WEBVTT - Dawn Bridges 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:11.080 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Left That's a podcast. 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.320 My guest today is Dawn Bridges, who's had a whole 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:21.599 career in publicity, mostly corporate publicity. Dawn, I've had a 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.800 wonderful time in the traditional music industry and the new 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:30.600 music industry, UM tech companies, Time Inc. Um, he's a 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.440 Time Warner. Okay, you covered a lot of ground white publicity. 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:37.640 I didn't know what else I wanted to do, and 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:39.920 I thought about going to law school like everyone else 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.720 who graduated with a liberal What did you would you 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:49.159 what was your degree of communications l A right? Okay, 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:54.640 so you you graduated from college and this was like 0:00:55.040 --> 0:01:00.120 late seventies, early eighties, eighty three, and you had no 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:01.840 idea what you wanted to do. Well, I knew I 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.679 always liked music. I actually had an internship at A 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.400 and M Records and a little bit slower, why did 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.320 you get an internship at A and M Records? Well, 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:12.959 one of the great things about going to school at 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.480 u CE, oh hey, is there are internships and almost 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.240 any entertainment company. I mean, just pick it. You want 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.480 to be in TV, you want to be really yeah, 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:22.800 I mean because I grew up in the era. I'm 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.360 a little bit older than you, like ten years older 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.640 or close to it, and you couldn't even get a 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.160 job at a record store like Tower Records. It was 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:31.600 so hard. So you're going to U c l A. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.840 If you say, I want an internship at a record label, 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.440 is just that easy? Even better, you've got credit for it. Okay, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:43.280 so you're working there? Uh Gil, is there Gil Freasons 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.920 running it? Yeah? Gil would have been there. Mike Gormley 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.600 head Mike Gormley, was it prob? I didn't know that. 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.720 And I remember the Police album, I mean not the 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.200 remember the show at the Whiskey where everyone kind of 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.080 had the bright blonde hair. Go back and google it 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.360 that the very very first piece was that on that album? 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:09.240 Certainly Roxanne. So what did you do with um? Well, 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.840 those were the days where you actually mailed out um 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.480 records to journalists. So I stuffed a lot of envelopes. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.240 Um you know, I checked people in at shows. I 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:24.040 did all the things that aspiring people do. Okay, and 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.400 that was how long a tenure, I guess about six months? Okay. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.120 Good good experience, bad experience. Interesting. I mean it felt 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.280 very glamorous at the time. You know here you are 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.680 in the old Charlie chaplain lot um. Yeah, it was 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.040 great okay? And after did they give you the time 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.079 of day? Yeah? No. I thought people were very nice 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.160 and polite when they had extra tickets to things that 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.520 would invite me to shows. So and it actually served 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.079 me well later on when I had interns and departments 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:56.200 that that I managed. You know, be nice to your interns, okay, 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:58.840 or now the interns have to get paid otherwise, yes 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.120 they do. Okay, you're at U C l A. How 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:06.360 do you get to A and m um, well, I 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.520 don't know as you have a car. I didn't have 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.400 a car my first couple of years, so I literally 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.080 I was a tour gut at the l A Times 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.520 my sophomore year. So I literally got on the Wilshire 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.880 bus and went from Westwood downtown to the l A Times. 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.720 You were a tour guard? Yeah, they used to give 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.160 tours at the l A Times. What would you see, um? Well, 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.600 to show you when it was the big finale was 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.040 ending in the printing presses. It's funny. When I was 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:34.639 in grade school, we went once to the brief for 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:36.800 post in Connecticut. I remember that was the error of 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.520 what they said, you know, was it hot? Type letter 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.400 came down? Yeah, no, that you did all that. And 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.440 of course the l A Times had so much history 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.120 you know that I wasn't aware of before I was 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.040 down there. And I can't remember a whole lot except 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.560 the chandlers were a big deal and water and um, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.400 and it paid extremely I don't remember exactly what I 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.640 got paid, but it paid two or three times what 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.240 minimum wage was, so there was a lot of money. 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:00.720 It was a lot of more. How did you get 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.800 that gig? You know? I wish I had a better 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.800 memory for it. Um, I'm not sure I do. Okay, 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.560 are you? I mean? But now we hear about the internship. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.040 We hear about the job the only times. So you 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:18.880 sound somewhat entrepreneurial. Would that be accurate? I guess I 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.320 would say I was always a self starter and and 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.440 I had a good sense of perseverance. Um. And I 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.520 got a much thicker skin as I got older. You know, 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:32.919 you have to be comfortable being rejected or having people 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.240 say no and get back up again. Okay, so you 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.880 you have that experience, you graduate from U C. L A. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.599 And uh, well, in the summer I grew up in 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:44.400 Chicago in the summer, I would go back and there 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.160 was a big music festival called Chicago Fest, and I worked, 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.800 you know, first as a receptionist. Then they told me, 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:52.760 if you learn how to type, you can come back 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.000 and be the entertainment director's kind of assistant to deal 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.200 with all the contracts. And that was super glamorous. I 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.920 mean I remember a hundred thousand people showing up for Journey. 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.480 I remember the Blues Brothers playing, you know, right on 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.479 Navy Pier on the water. And through there I met 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.000 a lot of agents or agents assistants, and through one 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.120 of them, I was introduced to someone at um Salters 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.320 Roskin Friedman, which is a big PR agency. At this point, 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.440 Larry Salter's son is still a PR person Um Lease 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:24.920 Alter's son, Larry Salters. That's what I meant to say, 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.680 Larry is gonna be angry with me. Uh yeah. But 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:30.560 that was one of the along with Rogers and Cowan, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.520 that was probably the biggest entertainment PR firm. And again 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.960 I was hired as a secretary of a little bit slower. 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.960 So you learned them as you found out about them 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.200 as a result of Chicago Fest. Yes, how did you 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:48.160 literally get a job there. Well again, um, PR firms 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.360 are very low margin and they don't pay very much 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.480 particular just for my way, it's may not be as 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:59.640 sophisticated as you are. Low margin in what way? Um, Well, 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.000 there's a way to do scale. It's a one on one. 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:05.400 So it's not like you, as an account executive can 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.880 have a hundred clients, because you could not service a 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.840 hundred clients. Um. And and they were always looking for 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.279 people to do more work. They were looking for more 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.880 bodies to raise the gross. Yes, and um I was 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:24.200 hired as an assistant. You were doing you were in 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:30.200 Chicago in the summers. Okay, so this was a gig 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:35.680 with solters at all after you graduated? Yes, okay. Had 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.440 you in the back of your mind when you were 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.280 meeting these people at Chicago FESTI say, oh, I'm going 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.680 to use this to get a job. Uh. Well, I 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:44.640 knew I wanted to stay in l A at that point. 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.440 Um So to the degree that any of the relationships 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.640 I built there were helpful, um, which they turned out 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.479 to be. I mean I knew Bobby I met Bobby 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.839 Brooks then at I c m. Um, I forget who 0:06:57.839 --> 0:06:59.720 the William Moore's agent was. I mean, those are I 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:01.720 guess two big ones that had at least well, I 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.400 guess I'm trying to get into your personality. Were used 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.400 basically saying, Okay, I know this person, let me ring them, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:08.800 let me work it, let me see what I can 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.040 make of myself. Or we just sitting there and all 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:12.440 of a sudden you got a phone call. Hey, you 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:14.760 know we met you and this you'd be good at 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.400 our office. Certainly not the latter. I'm not sure. I 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.040 was just organized for the former, but I was pretty 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:25.480 good at figuring out at least target companies, and and 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.360 again I figured out pretty early that a lot of them, 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.840 UM needed young people who were basically willing to do 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.920 anything at anyhing. Okay, so you basically called up the 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.280 Solters operations that I want to work. I was introduced 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.000 I think by a junior William Morris agent too, not 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.680 to lead to someone else. Okay, So you did not 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:51.000 know Solters at all from Chicago fest not at all. Okay, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.240 so you're introduced, you go for meeting. What happens, um, Well, 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.840 Lee had an office that I'm not sure he ever 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.760 had filing cabinets. You know, there was the Barber Pile, 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:05.400 the Frank Pile, who was a great character. UM. And 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.000 it was basically, can you write? Do you understand what 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.120 a column item is? Um? You start next Monday? And 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.840 again I was hired as an assistant and about three 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.360 account executives quit in the first month. And it was like, 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.080 can you be polite? Can you write? Can you figure 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.960 out what makes a good story? And when you do events? 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.560 Can you get people to pose for photos? And it 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.200 was learned by doing. I mean there's no school. How 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.800 much were you getting paid? I don't remember. Not very 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.600 much enough to pay your rent and live a life well, 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.120 or your parents had to help you out. No, my parents, 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:42.080 I mean my parents paid tuition UM tuition at U 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:43.720 c l A. At that point was not a whole 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.360 lot of money. I always was responsible, No, I was 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.760 self sufficient. I did live in Santa Monica in a 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.880 rent control apartment, so I had very little, you know, 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.600 housing costs at that point. So what were some of 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:01.240 the first things you did? Uh? Well, I remember following 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:05.280 Lee around, UM too, Barbara streising events. I think that 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.760 was maybe the Broadway album. I mean I didn't deal 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.720 with her directly, but someone always needed helpers you know, 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.680 carrying the coat or you know, holding the photographers here. 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.760 And that was also when she did her performance when 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:21.800 she hadn't performed for a long time in her house 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:26.000 in Malibu for um, the Democratic Party or something, I 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:29.040 don't remember specifically what the cause was. And that, of 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.400 course was so fascinating just to see this sort of 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.720 legendary person and how an event like that came together. 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.280 There were a lot of Um, there were a lot 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.880 of movie premiers, which need a lot of bodies. People 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.200 have worked the red carpet people you know, to ask 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.680 stars if they would come talk to entertainment tonight, people 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:52.559 to pose photos. Um. They had a big theater practice 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.559 which I knew nothing about theater, and most of it 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.800 was centered in New York. Um. But I was given 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.920 the Carol Channing account, um, which was just a hoop. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:06.880 She was you know, she was lovely. Um. I worked 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:11.200 with Morris Day. Um. It was a very David Copperfield, 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.640 a bunch of Las Vegas acts. Okay, So would you 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:20.880 basically assigned and you had to plug wires into holes 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.000 or did you have to create the opportunities the latter? 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.839 How did you just how to do that? Well? I've 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:31.319 always been a voracious consumer of media. Um. I mean 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.280 I always read newspapers and a bunch of magazines, So 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.480 I guess I understood what kind of thing they would 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:43.520 cover by just you know, years of reading it, um 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.120 and again some of it. You know, you can pitch 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.280 ten things, you know, get nine knowes. You got to 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:52.280 just get back up and do. But you would literally say, Okay, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.319 I want to be in the l A Times. Let 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:58.280 me look who the names are, let me ring them, um, 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.480 Or let's figure out are we best off in the 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.800 calendar section? Are we best off in you know, the 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:09.240 Sunday magazine. You also need to not just we have 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.000 a better plan. You would literally call out of the 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:18.120 blue and what would you say, Um, we have to 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.959 figure out what the pitch is, right, What what differentiates 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.640 your artists from anyone else in that category that makes 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.600 it interesting enough for the journalists to want to cover it. 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.280 And that's kind of your job to sort of sort 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.520 through that. I mean, there's a lot of singers, you know, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.360 there's a lot of actors, and why should someone care 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.400 about the one that you're representing? So how do you 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.640 do it? Give me an example, Oh, you talked to 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.800 the Um, you talked to the artist a lot, and 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:48.440 you try to figure out, again, what's different from this. 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.040 I don't know country artists and any other country artists. 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.560 Was it where they grew up? What songs they write? Um? Uh? 0:11:55.600 --> 0:12:01.280 Their background? Um? And okay, so now you know what 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.360 you're pitching. You know the artists very well. You're a newbie. 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.640 No one knows who you are, so you connect in 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.680 that time it was by phone. You connect with someone 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.240 who controls as a writer, the media outlet. Did they 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.880 give you the time of day? Some did? Some? I 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.040 mean some of the bigger ones were the nicest ones. 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:21.760 I mean I didn't deal with Bob Hilburn a lot, 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:26.679 but I remember he was completely charming and lovely. Um, 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.960 and other ones didn't. Again, I guess I had a 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.520 pretty thick skin because it didn't stick with me. If 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.400 people just hunt up or not interested or whatever, Okay, 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:37.920 onto the next one. So you could literally say I'm 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.800 gonna call twenty people and if one says yes, doesn't bother? 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:47.160 Is that your personality at large? You rejection rolls off you. 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.800 Oh I never really thought about it that way. I 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:57.160 I guess I'm a realist, and I realized that. Um, 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.679 you know, no one bats a dent um in this 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.160 kind of role. So if I'm going to do this 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.880 or for as long as I'm doing it, I'd better 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.160 be comfortable with what the rules of the road are. 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.079 So how long do you work with Falters? Four or 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.480 five years? Okay, at the end of the tenure, what 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.679 does your job look like. I was a senior account 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.319 executive and what does that mean as opposed to when 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.320 you started out? Um, I probably had better accounts. I 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.120 had junior people, even if they didn't. I mean, there 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.240 was not a formal organ chart, you know, so it's 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.400 not like I could say these three people reported to me, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.480 but I had, you know, people that were junior that 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:44.360 I could have help on accounts. Um. Having afterwards worked 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.480 in corporate life, it was a pretty loose organization, kind 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.560 of all out of Lee's head and and feeling. But 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:54.640 I didn't know any different then. I mean that was 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.280 just how much pressure was there. I think that there 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.959 was a fair amount of pressure at least I felt 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:08.960 on myself. Um uh, but I've felt pressure at different 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.160 just asking because for me, not the top of job. 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.240 For me, I can't handle that much rejection. And let's 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.240 use the example of a record promo person. You know 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.320 they're gonna get the ads and they feel a lot 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.120 of pressure if they don't get them, however, well hard 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.120 they're working, their bloss is gonna beat them up. So 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:28.400 it was the type of thing we say, well, you 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:30.000 know we're working this thing. You've got to get a 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.760 couple of newspapers, you gotta get the person on TV. 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.080 And did you feel pressure? Well, I really have to 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.280 make this happen. Lee was a big believer in column items, 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:40.800 and with that Carol Channing pile, he would pull out 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.680 an old column item and say, just freshen this up, 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.560 Dawn and see if Liz Smith will use it. So 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.720 he actually gave you a certain amount of instruction. Oh yeah, 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.320 and he gave a great guidance pr people should never 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.360 be in the photo. Uh, you want your client posts 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.440 on the left side. Why is that because when you 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.320 read the thing, you know you're that the first name. Yes, 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.000 they're the first name that people read, and not everyone 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.480 reads all the names. Um no, it was okay, So 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.400 four or five years go by. How does it end 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.880 with Lee? Well, I had a few music accounts and 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.560 PolyGram was looking for someone to head their artist publicity 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.440 department in New York. My father lived in New York 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.640 and had since I was a teenager, and I always 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.640 knew I wanted to be in New York. At some point, 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:32.560 you said, your father, both parents, my father, um and uh, 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.880 and they offered to bring me to New York. Um. 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.240 And again I knew about music. I didn't know sort 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.480 of about label life and and um and I had 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.840 never managed a department, even though there was so much 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.760 money coming in at that point that, you know, making 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:51.480 budgets um uh was not what it ended up being. 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:58.600 Um later and I, UM, yeah, I mean PolyGram As 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:00.840 you remember, there were six major is at that point, 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:05.520 where ninety now. Um. So this is just after what 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.200 Polygrams on an acquisitions were. They bought A and M, 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.720 they bought Island. They were owned by Phillips, the Dutch 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:16.720 electronics company, and to fund those acquisitions they floated the 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.280 company and the New York Stock Exchange. So they were 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.880 the first pure play music group. Nothing about I P. O. 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.560 S or anything like that at that point. That got them, 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:27.960 you know, the billion dollars that paid for A and 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.800 M and Island they acquired right before I came in Subsequently, 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.480 they acquired Motown a year or so later, and then 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.840 another year later half of deaf Jam UM. And it 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:43.440 was a lot of sort of integration. And UM PolyGram 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.080 was traditionally on a global level, the biggest of the 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:53.240 six companies right there overseas, but the smallest in the US. UM. 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.080 But they had, you know, a handful of big stars. UM. 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:04.280 And yeah, okay, so you're brought in as the department head. Yes, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.159 are some of the people working there feel that they 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.080 should have had your job because they've been working there 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.560 for a while. Yeah, at least one did. Yeah, what 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:17.479 happened there? Um? She stayed for a year or so. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.760 I mean, I think I didn't have the incentive to 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.399 get rid of her. I felt like usually that person quits. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.840 But in any event, UM, did you feel I mean, 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.160 you've been working in the trenches for four or five years, 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.560 but you hadn't worked at a label. Did you feel 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.640 a little intimidated that you were going to be managing 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.440 the department? Um? I think less about managing the department 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.040 more than trying to figure out just the mechanics of 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:45.159 how a label worked the various departments. UM, How something 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.800 comes through the system from recording the record to how 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.240 much time you need for the setup, to the other departments, 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.840 the marketing, promotion, sales department. Okay, so PolyGram was an 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.119 overall umbrella and they had a lot of labels. You 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.840 were working in New York. What was your responsibility in 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.040 the beginning when I was hired, A and M and 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.159 Island weren't integrated yet, so they were still run stand alone. 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:10.520 Um I was the old PolyGram So Bungo, VI, Deaf Leopard, 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.640 Tears Tears, Mercury. Yeah, well then they split it up 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.960 after I got they split it up between Mercury and 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.639 they created something called the PolyGram Label Group, which had 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.080 London and I think some of the Island repertoire um 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.920 going through. And then yes, I had the Mercury artists 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.560 and I think so you were literally the record company 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.240 publicity I was. And then so how much did you 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:35.760 still have to do the work that you did at 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:40.560 least alters as opposed to farming it out to your people. Well, 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.880 I remember um my boss saying you've got to deal 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.240 with Bungo because he's the biggest artist on the label 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:52.639 and you're running the department. Um Mellencamp had outside press, 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.800 but I ended up having a reasonable relationship with him. 0:18:55.920 --> 0:19:05.760 He's notoriously difficult, even myself. But at that point UM, 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:07.920 because you know, all the corporate PR was done out 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.080 of London, UM, but we were being traded in New 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.120 York and Alan Levy, who came over from from Europe 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.520 and was then chairman UM, said get me PR because 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:20.520 he needed someone in New York that could deal with 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:22.959 some of the corporate stuff. And I tried it upstairs, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.399 and I think he made one of those decisions that 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.600 I would rather have someone that knew the artists and 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.760 sort of knew the mechanics of the business UM and 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.480 had trade relationships, and I'll teach them, you know, the 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.960 business stuff. And I mean I took accounting in college, 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.120 but I know nothing about sort of finances. I p 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.160 o s. But at the time, Columbia had a month 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:48.119 long live in Finance for Non Financial Executives course and 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.760 he sent me to that, and it was famous for 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.359 sending people to courses. But it was such a great 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.080 gift for me because that's where I wasn'tmidated in the beginning, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.159 and all that business stuff. I didn't know the difference, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.399 you know, I knew the difference between balanced sheeting, the 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.440 P and L. But you know how deals were mean 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.520 any of that stuff. And obviously a month is not 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.679 like having an NBA or a finance degree, but you 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.600 know what, it's enough where you can talk to the 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.040 Wall Street Journal and not feel like an idiot. Okay, 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.240 when was there an interim period when you were doing 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.040 both or all the way to the end, All the 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.680 way to the end. I literally had two titles, two 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:28.879 sets of business cards, PolyGram Corps, com Mercury, you know, 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.320 artist publicity. I had two wardrobes because if I was 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.360 in a corporate day and then I had a concert 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.600 at night, you know, I wasn't gonna wear you know, 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:40.960 you need to change into my jeans. So what was 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:47.520 your mission a corporate level? On a corporate level, explain 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:53.080 why people should buy PolyGram stock, Explain how um the 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.320 labels are being integrated. And PolyGram did two other things 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.000 that are kind of interesting that seemed obvious now. They 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.000 started a film come they you know of the company, 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.719 I think what was film revenues. They bought working title films, 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.840 which is still around, you know, love actually four weddings 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:13.440 in the funeral um. They bought propaganda which mostly did 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.720 music videos but also had films UM California. I don't 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:21.760 remember all of them. Uh, and they bought Interscope Films UM. 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.480 So you had this, you know, truly multi media entertainment 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.359 company UM. And then they also and now this is 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.200 very obvious and commonplace, but because of PolyGram strength overseas, 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.480 you know, yes, they were always trying to sell you know, 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.520 Shania Twain or Brian Adams or Bunjovie records around the world. 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.240 But they also put a huge emphasis on local repertoire UM. 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.840 You know, the Italian artists, it's never going to travel 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.639 outside of Italy. They will sell a boatload of of 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.399 records or CDs in Italy. UM. And that was I 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:57.000 mean not just from a business standpoint, but explaining to 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.480 investors that that was an important little bit slower. So 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.320 you take the Columbia course. You're sophisticated enough to talk 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:13.640 to UM financial press, do you who do you start calling? Well, 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:15.760 there's not that many ones that you have. You know, 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:17.920 you have to build a relationship with the New York 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.720 Times and with the Wall Street Journal and the Financial 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:24.840 Times and UM. You know, I mean there were random 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:27.040 things like the economists, but it's not like the economists 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.120 head to beat The l A Times obviously was huge. 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.560 At that point, Chuck Phillips was probably the most important 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:36.840 music business um person. Um. You know the trades. Um. 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:41.439 It wasn't always necessarily pitching things. It was more preparation 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:45.640 of messaging and materials and earnings and reports in English? 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.480 What is that? Well, Um, by pitching, I mean pro acts. No, no, 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.639 the other end the point with preparation. Oh well, okay, 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:57.080 you're a public company. So every quarter you have to 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:00.960 issue um of release about how your results were, and 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:05.240 then you have to explain why revenues went down and 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:10.800 what you're projecting for the next quarter. Um, and you 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:13.720 know how the company is pitting together, what your competitive 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:19.680 advantages are. Okay, So there would be a meeting are 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:21.600 there the release and they would have a meeting with 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:25.439 the analysts would call in, Yeah, you have a quarterly okay, 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.760 analysts call And then when that ended in the afternoon, 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:31.359 you'd put out some kind of press release now product 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.359 the release before? No, I guess what I guess I didn't, 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.560 you're right? Would when that ended, would you call the 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:43.560 news outlets and try to spin them? Um? Usually they're 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.880 calling you they had specific questions for whatever story they're 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:51.200 writing about it, and you know, can you explain ABC? Um? 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:53.800 I mean, you know, maybe I would have checked in, 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:55.600 do you have everything you need? Can I help with 0:23:55.640 --> 0:24:02.640 it anything? Um? But you're really the Wall Street Journal, 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:05.880 And if you've written a good press release for your 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:09.760 earnings and you know we had really good financial people 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.879 and investor relations people, You're not going to convince the 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:16.960 Wall Street Journal of something other than what they see 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:20.399 and what they're looking at. You can clarify things, you 0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:23.200 can get them more information, but it's not like I'm 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:24.919 going to go out there and all of a sudden 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:29.639 take you know, black and make it white. Okay. Now, 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:35.400 I'm very familiar with UH label publicity, which I think 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:38.199 most people can figure it out. But you say there 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:41.879 are fewer outlets and corporate publicity, and you talked about relationships. 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:45.680 How do you establish and keep up those relationships? Well, 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:48.440 I suppose it's like any kind of relationship. You treat 0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:53.360 people with respect, you're polite. Um, you return calls very 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:57.399 quickly because they're on deadline. Um. If you don't know something, 0:24:57.440 --> 0:24:59.720 you don't try to kind of bs your way through it. 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.200 It good question don't know. Let me check into it 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:06.240 and I'll get back to you. And you never ever 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:10.479 ever lie, okay, but let's assume it was off cycle. 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:13.520 In between quarterly things, would you call in just make nice, 0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:15.400 to keep the relationship and now you have a lunch 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:17.240 with you know, the key people. I don't know whether 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:20.119 it was every quarter or every six months, but uh. 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:22.760 And also when there were a lot more tickets for shows, 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:29.880 you'd invite them to shows. Okay, And you're doing two jobs. Now, 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:32.600 when someone does one job in the music business, they 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:35.000 have no life. How are you doing? What your life 0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:39.119 look like doing two jobs? Um? Well, I did have 0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:43.720 two departments supporting me. Um. You know, when you're in 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:48.080 your late twenties early thirties, it's very glamorous. And you know, 0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:51.160 I wasn't married then, I didn't have kids yet. Um, 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:52.840 so I didn't mind if I was going out five 0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:54.880 nights a week or I enjoyed going out five nights 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:58.119 a week. And you know, obviously this was pre everyone 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:00.439 having their computer at home or certainly you know, pre 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:03.800 BlackBerry and and iPhones, so you kind of you know, 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.160 when you finished with The New York Times at six o'clock, 0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:08.440 you were done till the next morning when you picked 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:10.320 up the paper and you saw what was in there, 0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:12.639 and there was sort of a relief in that you 0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:16.119 don't have this twenty four hour cycle of of um 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:21.520 you know that that we do now? Um? Why were 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:25.240 to my viewpoint, it seemed like the let me put 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:27.080 it this way, it seemed like the entry point at 0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:32.439 the label for women was through publicity department. Yeah, okay, 0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:35.000 and probably HR, but you never paid attention to HR. 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:41.159 Yes okay. UM. I don't know whether it felt like 0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:43.280 a more female thing that you know, you're kind of 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:45.280 catering to people and you're the one that sets up 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:51.200 the parties and you know, offers to poor people a drink. 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:54.080 I don't know. I mean obviously also you were not 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:57.359 controlling a P and l um, so you weren't on 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:04.040 an operational UM. I guess driving here was this actually sexism? 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:06.879 Were they basically saying, hey, you can do the publicitist 0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:10.640 publicity ghetto, but these other jobs maybe if you prove yourself, 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:13.960 but you were not going to let you right in. UM. 0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:16.480 I was so happy, as I think many people in 0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:19.119 my position, at least in the nineties were to have 0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:21.120 a seat at the table and be part of this. 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:28.440 It didn't even occur to me. I mean that that. Um, 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:31.119 I might have been able to do something else or 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:33.080 contribute in a different way. I just wanted to do 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:34.960 my job in the best. Okay, how about the other 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:38.600 end of it. Uh, you're an attractive young woman working 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:42.400 amongst a lot of high power people. Did people abuse 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:47.960 that relationship? Um? Did I ever have anything horrible happened 0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:53.960 to me? No? Horrible is a little strong. Uh. It 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:57.280 was different times, and you know I felt very comfortable 0:27:57.359 --> 0:28:02.200 and taking care of myself. Okay at this point in time, 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:05.800 do you think you have been consistent or you have 0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:08.440 a height and awareness and you might not tolerate stuff? 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:12.479 Oh yeah, I think everyone does. I mean I mentioned 0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:15.840 this to you. Before we started PolyGram, every year would 0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:18.480 have a very glamorous managing director's conference. I don't know, 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:22.400 two hundred people ten years and we went to Seville 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:28.480 in Berlin and Vancouver and um, Hong Kong, and out 0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:31.680 of two and fifty people, there were three women, which 0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:36.120 now that seems so bizarre to me. Three women, Um, 0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:40.600 the same three women by the way, UM, and so 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:44.520 that's a heavy ratio. What was it like being one 0:28:44.560 --> 0:28:47.480 of those women, Well, we were the junior people, and 0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:50.760 we were kind of, um, the favorite people. Everyone wanted 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:54.719 to sit with us because there were only three women exactly. Okay, 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:58.280 so you're rocking it, PolyGram. What's the next step? Uh, 0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:02.560 PolyGram gets sold to Universe. So and that was kind 0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:04.840 of a shock because you know, it was the biggest 0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:07.160 record company in the world, it was still very profitable 0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:11.000 and Napster had not hit yet. Um, and it was 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:13.560 quite a long time to close the deal. Well, actually, 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:16.480 first I should say I was on maternity leave with 0:29:16.520 --> 0:29:19.800 my second kid, and I came back early, which I 0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.280 now also think is stunning. You know, I had one 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:24.800 second kid and one maternity leave, and all of a 0:29:24.840 --> 0:29:27.520 sudden it became so important to come back after nine weeks. 0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:30.800 And I obviously never got that back, and no one 0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:33.640 cared on the other side. It's not like anyone said, oh, 0:29:33.840 --> 0:29:36.760 look at her, she's a saint. She came in after 0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:39.920 nine weeks ahead of time. I mean, that's just not 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:42.920 the way it worked. Um, it was about a year 0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:45.600 to close the deal. And then I mean I kept 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:47.520 a lot of the label people, you know, le are 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:50.120 obviously stayed and actually got more you know, when they 0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:55.080 combined Island def JAM UM, but anyone kind of in 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:58.240 a corporate staff level, UM what was out UM. But 0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:01.120 by them Roger Aames had been run. You know. Levy 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:03.640 was on top of everything, including the film division, and 0:30:03.800 --> 0:30:08.120 Roger Ames was running of the company UM that that 0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:12.360 was music, recorded music and publishing. And he and I, 0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:17.160 you know, were very close. UM. And he UM was 0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:20.760 talking to Jerry Levin and Dick Parsons about UM because 0:30:20.880 --> 0:30:22.960 as you remember, after the whole sort of thing in 0:30:23.000 --> 0:30:28.920 the mid nineties, UM, with the changes in management at UM, 0:30:29.000 --> 0:30:33.640 what was it It was Morgatto to Fuchs and and 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:36.720 then they gave it to the film guys Daily and 0:30:36.800 --> 0:30:41.200 Semmel Um Chris Daily and semi brilliant people. But they 0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:44.320 were on the West Coast and Warner Music was an 0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:50.600 East Coast based company. UM, and I think Jerry Um 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:53.720 and Dick Parsons decided UM they wanted to get a 0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:58.120 music I based in New York and Roger was available. UM. 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:00.720 It took a while to sort of get the deal done, 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:03.239 and then when he came in, he brought me in 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:05.040 and I started. The day that the A O. L 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:13.800 Time Warner merger was announced Okay, a couple of things. 0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:18.400 You see the end of polygrin. Are you uptight about 0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:20.160 what you're gonna do for a living? You just had 0:31:20.200 --> 0:31:23.720 another kid. I was very sad because it was it 0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:25.480 was a very important part of my life. It was 0:31:25.520 --> 0:31:27.840 a family to me. I mean, you know, the artists, 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:29.560 the people I worked with, and it just sort of 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:31.840 felt like I was being torn away from kind of 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:36.760 everything I knew, you know, in the bulk of my adulthood. Um. Now, 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.240 at that point, because the economy was good, the music induction. 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:41.680 You're the type of person, You're a survivor. You're gonna land. 0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:43.720 You believe you're gonna land on your feet, no matter 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:45.480 what I believe. You have to figure out a way 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:50.120 to land on your feet. Okay. So ultimately Aims closes 0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:54.000 with Warner and he brings you over. Now this is 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:57.880 solely as corporate publicity, right Yeah. Well I ended up, yes, 0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:00.520 no artist stuff, but I ended up adding things like 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:07.760 third party marketing and you know what is Oh, how 0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:12.240 would you explain it? NASCAR wants to do music based programming. UM, 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:15.120 so you partner with them so that you can expose 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.760 you know, some of your artists and um and then 0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:21.560 they also had all these committees because all of a sudden, 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:25.360 you know, Time Warner, which was famously siloed after the 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:27.920 A O L deal happened, they wanted to have synergy. 0:32:28.360 --> 0:32:31.000 So because there was a very small corporate staff, all 0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:33.920 of a sudden, I was the Synergy marketing person, the 0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:38.240 Synergy philanthropy person, the Synergy advertising person, which served me 0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:40.680 very well because I think there were eight or nine 0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:43.400 divisions then, so I got to know people all across 0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:46.120 all of the Time Warner divisions. Okay, so you started 0:32:46.240 --> 0:32:50.160 on the merger day. What was it like in the office. Well, 0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:53.720 people were in shock, as you can imagine, UM, And 0:32:57.000 --> 0:32:59.479 I don't think anyone from the end I was clearly 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:01.680 on the Time Warner side. I don't think anyone really 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:06.880 knew what to think. Um. And not too long afterwards, 0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:09.840 I remember there was an investor day where what it 0:33:09.880 --> 0:33:12.760 would have been Steve Case, Bob Pittman, Jerry live In, 0:33:13.320 --> 0:33:17.440 Dick Parsons and whoever. The Time Warner CFO was UM 0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:19.480 and each of the division heads. It was a whole 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.400 day thing we had to prepare. So this case Roger 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:24.720 had to give a half an hour of presentation about 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:27.240 why people should love Warner Music. But of course that 0:33:27.320 --> 0:33:29.479 was when Napster was starting to show. And of the 0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:33.320 eight or nine Time Warner divisions, the music division from 0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:37.640 a business standpoint, was arguably the most troubled. Um. So 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:40.160 there's like a big spotlight, and you had all these 0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:44.640 people jostling for position, for power, and even from the 0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:48.080 media standpoint, it was so interesting because as opposed to 0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:51.560 saying from the Wall Street Journal, this is our point person, 0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:53.880 you now had a point person who covered a O 0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:56.280 well and a point person who covered Time Warner. And 0:33:56.320 --> 0:34:01.880 you multiply that out against any sort of business outlet um, 0:34:01.520 --> 0:34:06.400 and it was a very leaky organization. Um yeah, every 0:34:06.440 --> 0:34:08.600 everyone was getting their agenda out there. So I mean 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:10.200 you could kind of look whether it was the New 0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:12.080 York Post or whether it was in New York Times 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:15.800 and figure out who was trying to say what. Um 0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:18.919 yeah it was. So what were some of your experiences there? 0:34:21.280 --> 0:34:24.280 You talked about nine eleven and what happened there? Okay, 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:28.080 so I was nine eleven. Um, almost all of us 0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:31.239 in the senior level, Um, we're out in l A. 0:34:31.440 --> 0:34:34.719 We came out like the last flight out um on 0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:37.799 the tent um and it was pouring in la or 0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:39.960 pouring in New York. So we were delayed, you know, 0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:44.279 didn't get to the hotel until two in the morning. Um. 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:47.600 Roger was out, Sylvia Rome was out, Valazzoli was out. 0:34:47.760 --> 0:34:52.000 It was a Latin Grammy Awards and it was um uh, 0:34:52.320 --> 0:34:55.720 Madonna's last show of this tour. So Liz Rosenberg was out, 0:34:56.480 --> 0:34:58.560 and there was a Mary Lynch conference, so Helen Murphy, 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:01.800 the CFO was out. So all of us were around, 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:04.839 and you know, we'd all watched this on TV. We 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:08.040 were all New Yorkers going trying to find our family. 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:12.520 You know, no cell phone, no New York cell phones worked. UM. 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:14.920 A very good friend of mine, actually, the woman who 0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:18.160 is my son's godmother, lost her husband in canter you know, 0:35:18.200 --> 0:35:19.960 and she called me and left me a message. So 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:22.319 I and I mean she knew because obviously all you 0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:23.719 had to do was look at the footage, and she 0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:26.600 knew he worked on the top floor. Um. And so 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.120 it all came crumbling down. And I think he had 0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:33.319 actually left her message saying you know, um, I think 0:35:33.320 --> 0:35:36.160 he said a bomb went off. UM. So I'm worried 0:35:36.200 --> 0:35:38.160 about one of my best friends in the world. But 0:35:38.200 --> 0:35:41.320 I can't even talk to her because the phones aren't working. 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:45.759 And also, as you remember, they closed um uh, you 0:35:45.800 --> 0:35:50.200 know any commercial flights. So what day? It was a Tuesday, 0:35:50.440 --> 0:35:52.200 And so every day we keep on thinking because time 0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:54.880 Warner than had a big fleet of jets. Okay, well 0:35:55.000 --> 0:35:57.200 we'll head up to Burbank and as soon as they 0:35:57.239 --> 0:36:01.640 open up, fly home. And when they came, first they 0:36:01.680 --> 0:36:06.400 came and went. And you remember Johnny Barbs, So Johnny 0:36:06.480 --> 0:36:09.760 was good friends with Whoopi Goldberg. Evidently Whoopi Goldberg doesn't 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:11.719 fly or doesn't fly a lot, and she had a 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:14.840 tricked out luxury bus. So when she used to go 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:17.759 to New York, she had these two drivers I think 0:36:17.760 --> 0:36:21.080 they were Vietnam vets. One would go for ten hours 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.880 then sleep, next one would go, you know, only stopping 0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:25.799 for gas. And they could do it, I don't know, 0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:30.520 fifty hours coast to coast. And so we actually sat 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:32.400 in the lobby at the Four Seasons, going, are we 0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:34.960 gonna wait for the planes, you know, to be able 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:36.920 to fly or do we get on a bus now 0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:38.960 with the idea that in two days will be home 0:36:40.040 --> 0:36:42.279 by in l Roger and Sylvie I remember stayed and 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:44.000 waited for the planes, and they did end up getting 0:36:44.040 --> 0:36:49.719 home before we did. The rest of us. Um. Val Um. 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:54.560 Liz Rosenberg, who didn't have kids, Um, Helen Murphy and 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:56.920 I decided we'd rather just be moving, you know, because 0:36:56.920 --> 0:37:00.479 otherwise we could be sitting there for another. To top 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:03.320 it all off, the night before, I got food poisoning. 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:07.960 So I've been up all night long and I'm completely green. Um. 0:37:08.000 --> 0:37:09.799 And what we had a nice bed because I was 0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:14.360 so sick. They gave me the bed and no, no, no, no, no, no, 0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:16.120 she just gave she and this is out of the 0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:19.400 goodness of her heart. UM. So Liz Rosenberg would come 0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:22.120 in and kind of you know, pat my head down, 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:24.560 and at night she and I I would say, I 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:29.680 slept with Liz Rosenberg, you know, going across country. Um. Yeah. 0:37:30.120 --> 0:37:32.960 And they had satellite TV so we could watch CNN, 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.480 but there was still no real communication in time time 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:41.160 with New York. Um. Yeah, so did the bus drop 0:37:41.200 --> 0:37:43.879 you off your front door? You know? The bus dropped 0:37:43.960 --> 0:37:46.160 val off in New Jersey and then the rest of 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:51.000 us were all Manhattan, Westchester, Connecticut. Um. So they picked 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:55.279 place um in Tarrytone, actually a mall, and you know, 0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:57.800 we and they told us beforehand, So we all told 0:37:58.000 --> 0:37:59.920 you know, whoever was going to pick us up meet 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:02.719 us here around this time. And what was it like 0:38:02.840 --> 0:38:05.480 being on the bus with these people for fifty hours? Well, 0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:07.959 I mean, like everyone else in America, we were all 0:38:08.000 --> 0:38:10.879 just shell shocked and people were trying to figure it out. 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:18.959 Uh yeah, I mean I had been I'd driven cross 0:38:19.040 --> 0:38:21.960 country before, so that wasn't particularly a novel. But you 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:24.759 were going that fast without stops. Okay, what were some 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:31.680 of the experiences there at time at Warner Music? Um, 0:38:31.800 --> 0:38:33.880 what were some of the experiences. Well, what I know 0:38:34.000 --> 0:38:39.440 is it ultimately that Roger was trying to do mergers. Yes, okay, 0:38:39.480 --> 0:38:41.360 so that's right. So so when the A O LL 0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:44.560 deal was announced, Roger was trying to merge Warner with 0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:48.560 am I part one. Um. So I spent the better 0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:51.040 part of a year, as did many lawyers. That's how 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:53.720 I got to Dick Parsons quite well, because the bigger 0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:58.840 issue was Brussels, not Washington, d C. European commissioners. So 0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:03.120 I learned a lot about European anti trust and you know, 0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:08.080 all the things that go into it. And in the end, um, 0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:12.440 the European Commission decided that in order to approve the 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:16.200 A O. L. Time Warner deal, that Time Warner would 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:18.960 have to give up the E M I deal. UM. 0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:21.040 And Dick Parsons will say to this day we got 0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:25.920 the wrong deal through through Brussels um, and that that 0:39:26.000 --> 0:39:27.839 was like a ten month process. But it was also 0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:29.720 lovely for me because I got to know Dick quite 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:33.360 well because by then, you know, Jerry's the CEO and 0:39:33.480 --> 0:39:37.239 Cases the chairman, and Bob was running kind of all 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:40.120 the divisions with the exception of music and film, and 0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:42.440 so you know, Dick was a lawyer, he was you know, 0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:46.279 had political background, and he was responsible for music. UM. 0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:48.719 Got on very well with Roger, you know, so he 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:53.879 spent a lot of time trying to shepherd this thing through. Um. Yeah, 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:57.640 didn't happen. Um. And then at one point I think 0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:03.000 Roger explored something with BMG, but were Sony Um, but 0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:06.080 there were. And then when the Sony BMG thing happened, 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:09.560 obviously it went from five majors to four, which made 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:13.399 it that much more difficult to do another deal. And 0:40:13.480 --> 0:40:17.839 when Jeff Bucas decided both because what do they call 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:22.200 it negative growth um uh, to get rid of them 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:26.160 the music Company two thousand three two four or printed 0:40:26.280 --> 0:40:29.520 up for sale because you know, given how much it 0:40:29.560 --> 0:40:32.680 was declining, no real light on the horizon, all the 0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:37.080 napster stuff and UM as well as trying to pay 0:40:37.120 --> 0:40:40.319 down some of the A O Well debt UM and 0:40:40.360 --> 0:40:43.279 that was kind of floating around for a while. Ultimately, 0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:46.120 as you know, it came down to UM, E, M, 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:51.000 I and UH and Edgar Bronfman. And in the end, 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:54.040 I think Jeff made the decision to go with Bronfman 0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:56.960 because he didn't want to spend ten months in Brussels 0:40:57.000 --> 0:40:59.640 trying to get any more. Gave it away a fewer 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:02.720 than three billion dollars two point eight billion. And now 0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:05.640 if you figure Universal and I actually talked to a 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:11.040 banker last night whom validated this, if Universal with the 0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:14.840 ten cent deal is now valued at thirty three billion 0:41:15.080 --> 0:41:18.000 and Warner giver take is about half the size. I mean, 0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:21.560 you can argue about the assets and publishing and everything 0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:28.560 probably worth at least fifteen billion now, so in sixteen years, 0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:31.760 just by continuing to be an operation it was worth 0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:34.840 that much. Where does that leave you when uh it 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:40.520 ultimately happens. Well, Roger, you know, had made a boatload 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:43.560 of money and decided he wanted to move back to London, 0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:45.799 and there wasn't probably a seat at the table for him, 0:41:45.840 --> 0:41:50.640 at least immediately. UM and Dick Parson said I really 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:53.080 want you to stay with Time Warner, and about a 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:55.920 week later said you should meet Anne Moore. She's our 0:41:56.000 --> 0:41:58.560 new chairman of Time Ink. I think you get along 0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:02.239 with her. She wants her own communications person. And so 0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.680 I literally walked half a block from seventy five Rock 0:42:05.840 --> 0:42:08.600 to the Time Life Building met Anne was hired. I 0:42:08.920 --> 0:42:11.279 got my payoff from Warner Music, and I think a 0:42:11.320 --> 0:42:13.960 week later started at Time Inc. Um. But it was 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:17.480 a culture shock. I mean, no one in the music 0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:19.799 business ever asked me if I went to college where 0:42:19.840 --> 0:42:21.520 I went to college where I studied. And I'm not 0:42:21.560 --> 0:42:23.120 saying it's a good or bad thing, but all of 0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:25.640 a sudden I'm on the executive floor of the Time 0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:28.520 Life Building, down the hall from where Henry Luce used 0:42:28.560 --> 0:42:34.400 to sit, not the only person without an Ivy League degree. UM. 0:42:35.560 --> 0:42:38.560 Again fascinating, and I walked in by the way at 0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:42.200 the time of the whole Scooter Libby UM Judy Miller 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:45.960 trial UM, which ended up the Supreme Court didn't hear it, 0:42:46.000 --> 0:42:49.000 but it went up to the court after that, which 0:42:49.160 --> 0:42:54.000 just you know, took over everything. Um because unlike the 0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:56.319 New York Times, because the New York Times never published it. 0:42:56.440 --> 0:42:59.520 Judy Miller, you know, was on the hook for it. 0:43:00.520 --> 0:43:05.319 But Time Magazine and the Washington um or the White 0:43:05.320 --> 0:43:10.480 House Reporter published something about the league, and therefore Time 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:15.680 Magazine was also being sued. UM. And Norm Pearlstein, who 0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:18.040 was editor in chief at the time now editor of 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:20.960 the l A Times, you know, absolutely brilliant, also a 0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:24.160 lawyer by training. Um. You know, it was really running 0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:27.120 a lot of the strategy. But it was super tricky. 0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:32.120 You know, if the highest legal entity says you need 0:43:32.160 --> 0:43:36.000 to do something in this case turn over your notes, um, 0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:39.800 it's hard to say, no, I don't agree with you. UM. 0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:43.680 But yet turning over notes are supposed to be confidential 0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:47.480 for journalistic organization is just about the worst you know, 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:50.760 sin you can um, you can have. And again this 0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:53.120 this went on for a long time while the White 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:56.279 House Reporter that was part of this whole thing, you know, 0:43:56.280 --> 0:43:58.520 at a young kid was terrified about getting thrown in 0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:00.439 jail in the case of duty Miller and I didn't 0:44:00.480 --> 0:44:02.480 know Judy at all. I mean I sat in some meetings. 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:06.120 The thinking was because she was behind some of the 0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:09.319 weapons of mass destruction, you know, a rocky coverage for 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:12.920 The Times that she sort of wanted to you know, 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:15.520 make up for that, and if she was gonna you know, 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:21.839 bite the bullet, you know, she would. Um. Ultimately, I 0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:24.880 guess right before they were going to be sentence sentenced. 0:44:24.920 --> 0:44:28.239 And I have no idea why they did this, um, 0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:31.600 but Carl Rose, attorney said, you know you're free to 0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:33.520 do you know, if you need to turn it over, 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:38.200 turn it over. Uh, and that let us off the hook. Judy, 0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:42.799 I think did go to jail for a couple of months. UM. 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:45.719 Very interesting stuff. So what was it like, what was 0:44:45.800 --> 0:44:48.000 your role of what was your experience in the belly 0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:52.040 of the beast? Well, um, I mean it got so 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:55.560 much coverage, I mean every day from so many different outlets. 0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:57.480 I mean it was TV coverage. It was if there 0:44:57.560 --> 0:45:00.600 was a court hearing, you know, camera is all over, 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:03.400 you know. And it wasn't just the New York Times, 0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:08.719 Wall Street Journal, you know, it was Newsweek and UM 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:11.799 and things like the New York Observer. UM, you know, 0:45:11.840 --> 0:45:14.359 international papers were looking at this so it was a 0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:16.799 big deal and you had to figure you know, you 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:18.839 had to figure out, based on the events of that 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:22.839 time that that particular day or event, what you were 0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:26.239 going to say, and you would figure it out or 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:28.920 you're you're right it and then ask uh. Well, I 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:31.960 worked closely with Norman and the other lawyers involved. I 0:45:31.960 --> 0:45:33.839 mean I certainly was not in a position to do 0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:36.960 anything laterally in a case that big. I would never 0:45:36.960 --> 0:45:41.160 do anything, you know, without a lawyer anyway. Okay, Now 0:45:41.200 --> 0:45:45.800 it's ironic that that was run by Ivy League people 0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:51.759 and that created when the music business went up. What 0:45:51.960 --> 0:45:55.160 was that experience for you? Well, in the beginning, remember 0:45:55.640 --> 0:45:57.719 Time magazine was one of the premier and one of 0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:03.240 the largest and most prestigious media companies of the century. Um. 0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:05.440 And even when I got there, we would still do 0:46:05.560 --> 0:46:09.960 talks with with you know, Justice Scalia, Senator Obama when 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:14.480 he was still senator um. Uh. You know, I can 0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:17.560 remember Steve Jobs coming in, you know, the show people 0:46:17.640 --> 0:46:21.640 the iPhone. Um. I mean people still cared about those titles. 0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.040 And I'm not just talking about Time and Fortune. I 0:46:24.040 --> 0:46:28.200 mean from the entertainment side, obviously, people Entertainment Weekly. Um. 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:30.600 From a sports side Sports Illustrated. I mean you could 0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:34.640 sort of get to anyone in any area, and publishing 0:46:34.800 --> 0:46:39.520 was still relatively healthy until maybe two thousand seven or eight, 0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:44.560 when you know, both consumer behavior changed, meaning getting their 0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:49.640 news from the internet, and advertisers change, meaning you know, 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:55.759 advertising either on social platforms or the internet. Um. And 0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:58.480 I felt I felt so much deja vu because I 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:00.799 was like, I've been there before, I've seen this movie, 0:47:01.120 --> 0:47:03.160 and people sometimes would look at me like you see 0:47:03.200 --> 0:47:06.680 around corners. It's it's like, no, I just have kind 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.440 of seen this movie. Because I would say music business 0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:13.000 was the canary in the coal mine for digital disruption. Well, 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:16.799 I remember at some time Warner offsite, Um, some of 0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:21.800 the film guys were basically you music people, and Roger 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:23.759 was so fired up and he's just like, you know, 0:47:23.840 --> 0:47:25.879 you just wait until those pipes are bigger and it's 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:30.360 going to be your turn to How did the people 0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:33.239 at the top when, when and how did they wake up? 0:47:33.320 --> 0:47:37.719 What did that look like? Well, they were very smart people. Um. 0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:41.640 I mean they may not have grown up in internet world. 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:47.879 Um uh, But I remember, um Going Out was then 0:47:47.880 --> 0:47:50.960 the All Things deconference, now the Recode conference with Anne 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:54.160 Moore and it was almost like she got real. I mean, 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:55.879 now all the big media people do it, but at 0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:57.759 the time it was a very techy thing and she 0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:01.239 was one of the first traditional media accompany people to go. 0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:04.440 And we you know, at the time time had a 0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:06.879 magazine Business two point oh, and the Business two point 0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:10.239 oh editor worked with her quick study. I mean, you know, 0:48:10.680 --> 0:48:12.840 did some Q and A like this and the things. 0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:15.839 You know. Either she didn't get right the first time, 0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:20.160 she got right the second time, UM and UM. And 0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:22.200 I think the fact, you know, she kind of raised 0:48:22.200 --> 0:48:24.120 her hand and said, we want to be in business 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:27.319 with you. And whether it's doing deals or you know, 0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:30.759 sharing content. Um. You know, she got real credit for that. 0:48:30.840 --> 0:48:34.080 I mean, I still remember their special edition was George 0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:37.080 Lucas and more and Steve Jobs, and I thought, okay, 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:40.640 that's not bad. Okay, did you interact with Steve Jobs 0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:45.960 when Rod Raames was Yeah, because actually, UM, for the 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:49.240 development of the iTunes store, Warner was the first company 0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:53.120 in and I'm not sure what the historical precedents for 0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.520 that was, but I went out two or three times 0:48:56.160 --> 0:49:00.160 and um to Coopertino just with Roger with the way 0:49:00.239 --> 0:49:03.680 or a digital guy to talk through, and Roger's pitch 0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:07.359 two jobs was, it's like the mafia families do not 0:49:07.600 --> 0:49:10.640 try to get all five companies to agree on things. 0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:14.120 You know, you decide what you want, we'll make the 0:49:14.120 --> 0:49:19.120 introduction to Universal. You have number one and two companies. Um, 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:21.200 And that's what happened. I mean, everyone else was just 0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:23.840 goofing around or well, I just Roger told me. He 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:28.879 told Universal, Uh, either you're in or from resigning from 0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:31.319 the r I double A. Well he did tell the 0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:33.080 r I double A I am not going to be 0:49:33.200 --> 0:49:37.480 part of suing consumers for illegal downloading until we give 0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:41.120 them a legal option. Okay, but did you actually hang 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:46.120 around jobs? Do you have any insights there? Uh? I 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:50.200 won't say. Well, actually, after Warner Music was sold, he 0:49:50.239 --> 0:49:52.600 asked me to come out and meet the Pixar people 0:49:52.600 --> 0:49:56.880 about working for Pixar. And I only realized afterwards. You 0:49:56.920 --> 0:49:59.280 sort of start with HR and then if you anyone 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:01.279 continue I didn't realize that. And it's kind of I 0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:04.200 think a Silicon Valley thing. And if you pass with 0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:08.279 UM HR, you got I don't know, legal and then 0:50:08.320 --> 0:50:10.799 you go to finance and you know, then you end 0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:14.919 up with you know, uh, John Lasseter and UM. And 0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:17.399 then at the end of you know, a long day, 0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:19.880 they said, you know, you should go over to Cupertino 0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:25.160 and UM and meet with Steve again. UM. Now, I'm 0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:27.880 not sure that I would have been offered the job, 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:30.319 but I also knew that I didn't want to move 0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:32.799 to northern California. I mean, my family was quite young, 0:50:33.200 --> 0:50:36.160 you know, my extended family, most of them were in 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:40.160 New York. UM. And after while the tunnel in my 0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:46.000 work life, UM, I became very focused on you can't 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:47.880 make work the center and you know if it doesn't 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.120 fit in the rest of your life, because that can 0:50:50.160 --> 0:50:52.279 go away and your rest of your life is not 0:50:52.320 --> 0:50:54.400 going to go away. Well, I guess you worked with 0:50:54.400 --> 0:50:57.680 an or of experience, a lot of big personalities. What 0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:02.600 did you learn about these titans of the industry. Well, 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:08.640 some of them had um amazing manners. UM. I mean, 0:51:08.719 --> 0:51:11.359 Dick was is just the most polite person. I mean 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:13.160 I could send Dick a book and I would get 0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:15.839 a personalized thank you note. I mean from from from 0:51:15.840 --> 0:51:20.799 the chairman. UM. Rogers, you know, is very blunt but 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:25.080 also polite in his UM, in his own way. I'm 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:27.839 certainly not a screamer. You know, I worked a lot 0:51:27.880 --> 0:51:30.719 with Chris Blackwell, both in my consulting business and when 0:51:30.760 --> 0:51:34.320 he was at Ireland. Um I was so I was 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:36.880 probably more intimidated by Chris and anyone else in the 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:39.760 beginning at PolyGram because to me he was such a legend. 0:51:39.800 --> 0:51:42.839 He signed my two favorite artists of all time, which 0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:48.680 are two and who by um. And he was so 0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:51.399 cool that before one of these conferences that I told 0:51:51.440 --> 0:51:55.040 you about where there were only three women, Golden Eye 0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:57.680 hadn't opened yet. He was still his personal home even 0:51:57.680 --> 0:52:01.800 though he was building out the um the Hudson Villas. 0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:04.880 He invited the three of us down for the weekend 0:52:04.920 --> 0:52:14.480 before the conference started. I was like, how cool is that? Right? Um? No, 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:17.600 And he's someone who I guess like Steve Jobs, very 0:52:17.640 --> 0:52:21.120 different personally, but he had a vision. Even if everyone 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:22.920 else didn't agree with the vision, he was going to 0:52:23.040 --> 0:52:25.359 go with that vision. You know, it is to think 0:52:25.440 --> 0:52:27.839 different things. Okay, so you were one on one with 0:52:27.880 --> 0:52:31.480 Steve Jobs. Uh yeah, but the Pixar thing, Yeah, I 0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:34.800 mean I was how long did that last? Was he blunt? 0:52:34.920 --> 0:52:39.400 Was he nice? He was blunt? And he wasn't not nice? 0:52:39.440 --> 0:52:41.600 I mean, I wouldn't say he was warm and fuzzy. 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:44.279 I also at that time this would have been I 0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:49.280 guess two thousand three or four ish. Because I didn't 0:52:49.320 --> 0:52:51.400 come from a tech world. I didn't realize that Steve 0:52:51.480 --> 0:52:54.160 Jobs was like this. I mean, I know, a big deale. 0:52:54.160 --> 0:52:56.200 Apple was a big deal, but Apple was not not 0:52:56.280 --> 0:52:58.239 at the time, you know, the most valuable company in 0:52:58.239 --> 0:53:01.120 the world. Steve Jobs wasn't mus around the world that 0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:04.200 way outside of you know, kind of a business and 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:09.000 tech community. Um. So I didn't know enough to be intimidated. 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:16.759 I guess, Okay, So how does it end with time? Uh? 0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:20.640 The chairman retired after thirty seven years. And she was 0:53:20.680 --> 0:53:23.760 an interesting story. I mean, she spent her Harvard Business School. 0:53:23.840 --> 0:53:26.360 Right out of Harvard Business School, first class of women. 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:31.200 There weren't even female bathrooms when she was there. Um 0:53:31.400 --> 0:53:34.680 gets offered thirteen jobs, lowest paying, most time, inc And 0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:37.760 again she liked magazine. She didn't want to be a banker, 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:39.960 and she went there and made more money than she 0:53:39.960 --> 0:53:41.960 would have anywhere else. And she was kind of known 0:53:42.000 --> 0:53:46.120 as the launch queen. You know, she developed in style 0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:49.839 with the idea that um, you know, women don't just 0:53:49.880 --> 0:53:52.759 want the aspirational Vogue. Look, they want the practical work, 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:54.520 and I buy it. How much does a cost? Which 0:53:54.560 --> 0:53:57.520 became incredibly successful, not just in the US but around 0:53:57.560 --> 0:54:03.720 the world. Um, she launched and more. She launched Real Simple. 0:54:04.160 --> 0:54:06.960 You know, the idea that the average American woman spends 0:54:07.080 --> 0:54:09.399 twenty minutes a day looking for something. If you can 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:12.200 help them organize their life, you give them time back, 0:54:12.200 --> 0:54:15.480 which is more valuable than anything. Um. She changed people 0:54:16.000 --> 0:54:18.680 from black and white to color because who wants to 0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:22.680 look at black and white oscar dresses? Um? Uh? And 0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:27.000 she had um this is before my time. But when 0:54:27.000 --> 0:54:30.040 she was general manager of Sports Illustrated and I guess 0:54:30.080 --> 0:54:32.520 this would have been late eighties early nineties, they told 0:54:32.520 --> 0:54:34.719 her because she was a woman, she was never going 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:38.720 to be president publisher of Sports Illustrated. UM. And Timing 0:54:38.840 --> 0:54:40.719 also like to move people around, so it wasn't the 0:54:40.800 --> 0:54:43.920 end of the world. But at that point ESPNO just launched. 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:46.279 She's like, we should take a piece of this because 0:54:46.320 --> 0:54:49.720 this is s I on TV. And they didn't listen 0:54:49.760 --> 0:54:54.919 to her, so she resigns. Oh, she retires, I mean um. 0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:59.640 And then Jeff brought in a guy, Jeff Bukus, who 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:02.400 was so CEO Dick had retired a few years before 0:55:02.520 --> 0:55:06.240 as as Time Warners CEO, Jeff Road and a guy. Um. 0:55:07.760 --> 0:55:11.040 And you know, Jeff's focus was never publishing, and publishing 0:55:11.080 --> 0:55:13.200 was starting to decline. So I think he just wanted 0:55:13.880 --> 0:55:16.400 was an m B A. You know, he went to Yale. 0:55:16.640 --> 0:55:21.440 Jeff went to Yale. They were not like stylistically at all. Um. 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:23.480 And as people do, this guy came in and kind 0:55:23.480 --> 0:55:28.239 of took everyone out on that senior level, um, particularly 0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:30.520 women and the only black man I will say at 0:55:30.560 --> 0:55:34.160 the senior level. Um. But it was done in such 0:55:34.200 --> 0:55:39.240 a ham fisted way that after five months he was fired. 0:55:39.280 --> 0:55:43.400 And it wasn't a euphemism about pursuing other opportunities. It 0:55:43.440 --> 0:55:47.279 was like, now this didn't work out, bad culture fit me. 0:55:47.360 --> 0:55:49.520 I'm sure he got a very big check, um. But 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:51.520 I do give a lot of credit for Jeff that 0:55:51.560 --> 0:55:54.480 he didn't double down, you know, with more people leaving 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:58.880 in more damage. Um. Yeah, tid is it in with 0:55:58.960 --> 0:56:01.919 you with that new Yeah. So I got I got 0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:04.120 a you know, like a bunch of people um that 0:56:04.680 --> 0:56:09.800 he wanted to replace us. I got another substantial check. Um. 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:11.680 And because I had always gone from corporate job to 0:56:11.719 --> 0:56:14.000 corporate job. And I had about a month or two 0:56:14.080 --> 0:56:16.880 of like cleaning up at Time Inc. And I started 0:56:16.880 --> 0:56:20.200 getting phone calls. The Harvard Business Review is run by 0:56:20.239 --> 0:56:24.200 some x Time guys, and they're like, you know, we'd 0:56:24.239 --> 0:56:26.480 love it if you work with us for six months 0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:28.480 and we have some junior people and just kind of 0:56:28.520 --> 0:56:32.680 give us a template and organize things. And then UM, 0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:36.000 the general counsel of Sony, Julie Swidler, is a good 0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:40.360 friend of mine and UM. At the time, Rob Stringer 0:56:40.440 --> 0:56:42.719 was at Columbia and he had to stand, I'm sure 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:45.520 you got it right. The hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Columbia, 0:56:45.640 --> 0:56:48.120 that big beautiful book, and you know it was a 0:56:48.120 --> 0:56:51.759 Pulitzer Prize winning author Sean Lens that wrote it, and 0:56:51.760 --> 0:56:53.800 and Rob really had a vision. They didn't want this 0:56:53.880 --> 0:56:56.120 to be a promotional thing. That he wanted it to 0:56:56.160 --> 0:57:00.040 really speak to the legacy and artistry of Columbia and 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:03.600 its artists and you know those event at the Grammy Museum. 0:57:03.640 --> 0:57:08.279 And so I worked with him on that. UM and 0:57:08.320 --> 0:57:10.600 then the best one was I got a call just 0:57:10.640 --> 0:57:14.640 from someone I knew, UM that knew Ken Parks Um 0:57:14.680 --> 0:57:16.919 saying you should go in and meet Ken Parks because 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:20.360 Spotify is going to launch here. And the PR the 0:57:20.360 --> 0:57:22.920 woman that ran PR in London who since left, but 0:57:23.200 --> 0:57:25.960 um Angela Watt, brilliant, but she was sitting in London 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:28.320 and it was launching in the US UM and she 0:57:28.400 --> 0:57:30.640 came back and forth a lot. At the time. I 0:57:30.680 --> 0:57:33.160 think they didn't have headcount or couldn't afford a full 0:57:33.200 --> 0:57:36.240 time person in the US, so they wanted someone essentially 0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:38.800 for the equivalent of three days a week to help 0:57:38.840 --> 0:57:41.720 them with the launch, and someone who had good US 0:57:41.840 --> 0:57:45.720 media contacts, and someone who understood the traditional music industry, 0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:50.760 the players, the business. And so before I even walk 0:57:50.800 --> 0:57:54.240 out the door, I've got these three great clients. And 0:57:54.480 --> 0:57:56.600 I never thought of myself as a consultant, and I 0:57:56.640 --> 0:57:58.680 always liked the idea of having a structure in the 0:57:58.720 --> 0:58:02.480 office camaraderie. But this was also so interesting to me 0:58:02.600 --> 0:58:05.560 because there was nothing that I was hearing about that 0:58:05.640 --> 0:58:08.560 was more interesting than the combination of these things. And 0:58:08.600 --> 0:58:10.720 other things came in and out. When the Harvard business 0:58:10.720 --> 0:58:15.240 went away, I got pulled into Martha Stewart, which was interesting. 0:58:17.040 --> 0:58:19.800 No after that, Lisa Gersh was running it at the time. 0:58:21.760 --> 0:58:26.400 Uh yeah, I like I decided I liked having the 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:31.360 variety and and and and the combination and two thousandleven 0:58:32.960 --> 0:58:36.720 and it also and I don't think I articulated it 0:58:36.760 --> 0:58:39.440 to myself for anyone at the time, but in retrospect, 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:42.160 it's like, sometimes when these things happen, you have to 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:45.800 figure out how to reinvent yourself. And I tried to 0:58:45.840 --> 0:58:51.880 reinvent myself from a traditional you know, big company, traditional 0:58:51.960 --> 0:58:55.919 media person to someone kind of on this nexus of 0:58:55.960 --> 0:59:00.000 whether you want to say media or entertainment and tech um, 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:02.520 which was where a lot of the future was going 0:59:09.080 --> 0:59:11.400 at this point in time. Do you troll for work 0:59:11.480 --> 0:59:14.120 or the clients find you? No, I don't really troll 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:17.840 for work. UM. Uh, you know people. Okay. When Ken 0:59:17.840 --> 0:59:21.840 Parts left Spotify after um, you know, four years later, 0:59:21.880 --> 0:59:26.360 and he went to um another digital startup, Pluto TV, 0:59:26.480 --> 0:59:29.240 which is a free ad supported service, you know, he 0:59:29.320 --> 0:59:32.320 brought me in as a consultant. Um. You know. So 0:59:32.360 --> 0:59:35.920 it's all sort of the relationships stuff. UM. The SA 0:59:35.960 --> 0:59:38.200 Sack people hired me for a while because they wanted 0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:42.360 some help. They were doing some rebranding and UM okay, 0:59:42.360 --> 0:59:46.720 but let's stop with okay, Uh, what did you actually do? 0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:50.240 They were rebuilding their website. So some of it too 0:59:50.360 --> 0:59:52.880 was I was no longer just a publicist or even 0:59:52.880 --> 0:59:57.080 just a corporate communications person. It became broader in terms 0:59:57.160 --> 1:00:02.360 of you know, branding, communication shans and whether that meant materials, 1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:07.080 you know, websites, one sheet, whether that meant events. UM, 1:00:08.840 --> 1:00:10.920 you know, figure out what was right for the client 1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:13.440 and what they needed and what they wanted. What do 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:16.880 you do for Spotify? Um? Well, for Spotify in the beginning, 1:00:16.920 --> 1:00:19.040 as I said, they didn't have anyone in the US. UM. 1:00:19.600 --> 1:00:23.280 And right off the bat we had UM big, big 1:00:23.360 --> 1:00:27.360 feature in in Business Week and Daniel was supposed to 1:00:27.400 --> 1:00:29.360 be on the cover. He did a photo shoot with 1:00:29.480 --> 1:00:32.600 Christina Aguilara. I went to Irving and said, this is 1:00:32.640 --> 1:00:34.960 great for her, and she's been all these magazine covers. 1:00:35.000 --> 1:00:37.520 I think it was just when the Voice was launching. UM, 1:00:38.520 --> 1:00:41.520 you know, she'll look cool. This will be good for everyone. 1:00:41.800 --> 1:00:45.640 UM an eight page feature. Unfortunately, it was the week 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:50.360 that the Murdoch um uh scandal broke about um uh 1:00:52.040 --> 1:00:55.280 the news of the world stuff and UM. Josh Terangel, 1:00:55.360 --> 1:00:59.200 who was then the top editor at Business Week, called me. 1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:01.520 He said, I love the story. You're gonna love this story. 1:01:02.280 --> 1:01:03.640 I'm sorry to tell you it's not going to be 1:01:03.720 --> 1:01:07.080 the cover anymore because we're Business Week and the business 1:01:07.120 --> 1:01:12.760 story of the week is Rupert Murdoch. Um. Okay, So 1:01:13.040 --> 1:01:18.280 at this late date in corporate publicity, is it the 1:01:18.520 --> 1:01:23.400 same usual suspect outlets? Well, I think some of kind 1:01:23.440 --> 1:01:27.240 of following by the wayside, and I think social obviously 1:01:27.320 --> 1:01:29.280 means a lot more. You have to have a social 1:01:29.360 --> 1:01:36.360 strategy and someone who understands that, um much more cycle. No, 1:01:36.520 --> 1:01:39.919 I think there's a lot more blogs. I'm actually first 1:01:40.000 --> 1:01:45.200 talking about your role, okay, because you're more in corporate publicity. Okay, 1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:49.800 so certainly with regular publicity the whole game has changed. 1:01:50.360 --> 1:01:52.240 But I think corporate I mean I would count you 1:01:52.320 --> 1:01:56.520 as someone, whether you want to say influencer or um, 1:01:57.600 --> 1:01:59.800 if I was trying to, you know, work on this 1:02:00.000 --> 1:02:05.240 story that had some kind of connection to the music industry, 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:09.320 if not the wider entertainment industry. I mean, you're the 1:02:09.440 --> 1:02:11.880 kind of person that that I would go to because 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:14.600 a lot of people, um, I don't know, you know 1:02:14.680 --> 1:02:17.680 how many people read you, but a lot of important 1:02:17.720 --> 1:02:19.920 people read you. Um, and a lot of people who 1:02:20.000 --> 1:02:23.080 care a lot maybe who care more than the people 1:02:23.120 --> 1:02:24.920 who read the New York Times. Well, let's go droll 1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:26.960 a little bit deeper. What do we know it used 1:02:27.000 --> 1:02:29.480 to be? If it was in the New York Times, 1:02:29.920 --> 1:02:34.080 everybody knew. Okay, as a result of the right denigrating 1:02:34.120 --> 1:02:36.400 the New York Times and as a result of so 1:02:36.560 --> 1:02:40.160 many media outlets, it's in the New York Times a 1:02:40.400 --> 1:02:43.240 smaller percentage of people, because don't forget that's an influencer. 1:02:43.440 --> 1:02:46.800 New York Times is not only an influence. So it's 1:02:46.800 --> 1:02:48.960 when the evening news is built off of right exactly. 1:02:49.360 --> 1:02:52.520 But there's no longer one outlet that can reach the 1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:54.720 country at large. Yes, New York Times will be reach 1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:58.080 everybody in Washington and people there. So how do you 1:02:58.160 --> 1:03:01.520 approach the game now? Well, I think let's stick with 1:03:01.600 --> 1:03:05.320 your New York Times. Um idea. You get a story 1:03:05.320 --> 1:03:07.840 in the New York Times. And even if this person, 1:03:08.160 --> 1:03:11.280 whether they're in Detroit or whether they're down the street 1:03:11.320 --> 1:03:16.040 here in Hollywood, um, you know, doesn't read the New 1:03:16.120 --> 1:03:19.280 York Times. We didn't see it. That's why you place 1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:23.160 it on your social channels or you blasts out an email. Okay, 1:03:23.320 --> 1:03:27.480 let's be very specific. If it's a business story. Do 1:03:27.600 --> 1:03:30.440 you say, well, you know, if I get in New 1:03:30.520 --> 1:03:32.480 York Times, I get a business week, it covers my 1:03:32.560 --> 1:03:35.000 target market. Or do you actually go to socials on 1:03:35.080 --> 1:03:38.040 a business story? Oh? No, you definitely go to socials. Um, 1:03:38.520 --> 1:03:42.280 what is what is the thinking? Um? Because a lot 1:03:42.360 --> 1:03:45.080 of people get their information from socials? Are those people 1:03:45.120 --> 1:03:47.480 you need to reach on a corporate level? I'm not 1:03:47.560 --> 1:03:50.760 sure that we know? It was interesting? Is you know? 1:03:50.880 --> 1:03:54.960 The Billboard Power Issue came out this week and just 1:03:55.080 --> 1:03:59.640 scrolling through Instagram, I was surprised at how many people 1:04:00.640 --> 1:04:04.000 that were named in the Power Issue printed up on 1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:09.000 their feeds. If you were named in the Power Issue, 1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:13.720 would you put it on your feed? I'm I'm pretty 1:04:13.720 --> 1:04:15.440 sure I've never thought about that, and I don't think 1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:17.560 I will be named to the Power Issue. Um, I 1:04:17.600 --> 1:04:19.840 guess what I'm saying. Do we live in an era 1:04:20.240 --> 1:04:24.160 in the old area? You worked at Time inc? Self publicity? 1:04:24.240 --> 1:04:28.439 Self promotion was pooh pooh? Is that completely flipped? Well? 1:04:28.520 --> 1:04:32.320 Self promotion was pooh pood? But you had maybe at 1:04:32.360 --> 1:04:37.120 the fifteen thousand employees three thousand journalists. Journalists all have 1:04:37.240 --> 1:04:40.560 friends to their journalists, all of whom are very good 1:04:40.600 --> 1:04:43.960 at telling stories. So I mean, when I was at 1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:46.760 Warner Music, if the Wall Street Journal called, I don't 1:04:46.760 --> 1:04:48.600 think anyone would want to pick up the call because 1:04:48.600 --> 1:04:50.280 they would just feel like all I can do is 1:04:50.360 --> 1:04:53.440 just muck this up. You're at time ink and whatever 1:04:53.680 --> 1:04:56.800 the official line is, you had three thousand people with 1:04:57.040 --> 1:05:00.280 varying opinions, all getting out there on background find you, 1:05:01.280 --> 1:05:04.400 but all getting out there. Okay, So let's say a 1:05:04.560 --> 1:05:08.240 corporate when you worked with Spotify and not granted that 1:05:08.320 --> 1:05:11.560 started two thousand eleven, maybe that's not a good example. 1:05:11.840 --> 1:05:16.600 When you work with Pluto TV, did you uh use socials? 1:05:17.400 --> 1:05:20.920 I didn't personally because they had someone in house. I 1:05:20.960 --> 1:05:22.960 don't know whether it was part of the marketing department 1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:25.200 that was assigned that uh. And I don't feel like 1:05:25.280 --> 1:05:28.680 I have a particular expertise and social I just believe 1:05:28.760 --> 1:05:31.800 that you have to have UM for a business or 1:05:31.800 --> 1:05:36.760 an entity, consistent messaging. You should use best practice with 1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:42.040 how often you post on various UM on various platforms UM. 1:05:43.000 --> 1:05:45.240 You should have some kind of goal, whether it's you 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.880 want to increase you know, viewers or users on x 1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:52.160 y Z platform. You should focus probably on no more 1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:56.040 than two platforms. UM Uh, you know, I don't believe 1:05:56.160 --> 1:05:58.640 in trying to do Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:04.240 YouTube and because question, Um, I think you kind of 1:06:04.520 --> 1:06:09.160 delude things. And I think in most most companies there's 1:06:09.200 --> 1:06:12.960 a more natural fit. Um. You know, I don't know, 1:06:13.040 --> 1:06:16.200 I'm making this up. Maybe more mainstream you would use Facebook, 1:06:16.320 --> 1:06:20.120 maybe more insider. Okay, I use the example got Time 1:06:20.200 --> 1:06:22.680 Flies By. It's probably two thousand and eight, maybe even 1:06:22.720 --> 1:06:26.240 a couple of years later. Tom Petty had a new album. Now, 1:06:26.360 --> 1:06:29.800 someone who's paying a lot of attention to media, it 1:06:30.000 --> 1:06:35.120 was in every media outlet, I mean every are you 1:06:35.200 --> 1:06:40.160 writing about that? I'm offended, okay, by the same token people. Well, 1:06:40.240 --> 1:06:42.680 the average person is not paying as much attention as 1:06:42.720 --> 1:06:46.800 I am. So is carpet bombing publicity a good thing 1:06:46.960 --> 1:06:55.360 or a bad thing? Um? Well, I I don't think 1:06:55.400 --> 1:06:57.600 there's one answer to that. I think it depends on 1:06:57.760 --> 1:07:01.680 what the person or the project is. And I would 1:07:01.760 --> 1:07:05.160 say being authentic has always been important, but being authentic 1:07:05.320 --> 1:07:07.800 is more important now than ever. And people can really 1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:12.680 smell of fake. Um. And where's the audience that you're 1:07:12.720 --> 1:07:16.120 trying to reach yourself to? Um? And if they're not 1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:19.760 on this platform or in this outlet, I would put 1:07:19.880 --> 1:07:22.440 more energy into places where you're going to find people, 1:07:22.560 --> 1:07:25.600 whether you're existing people or your new people, would be 1:07:25.720 --> 1:07:29.920 my philosophy. Okay, let's start from the very beginning of today. 1:07:30.440 --> 1:07:32.919 What we know is we live in a cacophonoust tower 1:07:33.000 --> 1:07:37.040 of Babel society. Okay, and it's as I believe, people 1:07:37.240 --> 1:07:40.040 know more than they've ever known before because they have 1:07:40.160 --> 1:07:44.680 the device in their hand, but a great percentage of 1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:46.800 them don't know single things. I use an example of 1:07:46.800 --> 1:07:52.360 the music business Spotify top top fifty. They believe everybody 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:55.680 knows Drake Salt if everybody knows Taylor's wist songs. But 1:07:55.800 --> 1:07:58.600 never in the history of modern pop music have fewer 1:07:58.720 --> 1:08:04.480 people been familiar with the so called hits. So how 1:08:04.600 --> 1:08:06.680 do you get a message across ro just say I'm 1:08:06.680 --> 1:08:11.080 gonna jump in the water like everybody else. I can't 1:08:11.120 --> 1:08:13.280 give you to me. It's out of one size fits 1:08:13.320 --> 1:08:18.599 all answer. It's what's your product, service, person, artist, um 1:08:19.120 --> 1:08:20.240 and what do you want to try to do? You 1:08:20.320 --> 1:08:24.040 want to maintain existing, you want to grow you're existing? 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:28.480 You want to get new audiences. Who are those new audiences? 1:08:28.520 --> 1:08:32.639 Where are they? Are they demographic? Are they geographic. Um. 1:08:33.600 --> 1:08:36.599 I think you need to ask yourself that, um. Kind 1:08:36.680 --> 1:08:39.720 of every time is you're looking at where you want 1:08:39.760 --> 1:08:41.439 to put your effort. I mean, going back to your 1:08:41.479 --> 1:08:45.760 Tom Petty example, I mean Tom Petty only has so 1:08:45.840 --> 1:08:50.960 many hours to devote to doing media, So let's figure 1:08:51.000 --> 1:08:54.040 out what the priorities are. Well, let's use an example. 1:08:54.160 --> 1:08:56.080 I mean, I've been using this for a while, but 1:08:56.080 --> 1:08:58.920 everybody says, if we if I kill somebody out in 1:08:58.960 --> 1:09:01.479 the street and it's in the afternoon. Now, but let's 1:09:01.479 --> 1:09:03.760 assume it's nine in the morning, that will be news 1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:08.559 told about one o'clock and something else will happen thereafter. Okay, 1:09:09.080 --> 1:09:12.600 how do you keep something top of mind? Well, I 1:09:12.640 --> 1:09:15.400 think that's a problem that people have shorter attention spans, um. 1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:19.680 And we've seen that even with Trump, right, I mean, 1:09:20.200 --> 1:09:22.479 you know, he tweets something outrageous when he wants to 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:27.760 take attention away from something else. Um. Uh. People go 1:09:27.920 --> 1:09:31.439 to the media or the outlets that reflect what they think, um, 1:09:32.439 --> 1:09:35.599 and therefore reinforce what they're already thinking. I mean, it's 1:09:35.720 --> 1:09:37.920 it's a problem issue. I I don't have an answer 1:09:37.960 --> 1:09:42.559 for that one. Okay. Now, they're also things that everybody 1:09:42.600 --> 1:09:46.320 will know for a day and forget about. So are 1:09:46.400 --> 1:09:50.320 you better off with a slow burn campaign or you know, 1:09:51.040 --> 1:09:55.240 all hands on deck campaign? Well, okay, from an artist 1:09:55.320 --> 1:09:59.200 publicity standpoint, um, Certainly in the nineties the rule of 1:09:59.320 --> 1:10:01.559 thumb was, you know, ever put anyone on David Letterman 1:10:01.760 --> 1:10:04.840 until the CDs in the store, because if someone decides 1:10:05.479 --> 1:10:08.120 they loved that song they heard last night and they 1:10:08.200 --> 1:10:11.120 go the next day to Tower Records and it isn't there, 1:10:11.360 --> 1:10:15.200 that it is out of mind. Um. I think that's 1:10:15.240 --> 1:10:18.600 probably changed in a streaming world where everything is so 1:10:18.760 --> 1:10:22.599 available at your fingertips. But I think it's a good 1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:28.639 thing to think about, for um as you approach those things. 1:10:28.720 --> 1:10:31.040 I mean, yes, I guess a slow burning being there longer, 1:10:31.200 --> 1:10:33.920 or maybe figuring out how you phase things. You know, 1:10:34.200 --> 1:10:36.800 what's phase one, what's phase two, what's phase three? Well, 1:10:36.840 --> 1:10:38.880 that's one thing, you know. I think they're revolving. But 1:10:39.000 --> 1:10:43.200 that's what the music business doesn't understand, certainly with streaming 1:10:43.280 --> 1:10:46.200 paying forever assing you're being listened to. If you could 1:10:46.360 --> 1:10:50.400 weave a magic wand over the media industry, what would 1:10:50.400 --> 1:10:55.920 you want to change? Oh my gosh, Bob, I may 1:10:56.000 --> 1:10:57.479 have to write you back on this because I want 1:10:57.520 --> 1:11:00.679 to be very thoughtful and I'm not I've ever thought 1:11:00.840 --> 1:11:03.560 of waving a magic wand even though it is a 1:11:03.680 --> 1:11:07.519 lovely thought, UM, I'm not going to whip out and pass. 1:11:07.560 --> 1:11:10.320 I will write you on that. Well. I guess let 1:11:10.400 --> 1:11:12.600 me look at it this way. What are some of 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:16.439 the flaws in the system that could be fixed? Fixed? 1:11:16.520 --> 1:11:18.960 This isn't necessarily a flaw, but I've been thinking about this. 1:11:19.720 --> 1:11:22.240 I had lunch with a friend who's at Netflix yesterday, 1:11:22.760 --> 1:11:25.640 um and and just kind of reading some of the 1:11:25.800 --> 1:11:30.320 people like you, um who you know cover the film industry, 1:11:30.360 --> 1:11:32.680 and all the studios are so mad because you know, 1:11:32.800 --> 1:11:34.680 Netflix is spending all this money and they're kind of 1:11:34.720 --> 1:11:36.320 trying to have their cake and eat it too, and 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:39.040 you know, should marriage story be up for an oscar? 1:11:39.800 --> 1:11:43.160 And you know, and Netflix is sitting there just laughing 1:11:43.200 --> 1:11:46.040 because they have how many millions of people, you know 1:11:46.360 --> 1:11:49.880 as subscribers. They're still growing at whatever rate and you 1:11:49.960 --> 1:11:52.240 know what times change. I mean, that's like the music 1:11:52.360 --> 1:11:56.160 industry in in two thousands saying this napster thing is 1:11:56.240 --> 1:12:01.679 really unfair. And I think again, even as the consumer 1:12:01.800 --> 1:12:04.960 going to the going to the movies as a hassle. Um, 1:12:06.320 --> 1:12:08.479 gotta drive, you gotta park a lot of times the 1:12:08.560 --> 1:12:12.120 movies I want to see aren't playing anywhere near me. Um, 1:12:12.600 --> 1:12:15.720 the food is terrible. You watch twenty minutes of commercials, 1:12:15.920 --> 1:12:19.639 people talk or text through it. I'm going, how few 1:12:19.800 --> 1:12:21.880 movies do I want to see? And I think I 1:12:21.920 --> 1:12:24.200 said once a time in Hollywood in the theater and 1:12:24.280 --> 1:12:25.760 I saw Little Women because I wanted to go with 1:12:25.840 --> 1:12:27.639 my daughter, and I figured that was about holiday movie 1:12:27.680 --> 1:12:30.320 and it got good reviews. Everything else it's like why 1:12:30.360 --> 1:12:32.679 not wait? Or why not watch what's on Netflix tonight? 1:12:32.960 --> 1:12:34.600 Or I mean, I think this is going to be 1:12:34.800 --> 1:12:37.120 very fascinating for people watching the next year. And it's 1:12:37.120 --> 1:12:39.960 slightly off topic. But you have Netflix that's so entrenched. 1:12:40.600 --> 1:12:43.320 You have Disney which anyone with a kid under chan 1:12:43.439 --> 1:12:46.679 as we spent seven bucks a month. You have Apple 1:12:46.840 --> 1:12:49.840 that can bundle this, you know, whether it's with music 1:12:50.400 --> 1:12:56.720 or um yeah or free. But in any case, you know, 1:12:56.800 --> 1:12:58.640 if they can use this as a lost leader or 1:12:58.840 --> 1:13:02.360 marketing thing. Um, you know for a long time, and 1:13:02.560 --> 1:13:07.000 so I'm fascinating. You know, the compast is taking a 1:13:07.040 --> 1:13:10.200 different approach obviously, you know, free, free, free, free and 1:13:10.680 --> 1:13:13.040 back to the Pluto TV. There's enough people that want free, 1:13:13.200 --> 1:13:15.680 and we've got you know, the office, and we'll have 1:13:15.840 --> 1:13:19.639 sports and late night TV. Um, so free. I sort 1:13:19.680 --> 1:13:25.679 of set aside because it's a different I never subscribed 1:13:25.720 --> 1:13:27.400 to Hulu, and I'm sure it's great for people who 1:13:27.479 --> 1:13:30.639 like those shows, but I think most people agree there's 1:13:30.680 --> 1:13:32.960 a window of how many of these services you're going 1:13:33.040 --> 1:13:36.160 to do. Again. I look at my former company and 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:39.080 I never worked for HBO, but I mean I was 1:13:39.120 --> 1:13:41.680 a huge Richard Pleppler fan, and I think that was 1:13:41.840 --> 1:13:45.360 one of the great brands companies, you know, of the 1:13:45.520 --> 1:13:49.679 last twenty years and what they've created. And I don't 1:13:49.680 --> 1:13:53.479 know about you. I'm really confused. Okay, Hbo HBO now 1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:59.080 HBO Go, HBO Max. I couldn't agree more. And you know, 1:13:59.280 --> 1:14:02.439 I still get tradition cable TV, so I get HBO. 1:14:02.520 --> 1:14:05.000 Does that mean I can get HBO Max? You know, 1:14:06.479 --> 1:14:08.519 as I say, I remember, I don't use my iPad 1:14:08.640 --> 1:14:10.640 that much, but I was out a ton of the 1:14:10.720 --> 1:14:14.759 iPad and you know, is it HBO Go or HBO Max? 1:14:15.040 --> 1:14:18.680 And they're exactly they were all the icons where you know, 1:14:18.760 --> 1:14:21.280 all the apps were there and I'm wasting time to 1:14:21.280 --> 1:14:23.160 figure out which one works, and then you have to 1:14:23.240 --> 1:14:25.960 go through jump through hoops under the best of circumstances 1:14:26.040 --> 1:14:28.720 just to get it to play. But okay, I'm not 1:14:28.800 --> 1:14:32.320 sure the point you're making. Well, just that the things change. 1:14:32.720 --> 1:14:35.760 And you know what we talked about the music was 1:14:35.880 --> 1:14:37.640 the canary in the coal mine. But you look at 1:14:37.640 --> 1:14:40.280 all these other forms of media and you have to 1:14:40.360 --> 1:14:43.600 adapt to change, whether it's a person like me or 1:14:43.800 --> 1:14:47.519 whether it's an industry, and you can't sort of look 1:14:47.600 --> 1:14:49.599 back and say the good old days. And I want Okay, 1:14:49.680 --> 1:14:51.920 let's let's drill down a little bit with this person 1:14:52.000 --> 1:14:56.439 from the film business yesterday. Could you wake them up? 1:14:56.600 --> 1:15:00.560 Or they just too far intoxix? So she's at the 1:15:00.600 --> 1:15:03.240 winning side. Okay, So if you were with the on 1:15:03.360 --> 1:15:05.439 the movie people, what would you tell them to do? 1:15:06.680 --> 1:15:11.839 Um Embrace change and mitigate your losses. There will be losses, 1:15:11.920 --> 1:15:16.240 whether it's losses forever or losses short term, but you're 1:15:16.240 --> 1:15:20.880 not going to turn back time. So, so you're a 1:15:21.040 --> 1:15:28.200 corporate publicity person, consultant, has that world grown or shrunk? Well, 1:15:29.479 --> 1:15:32.160 I'm not that deep in Silicon Valley, but my you know, 1:15:32.479 --> 1:15:35.040 sort of touching it. My feeling is that a lot 1:15:35.120 --> 1:15:40.360 of them when they start out use PR as a 1:15:40.479 --> 1:15:43.000 marketing tool as opposed to spending. It's not like they 1:15:43.040 --> 1:15:47.040 have big advertising campaigns or anything. Um. So I I 1:15:47.200 --> 1:15:50.720 think in that segment there also, I think a lot 1:15:50.800 --> 1:15:54.000 of people are concerned about overhead. You know, if you 1:15:54.200 --> 1:15:57.639 hire me, you're not paying for my health insurance, you're 1:15:57.680 --> 1:16:00.320 not paying for my office space, you know, or any 1:16:00.360 --> 1:16:04.439 of the other things. And so you get my brains, 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:09.679 my ideas, you know, my contacts. UM. Obviously not full 1:16:09.760 --> 1:16:13.200 time as a consultant unless it's agreed upon, you know, 1:16:13.280 --> 1:16:17.240 on a project basis, um. And maybe that's all you need. 1:16:17.400 --> 1:16:19.320 I mean, in a number of cases I've come in 1:16:19.400 --> 1:16:21.600 where they say, we love the person we have, but 1:16:21.680 --> 1:16:24.160 she's twenty five years old and we need someone to 1:16:24.320 --> 1:16:28.800 give him or her some guidance. Okay. So it's like 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:31.280 the rest of the world, we're moving to an outsourcing 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:38.959 gig economy. Yeah, I'm I mean, personally, I think I'm 1:16:39.000 --> 1:16:41.080 not sure that we're moving completely. And I think there 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:43.360 will always be a place for in the house people, 1:16:43.479 --> 1:16:46.599 certainly at least in big companies. UM. But I think 1:16:46.640 --> 1:16:51.720 this feels more Um, this feels easier, especially for startups 1:16:51.760 --> 1:16:54.759 and smaller companies. It's okay, you're rutting your own business. 1:16:55.400 --> 1:16:57.240 You're not. You make a deal with someone to be 1:16:57.280 --> 1:17:01.240 a consultant. It's not full time. How do you manage 1:17:01.320 --> 1:17:05.720 the compensation in time? You dedicate well. I before I 1:17:05.800 --> 1:17:09.040 take on a project or an account, I try to 1:17:09.160 --> 1:17:11.799 understand what are your goals in the best case scenario. 1:17:11.840 --> 1:17:14.120 If we're sitting here three months from now or six 1:17:14.160 --> 1:17:16.320 months from now, and if they tell me I want 1:17:16.360 --> 1:17:18.160 to be on the cover of Fortune, I want a 1:17:18.240 --> 1:17:21.559 ten minute segment on the Today's Show. And it's something 1:17:21.680 --> 1:17:24.400 that I think that's completely unrealistic. I think, you know, 1:17:24.680 --> 1:17:26.200 you're not going to be happy at the end of 1:17:26.280 --> 1:17:28.599 this period. I'm not going to be happy because I'll 1:17:28.640 --> 1:17:32.080 feel like I'm not delivering for you. Um. But if 1:17:32.120 --> 1:17:35.320 you can sort of start by saying what are the goals, 1:17:35.360 --> 1:17:38.320 and even if the person can articulate the goals, working 1:17:38.360 --> 1:17:40.760 with them to say, okay, so do we need to 1:17:41.200 --> 1:17:43.800 change your website, get your messaging in shape? Do we 1:17:43.880 --> 1:17:47.080 need to do any media training? Are there are conferences 1:17:47.160 --> 1:17:49.960 we should be at, you know, speaking opportunities, what media 1:17:50.000 --> 1:17:51.960 outlets are you're most interested in, where do you want 1:17:52.000 --> 1:17:55.360 to build your relationships? Come to an agreement there, and 1:17:55.439 --> 1:17:58.960 then the next part is both for me to figure 1:17:59.000 --> 1:18:01.599 out this. This look like a two day a week project. 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:04.120 I mean the equivalent of two days. Uh. You know 1:18:04.200 --> 1:18:05.920 if I wake up at six in the morning, which 1:18:05.960 --> 1:18:08.719 is you saw this morning, you know that that counts 1:18:08.760 --> 1:18:10.000 to it too, and you can you can kind of 1:18:10.080 --> 1:18:13.040 work from any word any time. Um, but I try 1:18:13.080 --> 1:18:15.479 to figure out it is it a two day project, 1:18:15.560 --> 1:18:17.880 three day project? You know? And agree. I don't like 1:18:18.000 --> 1:18:21.000 to do stuff really under six months because it just 1:18:21.120 --> 1:18:24.360 takes a while to get into the rhythm of understanding 1:18:24.479 --> 1:18:26.880 the people in the business and kind of coming up 1:18:26.920 --> 1:18:29.840 with ideas and a lot of it's sitting around and 1:18:29.960 --> 1:18:32.840 bouncing things off of each other. Okay, let's assume it's 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:35.760 two days a week. But the person calls your five 1:18:35.840 --> 1:18:39.679 days a week and you've already put in fifteen hours. Okay, well, okay, 1:18:39.760 --> 1:18:42.040 then I should have added. The other thing I said 1:18:42.080 --> 1:18:44.320 is when we come to an agreement about a price 1:18:44.439 --> 1:18:47.280 and two days a week, I said, let's re examine 1:18:47.280 --> 1:18:51.160 this after a month or two months, and if I 1:18:51.320 --> 1:18:53.640 feel like I'm pretty more into it. I'd like to 1:18:53.720 --> 1:18:56.400 come back and talk to you about renegotiating. In turn, 1:18:56.479 --> 1:18:59.200 if I feel like either you're in a slow period 1:18:59.560 --> 1:19:01.519 or there isn't a whole lot I can do until 1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:04.479 the summer, you know, you can come back. That should 1:19:04.520 --> 1:19:06.760 not be at etchton Stone. I mean, I'm pretty okay. 1:19:06.800 --> 1:19:10.000 So let's assume the company is realistic and they come 1:19:10.080 --> 1:19:12.040 to you and they say, well, in the next three months, 1:19:12.320 --> 1:19:14.120 even though a six month deal, I want to be 1:19:14.240 --> 1:19:15.840 on the cover of Fortune and I want to be 1:19:16.560 --> 1:19:20.719 on some news program. Can you deliver that? It depends 1:19:20.760 --> 1:19:25.320 on who the person is. Do you have those relationships? Yeah? 1:19:25.360 --> 1:19:29.840 Oh yeah, yeah, so you have those. So basically, any 1:19:30.000 --> 1:19:33.120 media outlet you have somebody there that you can pitch. 1:19:33.320 --> 1:19:35.320 I can't tell you any media outlet, and some of 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:39.880 the TV stuff, UM, I probably don't, but I know 1:19:40.040 --> 1:19:43.960 someone that can introduce me. Okay, what is the number 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:49.560 one for a business story? The number one TV outlet? Well, CNBC, 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:54.320 you know means a lot to people. Um, I'll tell you. 1:19:54.439 --> 1:19:57.240 And this is a little bit of people miss this. 1:19:57.960 --> 1:20:00.759 You know. One of the only successful parts of Yahoo 1:20:00.840 --> 1:20:05.559 is Yahoo Finance, and they get eighteen million uniques a month, 1:20:05.800 --> 1:20:07.720 and they, sir were the guy who runs it used 1:20:07.720 --> 1:20:13.080 to Runfortune and he's built this great, great business within Yahoo. 1:20:13.400 --> 1:20:16.160 And they now do like six hours of video a day. 1:20:16.280 --> 1:20:19.040 And I've had people on there, and because so many 1:20:19.120 --> 1:20:22.640 people still go to Yahoo, you know, for stock information 1:20:22.840 --> 1:20:25.680 or whatever, there's a lot of good feedback. I'm not 1:20:25.720 --> 1:20:29.680 saying that's necessarily number one, but it's, um, you know, 1:20:29.800 --> 1:20:32.000 it's also finding things like that. So if they have 1:20:32.120 --> 1:20:34.800 that much video a day, how hard is it to 1:20:35.240 --> 1:20:39.120 get something on? You know? Sometimes I've told yes, sometimes 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:41.680 I've told no. Okay, Well if you're told no, when 1:20:41.720 --> 1:20:46.400 you go back, ah, if I can make the story better, okay? 1:20:46.800 --> 1:20:51.680 And then print what is the best place? Well, a 1:20:51.800 --> 1:20:54.240 lot of people still care a lot if they have 1:20:54.360 --> 1:20:57.080 any international footprint. The ft is sort of the gold 1:20:57.200 --> 1:21:01.160 standard financial times and then um, you know, the New 1:21:01.240 --> 1:21:03.400 York Times and Wall Street journals still count a lot. 1:21:03.800 --> 1:21:06.120 I mean I always tell everyone I think the New 1:21:06.200 --> 1:21:09.320 York Post is super important because a lot of people 1:21:09.360 --> 1:21:12.920 at least in New York read it absolutely. Howard Stern 1:21:13.080 --> 1:21:15.920 is talking about I mean Dick Parsons. When he would 1:21:15.920 --> 1:21:17.840 get picked up, he'd always tell me at the Times, 1:21:17.920 --> 1:21:20.000 the journal in the post, because the post is where 1:21:20.000 --> 1:21:22.840 you get your finger on what people are talking about. Um. 1:21:23.040 --> 1:21:25.200 And they have a good business section, again held to 1:21:25.240 --> 1:21:28.360 a different standard and following somewhat different stories. But they're 1:21:28.439 --> 1:21:31.960 smart people and good reporters. So what is the future 1:21:32.000 --> 1:21:36.280 of print? I think the New York Time was sick 1:21:36.360 --> 1:21:38.240 with our favorite, The New York Times. I think they've 1:21:38.320 --> 1:21:42.040 shown that they've figured out a reasonable digital model. UM. 1:21:42.080 --> 1:21:44.160 I mean, I don't know all the numbers, but they're growing, 1:21:44.280 --> 1:21:46.559 both in terms of members and in terms of revenue. 1:21:47.320 --> 1:21:50.880 I think the big will get bigger and the small, 1:21:51.120 --> 1:21:54.000 sadly will probably fade it with Well, let's put it 1:21:54.080 --> 1:21:57.960 this way. I'm voracious news consumer. I get the physical 1:21:58.080 --> 1:22:01.880 newspapers too, so and I pour over them. But I'm 1:22:02.000 --> 1:22:06.439 checking the apps innumerable times a day, and you cannot 1:22:06.560 --> 1:22:09.439 get into the depth on the app, and you miss 1:22:09.520 --> 1:22:11.519 things on the app that you will see exactly what 1:22:11.600 --> 1:22:13.360 I tell people, You know, if they look at me 1:22:13.479 --> 1:22:15.880 like I'm, you know, a ludic for still getting the 1:22:16.720 --> 1:22:19.280 print issues, I say, there's a sense of serendipity of 1:22:19.360 --> 1:22:22.680 things that I don't even know that I'm if I'm 1:22:22.800 --> 1:22:25.559 turning every page and I do. I read those three 1:22:25.600 --> 1:22:29.120 papers every day and the Financial Times on the weekend. Um, 1:22:30.240 --> 1:22:32.479 And I think that, you know, I mean sometimes I 1:22:32.520 --> 1:22:35.280 look at different magazines. Obviously, sometimes I dive in if 1:22:35.280 --> 1:22:39.040 I see something online that interests me. Um. But I 1:22:39.120 --> 1:22:41.400 think you can kind of cover a lot of important 1:22:41.439 --> 1:22:43.840 stuff if you deal with those Well, I guess I'm 1:22:43.920 --> 1:22:48.080 going the other way when print goes away. If you 1:22:48.160 --> 1:22:51.439 get a story on the app and it's buried, will 1:22:51.479 --> 1:22:54.360 anybody see? I mean, they're big stories, like I don't think. 1:22:54.439 --> 1:22:58.559 I guess what I'm saying is in Well, the New 1:22:58.640 --> 1:23:01.160 York Times have a print, should know, but maybe they 1:23:01.200 --> 1:23:05.479 will figure out a different way presenting it so that 1:23:05.920 --> 1:23:08.600 for people like us, you get more of the you know, 1:23:08.720 --> 1:23:13.639 serendipitous discovery. Um, I don't. I think the New York 1:23:13.680 --> 1:23:16.840 Times has even said it's print is not going away 1:23:16.880 --> 1:23:19.639 for us, you know, in the near term. What about 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:24.960 Apple News Plus? Um? Apple News Plus. I love as 1:23:24.960 --> 1:23:27.800 a consumer because I'm not sure I want to pay 1:23:27.800 --> 1:23:31.120 a hundred dollars for the Hollywood Reporter or for Business Week. 1:23:31.880 --> 1:23:34.400 But I like being and when I was, you know, 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:36.400 I would find they were just stacking up and then 1:23:36.439 --> 1:23:39.240 I go. There's too much work to go through this, um, 1:23:39.800 --> 1:23:41.800 but I love having the access to it. Either if 1:23:41.800 --> 1:23:45.160 there's a certain story I'm following, or you can enter 1:23:45.360 --> 1:23:47.840 something you know you want to go back and read 1:23:47.920 --> 1:23:51.120 what they said about you know, Rupert Murdoch. Here, Um, 1:23:51.600 --> 1:23:53.320 just type it in. You know, You've got the last 1:23:53.320 --> 1:23:55.759 seven years of archives, which I think is a great gift. 1:23:56.240 --> 1:23:59.599 The question I think for Apple News is how did 1:23:59.680 --> 1:24:05.280 the providers feel and are they getting um compensated to 1:24:05.400 --> 1:24:08.400 the degree that they feel. The one thing for sure 1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:12.880 is h subscriptions are amazingly low and they were all frontloaded. Uh, 1:24:13.200 --> 1:24:17.479 but I'm interested. Do you check Apple News Plus on 1:24:17.560 --> 1:24:22.960 any specific device? Usually my iPad? Yeah, because I say, 1:24:23.080 --> 1:24:25.840 I'm on my phone a lot and News Plus doesn't 1:24:25.880 --> 1:24:28.280 work that much. Now. I don't like anything I have 1:24:28.400 --> 1:24:30.599 to read. I don't I don't like on my phone. UM, 1:24:30.920 --> 1:24:33.000 I like the bigger screen. So what's the future for 1:24:33.080 --> 1:24:38.439 you personally, the future of my media consumption or media 1:24:38.520 --> 1:24:43.720 career career? Uh, I'm not sure I ever plotted out 1:24:43.800 --> 1:24:46.479 my future, and I'm not sure that I am now. 1:24:46.680 --> 1:24:49.400 I I feel very lucky that I had the experiences 1:24:49.439 --> 1:24:53.640 and met the people that I have and UM, you know, 1:24:53.680 --> 1:24:55.360 I told you I've got a twenty four year old 1:24:55.400 --> 1:24:58.000 and twenty two year old, So I feel you know, 1:24:58.360 --> 1:25:00.240 not only do I love them, but I got two 1:25:00.280 --> 1:25:04.280 great kids out of two great colleges, both working. Um. 1:25:05.800 --> 1:25:08.479 I like the flexibility too, of traveling. I mean, this summer, 1:25:08.560 --> 1:25:10.240 my daughter and I wanted to go to Croatia. We 1:25:10.280 --> 1:25:13.120 went to Croatia. You know, my son turned Next year 1:25:13.120 --> 1:25:14.719 he wants to go to Japan. We'll go to Japan. 1:25:14.800 --> 1:25:17.240 I mean that to me is a gift because I 1:25:17.320 --> 1:25:19.200 didn't have that flexibility for a long time. I did 1:25:19.240 --> 1:25:21.559 a lot of traveling, both for work and for fun, 1:25:21.960 --> 1:25:24.519 but it wasn't just like Okay, let's go now and 1:25:24.600 --> 1:25:28.120 I can. Okay, you have a client, you go to Croatia, 1:25:28.439 --> 1:25:33.160 what do you tell him, Um, I'm going to be gone. 1:25:33.200 --> 1:25:35.519 I'll tell okay, email once a day, once a day, 1:25:36.439 --> 1:25:42.679 maybe more. Okay, So you feel fulfilled very much? So okay, 1:25:42.760 --> 1:25:44.479 don this has been great, Thanks so much for talking 1:25:44.520 --> 1:25:48.080 about Okay, until next time. This is Bob left Sex