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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. I am happy

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Speaker 1: to be back. So I wanted to have a conversation

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Speaker 1: today around a topic that I deal with a lot. Annie.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that you do. I'm sure a lot of

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Speaker 1: y'all out there can relate, and that is Hey, transparency, Annie,

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Speaker 1: is this an issue that you can relate to? I

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Speaker 1: can um. I think I have lived in a weird

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Speaker 1: bubble though, where I've we talked about it a lot

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Speaker 1: in my family. I've talked about it a lot among

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Speaker 1: my friends, but I think that in my it's only

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Speaker 1: my direct social group. But outside of that, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: something I've definitely struggled with. And when I when I

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Speaker 1: first started interviewing for jobs, I would just go in

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Speaker 1: and have no real idea what a good number to ask,

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Speaker 1: Like I I didn't know. Yeah, it's hard. I think

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Speaker 1: you hit on something that I want to definitely dig

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Speaker 1: deeper into in this episode, Which is one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why it's hard is that we don't talk about it.

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Speaker 1: We're weird about money. Conversations about money are considered rude

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Speaker 1: or taboo or just awkward as hell. And so we're

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Speaker 1: not having them. And thus, in situations where it is

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Speaker 1: in our best interest to have clear conversations about money,

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Speaker 1: particularly money that you want or feel you deserve, that

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Speaker 1: can be tricky because of this kind of weirdness around money,

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Speaker 1: both in you know, professional settings, but also friendships like

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Speaker 1: I know how my best friend voted, I know a

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Speaker 1: really awkward sexual thing that happened with my best friend,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know how much money she makes. Right,

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Speaker 1: So we were happy to be transparent about plenty of things,

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Speaker 1: money is not one of them. And I recently read

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Speaker 1: this article on medium by Jackie Lou about pay disparity,

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Speaker 1: and this article literally shocked me. Why because she opens

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Speaker 1: by disclosing her own pay. She starts, I'm a software

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Speaker 1: engineer with three years of experience working at Square, a

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Speaker 1: public tech company in San Francisco. I make a hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty thousand plus forty seven thousand, five hundred stock

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Speaker 1: for a total of one hundred and seventy seven thousand,

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Speaker 1: five hundred a year. She goes on to talk about

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Speaker 1: how she didn't negotiate her base salary, but she did

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Speaker 1: negotiate her four year initial stock grant from a hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand to a hundred and ninety thousand and

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Speaker 1: sort of how long she's been working at this job.

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Speaker 1: And when I first read this opening, I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this woman is you know, we know

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Speaker 1: all of her business. Why is she putting this out there?

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Speaker 1: And she does it for a really, really good reason,

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Speaker 1: she says, writing all of that terrifies me. Strangers and

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Speaker 1: peers may see what I earned and think I'm vastly overpaid,

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Speaker 1: or they may decide I'm underpaid. Inevitably, companies that wish

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Speaker 1: to hire me in the future will see my previous

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Speaker 1: salary and either anchor are my future pay at that level,

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Speaker 1: limiting me to pay increases when switching jobs, or out

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Speaker 1: of interviewing me altogether, out of fear that I will

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Speaker 1: be too expensive for them. So why share these numbers?

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Speaker 1: Because we need to talk more about how much we

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Speaker 1: get paid. Their compensation starts with greater transparency, And she

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Speaker 1: has one right of people who became aware of a

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Speaker 1: pay disparity only found out about it after talking to

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Speaker 1: a coworker about their compensation, which really is no surprise

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Speaker 1: because how else would you find out, Oh, I am

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Speaker 1: being paid less than this person who I un has

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Speaker 1: qualified or more qualified than, or oh I'm making you know,

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Speaker 1: how do you even know anything about what you're being

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Speaker 1: paid and how it ranks and how you feel about

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Speaker 1: it if you don't have these conversations. Yeah, And like

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Speaker 1: you were saying, Bridget for a long time, at least

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Speaker 1: here in the United States, talking about it has sort

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Speaker 1: of been taboo. It's something you avoid. It's up there

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Speaker 1: with politics and religion. It's a question that you do

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Speaker 1: not ask. And I do think that's changing. I remember

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Speaker 1: we sently um that on Twitter. It was kind of

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Speaker 1: a I don't know if it's trending, but people are saying,

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Speaker 1: if you want to know how much I make, just

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Speaker 1: dm me um. And that's part of something that you've

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Speaker 1: probably heard of pay transparency, and it's pretty much what

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Speaker 1: it sounds like. You would know how much other folks

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Speaker 1: like you are making for the exact same work, and

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Speaker 1: then you could negotiate accordingly if that number was not

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Speaker 1: the same as yours. Has been touted as a way

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Speaker 1: to achieve equal pay and to rectify the gender and

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Speaker 1: racial wage gaps. So if you listen to this podcast,

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Speaker 1: you probably already know that the gender pay gap is

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Speaker 1: some bull crap, but let's look at some hard numbers.

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Speaker 1: In April seventeen, National Partnership for Women and Family report

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Speaker 1: shows that black women are paid sixty three cents for

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Speaker 1: every dollar to non Hispanic white men on average, and

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Speaker 1: Latin has received fifty cents for every dollar a non

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Speaker 1: Hispanic white male earns, the report found, which is pretty crummy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely crummy. So all of the data is super

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Speaker 1: super clear that one important way of curbing this gender

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Speaker 1: pay gap is just people being able to talk about

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Speaker 1: what they make. In a paper published by the I

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Speaker 1: R l e. S Journal of Industrial Relations, Marlene Kim

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Speaker 1: investigated the effects of state pay secrecy laws. Kim, who

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Speaker 1: was a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts, Boston,

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Speaker 1: compared the earnings in six states that had banned pay

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Speaker 1: secrecy before twelve to earnings in state that had not.

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Speaker 1: Using the regression method to construct a comparison that controls

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Speaker 1: for other factors like workers demographics and regional wage differences,

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Speaker 1: Kim found that women's earnings are three percent higher in

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Speaker 1: states that have outlawed pay secrecy. She also found that

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Speaker 1: states that have such policies the gender wage gap is

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Speaker 1: reduced as much as twelve to fift for workers with

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Speaker 1: a college degree and by six to eight percent for

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Speaker 1: workers without. Now, this finding really makes it clear that

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Speaker 1: states that you can talk about your pay disparity, those

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Speaker 1: are the states where there could actually be some ground

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Speaker 1: covered for making up for these wage gaps. And one

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Speaker 1: of the arguments that you'll often here come up against

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Speaker 1: pay transparency is that essentially it'll be demoralizing. You incentivize

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Speaker 1: performance with pay, and companies want to pay their top

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Speaker 1: performers with more money. But studies have shown way, way, wait,

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Speaker 1: way more people think of themselves as top performers than

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Speaker 1: management does, which I just makes sense. To combat those

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Speaker 1: companies could make sure that they put in place objective

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Speaker 1: measures of success and communicate them clearly. This also is

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Speaker 1: useful when it comes to complaints from employees. If you

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Speaker 1: have an objective criterion, it's easier to explain differences in compensation.

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Speaker 1: It also helps employees set achievable goals. And another thing

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Speaker 1: about pay transparency is that it would do away with

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Speaker 1: a lot of negotiating around salary, which, as we've talked

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Speaker 1: about before on the show, is a tight rope that

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Speaker 1: women have to walk between undervaluing themselves or aggressively negotiating

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Speaker 1: and getting penalized for it. It also helps with productivity.

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Speaker 1: Employees spend less time wondering if they're getting paid enough

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Speaker 1: and report less feelings of dissatisfaction. That has definitely, definitely

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Speaker 1: been my experience. I think that as women, as people

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Speaker 1: of color, as people who are marginalized, we sort of

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Speaker 1: have to carry this really unfair burden of not knowing

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Speaker 1: how to necessarily walk that tight rope that you were

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Speaker 1: describing Annie that you can be if you don't, if

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Speaker 1: you don't negotiate aggressively, you can really undercut yourself and

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Speaker 1: you can be making more than you than you you

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Speaker 1: know than you are. But if you negotiate too aggressively,

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Speaker 1: like you're just expected to internally understand that how to

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Speaker 1: walk that tight rope um. I also think that one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why this just doesn't make any sense

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Speaker 1: to me is that it privileges people who are perceived

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Speaker 1: to be good at negotiation. We already know that there

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Speaker 1: are a whole host of historical and cultural and societal

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Speaker 1: factors that make it so that someone who looks like

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Speaker 1: me might historically not feel comfortable being an aggressive negotiator.

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Speaker 1: But somebody who looks like, I don't know, Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: might have an easier time, right if you're a man,

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Speaker 1: if you're white, the perception is, oh, this is an

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Speaker 1: aggressive go get a good for him. He's you know,

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Speaker 1: he knows is worth all of that, while we had

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Speaker 1: to walk into a negotiating table with all of this

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Speaker 1: extra societal baggage that frankly we didn't ask for, that

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Speaker 1: we didn't you know, want to be saddled with. But

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Speaker 1: yet we still have to figure out how to negotiate

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Speaker 1: this type rope while caring. And it's really unfair, it

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Speaker 1: absolutely is. And with the whole thing around Rit Kavanaugh

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Speaker 1: and all of this research that is coming out and

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Speaker 1: all of this literature that's coming out about anger and

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Speaker 1: how it's seen as a good thing in men and

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Speaker 1: a bad thing in women, I was reading an article

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Speaker 1: that said, in a negotiation setting, a man that displays

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Speaker 1: anger is more likely to get what he's asking for,

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Speaker 1: or as a woman that does is more likely to

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Speaker 1: be penalized and not get what she's asking for. Which, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just frustrating because how are we supposed to We

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Speaker 1: can't win, I guess yeah, And I don't think that

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Speaker 1: when you walk into you know, a negotiating situations, particularly

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Speaker 1: for your pay, your salary, that it should really come

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Speaker 1: down to a how go of a negotiator you are

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Speaker 1: and be all of those societal things that you were

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Speaker 1: just talking about, Like it shouldn't like why should our

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Speaker 1: pay be tethered to all of this cultural nonsense that

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Speaker 1: we just have to, you know, slog through every day.

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Speaker 1: It's a reality, but it's really really unfair, and I

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Speaker 1: think women and other marginalized folks are are really having

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Speaker 1: to slog through this and it's just exhausting and a pain.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, I mean it keeps you from

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Speaker 1: focusing on your work, right, Like, if you are a

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Speaker 1: photographer and you know that an time you negotiate a job,

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Speaker 1: you are going to have to take a stroll through

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Speaker 1: coded gender and racial bullshit lane just to get what

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Speaker 1: you feel you you owe, how do you focus on

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Speaker 1: being a good photographer? It really is demoralizing and it

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Speaker 1: really can keep us from focusing on what we do best,

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Speaker 1: which is you know your product, what you do and

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Speaker 1: having to mind we all have to mire through this,

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Speaker 1: and I think negotiation conversations are uncomfortable for a lot

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Speaker 1: of us, for everybody. Although previous Sminty co host Emily

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Speaker 1: once told me that she loved negotiation. It was like

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Speaker 1: her favorite thing and like shout out to her. So

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Speaker 1: there are people out there who live for this, and

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Speaker 1: kudos to them. I am not one of them. But

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it is a distraction, and it is

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Speaker 1: it can be a bit demoralizing to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is constantly something I'm going to have to constantly

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Speaker 1: bump up against and constantly be wondering, well, is this

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Speaker 1: person paid more as a person paid less? Like how

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Speaker 1: do I stack up? And I paid less because I'm

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Speaker 1: not as good? Like? Am I paid more? Because that's

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Speaker 1: the boss's cousin and you know he wants to make

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Speaker 1: them happy? Like all of those conversations are swirling in

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Speaker 1: your head while you're just trying to do your job,

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Speaker 1: and it's really it's it's can just really be preventative

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Speaker 1: in you know, doing your best work. I know some

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Speaker 1: of you are probably thinking, isn't it illegal for companies

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Speaker 1: to do this? Don't companies have to allow workers to

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Speaker 1: disclose their pay if that's what they want. Technically, that

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Speaker 1: is true pay secrecy is considered illegal under section seven

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Speaker 1: of the federal National Labor Relations Act, which protects non

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Speaker 1: supervisory employees from employee retaliation if they discussed their wages

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Speaker 1: with colleagues. However, as we know, having a law on

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Speaker 1: the books does not always mean that that is what's happening.

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Speaker 1: Survey found that six of private sector workers and of

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Speaker 1: public sector workers were either formally or informally prohibited by

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Speaker 1: their employers from discussing their pay with their coworkers. Um.

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Speaker 1: I've definitely experienced this where you know, the men knows

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Speaker 1: they can't formally reprimand someone for doing this, but they

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Speaker 1: find ways of making it clear just how they feel

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. Yeah, I've been in situations where it

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Speaker 1: was clearly discouraged. Um, which it shouldn't be. It's it's

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Speaker 1: strange to me now doing the research on this episode

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Speaker 1: and talking about it. I knew that was the case,

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Speaker 1: but thinking about it, it's strange. It's almost like the

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Speaker 1: mafia or something like, you can't talk about your pay.

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Speaker 1: It is, and this study makes a really good point

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Speaker 1: that without feeling free to inquire about just how much

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Speaker 1: comparable colleagues are earning, many women might not even know

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Speaker 1: they are making less than their male counterparts and thus

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Speaker 1: are much more unlikely to raise complaints or ask for

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Speaker 1: better salaries. I've dealt with that specifically. I'll never forget

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Speaker 1: one of my first jobs I was working alongside. I

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Speaker 1: was hired alongside a male counterpart and would be doing

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Speaker 1: very similar jobs. We had gone on through the exact

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Speaker 1: same training program, and we had just been off boardered

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Speaker 1: off the exact same campaign, or we held the exact

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Speaker 1: same positions, and he his starting offer was five thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars more than me. And I only knew this because

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Speaker 1: he told me, and so had he not told me,

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Speaker 1: I would never I would never have thought to ask

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Speaker 1: for more. At the time, I had just finished teaching

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Speaker 1: at Howard And if you if you work in an

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Speaker 1: academic setting, a lot of you might know that your

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Speaker 1: pay is really sort of tethered to your education background.

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Speaker 1: And so I didn't have a PhD. So I was

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Speaker 1: always going to be making X amount of money. It

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Speaker 1: was dollars a year. There was just no like unless

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Speaker 1: I went back to school and got a different degree,

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Speaker 1: that was never going to change. And coming out of

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Speaker 1: that job where negotiation just wasn't even something that felt

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Speaker 1: like you could do because it was very clearly tethered

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Speaker 1: to your educational background. My first job after that was

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Speaker 1: this job, and so I sort of didn't really know

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Speaker 1: that that that like negotiation was really a thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I got offered this job, I got my starting

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Speaker 1: offer was fifty dollars a year, which for me, like

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Speaker 1: that was I thought I was gonna be rich, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, that's so much money. And then

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Speaker 1: when I found out that my male colleague was offered sixty,

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Speaker 1: part of me was thinking I would never even occurred

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Speaker 1: to ask for sixty At the time, you know, I

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Speaker 1: was in my twenties. That seemed like an unfathomable amount

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Speaker 1: of money, and I just was never gonna even occurred

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Speaker 1: to me to even start an offer at sixty. And

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Speaker 1: that was that was what he of. That was what

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Speaker 1: his first offer was. And so, needless to say, him

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Speaker 1: cluing me into that information turned out to be this

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Speaker 1: like radical and transformative act that really reverberated through a

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Speaker 1: lot of my career. Yeah, and you you've touched on

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Speaker 1: something that I've experienced, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people especially were an experience, but I I think that

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Speaker 1: involved in all of this is kind of imposter syndrome, right,

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Speaker 1: like feeling like you you're you're not valuing yourself as

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Speaker 1: much as you should be because there's something a about you,

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Speaker 1: or at least in mine, keys that I always felt like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm lucky to have a job at all, and I

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Speaker 1: would get I don't know why, but for a long

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Speaker 1: time I would compare my salary to how much my

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Speaker 1: dad was making, because, like I said, I knew how

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Speaker 1: much my dad was making. And I don't know why,

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Speaker 1: because he was a teacher. I'm in a completely different

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Speaker 1: profession than him. But to me, like I didn't think

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Speaker 1: I should ever be making near as much as he was,

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Speaker 1: which is bizarre. And I've had to kind of confront

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Speaker 1: why I thought that, and, um, separate myself from that.

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Speaker 1: Why do you Why do you think you thought that?

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Speaker 1: I think I thought that because in my head, Oh,

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Speaker 1: there's so much tied up into it. I think I

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Speaker 1: thought he was a much more qualified professional person. He

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Speaker 1: was a lawyer, and he'd gone to school for twelve years, um,

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Speaker 1: and that my job was not as valuable as his job.

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Speaker 1: And also I think I just assume, I mean, he

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Speaker 1: was my dad, he was an adult like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I still struggle with feeling like I'm a I'm a

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Speaker 1: child stumbling through this world masquerading as an adult. UM.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot at play there, and I have

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Speaker 1: had to just try to move on from that mindset. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can definitely identify with that. UM. One thing that

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Speaker 1: has been helpful for me, I don't know if it

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Speaker 1: will be helpful for you is seeing it as a math.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that you felt like your dad was solidly

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Speaker 1: an adult and that you felt like a child seeing

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Speaker 1: it in terms of experience not age, because I used

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Speaker 1: to say something that was I think is a little

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Speaker 1: bit not helpful. It's like, oh, someone I was making

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Speaker 1: the same as me, but she's twenty and I'm thirty,

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Speaker 1: and that's not the right way to think about it.

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Speaker 1: Thinking about it in terms of life, well, I have

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Speaker 1: been doing this for X more years than them, and

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Speaker 1: I have X more degrees and x more training, so

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Speaker 1: that you so it's not tethered to this idea of

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Speaker 1: what it is to be an adult employee versus someone

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Speaker 1: who is, you know, trying to be an adult or

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Speaker 1: masquerading as an adult but secretly feels like a kid.

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Speaker 1: Or something. I think that's great advice. UM. I know

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Speaker 1: that that's something that UM companies, not just in the US,

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Speaker 1: but UM France is like one of the first examples

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Speaker 1: I think of. But this whole idea of seniority and

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Speaker 1: UM just tying salary to like how long you've been

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Speaker 1: working at a company UM, and I think that is

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Speaker 1: changing too. Not that that doesn't need to be like

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Speaker 1: eradicated completely, but I don't think that it should be

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Speaker 1: the entire equation. I completely agree. I completely agree, UM.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to think about it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm happy to see there's there's movement in some

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Speaker 1: countries around institutionalizing these things, so it's not something that

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Speaker 1: you have to that you Annie has to sort out internally,

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Speaker 1: but that it's something that is more explicitly woven into

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Speaker 1: the culture of where you work. Yeah, I'm happy to

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Speaker 1: see that too, UM. And this whole conversation, it's actually

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Speaker 1: a little it's worse for women who work in creative

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Speaker 1: fields like like you and I bridget. Yes, it is worse,

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Speaker 1: and we'll dive more into that after this quick break

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Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you, sponsor. So Annie and I

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Speaker 1: are I consider I mean, I consider myself a creative professional.

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Speaker 1: Is that how you would describe yourself? Annie? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's funny because I totally stumbled into this

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Speaker 1: whole field. But yes, I would describe myself as that.

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Speaker 1: So you might not be super surprised to learn this. Then,

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Speaker 1: while the national average gender wage gap hovers around, a

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Speaker 1: study by honey Book found that women in the creative

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Speaker 1: economy are making less and their male counterparts for the

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Speaker 1: exact same jobs. Breaking this down by annual income, the

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Speaker 1: researchers found that women aren't approximately seven hundred dollars while

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Speaker 1: men take in about forty five th four hundred dollars.

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Speaker 1: Does this? Does this shock you? Or you like? That

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Speaker 1: sounds about right? It's sad, but I'm almost surprised. It's

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Speaker 1: not more that the difference isn't bigger. So no, I

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Speaker 1: am not shocked. Yeah, it's it's doing the research for

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Speaker 1: this episode really just put some numbers and some math

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Speaker 1: behind the things I have felt in my bones for

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Speaker 1: very long, and it's just confirmed those You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not that feeling is not coming from nowhere, it's it's

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Speaker 1: actually grounded by the math. And I think something that

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Speaker 1: you said earlier really stuck with me. The idea that

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Speaker 1: as a creative person or as a creative professional, or

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Speaker 1: they're they're calling it creative entrepreneur, which I had not

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Speaker 1: heard that term before, but as folks who make money

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Speaker 1: in in a in a creative pursuit, it is this

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Speaker 1: idea that we should be lucky to be paid at all.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned that earlier, that you that you felt

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Speaker 1: lucky to have a paying job, kind of regardless of

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Speaker 1: how much you were being paid. And I think that

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Speaker 1: working in the arts, you know, if you're a painter

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Speaker 1: or a photographer, or an event planner or you know,

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Speaker 1: a podcaster, I think there is this undercurrent that what

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Speaker 1: you do is not actual labor, it does not take

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Speaker 1: actual skill. People should feel free to request that you

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Speaker 1: do that for little or no pay, and that you

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Speaker 1: should be happy if you get If you get a

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Speaker 1: check for doing it, you should just shut up and

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Speaker 1: be happy. Yeah. I have experienced so much of that.

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget once in uh. As I've mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: I do some acting, and um this the industry is

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Speaker 1: pretty notorious for not paying at at like a when

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Speaker 1: you're starting out. Um to the point I'm surprised when

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Speaker 1: there's pay involved, and it's generally you'll get paid in

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Speaker 1: real footage which you'll probably never see. That's just a

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Speaker 1: show that you've acted in something. So you're literally acting

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Speaker 1: in something to show that you can act. Um. And

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Speaker 1: this one guy told me once you have better chances

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Speaker 1: of winning a billion dollar jackpot in the lottery than

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Speaker 1: making being successful as an actor, like making a paycheck

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Speaker 1: that could like you could live off of. And I

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Speaker 1: catch myself thinking that all the time and it's just bizarre. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, that idea that you're lucky to be paid,

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Speaker 1: that you're there's four thousand people in line behind you

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Speaker 1: willing to do it if you're not going to do it.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, I mean that is there's so much to

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Speaker 1: unpack there. Um. That feeling I think as as creative professionals,

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Speaker 1: especially that if you don't like this, there are a

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Speaker 1: hundred other people out there that would kill for the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to do this for free. They would pay us

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Speaker 1: to do it. That's that and I think that's not incorrect,

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Speaker 1: but that kind of twisted, like like idea that if

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Speaker 1: you're not happy, there's the door, there's we have we

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Speaker 1: have ten people waiting to replace you. I think that

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Speaker 1: is so damaging, and I think that it's a it's cyclical,

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Speaker 1: like that's what keeps us working for free, some of us,

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Speaker 1: you know, there is there are the there's this huge

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Speaker 1: conversation right now happening in writers communities about whether or

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Speaker 1: not a writer should work for free, and I certainly

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Speaker 1: don't wanna. I think it's I think it's more complicated.

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Speaker 1: I actually think that in the writing field it's not

402
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Speaker 1: always black and white, but that one of the arguments

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Speaker 1: I've seen a lot is when you accept free work

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Speaker 1: for writing, you're making it easier for the industry to

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Speaker 1: undervalue all of us. And I think whether or not

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Speaker 1: logistically it works out so that you have to sometimes

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Speaker 1: take a free, you know, gig or not, I think

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Speaker 1: that's true that when you feel like you have to

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Speaker 1: accept a free gig, it makes it easier for someone

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Speaker 1: else to say, oh, well, I didn't pay her for

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Speaker 1: that piece of that piece of writing, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: pay the next person. And there's a market for people

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Speaker 1: willing to do it for free. And I think it

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Speaker 1: does kind of when when you work in these industries,

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Speaker 1: it does kind of warp them. I want to back

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Speaker 1: up really quickly and could point out some of the

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Speaker 1: specific industries where the gender pay gap is worse by far.

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Speaker 1: Female dujs and musicians fired the worst, earning half of

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Speaker 1: their male counterparts as wages. Photographers are in sixty cents

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Speaker 1: to every male dollar, event planners bringing about of a

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Speaker 1: man's income, and cinematographers fared the best, dropping the gap

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Speaker 1: to twelve cents. So, you know, having known a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who work in these industries, DJs, photographers, event planners,

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Speaker 1: I think these are industries where people will just expect,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I have to pay for this, Like

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Speaker 1: you're just taking pictures, you're clicking a button. I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have to pay you for what I could do myself,

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Speaker 1: you know, somebody would do that for free. And I

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Speaker 1: really do think that perception is what keeps these particular

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Speaker 1: creative economies from being more fair. Yeah, I agree, And

431
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: recently we've had some pretty public examples of this, like

432
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, um, after the Sony Hack, we found out

433
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: that Seth Rogan was making ten million dollars more than

434
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: co star Charlie Thearron, or in the case of the movie,

435
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: all the money in the world when it was revealed

436
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: that Mark Wahlberg was paid ten times the amount of

437
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: his co star, who had the same amount of screen time,

438
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: Michelle Williams. Um for salary for angling that happened around

439
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 1: the reshoots. It's actually kind of complicated, but the difference

440
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: was one point five million to eighty dollars per d

441
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: M for food and water. So Michelle Williams was getting

442
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: eighty dollars a day per d M like to pay

443
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: for food and water. Um, And that came out to

444
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: be less than a thousand dollars total, which is ridiculous. Yeah,

445
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 1: that is so ridiculous. And these are big stars, right,

446
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: Charlie's Throne, you know, Michelle Williams, these are these are

447
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: A listers, and I just think, you know, it's important

448
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: to point out, you know, it's it's ridiculous that someone

449
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: as famous as Charlie's Throne or Michelle Williams would have

450
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: to deal with this, but that if they're dealing with

451
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: this as women who are creatives, it's imagine how you know,

452
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: your favorite YouTuber, your favorite you know essayist, your favorite podcaster,

453
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: Imagine what it's like for them if these super rich,

454
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: mega famous A listers are dealing with this bullshit in

455
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: this in the such ridiculous ways. You know, the people

456
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: who are making the content that you love to consume

457
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: a lot of times are dealing with it in worse ways.

458
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: And I just think we need to talk about it,

459
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: like we need to talk about the fact that, you know,

460
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: you might think that someone is living one kind of

461
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: life style because you see them on YouTube, becus them

462
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: on TV, whatever, but that is often very much not

463
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah, I used to work almost exclusively in YouTube,

464
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: and I was fortunate in the way I was being

465
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: paid to do other things and it was part of

466
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: my like salaried work, so I was getting paid. But

467
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: I would get this spreadsheet from YouTube every month, and

468
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: it was this massive spreadsheet and all everything was so

469
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: small and difficult to read. But then like you scroll, school, school, scroll, scroll,

470
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: and you get to the bottom line, and for like

471
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of yews, I would make sixty nine

472
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: cents or something, I mean, nothing, nothing, What am I

473
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: gonna do with sixty nine cents? And so so why

474
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 1: is it's it's that's almost a sort of like golden

475
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: handcuffs thing where you're thinking, well, you know, I get

476
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: to have a platform I get to talk to people,

477
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: I get to make videos, and I get that is fulfilling,

478
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: but financially it's not even worth your time. Like at

479
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: a certain point, it's it's that that six cents, Like

480
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do with that? I don't know.

481
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: A part of me was like, please don't even send

482
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: me that. I know exactly. I've worked job where it's

483
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 1: like it's not even worth it. Two invoice, like this

484
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: is I'm being paid so little. I'm a currently a freelancer,

485
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: so I worked for myself. I pay taxes on this,

486
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: so like at a certain point, I'm paying you for

487
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: the privilege of working for you. So it's it's just

488
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: this really weird situation where the creators sometimes are the

489
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: ones who are who end up in an inadvertent way,

490
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: even though they're being paid, kind of working for free anyway. Yeah, yeah,

491
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: it's it's it's strange. Um, we used to call it

492
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: the wild West because you couldn't figure out how to

493
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: make money on the internet anyway. No, like no one could.

494
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: But eventually something's got to give. We've been in the

495
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: wild West for a long time now. Yeah, and I

496
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: think you see it with how the media endscape is

497
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: shifting and changing. I mean, people lose paying work every day.

498
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: Like I think the I think the economy is really

499
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: switching toward freelance, project based, gig based work for creatives,

500
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: which you know has its own weird pitfalls. But I

501
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: think that the question of how do you get fairly

502
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: contributed for the work that you produce online? Oftentimes you know,

503
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: like you and I have researched a podcast, it takes

504
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: a while, Like we don't just come to the microphone

505
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: with you know, this is as as good as we

506
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: are at this, This is not you know, improvisational. It

507
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: takes a lot of research, a lot of work, and

508
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: I think that's true for a lot of creative folks

509
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: out there, even though people might not see that labor.

510
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: So how do we produce a landscape where people can

511
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: be compensated fairly for what they are producing? I don't

512
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: have the answer, yeah, um, but a step in the

513
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: right direction is what we're talking about, right, like being

514
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: transparent about it, um. And one of the sad things

515
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: about this is that a lot of women don't even

516
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: realize that it's a problem. Right, Yeah, that Honey Book

517
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: surveyaby we're talking about, They surveyed over three thousand creative entrepreneurs. Now,

518
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: of these entrepreneurs believe men and women are paid equally

519
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: in creative industries, even though the gender wage gap is

520
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: worse for creatives than traditional industry. So the creative industry

521
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: is actually worse than other industries in terms of gender

522
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: pay disparity. But yet, because of the weirdness of the

523
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: creative industry, and I think for some other reasons as well,

524
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: which we'll get into, a lot of folks kind of

525
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: don't even realize there's a problem, and there is a problem,

526
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, the sad realities that some of your favorite

527
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: content creators are probably not making a ton of money.

528
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: The researchers discovered that there are far more freelance and

529
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: self employed women than men living below the poverty line.

530
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: Over female creative entrepreneurs are making us than nine dollars

531
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: per hour, compared to only of male creatives. For nearly

532
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: a quarter of the women studied, that number drops below

533
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: five dollars, putting them well under the federal minimum wage. Similarly,

534
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: only of female creatives are earning over twenty five dollars

535
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: per hour in revenue, compared to forty percent of male creatives,

536
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think, like what you were saying is

537
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: that one of the big problems is that because of

538
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: the societal weirdness of talking about money, because of the

539
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: the you know, gender bs that we have to deal with,

540
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: a lot of us out there maybe don't even realize

541
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: that there's an issue. And I think what you were

542
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: talking about earlier is is I know, I keep coming

543
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: back to this, but I think it's it's so important

544
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: just the sort of nature of creative work being told

545
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: that like being given a platform or you know, you

546
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: that you should be happy that you're getting anything at

547
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: all because you're able to cut a check, talking into

548
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: a microphone or whatever, or like painting a picture or

549
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: taking a photo or planning an event, that you should

550
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: be grateful for anything that you get. And if you

551
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: ask any questions one you look ungrateful, and too there's

552
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: the door because there's a million other people out there

553
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: who would kill for this opportunity. And I think that,

554
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: like that thing is such a gross, a gross perspective.

555
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: Gabby Done, the author of Bad with Money. She actually

556
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: went on an episode of Keep It with Ira Madison

557
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: and Ira and Gabby had this amazing conversation about their

558
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: time working at BuzzFeed and how all of this came

559
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: into play. Here's here's what she had to say. It's

560
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: like these companies too, like they pay you so little

561
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: for the privilege of working for them, and it's supposed

562
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: to sort of be like, well, we're paying you an exposure,

563
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: but we did like multiple episodes on. An exposure is

564
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: not going to pay your rent or buy you dinner.

565
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, this is you know that that feeling is

566
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: one hundred percent in my life. Like I was driving

567
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: in a car when I heard this this interview, when

568
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: I thought, oh my god, that's me. Like I almost

569
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: had to pull over because I thought, yes, she actually

570
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: verbalized how I feel that you sort of get these

571
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: golden handcuffs where you feel kind of afraid to make

572
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: waves or ask questions or even just inquire about how

573
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 1: much you're being compensated because you're made to feel like

574
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: you should just be grateful for getting anything at all. Yeah,

575
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: and um, I, like I said, that's that's been pretty

576
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: much my entire experience in the field of acting. Um,

577
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: And I know it's most people's experience. It's not exclusive

578
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: to me at all. It's kind of a running joke

579
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: that not only are you not going to get paid,

580
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: you're not going to get whatever tiny thing that they

581
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: agreed to get to you to show that you did

582
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: this work to make that to get exposure, and because

583
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: you have to have it's sort of like your resume.

584
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: They won't even give you that to put on your

585
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: rest me and it's just assumed. It's it's just the

586
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: way it is. That is so. I mean, it's that mean,

587
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: it's like dehumanizing. You know, you've already accepted that your

588
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: worth is nothing. You've already sort of internalized like, okay,

589
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: I at the shop at the correct time, you know,

590
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: ready to go, and that is worth nothing. I am

591
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: worth zero on that on that front um. And then

592
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: the thing, the like pitiful thing that you negotiated for

593
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: the small pittance that you were promised, you don't even

594
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: get that, like like that feeling is so I mean,

595
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: it's a bummer. It's a bummer, and you can really

596
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: internalize it, I think and be like, oh, well that

597
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: means that I am worthless, right, you know, I I

598
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: think when you are have you, when you've accepted okay,

599
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: this is a crap situation. I'm gonna make the best

600
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: of it and not even getting that one nugget that

601
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: was gonna make the crap sandwich worth it in the

602
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: first place, Like, how do you make sense of that?

603
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: How do you internalize yourself as a valued, creative, talented

604
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: professional person when that is just the vibe all the

605
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 1: time and you're supposed to just eat it with a smile.

606
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: It's hard not to internalize those kinds of things, and

607
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: especially when this industry that in particular is for women

608
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: mostly based on your looks and less based on your talent.

609
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: Um there there's a commonly recited statistic that I'm not

610
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: sure how true it is, but it's that, um, they'll

611
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: decide within two two seconds whether or not they want

612
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: to even watch your audition just by your hit the image,

613
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: whether or not you fit the look, so they might

614
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: not you might be paying for this thing that nobody

615
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: has even watching. They're just looking, evaluating based on how

616
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: you look and going from there. And then also I've

617
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: heard that the number of followers you have on social

618
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: media sometimes impacts whether or not they'll watch it at all,

619
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: And so it is hard to not feel like it's

620
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 1: completely pointless and that it's hard not to start evaluating

621
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: yourself in that way, especially if you do just get

622
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: rejection after rejection after rejection, then it's hard. Um. I

623
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: love doing it, and sometimes it's sad because I feel

624
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: stupid for trying to do it because almost it feels pointless. Yeah,

625
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: I can something. I'm really I'm like hearing in your

626
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: voice and I'm veoing it on it because I certainly

627
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: know what it feels like when you do something that

628
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: you love. Right when you speak, when you talk about acting,

629
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: I can tell that acting is work that you love,

630
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: that fulfills you, that makes you feel whole, makes you

631
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: feel good, and having there be something that makes you

632
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: feel so demoralized attached to work that also makes you

633
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: feel good is a total mind. And that's that's how

634
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: I feel too. Where you know, I would look at

635
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: these people were writers or podcasters or made things or whatever,

636
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: and I would think, you know, they're probably making so

637
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: much money. But knowing and who knows that that's true.

638
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: I think that it's one of those things that you know,

639
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: when I see someone that seems so successful and it

640
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: seems like they've hacked this whole system. In my mind,

641
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: I come up with the story that like, oh, they're

642
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: probably working out a million things behind the scenes that

643
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: you don't see, and they're probably really happy. They probably

644
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, live in a sustainable home that's not chaotic.

645
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: They probably you know, go to the dentist regularly, they

646
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: probably have health insurance. Like all of these things, all

647
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: of these insecurities that I feel about trying to be

648
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,479
Speaker 1: a creative professional and pursuing this as a goal, because

649
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: that's something that I like, I project on them, and

650
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 1: it really it makes you feel crummy. You know, you

651
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: you want to do the thing that makes you feel good,

652
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: but when that thing is also attached to this constant

653
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: sense of undervaluing and constantly feeling like, oh, I'm not

654
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: worth x amount, I'm not worth this, it's just such

655
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: a mind I can't even really unpack it. It's just

656
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: so intense. And I think the key is, how do

657
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: we not internalize that? And how do we put that

658
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 1: on industries, on outlets, on media companies, on casting agents

659
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: and say, hey, y'all are actually perpetuating a system that

660
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: makes a lot of us feel like garbage and we

661
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with it, Like, how do

662
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: we how do we not internalize that? But then look

663
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: at the actual systems that are making that a reality

664
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: in our lives. Yeah, and I think UM rejection sucks

665
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: and you're not being like a big baby like you

666
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: can handle it as an adult, but it sucks. And

667
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: to be in an industry that constantly UM does reinforce

668
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: this idea that really you have little value. That sucks. Yeah,

669
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: it does suck. And I think it is important to

670
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: remind folks that if that's how you feel, if you're

671
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: just trying to make it out there, you're Yeah, you're

672
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: not being a baby it you we have to deal

673
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: with things that really emotionally can be hard to process.

674
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: And if you're someone like me, where you're and I'm

675
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: sure a lot of folks are, you might be as well.

676
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: Where you feel good when your work is when you

677
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: feel good about your work. But when you don't feel

678
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: good about your work, when I don't feel right about

679
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: my work, I don't feel good, like I like, I

680
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: go into a dark place and I can't have and

681
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: maybe that's not healthy. But when you know the work

682
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: that I that I've chosen to do in my life

683
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: is work that I do because I care about it. Right,

684
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: my activism, I do that because I give it about

685
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: this my creative pursuits. I do that because I care

686
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: about it, and I care about, you know, connecting with

687
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: people and hopefully like helping people sort through complicated stuff

688
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,479
Speaker 1: in society that we're all flogging through together and learning

689
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: and growing together and yadi, YadA, YadA, all that stuff.

690
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: I do that stuff because it makes me feel good

691
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: and I care about it. It's not just a job.

692
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: And for me, when I don't feel good about how

693
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: things are going on that front, nothing in my life

694
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: feels good, right I I can't feel good about almost

695
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: anything because that is such a internal fire inside of me.

696
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 1: And so you know, I was watching this this show

697
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: it's um on Netflix about a child actress and her

698
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: father was sort of her manager but was also an actor,

699
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: and he was like, oh, I never wanted her to

700
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: be an actor because I didn't want this life of

701
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: constant rejection for her. And I really, even though this

702
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: was fictional, I felt that I thought, Yeah, that does

703
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: that does suck? Like it does suck to have to

704
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: deal with that and then go out and be a person. Because,

705
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: as we know, we like to pretend that our work

706
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: bucket and our relationship bucket and our family bucket and

707
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: our friend bucket. Those are all separate buckets, but they're

708
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: actually one bucket. Like it's all intersecting, you know, career,

709
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: you in the office, it's the same as at home,

710
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: you with your friends, Like it's all one thing, and

711
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: it's just really I guess what I'm saying is that

712
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: it's really difficult to deal with that and then have

713
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: to go out and like be a person who hasn't

714
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: a regular life outside of that. It's like, it's it's

715
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: almost impossible for me, and I can only imagine how

716
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: it is for other folks as well. And and we

717
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 1: don't talk about it, so people feel like, oh, I'm

718
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: a baby, or oh I'm emotional, or oh I'm taking

719
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: this too seriously, or oh, you know, I need some

720
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 1: one to let it go, or oh it's not personal,

721
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: just business. But it can feel personal. It feels personal.

722
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: It absolutely does, because um, creative things are personal buying nature,

723
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: so it's hard not to take it that way. And

724
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've I've heard a lot of advice

725
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: on like just grow a thick skin, and I think

726
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: that that's legitimate, and I've definitely gotten like toughened up,

727
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 1: but I also think that it just wears you down

728
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: no matter what, UM, and it is hard to go

729
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: out after that and not let it impact other parts

730
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: of your life. Hum. And another part of this conversation

731
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: is I feel and I'm sure you probably feel the

732
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: same way, bridget that, UM, A lot of people seem

733
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: to think that, um, creative work isn't really work. Yeah,

734
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: I've definitely I've kind of experienced both of that. I

735
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: know people that assume that because they hear my voice

736
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: on a podcast, that I'm wealthy, which is hilarious to me.

737
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: That's so funny. Um. I've had people assume that the

738
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: work that we do is not really work, so why

739
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: do we get paid? But I think I think again, like,

740
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: I think we need to demystify. And that's that's part

741
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: of what I want to do with this podcast. I

742
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 1: want to we want to I want to demystify creative work. Right,

743
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: it's not magic that happens in a you know, land

744
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: far far away somewhere. But it's not nothing either. It's

745
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: not just you know, pressing a button on your phone

746
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: and calling it a day like for some shows. I mean,

747
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: I've had to get up at three am to get

748
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: on a train to the middle of nowhere to interview

749
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: somebody that I didn't like talking to, and then go

750
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: home and edit it all together. Like you know, it's

751
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: it's it is work. You know, I was up to

752
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: prepare for this episode today. It was up until four am.

753
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: You know, it is labor. It is work. And just

754
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: because people don't see that or don't understand that doesn't

755
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: mean it's not true. And I think anybody out there,

756
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: you know, I had a friend who was who was

757
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: a wedding photographer, and she was like, Yo, if you

758
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: knew the amount of people who expected me to do

759
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: this for free, it would curl your toes, you know,

760
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 1: if you knew the amount of people who thought that, like,

761
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: what I'm doing is just a hobby. And I'm sure

762
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: for some people it is a hobby. But if you

763
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: get good or not that, why shouldn't you make money?

764
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: Right Like you you went out and drove to the

765
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: event or whatever, Like, why shouldn't you make money for that?

766
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: You could have been you could have been sleeping, you

767
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: could have been doing anything else. Yeah, you're providing value,

768
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: right you. I'm assuming that a lot of times when

769
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: people ask for you to do it for free. Then

770
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: they're either someone that you know or they they kind

771
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: of say, well you can put it in your portfolio. Um,

772
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: But the reality is for something like wedding photos, there's

773
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 1: a market for that, like people pay for that if

774
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: you want them. There's value for to you and having

775
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: it done professionally and not by just I don't know

776
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: your nephew, Like not everyone can do it, or you

777
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: would have just asked exactly exactly, Oh I want that

778
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: tattooed on my forehead. If everybody can do it, you

779
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't be asking me to do it, you know, if

780
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: anyone can do it, I wouldn't have been doing it

781
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: for two years if anybody can do it. Like I

782
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: remember seeing this thing on Twitter and it was clearly

783
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: like a joke, but it really made me think. Where

784
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: it was a woman who does really intricate nail art,

785
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: like fingernail art, and it was a d M where

786
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 1: someone was like, oh, um, how much do you charge

787
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: for this? I would love to get my nails done.

788
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 1: What's the cost? And she said, you know, however much

789
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: it cost eighty dollars whatever, and the person replied, like

790
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: eighty dollars you know, Like, how do you, how do

791
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: you expect to you know, like that's way too much money,

792
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: like like why would I pay you for that? You know,

793
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: like what's your game here? And she responded, well, you know,

794
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 1: I'm not the one who like I'm the one who

795
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: knows how to do it, Like I'm the one who

796
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: can do it, and you're coming to me, like you're

797
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: the one who doesn't have the money to get your

798
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: nails done. And it's like haggling in someone's d m s. Right,

799
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: Like if there wasn't value, you would do it yourself.

800
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: But the fact that you're coming to someone who has

801
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: that skill it's a professional, means that there it's it's ticks,

802
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: talent and work, and like that's like your tacit acknowledgement

803
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: of that. And so the whole conversation is kind of silly,

804
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, it's so funny how many people

805
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: assume anyone can do it, but then when it comes

806
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: down to it and we can't find anyone to just

807
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 1: do it for free, Like yeah, it turns out that

808
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: there are professionals and that you want one for whatever

809
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: it is that you're looking for. And what if we

810
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: treated creative pursuits, you know, oh, you can put it

811
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: in your portfolio. Whatever. What if you were going to

812
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: get dental work done and you were like, well, I'm

813
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: not gonna pay you in money for phil my cavity,

814
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: but imagine all the exposure that you will get when

815
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: people see my beautiful smile, you know, like or like

816
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: what if you told that to any of like literally

817
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: any other professional that now I'm not going to pay you,

818
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: pay you. But when people see your the great work

819
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: you did on this gall bladder surgery, I think about

820
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: how valuable that will be for you. So many people

821
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: who need gall bladder surgery will come to you because

822
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 1: of me. You're welcome, absolutely, So I really want to

823
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: continue this conversation around page transparency and let everyone know

824
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: what's up and really sort of demystify all of it.

825
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: But first a quick break and we are back. Thank

826
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: you sponsor. So when I was preparing for this episode,

827
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, when I read that article that we started

828
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: the show with, I was like, oh my god, this

829
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: woman started her own page transparency and I found that

830
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: to be so shocking. So when I was preparing for

831
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: this episode, I thought part of me wants to do that.

832
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: I'm still unsure of whether I want to or not,

833
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: Like I have not decided, um, but I do think

834
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: it's important to have these conversations and demystify, you know,

835
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: pay and what people are paid and all of that.

836
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: So I'm going to do that. I'm a little nervous.

837
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: We'll see how it goes. Maybe we'll call it maybe

838
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: one who knows. But for my work at this podcast,

839
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: I make two thousand dollars a month, and if you've

840
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: ever wondered how much the podcaster make, it ranges a lot.

841
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: I work across other projects as well, for which I

842
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: am paid differently, But that's how much the podcast that

843
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 1: you're listening to, Like, that's what I make. And so

844
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: honestly shout out to Jackie Lou at Medium who inspired

845
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: me to do that. And it does feel weird, you know,

846
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 1: this idea of like one, are people are going to

847
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: be like, oh my god, she's massively overpaid for this,

848
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: I can't believe that's how much they pay, or will

849
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: they be oh my god like like neither of these

850
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: Neither option feels good. It doesn't feel good to have

851
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: people think you're overpaid. Actually maybe it does feel good

852
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: because then you're like, yeah, I'm balling. But you know,

853
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel good to have people be like, oh,

854
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: that's what you did you do that for that? You know,

855
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: it's a it's a that feels crummy and bad and awful.

856
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think demystifying what we make is important

857
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: because a lot of people just don't know, you know,

858
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: they don't know. You know, when I was first turning

859
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: out as a podcaster, I didn't know what was inappropriate.

860
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: Like I didn't know if podcasters made a million dollars

861
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: or nothing, right, because we don't talk about it. I

862
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: didn't I couldn't tell you if photographers make a hundred

863
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: dollars an hour or like twelve, Like, I really do

864
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: not know. And I think that that those conversations, particularly

865
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: for things that seem a bit flashy, like oh, you're

866
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: a YouTuber or you're on TV or this or that.

867
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: You know, Like I remember reading about Meghan Kelly her

868
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: her deal with NBC going south this week, and when

869
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: they disclosed how much she made, I was like what,

870
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: And that really put it into sharp context for me.

871
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 1: You know, what the network had invested in with her

872
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: show and what they were losing financially by her leaving,

873
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: Like so when I found out the concrete number that

874
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: Megan Kelly was, you know, making an NBC, which was

875
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: sixty million dollars for a three year contract, it really

876
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: put into sharp perspective A just how much that network

877
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: had invested in her financially and B how much they

878
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: were out because they still have to pay that money

879
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 1: even though she's no longer you're gonna be on the air,

880
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: they still have to pay that money. How much financial

881
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: investment that was, and and having that number put it

882
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: in such sharp by detail and focus to me. And

883
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: so I really do think even though it feels weird,

884
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 1: like I'm sure she feels weird to have everybody know

885
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: how much that deal was worth, altho maybe again it's

886
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: so much money. Maybe she's like, yeah, looks how much

887
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: I pulled in. Um And it does feel awkward, like

888
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: I'm trembling right now talking about this because it is awkward,

889
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: but um yeah, like like we're like working through the

890
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: awkwardness of talking about money will help get us all free.

891
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: You know, if you if you are out with your girlfriends,

892
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 1: you know my again, my my friends will tell me suck.

893
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: I know things about my friends boyfriend's penis that I

894
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't know, but I don't know how much she makes, right,

895
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: Like I remember having a conversation when one of my

896
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: good friends lost her job where someone said, oh, well,

897
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: you're supposed to have six months of your salary saved up,

898
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: and I have that, And I was like, what you have?

899
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: This whole time, You've had six months of your salary

900
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 1: saved up and I've been paying for brunch, you know,

901
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: like that conversation, Like like those conversations are hello, weird

902
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: and hella awkward, but we talk about everything else with

903
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: our friends, Like we should start, Like, let's start there.

904
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: Let's start by demystifying money conversations and working through the

905
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: awkwardness and the discomfort. And again, I'm not gonna lie,

906
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: this is hella uncomfortable, but let's work through that so

907
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: that we can get to a place where it's not

908
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 1: uncomfortable to have that conversation. Because if you have that conversation,

909
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: if you get comfortable with having that conversation over drinks

910
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: with your friends, now you might feel more comfortable to

911
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: do it with your hiring manager, who's going to determine

912
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: if you make seventy or eighty thousan dollars a year, right,

913
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: you might feel more comfortable, determined, like having that conversation

914
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: with with a stakeholder who can really make an impact

915
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 1: in your life. But I think we all have to

916
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,479
Speaker 1: start from a place where pay transparency and talking about

917
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 1: money and talking about how we make it, particularly as

918
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: creative as I think and as women, is not such

919
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: a scary awkward thing and working through that together. Yeah,

920
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: I I totally agree. And like I mentioned the top

921
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: of the podcast, I feel I've always known talking about

922
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: money is has been a weird thing in the United States,

923
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: but it never has been for me. So I know

924
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: I could tell you what all of my friends make exactly,

925
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: so you know, you know how much all of your

926
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: people make. Like, if it's not, it's like, is it

927
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: an awkward conversation to have? How did you come to

928
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: this information? I guess it is my question. We're just

929
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: we've just totally each other. I think it's it's because

930
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 1: we do a lot of stuff together, so when we're

931
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: planning trips. I think that's originally how it came up,

932
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: and we were like, Okay, well, what is in the

933
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: affordable range for everybody? What is what is outrageous for someone?

934
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: And then most of my friends are very um blunt

935
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: and just just tell you, UM, I have one friend

936
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: in particular that like she'll she'll list out. I have

937
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: this offer from here, this offer from here, this offer

938
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: from here. She's a traveling nurse. Um, what do you

939
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: think which one is the better option? She were like

940
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: part of the negotiation process. I love that. I mean,

941
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: but you wouldn't be able to build that supportive community

942
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: of friends if you didn't have those conversations in specifics. Yeah, yeah, exactly. UM.

943
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: And to to be transparent with you, bridget I make

944
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: UM every two weeks, I'm really bad about keeping job.

945
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: Every two weeks, I get a check for twelvellars. But

946
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: I am different than you that I am a salaried employee.

947
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: That's right. So I and this is something else that

948
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: I hate admitting. And I I God, people are going

949
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: to write in and like, I get it. I deserve it.

950
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: Since I'm not full time, I don't have health insurance.

951
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: And you might be thinking, why aren't you on the exchange.

952
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: There was a very complicated personal reason for that, UM,

953
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: involving timing and it's and it's a logistical thing that

954
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: like I will get into later or if you DM

955
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: me or like email me, I'll explain it to you.

956
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: But it's very boring, and it's very like, oh, well,

957
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: this thing happened at this date, and that time happened

958
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: at that date, and therefore we have to wait until

959
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: next year. So blah blah blah. Long story short, but yeah,

960
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean basic things like it sucks to feel like

961
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: an adult who like nothing makes me feel like I

962
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: don't have my life together more than that thing, and

963
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: I'm very blessed and that my mom is a doctor

964
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: and that I live in a city that you can

965
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 1: really at least for me, if you know how to

966
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 1: navigate a few things. It isn't that it isn't as

967
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: awful as you might think. I guess I'll put it

968
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: that way. But you know, on Twitter recently, I was like, yeah,

969
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: self employed creative professionals when it is the last time

970
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: that you saw a dentist, And some of the answers

971
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: almost like, yeah, we are really making clearly making some

972
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: sacrifices in our overall lives to do this thing, and

973
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: it's okay to acknowledge that. So I'm sure there's somebody

974
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: out there, like I know other folks who are in

975
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: this podcast, family who have talked, who have talked to

976
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: about this, and they're like, yeah, I don't have health

977
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: insurance and have a health insurance for years, and it's again,

978
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: it's scary and like my heart is racing. It's scary

979
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: to talk about it, and it makes you feel weirdly,

980
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: it just makes it doesn't make you feel good, you know.

981
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: And I think in an industry where it's so like

982
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: steeped in top thirty, under thirty this and you know,

983
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: everybody wants to be successful, and like you see images

984
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: of success all the time, and you want that and

985
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: you want to know what that looks like and what

986
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,439
Speaker 1: that feels like. And maybe you're projecting stuff because again,

987
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: who knows, everyone's dealing with their own stuff. But it's

988
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: just this industry is so strange because of how many

989
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: of these professional things are attached to how you feel

990
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: about yourself and your own self worth. And maybe that's unhealthy.

991
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: But I don't know how to how to attached the two,

992
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, absolutely, I mean it's pretty That's essentially

993
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: what it is is the economy telling you putting a

994
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: price to your word. And I will say for me,

995
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: I in general have benefited so much from women ahead

996
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: of me, um, because I was pretty oblivious when I

997
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 1: and her job market. I am assuming a lot of

998
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: people are, but they told me to ask for things

999
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 1: that are I wouldn't have even known to ask for.

1000
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: And I've I've benefited from having this really great friend

1001
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: group where we're very open about it. So I do

1002
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: think having this is great. Yeah, totally. And I think,

1003
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: you know, I want to and with talking about what

1004
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: we can do, how we can get free together and

1005
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: lift as we climb and all that good stuff. And

1006
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: I think the number one thing is what you said,

1007
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: talk about how much you make. I think it's especially important,

1008
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: you know, if you're a man, if you're a white person,

1009
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 1: I think it's especially important because I think we can

1010
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: feel sort of boxed out. We don't know, we don't

1011
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: have the information, and so having those conversations I think

1012
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: is really really important. And I'm I'm so happy that

1013
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: you have that that supportive community of folks in your

1014
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: life with whom you can not just talk about this with,

1015
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: but get some advice from and be like, oh, well

1016
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 1: that's a good deal, and that doesn't feel like a

1017
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: good deal, or like this is a good offer, or

1018
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 1: you should ask for more on this offer or whatever.

1019
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: You know. Having someone who can help you with those

1020
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: conversations I think is so important. Um the muse puts

1021
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: this really really well. They right. Instead of jumping in

1022
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: head first, keep your eyes open for opportunity the next

1023
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: time you're up for a raise or receive a job offer.

1024
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 1: Instead of circumventing the number the thing you're talking about,

1025
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: why not just say it. This is how it would sound.

1026
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 1: My boss approved the raise I asked for, so now

1027
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: I'm holding out at a steady a d K. My

1028
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: goal is to be making a six figure salary by

1029
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 1: the time I'm thirty five. Your friend or coworker will

1030
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: probably feel as enlightened as you feel after being candid

1031
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: about your financial situation. The more often you start opening

1032
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: up about your earnings and your future salary goals, the

1033
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: more comfortable you'll be with it, so that eventually mentioning

1034
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: your income will be as easy as talking about your

1035
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: insane summer electric bill. And I really like I just

1036
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 1: loved that so much that if you start having those conversations, Yeah,

1037
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: they might be weird at first, and your heart might

1038
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,399
Speaker 1: be racing, and you might be thinking you know this

1039
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: is awkward and weird, and maybe it is, but that's

1040
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: the only the only way out is through you know,

1041
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: the only way to normalize it, so that talking about money,

1042
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: which would benefit all of us, you know, talk having

1043
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: these kind of conversations. The only way to get to

1044
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 1: that point is if you start doing it. Yeah, And

1045
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: and what I love about that quote is, Um, I

1046
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: do think that a lot of people feel weird about

1047
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: it at first, but it's having those conversations is good

1048
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: for everyone. I think probably if you you and your

1049
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: employee or your employee your coworker have this conversation, but

1050
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: both parties are going to be happy that you had it,

1051
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: Like I think, Um, in my experience, UM, we have

1052
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 1: pretty open conversations about it in our department, and it's

1053
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: awkward at first, but I think it does make it

1054
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: kind of removes this tension around it because you're like, oh, yeah,

1055
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: we're all on the same page. Absolutely absolutely, I'm I'm

1056
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: so proud that you know, like how much your friends

1057
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: and parents and brother makes you know. Yeah, I feel

1058
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: really lucky. I hadn't realized how strange it strange it is.

1059
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: I guess, Um I knew I Like I said, I

1060
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: knew it was weird. Money is a weird topic, but

1061
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: in my life it hasn't hasn't been so much So

1062
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: another way that we can really help tackle this together

1063
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: in addition to just talking about money, is making salaries public.

1064
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: In seventeen, California Governor Jerry Brown vetoed a B twelve

1065
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 1: O nine, the Gender Pay Gap Transparency Act. In a

1066
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: state it's one of the strongest equal pay environments in

1067
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: the country. The vetoed bill would have required companies with

1068
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: more than five hundred employees to collect and report the

1069
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: salary information for both men and women in the same

1070
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: job to the state, which would be published online. And

1071
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 1: at the federal level, Trump suspended in ecutive order put

1072
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: in place by Obama that would have advanced paid transparency

1073
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 1: for federal contract employees. The executive order would have required

1074
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: companies to report salaries by race and gender. So you know,

1075
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 1: there there is movement on this from other states. States

1076
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 1: like Alaska, Illinois, Minnesota, and New Hampshire already collects and

1077
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: published data on the pay gap um. But you know,

1078
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: we saw the long way to go in terms of

1079
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: making this a a normalized institutional thing where it's just

1080
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: a given that you might have some idea of of

1081
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: what folks are making. Yeah, and some companies are taking

1082
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: this into their own hands, like Whole Foods has a

1083
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: pay transparency policy. Social media startup Buffer posted employee salaries online.

1084
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: And we've been focusing all lot on the US in

1085
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: this conversation, but it isn't just a problem in the US.

1086
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: I remember reading in one of my high school textbooks

1087
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: that I brought up before that it was impolite to

1088
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: ask got money in other countries too, So listeners from

1089
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: other countries, please let us know if that's the case.

1090
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: In early Iceland passed a law requiring companies prove they

1091
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: have a fair pay practice in place they have more

1092
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: than twenty five employees and they don't, they face a

1093
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: daily fine. And in the UK they passed a similar

1094
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: law this year as well, requiring all companies with two

1095
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: fifty employees are more have they have to post differences

1096
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: in salary between male and female employees each year. I

1097
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 1: think that's great again. I think getting to a place

1098
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 1: where this is not just an internalized, weird thing that

1099
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: we're just expected to have inside of us, but rather

1100
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: is externalized where it's like there it is in the policy.

1101
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: There it is, and that you know, in the baked

1102
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: into the fabric of how we are going to do business.

1103
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 1: I think that's so important to move that weird thing

1104
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:49,919
Speaker 1: from a weird thing inside of us to a thing

1105
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 1: on a page where you know, you can point to

1106
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: it and say, oh, here's what we're doing to you know,

1107
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 1: deal with pay the pay gap. Here's how it's being challenged.

1108
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: Here are your rights, here's what you can do. Here's

1109
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: information you can find as opposed to having to like

1110
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: sneak and find out in weird ways and all of that. Yeah,

1111
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: and it's something else that we can do um or

1112
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: that you can do if you're a hiring manager, is

1113
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: don't base salaries on salary history. Absolutely, you know, since

1114
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: women tend to earn less and pretty much all occupations

1115
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: when compared to men, the practice of being asked to

1116
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: tell once previous salary can compound these inequalities and follow

1117
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: us for the course of our entire careers. If you

1118
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: have to tell someone what you made at your last

1119
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: job and they're going to tether your your next pay

1120
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: offer with that, you really are kind of starting from

1121
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: a from a lower point, right that that increases the

1122
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: likelihood that women would have to negotiate from a lower

1123
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 1: starting point than their male counterparts. Yeah, I've definitely fallen

1124
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: into this chap of thinking. So that's just the way

1125
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 1: I think about it is, basing it on my salary history.

1126
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: And when I first interviewed, like my real job, a

1127
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 1: real job, I I totally blanked when they asked me

1128
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: how much I was looking for, how much I was

1129
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 1: looking to make, and I said some ridiculously low number.

1130
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: And a part of it, too, was I felt very

1131
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: underqualified for the job, like maybe if I say something

1132
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: really low, then I'll be more likely to get it.

1133
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: I regret it looking back, but I was in college.

1134
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: I was new to the whole thing um, and I'm

1135
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: fortunate also managers should just be this way. But by

1136
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: the person who was interviewing me said they would never

1137
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: pay anyone below thirty dollars a year, which is way

1138
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: more than I asked for. Oh my gosh, I'm so curious.

1139
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: What did you ask for? I feel like like, looking back,

1140
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 1: it was a blur. I think I said, like, I'll

1141
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 1: pay you, how about that? Yes, I'll make you cookies

1142
01:02:54,920 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: every day. I'll be such a delight. Well, Annie You'll

1143
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: be happy to know that recently, states like California, Delaware, Massachusetts,

1144
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: in Oregon, along with the cities of New Orleans and

1145
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: New York City and Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, now I've pretty

1146
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: much banned the act of asking candidates their salary histories

1147
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: from previous jobs, and so that might have made college

1148
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: job applicant Annie's life a little bit easier. I I hope.

1149
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: So I really went through a string of very bad

1150
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: job interviews. I like to think I've gotten better now.

1151
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: It's really ironic because I used to teach a class

1152
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 1: on how to do a successful job interview. I'm not

1153
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: sure why. God, I have not had a job interview

1154
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: in a very long time. I can only imagine. I mean,

1155
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: I God, I mean, listen, I I it's been such

1156
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: a long time I've had an office job that I

1157
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: can only imagine I'm terrible at it. I remember once

1158
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 1: at a job in of you being interviewed to blog

1159
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: about politics for Think Progress. They asked me, what is

1160
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: probably the most obvious question, like if you were preparing

1161
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 1: for questions that you might be asked in an interview

1162
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: like this, they asked, what are some other like I

1163
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: was gonna be a political blogger? What are some other

1164
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: blogs that you read? And I wake up every morning

1165
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: and I read ten political blogs, right like I eat, sleep,

1166
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: and breathe political blogs. But I pulled a total Sarah Palin.

1167
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: My mind went completely blank, and I think I just

1168
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 1: said all the good ones and I blurted it out.

1169
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: It was so bad. I did not get the job.

1170
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: They were very right not to give me that job.

1171
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I should. I should take your class.

1172
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: I once my worst job interview was the day after

1173
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 1: my twenty one birthday, and um, I had to leave

1174
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: in the middle of the job interview to go vomit.

1175
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: And then I came back in and she she said, so,

1176
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: I see your birthday was yesterday, And I said, and

1177
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: she was, like, twenty one And I did not get

1178
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: that job either. Yeah, I'm sure she knew what was up.

1179
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: Oh man, why did you schedule a job interview for

1180
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: that day? That was very foolish and ambitious of me. Oh,

1181
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: that's like when you when you go when you know

1182
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: you've got a night plan and then you schedule like

1183
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: an early flight like present you you should know future

1184
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: you is not going to make that flight, but you

1185
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 1: always you always have hope you know. Yes, I like

1186
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: that you talk in those versions too. I always blame

1187
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 1: past Danny for all of my mistakes. Oh Um, Past

1188
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 1: Bridget and I we have a lot, we have a

1189
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 1: lot of forgiving to do. We have to like we

1190
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: have to like go to like a retreat and make

1191
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: make make amends with each other because I have a

1192
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: lot of phones to pick with that lady. What a

1193
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 1: retreat that would be, I can only imagine. Well, we

1194
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 1: hope this episode has been transparent and helpful and enlightening

1195
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: for you listeners. I mean, if you're a man, definitely

1196
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 1: go to hello, woman, how much you make so that

1197
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 1: she can get her life? Yeah? Yeah, I think this

1198
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: is a great conversation to to continue. And I mean

1199
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: just this morning I saw something about pay transparency in

1200
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: UM in Silicon Valley especially, So I'm glad that we

1201
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: were having these conversations and hopefully we will make it

1202
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: less weird to talk about money. And in the meantime,

1203
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you listeners. You can

1204
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: email us at mom Stuff at how staff works dot com,

1205
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: and you can find us on social media on Instagram

1206
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: at stuff I've Never Told You and on Twitter, at

1207
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast, Thanks as always to reproducer Andrew Howard,

1208
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening.