WEBVTT - Assessing the Racial Wealth Gap 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.080 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.600 You know, my company, Katie Kuric Media, wouldn't get to 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:13.840 do all the cool things we do like bring you 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.520 this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.800 and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.840 one of those, is Ally. On the last episode in 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.720 this series, I sat down with Alli Senior Director of 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.760 Financial Health and Wellness, Jack Howard. We spoke about how 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:37.200 money stories influence our financial decision making. On today's episode, 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.800 we're digging even deeper. We'll be talking about the racial 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.640 wealth gap and the systemic and historical factors that have 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:50.720 contributed to pervasive and seemingly intractable financial inequality. With the 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.479 help of two amazing guests, we're taking a look at 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.960 the causes of economic injustice, as well as how to 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:01.040 navigate a new path forward. I'll be speaking with Chloe McKenzie, 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:06.280 founder of blackfam, an organization dedicated to reimagining wealth opportunities 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.920 for black women. But first from The Washington Post financial 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:16.120 columnist Michelle Singletary. Michelle's award winning ten part series Sincerely, 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:22.120 Michelle addressed common misconceptions involving race and inequality, and it 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.959 really helped so many people understand the roots of the 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:32.360 racial wealth gap. I'm really excited to have Michelle here today. Michelle, 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:33.200 great to see you. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.800 Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate having this opportunity. 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.880 I know, Michelle, you were prompted to really begin this 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:46.400 work focusing on race and money following the murder of 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:52.000 George Floyd. Can you tell me how that inspired you 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:57.559 to try to tackle this really important but often ignored issue. 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:02.120 Yeah. So, for most of my career, like many black Americans, 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.760 have dealt with race issues on my job in the community, 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.600 and I'll be honest, I didn't talk about it a 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.480 lot because when you do, people say things like, oh, 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:18.720 you're playing the race card or you're too sensitive, and 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.840 so for most of my career, even though I've written 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:26.160 about discrimination, particularly as it relates to personal finance, personally, 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.760 I didn't talk a lot about it. And then after 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.880 the death of George Floyd, that whole summer of reckoning 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.600 I'm going to tear up now. I just said, I 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.359 can't be silent anymore. I can't be afraid of the 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.440 blowback of talking about what it's like to be black 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:50.960 in America. Like now it's twenty twenty three, we are 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.839 still dealing with issues that people were dealing with doing 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:59.119 the civil rights movement, you know, posts the end of slavery, 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.480 And so I talked to my editor about doing the 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.840 columns of you know, folding in my personal story with 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:13.079 historical data, real stats, and folding in those two using 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:18.160 data to talk about race. And my intention wasn't to 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.040 make anybody feel guilty, because we're often accused of that 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.160 when we talk about race. You know, there's this whole 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.960 controversy about blacks trying to make white people feel bad 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.520 about slavery. That wasn't the intention. The intention, which is 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.920 why it was signed and sealing, Michelle. It was a letter, 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.800 It was a discussion. It was like, let me tell 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.920 you what it's like to walk in my shoes from 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.680 the time I got the job at the Post, the 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.320 Washington Post, to what it was like even before the 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:50.600 Post is a young black intern and a scholarship program 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:55.600 that was designed to hire more black reporters. And let 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.000 me tell you what it's like to be, you know, 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.280 trying to get credit and home loans. And I I 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.360 live in a beautiful home in Prince George's County, Maryland, 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.640 on almost an acre of land. I'm right now looking 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:12.720 at a bank of trees and deer skipping through my yard, 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:20.360 and yet my home value is considerably less simply because 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.479 I'm black and I live in a black community. You 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.760 picked my house up and moved it, you know, thirty miles, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.880 not even thirty miles from where I live in a 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.360 white neighborhood, and my equity would be twenty thirty forty 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:38.240 percent more. And so my equity has not increased the 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.679 same it would be if the color of my skin 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:41.240 was different. 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.280 Did you feel that people were more receptive to this 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:51.520 message following George Floyd's death, because I feel like there 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.080 were a lot of people eager to learn. You might 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:58.520 have gotten some blowback, but I also feel there were 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:04.200 many people myself in that category who became even more 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.640 interested in some of these issues. Did you find that 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:08.360 as well? 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:12.680 I hope I actually did, and it shocked me. I 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:17.600 have to say I expected and did get the racist 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.600 emails that go back to Africa. Somebody actually said that, 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:27.559 but the overwhelming majority were from white Americans who said 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:32.159 I didn't know, I didn't realize the depth of this 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.279 and that was It was the highlight of that series 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:42.039 that people understood and they understood me, They understood what 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.520 I was trying to say. They had a lot of 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:49.000 self reflection. How did I contribute? How how do I 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:50.120 contribute to this? 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.520 I mean, it's awesome that you know, again, that speaks 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:59.080 to people who are really receptive, who want to be 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.359 about things that may be ingrained in them and the 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:08.760 result of sort of cultural conditioning. In the first column, Michelle, 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.120 you wrote about your own experience confronting your boss about 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.200 whether you were originally hired by the Washington Post in 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.640 nineteen ninety two because you were black. Tell us about 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.520 that conversation and also what gave you the courage to 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:22.360 have it. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.400 Yeah. I don't know if it was courage. I was 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.719 just pissed off, to be honest, I would you know. 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.240 I got to the Post at a very pretty young age. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.360 I was like, what was I just twenty nine I think, 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:38.600 you know, and in the business section, so one of 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.239 the youngest reporters in the business section. And I kept 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:44.680 hearing people say things like, well, how did you get 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.880 to the Post and what's your background? But it wasn't inquisitive, like, oh, 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.000 what paper did you come from? It's like, how did 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.719 you get here? And then some of my friends on 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.599 the staff say, yeah, people keep asking me about how 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.400 you got here, how you got this job, And after 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.360 one time too many, somebody asking how did I get 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.080 to the Washington Post, because the implication was I got 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.400 there because I was black, that they had some sort 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.520 of quota, and that I just fit the quota it 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.360 regardless of my credentials. At that point, I had been 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:18.840 in the business for eight years, had done well at 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.640 the Baltimore Evening Sun, you know, one awards at college. 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.880 You know I you know I was I was a 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:30.240 good reporter. And so I just got so discouraged, because 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.640 nobody wants a job that they're not qualified for. If 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.679 you're any person of honor, you don't want a job 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.840 just because you're black, or you're a woman, or you're Asian. 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.720 You want it because you're qualified for it, of course. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.040 And so I walked up to him and I said 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:52.000 to him, just point blank, there was no preceding conversation. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:53.840 I said, did you hire me because I was black? 0:07:55.560 --> 0:08:01.040 And he paused and he said I did. And the 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.320 tears started to well up, and he said, come into 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.000 my office and he sat me down in the couch. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.320 I remember this like it was yesterday. And he set 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.000 me down in the couch, and in my head, I 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.600 was sick. So they're right, They're all right. I'm not qualified. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.240 They just got me here because I was a black girl. 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.120 And I'm thinking all of this in my head and 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.840 he could see tears rolling down my face and he says, well, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.120 let me tell you something. I hired you because you 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.760 were black and you have an experience as a Black 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.600 American that we needed in this section. I hired you 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.440 because you're a woman. We need women in the business section. 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.199 I'd hired you because you're a good reporter. I hired 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.240 you because at that time I had developed an expertise 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.360 and bankruptcy. And he said, and I hired you because 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.200 you're young and you grew up in an inner city. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.120 In my head, I said, well, dude, why did you 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:48.839 start there? 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:50.400 I was going to say why. 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.520 Did he lead with me yes. 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.160 Yes, and he followed up, without knowing that's what I 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.040 was saying in my head. He followed up, he said, 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.000 I told you that first, that I hired you because 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.400 you're black. Because I don't want you to run away 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:09.560 from who you are. Your blackness is an asset to 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.560 the Washington Post, and you should not be ashamed of 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.760 the fact that that was one of the qualities that 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.480 I put on that paper when I hired you, And 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:25.600 it was a conversation thirty years later that I still remember, 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.880 and that conversation I had never told anybody about that 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:31.600 until I wrote the series. 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:40.120 Let's talk about financial inequities that currently exist, because I 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:47.440 think people don't realize that structural racism is really responsible 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.600 for the inequities that persist today. 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.080 Yeah. You know, the thing about racism in our country 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.320 is lots of people feel that it was an individual thing. 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.920 It was the clan over there doing something. It was 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.880 that racist white person that wasn't me or my family. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.960 And while there were a lot of individual attacks on folks, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:17.600 there were systemic, system wide discrimination. So just take redlining 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.240 for an example. So we sort of think it was 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:24.000 like a bank here and there, but also the federal 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:29.479 government participated in discrimination. I mean, they had the mortgage program, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:34.080 you know, the loans they were saying, carving out whole neighborhoods, saying, 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.720 these people over here, because they're black, don't lend to them. 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.240 It was on the federal level, it was on the 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:46.040 state level, the local level, in addition to individuals and banks, 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.560 and so it was a whole system in place. And 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:55.480 they would create spaces for blacks that then they wouldn't 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.319 put grocery stores, they wouldn't put banks, they wouldn't put 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.760 a place for them to work, and then they would 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.400 make it difficult for them to take transportation to the jobs, 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:10.280 or they would create highways and barriers. Then they created 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:15.000 within those areas that we call them ghettos, right, they 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.680 would say things like, you couldn't have but so many 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.600 people in the house, and and there's no there's no 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:24.320 recreational centers, there's no place for them to swim during 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.960 the summer, and the pools that you open up, you 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.160 don't allow them to come and swim. And it's so 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.920 it's those things, all of that put together, in addition 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.040 to the actual fear for their lives. You know, after 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.600 slavery ended. The reason why there's so many African American 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.960 men in jail is because there were laws, vacancy laws 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.440 that said you couldn't walk on the street and not 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.040 have a job. But if you're not giving people a job, 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:56.040 what else are they gonna do? And so you penalize 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.240 them by not allowing him to job, and they put 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.640 them in jail, and then you create another slavery system 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.360 by selling out their services as inmates. You see how 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.440 that system works. It's still in place to this day. 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.520 And now, I'm a big believe in personal responsibility. So 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:14.480 I grew up in a household where my mother and 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.440 father weren't they and my father was a felon, my 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.559 mother ran off, and so I'm from that kind of background, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.360 and so I studied hard and went to college. But 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.160 I'm just a small blip of the people because I 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.880 had people who helped me do that. But if you 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.880 don't have mentors, you don't have somebody telling you there's 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.079 another side to this life, then of course you don't 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.880 go to school. Of course you drop out. Of course 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.320 you turn the selling drugs to help pay for stuff 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.680 in your household. It's not an excuse. But you got 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:52.480 to understand the history to understand why this is still an. 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:57.920 Issue and the ripple effect. That's correct, there's a misconception. 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:02.440 I know that the income and equality in America between 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:07.520 black and white people is largely due to the spending 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:13.760 habits of Black Americans. Why is that sort of conventional 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.160 wisdom and why is that so wrong? 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.520 It's so wrong you think you hear people say things like, well, 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:25.000 they bought a cell phone. It's ridiculous because buying a 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.240 cell phone or a sneaker is not the same as 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.760 having the ability to buy a home and create wealth. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.600 And so Black Americans, like the rest of Americans, are 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.200 spend threats. Right. We are a consumer nation, So we're 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.559 not doing anything more or less than the rest of America. 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:45.320 The difference is that lots of wealth in America is 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.040 tied to home ownership, right, So it goes right back 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:54.280 to redlining. And so when for example, the gis came back, 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.040 you know, with the GI bill, they were allowed to 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.880 buy homes, they were allowed to use a GI build, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.240 go to school about homes. The Black soldiers were not. 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.440 And so home ownership has been the key to building 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.440 wealth in America, particularly for middle Americans. So when you 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.040 denied a whole population the ability to build that wealth, 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.800 that's where the disparity comes. And so when you put 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.720 all these ofcas on on away, and then you say, 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.280 why can't you run that race when you had put 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.960 roadblocks every part of that race. 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.760 When we come back, Michelle shares her great grandmother's harrowing 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.480 story that led to fear and mistrust for the generations 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:49.760 that followed. We're back with Michelle Singletary, financial columnists for 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.360 the Washington Post. I know you've said your parents were 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.920 pretty much absentee and your grandmother, who you call Big Mama, 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.400 raised you starting at age four. But like a lot 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.200 of blackm Americans, she was very distrustful of financial institutions. 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.600 And given everything you've already said, you can understand why. 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.960 So tell us how she felt and how that manifested 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:14.560 itself into your upbringing. 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.160 Yeah, especially even again to the stock market. So I 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.840 liked to joke that my grandmother didn't believe in the 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.280 stock market. She only had a simple savings account. She 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.560 didn't even have bonds because she the only bond she 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.720 had was the Bondamheson for her dentures. She just didn't 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.640 trust them. And many communities across not just the South, 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.520 by the way, but the North as well had these 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.240 When they created pockets of wealth for themselves, it was 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.640 destroyed because of racism. And so because of that, my 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.840 grandmother didn't trust banks. You know, we knew that banks 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.600 they own slaves, they had investments in slavery. So many 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.840 people in our community had that same mistrust, but in 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.120 terms of the stock market. But what we don't realize, 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.080 and not just Black Americans, but white Americans too, Americans 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.240 in general, that you have to invest your money so 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.440 that it can grow. And so I had to learn 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.640 to be an investor, despite the fact that I grew 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.040 up in a household where my grandmother was like, don't 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.360 you mess with that market. Don't you you know those 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.760 you put that money there. But I understand her fear. 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.120 Now I did not at the time, because people have 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:26.600 to understand where the mistrust comes from and the fear. 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.960 So it's only in my lifetime that black Americans had 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.520 the right to vote. It's only in my lifetime that 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.320 I had the right to live where I live. It's 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:36.880 only in my lifetime that I was able to get 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.760 a job at the Washington Post. And so, you know, 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.440 my grandmother would tell me this one story that I 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.400 wrote about in my column. So my grandmother's grandmother was 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.480 enslaved in the South, in North Carolina, and she was 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.160 what they call a wet nurse, and so she had 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.640 a child at the same time her owner had a child, 0:16:56.200 --> 0:17:00.800 and so she was charged with nursing that owner's babe. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.480 And so the owner determined that the milk on the 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.400 left side was better because it was closer to the heart. 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.159 So she told my grandmother's grandmother that she better not 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:18.000 nurse her own child on the left side. So one evening, 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.399 she was tired, she had put the other, the white baby, 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.520 to sleep. She's sitting in the kitchen in front of 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.199 the fry place. She starts to nurse her own child 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:31.760 in her sleepiness on the left side. The white owner came. 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:39.520 In and saw that, and she whipped my grandmother's grandmother 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:44.240 to probably an inch of her life for nursing her 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.280 own baby on her own black breast. 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.479 And that story carried through my family. So you can 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.199 imagine how that story carries. You can't trust these people. 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.080 They will take stuff away from you, They will take 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.840 away the naturalness of feeding your own child. 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.920 And so when people say slavery was a long time ago, 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.840 it wasn't for me, because I touched a woman who 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.200 touched a woman who was enslaved, who couldn't nurse her 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.679 own child on her own breasts. When we traveled to 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.080 North Carolina, we had to make sure that we weren't 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:24.639 on the road at nighttime. 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:30.639 In my lifetime, of course, there's also a new school 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:35.720 of thought. It's relatively new about generational trauma, right. It 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.840 is very much alive today and I can hear it 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.120 in your voice when you recount that story. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.840 Yeah, I mean, you think about it. If you were 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.520 sold away from your family, denied the ability to get 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.680 a job, jailed, you weren't allowed to buy a home 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.000 in a decent neighborhood, you were packaged and pushed into 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.239 neighborhoods that didn't have resources to support the people in 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.080 those then what do you do? You do all the 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:09.560 things that create a legacy of victims and people being victimized, 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.760 and it is hard to overcome that. That's what I 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.159 try to write in my column, and you know a 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.080 lot of the things that we're doing at the Washington 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.960 Post to expose these things is to sort of say, look, y'all, 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.600 all of us can be better off if the parts 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:31.640 of our community, be it African Americans, Hispanic immigrants, if 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.920 we help them, we all benefit. We all benefit. 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:42.679 Do you see things changing the income gap between black 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:47.800 and white families is staggering. Black Americans networth is seventy 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:52.920 percent below that of non black households. So we've been 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:58.400 having conversations that we didn't have ten years ago about 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:03.160 systemic racism. Do you feel like that has prompted any 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.040 kind of positive change? 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.040 I actually do. I do the fact that we are 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.760 going to college at record numbers, and even though home 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.760 ownership rates is still fairly low when you compare to 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.399 white Americans, it's about forty five percent for African Americans, 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.919 it's about seventy five percent for white households. And actually 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:24.679 that number is the same as it was on the 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.160 Civil Rights when housing laws were enacted. So we've got 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.200 to get that number up. But I feel like we're 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.680 making progress. Even with we talked about credit scores, right, 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.560 there's you know, like Fico and other companies are trying 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.480 to figure out ways to include information that would be 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.199 more inclusive to African Americans. So some of the newer 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:49.359 credit scoring models taken to account rent payments, right, so 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.320 if you've been paying your rent on time, they include 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.440 that like they would alone. And so I do see 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:59.840 some progress. Is it slow? Yes? But I am optimist 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:05.360 because to not be optimistic is to just give up. 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.560 And I'm not going to give up having this conversation. 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.480 The series was so well received, and I think if 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.399 we are bold enough to write about it and people 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:21.760 can open their minds and not just rely on stereotypes 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.800 and trope sayings. But I do think that the more 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.840 people are aware of this, the more we write about it, 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:33.520 the more we expose it, that change is coming. 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.359 Well, that editor was right, although he buried the league 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:43.080 as they say, Michelle, about why you were hired for 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.919 the totality of who you are, but because you're a 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:50.800 damn good reporter, writer and highly intelligent person. I just 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.119 wanted to mention that Michelle, you're a baller, that we 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:57.080 need to come up with a with a more gender 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.880 appropriate word, like what is the synonym for baller if 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:01.520 you're a woman. 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:07.520 Oh, you know, that's a good question. I don't know. Queen. Well, 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:09.840 thank you for having me and I appreciate you and 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:11.800 thank you for addressing this topic. 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:17.119 Great. Thank you, Michelle. When we come back, our conversation 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.359 about the racial wealth gap continues. I'll be joined by 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:24.760 Chloe McKenzie, founder of Blackfan, who will share her personal 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.320 struggle with financial trauma and how it gave her a 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:35.960 unique ability to help others find financial freedom. If you 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:38.439 want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.720 the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:44.960 pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:56.440 Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back. I'm 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:00.520 delighted to introduce my next guest, Chloe McKenzie. Choe is 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.679 a researcher and a wealth justice activist. She's been working 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:07.679 on behalf of Black women addressing the root causes of 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:12.920 financial trauma through her organization Blackfem. Chloe Welcome. 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:13.919 Hi. 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:20.600 So if someone said, Chloe, what exactly does Blackfem do Black. 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:21.399 Them partners with? 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.320 I would say the nation's most forward thinking governmental bodies, 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:32.359 private institutions, and public institutions to undo generations of systemic 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:33.400 financial trauma. 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:35.600 And the way that we do this is. 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:40.000 We start to look at the different points of where 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:45.399 financial trauma is perpetrated in education systems and our policymaking systems, 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:49.840 and our familial systems and our culture systems to not 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:53.199 only teach people how to navigate an economically violent system, 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:57.359 but to ultimately change policy and the systems themselves so 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:01.360 that they're no longer perpetrating the financial trauma onto the populations. 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:04.800 When you say wealth and trauma, I'm just curious because 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.600 that I think, Well, wealth doesn't insulate you from trauma. 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.959 That's so interesting. Well, we'll further explore the relationship between 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:15.480 wealth and trauma in a moment, but first, I want 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.280 to go back to your personal story, Chloe. 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:22.280 Yes, so a lot of my own contentious relationship with 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.800 money comes from the fact that I grew up incredibly privileged, 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:30.679 but I rejected a lot of that privilege to be safe, 0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:33.879 and so I have this very kind of interesting dynamic 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:36.520 with money and wealth, which is how I got to 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:37.679 the where I am today. 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:44.000 That's fascinating. All these different, almost conflicting messages you were 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.159 getting as a child. Tell us a little more about, 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:52.359 if you could, about your childhood and how as you said, 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:57.240 you were privileged, at the same time you were under 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:00.400 a lot of stress and experienced trauma. 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:03.040 Yeah. So again, you're right. It's so funny. 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.720 I always think of Brene Brown's quote about she says 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:08.280