1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: You know, my company, Katie Kuric Media, wouldn't get to 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: do all the cool things we do like bring you 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: one of those, is Ally. On the last episode in 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: this series, I sat down with Alli Senior Director of 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: Financial Health and Wellness, Jack Howard. We spoke about how 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: money stories influence our financial decision making. On today's episode, 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: we're digging even deeper. We'll be talking about the racial 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: wealth gap and the systemic and historical factors that have 12 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: contributed to pervasive and seemingly intractable financial inequality. With the 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: help of two amazing guests, we're taking a look at 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: the causes of economic injustice, as well as how to 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: navigate a new path forward. I'll be speaking with Chloe McKenzie, 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: founder of blackfam, an organization dedicated to reimagining wealth opportunities 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: for black women. But first from The Washington Post financial 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: columnist Michelle Singletary. Michelle's award winning ten part series Sincerely, 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: Michelle addressed common misconceptions involving race and inequality, and it 20 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: really helped so many people understand the roots of the 21 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: racial wealth gap. I'm really excited to have Michelle here today. Michelle, 22 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: great to see you. 23 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate having this opportunity. 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: I know, Michelle, you were prompted to really begin this 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: work focusing on race and money following the murder of 26 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: George Floyd. Can you tell me how that inspired you 27 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 1: to try to tackle this really important but often ignored issue. 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, for most of my career, like many black Americans, 29 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: have dealt with race issues on my job in the community, 30 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: and I'll be honest, I didn't talk about it a 31 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: lot because when you do, people say things like, oh, 32 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: you're playing the race card or you're too sensitive, and 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: so for most of my career, even though I've written 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: about discrimination, particularly as it relates to personal finance, personally, 35 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: I didn't talk a lot about it. And then after 36 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: the death of George Floyd, that whole summer of reckoning 37 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to tear up now. I just said, I 38 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 2: can't be silent anymore. I can't be afraid of the 39 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: blowback of talking about what it's like to be black 40 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: in America. Like now it's twenty twenty three, we are 41 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,839 Speaker 2: still dealing with issues that people were dealing with doing 42 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 2: the civil rights movement, you know, posts the end of slavery, 43 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: And so I talked to my editor about doing the 44 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: columns of you know, folding in my personal story with 45 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 2: historical data, real stats, and folding in those two using 46 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: data to talk about race. And my intention wasn't to 47 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: make anybody feel guilty, because we're often accused of that 48 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: when we talk about race. You know, there's this whole 49 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: controversy about blacks trying to make white people feel bad 50 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: about slavery. That wasn't the intention. The intention, which is 51 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: why it was signed and sealing, Michelle. It was a letter, 52 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: It was a discussion. It was like, let me tell 53 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: you what it's like to walk in my shoes from 54 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: the time I got the job at the Post, the 55 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: Washington Post, to what it was like even before the 56 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: Post is a young black intern and a scholarship program 57 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: that was designed to hire more black reporters. And let 58 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: me tell you what it's like to be, you know, 59 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: trying to get credit and home loans. And I I 60 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: live in a beautiful home in Prince George's County, Maryland, 61 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: on almost an acre of land. I'm right now looking 62 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: at a bank of trees and deer skipping through my yard, 63 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: and yet my home value is considerably less simply because 64 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 2: I'm black and I live in a black community. You 65 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: picked my house up and moved it, you know, thirty miles, 66 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: not even thirty miles from where I live in a 67 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: white neighborhood, and my equity would be twenty thirty forty 68 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: percent more. And so my equity has not increased the 69 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,679 Speaker 2: same it would be if the color of my skin 70 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: was different. 71 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: Did you feel that people were more receptive to this 72 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: message following George Floyd's death, because I feel like there 73 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: were a lot of people eager to learn. You might 74 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: have gotten some blowback, but I also feel there were 75 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: many people myself in that category who became even more 76 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: interested in some of these issues. Did you find that 77 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: as well? 78 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: I hope I actually did, and it shocked me. I 79 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: have to say I expected and did get the racist 80 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 2: emails that go back to Africa. Somebody actually said that, 81 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:27,559 Speaker 2: but the overwhelming majority were from white Americans who said 82 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: I didn't know, I didn't realize the depth of this 83 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: and that was It was the highlight of that series 84 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 2: that people understood and they understood me, They understood what 85 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: I was trying to say. They had a lot of 86 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: self reflection. How did I contribute? How how do I 87 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 2: contribute to this? 88 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's awesome that you know, again, that speaks 89 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: to people who are really receptive, who want to be 90 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: about things that may be ingrained in them and the 91 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: result of sort of cultural conditioning. In the first column, Michelle, 92 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: you wrote about your own experience confronting your boss about 93 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: whether you were originally hired by the Washington Post in 94 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two because you were black. Tell us about 95 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: that conversation and also what gave you the courage to 96 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: have it. 97 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if it was courage. I was 98 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 2: just pissed off, to be honest, I would you know. 99 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: I got to the Post at a very pretty young age. 100 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: I was like, what was I just twenty nine I think, 101 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: you know, and in the business section, so one of 102 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 2: the youngest reporters in the business section. And I kept 103 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: hearing people say things like, well, how did you get 104 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: to the Post and what's your background? But it wasn't inquisitive, like, oh, 105 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: what paper did you come from? It's like, how did 106 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 2: you get here? And then some of my friends on 107 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: the staff say, yeah, people keep asking me about how 108 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: you got here, how you got this job, And after 109 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: one time too many, somebody asking how did I get 110 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: to the Washington Post, because the implication was I got 111 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: there because I was black, that they had some sort 112 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: of quota, and that I just fit the quota it 113 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: regardless of my credentials. At that point, I had been 114 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: in the business for eight years, had done well at 115 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: the Baltimore Evening Sun, you know, one awards at college. 116 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: You know I you know I was I was a 117 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: good reporter. And so I just got so discouraged, because 118 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: nobody wants a job that they're not qualified for. If 119 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 2: you're any person of honor, you don't want a job 120 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: just because you're black, or you're a woman, or you're Asian. 121 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: You want it because you're qualified for it, of course. 122 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: And so I walked up to him and I said 123 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: to him, just point blank, there was no preceding conversation. 124 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: I said, did you hire me because I was black? 125 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: And he paused and he said I did. And the 126 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: tears started to well up, and he said, come into 127 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: my office and he sat me down in the couch. 128 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: I remember this like it was yesterday. And he set 129 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: me down in the couch, and in my head, I 130 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: was sick. So they're right, They're all right. I'm not qualified. 131 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: They just got me here because I was a black girl. 132 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: And I'm thinking all of this in my head and 133 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: he could see tears rolling down my face and he says, well, 134 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: let me tell you something. I hired you because you 135 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: were black and you have an experience as a Black 136 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: American that we needed in this section. I hired you 137 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: because you're a woman. We need women in the business section. 138 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: I'd hired you because you're a good reporter. I hired 139 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 2: you because at that time I had developed an expertise 140 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: and bankruptcy. And he said, and I hired you because 141 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: you're young and you grew up in an inner city. 142 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: In my head, I said, well, dude, why did you 143 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 2: start there? 144 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: I was going to say why. 145 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: Did he lead with me yes. 146 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: Yes, and he followed up, without knowing that's what I 147 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: was saying in my head. He followed up, he said, 148 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: I told you that first, that I hired you because 149 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: you're black. Because I don't want you to run away 150 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: from who you are. Your blackness is an asset to 151 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: the Washington Post, and you should not be ashamed of 152 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: the fact that that was one of the qualities that 153 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: I put on that paper when I hired you, And 154 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: it was a conversation thirty years later that I still remember, 155 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: and that conversation I had never told anybody about that 156 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: until I wrote the series. 157 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about financial inequities that currently exist, because I 158 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: think people don't realize that structural racism is really responsible 159 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: for the inequities that persist today. 160 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, the thing about racism in our country 161 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: is lots of people feel that it was an individual thing. 162 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: It was the clan over there doing something. It was 163 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: that racist white person that wasn't me or my family. 164 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: And while there were a lot of individual attacks on folks, 165 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: there were systemic, system wide discrimination. So just take redlining 166 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 2: for an example. So we sort of think it was 167 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: like a bank here and there, but also the federal 168 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:29,479 Speaker 2: government participated in discrimination. I mean, they had the mortgage program, 169 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: you know, the loans they were saying, carving out whole neighborhoods, saying, 170 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: these people over here, because they're black, don't lend to them. 171 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: It was on the federal level, it was on the 172 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: state level, the local level, in addition to individuals and banks, 173 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: and so it was a whole system in place. And 174 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: they would create spaces for blacks that then they wouldn't 175 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 2: put grocery stores, they wouldn't put banks, they wouldn't put 176 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: a place for them to work, and then they would 177 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: make it difficult for them to take transportation to the jobs, 178 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: or they would create highways and barriers. Then they created 179 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: within those areas that we call them ghettos, right, they 180 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: would say things like, you couldn't have but so many 181 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: people in the house, and and there's no there's no 182 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: recreational centers, there's no place for them to swim during 183 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: the summer, and the pools that you open up, you 184 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: don't allow them to come and swim. And it's so 185 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 2: it's those things, all of that put together, in addition 186 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: to the actual fear for their lives. You know, after 187 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: slavery ended. The reason why there's so many African American 188 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: men in jail is because there were laws, vacancy laws 189 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 2: that said you couldn't walk on the street and not 190 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 2: have a job. But if you're not giving people a job, 191 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: what else are they gonna do? And so you penalize 192 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: them by not allowing him to job, and they put 193 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: them in jail, and then you create another slavery system 194 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 2: by selling out their services as inmates. You see how 195 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 2: that system works. It's still in place to this day. 196 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: And now, I'm a big believe in personal responsibility. So 197 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: I grew up in a household where my mother and 198 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 2: father weren't they and my father was a felon, my 199 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 2: mother ran off, and so I'm from that kind of background, 200 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: and so I studied hard and went to college. But 201 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: I'm just a small blip of the people because I 202 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: had people who helped me do that. But if you 203 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: don't have mentors, you don't have somebody telling you there's 204 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 2: another side to this life, then of course you don't 205 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: go to school. Of course you drop out. Of course 206 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: you turn the selling drugs to help pay for stuff 207 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: in your household. It's not an excuse. But you got 208 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: to understand the history to understand why this is still an. 209 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: Issue and the ripple effect. That's correct, there's a misconception. 210 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: I know that the income and equality in America between 211 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: black and white people is largely due to the spending 212 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: habits of Black Americans. Why is that sort of conventional 213 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: wisdom and why is that so wrong? 214 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: It's so wrong you think you hear people say things like, well, 215 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: they bought a cell phone. It's ridiculous because buying a 216 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: cell phone or a sneaker is not the same as 217 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: having the ability to buy a home and create wealth. 218 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: And so Black Americans, like the rest of Americans, are 219 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: spend threats. Right. We are a consumer nation, So we're 220 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 2: not doing anything more or less than the rest of America. 221 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: The difference is that lots of wealth in America is 222 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: tied to home ownership, right, So it goes right back 223 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: to redlining. And so when for example, the gis came back, 224 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: you know, with the GI bill, they were allowed to 225 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: buy homes, they were allowed to use a GI build, 226 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: go to school about homes. The Black soldiers were not. 227 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 2: And so home ownership has been the key to building 228 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: wealth in America, particularly for middle Americans. So when you 229 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: denied a whole population the ability to build that wealth, 230 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: that's where the disparity comes. And so when you put 231 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: all these ofcas on on away, and then you say, 232 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: why can't you run that race when you had put 233 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: roadblocks every part of that race. 234 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: When we come back, Michelle shares her great grandmother's harrowing 235 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: story that led to fear and mistrust for the generations 236 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: that followed. We're back with Michelle Singletary, financial columnists for 237 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: the Washington Post. I know you've said your parents were 238 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: pretty much absentee and your grandmother, who you call Big Mama, 239 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: raised you starting at age four. But like a lot 240 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: of blackm Americans, she was very distrustful of financial institutions. 241 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: And given everything you've already said, you can understand why. 242 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: So tell us how she felt and how that manifested 243 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: itself into your upbringing. 244 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially even again to the stock market. So I 245 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: liked to joke that my grandmother didn't believe in the 246 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: stock market. She only had a simple savings account. She 247 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: didn't even have bonds because she the only bond she 248 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: had was the Bondamheson for her dentures. She just didn't 249 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: trust them. And many communities across not just the South, 250 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: by the way, but the North as well had these 251 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: When they created pockets of wealth for themselves, it was 252 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: destroyed because of racism. And so because of that, my 253 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: grandmother didn't trust banks. You know, we knew that banks 254 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: they own slaves, they had investments in slavery. So many 255 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: people in our community had that same mistrust, but in 256 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: terms of the stock market. But what we don't realize, 257 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: and not just Black Americans, but white Americans too, Americans 258 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: in general, that you have to invest your money so 259 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: that it can grow. And so I had to learn 260 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: to be an investor, despite the fact that I grew 261 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 2: up in a household where my grandmother was like, don't 262 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: you mess with that market. Don't you you know those 263 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: you put that money there. But I understand her fear. 264 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: Now I did not at the time, because people have 265 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: to understand where the mistrust comes from and the fear. 266 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: So it's only in my lifetime that black Americans had 267 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: the right to vote. It's only in my lifetime that 268 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: I had the right to live where I live. It's 269 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: only in my lifetime that I was able to get 270 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: a job at the Washington Post. And so, you know, 271 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: my grandmother would tell me this one story that I 272 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: wrote about in my column. So my grandmother's grandmother was 273 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: enslaved in the South, in North Carolina, and she was 274 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: what they call a wet nurse, and so she had 275 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: a child at the same time her owner had a child, 276 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: and so she was charged with nursing that owner's babe. 277 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: And so the owner determined that the milk on the 278 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 2: left side was better because it was closer to the heart. 279 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 2: So she told my grandmother's grandmother that she better not 280 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: nurse her own child on the left side. So one evening, 281 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: she was tired, she had put the other, the white baby, 282 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: to sleep. She's sitting in the kitchen in front of 283 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 2: the fry place. She starts to nurse her own child 284 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: in her sleepiness on the left side. The white owner came. 285 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 4: In and saw that, and she whipped my grandmother's grandmother 286 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 4: to probably an inch of her life for nursing her 287 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 4: own baby on her own black breast. 288 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 2: And that story carried through my family. So you can 289 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 2: imagine how that story carries. You can't trust these people. 290 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 2: They will take stuff away from you, They will take 291 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 2: away the naturalness of feeding your own child. 292 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 5: And so when people say slavery was a long time ago, 293 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 5: it wasn't for me, because I touched a woman who 294 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 5: touched a woman who was enslaved, who couldn't nurse her 295 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 5: own child on her own breasts. When we traveled to 296 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 5: North Carolina, we had to make sure that we weren't 297 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 5: on the road at nighttime. 298 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: In my lifetime, of course, there's also a new school 299 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: of thought. It's relatively new about generational trauma, right. It 300 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: is very much alive today and I can hear it 301 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: in your voice when you recount that story. 302 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you think about it. If you were 303 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: sold away from your family, denied the ability to get 304 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 2: a job, jailed, you weren't allowed to buy a home 305 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 2: in a decent neighborhood, you were packaged and pushed into 306 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,239 Speaker 2: neighborhoods that didn't have resources to support the people in 307 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: those then what do you do? You do all the 308 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 2: things that create a legacy of victims and people being victimized, 309 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: and it is hard to overcome that. That's what I 310 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: try to write in my column, and you know a 311 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: lot of the things that we're doing at the Washington 312 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: Post to expose these things is to sort of say, look, y'all, 313 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: all of us can be better off if the parts 314 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 2: of our community, be it African Americans, Hispanic immigrants, if 315 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: we help them, we all benefit. We all benefit. 316 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: Do you see things changing the income gap between black 317 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: and white families is staggering. Black Americans networth is seventy 318 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: percent below that of non black households. So we've been 319 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: having conversations that we didn't have ten years ago about 320 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: systemic racism. Do you feel like that has prompted any 321 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: kind of positive change? 322 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: I actually do. I do the fact that we are 323 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: going to college at record numbers, and even though home 324 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: ownership rates is still fairly low when you compare to 325 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: white Americans, it's about forty five percent for African Americans, 326 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 2: it's about seventy five percent for white households. And actually 327 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 2: that number is the same as it was on the 328 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: Civil Rights when housing laws were enacted. So we've got 329 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: to get that number up. But I feel like we're 330 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 2: making progress. Even with we talked about credit scores, right, 331 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: there's you know, like Fico and other companies are trying 332 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: to figure out ways to include information that would be 333 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 2: more inclusive to African Americans. So some of the newer 334 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: credit scoring models taken to account rent payments, right, so 335 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: if you've been paying your rent on time, they include 336 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 2: that like they would alone. And so I do see 337 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: some progress. Is it slow? Yes? But I am optimist 338 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 2: because to not be optimistic is to just give up. 339 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: And I'm not going to give up having this conversation. 340 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: The series was so well received, and I think if 341 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 2: we are bold enough to write about it and people 342 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: can open their minds and not just rely on stereotypes 343 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 2: and trope sayings. But I do think that the more 344 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: people are aware of this, the more we write about it, 345 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: the more we expose it, that change is coming. 346 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: Well, that editor was right, although he buried the league 347 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: as they say, Michelle, about why you were hired for 348 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: the totality of who you are, but because you're a 349 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: damn good reporter, writer and highly intelligent person. I just 350 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: wanted to mention that Michelle, you're a baller, that we 351 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: need to come up with a with a more gender 352 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: appropriate word, like what is the synonym for baller if 353 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: you're a woman. 354 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: Oh, you know, that's a good question. I don't know. Queen. Well, 355 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: thank you for having me and I appreciate you and 356 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: thank you for addressing this topic. 357 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: Great. Thank you, Michelle. When we come back, our conversation 358 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: about the racial wealth gap continues. I'll be joined by 359 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: Chloe McKenzie, founder of Blackfan, who will share her personal 360 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: struggle with financial trauma and how it gave her a 361 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: unique ability to help others find financial freedom. If you 362 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of 363 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and 364 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake Up 365 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back. I'm 366 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: delighted to introduce my next guest, Chloe McKenzie. Choe is 367 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: a researcher and a wealth justice activist. She's been working 368 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: on behalf of Black women addressing the root causes of 369 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: financial trauma through her organization Blackfem. Chloe Welcome. 370 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 3: Hi. 371 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: So if someone said, Chloe, what exactly does Blackfem do Black. 372 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 3: Them partners with? 373 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 6: I would say the nation's most forward thinking governmental bodies, 374 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 6: private institutions, and public institutions to undo generations of systemic 375 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 6: financial trauma. 376 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: And the way that we do this is. 377 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 6: We start to look at the different points of where 378 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 6: financial trauma is perpetrated in education systems and our policymaking systems, 379 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 6: and our familial systems and our culture systems to not 380 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 6: only teach people how to navigate an economically violent system, 381 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 6: but to ultimately change policy and the systems themselves so 382 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 6: that they're no longer perpetrating the financial trauma onto the populations. 383 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: When you say wealth and trauma, I'm just curious because 384 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: that I think, Well, wealth doesn't insulate you from trauma. 385 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,959 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Well, we'll further explore the relationship between 386 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: wealth and trauma in a moment, but first, I want 387 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: to go back to your personal story, Chloe. 388 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 6: Yes, so a lot of my own contentious relationship with 389 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 6: money comes from the fact that I grew up incredibly privileged, 390 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 6: but I rejected a lot of that privilege to be safe, 391 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 6: and so I have this very kind of interesting dynamic 392 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 6: with money and wealth, which is how I got to 393 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 6: the where I am today. 394 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. All these different, almost conflicting messages you were 395 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: getting as a child. Tell us a little more about, 396 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: if you could, about your childhood and how as you said, 397 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: you were privileged, at the same time you were under 398 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: a lot of stress and experienced trauma. 399 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. So again, you're right. It's so funny. 400 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 6: I always think of Brene Brown's quote about she says 401 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 6: the truth lies in the paradox and there are so 402 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 6: many conflicting paradoxical experiences that I had growing up. So 403 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 6: I was the golden child's you know, I skipped two grades, 404 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 6: I was reading at three, all of these kind of 405 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 6: wonderful things. But you know, I experienced physical and sexual 406 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 6: abuse my entire childhood until I was able to really 407 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 6: escape because I skipped two grades growing up. I was 408 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 6: twelve as a freshman in high school, and so my 409 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 6: primary purpose was to just get to college as quickly 410 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 6: as possible, because waiting until eighteen six years it would 411 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 6: just be. 412 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 3: Be too much. 413 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: You were a superstar in high school, you were captain 414 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: of the soccer team, student body president, made obviously great grades, 415 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: and you go on to Amherst and then you go 416 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: on to be a Wall Street trader. 417 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 3: Yeah yep. 418 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: Now this was just a few years after of the 419 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: financial crisis, and I'm imagining there weren't a lot of 420 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: traders who look like you, Chloe, Am I right now? 421 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 3: Absolutely not. 422 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 6: The way that I describe it to people is if 423 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 6: they've ever seen the movie Hidden Figures, I was the 424 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 6: Taraji p Henson on the trading floor, as she was 425 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 6: the only calculator mathematician on a floor full of you know, astrophysicists. 426 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: And what was that experience, like. 427 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 6: Old Chloe would tell you, I mean it was exhilarating, 428 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 6: so old and new Chloe would say that, I again, 429 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 6: and this is part of my understanding of how I've 430 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 6: been resilient through my trauma. But you know, I love 431 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 6: being discounted. I love being the underdog. I love being subversive. 432 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 6: That's just my competitive nature. And if I can subvert 433 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 6: gender norms or racial norms or whatever, I'm in it 434 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 6: like all the time. 435 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 3: So it was it was exciting in that way. 436 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,239 Speaker 6: It was the most intellectually compelling play to be at 437 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 6: the time because, as you mentioned, this was right after 438 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 6: the two thousand and eight financial crisis of several years 439 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 6: after Dodd Frank has just been implemented, so we were 440 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 6: recovering in some ways. 441 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 3: But what was most fascinating to me. 442 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 6: Was that a lot of the things that were being 443 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 6: done in two thousand and eight were in some ways 444 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 6: still being done, just in a different name and maybe 445 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 6: like slightly more compliant with Dodd Frank. I studied law, jurisprudence, 446 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 6: and social thought at AMMERS because I thought I was 447 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 6: going to be a lawyer, and so I'm coming in 448 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 6: with no finance background or economics or anything. I just 449 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 6: happened to be really good with numbers, so I found 450 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 6: it intellectually fascinating. It also was incredibly morally bankrupting, just 451 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 6: because of the frat boy behavior that you just had 452 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 6: to be around at all times. 453 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun, although 454 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: I guess it was very adrenaline producing, right, and that 455 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: the pay so beine on a trading floor must just 456 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: be constant, you know, motion, energy, noise. 457 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 6: I think what made it very fascinating and frankly intense 458 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 6: was that it was what I was trading. So I 459 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 6: was trading mortgages, student loans, credit card receivables, and auto loans, 460 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 6: so all of the debt that the average American touches, 461 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 6: I was trading. And that made it more intense for 462 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 6: me because I'm thinking to myself, Okay, I didn't even 463 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,239 Speaker 6: know what securitization was, and why am I trading the 464 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 6: cash flow of somebody who's playing their bill but they're 465 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 6: struggling and on the brink of foreclosure. But we're going 466 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 6: to make how many millions off of this trading pool? 467 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 6: And we were also financing, you know, for other hedge 468 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 6: funds to buy these distressed properties, and I was in 469 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 6: charge of making sure things were compliant because I was 470 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 6: the legal girl, and so I also dealt with all 471 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 6: of the appraisers who were going to confirm that these 472 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 6: properties were not crap like they were in two thousand 473 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 6: and eight or something like that. 474 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 3: So I just I saw. 475 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 6: The more human element than what usually most traders. 476 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: See to compensate for the morally bankrupt environment. You started 477 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: working at a homeless shelter as a financial counselor This 478 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: was while you're working on Wall Street, right, Chloe, Yes, 479 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: So why did you want to do that and what 480 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: impact did that have on your career? 481 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah? 482 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 6: So, so much of what I told myself and I 483 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 6: still do today, But so much what I've told myself 484 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 6: when I was younger was that serving others was a 485 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 6: way to heal myself. It provided perspective that I went 486 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 6: through hell growing up, So there was that, and then, yes, 487 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 6: the profundity of that experience was that I really again 488 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 6: connected this idea of how is it that I am 489 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 6: trading the cash flows of the bills people need to 490 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 6: pay and they are struggling to pay, and helping people 491 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 6: make so much money off of. 492 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 3: That activity and then coming. 493 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 6: Here and working with women, predominantly Black women. A lot 494 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 6: of them were young women, a lot of them were mothers, 495 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 6: and some of them had just aged out of foster care. 496 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 2: And be in. 497 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 3: The worst financial situation you can think of. 498 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 6: And so in many ways it started to kind of 499 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 6: piece together this narrative of like again, this inherent contradiction 500 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 6: of what it means to be in quote financial services, 501 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 6: like who are we really serving? Why are we doing 502 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 6: it this way? And especially I think when I connected 503 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 6: again the racial and gender lens of my experience and 504 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 6: working with these women, I said, we're. 505 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 3: Not doing enough. 506 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: So you started Black Them in twenty fifteen, talk about 507 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: the driving idea behind the work. And I love the 508 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: reason you named your company any Black Them. 509 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 6: Yes, you have absolutely no doubt in your mind who 510 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 6: it's for and why and who founded it. 511 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 3: So when I was working in the homeless shelter. 512 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 6: I started to realize that a lot of the research 513 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 6: and even the solutions, programmatic, policy based solutions. 514 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 3: Around the wealth gap never we're intersectional. 515 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 6: So I always say the racial and gender wealth gap, 516 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 6: because if we're taking them together, then we need to 517 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 6: actually name the oppressive forces that are interlocking and so 518 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 6: I said, you know, with the time that I've left 519 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 6: on this earth, I'm going to dedicate it to closing 520 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 6: the racial and gender wealth gap. And I'm going to 521 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 6: do so by prioritizing the very population that suffers the 522 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 6: most from this structural positioning of always having to do 523 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 6: the most to achieve or you know, achieve any type 524 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 6: of wealth building, type of stability or capability. 525 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: Talk to me about working with black women and black 526 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: girls specifically and why you think that is key in 527 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: solving some of these broader social issues. 528 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 6: Yeah, being a mom, it's so hard to say this, 529 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 6: but the first thing that I kind of grounded myself 530 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 6: in when I created black then, which is black women 531 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 6: birthed all of the wealth in America. 532 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 3: And so the apparatus. 533 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 6: Through which the slave holders used in order to make 534 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 6: sure that they were getting enough laborers to pick said 535 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 6: cotton was through birthing children that ultimately they you know, disowned. 536 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 6: And so I think about the fact that that truth 537 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 6: that trauma, that's where this link of wealth and trauma 538 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 6: kind of exists, has been passed down through everything that 539 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 6: we do. 540 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: And so how do you reverse that? Though you know, 541 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: those are years that have been ingrained in the consciousness 542 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: of this population. How are you applying what I'm understanding 543 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: to be generational financial trauma to the women you're serving today. 544 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 6: That's a great question, But the short answer is I'm 545 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 6: figuring that out. 546 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 3: That is literally the day to day work. 547 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 6: And so part of what I do when I work 548 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,239 Speaker 6: with black women and girls is I look at the 549 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 6: way in which I can describe to them how to 550 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 6: navigate a. 551 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 3: System that was designed to be harmful. 552 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 6: And so I'm teaching people here are the ways that 553 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 6: the system is already actively harming you, and giving them 554 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 6: the vocabulary to navigate that, and then the skills on 555 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 6: how to navigate that. 556 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 3: And so it's a harm reduction strategy as. 557 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 6: I'm trying to figure out what the harm elimination strategy is. 558 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: So what you're trying to do is eradicate some of 559 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: the obstacles, long long term obstacles that have discouraged particularly 560 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: women of color. 561 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 6: Yes, I actually really appreciate how you frame that, because 562 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 6: that is true, and to your point, it's a both 563 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 6: and that on the one hand, I'm hoping to help 564 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 6: people who are in charge of building and perpetuating our 565 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 6: economic system to understand how to participate and make it 566 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 6: less scary, but then also working with the community black women, 567 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 6: how is it that I can help reduce some of 568 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 6: that fear to help you then more fully participate. 569 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 1: Well, this is fascinating, Chloe McKenzie. You are something. Thank 570 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: you so much for everything that you're doing and good 571 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: luck with all your efforts. 572 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Katie. 573 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. By the way, if you have 574 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, 575 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: or you want to share your thoughts about how you 576 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a 577 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: short message at six h nine five point two five 578 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: to five five, or you can send me a DM 579 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next 580 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. 581 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: The executive producer Katie Couric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising 582 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adrianna Fazzio and 583 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also 584 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, 585 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call, 586 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app or visit 587 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me 588 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. 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