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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to

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Speaker 1: you absolutely free. But if you want add free listening

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Speaker 1: and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot

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Speaker 1: com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Talking to Death. It's me again. Dylan Harrington,

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Speaker 2: producer of the show. Pain and Mic are taking a

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Speaker 2: much need to break today. We actually just got back

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Speaker 2: from Crime Con. If you haven't heard of Crime Con,

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Speaker 2: it's a big convention happens every year, always in a

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Speaker 2: different place. This year it was in Nashville, Tennessee, so

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Speaker 2: we a lot of us drove up for that. If

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Speaker 2: you haven't heard of Crime Con, it's a convention for

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Speaker 2: fans of true crime and it was a really interesting

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Speaker 2: experience my first time going. I know Pain and Mike

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Speaker 2: have done it for years. It's a place where the

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Speaker 2: most diehard true crime fans can come and meet their

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Speaker 2: favorite or podcasters, their favorite true crime personalities across TV

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Speaker 2: and other kinds of media. And I think most importantly

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Speaker 2: what I learned is it's a place where families can

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Speaker 2: come families who have lost loved ones and are trying

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Speaker 2: to get the message out about you know, their family

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Speaker 2: members who have disappeared, trying to get the message out

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Speaker 2: to either find funding to help or find a podcaster

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Speaker 2: who's interested in the story who may pick it up

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Speaker 2: and gain media exposure through them. And I've seen it

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Speaker 2: happen many times. A lot of your favorite podcasts have

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Speaker 2: probably met the families through conventions like this, So it

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Speaker 2: can be a real resource for families who otherwise can't

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Speaker 2: find that sort of media exposure, family members who may

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Speaker 2: have hit dead ends working with the police and then

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Speaker 2: have no other choice but to take matters into their

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Speaker 2: own hands. So it's an interesting environment. It's a lot

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Speaker 2: of worlds colliding ultimately for a good purpose, which is

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Speaker 2: to you know, help families find their loved ones or

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Speaker 2: find who killed their loved ones. And on that note,

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Speaker 2: that's what our episode is about today. So we were

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Speaker 2: lucky enough to link up with John Ramsey, whose name

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Speaker 2: you may have heard if you've ever heard of the

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Speaker 2: John Benet Ramsey case. Payne had the opportunity to talk

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Speaker 2: to John Ramsey as well as author Paula Woodward in

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Speaker 2: front of an audience of about five hundred.

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Speaker 4: People or so.

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Speaker 2: This episode will be a little little more interesting where

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Speaker 2: it's not as intimate. You're going to hear a lot

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Speaker 2: of like the stage and the crowd and things like that.

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Speaker 2: It's a much more open forum, much more raw than

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Speaker 2: we normally present. But it's a fascinating conversation worth listening to.

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Speaker 2: If you don't know anything about the John Bene Ramsey case,

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Speaker 2: I highly recommend just checking it out on the internet

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Speaker 2: a little bit before you listen to this episode, just

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Speaker 2: to get the groundwork and the foundation to understand what's

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Speaker 2: going on in this case. It's one of the most

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Speaker 2: enduring unsolved murder cases in American history and has been

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Speaker 2: unsolved for going on twenty seven twenty eight years. John

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Speaker 2: Bene Ramsey was found murdered in the basement of her

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Speaker 2: family home, and her murderer has never been found. There

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Speaker 2: has been a lot of controversy surrounding whether or not

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Speaker 2: the father and the mother or the brother were involved.

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Speaker 2: Tons of speculation, but the family has adamantly claimed since

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Speaker 2: day one that someone broke into their home and murdered

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Speaker 2: their daughter. The world is very torn on it. No

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Speaker 2: one really knows for sure, but during Crime con Painn

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Speaker 2: got the opportunity to sit down with John Ramsey and

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Speaker 2: ask him a series of questions. And we worked really

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Speaker 2: hard to prep the interview and make sure that we

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Speaker 2: covered our bases and Payne asks some interesting questions and

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Speaker 2: get some interesting answers. Paula Woodward is an investigative journalist

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Speaker 2: and she was the author of a recent book about

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Speaker 2: the John bin A Ramsey case called Unsolved the John

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Speaker 2: Bona Ramsey Murder Twenty five years Later. In it, she

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Speaker 2: documents a bunch of new information, a bunch of new

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Speaker 2: evidence that she's putting forth into the case, which is

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Speaker 2: a fascinating look into the case twenty five years later.

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Speaker 2: So you'll hear Paula interject in the conversation every now

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Speaker 2: and then, providing more evidence and more context. Buckle up,

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Speaker 2: get ready for this. Today's guest is John Ramsey and

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Speaker 2: Paula Woodward.

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Speaker 5: Please welcome to the stage the host of Talking to Death,

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Speaker 5: Payne Lindsay with John Ramsey, the father of the lady Awesome.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 6: So I first want to say thank you all of

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Speaker 6: you for being here.

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Speaker 1: I grew up, I was born in eighty seven and

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Speaker 1: when the murder of job and a Ramsey happened. It's

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Speaker 1: probably around eight years old, and it was at the

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Speaker 1: time where my mom would take me to the grocery

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Speaker 1: store and my siblings were too young and they stay home,

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Speaker 1: and so every single week I would see a new

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Speaker 1: tabloid at the checkout counter and.

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Speaker 6: I would just ask my mom, like, Yo, what is this,

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Speaker 6: what's going on?

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Speaker 1: And so literally ever since then, I've you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of followed the case and it had a very strong

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Speaker 1: early impression on me, and I kind of before this panel,

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Speaker 1: I was just kind of thinking, like, you know, I

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Speaker 1: bet you just you know, the John Benny Ramsay case,

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Speaker 1: I think probably had a tremendous influence on why I

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Speaker 1: even do true crime to begin with, from such a

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Speaker 1: such a young age. And I remember a few years

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Speaker 1: ago working on up in Vantas season two actually in Denver, Uh,

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Speaker 1: someone popped the balloon.

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Speaker 6: I was in.

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Speaker 1: Denver and your son John Andrew called me and I

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Speaker 1: was like holy shit, and he's like, hey, I.

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Speaker 6: Want you to do a podcast about my sister. And

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Speaker 6: I was like, one, are you? Are you serious?

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Speaker 1: And then two I was like like like why, Like

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Speaker 1: there's been so many things on this and the sincerity

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Speaker 1: he had in wanting to find out what happened, I

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Speaker 1: just blew me away.

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Speaker 6: And then eventually he linked us up for a minute and.

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Speaker 1: We had a short phone call, and I remember that

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Speaker 1: and I heard from you, and I just want to

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Speaker 1: say that, you know, there's so many different theories and.

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Speaker 6: All this stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's so messy, but one thing that is absolutely for

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Speaker 1: certain is that you're a sincere guy and you want

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Speaker 1: to know what happened, and that came through to me

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Speaker 1: in its purest form.

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Speaker 6: So please give him around the wallet for still being here.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, because of scheduling, I'm so annoyed at this, but

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Speaker 1: I missed y'all's panel from earlier, So I want to

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Speaker 1: give you guys a second to kind of talk about

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Speaker 1: what's the latest, summarizing, you know, I guess some of

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Speaker 1: the DNA stuff we were texting about, and then we

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Speaker 1: can kind of pivot from there and expand on that.

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Speaker 4: Well. Hopefully not repetitive to you folks, but we've been

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Speaker 4: very critical of the Voler police, not because they had

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Speaker 4: no experience, but because they refused help from the outside.

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Speaker 4: Lots of help was offered, and so for twenty seven years,

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Speaker 4: we've been trying to get them to accept help, give

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Speaker 4: the DNA evidence to the FBI, don't keep the case

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Speaker 4: in your control totally.

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Speaker 6: Why do you think they're doing that?

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I think initially it was arrogance ego.

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Speaker 4: The Denver police offered two detectives at their disposal. They said, no,

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Speaker 4: we don't need it. They didn't have some homicide detective

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Speaker 4: or a department.

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Speaker 7: There's nothing that explains the behavior. For twenty seven years,

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Speaker 7: years they have stalled. They have blamed John and Patsy

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Speaker 7: for murdering their daughter. They simply won't share information, they

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Speaker 7: won't ask for help.

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Speaker 3: And currently what they're.

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Speaker 7: Doing is they refuse to give the minute amount of

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Speaker 7: DNA that they have left over to a competent lab

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Speaker 7: for genealogy testing.

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Speaker 3: They're refusing to do it.

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Speaker 7: And it's been eight years, and you guys are familiar

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Speaker 7: with how many technological.

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Speaker 3: Advances there are with DNA. For eight years they refuse

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Speaker 3: say nope, we're not going to do it.

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Speaker 1: Why would they do that?

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Speaker 6: How is that? Do you know?

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Speaker 4: It's no logical explanation, right, no, right, But I begin

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Speaker 4: to think maybe the logical explanation is they've lost it,

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Speaker 4: or they've misplaced the evidence.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so maybe it's like there is no it's gone.

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Speaker 6: It's like, yeah, we're saying it's.

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Speaker 4: Just a suspicions.

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Speaker 7: Still, at the same time, I made up a list

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Speaker 7: of eighteen different pieces of crime scene evidence that have

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Speaker 7: never been tested for DNA, So if they want to

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Speaker 7: get more DNA, all they have to do is test that.

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Speaker 3: Is it that they don't want to solve it?

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Speaker 6: Do you think that? I mean, I'm also just hypothesizing it.

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Speaker 1: It also could be that they don't even have it anymore,

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Speaker 1: or they're just that incompetent, or they suck.

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Speaker 6: I'd believe those things too, is it.

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Speaker 1: They're a version of this where you know early on

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Speaker 1: and you know this better than anybody because you experienced it.

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Speaker 1: But you know it's me reading through all that boys,

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Speaker 1: seeing the news and growing up, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: as an adult looking back on this case, you know,

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Speaker 1: people blamed you guys, you know, for.

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Speaker 4: This, right, and as did the police as of the police. Right.

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Speaker 6: So I'm wondering if there is a.

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Speaker 1: Part of this where they want to maintain control of

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Speaker 1: it because they don't want to be wrong.

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Speaker 6: Again, I'm not.

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Speaker 4: It's find an excuse, but like, no, that's very popish, meaning.

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Speaker 6: That they're not going to want to They're not going

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Speaker 6: to strike out twice. Right.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, I've I've met recently. They've gone through

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Speaker 4: several police chiefs, and they've always had poor leadersh In

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Speaker 4: my opinion, they did bring in well it so, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and they very poor leadership. Uh, they brought in someone

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Speaker 4: from the outside, which is a good thing. About four

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Speaker 4: years ago I met with her. Uh, she'd been in

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Speaker 4: that position after a couple of years, and I said, look,

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Speaker 4: you didn't cause this mess. And I feel badly about

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Speaker 4: criticizing the Boulder Police, but until I see progress or

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Speaker 4: something different, I have no other basis to comment someone.

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Speaker 6: I got to blame somebody.

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Speaker 4: And know you want to do the right things. You

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Speaker 4: have nothing but praise for me.

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Speaker 3: But she did nothing.

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Speaker 4: But she did nothing, and then she quit and took

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Speaker 4: another job, and then the news and.

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Speaker 3: Didn't tell you, pardon and didn't tell you after.

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Speaker 4: She talked to her literally like on a Friday, and

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Speaker 4: she gave me her cell number. If anything you need

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Speaker 4: call me Saturday. She was gone, Thank thanks for telling me.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that sums up a lot. How many years has

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Speaker 6: it been now?

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Speaker 4: It will be twenty eight in December? Well this year, yeah,

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Speaker 4: twenty years December.

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Speaker 1: Twenty eight years later, you're here at Crime con from

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Speaker 1: a large audience for the second time today.

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Speaker 6: What do you want to achieve and accomplish today?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, we've engaged in the media. If when

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Speaker 4: we were allowed to, our attorneys wouldn't let us talk

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Speaker 4: to the media. For here.

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Speaker 1: We did a lot back in the nineties, like just

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Speaker 1: at first or just at a certain point, because there's.

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Speaker 4: We Finally they said okay, they don't defense attorneys want

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Speaker 4: to lock you in a closet.

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Speaker 1: And was that annoying, just being like I want to, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: say something, but don't say anything.

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Speaker 4: And they said, look, we don't know how to practice

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Speaker 4: law in the court of public opinion. Yeah, right, so

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Speaker 4: we can't go out and defend you in the media.

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Speaker 4: We don't have to do that. There's no rules, no

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Speaker 4: laws of evidence anything. We were prepared to defend you

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Speaker 4: properly in a court.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So anyway, two years later they gave us the okay,

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Speaker 4: begretchlingly to do a meetia interview and we actually interviewed, uh,

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Speaker 4: the interviewers because we only wanted to do one. We

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Speaker 4: ended up going with Barbara Walters, who was really a fine,

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Speaker 4: fine person and took very sincere interest in us in

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Speaker 4: the case. And I just I just really was impressive.

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Speaker 6: Actually everything watched that one.

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Speaker 1: You were trying to pick the best person who wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to have some gotcha moment work.

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Speaker 4: And that just somebody that felt we felt comfortable with

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Speaker 4: and that was interested in you know. Barbara was great.

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Speaker 4: She took us out for dinner, we sat and talked,

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Speaker 4: and in fact it was on the interview the O

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Speaker 4: there are five. Of course, she asked us about the

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Speaker 4: case and I said, well, there are five things that

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Speaker 4: were evidentiary that we know of, and uh I told

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Speaker 4: her what the five were, one of which was a

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Speaker 4: poem print that was unidentified.

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Speaker 6: Where was that a?

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Speaker 4: It was on the door into the room where we

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Speaker 4: found John main A. And Barbara knew the five because

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Speaker 4: I had told her earlier the night before, and she

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Speaker 4: asked me on camera and I could remember four of them.

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Speaker 4: I remember the fifth and she went like this below

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Speaker 4: the camera and.

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Speaker 6: You're like, that's what happens. You're under pressure.

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Speaker 4: So she was she was a really a neat person.

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Speaker 1: After the police were called and then you know, Boulder

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Speaker 1: police come into your house.

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Speaker 6: Remember that, I mean everything I've read and heard, and

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Speaker 6: it's even statements made by you and Patthy and everyone else.

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Speaker 6: It's got a ship showing there like it was.

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Speaker 4: How would you describe it, Well, that's a good way

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Speaker 4: to describe that. Good car rds out of my mouth.

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Speaker 4: They didn't know they're doing and that that they don't

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Speaker 4: have to They don't have to deal with that every day.

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Speaker 4: Back then they did like what.

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Speaker 6: Were they doing, Well.

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Speaker 4: They were making coffee and wiping up the county, right.

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Speaker 7: There were seventeen people that were friends of the of

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Speaker 7: the ramsay. All the cops had gone except for one at.

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Speaker 1: What point in the morning?

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Speaker 7: Okay, so and her body was found at one o'clock

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Speaker 7: not yeah, not before that there was.

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Speaker 4: I guess well. You know the chief of police later

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Speaker 4: was criticized for how they handled the crimes scene. He said, oh,

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Speaker 4: we thought it was a kidnapping. We didn't consider it

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Speaker 4: a crime scene.

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean it's like, okay, well, okay, you were

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Speaker 6: the whole house.

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Speaker 4: But that was the level of competence we're doing. And

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Speaker 4: I think what really kicked it off.

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Speaker 6: Was the.

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Speaker 4: Lady detective there, who later went on national TV and said, oh,

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Speaker 4: I knew John was killed because they saw his eyes.

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Speaker 6: This is a bull her police.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she saw, and she grabbed her we could put

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Speaker 4: to use.

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Speaker 3: She grabbed her gun because she was afraid.

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Speaker 4: He left short work. I mean she wasn't. But she

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Speaker 4: wrote up a report and described some actions she saw

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Speaker 4: that she observed us doing, one of which was John

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Speaker 4: was casually going through the mail while he's waiting for

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Speaker 4: the call from the kidnapper. I was looking for another

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Speaker 4: communication from the kidnapper and this pile of envelopes that

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Speaker 4: had come through our front door.

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Speaker 1: And what he's supposed to do is sit there and

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Speaker 1: stare at the wall, said, but I was looking.

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Speaker 4: For another Is there another communication that it was sent

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Speaker 4: to us? Yes?

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Speaker 5: It was.

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Speaker 6: It was a ransom, right, I mean at.

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Speaker 4: That yeah, we had the ransom. Mel But I saw

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Speaker 4: this pile of envelopes that had come through our dorse

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Speaker 4: mail spot and I was going through. Was there anything

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Speaker 4: else in there? She interpreted, I was just casually going through.

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Speaker 6: The bizarre bi of hers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And then the other one was the note said

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Speaker 4: we would be called at ten o'clock tomorrow. Well, I

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Speaker 4: didn't know tomorrow was the day we were in or

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Speaker 4: was it tomorrow the next day? And so when ten

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Speaker 4: o'clock came that day, I was well, okay, I gotta

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Speaker 4: wait till tomorrow. I was going to be excruciating. But

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Speaker 4: that's the way it is. She said in a report,

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Speaker 4: was very bizarre that John didn't go crazy when ten

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Speaker 4: o'clock came and you get the call. Well, I wasn't

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Speaker 4: necessarily expecting it that day.

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Speaker 6: Because you were thinking, well, maybe tomorrow then, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, I said tomorrow. I didn't know if tomorrow was

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Speaker 4: the day we're in, or you know, was it tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: So she reported that, well, I just didn't act right

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Speaker 4: when when ten o'clock came and went. So anybody reading

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Speaker 4: that report would say, well, yeah, that that's a very

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Speaker 4: strange action acts.

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Speaker 1: They started taking these little plucking these little things out

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Speaker 1: and kind of making misinterpreted pictures, was reported.

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Speaker 4: And so the whole police case, we were told by

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Speaker 4: the DA several years later, was that we didn't act

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Speaker 4: right that morning.

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Speaker 1: How does how is one supposed to act?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, I'd lost my oldest daughter, Beth in a

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Speaker 4: car accident. And I gotten a call from my brother

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Speaker 4: in the afternoon that Beth was killed in a car accident.

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Speaker 4: And it was of course devastating, shocking, But there's nothing

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Speaker 4: I could do. I couldn't couldn't go to her aid,

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Speaker 4: I couldn't get her to the best doctors. I couldn't

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Speaker 4: help her. It was over with John Mana that morning.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't over. She was kidnapped. I was going to

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Speaker 4: get her back.

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Speaker 6: So You're like, where is she bring her back?

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Speaker 4: Because but I've got to do whatever I can do

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Speaker 4: to get her back, whatever I can do, And I

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Speaker 4: assumed the police knew what they were doing. I should

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Speaker 4: have been more aggressive in what we called friends and

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Speaker 4: but of course we found out later that the police

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Speaker 4: didn't know.

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Speaker 6: What to do.

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Speaker 4: They went to the sheriff's office and got a book

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Speaker 4: on how to deal with kidnappings. But that morning I

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Speaker 4: had to keep my head and be on my game

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Speaker 4: and get my daughter back. Yeah, we arranged for the

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Speaker 4: ransom money. A friend of mine was my banker, and

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Speaker 4: he got me a credit limit on my visa card

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Speaker 4: of one hundred and twenty thousand dollars, so I can, wow,

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Speaker 4: get the cash.

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Speaker 1: What's it like making a call like that?

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Speaker 6: Is he like?

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Speaker 1: What that sounds?

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Speaker 4: Well, he was a very close friend. He immediately flew out,

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Speaker 4: one of the first persons that came out to my

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Speaker 4: Boulder to help. And I remember questioning the detective that

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Speaker 4: was there, so, how many people are on this case

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Speaker 4: right now? He said, well, we're all on vacation and

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Speaker 4: it's just me and and he said, oh, that's not right.

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Speaker 6: He was he's a real.

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Speaker 4: You know shoo, yeah, a really aggressive guy anyway, But

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Speaker 4: so we had their ransom money teed up and just

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Speaker 4: trying to my witch about me.

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Speaker 1: So there's so many things about this case that I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think obviously Boulder police screwed this case up because

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Speaker 1: they didn't solve it. That's just plain and simple. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you've been able to point out plenty of

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Speaker 1: examples of incompetence and things that even you know are

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Speaker 1: seemingly beyond that. And so I see all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: I see all these circumstances and scenarios, theories. I see

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Speaker 1: this DNA DNA here, DNA.

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Speaker 6: There, and it's just it's so much going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so in my head as an investigator journalist,

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Speaker 1: I always go back to the ransom note because I

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Speaker 1: feel like, no matter what we end up finding, it

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Speaker 1: has that has to end up explaining the ransom note,

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Speaker 1: or that explains the ransom note. And I'm just curious

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Speaker 1: for you, like, how many times have you read that note?

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Speaker 4: Well, of course you read it that morning, of course.

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Speaker 4: And we had to write it, like the handwriting Samples

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Speaker 4: wrote with the right hand, wrote over their left hand, which.

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Speaker 6: Is painful, bizarre, it's horrible.

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Speaker 4: I have to write that horrible note early on, and

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Speaker 4: this was in days of job and as loss.

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Speaker 6: What do you think when you read that?

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Speaker 1: Like, I mean, like it.

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Speaker 6: Was just shocking.

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Speaker 4: I mean, uh, you don't. I mean it's a horrible feeling.

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Speaker 4: It's like and I tell peoples like when you have

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Speaker 4: a young child, you're in a supermarket or shopping center

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Speaker 4: and they're gone, all of a sudden, they've disappeared behind

396
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Speaker 4: a colt rack or something. It's this horrible feeling or stomach,

397
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Speaker 4: where's my child? And you know that happened, lasts for

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Speaker 4: a moment, and then your child comes out from behind

399
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 4: hiding and the colt rack or something, and thank god,

400
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 4: that's the feeling we had that morning. It was and

401
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 4: it was constant, and you know, where's my child? It's

402
00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 4: cold outside, it's dark, and I for part of the morning.

403
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Speaker 4: We'll get her back. We're going to get her back.

404
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 4: And we were supposed to go on a family trip

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Speaker 4: that morning to meet my older kids, and that was

406
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 4: of course canceled or put off. But I ken't think

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Speaker 4: we're going to make that. Then I finally said, no,

408
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 4: we're not going to make it. Be realistic here. Yeah,

409
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 4: but we're still hopeful. But I was getting discouraged obviously

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Speaker 4: the more time went on.

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Speaker 1: And for the sake of just context for you guys,

412
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Speaker 1: since we didn't have a screen for this setup that

413
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Speaker 1: would work, I posted on my Instagram story like a

414
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: typed out version like this legible of the ransom note

415
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: that I may refer to some things on so if

416
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: you want to look out of yourself and follow along,

417
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: you can. That's the only thing on my story right now.

418
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 1: Just go to at Payne, Lindsay and me. It's small,

419
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: but you can see what I'm talking about. Because I

420
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: don't think y'all can read this, but I'm just thinking

421
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: about the note and it says mister Ramsey listening carefully,

422
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: and then and further down it mentions you know your name,

423
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: so they this person is addressing you John Ramsey, right,

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00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: meaning that they knew who you are. Now there's you know,

425
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: presumably several ways that they could find that out.

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Speaker 6: But what does that tell you? Because it's addressed to

427
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Speaker 6: you and you're like, okay, who is this?

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00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 4: You know you don't think about that at the moment.

429
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 6: Surely, right, But twenty years later you're like.

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Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, well you know, we got to know John Douglas,

431
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 4: who's here.

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Speaker 6: The real mind hunter?

433
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Speaker 7: Right?

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Speaker 1: Guy's awesome?

435
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, profileer really amazing fellow. But he looked at everything

436
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 4: and said he told us two things when he said,

437
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 4: if you and he came to Atlanta to our home

438
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 4: for a few days, uh he And he said after

439
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 4: he had visited us, he said, if you can act

440
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 4: the way you act now and had done this, you're

441
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 4: the most diabolical criminals that ever walked the planet.

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00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 6: He's like, then you're a real good way a lot

443
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 6: of people.

444
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 4: But he also said, I think this was aimed at you, John.

445
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 4: Somebody is either extremely angry with you or extremely jealous.

446
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 4: And I said, oh, man, I can't imagine I've made

447
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 4: anybody angry like that.

448
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 6: Is that what you think it was?

449
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 4: I subscribe to that theory, I do.

450
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: So you need to get somebody that knew you, and

451
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: you meaning that you knew that.

452
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 4: He said, this wasn't about your daughter, This was focused

453
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 4: at you to hurt you. And yes, yeah, and I

454
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 4: think he's right.

455
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 6: Do you think that you would in turn also know

456
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 6: this person?

457
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 4: But well, he said you may not. You may not

458
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 4: know him. You know, we've been putting the paper that

459
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks before we'd achieved a sales goal,

460
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 4: and our marketing person wanted to put it in the papers.

461
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 4: I okay, and that was what it was in the

462
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 4: paper with my picture probably really bad. I had a

463
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 4: bad gut feeling when she wanted to do that. Oh yes,

464
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 4: I don't think we need to do that, but I thought, well,

465
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 4: their employees should be proud of their achievements, and so

466
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 4: we did it. That was not a good thing to do.

467
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 4: My focus some jealousy or anger at me, I don't know,

468
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 4: but I think I really do subscribe to that based

469
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 4: on the.

470
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: Note that there was somebody who knew you, yeah, and

471
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: someone that you probably it.

472
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 4: May know, but they may very angry, were very jealous

473
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 4: of me, and this was to hurt me. Lou Smidt,

474
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 4: the experienced detective that worked on this case, you know,

475
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 4: wonderful man, said, well, this is a kidnapping gone wrong.

476
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 4: And I always thought there were conflicting theories.

477
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 6: Is that how you feel about it?

478
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: That the attempt truly was supposed to be a kidnapping

479
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: and then that went wrong.

480
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 4: That's what Lou felt. He said, Look, what do you feel? Well,

481
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 4: I think, well, I always thought those are conflicting theories.

482
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 4: They are a little bit right, like point, well, they're

483
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 4: really not.

484
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 6: Because so in your gut though, like well, I.

485
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 4: Was comforted by realizing that those are not conflicting theories.

486
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 4: They could be they could be together together. Somebody was

487
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 4: angry in what way you mean? Well, it could be

488
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 4: somebody that was angry or jealous of me and then

489
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 4: wanted to kidnap my daughter. Sure that went wrong, and

490
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 4: there's apparently, Lou, where there's indications that that's was an

491
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 4: attempt to get a really attempt at kidnapping. So it's

492
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 4: comforting to think, yeah, these hear, these two world class

493
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 4: people that have different theories. Well, they're really not.

494
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: Different kind of they can make a bigger picture tied together.

495
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: So do you lean more into the idea that somebody

496
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: was out to get you and kidnapped your daughter for

497
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: a real rapsom or that it was a sexual predator

498
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: of some sort that was random.

499
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 4: No, I don't think it was random. I think it

500
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 4: was somebody that had been observing us, knew our house.

501
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: I wasn't random, like they were planning this out a way.

502
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. You know the one hundred and eighteen thousand, which

503
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 4: is the amount asked for a ransom, Well that's a bizarre.

504
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: Number, isn't that not a million bonus number?

505
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 6: Close to it?

506
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 4: Well, it turned out it was my annual bonus which

507
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 4: was on my all of my paycheck stubs, so for

508
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 4: a year, every two weeks, And we weren't careful with

509
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 4: where we laid those.

510
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: So how could someone have like you say that someone

511
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: could have got that from the trash or something, or like,

512
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: how could one.

513
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 4: Well say, if they'd been in our house and gone

514
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 4: through our house, they'd have seen it.

515
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 6: Like even when they were in the house that night,

516
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 6: you mean potentially or.

517
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 4: Potentially Yeah, I mean, we weren't careful with papers and

518
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 4: stuff like.

519
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, it could be found.

520
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 4: Right, they weren't. They weren't somebody that worked.

521
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 3: Somebody wanted I just wandered around.

522
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's to me the most logical explanation of

523
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 4: what that number was. It it had some meeting to

524
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 4: the killer, right, some message.

525
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: Because it's too It's just means it makes a great,

526
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: big number that's available as a ransom.

527
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 4: Right, I mean, why not a million they don't want?

528
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, this means I know, joll could get this to me.

529
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 6: So they clearly had that.

530
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I was head of this company and our

531
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 4: sales had achieved a billion dollars, which in are we

532
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 4: were like a grocery store. You got to sell a

533
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 4: lot of stuff to make a little money. And so

534
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 4: we were still small in our niche of the industry,

535
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 4: but we were proud of that. And and but I

536
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: was an employee. I was lockheeded about the company years ago.

537
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 4: And I was a Lockheed employee. I wasn't it millionaire

538
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 4: you worked for?

539
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, my dad retired.

540
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 6: Was a great company, great five years.

541
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, they really treated us wonderful when this happened. But

542
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 4: it was just it was a barner. Somebody pointed out too.

543
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 4: In fact, our minister that said, okay, well one eighteen

544
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 4: is the middle the middle. Uh, right in the middle

545
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 4: of the Bible.

546
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 6: What does that mean?

547
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know, but how many pages like that's well,

548
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 4: it's right in the middle Bible. And in the Psalm

549
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 4: it has a phrase that says, uh saved by the

550
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 4: Cornerstone SPTC.

551
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 6: Okay, that's that's.

552
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 7: There.

553
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 6: Says yeah, well this BTC.

554
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 4: Well nobody, what.

555
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 6: Does this acronym mean?

556
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 4: Right?

557
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 6: Does it mean anything? Or is it well that.

558
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 4: We're made some sense? Well, okay, maybe this was a

559
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 4: bizarre way to.

560
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: Show this that that makes it sound like super calculated, right, yeah, no.

561
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 4: It was question.

562
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: And so my question then becomes, which is why this

563
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: case is so frustrating, is that if it was a

564
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: very calculated kidnapper killer or kidnapping gone wrong that's cased

565
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: the house and got all this information, why on earth

566
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: did they spend twenty minutes writing that note in the

567
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: house when they could have just came with that note ready.

568
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 7: Because they because they did not necessarily write it in

569
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 7: the house.

570
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 3: There were several tablets that Patsy used.

571
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 6: Uh huh.

572
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 7: It was written on one of the tablets. It could

573
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 7: have been taken out of the house. She never would

574
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 7: have known it, and he could have written it them.

575
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: So you're you're saying that it's possible that this person

576
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: took this out of the house the.

577
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 4: Tablet, wrote it and brought it back in.

578
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 6: Well, I think what reason, though, Why would they do that?

579
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: Take their time when we were told My feeling is

580
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 4: this person was in the house when we left to

581
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 4: go out for dinner. Okay, it was hiding when we

582
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 4: got home. Interesting, in that three hours, sat and wrote

583
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 4: a note. Interesting, we were told again I think by

584
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 4: John Douglas that because the police speculated when we wrote

585
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 4: the note to cover up.

586
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, that's that's what people we'll say.

587
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 4: Some people said, even though it's diabolical, criminal could not

588
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: have written that note after committee or the two wired

589
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 4: going crazy, I don't know. But he said, yeah, this

590
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: was written before, written before, So yeah, and I think

591
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 4: that's right.

592
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that makes that would make more sense

593
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: because if if you killed anybody in the house, I

594
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: feel like dancing has to get the hell out of there,

595
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: not spend twenty minutes looking for a pen and pad

596
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: in the kitchen or whatever. Right, So do you think

597
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: that the note was written in the house.

598
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 4: I believe that.

599
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 6: But okay, do you think it was written before she

600
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 6: was murdered?

601
00:30:58,600 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely?

602
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 6: And that have been while you were at dinner that

603
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 6: night at the Christmas party, or before the murder happened.

604
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: Oh I think I'm I again subscribe to John Douglas's.

605
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 6: Like he was hanging in there already.

606
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 4: He was there, he was killing time write in the note.

607
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 4: In fact, there are several practice notes. Apparently your practice.

608
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 6: Either was something about like an in print or something.

609
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: Right, Well, there was a greeting.

610
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: Didn't say mister and missus ramsay, and there was John

611
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: And so what did I tell you about the psychology

612
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: of the person who was writing that note? Why did

613
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: they change it from both parents?

614
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 6: Suggest you?

615
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 4: Well, again, John Douglas felt it was What do you

616
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 4: think I subscribed to his theory? I think that's that's

617
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 4: quite possible. It's a sobering thing to have to Yeah,

618
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 4: I get stapped, but.

619
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 6: That night, yeah, the Christmas party.

620
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: Just walk me through because I don't Honestly, these parts

621
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: are muddy online and I don't want to just go off.

622
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: That's from your own recollection. I know it's been forever.

623
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: But you're at this Christmas party, you leave, come out

624
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: of the house. Just walk me through leaving the party

625
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: and then going to sleep.

626
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 4: That timeline, well, it was we left the our friend's

627
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 4: house with the kids. I think it was like nine

628
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 4: thirty something like that. We were leaving early the next morning.

629
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 4: John and a had fallen asleep in the car and

630
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 4: it was a fairly short drive that she was tired

631
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 4: in all a long, big day and we stopped at

632
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 4: one friend's house and drop off for Christmas present and

633
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 4: then went home. I carried John Benet upstairs.

634
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: She was sound asleep, which which it was a three

635
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: story house right.

636
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 4: Well, it was three two stories and then there was

637
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 4: like a attic that had been converted.

638
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: Did she sleep on second and you guys slept on

639
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: the Yeah, got you, but there you took her. Or

640
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: where's the front door at.

641
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 4: It's it's on the first front, well on the back right, Yeah,

642
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 4: but no, it's it's the way your bedroom house. Birk's

643
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 4: bedroom was in the front of the house. The door

644
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 4: was there, and then John man As was in.

645
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 6: The back on the same floor as the front door.

646
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 4: No front door is in the first.

647
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 6: Floor, okay, And where's her room up or down?

648
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 4: Up one floor?

649
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: And then where's your.

650
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: Room at one more level?

651
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 6: I got you, okay, so you you take her up

652
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 6: and put it a bed.

653
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 4: I did well. I put on the bed and Patchy

654
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 4: came in and changed.

655
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 6: Then you love to go to your room?

656
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 4: Yeah okay, Well no, actually didn't. Immediately Burke wanted to

657
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 4: play with his toys. I don't remember what they were,

658
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 4: but just we sat there and slay for we got

659
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 4: it to bed.

660
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: We got to get it loud and yeah, my dad

661
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: used to duct tape my toys.

662
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 6: They would make less noise and hid my pretty cruel.

663
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 4: So yeah, we played with his toys for just a

664
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 4: few minutes. Now we got to go to bed. So

665
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 4: we got him to bed, and then Patchy and I

666
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 4: went to bed.

667
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: Did you go to sleep first or you fall asleep

668
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: at the same time?

669
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't remember. Yeah, I don't remember. We were

670
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 4: both tired. I mean, it's been a long Monday.

671
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: But it's also like holidays, exhausting already. Yeah, So tell

672
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: me about the first thing you remember when.

673
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 6: You do wake up?

674
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 4: Well, I got up and was.

675
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 6: On your own or was you woken up?

676
00:34:59,080 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: Uh?

677
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 4: I don't remember. I don't know if we had the

678
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 4: alarm set or not, but anyway, you woke up with

679
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 4: you or no, she was maybe she was out and about.

680
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 4: We had two different bathrooms that we kind of split

681
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,919
Speaker 4: just for civility.

682
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: And I was more convenient.

683
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so I was shaving and I heard Patsy scream,

684
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 4: and as it was I knew something was wrong. This

685
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 4: is not just I found the ransom note and so

686
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: I ran down and and uh, she showed me the note,

687
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 4: but I and I spread it out on the floor

688
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 4: to try to absorb what it was saying three pages,

689
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,479
Speaker 4: and pretty immediately said she was standing by the phone

690
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 4: to call police, call the police. And so she picked

691
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 4: up the phone and called the police. And uh, of

692
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 4: course the police. You're a man, you should have called

693
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 4: the police. Why why did you ask your wife to

694
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: do that? That's I don't know. She was standing by

695
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 4: the phone and I was trying to read the ransom note.

696
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 4: But anyway, she called the police and then they came

697
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 4: fairly quickly, and the police officer came was just a

698
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 4: patrol man that was on duty. And so do you

699
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 4: think she ran away? And I said no, she was

700
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: a six year old child. She wouldn't have run away,

701
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 4: and I showed him the ransom note. Then he called in.

702
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 4: I guess that's when Linda aren't showed up. The one

703
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 4: detective that was on duty that morning, because everybody else

704
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 4: is Christmas. Yeah. I was told that one of the

705
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 4: police officers was there that morning. They were several for

706
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 4: a while. Asked the chief of detectives, and this was heresay.

707
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 4: I don't know if it's you may know more than

708
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 4: I do. Paul is very plugged in as an investigative journalist.

709
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 4: I was told that one of the police officers called

710
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 4: the chief of detection, I think there's evidence of an intruder.

711
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 4: Could I get dogs to the crime scene? He said, no,

712
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 4: don't do that.

713
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 6: Well, that was a missed opportunity.

714
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 4: That well, that really was true. It was a huge

715
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 4: missed opportunity.

716
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: So running with the theory that it was someone who

717
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: knew enough about you, who could be a stranger, but

718
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: cased the house and just learned enough about you to

719
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: know your name, know you had a daughter, and know

720
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: you had an amount of money that's pretty damn close

721
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: to what you were making in that bonus.

722
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: Right, right, So we're.

723
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: Going with that, and they wrote the note, and they

724
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: wrote the note first, right, and then they go down

725
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: to kidnap John Bennet and somehow that goes wrong? Is

726
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: that what we're thinking? I think in that series of events?

727
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: Is that what you would say maybe? Or what happened?

728
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 6: And why would they move her body to some other

729
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 6: r Yeah?

730
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 4: That's well, that's honest.

731
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: You just want to just your thoughts because like I

732
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: can't make sense of it either.

733
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 4: Oh, it doesn't make sense.

734
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, but like the fact your brain on this for

735
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 6: was obviously crazy. Why would they do that? Why not

736
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 6: just get out of there?

737
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 4: I don't know, you know what I mean? She was

738
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 4: I'm told, sadly sexually assaulted, and so that doesn't really

739
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 4: fit the kidnapping.

740
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 6: That's what. Yeah.

741
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: So it's like some things going don't go and I

742
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 1: don't know even you, Paul, like what do you make

743
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: of sort of the conflicting evidence and maybe some evidence

744
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: I'm talking about doesn't mean anything, and like we're overthinking it.

745
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 6: But that doesn't jib all the time, right, The killer.

746
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 7: Doesn't make sense, The police actions don't make sense, nothing

747
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 7: is logical, nothing makes sense about.

748
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 6: This, But they were but the killer was smart enough to.

749
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: Get in and out of there and not get caught

750
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: know who you were, and you do not know who

751
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: who he was, and he hasn't been he or she

752
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: has not been caught till today.

753
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 6: So maybe that's complete.

754
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: Dumb luck so or but I don't know if that's

755
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: necessarily true.

756
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 6: Is it like a is it a.

757
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 1: Dumb person that got lucky or is it a calculated killer?

758
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 6: Oh?

759
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 4: I think it was calculated for sure.

760
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: And then therefore why move her body from her room

761
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: to what.

762
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 4: Was it like a cellar basement? Yes?

763
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 6: Like why even waste the time?

764
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: Why not get out of there because it was hard

765
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: to get out in the first place, to that little window?

766
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 6: Right? Like, what what do you think about that part

767
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 6: of it?

768
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know. I mean one of the things

769
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: that came up early on was there were two marks

770
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 4: on her in two different locations which were speculated to

771
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 4: be stun gun marks.

772
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 6: Where were those?

773
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 4: Well, one was on her cheek and one was lower

774
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 4: back or back?

775
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 6: And uh, do you suspect that may have been used?

776
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 4: And well, we lou Smidt did some testing on a

777
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 4: pig stun gun and he said, sure are identical. And

778
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 4: he got in trouble with peta of course.

779
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 6: But well you don't shut the tall, don't sweet about it.

780
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, But anyway, but he said, when we did that,

781
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 4: at first there it didn't surface it. He thought, man,

782
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: this wasn't right. And then these marks came just came

783
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 4: to light.

784
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 6: You know.

785
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 4: He said, bingo, that's exactly the same. So he was

786
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 4: convinced the stun gun was us. This doctor Dilberson, who

787
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 4: was a forensic pathologist in Colorado Springs, happened to be

788
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 4: an expert in sun gun marks. Wow for some very

789
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 4: niche yeah, and he looked at it. We went to

790
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 4: him and said what do you think? Yeah, and he

791
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 4: looked at it and studied and said, with ninety nine

792
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 4: percent medical certainty, these are gun he was he was, yeah,

793
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 4: he was convinced for medical certainty these are sun marks.

794
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: Now that's probably likely.

795
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 4: I was asked by our attorneys, would you allow us

796
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 4: to exume John may and A's body to absolutely one

797
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 4: per verify those stun gun marks. Studies couldn't do it.

798
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:36,479
Speaker 6: Yeah.

799
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 4: John Maya was at rest, he was at peace.

800
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: When did they ask you that?

801
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,479
Speaker 4: Oh it was within months. Okay, you know this because

802
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 4: the stunt gun became very interesting because.

803
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they would need Yeah, yeah, you weren't of

804
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 6: course reading her.

805
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 4: Why in the world do we use a stunt gun. Yeah,

806
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 4: it's just I mean, their whole theory just fell apart immediately.

807
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is like is like items, and

808
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: there's there's DNA and quite a bit of it, to

809
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: be honest, it seems like, well there's an under nails

810
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: and on clothing, right, and it hasn't matched anybody that

811
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 1: we know of yet. So do you think that one

812
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 1: of those DNA samples is.

813
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,439
Speaker 6: The killer lou does?

814
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 4: I asked, do you think that though? Do I I

815
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 4: don't know enough about DNA, but like.

816
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 6: But presumably if they're on her body.

817
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean it's you know, when it was

818
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 4: it was discovery, it was immediately, it was immediately reported

819
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 4: in early January by the lab that did the testing originally,

820
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, yeah, ninety seven. Back to the police,

821
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 4: we've we've identified this DNA sample unidentified male DNA does

822
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 4: not match anyone in the family, you guys yet, John

823
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 4: and Berkricks included. And that was a big problem for

824
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 4: the police because.

825
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 6: They didn't like that because their theories now kind of.

826
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 4: Their theories so they kept a secret, so they tried

827
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 4: very hard for a long time to explain it away

828
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 4: and find a hannocent explanation.

829
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 7: It was a.

830
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 4: Friend of John Benney's that was over there than the

831
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 4: night before or the day before. You know, I've got

832
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 4: a DNA or under our clothes. He couldn't. I mean,

833
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 4: it was they failed it trying to explain it away.

834
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: Would Why do you think that there was no DNA

835
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: or fingerprints on the note?

836
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 4: If that was, I don't think it was ever checked.

837
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 3: It wasn't. The note was never checked for DNA.

838
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 4: I mean example, for the police, it wasn't.

839
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 6: I mean I read that. I mean Patsy's were on

840
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 6: their because you picked up and found it.

841
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, we we like as well.

842
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 6: Whether there was no DNA on the note, we don't know.

843
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 4: It was never looked for.

844
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 3: Oh, never tested for DNA?

845
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 6: Who didn't never test?

846
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 3: Older police? Okay, did not have it tested.

847
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 6: Do they still have it?

848
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 7: Yeah?

849
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: Well, to me, that would be the biggest thing to

850
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: harp on is test the note because there's DNA on

851
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: her person, right, and if we're running with the theory

852
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: that obviously it makes more sense for an intruder to

853
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: write the note. First, it makes no sense that they

854
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: would write that with gloves then take off the gloves.

855
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 4: So right, there was lots of things it should have

856
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 4: been looked at for evidence.

857
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, all going back to you name, it just missteps.

858
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 7: And we put together a list of crime scene evidence

859
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 7: that had not been tested and we found sixteen items.

860
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 7: So John gave that to the governor. The governor gave

861
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 7: that to Boulder Police, who did not have a list

862
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 7: of crime scene evidence that had not been tested for DNA,

863
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 7: and they haven't done anything with it.

864
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: They have not said.

865
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: Allow why they wouldn't have tested the note because it

866
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: seemed like they were so hard out to get you

867
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: guys in the first place, making you right samples left, right,

868
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: left hand, right end. That's going to be exhausting and

869
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 1: annoying and frustrating. Wouldn't they just test it and put

870
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: it to rest? If it's somehow I don't know, like.

871
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 4: You know, I can't explain the action because that's odd.

872
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: It's almost contradictory behavior, which is so annoying.

873
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: What if they didn't want to know?

874
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: Right, but like that'd be so early on to want

875
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: I mean, why would they want it to be you

876
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: that early in the stages. Had they already like said

877
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: enough publicly that they wanted to cover their ass or what?

878
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 7: When the word came in to the meeting outside of

879
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 7: the Ramsay home that jo Many's body had been found,

880
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 7: somebody in the meeting told me that one detective said

881
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 7: to another detective, not homicide detectives, narcotic detectives who did

882
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 7: not have the training. One of them said to the other,

883
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 7: I knew what they killed her. So they decided that soon.

884
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 7: They decided immediately that it was a Ramsay so they

885
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 7: set out to prove it.

886
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: It's that diamolical, really, you know.

887
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 4: I And to this day I don't know who it was.

888
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 4: But I'd gotten an urgent message through our friends that

889
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 4: were house we were staying at. You're one of your

890
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: fellows you worked with, needed to talk to you immediately.

891
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 6: When was this this.

892
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 3: Friday? That Friday?

893
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 4: Was that the twenty sixth, twenty like.

894
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 6: It could be potentially important. So what happened?

895
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 4: Well, so I took the call, and I was not

896
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 4: in any shape to take a call.

897
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 6: I can't imagine.

898
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but I talked. He was a guy that

899
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 4: worked with me, and I was a friend, and he said,

900
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 4: I was called by someone inside the system and told

901
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 4: to get you this message. And the message is tell

902
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 4: John to get the best defense attorney he can get

903
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 4: his hands on me because they think he killed his daughter.

904
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: Talk about like where you worked.

905
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 4: Yes, it's inside the system. I assumed he was.

906
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 1: Talking about you. So the system for the police tipped

907
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: you off like they're going to come for.

908
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 4: You, right, and so I I that was like shocking,

909
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 4: But at that point it didn't matter whatever. And so

910
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 4: that was the day after that they already had concluded.

911
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: They were quick to jump to that concluded.

912
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 4: Before evidence was immediately they also called in the group

913
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 4: that was skilled in preparing a case to present to

914
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 4: a jury. Yes you know, yeahah with the picture and

915
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 4: the triagrams and stuff. And they went and they told

916
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 4: us this. Later, they said, the police call us and

917
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 4: said I want you to prepare for case to go

918
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 4: to court, present this, and so tell us what the

919
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 4: other and it says, well, we can't. We're not going

920
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 4: to discuss that. And they said we can't prepare a

921
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 4: presentation if you don't tell us the evidence. And they left.

922
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 4: They said we could deal with that, but say, we're

923
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 4: so convinced that the next day, literally that day. Probably

924
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 4: that it was the parents, always parents. The problem with that,

925
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 4: you know, I've researched it a little bit, and sadly,

926
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 4: fifty six percent of the time in our country, the

927
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 4: homicide of a child is a parent. However, you got

928
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 4: to cut at one more level. In virtually all those cases,

929
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 4: there's a long history of problems in that family. The

930
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 4: neighbors know about it, the police know about it, the

931
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 4: schools know about it. It doesn't just happen out of

932
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 4: the blue.

933
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: That was not happening in the Ramsay house, No.

934
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 4: Not at all. We had. In fact, our pediatrician was testified,

935
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 4: he said, and we were criticized for taking John Benet

936
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 4: to the doctor a lot. She had allergies and stuff,

937
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 4: and you know, we have good health plan. If you're sick,

938
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 4: we go to the doctor, real simple, right, And so

939
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 4: we knew him pretty well. And he said, I never

940
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 4: saw anything but a loving family.

941
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: Why why don't you think that the the killer took

942
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: went back upstairs and took the note back if it

943
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: was a botched kidnapping it because when the killer left,

944
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: it clearly was no longer kidnapping, because that that that

945
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: there was there wasn't a kid that boy, So why

946
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: not just take that note away?

947
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 3: Panic?

948
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: But they spent a long time writing it, and there

949
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: potentially they've been in the house for a while. Why

950
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: not just take it one of the doors. It's like,

951
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not John Douglas. You know, he's he's

952
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: the best at this, But I try to put myself

953
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: and try to analyze the psychology of a person who

954
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: would do this, and you know, it's it's when I

955
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 1: found it's if not, it's one of the longest ransom

956
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: notes in history, which is like, I don't even know

957
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: what that means.

958
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 4: And I was told if we get a sample of

959
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 4: a writing, we got so much compared against we can

960
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 4: say who wrote the note.

961
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 6: It's it's just so much information and there was no

962
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 6: kidnapping at the end of the day.

963
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: No, you're right, So what does that tell you?

964
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 4: Guys, Well, it doesn't tell me anything. This is a

965
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 4: very you know, lack of a better word, subhuman person

966
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 4: like just I.

967
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 1: Mean just I mean obviously they're really about Yes, I mean.

968
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 4: I think I crazy, but smart, Well yeah, those aren't exclusive,

969
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 4: but so smart.

970
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: Because they were in there dinking around. I feel like

971
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: for a long time. Yeah, that's pretty stupid, I feel like.

972
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 7: But not if you had the incompetence of the investigators,

973
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 7: this should have been solved the first week.

974
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 6: Oh, you absolutely should have.

975
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 4: Yes, you know, there's a door in the basement a

976
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 4: little This house had an elevator and at one time

977
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 4: the people we bought it from were elderly and they

978
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 4: needed an elevator, and then they put this one person

979
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 4: elevator that took about thirty minutes to get up, right,

980
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 4: you know, and we wanted it.

981
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 6: Out like this is convenience.

982
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 4: Was right in the middle of the house and we

983
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 4: didn't need it, and so we.

984
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 6: Gave it in the basement areas as well.

985
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 4: We went from the basement to is that where.

986
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 6: She was ultimately found?

987
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 4: Yes, and how far is that.

988
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: From her room? It's down two flights, so they would

989
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: have taken her down two flights of stairs. Yeah, but

990
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: that's also to me totally bizarre.

991
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 6: They're just going up and down writing notes.

992
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: And also they still got away with it, So I

993
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: guess it didn't matter in the end, but not the

994
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: brain of a really really smart killer.

995
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 4: Well whoever did this has a very mixed up brain.

996
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,919
Speaker 1: Right, worried that there's things going on both ends here

997
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: and it's it doesn't.

998
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 4: Later there was a assault of a child, ye, a

999
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 4: few blocks away from us. That child and John Bay

1000
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 4: were in the same dance class, and I think the

1001
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 4: method of operation of the person was identical to ours.

1002
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 4: Is this after yeah, nine months.

1003
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: Later and this was it was it? This is an

1004
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 1: intruder in a house scenario.

1005
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 4: And I believe they came into the house when the

1006
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 4: parents parents were gone, because they came home and set

1007
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 4: the burger alarm and then went to bed. And the

1008
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 4: mother heard a noise and went to her daughter's room

1009
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 4: and found this person.

1010
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: Like a like a man in there, had a I

1011
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: think she had a like in the girl's room or like.

1012
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, the girl in molesting that close to the crime.

1013
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he got to wait out of there. He

1014
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 4: got out of there, and the police said and we

1015
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 4: it was like Scott, this ought to be looked at

1016
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 4: as the same person because of his technique was the same.

1017
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 4: I felt as to the father of the other the

1018
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 4: next girl, where's.

1019
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 6: The ransom note?

1020
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, I mean, if it was the

1021
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: same killer, he would have written the ransom note point first.

1022
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, at the point you know, I don't think

1023
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 4: you can.

1024
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 6: I mean, it's just evaluate frustrating that.

1025
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 4: So why do so many murder ten people?

1026
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 6: I know, it's sorry, but.

1027
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: Just like I don't know, like does there have to

1028
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: be a good reason, because killing somebody is insane anyways?

1029
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, they're insane. And you know, we would get

1030
00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:01,399
Speaker 4: notes letters from people that had the answer, and we'd

1031
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 4: read them and they're obviously bizarre and wacko, but we'd

1032
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 4: pay attention to them. Yes, whoever knew this person was

1033
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 4: also wacko. You don't hang around with people like that

1034
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 4: if you're normal.

1035
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: So the ransom note one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars,

1036
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 1: and you know, that's a pretty close match to the bonus,

1037
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: So it's I would surmise that they were able to

1038
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 1: get that information somehow.

1039
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 4: Right they have, that's my feeling.

1040
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: If you don't, if this is not a weird question,

1041
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: how much money did you actually make and how much

1042
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 1: money did you actually have?

1043
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 4: Well, you know, we we had.

1044
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 6: Could they have shot higher?

1045
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 4: Pardon?

1046
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 6: Could they have shot hire? Why not?

1047
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 4: Well, sure they could have. And we you know, I

1048
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 4: was president of this company that had grown really rapidly.

1049
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 4: It was a billion dollar company. Well, then I must

1050
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 4: be a billionaire.

1051
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 6: Well that when I asked for a million dollars, Sure,

1052
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 6: but I wasn't.

1053
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,439
Speaker 4: We did, we had more money than I ever thought

1054
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 4: i'd have, you know RD, but we weren't by any

1055
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 4: stretch wildly wealthy.

1056
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, but then that person would have to know

1057
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: that too specifically, which means that they would be even

1058
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 1: closer to you, not just from like No.

1059
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 4: One eighteen had a meeting to the.

1060
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: Killer did because like it's too specific.

1061
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 4: It was a message, pardon a message?

1062
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 6: Okay, what do you mean?

1063
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 4: Well? Was it a biblical message?

1064
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 6: But it's biblical? But also the being out of the bonus.

1065
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 4: That, yeah, that could have been a message as you

1066
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 4: didn't deserve this.

1067
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: I don't know that biblical message?

1068
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 6: What what is it actually?

1069
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 4: Well, in the in the Psalm and I can't recite it,

1070
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 4: but one of the sentences is saved by the cornerstone.

1071
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

1072
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 3: S BTC?

1073
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: What is saved by the cornerstone means?

1074
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 4: Uh, now you're testing my I I don't have to know, well,

1075
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 4: you know, I got to have to go back and

1076
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 4: read it to really uh the cornerstone, this cornerstone was

1077
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 4: I don't know what this is good. I should ask

1078
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 4: my wife, she's a biblical scholar.

1079
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: We'll probably tell us after Okay, yeah, okay, okay. Either way,

1080
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: it's like, once again, maybe something that just doesn't match

1081
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: here is a match there, and that gets me to

1082
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: this spot of I feel like the note is a distraction.

1083
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: I feel like, no matter what, it's just a side show.

1084
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: Clearly they had to know all this information.

1085
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 4: But like.

1086
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 6: They got away with this, but they failed the kidnapping.

1087
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: They failed on that right, and they spent so much

1088
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: time in there and could have got caught, didn't get caught.

1089
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: And so I feel like all of the details in there,

1090
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: like why do not you say this much money tomorrow?

1091
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: What is all this other stuff? Why don't even spend

1092
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: that much time writing it? Get the hell out of there?

1093
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 5: Right?

1094
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 6: Sure?

1095
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 7: Wouldn't you like to talk to the killer and find

1096
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 7: out me too.

1097
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 4: Badly of any sense, including the murder of a child.

1098
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 6: That's just I mean, what is the motives still out there?

1099
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 3: I do, and I think that he'll be caught.

1100
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 4: Risen or loose, no question.

1101
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: Do you think that this murder of your daughter, John

1102
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: and it will ever be solved?

1103
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 4: Smidt now what do you think. What do I think?

1104
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 6: Well, please say yes, well.

1105
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 4: Yes it will be someday, it may not be in

1106
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 4: my lifetime, but.

1107
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: What what will it take?

1108
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 4: Then you think, I think DNA technology is about so

1109
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 4: much and will continue to evolve.

1110
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 6: So much that.

1111
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 4: Properly UH looked for that solved the case.

1112
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: You give that a better thorough, actual test, more definitive answers.

1113
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: My fear is that we get the like, hopefully that happens,

1114
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: that should happen, and we should all be rooting for

1115
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: that to happen. When that happens, I'm fearful that it

1116
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: comes to be like, oh it's a factory worker, or

1117
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: how many cops were in there that day and there

1118
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: was no protocol at night.

1119
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 6: Well they had tried in the you know, so like

1120
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 6: is it just completely random? And then it's like okay, now.

1121
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 4: What Well, you know the sample that was got taken

1122
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 4: and recovered in nineteen ninety seven, that technology was much less.

1123
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 6: Where it is today.

1124
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 4: And so the DA that took over the that office

1125
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 4: after the DA that was in power at the time

1126
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 4: this happened, UH took the case away to the police.

1127
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 4: Now it was it was not positioned that way. I

1128
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 4: was like, well, we want to have other lives looking,

1129
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 4: she took it away from it. I'm convinced, set up

1130
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 4: her own investigative team, did some more DNA sampling, and

1131
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 4: now she did that in two thousand and six, I think,

1132
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 4: and technology was a lot further old. Today we're just

1133
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 4: light years past that and that every well, now our

1134
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 4: years were getting well past two thousand and six technology.

1135
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 4: But so she did more testing in two thousand and

1136
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 4: six eight found more DNA that was compatible with the

1137
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 4: DNA that was found in nineteen ninety seven.

1138
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 6: Okay sonking in different parts.

1139
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 4: Of the scene on the clothing, I guess, and concluded

1140
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 4: that that's enough evidence to show there was an intruder.

1141
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 6: And so she wrote us a letter intruder or that

1142
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 6: it just DNA matches itself. What like, how does that

1143
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 6: prove that there was an intruder?

1144
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 4: It was anubted by person. That DNA was left on

1145
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 4: different parts from John Byn's clothing.

1146
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 6: Yes, and body.

1147
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm saying that is it possible that that also

1148
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: could have been from all those different cops who were

1149
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: walking around in.

1150
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 4: There, and they've tested, they were checked.

1151
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 1: The cops police try to explain the police got they

1152
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: got DNA to swaps from me.

1153
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay.

1154
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 4: They went to all of our friends, all of our

1155
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 4: French kids, to.

1156
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: The police specifically, and I feel like there would be

1157
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: so tight lip about that and not want to do that.

1158
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 4: You know, Oh the police had We were told the

1159
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 4: police that were involved in this early on they had

1160
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 4: more each had an attorney. They had more attorneys than

1161
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 4: we did.

1162
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 6: So either way, this this all leads to DNA.

1163
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 1: We don't have enough information and if Boulder Police is

1164
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: holding on to this, they need to fucking let go

1165
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 1: of it and let grows come in and do it.

1166
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: And I'm all for you.

1167
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 6: What do you think? What do you want the audience

1168
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 6: to take away throughout the time now from this? And

1169
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 6: what can we do to push the ball forward, because

1170
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 6: I personally want to I know that they all do.

1171
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 4: You know that I learned a lot recently. There was

1172
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 4: an act passed at the federal level, Homicide Victims Family

1173
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 4: Rights Act, And basically that gives the family rights you

1174
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 4: a homicide case like ours, we had no rights to

1175
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 4: when the police weren't performing, we could just beg them.

1176
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 3: To perform, but this would give you control of the DNA.

1177
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 4: But well, the Act, if implemented at the state level,

1178
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 4: would give us the power to say, we want change.

1179
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 4: We want this case to be taken away from the police,

1180
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 4: we want a different agency to look at.

1181
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 6: It, empowering the power, empowering the parents of that who's

1182
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 6: children something.

1183
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 4: And but murder is a state crime. So that and

1184
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 4: that's one of the fundamental problems with our system in

1185
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 4: my opinion.

1186
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 6: You said you want to be a federal crime.

1187
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 4: Well, I was going down that track. I thought, let's

1188
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 4: make the burner of a child a federal offense. We

1189
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 4: ought to as a country imagine that it's not. But yes,

1190
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 4: it's not right. And I was told by knowledge of

1191
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 4: people that would be a very difficult law to get enacted.

1192
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 4: There's a lot of problems with jurisdiction and state lines

1193
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 4: and all that stuff. But I was became acquainted with

1194
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 4: this Rights Act Family Rights Act that was enacted at

1195
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 4: the federal level. There's now an effort to make it

1196
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 4: a state law in every state. It's right now in

1197
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 4: five states, I think, and it's pretty easy for him

1198
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 4: to adopt it. It's like a boiler plate law. They

1199
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 4: can just though, is this is like where you know,

1200
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 4: so that would have fixed a lot of our problem

1201
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 4: and that we could have demanded under law help and

1202
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 4: become that we could get help involved.

1203
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: My last question to you is what can I do

1204
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 1: to find this motherfucker?

1205
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 4: Well?

1206
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 6: Kill?

1207
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, well just give disappoint me in a direction, please anywhere.

1208
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 3: Go after Governor Polus, who has the right take.

1209
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, well the step but not taken the first step

1210
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 4: that could be taken. That's what we've been asking for

1211
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 4: for a long time, is the police ought to give

1212
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 4: need to give the crime scene evidence to the custody

1213
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 4: there and.

1214
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 6: To them to get off their ass to do something.

1215
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 6: The CBI. Well, they just got there, and.

1216
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 4: We want the FBI to have custody the crime scene evidence.

1217
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 4: Give them. It's called custodian rightness. I think, all right,

1218
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 4: and I think they would then do with it what

1219
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 4: it should should be done with it. Very simple act

1220
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 4: to do. If they haven't lost the evidence, if they have,

1221
01:03:59,360 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 4: in order.

1222
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 6: Will find out there's another egg on their face, and

1223
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 6: then we'll.

1224
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: Go from there, right yeah, yep, yeah, Well, thank you

1225
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: so much.

1226
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 6: Today I know that.

1227
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 8: They're talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV

1228
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 8: and iHeart podcast, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay for

1229
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 8: tenderfoot TV. Executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright.

1230
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 8: Co Executive producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, Executive

1231
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 8: producers are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music

1232
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 8: by Makeup and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney,

1233
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 8: Dylan Harrington, Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo.

1234
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 8: Production support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young.

1235
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 8: Mixing and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our

1236
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 8: cover art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our

1237
01:04:57,840 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 8: website Talking to Death Podcast.

1238
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

1239
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

1240
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,760
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1241
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1242
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