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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to what Future. I'm your host, Joshua Zapolski.

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Speaker 1: So for many weeks I've been talking about thinking about

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Speaker 1: skirting around and perhaps even delving into the issue of Twitter,

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Speaker 1: which is ever present in the minds of all people

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Speaker 1: who are on Twitter and it's new owner, Elon Musk,

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Speaker 1: and all of the madness that has been sort of

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Speaker 1: unleashed on the general population. I have touched on it

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Speaker 1: here and there, sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly. Sometimes I wasn't

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Speaker 1: touching on it at all, and you just thought I

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Speaker 1: was because you're a very confused person. But there's so

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Speaker 1: much that has happened with Twitter, the social network, and

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Speaker 1: its owner, Elon Musk, and the users of it that

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Speaker 1: it felt worth exploring in a more direct and sort

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Speaker 1: of plain manner. And I would say just in the

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Speaker 1: last week, just in the last few days, there have

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Speaker 1: been things that have been happening that are just seemed

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Speaker 1: totally surreal at this point. For instance, Elon Musk is

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Speaker 1: tweeting a Tim Cooke, the CEO of Apple, about how

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Speaker 1: he's going to go to war with Apple because they

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Speaker 1: don't want to advertise on Twitter, because Twitter is now

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Speaker 1: full of Nazis and racists again. They're no longer going

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Speaker 1: to flag COVID misinformation or even attempt to stop the

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Speaker 1: spread of misinformation on the service as it relates to COVID.

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Speaker 1: No other social network in the world is doing that.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's trying to stop the flow of and stem the

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Speaker 1: tide of miss info. They're like, no, we're not doing

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Speaker 1: that anymore. They fired all of the team that was

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Speaker 1: tracking child sex abuse on the platform, or most of

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Speaker 1: the team. Bloomberg's headline was they decimated the team tackling

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Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. So just really normal stuff for a

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Speaker 1: social network with two million users, it just becomes such

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Speaker 1: an ongoing, rolling story. I thought, you know who, who

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Speaker 1: can you talk to you about this? Who really understands

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Speaker 1: the inner workings of it, And immediately I thought of

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Speaker 1: Casey Newton, who is an amazing journalist and writer and

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Speaker 1: has been, along with his partners Zoe Schiffer, has been

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Speaker 1: writing to Scoop after Scoop in the last few weeks

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Speaker 1: about what's going on inside of Twitter, and they broke

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Speaker 1: a ton of stories. I think they broke the story

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Speaker 1: about all these people quitting Twitter. They've broken all of

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Speaker 1: these stories about these panicked emails that Elon Muskus send

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Speaker 1: him because nobody can write code there anymore. And just

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Speaker 1: it's been an amazing kind of example of what I

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Speaker 1: would say is the finest journalism around this topic and

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Speaker 1: kind of exposes the the chaos and the insanity of

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Speaker 1: this moment inside of Twitter. And so I thought, let's

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Speaker 1: get Casey on the show. Let's talk to him about

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Speaker 1: what the state of play is at Twitter. And so

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Speaker 1: that's what we did. Okay, let's get after it. As

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Speaker 1: Chris Cuomo used to say before he was canceled and

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Speaker 1: fired from CNN. Sorry, it's a dark memory from just

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Speaker 1: the recent past. The Cuomos, they didn't fare too well

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Speaker 1: as the pandemic was closing up. They really didn't knock

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Speaker 1: it out of the park. Okay, but we're not here

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Speaker 1: to talk about their weird bad behavior. We're here to

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Speaker 1: talk about the weird bad behavior of another guy. Yeah, uh,

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Speaker 1: who's not a Cuomo Elon Musk So okay, So first off,

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Speaker 1: you cover this, you are a top of the class,

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Speaker 1: top shelf. I can't think of anything but a top

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, you're a top when it comes

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Speaker 1: to coverage. I can't speak on to every subject for you,

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to coverage of the Internet and

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Speaker 1: internet companies, in particularly Twitter, you're the best. You're You're

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Speaker 1: on top. What thanks man? Thanks? You have many many, many,

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Speaker 1: many sneaky ass sources screring around whatever remains of Twitter

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Speaker 1: h Q delivering truth bombs to you on a regular basis.

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Speaker 1: Would you say this is all accurate? The thing is,

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Speaker 1: I have never really thought of myself as as a

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Speaker 1: great reporter, But in that case, I don't believe that. Well, look,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm a good writer. I think it was

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Speaker 1: a pretty good thinker, But like, I've never been the

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Speaker 1: scoopiest guy. But with this particular story, Josh, I'm not

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Speaker 1: kidding when I tell you, like, for two or three weeks,

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Speaker 1: I would wake up and every single day I would

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Speaker 1: just open up Signal and people were like, here are

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Speaker 1: like four more things that no one has reported yet.

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Speaker 1: There's just so much going on at that company and

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Speaker 1: it just kind of needed to go somewhere. So it's

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Speaker 1: been an amazing month, the reporting that you've been doing.

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Speaker 1: And you and Joe Schiffer. Am I saying that right?

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Speaker 1: Is that the correct pronunciation? Yeah, my colleagues, She's wonderfully.

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Speaker 1: You all have been doing some great, great reporting. It's

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Speaker 1: made me. I've been glued to Twitter kind of yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't think do you have a Master Dawn account yet?

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Speaker 1: Are you on that? Dude? I'm in it, but I

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Speaker 1: just look at that thing and I just feel like

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Speaker 1: it's dead on arrival. No, dude, Taylor Lareen's already has

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Speaker 1: sixty thou followers on Massadotic. You need to catch the

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Speaker 1: funk up by day. Okay, I'll see what I can do.

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Speaker 1: She's like, actually, I don't even know, like maybe she

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Speaker 1: has box. I'm not really sure. Are there sixty people

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Speaker 1: on masted on. I'm not entirely sure. I've heard they

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Speaker 1: have like eight million almost. No, it's kicking as I

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Speaker 1: love it. I think it's terrific. But anyhow, it's that's

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that at another point in time. So

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Speaker 1: so let's talk about Twitter for a second, okay, And

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Speaker 1: we don't have to recap all of the Twitter news

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Speaker 1: because obviously I've been talking about it here and there

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, and and I think the people who

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Speaker 1: are listening to this, the sick, sick people who listen

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Speaker 1: to this podcast have heard, you know, some something about

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Speaker 1: what's happening on Twitter, but you know you're hearing from

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Speaker 1: people who are currently working there, correct, Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: want you to I don't want you to to give away

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Speaker 1: any sources, but let's just say people who are very

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Speaker 1: very close to the inside mechanations of Twitter. Is it

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Speaker 1: as crazy to them or does it feel as off

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Speaker 1: the rails to people who are actually working there as

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Speaker 1: it does to human beings like us that are on

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Speaker 1: the outside. It absolutely feels off the real You know,

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Speaker 1: people will tell me some things, but there's a lot

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Speaker 1: that they won't tell me, and instead they'll say, like,

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Speaker 1: I will tell you the real story in like three years.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like once enough time has passed that

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Speaker 1: you know what I feel like. But they're like, it's

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Speaker 1: crazier than you can even imagine. Yeah, So there's obviously

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Speaker 1: the people on the ground. There's Twitter, there's people, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have been laid off, there's people who

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Speaker 1: have quit. There's like four people who currently work at

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Speaker 1: Twitter now and one of them Ze lot Mosque. But

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Speaker 1: I assume you're also talking to your have you spoken

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Speaker 1: to like vcs and investors and people who are outside

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Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, I get this weird impressure. Then maybe

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Speaker 1: a lot of them are like, Ellen is showing everyone

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Speaker 1: how it's done. Do you is that what's going on

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Speaker 1: out there? Yes? Yeah, some people are so excited about

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Speaker 1: what Ellen is doing because over the last ten years,

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Speaker 1: tech workers gained so much power, right, there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of competition for the best engineers. The companies were

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Speaker 1: printing money, they were making you know, like a million

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Speaker 1: dollars plus off of every single employee that they had,

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Speaker 1: and so workers just had all this freedom and they

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Speaker 1: you know, they had to serve them lunch, and they

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Speaker 1: had to give him great perks, you know, backrubs, laundry.

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Speaker 1: Then it actually give them backrubs. That's actually illegal. I

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Speaker 1: think that that it would have been happened not the manager.

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Speaker 1: They would bring people into get back. They would bring people,

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Speaker 1: they would bring in professional Okay, they're getting them backrubs

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Speaker 1: and lunch in the backrubs. That's a date. A BackRub

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Speaker 1: and lunch is like, that's a thousand dollar date. And

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Speaker 1: that's what it was like to work in Airbnb. So

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Speaker 1: you know, this all is going on. But instead of

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Speaker 1: saying thank you, my capitalist master, what do people do?

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Speaker 1: They say, like, well, we should also make this place

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Speaker 1: more diverse, right, Like we should improve the working condition.

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Speaker 1: We should actually treat our contractors as well as we

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Speaker 1: treat the full time employees. And this drives the CEO

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Speaker 1: is crazy. And so the moment that the economy starts

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Speaker 1: to turn and Elon takes over Twitter and just starts

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Speaker 1: slashing and burning, there are a lot of CEOs and

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Speaker 1: b c saying this is the way we need to

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Speaker 1: remind these workers what their true places. And that's licking

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Speaker 1: our boots. Wow. I mean to me, there's sort of

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Speaker 1: something about the Twitter stuff that is obviously it's Trumpian

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Speaker 1: in many ways because of Elon's I think Lawn's personality

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Speaker 1: on Twitter has become increasingly more trump like. Like I mean,

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Speaker 1: actually a lot of people have said to me recently,

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Speaker 1: they're like, can you believe this is the guy you're

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Speaker 1: asking about? Like, you know, are we living in a

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Speaker 1: simulation like not that long ago? And it is funny

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Speaker 1: because I used to think about Ellen and like, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: he's a little weird. He's kind of got some like

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Speaker 1: edge lord equalities, but not really. He's more just like

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Speaker 1: a super interesting guy and he's doing really interesting stuff.

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Speaker 1: And it's like so we're now so far afield from

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Speaker 1: this other version of Elon Musk that I used to

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Speaker 1: think of him as, and it he does increasingly have

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Speaker 1: more in common with like a Trump character. Like Trump.

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Speaker 1: It feels like this is one of those situations where

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Speaker 1: is he just gonna do all of the things that

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Speaker 1: are terrible and bad and everybody's like, that's the worst.

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Speaker 1: This is terrible and just nothing is going to stop.

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Speaker 1: But no reality can intersect with his like master plan.

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Speaker 1: So reality has already intersected with him in the form

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Speaker 1: of many of his advertisers pulling up and running out

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Speaker 1: the door, right is you know, Apple was his biggest

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Speaker 1: brand advertiser. They're spending like forty eight million doll it

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Speaker 1: was a quarter. They're just gone now, and he needs

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Speaker 1: that money, like you know, they saddled this company up

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Speaker 1: with something like thirteen billion dollars in debt. They have

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Speaker 1: to pay a billion dollars a year just an interest

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Speaker 1: on the debt. Twitter is making about five billion a

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Speaker 1: year before all of this happened, and now they've lost

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Speaker 1: a significant amount of their advertising. We reported this week

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Speaker 1: that in Europe their ads are down like forty nine

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Speaker 1: percent week over week, So that's reality for him. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how many advertisers have actually pulled out do you know

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Speaker 1: the dollar amount? Well? Sadly they don't text me when

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Speaker 1: they do it. You know, what we've what we've heard

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Speaker 1: is that it is just many, many, many millions. You

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Speaker 1: said Apple was their biggest advertiser. Is that? Yeah, their

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Speaker 1: single biggest brand advertiser, because apparently Apple doesn't advertise on Facebook. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Interesting apples like increasingly finding no friends in the social

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Speaker 1: media landscape, which is like kind of makes sense. I mean,

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Speaker 1: given their business model and what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 1: But if Apple was their largest and they're doing you

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Speaker 1: said forty eight million a quarter, yeah, I mean, sure

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Speaker 1: there's somebody who's working on the back of the envelope

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Speaker 1: math on this. But I the thing that I always

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Speaker 1: thought was most striking in the early days of the

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk is gonna buy Twitter conversation? I think I

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Speaker 1: want to say, maybe Mike Isaac, maybe it was a

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Speaker 1: group of people did a story at the Times that

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Speaker 1: was like, here's what musques like plans are, or maybe

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Speaker 1: it's just a reblog of your story. I don't I

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Speaker 1: never never know these days, But did you get those

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Speaker 1: I think I think they broke up. They broke some

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm willing to admit that maybe someone else

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Speaker 1: is broken news, but they were like one of the

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Speaker 1: parts of the plan was like he's going to eliminate

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Speaker 1: the reliance on advertiser revenue. He's gonna have it by

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Speaker 1: five or something, and the other you know, revenue is

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Speaker 1: gonna be derived from like subscription and payments and all

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Speaker 1: this other stuff. But the company's revenue, right I believe

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Speaker 1: is the number is derived from advertising in two, like

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Speaker 1: in the Year of Our Lord two. So if that

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Speaker 1: goes away, do you know what happens? Do you have

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Speaker 1: any ideas anybody spoken to you on like what that

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Speaker 1: looks like if suddenly he can't afford to pay people

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Speaker 1: and can't keep the lights on. Yeah, I mean, it

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Speaker 1: just looks like a company going out of business, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, one must but more sifically, what must took over?

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Speaker 1: He was like, we we can't rule out that this

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Speaker 1: company is going to go bankrupt. You know. That was

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Speaker 1: sort of his opening pep rally to the troop was

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Speaker 1: like we're fun. He's like, I'm glad, yeah, But but

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Speaker 1: what's amazing is that after telling everyone that instead of

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Speaker 1: being like, you know, here's my my five point plan

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Speaker 1: to return as to profitability, he was like, We're going

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Speaker 1: to piss off all the advertisers, We're going to restore

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Speaker 1: sixty accounts from the worst Twitter users of all time,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna start a fight with Apple, which we

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Speaker 1: literally call it a war. Right, So, I mean, the

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Speaker 1: man is not making rational decisions. See, that's what I believe.

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Speaker 1: But then you've got these like weird Mr Mosque people

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Speaker 1: who are like, who are like that is truly what

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Speaker 1: they are is the Mr must people. They're like, either

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Speaker 1: don't understand the long game he's playing, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, my dude, I feel like there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways to play a long game that doesn't

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Speaker 1: look this stupid. Like isn't it so amazing too that

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Speaker 1: that is an exact replica of how people treated Trump, right,

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Speaker 1: because it was always you know, Mr Trump, you know

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Speaker 1: you're here to say no matter what, like the cree

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Speaker 1: easiest ship that Trump ever did, there were always people

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Speaker 1: there to tell you that it was nine dimensional chess. Listen.

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Speaker 1: I hate to say this, but I think people need

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Speaker 1: Christ back in their lives. That's what this podcast is about, right,

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Speaker 1: this is actually a pro evangelical Christian podcast to Jesus people.

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Speaker 1: But there is an argument. I think, doesn't it feel

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Speaker 1: like the climate out here is you've got these people

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Speaker 1: who are so like devoted. I mean, Elon Musk Today's

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Speaker 1: abstractions on the devotion to this guy is crazy. Like

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's is sort of like the Trump thing

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Speaker 1: where Trump, you know, early in his campaign, was like

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Speaker 1: I could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and they'd love

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Speaker 1: me for whatever. It's like, yeah, you were right, Like

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Speaker 1: I hate to admit it, but I don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you like his car, maybe you

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Speaker 1: bought some stock, you know, you want to go to Mars.

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Speaker 1: Like that's all fine, those all our normal things that

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Speaker 1: people may engage in. But like when it's so clearly

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Speaker 1: the guy's blowing it, it's like Kanye, Like he reminds

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Speaker 1: me a lot of Kanye right now. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: I ironically d m you on Twitter about this, but

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Speaker 1: I was like, haf has met. It's like it kind

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Speaker 1: of one of those situations where it does seem like

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Speaker 1: it's so far afield from like the Elon Musk character

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Speaker 1: that proceeds this, even for the other stuff that he's done,

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Speaker 1: even for the Peto the Peto guy comments or whatever.

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Speaker 1: It was like a sporadic sort of flare up. Now

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Speaker 1: he's like, here's my weird nightstand with diet cokes on it, caffeine.

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Speaker 1: You know who I know who drinks caffe free diet coke.

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Speaker 1: My parents drinks caffee free dico. They're like, we love

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Speaker 1: to taste of diet coke, but we hate the energy

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Speaker 1: it gives us. So yeah, we we don't want to

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Speaker 1: be all hopped up after three pm. What's he afraid of?

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Speaker 1: Like I thought, he's the guy who like sleeps on

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Speaker 1: the floor at the office, and he like sleeps one

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Speaker 1: hour a night, and like you would think he'd want

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Speaker 1: the regular diet coke. He's like, I need every chemical,

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Speaker 1: but the one that actually will help me stay awake,

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Speaker 1: Like that's just how happen. So that's how I've got

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Speaker 1: to roll. Also, the one that's actually natural. I don't

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Speaker 1: want that. We're all watching the car crash, right, we're

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Speaker 1: like kind of rubber neck and like I just looked

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Speaker 1: at my feed and I can't even think of anything

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Speaker 1: to talk about on Twitter anymore except Elon Musk being dumb,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, it's like I don't there's no other

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Speaker 1: topic that seems interesting, and like people like little world Cup.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, who cares. We're watching the World Cup of

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Speaker 1: Guys flaming out right now? You know? Yeah, he really

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Speaker 1: does feel like not just the main subject but sort

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Speaker 1: of the only subject sometimes, and he'll tweet literally anything.

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Speaker 1: You know, He'll just be like I put tooth raised

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Speaker 1: on my toothbrush and people will be like, uh, oh well,

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Speaker 1: I hate to tell Elon Musk, but and then you know,

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Speaker 1: go on with a ninety part thread or they're like

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Speaker 1: by by cryptos get yes exactly, here's an of the

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Speaker 1: tooth brush, but this idea that it's like, oh well,

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Speaker 1: it turns out I'm a little bit smarter than Elon Musk.

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Speaker 1: So I think I'm gonna quote tweet him and just

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Speaker 1: let my followers know that I've got him clocked, buddy,

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Speaker 1: Like low does yourself steam have to be for you

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Speaker 1: to want to stunt on Elon Musk? On the timeline?

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Speaker 1: Have I done this? Everyone has? I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: the only person who hasn't. At this point, you have

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Speaker 1: to maintain the credibility of a neutral reporter. You need

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Speaker 1: to be able because if he decides to grant an

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Speaker 1: interview with somebody, Casey, don't tell me you haven't been

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Speaker 1: thinking about it. If you decided to grant an interview,

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Speaker 1: it'd be such a nightmare. The John he's gonna grant,

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Speaker 1: He'll grant an interview with the Daily Wire. That's who

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Speaker 1: he's going to grant an interview that is going to happen. Ye. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he's not gonna be talking to me anytime soon, I imagine,

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Speaker 1: although you know, Elon, if you're listening, call me. But

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Speaker 1: the thing is, like those interviews suck. If every single

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Speaker 1: question is it like, tell me about like this genocide

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Speaker 1: that you directly cause people are like you are a

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Speaker 1: simple you know you're you're keeping from this guy, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, like I just hate being in

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Speaker 1: that position, So I'm fine to not be doing that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. My opinion is like I am stunned

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Speaker 1: at how insanely bad this looks like. I'm not like

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk is a total idiot. I think he's smart

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Speaker 1: in some ways, sure, but there are so many ways

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Speaker 1: this could have gone better. I believe in every intersector,

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Speaker 1: every you know, crossroads he got to it was like, well,

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Speaker 1: you could have driven down the road and made it

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Speaker 1: not so horrible, but you decided to hit this off

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Speaker 1: ramp for reasons that honestly, only edge lords can explain.

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Speaker 1: And the only way they can explain is like, you

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Speaker 1: don't get he's playing chess in nine D chess or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. It's like it's fucking bizarre. So okay,

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Speaker 1: what happens. You're an expert in this field, you have

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Speaker 1: a doctorate in Internet studies, ellen ology one oh one

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Speaker 1: and one oh two. How does this play out? Give

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Speaker 1: me your like, you know, well, look, I don't think

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Speaker 1: Twitter is gonna get banned by Apple anytime soon. Be

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Speaker 1: pretty cool if they did that, right, I mean, that

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Speaker 1: could happen maybe like a sick if Tim Cook was

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Speaker 1: just like you know what, I'm Tim Cook, like, I

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Speaker 1: could buy your company twenty five times over. It's not

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Speaker 1: unimaginable to me. But I think you know, it would

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Speaker 1: create political and pr problems for Apple then it would

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Speaker 1: rather not have. Like Twitter is going to continue to

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Speaker 1: be on the App Store, but if they keep going

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Speaker 1: down this road, they're gonna lose way more of their advertisers,

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Speaker 1: which means that Twitter is just gonna keep losing money.

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Speaker 1: And then Ellen is going to have to decide do

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Speaker 1: I want to make a bunch of really obvious decisions

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Speaker 1: that would bring advertisers back, or do I want to

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Speaker 1: be a free speech crusader who just sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: captains the ship as it sinks into the ocean. And

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Speaker 1: at this point it seems like he's much more in

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Speaker 1: the latter camp. We'll see if you know, losing yet

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Speaker 1: more billions of dollars changes his mind. But there's a

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Speaker 1: potential like right off for right down situation here, right like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if he really tanks it. Some people have suggested to

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Speaker 1: me that, you know, maybe this whole thing is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a ploy to put the thing into bankruptcy

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Speaker 1: and then restructure the debt and you know that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, um and which I guess as possible and

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Speaker 1: then what continue to own it? Uh yeah, or you know,

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Speaker 1: like sell it to some telecom somewhere. You know, it

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Speaker 1: does sort of feel like one potential, like a terrible

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Speaker 1: but hilarious outcome of Twitter, Like do you mean to

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Speaker 1: like Verizon is what you're saying? Well, exactly, It's like

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Speaker 1: a subdivision of Yahoo, you know, subdivision Twitter Holy on

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Speaker 1: every other tweet is just an ad for like one

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Speaker 1: weird trick to remove your belt. It's the chum boxes

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Speaker 1: is in the feed now, I know, I love that

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Speaker 1: beautiful idea. Have you been talking people at other major

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Speaker 1: tech companies? Is there nobody who's looking at this as

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Speaker 1: an acquisition, as like an opportunistic like Google? Google doesn't

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Speaker 1: on Twitter. The thing that the social networks camp by

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Speaker 1: anything right now? Like Facebook tried to buy a gift

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Speaker 1: search engine and the UK told them absolutely not. They

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Speaker 1: said that would ruin competition in the market. So you know,

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Speaker 1: the idea that Facebook would require Twitter, I think is

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Speaker 1: just totally out of the question. Okay. I mean I

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Speaker 1: don't think I don't see Facebook, But you don't think

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Speaker 1: Google would be interested? Um? I think you know, Sooner

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Speaker 1: is such a like chill, laid back guy that I

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Speaker 1: think the prospect of owning Twitter would just probably give

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Speaker 1: him hives. You know, there's just kind of too many problems, right, Microsoft, Microsoft,

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Speaker 1: they wanted to buy Discord so bad, right, they want

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Speaker 1: to pay ten billion dollars for that thing. If they

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Speaker 1: could pick up Twitter for like a billion dollars, Like

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Speaker 1: I could see them wanting to do that. I don't

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Speaker 1: think a billion, it'll be more than a billion, right

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Speaker 1: by the time Musk is done with this, Like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it depends if he drives away every single advertiser on

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Speaker 1: the platform except for the my Pillow guys. Right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Does it feel that way to you though? Right now?

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Speaker 1: I mean, all I can tell you is like the

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Speaker 1: direction that we're going in right, Like, nothing has happened

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Speaker 1: in the past several weeks that have made me feel like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: he's starting to get it. It's like it's exactly what

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Speaker 1: you just said. Every time he's been presented with an

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Speaker 1: on ramp that would lead him to a more rational,

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00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,159
Speaker 1: profitable path, he has chosen the other path. So he

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Speaker 1: could choose a different path and it would change everything,

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Speaker 1: but he's only been choosing one sort of path. M

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Speaker 1: You know, it does seem like kind of impossible that

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Speaker 1: you can just lose all of these people and not

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Speaker 1: have something eventually down the road, like just simply break.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it's broken yet, but like, does

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Speaker 1: it feel like there's something like that on the horizon.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any sense from people that you're talking

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Speaker 1: to who are there that like there's gonna be some

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Speaker 1: kind of catastrophic mom because all these prognosticators like the

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Speaker 1: day that happened, where like I've been in the industry

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Speaker 1: thirty years and it's only a matter of time before

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Speaker 1: it puts one lot of code in and the whole

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Speaker 1: thing goes down. I believe those people like I do.

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Speaker 1: I was like pretty early to saying I think there's

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Speaker 1: probably gonna be like a major outage of Twitter. It

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Speaker 1: could last like a day or more. I still think

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Speaker 1: we could see it. People d M me now and

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Speaker 1: it's like, hey, like my notifications are only showing September,

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Speaker 1: or like they're sending me videos of tweets jumping all

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Speaker 1: around their timeline. So I do think little stuff is

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Speaker 1: starting to break. Maybe the engineers who are still there,

425
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 1: we'll be able to get it under control and it

426
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,159
Speaker 1: won't be a problem. There's also this question of like,

427
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,919
Speaker 1: you know, every service relies on these SSL certifications, but

428
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 1: you need like dozens of them for all the different

429
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,400
Speaker 1: micro services that run your company. And I've been told

430
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,959
Speaker 1: by people tech companies, like at every tech company, one

431
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 1: of these services just stops working because it didn't make

432
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: it onto a spreadsheet, and somebody forgot to renew it,

433
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 1: and the teams that were responsible for managing these spreadsheets

434
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter no longer exist. So you know, that's why

435
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:34,880
Speaker 1: I think that we are likelier than not to see

436
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 1: a multi day outage. But you know it's not a guarantee, right,

437
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,199
Speaker 1: Do you know how many people still work there? Do

438
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:40,880
Speaker 1: we have a number? I think it's like probably around

439
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: two thousand, maybe a little bit less. And how many

440
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 1: people are working there when he took over. That's that's

441
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: got to be like a record or something, right like

442
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,919
Speaker 1: in terms of like reduction and workforce. Yeah, it's a

443
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: pretty huge drop. Yeah, there is a lot of like

444
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 1: engineering talent and otherwise out in San Francisco right now

445
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 1: or the West coast generally for Alan. If it starts breaking,

446
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 1: is that the point where we know like it's real

447
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 1: because it feels all this stuff feels like the six accounts,

448
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: for instance, like has he done the thing? Has he

449
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 1: opened the floodgates? As he released death Con three or

450
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 1: whatever they're calling been told that they have started to

451
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 1: restore some of those accounts. I do you think it's

452
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 1: gonna take? Sometimes these are people like Milo right, Milo

453
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: yan Monopolis. I'm definitely mispronounced his last name. So I

454
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: don't know that accounts specifically, but that that certainly seems

455
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: like an account that would be included yet like something

456
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: that might have been banned for like rampant transphobia, or

457
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 1: for like hate speech or um, I don't know, mobbing behavior,

458
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: things that like Twitter typically banned for. You know, if

459
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 1: you had the wrong opinion about the president, they would

460
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 1: ban you. If you didn't like Trump, shadow ban you

461
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 1: all those people. Yeah, but they're not totally restored yet,

462
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: not not totally yet, but it's it has been decreed

463
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: that they will be. Have you felt any change in

464
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,119
Speaker 1: your feed in what you're seeing? I mean because as

465
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,479
Speaker 1: I do tweet about what Elon Musk does, I do

466
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 1: get a lot of the Mr Musk guys in my replies,

467
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,239
Speaker 1: and I have to say, there isn't actually this perfect meme.

468
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: Have you seen this meme? It's like from the Simpsons

469
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 1: of somebody jumping Okay, so I think it's a I

470
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 1: think it's a Pooh or somebody's chumping in front of

471
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: a pool. Somebody's like trying to shoot him, and the

472
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: way it's labeled is it's essentially like weird. It's labeled

473
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: weird nerds are jumping in front of Elon Musk to

474
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: take a bullet from him. It's like it's like, I

475
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: think the person with the gun is like reasonable feet

476
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: it's like valid criticism. And then see Elon Musk and

477
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: then there's like like weird nerds, you know, defending Elon

478
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 1: Musk or whatever, or we're just we says weird nerds. Yes,

479
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: I have seen and and shared the meme. Yeah, I

480
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: am not much of a meme sharer generally, but man,

481
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: when a Mr. Musky shows up, it's so satisfying to

482
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 1: drop it because it truly like there's nothing they can say.

483
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: It's like, no, they really are just there to defend

484
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: a billionaire for no. No, It's it's so strange and

485
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: like they do have their own by the way, I'm

486
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: sure you've seen them. They have made their own versions

487
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: of the meme that counter they add some stuff. It's like,

488
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to describe it here because

489
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: we've already described far too much of an image for

490
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: the listener, But yes, they have their own sort of

491
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: reverse attack. Simpson's mean but doesn't really land the way

492
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: that one does, which is I mean, I think the

493
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: thing that is, you know, we talked about this a

494
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: little bit before, but this whole idea of this, like

495
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: the cult of Elon Musk, Like I find it somewhat inexplicable,

496
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: and I think partially the pandemic and everybody being alone

497
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 1: and online a lot kind of like created more of

498
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: this energy. Clearly, like the Internet is home to the fanboy.

499
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: And I will say, I don't want to like, you know,

500
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: miss gender all of the fans or whatever, but there

501
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: are they are mostly boys. I mean, let's just be

502
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: I want to be clear. Like they present as very well,

503
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: they present as presenting is very masculine. That's what ELSE say.

504
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: But the Internet is the home of the fan boy.

505
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: And like I think, like you know, you listen, you

506
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 1: have a long a long history of covering technology companies,

507
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: and so you've seen at intervals this kind of fan

508
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: boyish behavior fan behavior. But it does feel like this

509
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: is such a you know, I don't know, it's like

510
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: it feels so personal to people, and I don't fully

511
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: understand the psychology of it, And you know, I wonder

512
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: how much that contributes to his actions, Like does it

513
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: feel like he's almost in some way doing some of

514
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: these things to get the reaction. Yeah. So one way

515
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: that I think Elon Musk is just like you and me,

516
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: is like it's exciting when a lot of people like

517
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: your tweet and retweet it and and like make you

518
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: feel like you're a really smart person who's made a

519
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: clever observation. It turns out that if you're a billionaire,

520
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: like that feels just as good. You know, then if

521
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: you're a common person it should It shouldn't though, right,

522
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we can agree that if you

523
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: and I were billionaires, we would not be on Twitter,

524
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: right I think. I mean I'm actually I disagree. I

525
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: think I would be. And here's why. I think, once

526
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: you reach a certain level of power in this world,

527
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: Twitter is the only way you can feel like a

528
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: human again. Like you you It gives you just a

529
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: sense of danger, right, the idea that I could ruin

530
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: my entire life. You know, people are just thrilled by

531
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: the idea that it could get canceled, you know, so

532
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: they like flirt with it. I love this concept, Like

533
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: it's just like it's like, you know, the only way

534
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: I can feel anything is that's that's what it is. Yeah,

535
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: I think if you're a billionaire, there are lots of ways. One,

536
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: there are lots of ways you can get canceled and

537
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: you don't have to go on Twitter. How would you

538
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: do it? How would you do it? Well, it's funny

539
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: you should ask. I have been thinking a lot about

540
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: this lately. Maybe it's just that the negative feedback is

541
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: actually what he's looking for, you know, like he must

542
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: never hear no from the people around him. So I

543
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: was talking with somebody who worked with him a lot,

544
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: like after the acquisition, and this person was just saying

545
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: that their theory about why he is the way he

546
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: is is because of his media consumption diet, which is

547
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: mostly Twitter. It's mostly sort of you know, right wingers

548
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: on Twitter, and he's just sort of like fallen head

549
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: over heels from them. And of course they're telling him like, yes,

550
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: you're so right about everything, while they sort of you know,

551
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: gas him up. They're also being like, oh, and also

552
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: like do these like horrible things, because like it's the

553
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: only way to protect free speech and civilization, and he

554
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: falls for it. It's weird, though, because that seems dumb.

555
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: I mean, he's obviously not the world's smartest man. Okay,

556
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: let's just be clear. I don't think but have we

557
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: decided who the world's smartest? I don't know like that.

558
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: The Binance guy seems pretty, he's he's like, I don't

559
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: know if he's great. He seems smart, though, I think yeah, maybe, yeah,

560
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: maybe the FTX guy might be the Yeah, he would see. Yeah,

561
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 1: I haven't haven't read much about him lately, but you know,

562
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: as of two months ago, he seemed really smart. He

563
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: seemed really smart up until about two months ago, um

564
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: or a month. It hasn't been that long term. It's

565
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: been two fucking weeks there or something. It's like, that's

566
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: how what's going on with the timeline? Yeah, we haven't

567
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: figured out who the world smartest man is, but I

568
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: think we can all agree Elon Musk is not that person.

569
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that he has to agree with like

570
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: whatever the alternate opinion is like on the left about

571
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: some of these things. And I'm not saying that some

572
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: of the things that the right wing thinks about Twitter

573
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 1: that they're completely baseless. There are probably some pockets some

574
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: places where they either have made bad decisions or overstepped

575
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: or whatever they had employees who were kind of off

576
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: doing their own thing, and it was like not well regulated. Sure,

577
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: like a well regulated militia. Twitter does not have one

578
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: of those. Uh not, Yeah, you must working on it,

579
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: Elon muskeet Um, it's fucking dumb bedside see sorry to gross.

580
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: It's just such a gross bedside scene. It's really like

581
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: there's so many things that could be there. But anyhow,

582
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know who these people are that

583
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: cheering them on, Like it seems like he might be

584
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: able to see through some of like their rhetoric and

585
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: be like these guys seem actually seem kind of dumb,

586
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: you know. I mean this is a guy who's talking

587
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: about and he believes in climate change, right Ellen, Yeah,

588
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean that was his whole thing. He's like, let's

589
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: save the planet or whatever. You know, does he now

590
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: like climate change maybe isn't real? Like is that what's

591
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: going on? That's kind of how it feels. I mean,

592
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: his views on a lot of things just seemed very malleable,

593
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't think there are a lot

594
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: of fixed points there. I like how I'm like Casey explained, Elon,

595
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: you know, I've been writing a lot about this and

596
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: like that is sort of the number one thing that

597
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: I think people want is like explain Elon Musk. And

598
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: what I have found over the past month of writing

599
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: about him almost every single day is that there is

600
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: not a sort of logical through line that I can

601
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: draw for you that explains the guy. He's a whim

602
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: based person. He's a w BP baby. That's something you

603
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 1: can order. Okay, So what's the future here? What? First off?

604
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: Should Twitter die? Is? That is because you end every

605
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: interview I say, I don't always do that. I actually

606
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: have never said that, and so, but thank you for

607
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: pointing it out. I think it'd be a fun little segment.

608
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: Note to Adam and Lyra, we want to leave that

609
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: moment in that's very authentic and real. Um No, what

610
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: is the now? You've got me very self conscious about

611
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: using the phrase with what in future in it? Yeah,

612
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: but like what is the future hold here? It should

613
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: Twitter die? First off? Let me ask you that, and

614
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: you're opinion, I think it's still a little bit too

615
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: early for me to say, like I think Twitter should die. Also,

616
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm very self interested in the continuation of Twitter, Like

617
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's been an incredible story for my business.

618
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: And too. I use it to talk about a lot

619
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: of things. I learned a lot of things. I still

620
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: had a lot of value from Twitter. So you know,

621
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily want it to die. I certainly don't

622
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: want it to die before there is a good replacement

623
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: for it. I don't think there is a good replacement

624
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: for it yet. Yeah, there's a lot of people competing

625
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: for that. Do you like any of them? So I

626
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: looked at High and it was absolutely terrible. It's empty,

627
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: I mean empty, but also just random porn stuff that

628
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: was like not even good, not even just you know,

629
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: like if they had been really high quality porn that

630
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to see, how might be. Like I'm sticking

631
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: around here, I'd love to see a resurgence of Tumbler.

632
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: I think Tumbler is such an expressive and fun I mean,

633
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: it's not perfect. All of them are bad in some way,

634
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: but um, do I like any of them? I mean

635
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: I like mastered On a lot. As I mentioned before,

636
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: I think the problem with masted On is it has

637
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: a lot of the qualities of Twitter. The onboarding is

638
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: terrible and confusing, and when somebody simplifies that to a

639
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: place where it's as simple as sign up for a

640
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: Twitter account and you get to see all the things

641
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: you want to see. I think there's that's the closest

642
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: I've seen to something that is both feels like Twitter

643
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: but also feels different than Twitter in a way, like

644
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: feels like it's doing something or trying something new. It's

645
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: gonna be a while before everybody can adopt it because

646
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: there's no good you know, there's no good on ramp

647
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: to it if we can use our on ramp metaphor.

648
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: I look, I wrote about Masses on Twice seventeen. When

649
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: it first came out. It was like having a moment

650
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: and I wrote a piece and interview the guy and

651
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: seems like an interesting guy and he's kind of kept

652
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: going all these years, just sort of like this, ain't it? Man?

653
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: Like you just like pull it open. It just it

654
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: doesn't feel alive the way that the Twitter feels. I

655
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: guess you could get there, but it's just not I'm

656
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: not gonna be a defender. I don't want to be

657
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: a massive on defender. I haven't heard people say this,

658
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: and I think there's a debate going on and I

659
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: think there's some big issues with it. I mean, one

660
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: is like that it's a small group of people. It's

661
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: a very specific for people. It's a pretty white group

662
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: of people. That's one thing that's that's for sure. It's

663
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: a very eurocentric group of people in a lot of ways.

664
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: What it is It's like, it's like if all the

665
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: people who said that they were going to move to

666
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: Canada when Trump became president started a social network, Like

667
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: that's what Mason is. That is definitely a vibe. Though

668
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: I think it's changing daily. I feel like I can

669
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: see a progression again, I don't. I'm not like Mr Mastedon.

670
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: I will say that of all of the things I

671
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: messed around, I haven't tried post yet because I've signed

672
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: up for the waitlist and I have I've heard nothing

673
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: but bad things about it. Does not seem great to me.

674
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: I also think, like, what is interesting about massed On

675
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: and why it's worth exploring as a potential successor is

676
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: this top down approach. I think right now we're experiencing

677
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: the most problematic version of the top down sort of

678
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: social network ownership. And I think all of our social

679
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: network issues are like very much linked to the fact that,

680
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: like the control for the user is removed and it's

681
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: just kind of the whims of Mark Zuckerberg wants to

682
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: change your feed tomorrow, He's just gonna do that, or

683
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: if Elon must decides like the Nazis are back and

684
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do about it except just ride

685
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: the fucking wave. And I think that, like there's something

686
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: to be said for a version of this. I think

687
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: the decentralizing. I hate to say it, okay, I do.

688
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: I hate to use decentralized in this way, but this

689
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: idea of a decentralized social network where all of these

690
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: different places can talk but they're not all controlled in

691
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: the same way. He's really interesting. I don't see anybody

692
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: else trying, like what's the next thing? Like are you

693
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: a TikTok user? Yeah, but I don't. I don't post,

694
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: you know, just sort of like check out the vital

695
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: dances because you're a grown up, you're not posting. Come on.

696
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: My specific criticism of TikTok is it so much of

697
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: it is amateur comedians taking seventeen cracks at the same joke,

698
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Where it's like you got

699
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: the selfie cam and they have the little premise and

700
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: they're like, here's like every um coffee in San Francisco

701
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: or whatever, and then it's just that for like four

702
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: and a half minutes. Is it the thing where it's

703
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: back and forth and they're like one of them is

704
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: like like one person is the coffee and then it's

705
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: the it's the same person, but it's a person like

706
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: drinking the coffee or whatever. I love the actions hilarious.

707
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: But you're also an improv guy. I mean we should

708
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: say you're a big You're big improv dude. Your second

709
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: job is your profashional improv person. The second job is

710
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: to make people laugh. Jo. You love to live, laugh

711
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: and and love. Really, the only trinity of life is

712
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. I'm living laughing. You do you do

713
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: do improv? I do do improv. That's like sort of

714
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: my creative outlets. So you're seeing a lot of bad

715
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: comedians on there because the algorithm is leading you to

716
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 1: these comedians. Like the truth is, that's like once TikTok

717
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: figured out I was gay, it started showing me a

718
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: lot of like Broadway and like theater kid content, and

719
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: like I do actually enjoy it, but I don't enjoy

720
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: it to the like degree that TikTok shows it to me.

721
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, there has to be something that is not

722
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: like high school musical that I can watch right now.

723
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: But TikTok's algorithm is sort of like, you spent two

724
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: seconds extra on this one video, and now we think

725
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: this is it for you. It's like you know, which

726
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,479
Speaker 1: like sometimes it very much is. And I think taketok

727
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: like somebody changing the channels for you. If you're just

728
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: sitting there watching TV and you don't know what's gonna

729
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: come up and act, and it's sort of like, I

730
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: guess I'll keep waiting, maybe something really good it's gonna

731
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: show up. It's a slot machine, man, Like. I think

732
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: that's why it's so powerful, is just the idea that

733
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: maybe a good video will will happen next. But TikTok

734
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: can't replace what Twitter does. Facebook is not going to

735
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: come back, right, No young people are gonna be joining

736
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: Facebook anytime soon. I don't think so. I don't know

737
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: what the demo of Twitter is. I don't know if

738
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 1: it's that young, to be honest, I mean I feel

739
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: like it's all right. I mean like that's why the

740
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: media is obsessed with this story, is like this is

741
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: the only social network that any of us were actually

742
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: good at right Well, I think actually a big part

743
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: of the story is the the perceived importance of Twitter

744
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: versus the actual importance of Twitter. And I actually had

745
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: Gia Tolentino on the show and we talked about this,

746
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: which is, like, it feels real important to us, and

747
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: there's like two million people or something on it, which

748
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: is not a lot of people by comparison to other

749
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: social networks. But there are a lot of people who

750
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: are in media who decide on, like what the headline

751
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: is for tomorrow's paper, who are like writing stories that

752
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: are going to inform this larger sort of piece of culture.

753
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: And for some reason, we all think and Elon Must

754
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: seems to agree, and I think he's kind of wrong

755
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: that like it is as important as everybody thinks it is.

756
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: You know, talks about you know, it's gonna save humanity

757
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: and civilization and all that. Like I don't I don't

758
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: see that as being an outcome for Twitter. Like it

759
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: it's as a sort of media politics sports app with

760
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of entertainment thrown in. And I

761
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: think you could build a hugely valuable business around that,

762
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: but you gotta make some different decisions your Instagram is

763
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: one of my bright spots in my day because it

764
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: can I can I tell you that that you post

765
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: Casey if you don't follow him on Instagram, I don't

766
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: even know if your ship is public, but like everybody

767
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: should follow him. It is every day, And I don't

768
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: know where you find the time to this, To be

769
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: honest with you, like, maybe you do it quickly. You

770
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: follow the right accounts. Every day. He'll put funny tweets

771
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: that he finds on his Instagram, which to me is

772
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: like how I would like to experience Twitter, to be honest,

773
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: like a highly curated experience of the best stuff on there,

774
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: and I like will regularly at the end of my day,

775
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: I sit down. I have this lounge chair, I sit in.

776
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: I'll have a drink, maybe a little cigaretta, which I

777
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: like to smoke. I'll setting the scene here, the lights

778
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: are down low, maybe there's a fire roaring in the fireplace,

779
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: and I'll just I'll whip open Install Graham and just

780
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: open up Casey Newton's fucking feed his stories and just

781
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: ride just joyous waves of Twitter comedy. I just say, Josh,

782
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: I put stuff that's like extra gay and sexually explicit

783
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: on my close Friends story, I could add I want

784
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: to see everything. I want to see all of it.

785
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: And as you know, I'm an ally, so I'm ready

786
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: for whatever. As you know, an ally what all of

787
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: the allies are saying all over the place, It's like, no,

788
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: it's so good and and and like all the time,

789
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there just giggling, and Laura's like, what are

790
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: you doing, I'm like, Okay, Sy's feed is so good.

791
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: Well nice to me to say. Okay, So two things.

792
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: So one all that, so I have an alt account.

793
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: I followed some like funny people, some gay people, like

794
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: the Outgruth just serves me that stuff. So it's really

795
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: mostly just Twitter algorithm that is sharing that stuff for me. Um.

796
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: But to that is the other thing I love about Twitter.

797
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: Twitter was the only funny social network. You think I

798
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: ever laughed looking at Instagram? No, like, but it's like,

799
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, and I guess TikTok every once in a while,

800
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: but it's like, you know, I'm not. I'm not laughing

801
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: looking at most stuff. You never laughed reading Facebook. So

802
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: that that's what I love about you know. I mean,

803
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: TikTok has a little bit of comedy and some of

804
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: the some of the comedians aren't bad. Some of the

805
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: stuff is quite inventive. But I tweeted about this like

806
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and I'm like, the thing I

807
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: think if Twitter does implode, ultimately the thing the number

808
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: one thing I will miss the most. It's not breaking

809
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: news or people arguing or can you believe what Trump tweeted?

810
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: It is like there is a type of written comedy

811
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 1: that grew out of Twitter that could only exist on Twitter,

812
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: that only functions on Twitter. Really, I guess it kind

813
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: of functions if you throw out your Instagram feed, But

814
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: it only functions because I know the language of Twitter,

815
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: and that's what makes these things funny. I will say

816
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: not to not to go back to Mastodon, but I

817
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: have seen and experienced things like that I Mastodon, which

818
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: has given me a tiny glimmer of hope that it

819
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: could exist elsewhere. You've laughed at a mastodonto, so I think, yes,

820
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: first off, let's get they got to change that terminology,

821
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: but I think they Unfortunately the app that I have

822
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: been using predominantly to and interface with Mastheton is called two.

823
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: So it's a real problem for me personally. Are you

824
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: okay there's are a breaking news story going on right now.

825
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: I saw you looking to the side. Oh no, Brooke

826
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: Hammerling is complaining because it's okay, So whatever the story is. Basically,

827
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: when we started our podcast, they gave us Harra Swisher's

828
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: old feed and it became a thing. What was the feed?

829
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: It was was say feed podcast, but the Times gave

830
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: us the Hardwork feed. And so now some people are

831
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: seeing hard Fork in their Spotify wraps even though they

832
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: were really sway listeners, and they're having emotions about it

833
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: and so anyway, so that that was what I was

834
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: looking at. And Brooke Camerling is yelling at you on Twitter.

835
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, she said, no offense to the guys who

836
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: hosts at and White Times. That's me at me next time.

837
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: But she goes out of her way to say she

838
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: hasn't listened to Hard Work, So um, that's where she's at.

839
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I get it's it's two guys. Two guys

840
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: guys are over. It was guys are extremely We're done

841
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 1: with you. We don't need any of us anymore. She says,

842
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: the two guys on a podcast right now, turn us off.

843
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: Are you still listening to the off? They can't help themselves.

844
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: But it's for you know, it's for the like of

845
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: private by guys. I mean honest, So there might be

846
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: at some guys listening. Um, you know, you know he

847
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: had a strong woman reporter, the best in her space,

848
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: one of the best all time, legend, she'd a great

849
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: fucking podcast, And these two white guys come steamrolling into

850
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: the feed exact classic, honestly classic guy behavior. How many

851
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: timeff In a way, it's like a kind of a

852
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: very long you interrupting her when you think about like

853
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: a very big, like technically difficult interruption for ultimate. Really

854
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: it really is. You're like, here's how a podcast should

855
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: actually sing kara. But yeah, I get I understand her argument. Um,

856
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: but I do love that podcast that hard Fork. Wait

857
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: wait bit, you're you're doing this podcast for a company?

858
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: Oh I would? I was like, can I get Ben

859
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: Shapiro's feet? Can we slide me in there instead of

860
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro? I think that would. I think the fans

861
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: is what that's what they're looking for to another one

862
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: from one Jewish guy another They won't even notice. Yeah. No,

863
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: I would love to be split into somebody's feed. My

864
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: dream in life is for somebode like we have this

865
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: dormant feed. It's got like a hundred thousand subscribers. Do

866
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: you mind if we just put your podcast on it?

867
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: Like they somebody should sell those that should be a business.

868
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: Should be a business. They should be they should be

869
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: dealing those out, you know, like a like a drug

870
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: dealer for the highest bidder. Why isn't go Daddy invest

871
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: in your service that sells podcast feed? This is I'm

872
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: just a free fucking idea, honestly, and that's why so

873
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: poor to listen to pockets. You never know when you're

874
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: gonna hear a billion dollar idea on this podcast. Thank you?

875
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: All right, so listen, we're probably running. I mean, we've

876
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: gone through a lot here today, but we should probably

877
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: do a little plug time for you, which I feel

878
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: like it is what was what people want. And we

879
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: we have touched on hard fork, which is the name.

880
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions, but I know I

881
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: understand what it is. My impression is that if you

882
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: were a stranger coming to the name hard Fork, you'd

883
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: have a lot of confusion. Tell us about in a

884
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: hard fork. Your your listeners are very sophisticated. They probably

885
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: already know what a hard fork is, you know, a

886
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: hard fork does not want to explain it. You're like,

887
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: I actually don't know, Like actually I was hoping you

888
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: knew what it was, because no, here's the deal. We uh,

889
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 1: when we pitched the show, it was you know, last fall,

890
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: and we were like, well, obviously crypto is here to stay.

891
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: And so it's like a good kind of crypto term.

892
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: And in crypto, a hard work is where something has

893
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: gone disastrously wrong and they sort of have to rewind

894
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: the blockchain back and start over. Right. Yeah, it's also

895
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: a coding thing. I mean, I think most of your

896
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: listeners have probably forked code at least fifty times. Okay,

897
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: we're forking and forking over here, playing on forking several

898
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: lines of code after this before you fork your code. Yeah,

899
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: so that's that's what it is. And uh, you know,

900
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: we're we're six episodes in. We're having a good here's

901
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: the Here's what I'm gonnae peop about the show because

902
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: it's very low concept. It is two people talking, but

903
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: it is just like this, it's kind of like the

904
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: other other. It's like that we don't interrupt each other

905
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: as much as you do on this show. You know,

906
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: it's a little more chill. But what I will say

907
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: is there's a lot of like tech podcasts out there,

908
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: and we are truly trying to have a good time.

909
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: We're not here to doom and gloomy about the end

910
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: of the world. We're gonna try to make you laugh

911
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: while you're listening to the show. And it turns out

912
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: if you just do that, you're separating yourself from the

913
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: vast majority of all tech podcast I hear you, actually

914
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: and I and I love that for you and for

915
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: Kevin Ruce, your co host. Heaven is wonderful listen. I've

916
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: listened to many, to several at least one episodes. I've

917
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: enjoyed all of them. And well, you know what's the

918
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: funny thing is it just appeared in my I was

919
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: I had subscribed this way, it just showed up. I

920
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: like that you got that. I like that you made

921
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: that point about me interrupting it is a problem that

922
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: I have. Well, that's like I like coming on the show. Also,

923
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: by the way, you know I used to work for you.

924
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: I know you a great exeative gratitude. You hired me

925
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: at the Verge and it really set me up for

926
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: an amazing things, So of course I would talk to

927
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: you about anything. But when I when I first joined,

928
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,959
Speaker 1: I was so intimidated by you because you held my

929
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: my very fate in your hands. And so I'm excited

930
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 1: to come on your show and like, actually, I feel

931
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: like I can interrupt you back and not be the

932
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: end of my life. So for yes, you know, I

933
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: was raised now I'm I'm I'm a atheist basically, but

934
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: I was raised in the Jewish ow And as you know,

935
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: our love language is interruption. Um to me, it's anti semitic.

936
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: If you're like mad about interruptions that, let's say that.

937
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: And we we have to stand by our Jewish friends

938
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: during this moment. We really do. It's not just. It's

939
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: not just when it's really big stuff. Sometimes it really

940
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: small stuff, Like if you don't like me interrupting you,

941
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: that's you're saying my culture is not valid. Uh, And

942
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: so I think it's important to just put that out there.

943
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: But I did hire you at the Verge, but only

944
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: because you're a brilliant genius who's amazing at what you do,

945
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: and to not hire you would have been so obviously

946
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: a mistake. I think I've read one good story when

947
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: you hired me at the Verge. You you you you took

948
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: a risk. It was do you remember the story? Yes,

949
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: so the story that I broke about Twitter. It was

950
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: about Twitter. It was literally out. It was they had

951
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: bought this music company and we're making a standalone music app.

952
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 1: And it was like, they do that, and they did

953
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: that and it didn't go great for them, and they

954
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: shut it down called Twitter Music. Oh oh, Twitter Music.

955
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: I would subscribe to the Twitter music like account for

956
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: a while and they would post like music. Yes, right,

957
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 1: they put they posted music. Yeah, maybe maybe you want

958
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: to bring that back. I mean, I gotta try something,

959
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: okay real quick before we go. You're protected, of course

960
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: by your your various jobs that you do in the

961
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: world of journalism odd jobs. Yeah, I mean you are,

962
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: technically speaking still you were still a member of the

963
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: Verge staff craft. I'm a contributing editor there, you know.

964
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: And you also have platform Er. Yes, so my main

965
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: job as I read a newsletter called Platformer, which you

966
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: can find a platformer dot news. Um. But yeah, is

967
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: it a substack. That's a substack. It is on the

968
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: sub stack platform. Yeah. Yeah. How are you feeling about

969
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: that relationship? You feeling good? About Substack. I mean, I

970
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: think I think it's fine. I think when you look

971
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: at what the other platforms take from their creators in

972
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: terms of just raw cash, like sub stack actually is

973
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: the most generous. You keep ninety percent of it, you

974
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 1: know before you're a little stripe fees. So I feel

975
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: okay about it. But you know, nothing is forever is

976
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: sort of how okay? You heard it here first, casey

977
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: and taking platform or off sub Stack shocking stuff. You

978
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: heard it here first. The ephemerality of all fairs. It's true, though,

979
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: every time I think about joining anything, I'm kind of

980
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: like could end up like Twitter. You know you never could.

981
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: I could go sideways. I was gonna say, you're protected

982
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: by your many many jobs in journalism. One do you

983
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: worry about your blue check mark going away? I plan

984
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: to keep it. The thing for me, like the r

985
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: O I on my use of Twitter is insane. It's like,

986
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: you can't I can't compare myself to any other Twitter

987
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: user because I tweet about the ongoing destruction of Twitter,

988
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: and every day people pay me to read more about it.

989
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: So it's like I will pay eight dollars for a checkmark.

990
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: I'll pay you. You will pay eight dollars to check,

991
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: because the last thing I wanted somebody impersonating me. Josh.

992
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: Imagine an impersonating Casey Newton. Come on it, I mean,

993
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: isn't that isn't, But won't I still be able to

994
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 1: impersonate you as long as I put like quotes around

995
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: my name, you impersonate me. I will come for you, Josh.

996
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: I would love for you. I should maybe I should

997
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: do that. I shouldn't start in casing an impersonation account.

998
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. Listen, Casey, this has been so fun,

999
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 1: so wonderful. I don't know if we got anywhere, learned anything,

1000
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: but I do feel like we had I hope not. Yeah,

1001
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: I hope we had a blast while doing it. When

1002
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: does Hardfork come out? Hard Fork comes out every Friday morning.

1003
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's here's what I say about my job.

1004
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: It's I write newsletters that are like very serious emails

1005
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: you get during the week, and then on Friday you

1006
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: get to have a drink with your friend Kevin and

1007
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: Casey with hard work. So you know you can chase

1008
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: this with hard Fork. I recommend subscribing right after you

1009
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: get done listening to this episode, even during if you

1010
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: can multitask and then you're you're doing your newsletter. How

1011
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: often are you doing that? We do it. It's a Monday, Tuesday,

1012
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: and Thursdays. Okay? And do you have any bombshells coming

1013
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: on Twitter anytime soon? Look look through the last month

1014
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: of stuff, like with Joey Scheper. We have broken more

1015
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: news in the past month that platform has like probably ever.

1016
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, there are more more scoops are coming. I

1017
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: love it. I love it, and I love you Casey.

1018
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: You're the best. You're the best of what you do

1019
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: and you're a wonderful human. And thank you for joining

1020
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 1: us on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Josh is great.

1021
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: There you have it. What more can be said on

1022
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: the topic of Twitter, I mean probably more, and we

1023
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: probably will say more, but I think I feel like

1024
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: we have exhausted all possible angles and I and I

1025
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: feel better for it, honest I feel cleansed in a way.

1026
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: So that is our show for this week. We'll be

1027
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 1: back next week with more what future And as always,

1028
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: I wish you and your family the very best.