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Speaker 1: Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationships and

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling raivalry. No, no, sibling,

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Speaker 1: you don't do that with your mouth. Sibling revelry. That's good.

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Speaker 1: This was the best. I'm so excited to share this

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Speaker 1: with everyone out there. We interviewed Jeffrey Klueger now Jeffrey Klueger.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book called The Sibling Effect, he gave

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Speaker 1: a Ted talk called The Sibling Bond, and he's written

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Speaker 1: numerous articles for Time Magazine about the science of siblings, twins,

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Speaker 1: birth order more. He's actually, I believe, worked at Time

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Speaker 1: Magazine for a long time, over twenty years. He was cool,

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Speaker 1: so cool, He was so chill and and you would

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Speaker 1: expect him to be buttoned up just a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but not at all. I mean real laid back, real

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Speaker 1: laid back, and just shared so much information with us

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Speaker 1: that was so interesting. I feel like we learned a lot,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't even want to preface this one.

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Speaker 1: The one thing that he said that I knew is

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Speaker 1: true that everyone, all parents sort of you know, would

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Speaker 1: never admit is that there is a favorite child. According

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Speaker 1: to mister Klug's oh, I mean really do have a

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Speaker 1: favorite child? Yeah? Change, but they change, but there is

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Speaker 1: you know, you do have your favorites, yes, just the

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Speaker 1: way it is. Yeah, I guess it also depends on

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Speaker 1: like the parents' personality. Jeffrey. He also talked about his family,

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Speaker 1: which is a little crazy because he his brother, is

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Speaker 1: his half siblings and then ex step siblings. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot to sort of unpack. Even with him, we

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Speaker 1: didn't even have enough time to cover it all, you know,

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Speaker 1: I know, but we can still use this bit. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, just enjoy Jeffrey Kluger Kate. Yeah, wait, that's

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Speaker 1: good right there. Okay, but wait you did it? Yeah

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Speaker 1: a great, Yeah perfect. How old are your kids? Sixteen

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Speaker 1: and eighteen? Oh wow? And who's your favorite? Oh? I

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Speaker 1: have my notes. I have read that we all have

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Speaker 1: a favorite. We paren all have a favorite, and it

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Speaker 1: is a secret we will carry to our graves. That

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Speaker 1: is so crazy because I was really thinking about it,

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Speaker 1: and I honestly don't think I have a favorite. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are definitely things about each one that I favor.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's certain qualities that I look at and

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Speaker 1: I go, oh, you know, that's a beautiful quality that

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Speaker 1: my son has that maybe my other son doesn't, and

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Speaker 1: then vice versa. But I don't necessarily have they switch

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Speaker 1: off to me. Are the science actually does show there's

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Speaker 1: sort of situational favoritism, there's contextual favoritism. So you love

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Speaker 1: one child more, you connect with one child more in

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Speaker 1: one context, and then with another child in a different context.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So you're saying that it's not a broad

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Speaker 1: it's not a broad sort of scope of Oh, I

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Speaker 1: love you the most forever. Right, Yes, unless you are

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Speaker 1: mileage does exist, but we want to avoid pathology, so right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think my mother loves me. We've talked

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Speaker 1: about this. Well, we'll get to this. You wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called the Sibling Effect, and you yourself have a

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Speaker 1: very interesting relationship with your siblings. You've got, is it,

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Speaker 1: three brothers, three full brothers, yes, a half brother and

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Speaker 1: a half sister. And I had two stepsisters for a

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Speaker 1: hot minute in the nineteen sixties, and I have a

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Speaker 1: half step sister that's almost too complicated to explain, but

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Speaker 1: she is out there. This sounds like us. You are

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Speaker 1: a very prolific writer. You've been working for Time for

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Speaker 1: many years, right, which, yeah, ye incredible. I was reading

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Speaker 1: over your bio and it's very similar to mine, so

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Speaker 1: you know all of the things that you have sort

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Speaker 1: of written about and studied and accomplished. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: pretty amazing. Well, what is it your very family focused?

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Speaker 1: I think it seems like your interests are in science

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Speaker 1: and space and families, right, And I think there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of reason for that. First of all, I think

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Speaker 1: family is obviously, it's the primal unit. It's the unit

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Speaker 1: that spawns us, it's the unit that protects us, It's

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Speaker 1: the unit that gathers around us when we need one another.

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Speaker 1: But the sort of polar opposite, the philosophical opposite of that,

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Speaker 1: is space. It couldn't be more remote, it couldn't be

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Speaker 1: more alien, it couldn't be more life threatening. I mean,

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Speaker 1: space doesn't want you there. As I often write, space

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Speaker 1: really wants to kill you if you so much as

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Speaker 1: set foot in it. So I have this world in

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Speaker 1: which I grew up with this very tight and very

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Speaker 1: close family, which sort of I think gave me the

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Speaker 1: temperamental courage then to go out and explore something that's

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Speaker 1: a whole lot scarier than just terrestrial things. Lads, well,

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Speaker 1: where did you sort of when did you discover in

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Speaker 1: yourself that you wanted to really explore this family unit

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Speaker 1: and then specifically siblings. You know, at what point did

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Speaker 1: that happen? It's a really good question. My brothers and I,

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Speaker 1: my full brothers and I grew up in a house

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Speaker 1: in which there was extensive turmoil. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that the research shows is that when you have

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Speaker 1: what the researchers called total immersion sibling relationships, it often

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Speaker 1: comes from a trauma. There can be a sickness, there

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Speaker 1: can be a death, but it's most often a divorce.

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Speaker 1: And my parents were divorced and then divorced again, and

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Speaker 1: I think that forged my brothers and me. We sort

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Speaker 1: of It's a little bit like when metal is annealed.

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Speaker 1: It's warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled and it

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Speaker 1: becomes both flexible and stronger at the same time. And

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Speaker 1: I think my brothers and I became what I call

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Speaker 1: this brawling, loving, lasting unit as a result of these experiences.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So then that your childhood sort of made

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Speaker 1: you want to delve childhood, maybe want to delve in that.

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Speaker 1: And then in twenty fifteen there was a journal I

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Speaker 1: used to read, a science journal called I don't Know,

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Speaker 1: It's a psychology journal, and they had devoted an entire

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Speaker 1: issue just to the studies of siblings. And I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you something about Time Magazine. There is nothing scarier than

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Speaker 1: walking into the room into the morning meeting at Time

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Speaker 1: Magazine and pitching an interview, pitching a story. It's like

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Speaker 1: Don Draper in Madmen, but twenty times worse because you're

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Speaker 1: not as good looking as John Hamm. You're just a

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Speaker 1: guy pitching a story. So I pitched this story on

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Speaker 1: a full exploration of siblings as the relationship that people

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Speaker 1: have overlooked. We all think our mothers, our fathers, our spouses,

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Speaker 1: our children are our primal relationships. The siblings are just

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Speaker 1: sort of the moons in our solar system. So I

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Speaker 1: explained this story and there was a long, terrifying silence

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Speaker 1: that followed, and a woman in the room named Nancy Gibbs,

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Speaker 1: who later became the editor of the magazine, said the

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Speaker 1: three words that we all love to hear most nothing

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Speaker 1: but readers, meaning you put that story in and people

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Speaker 1: will eat it up. Why do you think that it's

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Speaker 1: such an under explored relationship. I'm glad you asked that question.

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Speaker 1: I think it's because evolution sees siblings, sees children as

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Speaker 1: sort of a fungible, mass produced product on the assembly line. Remember,

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Speaker 1: we were born into a world, or at least our

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Speaker 1: species was born into a world in which the the

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Speaker 1: likelihood of a child living past five years old was

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Speaker 1: very low. So what you do if you are a

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Speaker 1: faken fertile couple, you produce a whole lot of kids

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Speaker 1: because you need children to work the farm, you need

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Speaker 1: children to carry on your legacy, and you accept that

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Speaker 1: if you have ten or eleven children, four may make

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Speaker 1: it to adulthood. So siblings were seeing as sort of

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Speaker 1: a mass produced, fungible good. And as a result, as

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Speaker 1: psychology evolved and we began looking at family relationships, we

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Speaker 1: did look at those relationships that seem more singular. If

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Speaker 1: you do marriage, if you do marriage right, you only

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Speaker 1: have one spouse, you only have two parents, but you

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Speaker 1: have you may have dozens of siblings, so they're very interchangeable.

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Speaker 1: I think to mix my metaphors slightly. When I began

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Speaker 1: looking into siblings, realize that for all of the work

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Speaker 1: psychologists had done exploring relationships. Siblings were sort of the

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Speaker 1: dark matter, the gravitational force that no one had looked at.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit like when Pluto was discovered. Part

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Speaker 1: of the reason Pluto was discovered was because Clyde Tomball,

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Speaker 1: the man who discovered it, noticed something is pulling on Neptune.

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Speaker 1: There's an invisible gravitational force pulling on Neptune. Something has

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Speaker 1: to be out there, and he found Pluto. And I

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Speaker 1: think the more scientists looked into human relationships, the more

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Speaker 1: they realized there was a dark matter gravity and it

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Speaker 1: turned out to be siblings. M we're dark matter, makes sense, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well we're dark matter gravity. So it started with Time

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Speaker 1: magazine and then that sort of was it so successful

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Speaker 1: that you then made it into a book. That was

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Speaker 1: how it happened. It started originally with a story on Time,

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Speaker 1: and then there was another story that came out a

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Speaker 1: study that focused specifically on birth order, and the editor

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Speaker 1: of the magazine at the time, I think it was

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Speaker 1: Richard Stengel, said, let's do a follow up story on

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Speaker 1: birth order. So by now I had two cover stories

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Speaker 1: in Time, both about siblings, and my agent said to me,

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Speaker 1: my agent, a woman named Joey Harris. She's the only

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Speaker 1: agent I've ever had. I've always said if I go

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Speaker 1: out of the business, I will go out with Joy,

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Speaker 1: like Thelma and Louise. We will both hands and go

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Speaker 1: over a cliff. And Joy said to me, this could

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Speaker 1: be a good book. So we pitched it, and Riverhead

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Speaker 1: Books very much liked it. Well, that's a that's a

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Speaker 1: good segue, actually, because birth order. Let's talk about birth

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Speaker 1: order for a second, because I think I feel like,

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Speaker 1: after reading your book and listening to your ted talk

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Speaker 1: and the various articles that maybe don't yeah, you don't

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Speaker 1: that trend not really, can you describe what the birth

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Speaker 1: order statistically, what that looks like. One of the interesting

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Speaker 1: things about birth order is that scientists, who can be

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Speaker 1: very egotistical and often don't like to concede that lay

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Speaker 1: people without education have come to ideas before they have.

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Speaker 1: Even the scientists concede that lay people sort of got

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Speaker 1: the birth order thing right simply intuitively. Now that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean it's true in every single case. It doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: it's remotely true in every single case. But it does

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Speaker 1: mean that the first born is born into a system

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Speaker 1: that he or she is invested in preserving because it's

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Speaker 1: a system in which you're special. You are the only child,

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Speaker 1: you're the favored child. You get all of the attention.

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Speaker 1: Then a second child comes along, and the first child

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Speaker 1: suddenly has half the attention. The second child is now

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Speaker 1: born into a system in which he and he or

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Speaker 1: she wants to upset the order because the second child

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Speaker 1: wants more attention. Then you get a third, then you

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Speaker 1: get a fourth, then you get a fifth, and you

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Speaker 1: get this exponentially increasing complexity. Maybe maybe I maybe have

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Speaker 1: a realization. But maybe I have a realization. Maybe the

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Speaker 1: reason why I didn't get along with you for so

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Speaker 1: long is because I blame you for our parents divorced,

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Speaker 1: because you more than we're prepared to get into. You

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Speaker 1: a therapist, and we need job, I know, but you

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Speaker 1: came in and sort of disrupted the flow, and then

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Speaker 1: our parents got divorced. So I, from an unconscious place,

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Speaker 1: maybe I associated our parents divorced with you coming into

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Speaker 1: this world. Those associations. Actually, well, it makes sense only

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Speaker 1: in the way that associations are things we make, and

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Speaker 1: which is why you know, if you have if you're

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Speaker 1: feeling sick, if you're feeling nauseous, and you also at

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Speaker 1: that moment smell cigarette smoke. You're never going to be

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Speaker 1: able to smell cigarette smoke without feeling nauseous because that

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Speaker 1: connection is made in your brain. So when the second

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Speaker 1: child comes along and the divorce happens, that much more powerful,

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Speaker 1: much more primal connection is made in your brain. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't really mean that that's the reason the divorce happens.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't that at a very early level, that

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Speaker 1: idea is I think it was. It was. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: your fault, but it was I perceived it exactly right.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Yes, yes, I'm not blaming you. No, of

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Speaker 1: course I'm not blaming you. I'm just saying that I

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Speaker 1: think I know this. I know I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: at the time you didn't know unconsciously that you were

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Speaker 1: blaming me in a sense. Of course. That's an interesting right,

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Speaker 1: But it's your fault. Although I'm the middle and I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm the older in a sense in terms

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Speaker 1: of the sibling order, right, well, everyone thinks you're older too.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, we have a very we have a

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Speaker 1: very interesting situation that in that we don't I don't

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Speaker 1: know what to say the only girl maybe have something

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Speaker 1: to do with it. It's a huge thing. I've always

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Speaker 1: said that if you're going to have three children, the

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Speaker 1: ideal configuration is boy girl boy or a girl boy girl,

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Speaker 1: because everyone is special. Someone is the oldest, someone is

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Speaker 1: the youngest, someone is the the the single gender boy

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Speaker 1: boy girl, boy girl girl. It's there's someone who's always

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Speaker 1: stuck in a middle seat. But aren't there so many

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Speaker 1: other contributing factors I mean as to it's I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's just sort of the scratching the surface right.

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Speaker 1: Birth order is by no means remotely destiny. I'm the

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Speaker 1: number two in my family. I'm number two out of

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Speaker 1: four boys. But my older brother, who is a profoundly

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Speaker 1: gifted person who we hope has a play coming to

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Speaker 1: Broadway very soon. It just premiered in New Brunswick, and

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited for him. But he was also growing up.

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Speaker 1: I love him dearly. He was nuts. He was completely eccentric,

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Speaker 1: and he knows he was completely eccentric. So I sort

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Speaker 1: of became what's called the functional firstborn, you know, when

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Speaker 1: it came time to taking care of family business, When

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Speaker 1: it came time to taking care of our elderly mother.

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Speaker 1: It was me who sort of stepped in and handled

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Speaker 1: all the estate stuff and handled all the lawyer stuff.

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Speaker 1: Even though I'm not the firstborn, I became functional firstborn.

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Speaker 1: That happens. There's a lot of other variables that can

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Speaker 1: mix up that. What seems like the destiny of birth orders. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean clearly I'm the functioning firstborn. Yeah, or the

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Speaker 1: functioning what did you call it? Functional firstborn? The functional

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Speaker 1: first And then what does that make me just the

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Speaker 1: first hilarious in name? For well, you still hold the title,

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Speaker 1: if your royalty, you would still be heir to the throne.

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Speaker 1: What was this? What was the most surprising statistic when

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Speaker 1: you first started researching about siblings? What was the thing

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Speaker 1: that really shocked you. I'm not sure shocked, But the

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Speaker 1: thing that impressed me the most was that youngest siblings

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Speaker 1: have an almost telepathic power to read people, to intuit people.

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Speaker 1: They have what's called a theory of mind. Children who

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Speaker 1: come one of the a wonderful story, A wonderful study

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Speaker 1: that I read said that if you take a toddler

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Speaker 1: and you, a caregiver, says to a toddler, let's hide

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Speaker 1: this toy in a cabinet. When another adult walks in

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Speaker 1: the room, the toddler will assume that the other adult

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Speaker 1: knows where the toy is, because to a toddler, his

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Speaker 1: knowledge is all knowledge. It's only as they get a

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Speaker 1: little older that they realize, oh, wait a minute, it's

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Speaker 1: what's in my mind isn't necessarily in that person's mind.

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Speaker 1: The last born gets that earlier. The last born is

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Speaker 1: better at reading people. The last born is funnier because

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Speaker 1: the last born has to use what are called low

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Speaker 1: power strategies. You are the weakest chick in the playroom.

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Speaker 1: You have the least physical power. So what you use

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Speaker 1: is your ability to foresee an attack coming, to foresee

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Speaker 1: someone angry at you, to make a person laugh, because

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Speaker 1: it's very hard to be to be aggressive towards someone

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Speaker 1: who's laughing. I did the Colbert Report once when this book,

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Speaker 1: only once when this book came out, and he's the

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Speaker 1: youngest of a living and he said, what can you

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Speaker 1: tell me about me? I said, well, as the youngest,

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Speaker 1: you're intuitive, you're insightful, you see into people what other

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Speaker 1: people can't. You're extraordinarily funny. And he cut me off

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Speaker 1: and said, this is a very good book. It was

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Speaker 1: just a perfect Stephen Colbert response. Okay, so, but you

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Speaker 1: seem to have just described me. Yes, and I'm the oldest. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm very intuitive. I'm for sure the

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Speaker 1: funniest person in the family. There's just no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you that. I'll give you that. You know.

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Speaker 1: But this is what was interesting about reading your book

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Speaker 1: and hearing sort of these statistics, is they they flip

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Speaker 1: on their head when I sort of think about myself, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, so, where does sort of an anomaly. Where

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Speaker 1: might an anomaly like myself come from? If there is

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Speaker 1: if you need an answer to that, spacing between birth

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Speaker 1: order or it probably has a lot to do with

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Speaker 1: spacing has a great deal to do with it. My

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Speaker 1: brothers and I pity my poor mother. In the nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: this is I mean, mothers were baby making machines. She

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Speaker 1: was twenty five years old and she had four sons

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Speaker 1: four and a half years old or younger. It's a

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Speaker 1: wonder she survived till twenty six. When people got older,

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Speaker 1: or when the generation's matured, there's much greater spacing, so

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Speaker 1: you don't have quite the same peer group relationship you

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Speaker 1: have there can be an element of the uncle aunt relationship,

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Speaker 1: there can be the element of the older cousin younger

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Speaker 1: cousin relationship, and in a way that sometimes makes the

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Speaker 1: siblings a little bit less intimately close. But what it

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Speaker 1: does do is add a mentoring dimension to it, and

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Speaker 1: mentoring can be incredibly powerful. One interesting study showed that

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Speaker 1: it's a Norwegian study show that firstborns tend to have

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Speaker 1: IQs about three points higher than second borns, and second

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Speaker 1: borns tend to have IQs about a point and a

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Speaker 1: half higher than third borns. That's not because something happens

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Speaker 1: in the womb when the brain with the brain's just

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Speaker 1: getting weaker. It's because firstborns get to be mentors. And

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Speaker 1: when you mentor, you learn more. Think about it. If

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Speaker 1: you understand math and there's someone in your classroom who

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Speaker 1: doesn't understand it, and you're tutoring that person, you're reinforcing

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Speaker 1: your own talent, your own ability, your own knowledge. So

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Speaker 1: mentoring can be a very powerful thing for middle kids.

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Speaker 1: It works especially well because you can be both mentee

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Speaker 1: and mentor. You wrote the regression of older there's a

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Speaker 1: regression of older sibling when the younger sibling is born,

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Speaker 1: What kind of a regression might I might I've got?

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Speaker 1: Did I go through? Typically, the regression will be back

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Speaker 1: to the kinds of dependencies that required paternal and maternal attention.

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Speaker 1: So there may be kids who were toilet trained may

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Speaker 1: begin bedwetting again. Kids who had long since gotten over

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Speaker 1: fear of the dark may become fearful of the dark again.

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Speaker 1: Kids who had learned not to cling to their parents

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Speaker 1: when they were in public but sort of venture forth

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Speaker 1: and be a little braver may cling again, because what

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Speaker 1: they recall profoundly is that this got me hugged, this

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Speaker 1: got me kissed, this got me attended to, And there's

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Speaker 1: someone else now, some little monster in the house, who's

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Speaker 1: getting all of that attention, and I want to get

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Speaker 1: some of it back. The regression can be a problem

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Speaker 1: simply because it makes life more difficult, both for the

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Speaker 1: child and for the parents. But one way to make

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Speaker 1: that work, or one way to overcome that, is, first

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Speaker 1: of all, to appeal to the child pride. You know,

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Speaker 1: remember how proud you felt when you were wearing just

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Speaker 1: pull ups and you could go to the potty and

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Speaker 1: take care of things all by yourself. Remember how proud

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Speaker 1: you felt when you could walk halfway across them all

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Speaker 1: as long as you could see me, you were okay,

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Speaker 1: and the child then remembers that sense of being, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm grown up, and they come back to those old

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Speaker 1: skills that they had briefly lost. It's just interesting that

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about siblings and the fact that we

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Speaker 1: kind of overlooked them in terms of psychology, are really

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Speaker 1: studying them, and yet so much effort goes into raising

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Speaker 1: your children, you know, and so much like Oliver and

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Speaker 1: I always say, like so much of it is about

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Speaker 1: focusing on them getting along right right. For me, it's

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Speaker 1: you said something I think on your Ted talk about

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Speaker 1: the fighting. The fighting is astonishing, and I forget the

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Speaker 1: exact nu. I wish I could look at the Ted

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Speaker 1: Talk now, But in the four to seven age group,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a fight of some kind on the

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Speaker 1: order of once every three point five minutes. And when

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Speaker 1: I say fight, it often means an exchange of blows,

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Speaker 1: and not just one blow. It's a blow and a

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Speaker 1: return to blow. Now that's when the fights become physical.

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Speaker 1: But screaming fights can happen twelve times, fourteen times an hour.

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Speaker 1: This is just what children do they are combat machines,

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Speaker 1: they're you know, I spent a fair bit of the

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Speaker 1: book looking at animal analogies, and you know, sharks will

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Speaker 1: literally eat each other in the womb until there's only

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Speaker 1: one left and that shark gets born. Chicks will fight

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Speaker 1: in the nest. It's all about primal survival. It's all

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Speaker 1: about resources. In the case of animals, there's one resource,

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Speaker 1: food nutrient. In the case of humans, there's food, there's love,

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Speaker 1: there's a tension, there's story time, there's hugging. We are

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Speaker 1: an incredibly tactile species. I need constantly to be touched,

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Speaker 1: and those resources are limited for parents. What a complex

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Speaker 1: animal we are. We are too complex to I swear

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Speaker 1: we are really. If we were diagnosed, we would be

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Speaker 1: clinically insane. Unfortunately, fortunately there's no higher order species diagnosing us, right. True,

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Speaker 1: It's like Jesus, you humans so much, you need so much. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we just you're an eccentric species. It's amazing. I feel

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Speaker 1: like too. You know, then do you just let them

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Speaker 1: go at it? I mean, is that one of the

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Speaker 1: things where I read this book once called wild things?

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Speaker 1: I'm getting that wrong. But it's all about raising boys

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Speaker 1: and it talks a lot about these things about but

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Speaker 1: a tendency for boys to sort of need to fight

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Speaker 1: and wrestle and fart, you know, yes, and just do

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Speaker 1: you know, things that are very different to females, And

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Speaker 1: that doesn't happen, by the way, when you're sixty five.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you that with certainty none of that changes.

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Speaker 1: Females fart all the time. No, I think it's different.

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Speaker 1: I think I mean, yeah, of course, but it's a

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Speaker 1: different kind of far different kind of part I probably see.

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Speaker 1: The physiology is the same, the pride is what's different.

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Speaker 1: I think it's just a different type of interest, right,

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Speaker 1: We're just interested in different things. It's a different. As

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Speaker 1: I always say, I tell my daughters, I cannot always

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Speaker 1: be young, but I can always be immature, and I

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Speaker 1: plan to be that forever. Oh. Yes, it is true

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Speaker 1: that boys fight a lot, fight physically quite a lot,

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Speaker 1: and intervention is important. Number one. Triage. You don't want bloodshed,

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Speaker 1: You don't want anyone to get hurt. Number two. It's

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Speaker 1: just tiresome and it's loud and things get broken, but

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Speaker 1: you do as long as it's Sometimes I look at

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Speaker 1: it as kittens wrestling, you know, when kittens wrestle. When

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Speaker 1: puppies wrestle, they will do one very powerful thing. They

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Speaker 1: will expose their neck, the most vulnerable part of their body,

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Speaker 1: because that's where the major veins are, and that's where

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Speaker 1: you would kill as a predator. And the other puppy

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Speaker 1: will mouth the neck but will not bite. And what

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Speaker 1: that says is I trust you to expose my neck,

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Speaker 1: and you have to show me that you deserve that

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Speaker 1: trust by mouthing but not biting. In the sense that

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Speaker 1: human beings do that, in the sense that boys do that.

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Speaker 1: We learn a lot. We operate like animals do, so

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Speaker 1: in that wrestling that doesn't really do harm, we learn trust,

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Speaker 1: and we also practice how to get out into the

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Speaker 1: real world when you really might have to fight. I

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Speaker 1: love that. Yeah, that's great, it's so beautiful. I like

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Speaker 1: the I like when when you said that it's about

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Speaker 1: that's where you learn trust. That's where they learned how

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Speaker 1: to trust each other is through that physical It's not

426
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: just that the person who gets hurt learns about all right,

427
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: I better not do that again because I felt pain.

428
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: The person who inflicted the pain learns about remorse, learns

429
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: about empathy. My oldest brother still feels pain. And he'll

430
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: say he can't even think about it. At a time

431
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: when he was I don't know, seven, and my baby brother,

432
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: who was three, had messed up some puzzle he was

433
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: working on. My older brother jumped on him and pummeled him,

434
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: and my youngest brother didn't know what he had done wrong,

435
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: and he said, what did I do? And my brother,

436
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: now six decades later, says, when I think those words,

437
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: what did I do? I still want to cry. So

438
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: you learn remorse, you learn regret. Yeah, yeah, do you

439
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: feel regret? I don't. I know, but it's interesting. So,

440
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: you know, even getting into our story a little bit,

441
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: you might have some insight. You know, our parents divorced

442
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: when I was maybe four or five and Kate was

443
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: two or three, And you talk about in your book,

444
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: how you know a lot of the times siblings will

445
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: come together after a divorce. Right, maybe we were too young.

446
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: I went the other way. I guess Kate didn't she

447
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: You know, I did not want to be her friend.

448
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be her brother. She frustrated me,

449
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: annoyed me. I would trip her, I would push her.

450
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: All she wanted was my love. And I don't think

451
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: I was emotionally capable to give it to her based

452
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: on the circumstances. Potentially, but only you know, in our

453
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: twenties and maybe after college is when we sort of well, college,

454
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: I went to college, and I came back, and then

455
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: we got closer. I mean, why do you think, in

456
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: your professional opinion, do you think that we well I

457
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: didn't want to accept her. Well, I don't know. I mean,

458
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: it may very well be what you said that at

459
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: some level, some level that didn't stand up to close scrutiny.

460
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: But you were only what four years old, so you

461
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: know you weren't capable of close. Sure, but this lasted,

462
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: but at some level years you may have blamed her.

463
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if your parents played you off against

464
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: each other. Was their favoritism? Was there one parent pulling

465
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: you and another parent pulling you, Kate or no? It

466
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: could simply be the association that you know. It was

467
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: again that smelling tobacco and feeling sick. The baby came

468
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: along and the parents got divorced, and there must be

469
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: a cause and effect. I will say this though, about

470
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: the coming back together later, My half brother and half

471
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: sister were they're eleven years younger than me. I saw

472
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: them twice at the first part of their lives, when

473
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 1: they were infants and then when they were toddlers, and

474
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: for various pathological reasons, their mother, my father's second wife,

475
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: did not want them to know that my brothers and

476
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: I even existed, so they didn't know. A family secret

477
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: was kept for fifteen years. They didn't know we existed.

478
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: When we finally wrote them letters at summer camp and

479
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: told them that we existed, it still took another six

480
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: years before we got together. But I will say this now,

481
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: I adore those two people. I adore my half brother

482
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: and sister. We found a life as adults, and my

483
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: older my baby sister especially. I've been going through some

484
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: life crises lately and I can I practically have a

485
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: bat signal for my sister Alison. I can hit it.

486
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,719
Speaker 1: She's on the phone and she talks me through whatever

487
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: my crisis is. That is an amazing story. How wild

488
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: is that unreal? And I do want to say right now,

489
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: by the way, because she is still among us and

490
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: I have come to love her as well. So whatever

491
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: she went through my stepmother, that was forty five years ago.

492
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: She was an insecure person forty five years ago. She

493
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: went through whatever she went through. I call it pathological

494
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: that I judge too harshly. She is now in her

495
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: eighties and she is a wonderful and strong and delightful

496
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: and loving woman. But even you know, on that point,

497
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: you know, we don't know. I mean, you might now,

498
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: but we don't know what she even went through as

499
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: a child herself. That's exactly you know. We don't know

500
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: the full story a lot of the times of people

501
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: who we judge right, you know, So there is a

502
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: lot of sort of forgiveness I think when you can

503
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: think of it that way. You know, how many siblings

504
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: do you go by jeff or Jeffrey. As I've gotten older,

505
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: I go by Jeffrey because I'm stuffier and more full

506
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: of myself. Okay, I like Jeffrey. So is there a

507
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: percentage of siblings that do not talk to each others?

508
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: There like a statistic of siblings that stay close and

509
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: ones that end up going in completely different directions. I

510
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: had that number in my book and I wish I

511
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: remember it. It is. All I can say is it

512
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: is a in gredibly significant number. People who say I

513
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: simply don't like any of my siblings. I simply don't

514
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 1: like this particular sibling. I haven't talked to my brother

515
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: Jerry in fifteen years, and I will never do so again.

516
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: My message in my Ted talk and in my book

517
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: was that look, if relationships are irrevocably broken, they are

518
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: irrevocably broken. Sometimes that happens in human relationships. But if

519
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: they're savable, save them. Having siblings and not making the

520
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: most of them is like having forty thousand acres of

521
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: fertile farmland and allowing it to sit fallow forever. There

522
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: is so much that you can grow and nurture in

523
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: the soil of a sibling relationship. There's so much that

524
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: you can can share. The thing about siblings is, and

525
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: I say this early in the book, your parents leave

526
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: you too early. Your spouse comes along relatively late in

527
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: your life, your children come along later. Still, your siblings

528
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: are the only ones who are with you for more

529
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: or less the entire ride. And when you fight during

530
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: the day. If I fought with my brother Steve, and

531
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: we were arguing all day long, we still had to

532
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: return to the same twin beds in the same bedroom

533
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: at eight thirty that night, and we either figured out

534
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: the fight or we didn't and we always did figure

535
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: it out. Oh, I wish people had the foundation. A

536
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: lot of people out there that have difficulty with their

537
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: siblings that they had the kind of foundation to allow

538
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: them to or at leaves the tools to at least

539
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 1: try to reconnect. But the thing is, it's not too late,

540
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, you don't have to

541
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: establish that lifelong bond from the very very beginning. I

542
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: don't think it's too late. But I always tell my kids,

543
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 1: my boys when they're fighting, you know, and even Reo,

544
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: because I have two boys, and then my little girl

545
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: Rio and she's just she's as feminine as it gets,

546
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: but tough as shit, you know, because she has her

547
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: two boys. But when the boys fight, I always say, look,

548
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: you guys, you're gonna have friends that are going to

549
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: come and go. I said, this is it. I said,

550
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: you have each other. This is a forever relationship. And

551
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: even though they are, you know, at the time seven

552
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: and nine, and I would always sort of hammer this

553
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: home for them, you know. I keep trying to hammer

554
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: it home just because it is the truth. And I

555
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: think that, you know, I can learn from some of

556
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: my mistakes with Kate and sort of whatever the lessons

557
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: that we have learned and we will probably continue to

558
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: learn as we sort of get old and grow older

559
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: as siblings. You know, we definitely have had our moments

560
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: of real togetherness and then real separation. I mean Kate

561
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: when she was having, you know, her career, her movie

562
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: career was just on fire, and she was with Chris

563
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: and she was traveling around the world doing movies and

564
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: you know, being fabulous. I feel like I'm still traveling

565
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: the world being fabulous. Yeah, but maybe you just include

566
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: me on your planes now, Oliver, So you know, but

567
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: you know, we were we were we did. We were

568
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 1: not in each other's lives for a long time. Yeah,

569
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: for for a good like maybe eight years. Yeah, I

570
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: mean a long time. But we were not connected. We weren't.

571
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 1: But we were connected, but on a on a sibling

572
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: sort of familial level, but not close. We were not

573
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: close then, you mean, I think circumstantially this past holiday season,

574
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: Oliver and I did have a moment that made me flecked,

575
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: just as a parent, where we realized that our parents

576
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: have done well with us, meaning that we will carry

577
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: the traditions of our family and the importance of that

578
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: unit as siblings, as an extension of our parents forever,

579
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: whether that be through our own immediate families, but always

580
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: always stay connected to each other. And it's an amazing

581
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: thing to realize when your parents are still alive and

582
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: healthy and vibrant, to know that, like, oh, okay, so

583
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: that's how you do. That's that's our job as parents

584
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: is to make sure that our children kind of carry

585
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: these I guess it's as people would say, you carry,

586
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: you carry the stories. The folklore of your family goes

587
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: passed down through generation generation. If you do it right,

588
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: then those stories last forever, exactly. And I think my parents,

589
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: my mom, especially my father, was more lesson absentee father,

590
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: but my mom stressed to us again and again exactly

591
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 1: what you were talking about, the unbreakability of the sibling unit,

592
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: the fact that these are people who your friends will

593
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: come and go. Your siblings are an unbreakable force. I

594
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: tell my children that all the time. I tell them

595
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: when they're fighting, I say, girlies, I want you in

596
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: seventy years, when you're both in your eighties to still say,

597
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: this is my best friend, this is the girl, This

598
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: is the woman who was always at my side when

599
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 1: I needed her the most, and I've seen that in

600
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: them often when they were were growing up. I still

601
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 1: see it in them. I think it's vitally important. I

602
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 1: think again it helped in my situation when my brothers

603
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: and I went through a difficult time with a difficult

604
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: divorce together. And I think it's also important to remember

605
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: that the things that drive us crazy about our siblings

606
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: do not have to be destructive things. They can be

607
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: things that my brother I'm the wind bag in my family.

608
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: I'm the bombastic man in my family. My brother Gary

609
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: is the profane man. My brother Steve is the drama queen.

610
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: My brother Bruce is the showman. We drive one another crazy.

611
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: But as someone, one of the greatest lines I ever read,

612
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: and I wish I knew where I read it was

613
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: about how families function at Thanksgiving, and somebody said, look,

614
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: when you come home, of course your family is going

615
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: to push all your buttons. They're the people who installed them.

616
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: They know how your buttons work. When just recently, not

617
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: to bring the tone down, but just in July, our

618
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: mother passed away. She was eighty eight, so it was,

619
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: you know, it was timely, and my three brothers and

620
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: I went to Baltimore and we knew that under the

621
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: stress of that situation, every one of us was going

622
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: to give voice to and permission for our own worst behavior.

623
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: So my family just accepted the fact that I was

624
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: going to be casting about orders and I was going

625
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: to be telling people what to do and they were

626
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: perfectly free to ignore me. And my brother Steve was

627
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: going to be doing the opening scene from Gypsy to

628
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 1: some dramatic moment that was completely unsuited to the moment,

629
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: and that's it's just what we were going to do

630
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: because in a tough time, we went back to who

631
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: we were. Yeah, I mean, that's just so beautiful that

632
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: you even just the expression alone, that you're able to

633
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: even you know, free, freely able to express yourselves, especially

634
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: in a moment like that. I think the problem too.

635
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: I think the problem too is you have a lot

636
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: of these sibling relationships that are non existent now because

637
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: of just petty bullshit that can so easily be resolved.

638
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: But there's pride and there's ego involved, and there there's

639
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: just so much you know, scar tissue that that that

640
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: that that that doesn't have to be there, you know,

641
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: and if one person would just sort of reach out

642
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: and say, you know, what fuck it? Okay, we've been

643
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: holding on to this bullshit for way too long, and

644
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: really there is it is not worth us not knowing

645
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: each other, you know. I think we need more of that.

646
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: People who are who, who are gonna have the ability

647
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: in the balls and the courage to just reach out

648
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: and and and to sort of rekindle a relationship That

649
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: is necessary, you know. And that's especially because the rewards

650
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: are so rich. If you have it's hard to say

651
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: you're wrong. It's hard to say I played a role

652
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: in this problem. But I apologize for that role. I

653
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: can't undo that role. I can learn from that role

654
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: I played. And now let's see if we can tap

655
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: this resource of our relationship again. It's a wonderful thing

656
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: to be able to do. I have a question about twins.

657
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: There's a study about twins in space. Do you have

658
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: anything to say about Mark, Mark and Scott, Kelly, Mark

659
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: and Scott. That's right, Yeah, Well, my half brother and

660
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: sister are fraternal twins, and they have a bond that

661
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 1: is self evidently closer than any other sibling bond I've

662
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: ever seen. They grew up, they're not the same gender.

663
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: They certainly weren't from they're not identical, obviously, but they

664
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: grew up. They came into the world at precisely the

665
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: same instant. They developed in precisely the same womb, They

666
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 1: went through their developmental stages in precisely the same way.

667
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: They have an intuitive sense about one another and a

668
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: profound love with its foundations one hundred thousand feet below

669
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: sea level. That's how powerfully connected they are. And I

670
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: think it has to do with the way they came

671
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: up together. In the case of identical twins, I do believe,

672
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: you know, people talk about a certain telepathy between identical twins.

673
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: I don't believe in that, but I do believe that

674
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: when your genome is the same, so much of your software,

675
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: your behavioral software, the geography, the topography of your brain

676
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: is the same, that you do think very similarly, that

677
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: you do act very similarly, and you are acted upon

678
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: by the world as two parts of a whole. So

679
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: it's impossible for us not to internalize how the world

680
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: sees us. So if the world sees Mark and Scott

681
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: Kelly when they were little, and they say, I don't

682
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,919
Speaker 1: know which ones Mark, I don't know which one Scott,

683
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: You're both the same guy. You will begin internalizing that. Now,

684
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: kids will eventually try to differentiate. They do want to

685
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: be different, they do want to have an identity, but

686
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: they nonetheless know that they have a unique, indistinguishable relationship

687
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: from one another. I really would think that if you

688
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: were an identical twin, that you would have, especially probably

689
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: in your teens, that you would have this intense desire

690
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: to individuate from your or not. Could you imagine looking

691
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: no at yourself. But it seems like it seems like

692
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: most twins want to sort of stay connected rather than individuate.

693
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: I do think both of those things are true. I

694
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: think twins realize that they're in a unique situation and

695
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: it's a rare situation, and it's one that's worth preserving

696
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: and treasuring. But again, especially in junior high and high school,

697
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: you want to develop your own identity. Even within families,

698
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: you see a certain de identification that goes down through

699
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: a family unit. So say if there are five children

700
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: in a family unit, the oldest child is the scholar.

701
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: The second child is going to be the academic slacker,

702
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 1: but maybe the athletic, the athletic achiever. The third one

703
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: is going to be the science nerd. The fourth one

704
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 1: is going to be the drama star because every child

705
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 1: who comes. You know. The image I use is it's

706
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: a little bit like the way leaves will naturally form

707
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: on trees so that they're never directly beneath one another,

708
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: because one leaf directly beneath another leaf isn't going to

709
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: get some so it will die. So trees evolve so

710
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: that the leaves spiral a little bit so that everyone

711
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: gets sun. The way you get son as a member

712
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: of a large family is by stepping out of the

713
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: shadow of the child above you, by finding your own area,

714
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: your own exp If we're gonna go with the leaf metaphor,

715
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 1: then the middle child syndrome is real because the middle

716
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 1: child is getting the least amount of sun. Yes, and

717
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: that's unfortunate, and middle child syndrome is a very real thing.

718
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: It is true, although again it does help to be

719
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: the only girl. But as I wrote in the book,

720
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: middle child is like spending your entire life in the

721
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: center seat of a twenty four hour flight in coach.

722
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: It sucks. There's just no way it's good. I know.

723
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: But Jeffrey, doesn't that depend on the parents, Like if

724
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: you are conscious of that absolutely, you know me and

725
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: you parent accordingly. I mean, can you not flip that,

726
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: you can flip that script and it is I promise you,

727
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: it's not destiny. But there is a sense of you

728
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: will never be the oldest, you'll never be the baby,

729
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: you will always be in the middle now, and I

730
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: don't know if you're not that, if you really understand it, right,

731
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: It's like I would never know what it's like to

732
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: be the oldest child or the baby, right. I know

733
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: that I relate very well to middle children. All my

734
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: women were older, we're the oldest, oldest, Yeah, yeah, I

735
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: think I think we do tend to be drawn to

736
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: people who are temperamentally similar to us. The downside for

737
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: middle children is that statistics show that they do tend

738
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: to have slightly less intense connections with their nuclear family,

739
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: and they do tend to take a little bit longer

740
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 1: to find their direction life. The upside of a middle

741
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: child is that they tend to have bigger, richer, denser,

742
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 1: and more robust social circles and support systems outside of

743
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: the home, because they come into the world feeling like

744
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: I don't quite get everything I needed at home, so

745
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to go out in the world. And build

746
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: it for myself. And that's not such a bad thing.

747
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: Do you think, though, that because you were the middle child,

748
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 1: you know, your way of standing out was sort of

749
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: your work ethic and going after what it is you loved,

750
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: and sort of your pursuit of that was so focused.

751
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 1: I felt like I had to scream to be heard

752
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: amongst all of the boys, and I had on top

753
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: of it. It was boys and I was the middle So,

754
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: like our parents would say, they'd hear me sometimes and

755
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: I'd give these long monologues of like fairness, I basically

756
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: like my greatest performance to nobody paying attention. And then

757
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: as I got older, I guess with that I just

758
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: became a very independent and work minded whatever that concoction

759
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: was well, and that can often, I mean, the attempt

760
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: to compensate for what you feel is either a shortcoming

761
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: in yourself or a short changing from the world can

762
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: be a very powerful thing. You know, if you felt

763
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: that you weren't getting attention, or you weren't getting fairness

764
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: from within the family, then damn it, You're going to

765
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: go out and get it from the world. Or when

766
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: I was a student, I was a terrible slacker. I

767
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: was I could have been an a student, I barely

768
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: coasted by with low b's. I did that straight through

769
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: law school, and when I finally got out into the

770
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: working world and thought now I got a hold down

771
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: a job came, I developed sort of an uber work ethic.

772
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: I became. I developed a consuming work ethic, sort of

773
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: like the person who has always been an overweight child

774
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: and then loses weight and is forever a little bit

775
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: neurotic about food, always afraid of being one slippery slope

776
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: away from going down that hill again. So I think

777
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: when you feel that you haven't gotten the attention that

778
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: you could have or should have gotten at home, you'll overcompensate,

779
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: or at least compensate and continue to do that to

780
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: make sure that throughout your life you get what you

781
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: didn't get early. It's so surprising, Jeffrey, based on the

782
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 1: work that you've done, I would have never guessed that

783
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: that was your experience in school growing up. It's a

784
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: great also lesson to kids that do struggle in school. Yeah, yeah,

785
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: that it can. Your brain can shift into you know,

786
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: maybe yours also became overachieving or or in some sense,

787
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: you know, you became a little obsessive, right about well.

788
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: And also at some level you think, ship, it's up

789
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: to me. Now. No one's going to bail me out anymore.

790
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: No parent, he's going to write a note that says

791
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: Jeffrey got a D on his test because he was

792
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: up throwing up last night. No one's going to do

793
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: I'm still you have a job. It's your job, I think, mom.

794
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 1: The other day CBS right the CBS to CBS Oliver

795
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: has gold, the Oliver has a tummy ache and won't

796
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: be coming to work today. But what about sibling competition

797
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: and how that works even from you know, from from

798
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: from youth, from toddler and beyond. How does that sort

799
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 1: of stack up? And how does that resentment either build

800
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: or not build? I mean, how does you know? What's

801
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: your take on that? It's hard because a lot of

802
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 1: if it depends on whether you are trying to achieve

803
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: in the same field or whether you are not trying

804
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: to achieve in the same field. If you want to

805
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 1: be the greatest lawyer whoever practiced law, and you want

806
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: to be the greatest doctor whoever practiced medicine, and someone

807
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: else wants to be the greatest writer whoever wrote a novel,

808
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: nobody is. I mean, if one person is succeeding more

809
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: than another, then there will be some envy. But if

810
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: you're in different fields, it's at least there's at least

811
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: your own silos. My brothers and I are all writers,

812
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: so at some point somebody is always pissed off at

813
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: someone else, someone else that's always jealous of someone else.

814
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: Who gets the most jealous. I know I will not

815
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: be allowed to come home for Thanksgiving twenty twenty if

816
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: I say that. What you're saying, though, is is that

817
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: it is It's natural. It's completely natural. My brother Steve

818
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: was was it is truly No, I know, I mean

819
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: this is sort of there's inside there's inside stuff. Because

820
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: every person that we have onto this podcast, I never

821
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: say yeah, every sibling combination, I'm like, is there envy?

822
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: There is there any sort of jealousy or sort of

823
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: God I wish and everyone's like no, no, no. And meanwhile,

824
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: I'm very open with sort of my envy of sort

825
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: of Kate's career and how successful she's been in the

826
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 1: opportunities and the experiences she's had. You know, not to

827
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: take anything away from what I've done, but I'm staying,

828
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, there is competition. There, Absolutely there's competition. In

829
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, my older brother had a wonderful play

830
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: called Bullpen. The entire play, as the name suggests, took

831
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 1: place in the bullpen of Fenway Park in Boston, and

832
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: the play opened on the Harvard Campus at Boston. My

833
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: youngest brother, who had had a playoff Broadway a couple

834
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: of years a couple of years earlier, was up at

835
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: Boston and he was helping out and there was a

836
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 1: showcase in front of the theater that had a terrible poster,

837
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: and Bruce opened up the showcase and he said, I'm

838
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: going to make this gorgeous. And he was working on

839
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: it and helping my older brother Steve, make his play perfect.

840
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: And then he suddenly stopped and said, but this should

841
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: be my evening, and it's not. It's his evening. And

842
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: he was willing to say, I want this to be

843
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: about me, and it's not about me. It's you know,

844
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: when my older brother was the first one to publish

845
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: a novel, and I smiled that sort of rectangular ridness

846
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: of a smile when I first saw it, that kind

847
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: of said I'm so very happy for you. I can't

848
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: wait to read this because I knew now the stakes

849
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 1: are are for me. I gotta write myself a novel

850
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: at some point otherwise I am not keeping pace with Steve.

851
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Now what would you say? The remedy is

852
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: for something like that so it doesn't turn into true

853
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: resentment and damage the relationship transparently. There are two things

854
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: and they are They both sound like bromides, and I

855
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: hope they don't. One of them is humility. One of

856
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 1: them is simply being able to say, you know, I

857
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: caught a break when when I wrote Apollo thirteen and

858
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: then that was made into a movie. You know, clearly

859
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: there was some sibling competition in that. But the fact was,

860
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: I just grew up as a space junkie, and I

861
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: just happened to have written Jim Lovell, the commander of

862
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: the mission, a letter right at the time that a

863
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: magazine was working for went briefly out of business. We

864
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 1: later got our jobs back, but we went briefly out

865
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: of business. I thought, well, maybe this is my time

866
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: to write a book. I happened to write Jim a letter.

867
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: He happened to have written back and said, I just retired,

868
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: so I'm actually interested in working in this working on

869
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,479
Speaker 1: this book with you. It just happened that both Ron

870
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: Howard and Tom Hanks were fascinated by this story. So

871
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: all of these amazing things came together. But it was

872
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: all serendipity. It was all just a series of tumblers

873
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: falling together. And if there were moments during that year

874
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: or two when Apollo thirteen was ubiquitous, I could say

875
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: to my brothers and mean it, I got lucky. I've

876
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: never had another movie since, so you know it just

877
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: I've written tons of books, but no more movies yet.

878
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: So having that humility is a very important thing. The

879
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: other thing is being truly openly generous with the successes

880
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: of your other brothers. When I went out and saw

881
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: my brother Steve's musical in regional theater in New Brunswick

882
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: a few months ago and last year in Kansas City,

883
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: I literally mean I smiled the entire performance. I looked

884
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: like an idiot, I looked like somebody who was on thorizine.

885
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: I just because I couldn't stop smiling. I was just

886
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: so happy for him, because this was a labor of

887
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: love for him, and he had worked hard on this.

888
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: And I think the more you can say God, I

889
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: love my sibling, and god, I love when my sibling

890
00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: is happy. The better the less competition you can feel. Yeah,

891
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,439
Speaker 1: that's true, that's great. And sometimes you have to fake

892
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 1: it till you make it. Yeah, you know, I should

893
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: probably watch some of your work. Yeah, she's never seen

894
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: a thing that I've done, which might be a good

895
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: thing because she can't dislike it. Get no, But it's true.

896
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: You sort of fake it to you make it like.

897
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: I've had moments with my siblings where there's an amp

898
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: there's been an accomplishment, and I have that initial feeling

899
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: of like directangle smile. Yeah, I'm just like ugh, And

900
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: then I'm like, you know what, just smile and fake

901
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: it for a second, and after about thirty seconds, I

902
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: actually start to feel pride in some way. Actually, that's

903
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: what social media is good for. It's bad for a

904
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: lot of things. But when I could post take a

905
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: picture of my brother Steve's play, and before the jealousy

906
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: could overtake me, I could post it and say, God,

907
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: I'm proud of what I'm about to see and my

908
00:59:55,480 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: brother hashtag Steve Klueger is the most talented guy I know. Oh,

909
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 1: post that it's out there. I can't pull it back,

910
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: and you can do it impulsively, and in that sense,

911
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: social media helps. Mm hmm. That's interesting. Yeah, no, I

912
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: know it's a good lesson. This is a great moment

913
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: for me because I'm going to do that because I

914
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: feel like I've been validated a little bit here. I mean,

915
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: like the competitive spirit, the competitive nature between siblings is real.

916
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: The frustration and the envy and the jealousy is real.

917
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: We just can't let it get to that. But it

918
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: doesn't exist for everybody. I mean, I don't feel that way. Well,

919
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: because you're at the top, I mean, Jesus no, But

920
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 1: I mean I don't. I mean, I'll look at your

921
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: you know, your ability to No, I look at your

922
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: wit and your sense of humor and your I do, I,

923
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 1: honestly do usually feel a great sense of pride when

924
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: it comes to all of his abilities and accomplishments, and

925
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: then massive disappointment when he's not doing those. Advice. Well,

926
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: that's interesting, is you know, I don't know which brother

927
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: I'm like in your family, but I'm the one who

928
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: sort of I sort of get by with a little

929
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: wit and charm and things seem to work out. But

930
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: if I dedicated myself and really sort of you know,

931
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: took some of that ambition and turned it into drive.

932
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: I could be I think I could be pretty pretty great.

933
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: You know, I definitely have the most talent in the family.

934
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: I have the most talent. You know, I have the

935
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: most talent. There's no doubt. It's just untapped, you know.

936
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: We interviewed Lisa and Laura Ling and they had a

937
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 1: really interesting story about how they grew up and they

938
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: basically raised each other. So, you know, I wanted to

939
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: know sort of what your thoughts might be about that

940
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: their parents were in the picture physically, but they really

941
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 1: truly had to rely on each other, so that sibling

942
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 1: bond sort of morphed into mother daughter, I mean, potential

943
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: best friends. So you know, how does that stand if

944
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 1: there was a an age gap, I say there's a

945
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: five year age gap. Very often the older child really

946
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: will feel a maternal or paternal sense and say, I

947
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 1: got to look after this baby, because you know, five

948
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: years may not be much, but when you're seven and

949
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: two it is. When you're ten and five, it's huge.

950
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: So the older child may really feel a premature a

951
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 1: precocious paternalism, parenthalism and the younger child will certainly cleave

952
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 1: to that. If they're closer in age, then it becomes

953
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 1: a collaborative excerpt size. And I think that was very

954
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: much the way it was for my brothers and me.

955
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: My as I say, we were very close in age.

956
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: My father was out of the picture. My mom, I

957
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 1: don't want to speak of her badly, but she as

958
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: a suburban mom in the nineteen fifties and sixties. She

959
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 1: had one of those suburban mom prescription drug issues where

960
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: you know, not street drugs, all the barbituates that poor

961
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 1: suburban moms were getting prescribed. So she wasn't always emotionally present.

962
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: So my brothers and I were looking after each other,

963
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,439
Speaker 1: and we were taking each other to school, and we

964
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: were intervening if there was a problem, and we were

965
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: we were inter we were mediating when there were fights,

966
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: and we looked after one another and made sure there

967
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: was food in the house. In that sense, I think,

968
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: in that crucible I think we grew a lot closer. Now,

969
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: that's not the ideal way to grow close. Obviously, you

970
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: want a house with two functioning parents and with a

971
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: functioning relationship, But it says something else about the human

972
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 1: condition that you can take calamity and you can say

973
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: we are nimble enough, we're robust enough, we are resourceful

974
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: enough that we can turn this very bad thing into

975
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: a very good thing by drawing together and looking after

976
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 1: each other. Can siblings be too close? Yes, they can

977
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: be too close? Did you watch Game of Thrones? Sorry,

978
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: I actually think my youngest brother, Bruce, and I were

979
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: a little bit too close. When we first moved to

980
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: New York. We were just a couple of years apart,

981
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: and we were very, very dependent on each other. We

982
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 1: both had girlfriends at the time, and we were cycling

983
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 1: through girlfriends, and all of the girls and women we

984
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: were seeing said I'd like to spend a little bit

985
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: more time with you and not with your brother. And

986
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 1: I think I refracted a lot of myself through my

987
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: brother Bruce, and I think he refracted himself through me.

988
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: And I think when we finally had strong female partners

989
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: who said let's back away just a little bit, I

990
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 1: think that helped us become more independent and sort of

991
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: breathe on our own. We still remain very close, we

992
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: still do to this day, but we were able at

993
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: least to find ourselves a little bit. Wow. Yeah, I

994
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: would imagine that's what a lot of twins might go through. Well, yeah, well,

995
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: there needs to be an individuation process. You know, that's

996
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: exactly right, especially when you're in relationships. It must be

997
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 1: an actual issue. If say you're an only child and

998
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: you fall in love with someone who has four siblings, right,

999
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 1: and you you don't really understand that dynamic in any way,

1000
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: that must definitely be challenging. Thrown into the fire. Yeah,

1001
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: thrown into the fire. Now. One of the things that

1002
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: was interesting in the book I did write about only children,

1003
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 1: and my book required me to hold two seemingly contradictory

1004
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 1: thoughts in my mind at the same time. One of

1005
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: them was, if you have siblings, these will be the

1006
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: most important people in your lives, the most socializing people

1007
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 1: in your life, the people with whom you will dress,

1008
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: rehearse for life, the people with whom you will test

1009
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 1: drive life. And at the same time, if you have

1010
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: no siblings, you're going to do just fine because you

1011
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: will find those relationships elsewhere. You'll find them with cousins,

1012
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 1: you'll find them with school friends. You also, by living

1013
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: in a home with just parents, with just adults, tend

1014
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: to develop more sophisticated senses of humor, a greater sense

1015
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: of how the world works, a greater vocabulary, a greater

1016
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 1: sense of self containment, of being able to sit quietly

1017
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:22,480
Speaker 1: with yourself. So being an only child is not, as

1018
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: psychologists used to think, a state of likely pathology, because

1019
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: you'll grow up selfish and you'll grow up narcissistic. It's

1020
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 1: simply not the case. But isn't there sort of a

1021
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: personality with only children, Because I know that all of

1022
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: my I have a lot of really close friends that

1023
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: are only children, and there is a similarity to the

1024
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: way that they are in relationships with their friends. How

1025
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: so I'm interested in it. I think that their attachments

1026
01:07:56,120 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 1: are sometimes very intense. I do think a lot depends

1027
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 1: on how they grew up. If they grew up with

1028
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 1: a big cousin circle, if they grew up with a

1029
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 1: big friendship circle, if they grew up with parents who

1030
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 1: took care to make sure that they were in sports

1031
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 1: teams or art clubs or debate societies so that their

1032
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 1: schedules were filled. Not so much the overfilling of schedules

1033
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 1: that parents in the two thousands have done, that the

1034
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 1: child must be constantly working, but if parents take care

1035
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:39,799
Speaker 1: to make sure that their only children are continually in

1036
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: a full immersion environment of other children, I do think

1037
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 1: that helps a lot. I don't, obviously don't know the

1038
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: history of your friends. They may have been that way

1039
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 1: and they may still feel very needy, but it's also

1040
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: possible that they grew up feeling a little bit lonelier

1041
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 1: and a little bit more bereft, and thus when they

1042
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: find a friend like you, they think, I got a

1043
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 1: hold tight to this person. I mean, even just but

1044
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: even I mean, look, I can't generalize this, but you know,

1045
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 1: having three kids, I feel like as an only child

1046
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:13,839
Speaker 1: you would have to grow up a little more lonely.

1047
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I look at my kids playing together, or

1048
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: my two boys still sleep in the same room together,

1049
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: and they're laughing and they have inside jokes, and there's

1050
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: such a connection there that goes beyond anything that my

1051
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 1: wife and I even know, because they have their own

1052
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: little world, you know, And I think that is so

1053
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: special and important. Is in sort of in their development

1054
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: becoming who they are as adults. Or if you're an

1055
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: only child, you have more opportunity to be innovative and

1056
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 1: internalize and imaginative, right, right, I have a dear friend

1057
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: from Baltimore, where I grew up, who is an only child,

1058
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 1: and he has an only child, and he said what

1059
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 1: he admires about his son. His son is a wonderful guitarist.

1060
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: And he said he admires the fact that his son

1061
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 1: could sit quietly, completely absorbed, for long periods of time

1062
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:20,719
Speaker 1: in learning to master this instrument. Now, I don't think

1063
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 1: that comes from loneliness. I don't think that comes from

1064
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 1: a lack of alternative sources. He could have been online

1065
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: on a computer, he could have been watching TV. Instead,

1066
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: he had the quiet self containment to decide, I'm going

1067
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 1: to practice this very difficult thing and become expert at it. Jeffrey,

1068
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 1: I need quiet self containment. Well, I think maybe they

1069
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 1: promotes self sustainability. I mean, if you think about it.

1070
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to say about the need

1071
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 1: for self containment is the other side of that can

1072
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 1: be that when you grow up in a family of

1073
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:11,600
Speaker 1: a lot of kids, you need the constant stimulation. You know.

1074
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:16,600
Speaker 1: I work for Time Magazine. We just moved to beautiful

1075
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 1: new offices on Bryan Park, and when I first looked

1076
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 1: at the floor plan, I saw that my desk my

1077
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: area of my work area was all the way by

1078
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: the southern wall, and I thought, oh my god, we're

1079
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,600
Speaker 1: going to be all alone there, and I'm going to

1080
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:38,600
Speaker 1: feel very isolated. And then I realized that since I

1081
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 1: am at the edge of the office, in order to

1082
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: get anywhere in the office to the kitchen, to the

1083
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 1: bathroom to a meeting room, I have to move through

1084
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: an entire population of people. And I love that because

1085
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 1: that hundred yard walk to the bathroom means I have

1086
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 1: five opportunities to encounter people and say something dumb or

1087
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 1: something goofy, or check in on something that has to

1088
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: be done, or just compliment someone on a piece of

1089
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: a story she had just written that I loved. And

1090
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 1: I like the fact that physically I'm required to interact

1091
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:22,839
Speaker 1: a lot. And I wonder if I were an only child,

1092
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 1: if I wouldn't have that constant need for reaching out. Yeah. No,

1093
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 1: that's a great perspective. It's so true. If you were

1094
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:35,600
Speaker 1: to pass on, like the pearl of wisdom, if you

1095
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,879
Speaker 1: only had like one thing to say to your daughters

1096
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 1: about their relationship. You know, if it was your last

1097
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 1: opportunity to say something to your girls about that, what

1098
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: would that be. What would that sound like. I think

1099
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:54,719
Speaker 1: it would be, and I feel this will just sound

1100
01:12:55,840 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: like a Hallmark card. No slur on Hallmark, but treasure

1101
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 1: each other. You are people from the same test tube,

1102
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 1: You are people from the same environment. You are people

1103
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 1: who share this great commingling of genes, this great commingling

1104
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 1: of experiences. Nobody in the world can read you and

1105
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: intuit you the way your sister can read you and

1106
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 1: into it. You cherish that love that be there for

1107
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: each other that way. My hope is that they both

1108
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 1: live to be at least one hundred and five, and

1109
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 1: at their one hundred and third and one hundred and

1110
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,839
Speaker 1: fifth birthdays they're still there blowing out one another's candles

1111
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:47,840
Speaker 1: and still quarreling. But that's okay as long as they're

1112
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: still together. Your relationship with your sister is something that

1113
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 1: no one else in the world has. Cherish it because

1114
01:13:55,560 --> 01:14:01,759
Speaker 1: it's breakable, but it's also infinitely preservable. Jeff, that's great,

1115
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: But I have one more question. Do you think there

1116
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:08,720
Speaker 1: is life on other planets? Yes? Yes, thank you for

1117
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 1: asking me. I believe. Here is my quick answer to that. Yeah.

1118
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 1: There are two schools of thought. The life is hard

1119
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 1: thought and the Life is Easy thought. There are lots

1120
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 1: of people. Paul Davies from the University of California, I

1121
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 1: think you cal wrote a book called The Eerie Silence,

1122
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:30,160
Speaker 1: and he believes that it is mathematically so improbable that

1123
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:32,839
Speaker 1: human beings, that life would have evolved, that we really

1124
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 1: might be the only thing I strongly believe in the

1125
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: life is Easy theory, and the Life is Easy theory

1126
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 1: requires three things. Chemistry, energy, and time. We've got a

1127
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:48,880
Speaker 1: universe full of chemistry. We've got a universe full of

1128
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:52,639
Speaker 1: energy in terms of the electromagnetic spectrum and heat from

1129
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 1: suns and we got thirteen point eight billion years that

1130
01:14:56,560 --> 01:15:00,519
Speaker 1: the universe has been around. If we are alone, the

1131
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 1: universe has a lot of wasted space in it. Mm

1132
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 1: hmm woah. Yeah, answer, that's right. Life is easy, baby.

1133
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 1: That's the name of this podcast. Life There's easy, Life

1134
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 1: is easy. There's there's siblings, there's alien siblings. Siblings absolutely.

1135
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:22,160
Speaker 1: But by the way, you never know. One day there

1136
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: might be an alien twenty three and me and we

1137
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:28,800
Speaker 1: could be related to some other crazy alien. That's right.

1138
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:32,640
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Klueger could be an alien himself. Oh, now the

1139
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 1: story is out now I have to confess that I'm

1140
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:43,960
Speaker 1: going into this protection now. They really really fun And

1141
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:47,640
Speaker 1: because I'll leave with this, this is the basis of

1142
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:51,879
Speaker 1: our podcast. I mean, you are the sort of premiere

1143
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 1: pinnacle guest in a sense because we are exploring sibling relationships.

1144
01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:59,640
Speaker 1: This is our This is our sort of you know,

1145
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 1: our our hypotheses of what we're supposed to be doing. No,

1146
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 1: what is it? That's okay, what is it? I don't know.

1147
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 1: This is the foundation of what our podcast is. Yeah,

1148
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:12,559
Speaker 1: that's better English. Let me just say in return that

1149
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:17,799
Speaker 1: extended interviews aren't They can be hard, they can be easy.

1150
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 1: I have had so much fun with you guys. Oh,

1151
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 1: you just know you're terrific at doing this. I could

1152
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:26,280
Speaker 1: have done this for another hour and a half. I

1153
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 1: had a really good deal with you. Sibling Revelry is

1154
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 1: executive produced by Kate Hudson, Olira Hudson, and Simsarna. Supervising

1155
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 1: producer is Alison Presnik. Editor is Josh Wendish. Music by

1156
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 1: Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mar