't he was slofty. It wasn't this sudden. You know. Yes,

2555
02:40:00,320 --> 02:40:04,320
Speaker 1: we're brothers and sisters. Forever, Go Tito, go Yugoslavia too.

2556
02:40:04,920 --> 02:40:06,680
Speaker 1: You know, Oh, I hate you because you're a Muslim,

2557
02:40:06,720 --> 02:40:08,400
Speaker 1: and I hate you because your servant. I hate you

2558
02:40:08,400 --> 02:40:10,640
Speaker 1: because you're a proact. No, that was not the case.

2559
02:40:11,120 --> 02:40:14,960
Speaker 1: The case was that this was a very slow campaign

2560
02:40:15,080 --> 02:40:19,680
Speaker 1: of propaganda that started in the eighties, almost immediately after

2561
02:40:19,720 --> 02:40:24,320
Speaker 1: Tito's That's let's say it started very slow, started with

2562
02:40:24,360 --> 02:40:27,800
Speaker 1: the you know, with the sort of I think disenfranchisement

2563
02:40:28,000 --> 02:40:32,160
Speaker 1: of the coast of all Albanians um and kind of

2564
02:40:32,160 --> 02:40:36,160
Speaker 1: the targeting of them um. And again, yes, there was

2565
02:40:36,200 --> 02:40:38,640
Speaker 1: this economic component on of it, but the way they

2566
02:40:38,640 --> 02:40:42,520
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of sidetrack that was, you know, well,

2567
02:40:42,600 --> 02:40:46,680
Speaker 1: you're you're hungry because the coast of Albanians are not,

2568
02:40:47,080 --> 02:40:52,040
Speaker 1: you know, and they're taking your jobs again some more, uh,

2569
02:40:52,080 --> 02:40:55,879
Speaker 1: you know tactics that we see. Yeah, so it's not

2570
02:40:56,000 --> 02:40:58,160
Speaker 1: it's not that much different, but yeah, you know, it

2571
02:40:58,280 --> 02:41:02,600
Speaker 1: starts slow and and the Militievitch and the cottage and

2572
02:41:02,640 --> 02:41:06,160
Speaker 1: the Maladich kind of campaigning was God, it was brutal.

2573
02:41:06,240 --> 02:41:08,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like I always say, it was kind of

2574
02:41:08,160 --> 02:41:13,400
Speaker 1: brilliantly executed in that it really got two people so

2575
02:41:13,480 --> 02:41:16,440
Speaker 1: much that then again, you know, they turned neighbor against neigbor.

2576
02:41:17,160 --> 02:41:21,280
Speaker 1: It was it was subtle in the beginning. It was

2577
02:41:21,320 --> 02:41:24,200
Speaker 1: that sort of what are the Muslims up to? Can

2578
02:41:24,280 --> 02:41:26,680
Speaker 1: we trust them? Can you trust your neighbor? Can you

2579
02:41:26,680 --> 02:41:30,959
Speaker 1: trust the Muslims? You know, talking about islam sization, talking

2580
02:41:31,000 --> 02:41:34,040
Speaker 1: about aliyaz Abiga, which is book that he wrote when

2581
02:41:34,080 --> 02:41:37,320
Speaker 1: he was like I don't know eighteen or or whatever, like,

2582
02:41:38,240 --> 02:41:41,280
Speaker 1: and you know, talking about World War two. This was

2583
02:41:41,320 --> 02:41:44,800
Speaker 1: another thing like, like everybody knows that there was a

2584
02:41:44,800 --> 02:41:47,119
Speaker 1: period in World War Two where you know, a lot

2585
02:41:47,120 --> 02:41:50,280
Speaker 1: of service were killed by the usha UH and by

2586
02:41:50,360 --> 02:41:55,000
Speaker 1: the Nazi collaborationists. And I think obviously that's a real

2587
02:41:55,240 --> 02:41:57,959
Speaker 1: fear for you know, for a certain group of people

2588
02:41:58,040 --> 02:42:00,480
Speaker 1: who went through that. So there is a lot of

2589
02:42:00,520 --> 02:42:02,240
Speaker 1: that as well. You know, that's going to happen again,

2590
02:42:02,320 --> 02:42:06,920
Speaker 1: That's going to happen again. Meanwhile, there was no grand plan.

2591
02:42:07,120 --> 02:42:11,600
Speaker 1: There was never even talks of you know, committing violence

2592
02:42:12,120 --> 02:42:15,400
Speaker 1: or even you know, talks of you know, seceding from

2593
02:42:15,440 --> 02:42:21,640
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia or anything. It was all it was all set

2594
02:42:21,680 --> 02:42:25,760
Speaker 1: in motion by the Serbian leadership, you know. And I

2595
02:42:25,800 --> 02:42:31,160
Speaker 1: think that's what people don't understand. The Bousian leadership, while

2596
02:42:31,240 --> 02:42:35,360
Speaker 1: not perfect, we're simply reacting to what the Serbian leadership

2597
02:42:35,440 --> 02:42:39,600
Speaker 1: was in many ways making them do. And and that's

2598
02:42:39,640 --> 02:42:43,440
Speaker 1: kind of where you know, what happens in these situations.

2599
02:42:43,480 --> 02:42:44,880
Speaker 1: You know, they kind of push you and push you

2600
02:42:44,920 --> 02:42:48,720
Speaker 1: and push you until they're able to get you know,

2601
02:42:49,040 --> 02:42:51,680
Speaker 1: some sort of rise out of you, or response out

2602
02:42:51,680 --> 02:42:54,360
Speaker 1: of you, or or get you on that sort of

2603
02:42:54,360 --> 02:42:57,520
Speaker 1: offensive where you have to defend yourself. You have to

2604
02:42:57,560 --> 02:42:59,560
Speaker 1: defend your identity. You have to defend who you are,

2605
02:42:59,640 --> 02:43:03,480
Speaker 1: you have to it justify it also in many ways.

2606
02:43:03,959 --> 02:43:08,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, the you know, the sort of propaganda campaign. God,

2607
02:43:09,080 --> 02:43:12,840
Speaker 1: there was you know obviously the funny things were like

2608
02:43:12,959 --> 02:43:14,720
Speaker 1: things like they're going to make you wear the h job,

2609
02:43:14,959 --> 02:43:19,440
Speaker 1: but it was also very insiduous because they would target

2610
02:43:20,520 --> 02:43:26,040
Speaker 1: like these you know villages where they were like Bosnians

2611
02:43:26,080 --> 02:43:29,440
Speaker 1: and Serbs, you know, living together, and they're quite small,

2612
02:43:30,440 --> 02:43:33,480
Speaker 1: but they knew that like in the village obviously usually

2613
02:43:33,520 --> 02:43:36,039
Speaker 1: have a gun or you know shotgun because of the

2614
02:43:36,080 --> 02:43:39,480
Speaker 1: animals or you know, working or whatever. So they were

2615
02:43:39,560 --> 02:43:42,720
Speaker 1: like target them specifically with like the you know, the

2616
02:43:42,840 --> 02:43:47,240
Speaker 1: radio and instead of like the big cities, like they

2617
02:43:47,280 --> 02:43:49,920
Speaker 1: worked up to the big cities, but they really started

2618
02:43:49,959 --> 02:43:53,640
Speaker 1: in like specific sort of areas like in eastern Bosnia,

2619
02:43:53,720 --> 02:43:56,560
Speaker 1: especially because there was like a lot of um i

2620
02:43:56,640 --> 02:44:00,640
Speaker 1: think majority Muslim like villages in that area up that

2621
02:44:00,680 --> 02:44:04,280
Speaker 1: would also have like nearby served villages. So yeah, I

2622
02:44:04,280 --> 02:44:06,199
Speaker 1: mean there was that there was you know then sort

2623
02:44:06,200 --> 02:44:12,120
Speaker 1: of taking over all the radio stations and um kind

2624
02:44:12,160 --> 02:44:14,960
Speaker 1: of going full force. They think like in the sort

2625
02:44:15,000 --> 02:44:22,080
Speaker 1: of early days of the war, like we're talking April May.

2626
02:44:23,040 --> 02:44:27,680
Speaker 1: They you know, they would get people like pretending that

2627
02:44:27,760 --> 02:44:30,720
Speaker 1: they were Bosnians, they were actually Serbs, and they would

2628
02:44:30,720 --> 02:44:33,640
Speaker 1: like talk about how they went to you know, kill

2629
02:44:33,720 --> 02:44:37,080
Speaker 1: all Serbs or something like that. Um. There was also

2630
02:44:37,200 --> 02:44:40,240
Speaker 1: when they were like having people in concentration camps where

2631
02:44:40,240 --> 02:44:43,520
Speaker 1: they like started kind of putting them in those concentration camps. Initially,

2632
02:44:44,200 --> 02:44:49,720
Speaker 1: they they would make the victims into concentration camps. The

2633
02:44:49,840 --> 02:44:54,320
Speaker 1: Muslims basically you know, say that, oh, they're just there

2634
02:44:55,720 --> 02:45:00,200
Speaker 1: as a refugee and the Serbian army is like protecting um,

2635
02:45:00,360 --> 02:45:03,400
Speaker 1: and they're making me feel really welcome and stuff like that.

2636
02:45:03,520 --> 02:45:08,520
Speaker 1: So it was right at the beginning between especially eighty

2637
02:45:08,680 --> 02:45:14,800
Speaker 1: nine too, like the propaganda was so visible and it

2638
02:45:15,160 --> 02:45:19,160
Speaker 1: really escalated, and it was like suddenly everywhere and you

2639
02:45:19,200 --> 02:45:25,480
Speaker 1: would hear Carategic and little Worshovitch talk about you know,

2640
02:45:25,560 --> 02:45:29,720
Speaker 1: the Muslims and the things that we wanted and you know,

2641
02:45:29,760 --> 02:45:32,600
Speaker 1: the things that the goals that we had, which after all,

2642
02:45:32,640 --> 02:45:35,560
Speaker 1: we're not you know, nobody was saying it. There wasn't

2643
02:45:35,600 --> 02:45:37,800
Speaker 1: like a single person that was saying these things that

2644
02:45:37,879 --> 02:45:41,200
Speaker 1: they were attributing to us. But that didn't matter what

2645
02:45:41,280 --> 02:45:44,400
Speaker 1: they were just doing was instilling enough fear and enough

2646
02:45:44,480 --> 02:45:48,000
Speaker 1: doubt in the population to eventually get them to take

2647
02:45:48,080 --> 02:45:52,640
Speaker 1: up arms when the time comes. And unfortunately, that's precisely

2648
02:45:52,680 --> 02:45:55,720
Speaker 1: what happened. When the time came. You know, a lot

2649
02:45:55,760 --> 02:45:58,039
Speaker 1: of people did take up arms, whether or not they

2650
02:45:58,040 --> 02:46:01,400
Speaker 1: wanted to. They had enough of that doubt and fear

2651
02:46:01,640 --> 02:46:04,600
Speaker 1: so in their minds over the course of you know,

2652
02:46:04,680 --> 02:46:08,560
Speaker 1: several years that they ended up feeling like I have

2653
02:46:08,680 --> 02:46:11,720
Speaker 1: to protect myself. And I'm not saying that's the case

2654
02:46:11,760 --> 02:46:15,080
Speaker 1: for every certain person. I think some a lot of

2655
02:46:15,240 --> 02:46:19,680
Speaker 1: you know, especially in higher leadership pomissions, a lot of

2656
02:46:19,720 --> 02:46:22,800
Speaker 1: them were just sociopaths who wanted to kill. And I

2657
02:46:22,879 --> 02:46:27,279
Speaker 1: don't think it mattered why or how, because you're always

2658
02:46:27,280 --> 02:46:30,120
Speaker 1: going to get those kind of people. But I think

2659
02:46:30,320 --> 02:46:36,120
Speaker 1: when we're talking about how how that shift happened so last,

2660
02:46:36,200 --> 02:46:39,800
Speaker 1: we have to obviously discuss the propaganda. A huge amount

2661
02:46:39,800 --> 02:46:43,199
Speaker 1: of propaganda that I went into, uh, you know, implementing

2662
02:46:43,240 --> 02:46:52,240
Speaker 1: it such a tangent that that was really great. Yeah,

2663
02:46:52,320 --> 02:46:54,160
Speaker 1: I think, you know, yeah, I mean, I guess, like,

2664
02:46:55,600 --> 02:46:59,480
Speaker 1: I think it's incredibly important for everyone to understand the

2665
02:46:59,560 --> 02:47:02,560
Speaker 1: propaganda it works. Like if you just say something over

2666
02:47:02,600 --> 02:47:05,520
Speaker 1: and over and over again, like it does you know

2667
02:47:05,600 --> 02:47:09,640
Speaker 1: of event eventually it pays off, and you know the

2668
02:47:09,760 --> 02:47:15,000
Speaker 1: quote unquote payoff here is the genocide. And I guess, yeah,

2669
02:47:15,040 --> 02:47:17,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how far into detail you want to

2670
02:47:18,240 --> 02:47:22,600
Speaker 1: get into this here, but but I think one thing

2671
02:47:22,640 --> 02:47:25,400
Speaker 1: I want to kind of focus on because I think

2672
02:47:25,600 --> 02:47:28,880
Speaker 1: from from reading what you've been saying about this, that

2673
02:47:30,280 --> 02:47:32,119
Speaker 1: this wound up being a big deal with like why

2674
02:47:32,200 --> 02:47:35,880
Speaker 1: things are sort of still fucked now, which is that

2675
02:47:36,080 --> 02:47:38,560
Speaker 1: like the international response to this. Like I mean, one

2676
02:47:38,560 --> 02:47:40,520
Speaker 1: of the things I'm always just like haunted by is

2677
02:47:40,640 --> 02:47:44,760
Speaker 1: there's this quote by mid Irand who's the Prome Mr

2678
02:47:44,760 --> 02:47:46,480
Speaker 1: of France. He's like this, sup wants to be the socialist.

2679
02:47:46,560 --> 02:47:48,280
Speaker 1: He's like the guy that like they finally put in

2680
02:47:48,320 --> 02:47:50,120
Speaker 1: power after like all of the stuff in the sixties,

2681
02:47:50,160 --> 02:47:54,440
Speaker 1: and he has this lyon about like I'm sorry, I wish,

2682
02:47:54,440 --> 02:47:56,600
Speaker 1: I wish I told up the exact quote, but it's

2683
02:47:56,640 --> 02:48:02,080
Speaker 1: it's basically like, I I know the quote. Yeah, do

2684
02:48:02,120 --> 02:48:05,080
Speaker 1: you want to say exactly I know the quote? Um,

2685
02:48:05,560 --> 02:48:12,439
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's what was it a peaceful but necessary

2686
02:48:13,320 --> 02:48:19,200
Speaker 1: reconstruction of a Christian europe Um And Bosnia does not belong.

2687
02:48:20,520 --> 02:48:24,960
Speaker 1: So I remember that differently. It's really stayed with me

2688
02:48:25,080 --> 02:48:27,320
Speaker 1: for such a long time because he said that at

2689
02:48:27,320 --> 02:48:33,080
Speaker 1: a time where the Bosnian Muslims were just completely defenseless. Um,

2690
02:48:33,120 --> 02:48:36,039
Speaker 1: they were being dragged the way to concentrate to shim camps.

2691
02:48:36,080 --> 02:48:39,920
Speaker 1: The massacres were already well underway. We're not talking about stuburdance.

2692
02:48:41,120 --> 02:48:47,320
Speaker 1: We're talking about sorry about uh um even stub at

2693
02:48:47,400 --> 02:48:51,080
Speaker 1: ninety two. You know, this is all um, the things

2694
02:48:51,080 --> 02:48:54,080
Speaker 1: that happened in places like witch quoins running and all

2695
02:48:54,120 --> 02:48:56,879
Speaker 1: these like places that you that I think the vast

2696
02:48:56,920 --> 02:48:59,520
Speaker 1: majority of people don't really know about any here about,

2697
02:49:00,280 --> 02:49:03,560
Speaker 1: like in a lot of my family is from there.

2698
02:49:04,120 --> 02:49:08,560
Speaker 1: Within a span of three months, that entire town, the

2699
02:49:08,800 --> 02:49:15,800
Speaker 1: entire town which was once almost entirely Bosnia muslim Um,

2700
02:49:16,080 --> 02:49:20,680
Speaker 1: was ethnically cleansed, and that was done through forced deportations,

2701
02:49:21,080 --> 02:49:25,240
Speaker 1: concentration camps, mass rapes and rape camps of women and

2702
02:49:25,280 --> 02:49:28,040
Speaker 1: obviously a lot of murders. You know. So we're talking

2703
02:49:28,080 --> 02:49:32,520
Speaker 1: about one small town that took you know, three three months,

2704
02:49:32,560 --> 02:49:36,440
Speaker 1: and my family when it comes to that town, on

2705
02:49:36,480 --> 02:49:39,520
Speaker 1: both my mother's and my father's side, interestingly enough, has

2706
02:49:39,600 --> 02:49:42,200
Speaker 1: like such a long history. My parents fell in love

2707
02:49:42,240 --> 02:49:45,560
Speaker 1: there when they were like kids, so you know, they

2708
02:49:45,720 --> 02:49:48,800
Speaker 1: you know, my grandmother's house was there, my grandfather's house

2709
02:49:48,879 --> 02:49:53,000
Speaker 1: was there, um on like both sides and they, you know,

2710
02:49:53,040 --> 02:49:57,400
Speaker 1: so is this beautiful little town where you know, Bosnians

2711
02:49:57,440 --> 02:50:01,440
Speaker 1: and Bosniaks and Serbs and Coad lived in Jews Roma

2712
02:50:01,520 --> 02:50:04,920
Speaker 1: and you know, my parents talk about the beauty of

2713
02:50:04,959 --> 02:50:07,840
Speaker 1: it and this wonderful sort of experience that they had

2714
02:50:07,879 --> 02:50:11,360
Speaker 1: when they lived there. My mom is from saraebo Um

2715
02:50:11,440 --> 02:50:14,000
Speaker 1: and I saw my i as well obviously, but the

2716
02:50:14,240 --> 02:50:16,200
Speaker 1: Kad was like the place that she would go kind

2717
02:50:16,240 --> 02:50:18,080
Speaker 1: of like for the weekend, just because of the family

2718
02:50:18,120 --> 02:50:21,960
Speaker 1: that we had there. UM so very special. I think

2719
02:50:21,959 --> 02:50:27,520
Speaker 1: in her heart my grandpa's heart as well, and you know,

2720
02:50:27,600 --> 02:50:32,320
Speaker 1: within it's just like so hard to like fathom that

2721
02:50:32,440 --> 02:50:36,080
Speaker 1: within just a few months that talent was completely ethnically

2722
02:50:36,120 --> 02:50:41,080
Speaker 1: climes and that the international community knew this and did nothing.

2723
02:50:41,440 --> 02:50:44,600
Speaker 1: You know, there is and I believe it's in the

2724
02:50:44,640 --> 02:50:47,520
Speaker 1: Clinton tapes as well, but there's this thing about how

2725
02:50:48,120 --> 02:50:51,840
Speaker 1: they had provided aerial footage of the massacres that were

2726
02:50:51,840 --> 02:50:55,600
Speaker 1: being that were being enacted in places like Pittgal and

2727
02:50:55,760 --> 02:51:01,040
Speaker 1: Swannique where oh my god, depare military served forces did

2728
02:51:01,160 --> 02:51:06,959
Speaker 1: some horri horrifying acts of like violence and torture against

2729
02:51:06,959 --> 02:51:11,920
Speaker 1: the civilians. UM. And they had you know, showed it

2730
02:51:11,959 --> 02:51:14,840
Speaker 1: to the Clintons, and they showed it to the French

2731
02:51:14,920 --> 02:51:18,400
Speaker 1: and the English, and they did nothing. You know, they

2732
02:51:18,520 --> 02:51:24,360
Speaker 1: knew that a genocide was unfolding, UM. And the Dayton

2733
02:51:24,440 --> 02:51:32,240
Speaker 1: Peace Agreement wasn't signed until so the international UM community

2734
02:51:32,440 --> 02:51:38,400
Speaker 1: I think as just as much of a responsibility in

2735
02:51:38,920 --> 02:51:43,720
Speaker 1: the you know, the genocide of the Bosniaks as Serbia does,

2736
02:51:43,800 --> 02:51:46,400
Speaker 1: because they sat there and they watched when they had

2737
02:51:46,440 --> 02:51:49,280
Speaker 1: all the power to stop it. They always had the

2738
02:51:49,280 --> 02:51:51,120
Speaker 1: power to stop it. They had the power to stop

2739
02:51:51,120 --> 02:51:55,320
Speaker 1: it before it even before even one person got killed, UM.

2740
02:51:55,480 --> 02:52:00,600
Speaker 1: And and two they it's not even that they just watched,

2741
02:52:00,920 --> 02:52:06,039
Speaker 1: it's that they purposely left the Muslims defenseless because Serbia

2742
02:52:06,120 --> 02:52:11,480
Speaker 1: had all the Yugoslav army, all the weapons, all the

2743
02:52:11,800 --> 02:52:14,080
Speaker 1: you know, everything, all the tools that they needed to

2744
02:52:14,120 --> 02:52:16,879
Speaker 1: commit Jenna's side, they already had it, and all the

2745
02:52:17,000 --> 02:52:22,760
Speaker 1: arsenal everything, UM. And you the was army was like

2746
02:52:22,840 --> 02:52:24,800
Speaker 1: the most powerful in the region at the time. And

2747
02:52:24,840 --> 02:52:30,080
Speaker 1: I think the fourth third third or fourth most powerful

2748
02:52:30,280 --> 02:52:35,640
Speaker 1: in like the Europe Turkey areas, so we you know,

2749
02:52:35,920 --> 02:52:40,720
Speaker 1: quite a powerful army. And there was Bosnia which had

2750
02:52:41,000 --> 02:52:45,560
Speaker 1: no weapons, no military um. You know, you see these

2751
02:52:45,600 --> 02:52:51,120
Speaker 1: pictures of like civilians fighting against you know, tanks and

2752
02:52:52,400 --> 02:52:56,160
Speaker 1: mortar shells and snipers, and it's like these you know,

2753
02:52:56,680 --> 02:53:00,120
Speaker 1: youths basically and like converse and jeans and like an

2754
02:53:00,200 --> 02:53:05,360
Speaker 1: army jacket playing soldier because that's all we had. You know,

2755
02:53:05,400 --> 02:53:09,080
Speaker 1: we had the homemade weapons, we had, um, you know,

2756
02:53:09,240 --> 02:53:13,840
Speaker 1: how to make your own bomb books kind of thing,

2757
02:53:13,959 --> 02:53:19,440
Speaker 1: and trying to basically descend ourselves with anything that we could. Um.

2758
02:53:19,600 --> 02:53:25,760
Speaker 1: They specifically did not lift the arms embargo, knowing that

2759
02:53:25,840 --> 02:53:29,320
Speaker 1: they were leaving us defenseless. Like they just knew there

2760
02:53:29,400 --> 02:53:32,480
Speaker 1: was no way. There's no doubt on everything that we

2761
02:53:32,520 --> 02:53:37,400
Speaker 1: have read about the international community response, everything that Clinton

2762
02:53:37,640 --> 02:53:43,959
Speaker 1: mackand John mayor Major Major um not mayor Major have

2763
02:53:44,080 --> 02:53:48,440
Speaker 1: said you know about it during that period shows us

2764
02:53:48,520 --> 02:53:50,920
Speaker 1: that they absolutely knew that we were defenseless, you know.

2765
02:53:51,160 --> 02:53:54,240
Speaker 1: And this wasn't you know a lot of people say

2766
02:53:54,360 --> 02:53:57,680
Speaker 1: I didn't know about the Boss Angela side, but it

2767
02:53:58,200 --> 02:54:02,440
Speaker 1: was discussed. You know. I looked at the archived footage. Um,

2768
02:54:02,480 --> 02:54:04,959
Speaker 1: it was talked about it on television, it was brought

2769
02:54:05,040 --> 02:54:08,080
Speaker 1: up in parliament and incentive that was people at the

2770
02:54:08,120 --> 02:54:11,879
Speaker 1: time who are like, why are we leaving the Bosnians

2771
02:54:11,920 --> 02:54:15,600
Speaker 1: defense lives? Why are we you know, not helping them,

2772
02:54:16,320 --> 02:54:18,480
Speaker 1: Why are we allowing them to be allowed into slaughter?

2773
02:54:18,640 --> 02:54:20,879
Speaker 1: This is genocide blah blah blah. So even as early

2774
02:54:20,879 --> 02:54:24,240
Speaker 1: as there was still people who knew about this stuff,

2775
02:54:24,680 --> 02:54:29,200
Speaker 1: we're telling the leaders but nothing. Yeah, I think I

2776
02:54:29,240 --> 02:54:31,040
Speaker 1: think like that part also, like it's it's not just

2777
02:54:31,080 --> 02:54:34,000
Speaker 1: that like they did nothing like they like they did

2778
02:54:34,000 --> 02:54:36,800
Speaker 1: worse than doing nothing, like Mitterran's actively cheering it on,

2779
02:54:37,280 --> 02:54:41,080
Speaker 1: Like you know, the arms embargo is just like the

2780
02:54:41,160 --> 02:54:45,680
Speaker 1: arms embargo if you're applying in arms embargo on a

2781
02:54:45,800 --> 02:54:48,480
Speaker 1: conflict where one people one side has tanks and the

2782
02:54:48,520 --> 02:54:52,040
Speaker 1: other side has like molotovs, like you are actively supporting

2783
02:54:52,040 --> 02:54:54,280
Speaker 1: one of the sides. And I think that like that

2784
02:54:54,440 --> 02:54:58,880
Speaker 1: just like is completely lost in how like almost everyone

2785
02:54:59,080 --> 02:55:03,240
Speaker 1: seems to talk about the now because there's like you know,

2786
02:55:03,480 --> 02:55:05,840
Speaker 1: because because when you sort of get like interventions later,

2787
02:55:06,040 --> 02:55:08,600
Speaker 1: like people are like, oh, look, the wester was like

2788
02:55:08,640 --> 02:55:10,920
Speaker 1: planning to intervene here, the whole time, and it's like no,

2789
02:55:11,200 --> 02:55:16,400
Speaker 1: like they were literally cheering, was cheering. Like it's like,

2790
02:55:17,000 --> 02:55:20,879
Speaker 1: it's so frustrating because you know, we you take what

2791
02:55:20,959 --> 02:55:24,320
Speaker 1: we know about. And here's the thing. I know that

2792
02:55:24,440 --> 02:55:30,280
Speaker 1: Islamophobia escalated after nine eleven, but Islamophobia has existed for

2793
02:55:30,360 --> 02:55:33,720
Speaker 1: a very long time. And I think talked to the

2794
02:55:33,760 --> 02:55:37,520
Speaker 1: black Muslims of America, they will tell you more, you know,

2795
02:55:37,560 --> 02:55:39,640
Speaker 1: better than than I could ever tell you about the

2796
02:55:39,680 --> 02:55:44,120
Speaker 1: history of Islamophobia in the United States. So it's Alamophobia

2797
02:55:44,200 --> 02:55:48,240
Speaker 1: was always an aspect of life. And in Europe, Islamophobia

2798
02:55:48,360 --> 02:55:51,680
Speaker 1: just like anti Semitism. I mean, it is like the

2799
02:55:51,800 --> 02:55:57,400
Speaker 1: staple of European cultural cuisine. So to say yeah, it's

2800
02:55:57,440 --> 02:55:59,560
Speaker 1: like it's like yeah, it's like there's a there's a

2801
02:55:59,600 --> 02:56:01,160
Speaker 1: there's an they have they have like they have like

2802
02:56:01,200 --> 02:56:03,520
Speaker 1: the like the the tri force of Europeans, of European

2803
02:56:03,520 --> 02:56:10,400
Speaker 1: civilization is anti Semitism, Islamophobia and hating the Roma. Just

2804
02:56:10,480 --> 02:56:14,480
Speaker 1: like however the force. And so I think the sort

2805
02:56:14,520 --> 02:56:20,960
Speaker 1: of thing about the explicitness of European leadership, especially at

2806
02:56:20,959 --> 02:56:25,920
Speaker 1: the time in in you know, effectively ensuring that we

2807
02:56:25,920 --> 02:56:30,600
Speaker 1: were killed off because in Muslim country in Europe could

2808
02:56:30,640 --> 02:56:35,000
Speaker 1: not exist. And that's the thing that they said, literally

2809
02:56:35,000 --> 02:56:41,280
Speaker 1: set a Muslim country in Europe cannot exist. Like the

2810
02:56:41,360 --> 02:56:44,760
Speaker 1: fact that that was so open and brazen like kind

2811
02:56:44,800 --> 02:56:47,640
Speaker 1: of takes me back, but it really like tells you

2812
02:56:47,879 --> 02:56:53,480
Speaker 1: how much Islamophobia informed. I think the international community responds

2813
02:56:53,560 --> 02:56:56,080
Speaker 1: on this, and it's so interesting to me now. I

2814
02:56:56,120 --> 02:56:58,680
Speaker 1: think I've seen it over the past, I would say,

2815
02:56:58,760 --> 02:57:03,120
Speaker 1: especially five years, the sort of leftist genocide and sort

2816
02:57:03,160 --> 02:57:08,200
Speaker 1: of leftist anti imperialist kind of defense of Miloshevich and

2817
02:57:08,840 --> 02:57:10,560
Speaker 1: oh they were the you know, the Serbs were the

2818
02:57:10,600 --> 02:57:12,960
Speaker 1: actual victims blah blah blah and NATO blah blah blah,

2819
02:57:12,959 --> 02:57:16,360
Speaker 1: Western intervention. And I'm just like, oh, my god, read

2820
02:57:16,400 --> 02:57:19,720
Speaker 1: a book, read an article from that, read their actual quotes.

2821
02:57:20,120 --> 02:57:24,120
Speaker 1: There's no way that you can actually convince me that Europe,

2822
02:57:24,720 --> 02:57:28,760
Speaker 1: fortress Europe, and the United States of America would do

2823
02:57:28,920 --> 02:57:32,520
Speaker 1: anything that would benefit, you know, the Muslims. Was this

2824
02:57:32,600 --> 02:57:34,080
Speaker 1: what was one of the things I think was it's

2825
02:57:34,160 --> 02:57:36,920
Speaker 1: really interesting to me about the way that the sort

2826
02:57:36,920 --> 02:57:39,200
Speaker 1: of like left shandi sides nihilism works, like it always

2827
02:57:39,240 --> 02:57:41,640
Speaker 1: seems to be roogins lomophobia, like and I remember started

2828
02:57:41,680 --> 02:57:44,959
Speaker 1: seeing this with Bosnia to where they're like, oh, yeah, well,

2829
02:57:45,000 --> 02:57:47,119
Speaker 1: it's it's because it's because what's okay, they have two things.

2830
02:57:47,200 --> 02:57:49,360
Speaker 1: One it's like, well, the Bossians were Nazis been the

2831
02:57:49,360 --> 02:57:51,680
Speaker 1: second one was that, oh well the boss the Bossians

2832
02:57:51,680 --> 02:57:54,280
Speaker 1: were like altra hottists. And it's like, it's the exact

2833
02:57:54,280 --> 02:57:56,039
Speaker 1: same thing you see with China. And it's like, oh,

2834
02:57:56,160 --> 02:58:00,800
Speaker 1: it's because all the weakers are like lafi Jo hottest

2835
02:58:00,800 --> 02:58:05,080
Speaker 1: iss c I A. And it's like no, yeah, I

2836
02:58:05,120 --> 02:58:09,720
Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's honestly laughable at this point. It

2837
02:58:09,800 --> 02:58:12,400
Speaker 1: really is. And it also just you know, obviously I'm

2838
02:58:12,400 --> 02:58:15,640
Speaker 1: a leftist. You know, I'm gonna cheer the left on

2839
02:58:15,959 --> 02:58:18,680
Speaker 1: to an extent, but that is my red line. The

2840
02:58:18,800 --> 02:58:22,040
Speaker 1: genocide analyism really is my red line. And the reason

2841
02:58:22,080 --> 02:58:24,840
Speaker 1: it's it's, you know, my red line isn't just because

2842
02:58:24,840 --> 02:58:27,720
Speaker 1: I'm a genocide survivor, but because it's like, oh, for

2843
02:58:27,800 --> 02:58:32,400
Speaker 1: god's sake, the data, the statistics, the research, the forensic

2844
02:58:32,600 --> 02:58:39,640
Speaker 1: the analysis, the specific quotes, videos, articles, uh, you know,

2845
02:58:39,720 --> 02:58:41,960
Speaker 1: all of those things exist and are out there, and

2846
02:58:42,000 --> 02:58:44,040
Speaker 1: all you have to do is actually do your research

2847
02:58:44,080 --> 02:58:46,040
Speaker 1: and you will find out that actually know you're in

2848
02:58:46,080 --> 02:58:48,760
Speaker 1: the wrong. And the other thing is what you just

2849
02:58:48,800 --> 02:58:51,480
Speaker 1: said about the sort of thing of painting you know,

2850
02:58:51,520 --> 02:58:54,320
Speaker 1: the Muslims is like the Nazis and the you know,

2851
02:58:54,440 --> 02:58:58,720
Speaker 1: the extremist um. You know. The thing about like the

2852
02:58:58,800 --> 02:59:02,560
Speaker 1: Bassian Muslims is like, we don't hide the fact that

2853
02:59:02,600 --> 02:59:07,440
Speaker 1: there were people of our community that participated in Nazi crimes.

2854
02:59:07,800 --> 02:59:12,879
Speaker 1: There isn't this goal of concealing those crimes, of minimizing

2855
02:59:12,959 --> 02:59:16,600
Speaker 1: the crimes or pretending that they were right. Um, there

2856
02:59:16,720 --> 02:59:19,640
Speaker 1: is I'm sure a French group of people who defend

2857
02:59:19,680 --> 02:59:22,120
Speaker 1: these kinds of people, like there is a French when

2858
02:59:22,120 --> 02:59:26,800
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the collective sort of Bosnian um, you know,

2859
02:59:26,920 --> 02:59:30,680
Speaker 1: state level response as well as like an individual response

2860
02:59:30,879 --> 02:59:36,000
Speaker 1: is that the you know, the Nazi division had like

2861
02:59:36,120 --> 02:59:41,320
Speaker 1: seventeen thousand Bosnian soldiers and there's millions of Bosnians in

2862
02:59:41,320 --> 02:59:45,800
Speaker 1: the country. The vast majority ended up joining the Partisans

2863
02:59:45,879 --> 02:59:49,160
Speaker 1: and stood against the Nazis. And the thing is, you

2864
02:59:49,200 --> 02:59:53,000
Speaker 1: can't when it comes to Yugoslavia and World War Two

2865
02:59:53,040 --> 02:59:55,879
Speaker 1: and the Holocaust, you can't just say that the Bosnians

2866
02:59:55,879 --> 02:59:58,840
Speaker 1: were Nazi leboration is because the thing is, so were

2867
02:59:58,840 --> 03:00:02,120
Speaker 1: the Serbians. So are the Serbs, so are the Croats.

2868
03:00:02,720 --> 03:00:06,040
Speaker 1: At that time, Let's be honest, who the hell wasn't

2869
03:00:06,160 --> 03:00:09,560
Speaker 1: a Nazi collaboration is now it just doesn't excuse it,

2870
03:00:10,160 --> 03:00:13,800
Speaker 1: absolutely not. But what it does sort of show is

2871
03:00:13,840 --> 03:00:18,160
Speaker 1: that that history, that period um in Yugoslav history is

2872
03:00:18,320 --> 03:00:21,520
Speaker 1: really complicated because you know, you had the Gusta sia

2873
03:00:22,280 --> 03:00:25,520
Speaker 1: Um and then you had the Chechniques and then there's

2874
03:00:25,520 --> 03:00:27,760
Speaker 1: a period where the Chechniks were against us the Sha

2875
03:00:27,959 --> 03:00:30,480
Speaker 1: right because like used to show we're killing Serbs and

2876
03:00:30,640 --> 03:00:33,560
Speaker 1: Romans and Jews. But then the Chechniques turned around and

2877
03:00:33,760 --> 03:00:36,879
Speaker 1: there you know, these Serb nationalists, they start killing the

2878
03:00:36,959 --> 03:00:39,640
Speaker 1: Jews and the Roma and then they start working with

2879
03:00:39,640 --> 03:00:42,080
Speaker 1: the hand down the Jews in the Roman and then

2880
03:00:42,120 --> 03:00:46,040
Speaker 1: they start working with them to stand against the you know,

2881
03:00:46,400 --> 03:00:51,720
Speaker 1: the Tito's Partisans Um. Meanwhile, you know Tito's Partisans had

2882
03:00:52,879 --> 03:00:59,760
Speaker 1: a multi ethnic coalition like and we're talking about Serbs, Bosnians, Romans,

2883
03:01:00,120 --> 03:01:04,880
Speaker 1: use Croats, Albanians, you know, all sorts of people who

2884
03:01:05,000 --> 03:01:11,200
Speaker 1: were very like, you know, anti Nazism. So you know,

2885
03:01:11,240 --> 03:01:14,600
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna we're gonna win, We're gonna rebuild our

2886
03:01:14,680 --> 03:01:18,720
Speaker 1: our country, we're gonna you know, make this beautiful sort

2887
03:01:18,760 --> 03:01:21,680
Speaker 1: of you know, multi ethnic kind of state, which they did,

2888
03:01:21,920 --> 03:01:24,880
Speaker 1: which is amazing. But yeah, but it is a complicated

2889
03:01:24,920 --> 03:01:27,160
Speaker 1: sort of piece of history. So you can't really say, oh, yes,

2890
03:01:27,240 --> 03:01:31,320
Speaker 1: they're the Nazi collaborationists because um, at some point or

2891
03:01:31,360 --> 03:01:36,560
Speaker 1: not everybody was, and at some point or not everybody was. Also. Yeah,

2892
03:01:36,680 --> 03:01:38,480
Speaker 1: it's like like it's when when when you when you

2893
03:01:38,520 --> 03:01:43,560
Speaker 1: start getting into like it becomes this like you know,

2894
03:01:43,920 --> 03:01:48,800
Speaker 1: it becomes a way of just getting people to I

2895
03:01:48,800 --> 03:01:51,560
Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it, like, you know, when

2896
03:01:51,560 --> 03:01:59,120
Speaker 1: when when it starts being like this specific ethnic group

2897
03:01:59,240 --> 03:02:02,640
Speaker 1: as a whole is responsible for all of these crimes.

2898
03:02:02,640 --> 03:02:05,520
Speaker 1: Just like no, they're not like that's that's not that's

2899
03:02:05,520 --> 03:02:08,240
Speaker 1: not how this works. Like it's not like like like

2900
03:02:08,320 --> 03:02:10,440
Speaker 1: they're like there are like there, Yeah, there's gonna be

2901
03:02:10,440 --> 03:02:12,360
Speaker 1: people in the ethnic group who did things that were awful.

2902
03:02:12,400 --> 03:02:15,560
Speaker 1: There's also going to be people, especially especially in inaction

2903
03:02:15,600 --> 03:02:18,240
Speaker 1: like this, there's there's a lot a lot of probably

2904
03:02:18,240 --> 03:02:22,640
Speaker 1: more people who fought them. Yeah. Yeah, that's such an

2905
03:02:22,640 --> 03:02:26,000
Speaker 1: interesting statement because I'm going to compare to the Bosnian

2906
03:02:26,120 --> 03:02:31,080
Speaker 1: response after the genocide, which has consistently been No, we

2907
03:02:31,160 --> 03:02:34,360
Speaker 1: don't believe that every single service bad, and we are

2908
03:02:34,400 --> 03:02:37,240
Speaker 1: only talking about those that took place, took part in

2909
03:02:37,280 --> 03:02:41,360
Speaker 1: these crimes, and those that concealed them. And that has

2910
03:02:41,440 --> 03:02:45,959
Speaker 1: always been the collective and state level response of all Bosans.

2911
03:02:47,240 --> 03:02:49,760
Speaker 1: Now you have to think about I have a friend

2912
03:02:50,040 --> 03:02:57,600
Speaker 1: who's who, who's nine members of her family were killed

2913
03:02:57,640 --> 03:03:04,800
Speaker 1: in Stubberty in July. That's an absorbinate number of people.

2914
03:03:05,480 --> 03:03:09,680
Speaker 1: These were women, children, and men and elderly. There was

2915
03:03:09,720 --> 03:03:13,240
Speaker 1: no discrimination when it kim comes to her. I've sat

2916
03:03:13,280 --> 03:03:16,760
Speaker 1: with her as she's read all the names of her,

2917
03:03:17,160 --> 03:03:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, killed family members. That woman, with all the

2918
03:03:20,400 --> 03:03:22,960
Speaker 1: pain that she survived with being there as a young

2919
03:03:23,040 --> 03:03:26,120
Speaker 1: girl in the midst of genocide, in the midst of

2920
03:03:26,160 --> 03:03:31,840
Speaker 1: these her horrifying crimes, has never once publicly or privately

2921
03:03:31,920 --> 03:03:34,040
Speaker 1: to me said, yes, old serbs are the same, Yes,

2922
03:03:34,080 --> 03:03:36,000
Speaker 1: all of them are war criminals. Yes all of them

2923
03:03:36,040 --> 03:03:39,440
Speaker 1: hate us, absolutely not. And the thing is, I think

2924
03:03:39,440 --> 03:03:43,680
Speaker 1: about myself as well, Like you know, my earliest childhood

2925
03:03:43,720 --> 03:03:47,000
Speaker 1: memories me being shot at by a sniper, knowing my

2926
03:03:47,080 --> 03:03:50,920
Speaker 1: father was in a concentration camp, knowing that my grandmother

2927
03:03:51,000 --> 03:03:54,000
Speaker 1: was just killed by a bomb, um knowing that, you know,

2928
03:03:54,040 --> 03:03:57,760
Speaker 1: my biological dad was dying in a hospital from an attack,

2929
03:03:57,800 --> 03:04:00,400
Speaker 1: and my mother could also be killed because she was

2930
03:04:00,400 --> 03:04:02,560
Speaker 1: pregnant with my brother at the time. And so these

2931
03:04:02,560 --> 03:04:06,959
Speaker 1: are my earliest childhood memories. Um, they're not very happy memories.

2932
03:04:07,400 --> 03:04:10,840
Speaker 1: And I know why those things happened, you know, I

2933
03:04:10,920 --> 03:04:12,959
Speaker 1: know why I was being shot at by a sniper,

2934
03:04:12,959 --> 03:04:14,680
Speaker 1: and it was because I was bossy, and it it

2935
03:04:14,760 --> 03:04:17,320
Speaker 1: was because I was Muslin, and because I was seen

2936
03:04:17,320 --> 03:04:19,680
Speaker 1: as the enemy, even though I was you know, a

2937
03:04:19,720 --> 03:04:22,840
Speaker 1: little kid at you know, six seven years old, um,

2938
03:04:22,879 --> 03:04:25,320
Speaker 1: and absolutely not a threat to anyone, and nobody should

2939
03:04:25,320 --> 03:04:28,680
Speaker 1: have been shooting at me. They did anyway, Even though

2940
03:04:28,760 --> 03:04:33,279
Speaker 1: that happened, I never had that feeling of all serbs

2941
03:04:33,320 --> 03:04:35,360
Speaker 1: are awful. All serbs are you know, I'm going to

2942
03:04:35,440 --> 03:04:39,160
Speaker 1: paint them all with a brush. But a lot of them, unfortunately,

2943
03:04:39,280 --> 03:04:43,160
Speaker 1: especially on the you know, the the ultra nationalists that

2944
03:04:43,200 --> 03:04:46,280
Speaker 1: continue to not just the night the Genis night, but

2945
03:04:46,320 --> 03:04:51,360
Speaker 1: also glorified and celebrate it. They do paint everyone with

2946
03:04:51,400 --> 03:04:54,720
Speaker 1: the same brush, you know. And and the worst thing,

2947
03:04:54,879 --> 03:04:57,360
Speaker 1: the funniest thing, is that they paint themselves with the

2948
03:04:57,400 --> 03:05:00,320
Speaker 1: same brush. You know, they they think that they to

2949
03:05:00,360 --> 03:05:05,039
Speaker 1: speak for every single serve person um, and that's the

2950
03:05:05,080 --> 03:05:09,240
Speaker 1: tragic path. Like I'm not, I'm not. I get accused

2951
03:05:09,280 --> 03:05:12,240
Speaker 1: of like constantly talking about serves and I'm like, I

2952
03:05:12,320 --> 03:05:15,200
Speaker 1: absolutely am not. I'm talking about the nationalists that I

2953
03:05:15,240 --> 03:05:20,520
Speaker 1: will call out all the nationalists, whether they're CAUSI Inserpient, Croatian, American, whatever,

2954
03:05:21,000 --> 03:05:24,959
Speaker 1: but we're talking about you know, what you're doing to

2955
03:05:25,080 --> 03:05:29,160
Speaker 1: me and your response to my criticism of nationalism is

2956
03:05:29,200 --> 03:05:32,480
Speaker 1: actually the thing that's ruining your reputation. Yeah, it's it's

2957
03:05:32,520 --> 03:05:34,760
Speaker 1: the it's it's deth the nationals, caamp it, it's it's

2958
03:05:34,879 --> 03:05:37,320
Speaker 1: you have you have to conflate all of the individual people,

2959
03:05:37,600 --> 03:05:39,280
Speaker 1: the ethnic group, and the state. They all they all

2960
03:05:39,280 --> 03:05:40,400
Speaker 1: have to be this like you know, this must be

2961
03:05:40,480 --> 03:05:43,360
Speaker 1: this organic totality and it's not true. It's just not.

2962
03:05:43,400 --> 03:05:45,480
Speaker 1: But that's you know, that's that's that's the sort of

2963
03:05:46,160 --> 03:05:48,920
Speaker 1: it's it's the motus apperanda behind their entire ideology, and

2964
03:05:48,920 --> 03:05:52,560
Speaker 1: it's what they deploy, you know, it's what they deploy

2965
03:05:52,560 --> 03:05:54,480
Speaker 1: when the genocides, is what they deploy when they have

2966
03:05:54,560 --> 03:06:00,800
Speaker 1: to sort of like you know, sort of promoted openly

2967
03:06:00,879 --> 03:06:05,200
Speaker 1: or less openly afterwards. Yeah, it's like that justification, it's

2968
03:06:05,240 --> 03:06:10,160
Speaker 1: how they justify it, I know. And like we all

2969
03:06:10,200 --> 03:06:16,640
Speaker 1: know about the ten stages of genocide, but my colleague Um,

2970
03:06:16,760 --> 03:06:25,240
Speaker 1: who's brilliant actually has often talked about that denihalism is

2971
03:06:25,280 --> 03:06:29,560
Speaker 1: not really the final stage of genocide. It is in

2972
03:06:29,640 --> 03:06:34,640
Speaker 1: fact triumphalism, Um, And that's what we're actually seeing in Bosnia.

2973
03:06:34,760 --> 03:06:39,080
Speaker 1: You know, we're not I get genocide denialism from American

2974
03:06:39,200 --> 03:06:43,560
Speaker 1: leftists and like British leftists who are on a certain spectrum,

2975
03:06:43,640 --> 03:06:52,160
Speaker 1: and obviously I don't get genocide denialism from ethno nationalist Serbs.

2976
03:06:52,200 --> 03:06:56,839
Speaker 1: What I get from them actually is very openly celebrating

2977
03:06:57,000 --> 03:07:01,560
Speaker 1: and threatening another genocide. They're not in my mentions saying,

2978
03:07:01,560 --> 03:07:05,520
Speaker 1: oh there was no genocide, uh, Darren, my mentions saying

2979
03:07:05,680 --> 03:07:08,040
Speaker 1: no one shoots a Staba and so, which is basically

2980
03:07:08,040 --> 03:07:11,800
Speaker 1: a slogan that says knife fire, Serboniza, and it's like

2981
03:07:12,320 --> 03:07:15,920
Speaker 1: basically a threat that another Sherebania will occur. They're in

2982
03:07:16,000 --> 03:07:18,760
Speaker 1: my mentions, in my emails and in my d MS

2983
03:07:19,280 --> 03:07:22,039
Speaker 1: sending me threats about how they can't wait till I'm

2984
03:07:22,080 --> 03:07:25,160
Speaker 1: put in a rape camp again. How they can't wait

2985
03:07:25,240 --> 03:07:28,640
Speaker 1: untill they kill my family, until sorry ever gets bombed again,

2986
03:07:28,680 --> 03:07:31,640
Speaker 1: and how you know we're they're gonna finish the job.

2987
03:07:31,879 --> 03:07:35,240
Speaker 1: How Rat is a hero because he killed all those

2988
03:07:35,640 --> 03:07:39,360
Speaker 1: you know people in Serbonizza and sorry able to be sugared. Um.

2989
03:07:39,560 --> 03:07:41,920
Speaker 1: Kata Juch is a hero because he's the same Inlshi,

2990
03:07:41,959 --> 03:07:44,880
Speaker 1: which is a hero because he believes in a greater Serbia.

2991
03:07:45,400 --> 03:07:49,720
Speaker 1: These people don't hide it, um, And that's the thing.

2992
03:07:49,840 --> 03:07:54,160
Speaker 1: So it's it's very like just today, you know, first

2993
03:07:54,200 --> 03:07:56,480
Speaker 1: thing in the morning, I opened my Twitter and the

2994
03:07:56,520 --> 03:08:01,880
Speaker 1: first thing that I see is a bossy activist arrested

2995
03:08:01,959 --> 03:08:05,720
Speaker 1: for protesting the dot com Latch mural which the Serbian

2996
03:08:05,800 --> 03:08:13,080
Speaker 1: police were guarding. They were guarding a mural get like

2997
03:08:13,120 --> 03:08:17,080
Speaker 1: a mural of a war criminal who committed genocide, who

2998
03:08:17,280 --> 03:08:22,560
Speaker 1: who everybody knows committed genocide, a mural glorifying him. They

2999
03:08:22,600 --> 03:08:26,440
Speaker 1: were got the police were guarding you know, the mural

3000
03:08:26,959 --> 03:08:31,200
Speaker 1: and inflicting damage on innocent civilians who were there too,

3001
03:08:31,560 --> 03:08:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, protest against the mural. And so I think

3002
03:08:34,040 --> 03:08:39,040
Speaker 1: that really tells you so much the issue in the Balkans.

3003
03:08:39,959 --> 03:08:42,640
Speaker 1: This has when it could happen here join us tomorrow

3004
03:08:42,640 --> 03:08:45,320
Speaker 1: for part two of this interview, which we discuss the

3005
03:08:45,440 --> 03:08:48,680
Speaker 1: dangers of what's currently happening in Bosnia. In the meantime,

3006
03:08:49,320 --> 03:08:52,800
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter it Happened Here pod, and you

3007
03:08:52,840 --> 03:08:55,840
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter and Instagram for the rest

3008
03:08:55,879 --> 03:09:07,640
Speaker 1: of our shows at cool Zone Media. I'm Colleen with

3009
03:09:08,120 --> 03:09:11,120
Speaker 1: Join me the host of Eating Wall Broke podcast while

3010
03:09:11,160 --> 03:09:14,920
Speaker 1: I eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers

3011
03:09:15,000 --> 03:09:17,360
Speaker 1: and celebrities over a meal they once eight when they

3012
03:09:17,360 --> 03:09:20,120
Speaker 1: were broke. Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the

3013
03:09:20,200 --> 03:09:24,879
Speaker 1: official Princess of comfin Asia, Kid and Asia. This is

3014
03:09:24,920 --> 03:09:27,800
Speaker 1: the professor. We're here on Eating Wall Broken. Today, I'm

3015
03:09:27,800 --> 03:09:30,560
Speaker 1: gonna break down my meal that got me through a

3016
03:09:30,680 --> 03:09:33,360
Speaker 1: time when I was broken. Listen to Eating Wall Broke

3017
03:09:33,400 --> 03:09:36,240
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcast or

3018
03:09:36,240 --> 03:09:41,080
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. What grows in the forest trees,

3019
03:09:41,520 --> 03:09:44,879
Speaker 1: Sure you know what else grows in the forest. Our imagination,

3020
03:09:45,200 --> 03:09:48,480
Speaker 1: our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too,

3021
03:09:48,720 --> 03:09:53,720
Speaker 1: because when we disconnect from this and connect with this,

3022
03:09:55,120 --> 03:09:58,600
Speaker 1: we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than

3023
03:09:58,640 --> 03:10:02,039
Speaker 1: you think. Find a four rest near you and start exploring.

3024
03:10:02,160 --> 03:10:04,720
Speaker 1: I discover the fourth dot Org, brought to you by

3025
03:10:04,760 --> 03:10:13,960
Speaker 1: the United States Fourth Service and the AD Council. What

3026
03:10:14,080 --> 03:10:17,880
Speaker 1: Could It Could Happen? Here a podcast about bad things

3027
03:10:17,920 --> 03:10:20,000
Speaker 1: happening and how they can continue to happen if you

3028
03:10:20,000 --> 03:10:24,920
Speaker 1: don't stop them. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and today

3029
03:10:24,920 --> 03:10:27,920
Speaker 1: we're doing part two of the interview with genocide expert

3030
03:10:27,959 --> 03:10:31,320
Speaker 1: Arness Acustra, focusing on the absolutely horrifying things that have

3031
03:10:31,360 --> 03:10:33,640
Speaker 1: been happening in Bosnia recently. Is you and if you

3032
03:10:33,680 --> 03:10:36,039
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy can can you give an explanation of

3033
03:10:36,080 --> 03:10:39,840
Speaker 1: what's happened in the last couple of weeks because it's

3034
03:10:40,760 --> 03:10:44,880
Speaker 1: terrifying and I don't think enough people are talking about it. Yeah,

3035
03:10:45,040 --> 03:10:49,800
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, So that's where are we now? Uh,

3036
03:10:49,959 --> 03:10:52,720
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just going to talk briefly about the

3037
03:10:52,800 --> 03:10:55,600
Speaker 1: date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah, the audience

3038
03:10:55,560 --> 03:10:58,040
Speaker 1: speech to understand what the dating agreement is, and I

3039
03:10:58,120 --> 03:10:59,680
Speaker 1: was going to talk about it earlier, but I went

3040
03:10:59,680 --> 03:11:04,480
Speaker 1: off on a tangent, So my apologies. Um, so obviously

3041
03:11:04,800 --> 03:11:08,080
Speaker 1: you know where the war is happening, The genocide is happening,

3042
03:11:08,400 --> 03:11:13,600
Speaker 1: um Staverns. The worst of the genocide happens, you know

3043
03:11:14,320 --> 03:11:17,120
Speaker 1: eight thousand people are killed in just a matter of

3044
03:11:17,680 --> 03:11:22,480
Speaker 1: a few weeks, few days really, Um, the international community

3045
03:11:22,520 --> 03:11:26,879
Speaker 1: does not act at that time. UM. Towards the end

3046
03:11:26,959 --> 03:11:30,680
Speaker 1: of the year, another attack happens, since Sarievo and Marcalis

3047
03:11:30,720 --> 03:11:34,840
Speaker 1: civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit. I

3048
03:11:34,840 --> 03:11:39,240
Speaker 1: think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and that

3049
03:11:39,240 --> 03:11:43,240
Speaker 1: that's kind of when the international community starts to open

3050
03:11:43,280 --> 03:11:47,440
Speaker 1: their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not to

3051
03:11:47,560 --> 03:11:50,440
Speaker 1: bory with the details of no gagotiation process was absolutely

3052
03:11:50,480 --> 03:11:54,280
Speaker 1: ridiculous and every single time to discuss it, it was

3053
03:11:54,400 --> 03:11:58,480
Speaker 1: about splitting Bosnia down ethnic lines, and that's ultimately what

3054
03:11:58,600 --> 03:12:03,960
Speaker 1: happened with the eight In agreement. Yes, peace quote unquote

3055
03:12:04,280 --> 03:12:09,640
Speaker 1: peace was achieved, but the Dayton Agreement mandated so that

3056
03:12:11,280 --> 03:12:15,240
Speaker 1: there would be a three member presidency. So instead of

3057
03:12:15,280 --> 03:12:17,640
Speaker 1: having one president, we would have a three member presidency.

3058
03:12:17,760 --> 03:12:22,080
Speaker 1: It's a rotating presidency. There would be a Croat representative,

3059
03:12:22,400 --> 03:12:27,119
Speaker 1: a Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means

3060
03:12:27,120 --> 03:12:30,560
Speaker 1: that there's no representatives for anyone who's another whether it's

3061
03:12:30,560 --> 03:12:36,480
Speaker 1: the identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian, but not Boshnak like

3062
03:12:36,560 --> 03:12:40,160
Speaker 1: they you know, it's just there's no space for the

3063
03:12:40,200 --> 03:12:43,560
Speaker 1: other in this constitution with the state in peace agreement.

3064
03:12:43,640 --> 03:12:47,039
Speaker 1: But that's for another day. Um. They also split the

3065
03:12:47,040 --> 03:12:50,560
Speaker 1: country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides

3066
03:12:50,560 --> 03:12:53,720
Speaker 1: and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing

3067
03:12:54,160 --> 03:12:58,760
Speaker 1: all over eastern Bosnia up in the north. Um, you know,

3068
03:12:59,120 --> 03:13:03,800
Speaker 1: basically the interest national community said, good job, here's your

3069
03:13:03,840 --> 03:13:07,800
Speaker 1: own territory that you ethnically cleanse um. So they split

3070
03:13:07,879 --> 03:13:12,760
Speaker 1: the country down, you know, these ethnic lines, and uh,

3071
03:13:12,800 --> 03:13:14,640
Speaker 1: you know, the war stops. And then now we have

3072
03:13:14,720 --> 03:13:17,240
Speaker 1: to sort of contend with this you know, peace agreement

3073
03:13:17,280 --> 03:13:22,840
Speaker 1: with the new constitution. We we get this um called

3074
03:13:22,920 --> 03:13:26,880
Speaker 1: the OHR Office of the High Representative. The High Representative

3075
03:13:26,959 --> 03:13:30,840
Speaker 1: is basically a person who holds the highest power in

3076
03:13:30,920 --> 03:13:35,959
Speaker 1: the country. They're not a Bosnian. They're actually kind of um,

3077
03:13:36,000 --> 03:13:41,600
Speaker 1: they're put in place there by the international community. So

3078
03:13:41,800 --> 03:13:45,000
Speaker 1: the OHR kind of you know, comes and breaks us

3079
03:13:45,080 --> 03:13:48,520
Speaker 1: up when we're squabbling over issues. And this has been

3080
03:13:48,600 --> 03:13:53,760
Speaker 1: anything from things like the flag, like the new flag

3081
03:13:53,800 --> 03:13:57,440
Speaker 1: of Bosnia, the flag of Bosnia that was the flag

3082
03:13:57,480 --> 03:13:59,640
Speaker 1: of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because

3083
03:14:00,200 --> 03:14:03,000
Speaker 1: the OHR deans that it would be you know, offensive

3084
03:14:03,080 --> 03:14:06,320
Speaker 1: to the Serbs or the Croats um and the same

3085
03:14:06,320 --> 03:14:09,520
Speaker 1: thing was like the national anthem. So they hold a

3086
03:14:09,560 --> 03:14:17,240
Speaker 1: lot of power. Now just recently we switched a chart representative,

3087
03:14:17,320 --> 03:14:20,080
Speaker 1: so we have a new high representative. Before it was

3088
03:14:20,160 --> 03:14:25,000
Speaker 1: Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know,

3089
03:14:25,520 --> 03:14:30,360
Speaker 1: time as the High Representative was to enact a law

3090
03:14:30,520 --> 03:14:35,680
Speaker 1: against genocide denihalism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning

3091
03:14:35,680 --> 03:14:39,320
Speaker 1: for for years because you know, um, I think in

3092
03:14:39,480 --> 03:14:42,480
Speaker 1: your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever

3093
03:14:42,560 --> 03:14:45,200
Speaker 1: could you know happen to you, happen to you, where

3094
03:14:45,879 --> 03:14:48,879
Speaker 1: you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people

3095
03:14:48,879 --> 03:14:53,560
Speaker 1: were killed, Um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know,

3096
03:14:53,840 --> 03:14:58,400
Speaker 1: dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People

3097
03:14:58,520 --> 03:15:04,080
Speaker 1: want to be be able to you know, know the

3098
03:15:04,120 --> 03:15:07,280
Speaker 1: truth and and and and be feel safe with the truth.

3099
03:15:07,360 --> 03:15:10,600
Speaker 1: So the genocide denialism law was good. But this is

3100
03:15:10,680 --> 03:15:14,120
Speaker 1: kind of when things started to you know, shift a bit,

3101
03:15:14,320 --> 03:15:18,119
Speaker 1: because I think Dotta came out. Melanadte, who is currently

3102
03:15:18,160 --> 03:15:22,400
Speaker 1: the Serb member of the Presidency who controls the Bublical Subsco,

3103
03:15:22,560 --> 03:15:26,480
Speaker 1: which is the entity where that's considered the Serb entity,

3104
03:15:26,680 --> 03:15:30,680
Speaker 1: but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um, he came

3105
03:15:30,680 --> 03:15:32,800
Speaker 1: out and he said, well, if they passed the genocide

3106
03:15:32,800 --> 03:15:37,120
Speaker 1: denialism law, we're going to succede within eight days. And

3107
03:15:37,120 --> 03:15:41,760
Speaker 1: obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's the thing, um,

3108
03:15:42,320 --> 03:15:46,199
Speaker 1: Milanard Dodeck has been threatening succession for years now. This

3109
03:15:46,240 --> 03:15:52,240
Speaker 1: is not anything new. What is new is the fact

3110
03:15:52,520 --> 03:15:58,360
Speaker 1: that this time he seems to talk about not just

3111
03:15:58,440 --> 03:16:02,000
Speaker 1: talk and threaten about up succeeding, but actually has started

3112
03:16:02,000 --> 03:16:06,320
Speaker 1: to kind of drop the papers and not a not

3113
03:16:06,400 --> 03:16:09,840
Speaker 1: to legally succeed, which he is not allowed due to

3114
03:16:09,879 --> 03:16:13,320
Speaker 1: the date and agreement. Um, but he is. He has

3115
03:16:13,360 --> 03:16:15,440
Speaker 1: drought up the papers to start pulling out of all

3116
03:16:15,440 --> 03:16:19,880
Speaker 1: the national level. So you know, Bosnia is the country,

3117
03:16:20,200 --> 03:16:24,520
Speaker 1: republican subscuise and entity. The Federation is an entity, but

3118
03:16:24,640 --> 03:16:26,960
Speaker 1: both of them are accountable to the national sort of

3119
03:16:27,000 --> 03:16:31,120
Speaker 1: state level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know,

3120
03:16:31,280 --> 03:16:35,080
Speaker 1: been saying I'm gonna republica subscott Deserve. We're leaving, like

3121
03:16:35,120 --> 03:16:39,680
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna

3122
03:16:39,720 --> 03:16:44,400
Speaker 1: pull out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're

3123
03:16:44,400 --> 03:16:49,119
Speaker 1: gonna have serve only, you know, serve only. Courts, serve only, lawyers,

3124
03:16:49,160 --> 03:16:54,400
Speaker 1: serve only, justices, serve only, I don't know, passport, whatever,

3125
03:16:54,600 --> 03:16:59,480
Speaker 1: control serve basically anything that was at a national level,

3126
03:16:59,560 --> 03:17:02,560
Speaker 1: whether it's like a healthcare institution or like, I don't know,

3127
03:17:02,680 --> 03:17:07,800
Speaker 1: procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it

3128
03:17:07,959 --> 03:17:12,320
Speaker 1: as like serve only. Obviously, I think the dagger is

3129
03:17:12,720 --> 03:17:15,240
Speaker 1: right there. Served only. Where have we heard that before?

3130
03:17:15,320 --> 03:17:18,320
Speaker 1: We heard that nineties And the biggest sort of brad

3131
03:17:18,400 --> 03:17:22,080
Speaker 1: flag has really been this thing about them forming that

3132
03:17:22,200 --> 03:17:25,720
Speaker 1: a public scot army, and they're not even talking about

3133
03:17:25,720 --> 03:17:29,600
Speaker 1: forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words

3134
03:17:29,800 --> 03:17:34,200
Speaker 1: reforming that Republic of Scott Army. Now, the Republican of

3135
03:17:34,280 --> 03:17:38,720
Speaker 1: Scott Army, you know, was led by kaa In. These

3136
03:17:38,800 --> 03:17:42,360
Speaker 1: are the same people that put girls as young as

3137
03:17:42,760 --> 03:17:46,279
Speaker 1: ten and twelve years old into rape camps, that killed

3138
03:17:46,400 --> 03:17:49,760
Speaker 1: babies as old as you know a few months, that

3139
03:17:49,959 --> 03:17:53,800
Speaker 1: killed um, you know, elderly women as old as a

3140
03:17:53,879 --> 03:17:56,879
Speaker 1: hundred years old. You know, these these were the guys

3141
03:17:56,959 --> 03:18:01,800
Speaker 1: that were going village to village, city to city killing, torturing,

3142
03:18:02,560 --> 03:18:04,840
Speaker 1: bombing the hell out of Sorry though, these were the

3143
03:18:04,840 --> 03:18:09,200
Speaker 1: guys that you know, would throw like three thousand to

3144
03:18:09,280 --> 03:18:14,840
Speaker 1: four thousand mortar shells on SORRYO and snipe it. I

3145
03:18:14,879 --> 03:18:17,160
Speaker 1: don't even know how many times, like tens of thousand

3146
03:18:17,200 --> 03:18:21,440
Speaker 1: times per day. It's just these are the bad guys basically.

3147
03:18:21,800 --> 03:18:25,560
Speaker 1: Um So, I think there's an alarm right now going

3148
03:18:25,600 --> 03:18:28,039
Speaker 1: in Bosnia. And it is the reason why so many

3149
03:18:28,080 --> 03:18:31,680
Speaker 1: of us are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand,

3150
03:18:32,800 --> 03:18:35,160
Speaker 1: he has threatened, he has made you know, Don has

3151
03:18:35,200 --> 03:18:40,640
Speaker 1: made plenty of rest before. But on the other hand,

3152
03:18:40,920 --> 03:18:45,920
Speaker 1: in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved.

3153
03:18:46,040 --> 03:18:49,600
Speaker 1: You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has

3154
03:18:49,640 --> 03:18:52,640
Speaker 1: scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill

3155
03:18:52,640 --> 03:18:55,959
Speaker 1: out otherwise you know, Sorbia doesn't get into the EU.

3156
03:18:56,520 --> 03:19:00,080
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's always been some sort of of

3157
03:19:00,200 --> 03:19:03,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, influence there, the o h r's influence

3158
03:19:03,280 --> 03:19:09,440
Speaker 1: as well. But in recent years the international community has

3159
03:19:09,600 --> 03:19:15,320
Speaker 1: not stood by its responsibility to the date agreement. I mean,

3160
03:19:15,360 --> 03:19:20,320
Speaker 1: here's the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it

3161
03:19:20,360 --> 03:19:23,200
Speaker 1: so that we, the Bosnia's have to abide by it,

3162
03:19:25,120 --> 03:19:27,760
Speaker 1: but they also have a responsibility to ensure that it

3163
03:19:27,840 --> 03:19:31,440
Speaker 1: is actually being upheld and that they're doing their jobs

3164
03:19:31,480 --> 03:19:34,560
Speaker 1: in importance with the international like with the Date and Agreement,

3165
03:19:34,680 --> 03:19:37,119
Speaker 1: so you know, the Date and Agreement was very kind

3166
03:19:37,120 --> 03:19:41,640
Speaker 1: of specific that it was one a temporary solution and

3167
03:19:41,680 --> 03:19:45,440
Speaker 1: to the international community was to work on finding a

3168
03:19:45,520 --> 03:19:50,400
Speaker 1: more permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual

3169
03:19:50,520 --> 03:19:53,199
Speaker 1: sort of reconciliation and justice and all of these things.

3170
03:19:53,400 --> 03:19:55,480
Speaker 1: But they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of

3171
03:19:55,520 --> 03:19:58,560
Speaker 1: bousing it to kind of live up on its own,

3172
03:19:58,879 --> 03:20:02,600
Speaker 1: um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean,

3173
03:20:02,879 --> 03:20:06,000
Speaker 1: the EU is the U s they're doing their typical

3174
03:20:06,040 --> 03:20:11,280
Speaker 1: thing of strongly worded open letters UM and Dottic seems

3175
03:20:11,600 --> 03:20:15,400
Speaker 1: less afraid than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean,

3176
03:20:15,440 --> 03:20:18,480
Speaker 1: he is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalist,

3177
03:20:18,600 --> 03:20:21,560
Speaker 1: but right now I feel like he has so much confidence,

3178
03:20:21,600 --> 03:20:24,160
Speaker 1: and I think he also knows that like the US

3179
03:20:24,280 --> 03:20:27,520
Speaker 1: and the EU have so many bigger problems to worry

3180
03:20:27,720 --> 03:20:31,200
Speaker 1: about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out a

3181
03:20:31,200 --> 03:20:34,720
Speaker 1: priority so he can play around with it. And then

3182
03:20:34,920 --> 03:20:37,400
Speaker 1: we're also you know, seeing like the Secretary of State

3183
03:20:38,600 --> 03:20:43,039
Speaker 1: Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after this

3184
03:20:43,200 --> 03:20:46,560
Speaker 1: man openly stated on national television that he is reforming

3185
03:20:48,200 --> 03:20:51,160
Speaker 1: and they're being very cozy and very friendly and stuff

3186
03:20:51,200 --> 03:20:53,840
Speaker 1: like that. And here's the thing. I've never been really

3187
03:20:54,400 --> 03:20:58,160
Speaker 1: a big believer on the international community, because, come on,

3188
03:20:58,360 --> 03:21:02,680
Speaker 1: like I have him, experience speaks for itself. I've already

3189
03:21:02,840 --> 03:21:09,280
Speaker 1: lived lived their help, and I'm like, no, thanks, please

3190
03:21:09,320 --> 03:21:13,120
Speaker 1: stay away. But I don't live in that world. I

3191
03:21:13,200 --> 03:21:14,959
Speaker 1: live in a world where, you know, I'm from a

3192
03:21:14,959 --> 03:21:19,920
Speaker 1: small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders and

3193
03:21:20,000 --> 03:21:24,240
Speaker 1: on the international community. So while I would love to say, well,

3194
03:21:24,280 --> 03:21:27,360
Speaker 1: fuck the EU, fuck the US, we don't need them,

3195
03:21:27,600 --> 03:21:29,640
Speaker 1: the reality is that we do need them. We do

3196
03:21:29,760 --> 03:21:33,800
Speaker 1: need them to do their jobs. And because if they don't,

3197
03:21:34,000 --> 03:21:37,000
Speaker 1: I am really worried that the situation is going to

3198
03:21:37,040 --> 03:21:43,920
Speaker 1: continue to escalate further and further. And this appeasement of Dotty,

3199
03:21:44,200 --> 03:21:48,280
Speaker 1: especially in the last several years, has gone on so

3200
03:21:48,360 --> 03:21:52,000
Speaker 1: much that at this point I think you have to

3201
03:21:52,120 --> 03:21:57,119
Speaker 1: like start to wonder, like, do these does the international community,

3202
03:21:57,240 --> 03:22:00,320
Speaker 1: you know, even want peace and stability in Bosnia or

3203
03:22:00,560 --> 03:22:04,280
Speaker 1: did they benefit from our constant instability and what is

3204
03:22:04,320 --> 03:22:06,680
Speaker 1: their long term plan. But that's kind of where we're

3205
03:22:06,720 --> 03:22:09,760
Speaker 1: at right now. I think there there's you know, there's

3206
03:22:09,840 --> 03:22:14,640
Speaker 1: the people in in Bosnian politics and activist circles right

3207
03:22:14,640 --> 03:22:17,720
Speaker 1: now who are calling on US leadership or calling on

3208
03:22:17,840 --> 03:22:20,320
Speaker 1: EU leadership, and there's a lot of oh, no, the

3209
03:22:20,360 --> 03:22:22,879
Speaker 1: EU sucks, the US will help us, the U s sucks,

3210
03:22:22,920 --> 03:22:25,560
Speaker 1: the EU will help us, Turkey is gonna help us, No,

3211
03:22:25,720 --> 03:22:28,400
Speaker 1: Turkey sucks. There's a lot of like disagreement. Um. I

3212
03:22:28,440 --> 03:22:30,800
Speaker 1: think the reality is that, oh my god, does it

3213
03:22:30,879 --> 03:22:33,480
Speaker 1: suck that we aren't in this position where we have

3214
03:22:33,680 --> 03:22:38,000
Speaker 1: to rely on external sources because once again we are

3215
03:22:38,240 --> 03:22:41,480
Speaker 1: feeling alone. Once again, we're sort of being back into

3216
03:22:41,480 --> 03:22:44,800
Speaker 1: a corner and once again we're being threatened with a

3217
03:22:44,920 --> 03:22:48,000
Speaker 1: prospect of, you know, a new war. And I think

3218
03:22:48,080 --> 03:22:52,360
Speaker 1: the reality is the minute, the minute that he gives

3219
03:22:52,400 --> 03:22:55,640
Speaker 1: that green light for that the Republican scott Army to

3220
03:22:55,720 --> 03:23:01,119
Speaker 1: be formed, there will be violence. We've seen what happened before.

3221
03:23:02,360 --> 03:23:05,600
Speaker 1: We cannot afford to even have one act of violence.

3222
03:23:05,680 --> 03:23:09,800
Speaker 1: We cannot afford to have even one person injured, let

3223
03:23:09,800 --> 03:23:14,600
Speaker 1: alone die, Because these people in Bosnia, on all sides

3224
03:23:14,760 --> 03:23:19,120
Speaker 1: have suffered so unbelievably much. They are exhausted, they are

3225
03:23:19,160 --> 03:23:22,600
Speaker 1: still bearing their loved once twenty six years later, they

3226
03:23:22,640 --> 03:23:25,720
Speaker 1: still haven't you know, found that peace. They're worried and

3227
03:23:25,800 --> 03:23:29,840
Speaker 1: scared for their future, and they deserves so much more,

3228
03:23:29,879 --> 03:23:33,240
Speaker 1: they really really do. So I think, you know, I'm

3229
03:23:33,320 --> 03:23:37,720
Speaker 1: I'm hoping and praying that. Um. You know, we obviously

3230
03:23:37,760 --> 03:23:41,279
Speaker 1: continue talking about this issue, and we try to pressure

3231
03:23:41,320 --> 03:23:45,040
Speaker 1: those people in power to you know, calm the situation down,

3232
03:23:45,240 --> 03:23:49,720
Speaker 1: but the reality is that this is going to be

3233
03:23:49,760 --> 03:23:54,640
Speaker 1: our future for as long as they never exists, and

3234
03:23:54,760 --> 03:23:59,400
Speaker 1: until the Bosnian constitution is completely reformed and dating is

3235
03:23:59,440 --> 03:24:03,640
Speaker 1: completely either thrown out or reformed to actually allow for

3236
03:24:04,200 --> 03:24:09,480
Speaker 1: a you know code, actual multi ethnic United country that's

3237
03:24:09,520 --> 03:24:14,400
Speaker 1: not broken up across ethnic you know aligns, and it's

3238
03:24:14,440 --> 03:24:18,120
Speaker 1: not ethnically segregated, we're going to continue being in the situation.

3239
03:24:18,240 --> 03:24:21,400
Speaker 1: So yes, for right now, I think, let's talk about

3240
03:24:21,440 --> 03:24:23,640
Speaker 1: this and let's kind of pressure those powerful people, but

3241
03:24:23,720 --> 03:24:27,080
Speaker 1: really a long term it's time to start thinking about

3242
03:24:27,160 --> 03:24:29,199
Speaker 1: ending the date and agreement, and it's time to start

3243
03:24:29,240 --> 03:24:35,160
Speaker 1: thinking about actually building that you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural,

3244
03:24:35,320 --> 03:24:40,240
Speaker 1: multi religious country that we fought for, you know, you're

3245
03:24:40,280 --> 03:24:42,879
Speaker 1: saying like okay, like what what what is you know,

3246
03:24:43,040 --> 03:24:46,200
Speaker 1: what what is Europe actually wants out of this? And

3247
03:24:47,520 --> 03:24:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, I mean I think it's pretty clear, like okay,

3248
03:24:49,120 --> 03:24:51,800
Speaker 1: so you know it, the Day and accords are like okay,

3249
03:24:51,800 --> 03:24:55,039
Speaker 1: we're just gonna give all of the ethernnationalists like their

3250
03:24:55,040 --> 03:24:57,120
Speaker 1: own fiefdom. Right, It's like, okay, here, here's your award

3251
03:24:57,120 --> 03:25:00,400
Speaker 1: for the genocide. You get your like yeah, and I

3252
03:25:00,480 --> 03:25:02,600
Speaker 1: think you know, like that's that's that's that's that's a

3253
03:25:02,680 --> 03:25:06,160
Speaker 1: very classical you know that that that's what Europeans do. Right,

3254
03:25:06,240 --> 03:25:08,200
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, they come in the sport of the

3255
03:25:08,320 --> 03:25:12,080
Speaker 1: nationalists and it's like, you know, they they don't want this,

3256
03:25:12,320 --> 03:25:18,720
Speaker 1: like they don't actually want like if a functioning, multi ethnic,

3257
03:25:18,800 --> 03:25:22,440
Speaker 1: multiracial society because you know, oh oh the horror weight

3258
03:25:22,520 --> 03:25:25,560
Speaker 1: hold on what if other people look at that and go, wait,

3259
03:25:25,600 --> 03:25:27,920
Speaker 1: why why do we have Like yeah, I think that

3260
03:25:29,320 --> 03:25:32,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think you see this both you know,

3261
03:25:32,080 --> 03:25:34,520
Speaker 1: back back and what they were originally doing in the nineties,

3262
03:25:34,560 --> 03:25:36,960
Speaker 1: and you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey,

3263
03:25:37,000 --> 03:25:41,960
Speaker 1: look we're heroes. We uh helped them do the genocide,

3264
03:25:42,000 --> 03:25:45,080
Speaker 1: and then kind of sort of did something maybe later

3265
03:25:46,360 --> 03:25:48,920
Speaker 1: and I think, like, yeah, I don't know, just the

3266
03:25:48,959 --> 03:25:51,960
Speaker 1: possibility of that happening again, the possibility of its just

3267
03:25:52,040 --> 03:25:54,840
Speaker 1: being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bosty,

3268
03:25:54,959 --> 03:25:56,760
Speaker 1: this this is where we do press tours for like

3269
03:25:56,760 --> 03:25:59,600
Speaker 1: why the American Army is good and like fun anyone

3270
03:25:59,640 --> 03:26:04,120
Speaker 1: else who actually lives there. Yeah, I mean, like, come on,

3271
03:26:04,360 --> 03:26:07,520
Speaker 1: they're America. Like, let's be honest here, Like I'm not

3272
03:26:07,560 --> 03:26:10,560
Speaker 1: saying they're all powerful entity, but what I am saying

3273
03:26:10,680 --> 03:26:15,440
Speaker 1: is that if they really wanted to, the people who

3274
03:26:15,440 --> 03:26:18,560
Speaker 1: are in power would not be in power, right Like,

3275
03:26:19,920 --> 03:26:23,600
Speaker 1: but these people, people like Dotty, people like Dragon Schovich,

3276
03:26:23,640 --> 03:26:27,040
Speaker 1: who is the Croatian at No nationalist leader who is also,

3277
03:26:27,080 --> 03:26:30,000
Speaker 1: by the way, directly involved in this mess. And and

3278
03:26:30,040 --> 03:26:32,400
Speaker 1: once again we're seeing that thing of the nineties of

3279
03:26:32,600 --> 03:26:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split Bosnia up

3280
03:26:35,560 --> 03:26:39,360
Speaker 1: and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um, that's

3281
03:26:39,440 --> 03:26:43,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryman and Looshevitch,

3282
03:26:43,440 --> 03:26:47,600
Speaker 1: it's now Chovich and uh, you know Dotty. I talk

3283
03:26:47,640 --> 03:26:49,440
Speaker 1: about Dotic a lot more because I think he's a

3284
03:26:49,440 --> 03:26:52,760
Speaker 1: more immediate threat, but it's important that we don't forget

3285
03:26:52,840 --> 03:26:56,560
Speaker 1: that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat as well. Um.

3286
03:26:56,800 --> 03:26:59,760
Speaker 1: And you know, but but I think about it this way,

3287
03:26:59,840 --> 03:27:02,720
Speaker 1: like I know for a fact that if these people

3288
03:27:02,879 --> 03:27:07,039
Speaker 1: did not benefit the system somehow, they would not actually

3289
03:27:07,040 --> 03:27:09,840
Speaker 1: be in power. But they do. They do benefit them

3290
03:27:09,840 --> 03:27:13,720
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, in a modain Albright called

3291
03:27:14,520 --> 03:27:19,000
Speaker 1: Dot like a breath of fresh air um in you know,

3292
03:27:19,040 --> 03:27:22,720
Speaker 1: the nineties when he came to power and then and

3293
03:27:22,760 --> 03:27:26,320
Speaker 1: now here we are you know, um got its threatening

3294
03:27:26,360 --> 03:27:30,520
Speaker 1: more and threatening succession and talking about serve only you know,

3295
03:27:31,160 --> 03:27:36,440
Speaker 1: spaces and serve only armies and it's just it's exhaust thing.

3296
03:27:36,640 --> 03:27:40,199
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's it's also funny. It is funny

3297
03:27:40,200 --> 03:27:42,960
Speaker 1: when you think about it, because the reality is that

3298
03:27:45,200 --> 03:27:47,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't it never had to be like this, and

3299
03:27:47,920 --> 03:27:50,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to feel like this in the future either.

3300
03:27:51,760 --> 03:27:55,000
Speaker 1: But unfortunately it will continue to be like this because

3301
03:27:55,040 --> 03:27:59,000
Speaker 1: that's just you know, what the powerful want, like what

3302
03:27:59,120 --> 03:28:01,760
Speaker 1: those actually will have some power one And that's the

3303
03:28:01,760 --> 03:28:03,600
Speaker 1: thing that sucks because when you you know, I feel

3304
03:28:03,600 --> 03:28:07,199
Speaker 1: like I'm starting to sound conspirator, but I'm not. Um.

3305
03:28:07,240 --> 03:28:09,360
Speaker 1: You know, when you when you think about like Europe

3306
03:28:09,400 --> 03:28:14,640
Speaker 1: overall and how they looked at Bosnia. I think for

3307
03:28:14,760 --> 03:28:19,680
Speaker 1: the last you know, hundred years um and their policy

3308
03:28:19,720 --> 03:28:23,039
Speaker 1: towards Bosnia. It's really difficult for me to kind of

3309
03:28:23,200 --> 03:28:27,320
Speaker 1: be filled with any sort of confidence about what their

3310
03:28:27,360 --> 03:28:30,959
Speaker 1: plans are. You know. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's

3311
03:28:31,000 --> 03:28:34,520
Speaker 1: Europe in the United States, two countries that historically have

3312
03:28:34,600 --> 03:28:37,440
Speaker 1: never done anything bad, have never done any genocides, and

3313
03:28:37,440 --> 03:28:44,440
Speaker 1: have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

3314
03:28:44,520 --> 03:28:46,320
Speaker 1: it's just, you know, they're the good guys. So like

3315
03:28:46,400 --> 03:28:48,800
Speaker 1: you said, you know, Bosnia's there are so much is

3316
03:28:48,879 --> 03:28:52,400
Speaker 1: like this press store for you know, these politicians to

3317
03:28:52,480 --> 03:28:55,120
Speaker 1: come and to talk about why we're such a great

3318
03:28:55,160 --> 03:28:58,120
Speaker 1: example of the peace process when we're really we're not,

3319
03:28:58,360 --> 03:29:00,879
Speaker 1: you know, And the thing is, don't you know they'll

3320
03:29:00,879 --> 03:29:03,359
Speaker 1: come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect,

3321
03:29:03,760 --> 03:29:05,720
Speaker 1: it was the best solution at the time, and it's

3322
03:29:05,760 --> 03:29:10,959
Speaker 1: like it was not, you know, but but they have

3323
03:29:11,160 --> 03:29:13,880
Speaker 1: convinced that themselves that this was like a win for

3324
03:29:14,879 --> 03:29:18,959
Speaker 1: intervention and win for the international community. Now, don't get

3325
03:29:19,000 --> 03:29:24,840
Speaker 1: me wrong, I alongside everyone I know, is extremely happy

3326
03:29:24,879 --> 03:29:28,520
Speaker 1: that the war ended and that the genocide ended, um.

3327
03:29:28,560 --> 03:29:32,119
Speaker 1: And I think until you're in that position of growing

3328
03:29:32,200 --> 03:29:35,320
Speaker 1: up in the midst of you know, all these bombs

3329
03:29:35,320 --> 03:29:38,920
Speaker 1: and murders and tortures all around you, and you know,

3330
03:29:39,000 --> 03:29:41,039
Speaker 1: the only style do you ever hear are the sounds

3331
03:29:41,040 --> 03:29:44,520
Speaker 1: of bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you,

3332
03:29:44,520 --> 03:29:47,800
Speaker 1: you won't really know how it feels when that finally

3333
03:29:47,920 --> 03:29:51,760
Speaker 1: stops and when you have some peace, and how difficult

3334
03:29:52,959 --> 03:29:56,440
Speaker 1: um it can be to think about obviously any future

3335
03:29:56,480 --> 03:29:59,640
Speaker 1: sort of prospects of war um. And I think that's

3336
03:29:59,680 --> 03:30:02,560
Speaker 1: that all so is a is a contributing factor to

3337
03:30:02,840 --> 03:30:08,040
Speaker 1: the overall instability of Bosingia because for twenty six years now,

3338
03:30:08,400 --> 03:30:12,560
Speaker 1: our policy as a people, but as a country as well,

3339
03:30:12,680 --> 03:30:17,080
Speaker 1: has been as long as there's no shooting, which is

3340
03:30:17,080 --> 03:30:20,920
Speaker 1: not a sound policy because you know, settling for the

3341
03:30:20,920 --> 03:30:23,760
Speaker 1: bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths

3342
03:30:23,800 --> 03:30:29,520
Speaker 1: are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria,

3343
03:30:29,600 --> 03:30:33,600
Speaker 1: to the United States. People are struggling for for jobs,

3344
03:30:33,640 --> 03:30:36,520
Speaker 1: people are struggling to find food. You know, all of

3345
03:30:36,520 --> 03:30:40,800
Speaker 1: these things, um, on top of the threat of war

3346
03:30:40,920 --> 03:30:44,120
Speaker 1: and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a

3347
03:30:44,160 --> 03:30:48,600
Speaker 1: sound policy, and I'm just hoping, um, it will change

3348
03:30:48,720 --> 03:30:51,560
Speaker 1: eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part,

3349
03:30:51,600 --> 03:30:55,480
Speaker 1: which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in

3350
03:30:55,480 --> 03:30:59,119
Speaker 1: in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them

3351
03:30:59,160 --> 03:31:01,560
Speaker 1: to do the right thing to obviously talk about this.

3352
03:31:01,640 --> 03:31:04,840
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such

3353
03:31:04,840 --> 03:31:10,160
Speaker 1: a long, long, long, long road ahead of us. And um,

3354
03:31:10,200 --> 03:31:14,400
Speaker 1: you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So

3355
03:31:14,560 --> 03:31:19,320
Speaker 1: I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah,

3356
03:31:19,800 --> 03:31:22,959
Speaker 1: so much more to do, I think. I think that's

3357
03:31:22,959 --> 03:31:30,400
Speaker 1: a good place to end on with just the realization that, Yeah,

3358
03:31:30,440 --> 03:31:33,560
Speaker 1: I mean, if if, if there's no fundamental change in

3359
03:31:33,640 --> 03:31:36,920
Speaker 1: the structures and the forces and in the politics that

3360
03:31:37,360 --> 03:31:41,160
Speaker 1: created a warth created genocide, like it's going to happen again. Yeah,

3361
03:31:41,520 --> 03:31:44,160
Speaker 1: and so you you you have to actually change it.

3362
03:31:44,240 --> 03:31:46,120
Speaker 1: You can't just sort of put this band aid on

3363
03:31:46,160 --> 03:31:47,920
Speaker 1: it and put it in stasis and just leave all

3364
03:31:47,920 --> 03:31:50,720
Speaker 1: the structures intact. You have to now you have to

3365
03:31:50,800 --> 03:31:55,600
Speaker 1: knock them over before you can build something else. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

3366
03:31:56,040 --> 03:31:59,160
Speaker 1: unnessa think thank you so much for talking with me. Um,

3367
03:31:59,200 --> 03:32:02,320
Speaker 1: where can people find you? And what books do you

3368
03:32:02,320 --> 03:32:04,760
Speaker 1: want to read because as as as we've said over

3369
03:32:04,760 --> 03:32:07,000
Speaker 1: and over again on this podcast, do not get your

3370
03:32:07,040 --> 03:32:11,039
Speaker 1: information from podcast. Actually, read books is the thing you need,

3371
03:32:11,080 --> 03:32:14,640
Speaker 1: what you need to do. UM. Yeah, well if you Obviously,

3372
03:32:14,680 --> 03:32:16,600
Speaker 1: I know our audience can't see yet, but here's my

3373
03:32:16,680 --> 03:32:22,920
Speaker 1: little one of my little selections of books on Bosnia. UM. Obviously,

3374
03:32:22,959 --> 03:32:26,000
Speaker 1: people can find me on Twitter. Um, you know, type

3375
03:32:26,080 --> 03:32:28,640
Speaker 1: in my name A R N E s A. But

3376
03:32:28,840 --> 03:32:33,440
Speaker 1: my at is at ore are are r A F

3377
03:32:33,720 --> 03:32:36,760
Speaker 1: s A. Yeah. Twitter is probably the best place. But

3378
03:32:37,600 --> 03:32:39,440
Speaker 1: also I have a book out so if people want

3379
03:32:39,440 --> 03:32:42,440
Speaker 1: to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM.

3380
03:32:42,520 --> 03:32:45,480
Speaker 1: And it is based on real life experiences of my

3381
03:32:45,640 --> 03:32:49,680
Speaker 1: family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more

3382
03:32:49,760 --> 03:32:55,200
Speaker 1: so on the emotional UM side of things. But if

3383
03:32:55,240 --> 03:32:59,800
Speaker 1: you want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective,

3384
03:33:00,080 --> 03:33:04,000
Speaker 1: I always recommend UM. And I don't know where it's

3385
03:33:04,000 --> 03:33:09,160
Speaker 1: going out, but I always recommend UM Bosnia, Kosova and

3386
03:33:09,720 --> 03:33:17,640
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia by Mike Kardadigis UM. It's the Marxist perspective on

3387
03:33:18,080 --> 03:33:24,280
Speaker 1: the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf

3388
03:33:25,080 --> 03:33:29,080
Speaker 1: on my Twitter of tons of books So if you

3389
03:33:29,120 --> 03:33:32,680
Speaker 1: want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans,

3390
03:33:32,840 --> 03:33:36,240
Speaker 1: about the history of Bosnia, about the war Jetta side,

3391
03:33:36,280 --> 03:33:38,560
Speaker 1: feel free to shoot me a d M. I have

3392
03:33:38,720 --> 03:33:43,160
Speaker 1: a handy little guy that I hand out constantly. Two people. Um,

3393
03:33:43,200 --> 03:33:45,120
Speaker 1: And there's also a list of books on like my

3394
03:33:45,160 --> 03:33:47,360
Speaker 1: website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can

3395
03:33:47,400 --> 03:33:48,760
Speaker 1: post it. We can put a link to it in

3396
03:33:48,760 --> 03:33:50,680
Speaker 1: the description. I've I've read some stuff on there. It's

3397
03:33:50,760 --> 03:33:55,000
Speaker 1: very good. You should read it. Thanks. I pry myself

3398
03:33:55,120 --> 03:34:02,280
Speaker 1: on really good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah,

3399
03:34:02,320 --> 03:34:06,840
Speaker 1: well Vanessa, thank you again. And yeah, this this has

3400
03:34:06,840 --> 03:34:09,520
Speaker 1: when it could happen here? Find us that it could

3401
03:34:09,520 --> 03:34:12,520
Speaker 1: happen here pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the

3402
03:34:12,520 --> 03:34:14,800
Speaker 1: show is that we do are You can find it

3403
03:34:14,840 --> 03:34:18,680
Speaker 1: at the cool Zone on the same places and yeah,

3404
03:34:18,720 --> 03:34:22,680
Speaker 1: oh boy, genocide bad hope there's no more work to

3405
03:34:22,760 --> 03:34:38,760
Speaker 1: stop them. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes

3406
03:34:38,879 --> 03:34:41,400
Speaker 1: every week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3407
03:34:42,120 --> 03:34:44,520
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3408
03:34:44,760 --> 03:34:47,400
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3409
03:34:47,440 --> 03:34:49,560
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com or check us out on

3410
03:34:49,600 --> 03:34:52,120
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

3411
03:34:52,200 --> 03:34:54,960
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for it could

3412
03:34:54,959 --> 03:34:57,960
Speaker 1: happen here. Updated monthly at cool zone media dot com

3413
03:34:58,040 --> 03:35:02,119
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening. Raffie is the voice of

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Speaker 1: greed and forgery in the art world. I just walked

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