1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: with David Gura. Daily we bring you insight from the 3 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: best of economics, finance, investment, and international relations. Find Bloomberg 4 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot Com, and of course, 5 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Henry Coffin with us now in our 6 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg eleven three studios, formerly with Tommon Brothers. He's the 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: author of the book Tectonic Shifts in Financial Markets, People, 8 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: Policies and Institutions. He's the president of Henry Coffman and Company. 9 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: Great to see him once again. You uh. The waiting 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: continues here we we we await a decision from the president. 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: Who will be the next fed Share. Perhaps they'll be 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: fed Share Jenny Ellen renewed for a second term, perhaps 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: it will be someone else. What should a president, what 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: should a Treasury secretary? What should a chief of staff 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: be considering at this point as they make this to decision, 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: as they pick the next FED chair, what what should 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: they be considering? Broadly speaking, Well, they want the first 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: of all, have an awareness of the candidates experience. Financial 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: experience is very helpful. Having an academic background in banking, finance, 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: and economic theory is also extremely helpful. Being able to 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: manage others around the chair, meaning the other members of 22 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: the Board of Governors or the f O m C, 23 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: who are usually PhD s. Those people have to be led, 24 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: they have to be managed, to have to be influenced, 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: and someone coming from the outside with limited experience will 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: have some problems in doing that. Is that the hardest 27 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: thing to assess in advance. We talk about John Taylor, 28 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: the professor at Stanford, with a lot of government experience. 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: Kevin worsh It's hard to estimate how somebody will be 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: able to interact with others on the board, or bring 31 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: them on board, or work with them. How do you 32 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: just begin to to figure out how somebody might do 33 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: with that. Well, some of these people, uh John Taylor, 34 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: of course, who was Under Secretary of the Treasury, so 35 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: he has had considerable government experience. When you go back 36 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: through the history of the Federal Reserve chairs, uh. Bill Martin, 37 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: who was the first prominent one in the postwar period, 38 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: began in nineteen fifty one and served for the longest 39 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: until nineteen sixty eight. He had been at the Treasury. 40 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: He had been chairman of the New York Stock Exchange. 41 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: He had also been the head of the Exploit Import Bank. 42 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: He had considerable background and knowledge and took a lot 43 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: of courses. On the other hand, Uh. There thereafter you 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: had Author Burns, who was second, who was the chairman 45 00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: of the the Economic Advisors at one time, was an 46 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: expert on business cycles and saw it. And but nevertheless, 47 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: I can recite all of these for you with their 48 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: background and experience, A good many of them had to 49 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: check it experience. As chair we have all that experience, 50 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: with all that knowledge and managing, they didn't perform as 51 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: well as they should have. I want to talk one 52 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: more question the fed that we got to get to 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: extremely important headlines for Global Wall Street and we're honored 54 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: to have you here. Uh. Dr Kaufman, let me reducts 55 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: the question from television earlier. Can John Taylor be a 56 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: dove or is he so rules bound that we're going 57 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: to be hawk hawk hawk? Uh. The little I know 58 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: about John Taylor, you can only be a dove if 59 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: it fits within his formula, within his formula. Uh. And 60 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: you don't think there's enough fungibility in the formula or 61 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: within his Boston speech recently to calm those that worry 62 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: about a restrictive John Taylor, there there is a certain 63 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: amount that can give within his formula. And as I 64 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: said to you before, here we are in two thousand seventeen. 65 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: The unemployment rate is four and a half but below 66 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: four and a half percent, and labor compensation hasn't got up. 67 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: Isn't that an extraordinary event over the last eight nine years. 68 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: One of our things to talk about here are the 69 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: headlines in all of global Wall Street. We say good 70 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: morning to you in London on Radio London, of course, 71 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: in Awakening East Coast and at New York, but truly 72 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: to all of our listeners worldwide. David, why don't you 73 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: run through these important headlines from the Securities and Exchange Commits. 74 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: We were speaking with Ben Bayne that last week about 75 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: what the SEC was considering with regard to these Miffed rules, 76 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: and we're getting some more clarity on that this morning. 77 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: The SEC is saying it's going to ask for public 78 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: comments on the market impact of these new MIFED rules. 79 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: The SEC is going to give a thirty month reprieve 80 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: to u S firms on EU research rules. And here 81 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: the annoucement addressing me fed conflict with EU on on 82 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: payments issues in particular. So those are the main headlines 83 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: here that we're getting from the Security Exchange Commission in Washington. 84 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: Of course, Henry Kaufman, with his legendary work and modern work, 85 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: I should say it's Salomon Brothers some years ago, is 86 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: a perfect person to speak about the ft. Had the 87 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: article yesterday Robin Wigglesworth. Uh, the the idea of Bank 88 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: of America becoming an investment advisor to accept hard dollars, 89 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: to accept cash because they've got to worry Bank of America, 90 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: New York, San Francisco. Uh, the Carolinas has to worry 91 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: about their London clients. This is a real international issue, 92 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: isn't it. It is an important issue. But the issue 93 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: is how do you maintain the independence of research? How 94 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: do you hold research accountable to be always objective? Can 95 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: you have two regimes? A New York regime of compensation 96 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: to the south Side, etcetera, and a separate regime in 97 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: Europe and particularly in the city. I think that's exceedingly difficult, 98 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: really auditorialized, David. But we're going there right now. And 99 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: as I told you, the only way research can be 100 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: objective in a cell research environment is when the head 101 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: of research sits in the senior management with all the 102 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: other leaders on executive I'm going to hope that James 103 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: Diamonds listening to this conversation this morning. What is your 104 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: advice to Mr Diamond? He's got four hundred and twenty 105 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: two reports and he's got to figure out what to 106 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: do with a dynamic between London and New York. What 107 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: is your advice to Jamie Diamond? I advise is bring 108 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: the head of research into the senior management so that 109 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: he oversees the extent to which objectivity is maintained in analysis. 110 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: Because if you sit on top of the other four 111 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: or five, if that who comes up but defended, but 112 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: come on off of vocal rule and Dodd Frank. The 113 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: Europeans want to police global wall streets intellectual output. That's irrefutable. 114 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: That's what they want to do, and we see that 115 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: through MEFO to this is absolutely critical. Do you agree 116 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: with the Europeans that we should police research or should 117 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: the SEC stand up and say no, we're not going 118 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: to do this longer than the thirty month headline this morning? Well, 119 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: I I would say, research should be policed for its objectivity, 120 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: otherwise it doesn't serve well the client, and it doesn't 121 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: serve well the institution ultimately, and it will always be 122 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: then looked at as being sell side research. And the 123 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: definition of sell side research is to push the product, 124 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: to push the item, to push the underwriting, to push 125 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: the sale or the purchase of stock, and the the 126 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: the investor ultimately becomes aware of this very quickly. We'll 127 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: come back up with you in just a moment. But 128 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: how seismic it change? Do you think this is gonna be? 129 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: There so much concerned about what it's gonna mean for 130 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: for jobs and for this part of the economy as well. 131 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: How worried are you about the implementation of these rules? Well, 132 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: I I really think, uh, the number of people in 133 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: research is going to diminish. It's going to diminish, not 134 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: only because of what you're talking about, but we were 135 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: we're creating more exchange traded funds. We are at the 136 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: same time doing much more. We've got much more money 137 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: going into Van Gone and all of the passive investment. 138 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: Let's do this. Let's come back and talk about this. 139 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: We're honored if Henry Kaufman with us. With these important 140 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: headlines from the Security and Exchange Commission, they will ask 141 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: for public comments on method. Uh. They don't put it down. 142 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: They don't pump the ball down the street. They go 143 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: the thirty months three zero thirty months reprieved the U 144 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: S firms on European research rules. I think that's a 145 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: critical headline and they make clear, uh, Wall Street firms 146 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: can accept research payments from EU clients. Much more on 147 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: this important issue with Dr Kaufman. I think the doll 148 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: was like twelve points when Henry Kaufman started his career. 149 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: Where was the doubt when you walked in the Wall 150 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: Street door? Oh my goodness, I walked into Wall Street 151 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: door door in January of nineteen sixty two, I walked 152 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: into Sottomon. It must have been in the hundreds. Hundreds, Yeah, 153 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: I would say the middle. We'll look that up with 154 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: David Wilson has that statistic available. He has actually memorized. Um. 155 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: I sure everybody wants to know that you just celebrated 156 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: your ninetieth birthday. What is the key to Kaufman longevity? 157 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: As people know as we go through this, I don't 158 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: do this, doctor Doom Bologna. You've always been an upbeat 159 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: guy forgetting about the cliches of another time and space. 160 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: What is the Kaufman longevity formula? Gura and I are 161 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: taking notes? Well, I suspect it's have good genes. Uh, 162 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: and it sound like a glass come out help me here? 163 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: Is it like a glass of tomato juice every morning? 164 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: And and stay active, stay active, don't retire. It would 165 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: be one of them. Stay active, David, Why don't you 166 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: jump in here with Henry Kaufman after these SEC headlines 167 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: too many other topics. Yeah, we're looking ahead to the 168 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: CCB meetings. They've been listening to what that policy makers 169 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: have been saying, and I noticed that more and more 170 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: of them are talking about the role the technology is 171 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: playing when it comes to productivity and wage growth and 172 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: all of that. As you see what's what's the role 173 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: the technology is playing in the economy, And when you 174 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: look at the data, that is a very key issue 175 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: which hasn't been appreciated. There is a tectonic shift occurring 176 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: actually which I didn't bring out in the book. And 177 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: that's the and and that's the following. We have seen 178 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: very little increase in wages in the last eight nine years, 179 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: but we seen an extraordinary increase in corporate profits, I bill, 180 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: and it's I believe what is occurring is a great 181 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: obsolescence in labor, in the value of labor as the 182 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: result of automation, robots, UH, factories that can be built 183 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: all over the world rather than in one place, and 184 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: the technological increase that has occurred with such rapidity that 185 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: it is marginalizing labor. Much in the old days, in 186 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, in the nineteen early sixties, there were unions, 187 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: unions that of course UH got higher wages for their 188 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: members and they constrained corporate profits somewhat. That has gone here, 189 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: and it's a really long term social problem. As is 190 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: widening up occurs. Ask yourself the simple question, has labor 191 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: compensation remains modest? What kind of corporate pensions going to 192 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: be there years from down to help in retirements? Well, 193 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: we're there right now, Alicia Mannell up at Boston College, 194 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: has of people not actually justified in their retirement. Within 195 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: these broader issues is our quest for hard data. You 196 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: are one of the leaders of looking at hard data. 197 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: Do you observe in service and goods inflation? The hard 198 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: data that can let a set of good central bankers 199 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: raise rates. Now, I I think, as you know, Mrs 200 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: ms Yell raises the question, and she hasn't got an answer, 201 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: why isn't the inflation rate higher? So here's a policymaker 202 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: at the highest level is highly uncertain for this relatively 203 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: modest growth in abric compensation. And I it comes from 204 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:10,359 Speaker 1: really the fact that labor is becoming more obsolescent. Robots 205 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: are replacing labor. Uh. I saw recently a garbage struck. 206 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: In my days, in garbage struck used to be manned 207 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: by a driver and two men. Now I saw a 208 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: garbage struck with a driver moving along. There weren't the 209 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: two men. And what happened there was a crane that 210 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: picked up the garbage pail, dumped it and put it down. 211 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: As now, in about twenty years there won't even be 212 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: a driver on that on that car. And if you 213 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: you don't have to split your imagination far, in twenty 214 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: five years a lot of taxis will be driven without 215 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: a driver. And this goes on and on. A friend 216 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: of mine who was just in Japan told me of 217 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: a robot walking into a patient's room gives the patient 218 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: a pill if the patient doesn't take the bill, an 219 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: attendant comes a little and then the robot picks up 220 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: the patient and puts him in a wheelchair. Now this 221 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: is really but in this replacement that's going, well, we've 222 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: got a circle back. Here's the point. You're ninety years old, 223 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: you're not in a wheelchair. We want to know why. Well, 224 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: let's leave with your Henry caufin with us and what 225 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: will happen and again uh soon. It is a wonderful book. 226 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: I can't say enough about tectonic shifts in financial markets, 227 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: people policies, and institutions, and I would really emphasize the 228 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: people part of it. It's a beautiful book. You just 229 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: want to buy the book because it feels so good. 230 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: From Paul Gray McMillan as well. But the real issue here, 231 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: for particularly those of you of a younger vintage, it 232 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: is a beautiful way to get a sense of history 233 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: of where we were and how we got the two 234 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: thousand seven in beyond, it's even got a lot on 235 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: Walter Riston, which is a very good thing as well. 236 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: Henry Kaufman, of course for years with Solomon Brothers and 237 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: with an association with Lehman Brothers, which we didn't have 238 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: time to talk about, but we'll do that another time. 239 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: We do uh economics, finance, investment, international relations, we do politics, 240 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: and we do our military, and I think, David, we 241 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: get more misinformation and we struggle more to get informed 242 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: guests on the military than any other thing we deal with. 243 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: And that's why we were on a day of Admiral 244 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: James Travitis with us at Tufts and General Kimmitt comes 245 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: on as a really interesting guy in general with a 246 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: c f A, an important financial degree. And it's also 247 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: why we have George Friedman on because he read James 248 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: as a kid. He knows every book, every ship, even worse, 249 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: you knows where every boat is. And literally, David, it 250 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: could be a three hour conversation. Absolutely. George Freeman here 251 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: with us in our eleven three studios in the Earth, 252 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: the founder and chairman of Political Future. Let's get to 253 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: that in just a minute. First, let me ask you 254 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: about the news of the day. We've been following what's 255 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: been going on in Northern Spain, waiting to hear from 256 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: the president of the region a little bit later about 257 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: the path forward. There could be a call for for 258 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: new elections there. What do you make of of what's 259 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: playing out there. Where do you think this is leading to, 260 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: not just in Spain, in this region and in Spain, 261 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: but in Europe generally? What is it? What is it? 262 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: What's the message about the integrity or the health of 263 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: the European experiment? Well where this comes from his two 264 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: thousand eight. This is the really important part of two 265 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. I hate to say this the people 266 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: in the market, but that was a preface. What has 267 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: happened is that it has created massive inequalities in Europe, 268 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: failed economies, um a lot of pretense by the elite, 269 00:16:53,760 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: and now you're seeing fragmentation. Scotland almost seceded from the Okay, 270 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: now Catalonia. These are two three hundred year arrangements that 271 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: are coming. Apart the Italians, there will be others coming. 272 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: So what we're seeing here is what economic is all about. 273 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: It becomes politics, and it becomes politics where the whole 274 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, you're talking about tectonic shifts, Mr Kaufman, this 275 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: is a tectonic shift. We think two thousand and eight 276 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: is over because interest rates are savalizing. Oh no, Catalogna 277 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: is two thousand eight large. Our politics playing a greater 278 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: role in the economy in policy than they have in 279 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: the past. I think of just what happened with Brexit, 280 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: what happened with the U S election, the rise of 281 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: populism that we saw. When when you look at the economy, 282 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: how big role is politics playing at this point? Well, 283 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: the economy is politics. The tax code, the regulations of 284 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: the political pressures all affected. Uh when things are rolled, 285 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: the stable is is feeling that did the markets operate 286 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: on their own? But historically, I mean, what made the 287 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: Great expansion possible was World War Two and that was 288 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: pretty political and that's set the stage for a generation 289 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: of growth Vietnam intern I think we should rip up 290 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: the scripture. Dr Kissinger, among others, has talked about the 291 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: refugee migrant moment in Europe is to be almost transcentry, 292 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: to go across centuries of historical experiment, and we've seen 293 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: recently the politics of Austria, the politics of the Czech Republic. 294 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: How does George Friedman filter not so much the fact 295 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: of migrants and refugees in Europe, but the scale of it, 296 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: the amplitude of the last twelve months, and the breathtaking 297 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: indifference by the elite to the entire process, because from 298 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 1: a European point of view, the Germans and the German 299 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: elite were very generous, but they weren't going to live 300 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: in the same neighborhoods with them. The people who wanted 301 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: I thought the migrants should come in were very kind, 302 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: but they weren't going to be the ones paying the 303 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: price of social dislocation and everything else. Like when I 304 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,959 Speaker 1: moved to the Bronx from Hungary. Uh, everybody was very 305 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: kind to me, but they weren't living there and it 306 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: was a tough neighborhood. So the issue here is I 307 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: came here fifty two, I was wek united. They think 308 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: you are a communist. I mean, was it the enough 309 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: a shift that you were the little kid that was 310 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: a comy because that's how we felt, were the kids 311 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: in fifty six and the debris after that. No, we 312 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: were afraid of the Puerto Ricans, and we were afraid 313 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: of the Italians, and we were afraid of Irish and 314 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: they were afraid of us. So when you have immigration, 315 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: you have social instability. And so the people who didn't 316 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: want it were regarded as immoral, you know, you know, 317 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: dark people who don't understand that they're evil. This ripped 318 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: here of apart. It wasn't the migration, but the manner 319 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: in which the same people have out of Trump we're presented. 320 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: So we have a massive split between the elite, who 321 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: sees themselves as moral judges, and the working class and 322 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: poorer who see themselves bearing the burden of the generosity 323 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: of the elite. Let me ask you about the negotiations 324 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: over NAFTA, and we're talking about politics being the economy 325 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: and perhaps vice versa. There, what do you make of 326 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: the signaling that we've seen here? You have negotiation teams 327 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: from these three countries working on rehashing that deal. All 328 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: the while you have one of the three nations set 329 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: of states raising the spectrum terminating the deal. Uh, there's 330 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: some political signaling, if if any, how optimistic are you 331 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: that this process is going to play out? And how 332 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: destabilizing would it be to have no trade deal for 333 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: any period of time between these three countries. I'll give 334 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: one fact. The largest export partner of California is Mexico. 335 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: The card largest export partner of Texas is Mexico. You've 336 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: got the largest Republican, the largest Democratic UH representatives in 337 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: Washington and the last thing they want is anything that 338 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: screws up NAFTA. So every doesn't matter what the negotiators do, 339 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: and it doesn't much matter what the President wants. This 340 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: is going to be decided ultimately in Congress. Can you 341 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 1: say this about tax reform? Can you say the same 342 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: thing about Texas. It doesn't have that kind of coalition. 343 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: It doesn't have that. It doesn't have California and Texas 344 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: the first and the second largest delegations pulling in others 345 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: saying basically, we don't want a basic change. Okay, Texas 346 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: guy other than Austin, Good morning Austin Texas. Good morning, 347 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: Mr Dell. Other than Austin, Texas. How many Democrats are 348 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: left in Texas? Would all be je No? The state? Uh, 349 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: he would devel the state because all the Democrats became Republicans. 350 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: This was always a conservative state. It was a conservative 351 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: democratic strait, and now it's what it was. Really changed. 352 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: It somewhat is the tension between Senator Cruz and Senator Cornyn. 353 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: But the Trump movement itself hasn't changed the safe that much. 354 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: You don't see a shift in the Trump I mean, 355 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: I just saw an MSNBC banner talking about the overnight 356 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: polling and the president's at new low. And in all 357 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: of that, do you see in your neck of the woods? Uh, 358 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: people walking away from the president or is he still 359 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: had that core base? They don't know what to walk to. 360 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: So the problem that we really have is, Okay, my 361 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: neighbors in Hayes County, I have problems with Trump. The 362 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: problem is the system hasn't presented an alternative. The alternative 363 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: is going back to Obama. They really didn't like Obama. 364 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: So in Texas you've got them locked in and the 365 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: party has marked in very quickly. Here one more question 366 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: to the Democrats. Have anybody that understands the five sided 367 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: walls of the Pentagon? Are there any William Cohen or 368 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: John Carries out there that actually understand you gotta budget 369 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: this stuff? Well, I think the basic problem of the 370 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: think tanks in Washington. They're really smart people all work 371 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: the think tanks. The think tanks are funded by various 372 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: corporate interests there. They're going to put that out. The 373 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: days when you had independent defense analysts in both parties 374 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: were limited. The best people there you have with the 375 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: former generals. They're not working for the think tanks. They 376 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: do know the budget, and that's I think one of 377 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: the most smart things that Trump did. He reached down, 378 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: got a group of generals to run it, and they 379 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: hadn't spend their time at Berking's, in Heritage and everywhere else. 380 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: Gideon Rosa's Foreign Affairs magazine leads off with an article 381 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: on Afghanistan. Does George Freeman have an Afghanistan policy? Leave? Look? 382 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: We can't wait, That's what David Girl's policy is. I mean, look, 383 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: we we can't. We can't. We have no strategy, we 384 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: have no goals that are achievable. We are there because 385 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: it's harder politically to leave than to stay, So we 386 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: leave a token number of troops that aren't gonna do anything. 387 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: So George Freeman, thank you for letting me monopolize a conversation. 388 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: Girls over there doing his taxes while on the gird doctrine. 389 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: The news slow this morning is extraordinary and too short 390 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: to visit with Arthur love At, the former chairman of 391 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: the SEC, Arthur I was amazed at the forty eight 392 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: hour news slow of an SEC really saying something about 393 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: the changing of how research gets paid in London. Henry 394 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: Kaufman said this morning there has to be one model. 395 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,719 Speaker 1: Do you agree there needs to be one global model 396 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: for research, intellectual and sell side compensation or could Wall 397 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: Street in New York go to loone. I think it 398 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: would be spectacular if we could have one model, but 399 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: just judging from different cultures, it is unlikely that we 400 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: will wind up with one model. I think as far 401 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: as myfort is concerned. The flashpoint obviously are on research payments, 402 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: which ends the practice of asset managers receiving research were 403 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: free from banks and brokers in return for placing trades 404 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: with them. Now, how are you going to make sure 405 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: that that really holds? And I think the whole question 406 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: of the responsibility that goes with becoming an investment advisor, 407 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: which is what the Bank of America Merrill Lynch has done. 408 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: I suspect that if they go ahead on this, we're 409 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: going to see all of the major players file as 410 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: investment advisors and that carries with responsibilities that they've never had. 411 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: To say, exactly a big change or what does this 412 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: say to you about timing and out the the SEC's 413 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: ability to reckon with what's happening here in just a 414 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: matter of months this no action relief. Jake Layton says 415 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: the chairman. The SEC designed with input from a range 416 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: of market participants to reduce confusion and operational difficulties. We're 417 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: looking at thirty months, a period of thirty months during 418 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: which we could get common from participants in the marketplace. 419 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: Why did this happen sooner? Uh? This is such a 420 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: difficult area and a mistake has implications not just for 421 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: US markets but for global markets. I think Jay Clayton 422 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: has done a superb job of responding to many of 423 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: the issues that have UH acted the SEC. And I 424 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: think he's taking the right steps here because if he miscalculates, 425 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: as I said before, the implications to global markets conclude great. 426 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: I think done exactly what he should do. Arthur, you 427 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: mentioned the cultural realities of a transatlantic global Wall Street, 428 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: the city, and and the rest is well. One final question, 429 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: if we may in two rushed a morning, there is 430 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: the cultural difference of just stay and American at Barclays, 431 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: a British British British bank. Just think of Premier football, folks. 432 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: Is Jeff Staley's tenure under threat because of the miserable 433 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: results this morning in the stock down seven? You'd have 434 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: to say that about any CEO of a company with 435 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: that kind of stock performance. I don't know enough about 436 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: the culture, the management culture within the company to say 437 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: one way or the other. But in these days any 438 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: company that Joe's results and disappointing such as this, the 439 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: CEO has got to be very, very careful and look 440 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: behind Arthur. Thank you so much on short notice this morning, 441 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: and really on it to me an historic day for 442 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: the Securities and Exchange Commission honor to speak with their 443 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: former chairman, Arthur Lovett. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg 444 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 445 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at 446 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: Tom Keene. David Gura is at David Gura. Before the podcast, 447 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: you can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio.