WEBVTT - The Sixth Bureau Episode 6: Nothing Is Holy 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:07.320 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.520 Hey everybody, this is the last episode of our show. 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.000 If you haven't listened to the first five, you probably 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.120 want to go back and start from the beginning. If 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.119 you are up to speed, thank you so much for listening. 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:21.960 We really hope you're enjoying it. We've had such a 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:23.400 blast working on this series. 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.599 That's actually true, and if you like the show, tell 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.240 your friends about it, share it. That's how the show 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.240 will continue to grow. And of course rating and reviewing 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:36.720 it helps too, So again, thanks. Here's the final act. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.000 Let me just last Tree Engine. It might actually be 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.240 this one. I'm three nine when ye had two Communia 0:00:48.440 --> 0:01:01.680 Tree Engine. 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.200 Just we have butterflies a little bit. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:13.720 Yeah, this is an empty number. 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:16.280 Valid. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.600 Jordan and I are in Bloomberg's New York headquarters. It's late, 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.319 late enough that it's mid morning and Nanjing. We're here 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.920 because we're trying to call Shoe Yan June, and we're 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.480 with our producer and Amandarin speaking colleague to help us 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:32.200 with translation. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:34.760 Is invalid. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:37.080 We have a bunch of phone numbers we found in 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.319 the court documents for Shoe and all his aliases, as 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:42.440 well as a bunch of his associates. 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.479 Three eight eight, two threes one six. 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:47.520 We've been going down the list, making these calls and 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:49.720 getting nowhere for over an hour. 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:54.040 And then something funny happens with one of the shoe numbers. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.000 Instead of getting a recording that says the line has 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.200 been disconnected, this number does something different. It rings a 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:06.880 few times and then nothing, almost as if someone's picked 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.640 up and is just sitting there without saying anything. It's 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:12.960 just blank space, silence. 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.280 H it's weird. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:16.960 That was weird. 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:18.720 Yeah, literally silence. 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:22.760 Yeah, it's getting weird. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:23.520 Yeah. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.760 Then the call ins whoever's on the other end hangs up, 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:34.680 so we call again and the same thing happens. A 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:43.200 few rings, then nothing. There's twenty six seconds of silence, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:49.960 and then finally our colleague stepts in and says, shoot, you. 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:56.040 Know what you want to s and juma uh ninshu 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:12.040 the thing that's dumas PM go downham. 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:16.040 Wow. 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.560 So we just a call number that associated with Shrian Jing. 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.280 Somebody picked up the phone and I asked him if 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:31.120 he's Shuan Jin. He said who are you? I repeated, 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.440 I'm looking for Shuan Jing, and uh he said again, 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.200 who are you then I said, I'm a reported from 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:38.960 Boomberg News. 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:40.360 He hang up on me. 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:49.840 What Wow, Well, I'll tell you what he didn't say 0:03:50.080 --> 0:04:00.320 is I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, from Bloomberg New and 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:05.720 iHeart podcasts. This is the sixth Bureau. I'm Jordan Robertson. 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:13.040 And I'm Drake Bennett. I did not expect that at all. 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:15.600 I didn't either. I don't think any of us. I 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.320 don't think any of us. We don't know that that 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.480 was Shoe on the phone, but it was his number 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.760 and it sounded like him. We've heard Shoe's voice. You 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:28.279 have two plus Taking a call from an unknown US 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.400 number which was actually attached to a burner phone Bloomberg 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.880 gave us solely for the purpose of making these calls. 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.280 Seems a little like something he do. And our colleague 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:38.120 mentioned another thing. 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.800 He has a little bit of local accent. I assume 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:42.839 from jung Su area. 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.119 Jung Su Province is where Shoes from. 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.800 He's a little bit guarded like. He didn't confirm, neither 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.960 deny or confirm who he is, just asked him, repeating 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:53.760 the question. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:54.400 Why are you? 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.960 Of course, this wasn't the first time we tried to 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.479 reach him. Him two letters while he was incarcerated, and 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.159 he'd responded by telling his lawyers to tell us that 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.360 he didn't want to talk to us or ever hear 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.720 from us again. But by the time we called this 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:14.000 number from our offices, Shoe wasn't in an American prison anymore. 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:20.000 He wasn't even in America. We'll get back to that first, 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:21.640 we need to catch you up on the fall up 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.320 from his arrest, which profoundly shook the MSS. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.960 One place we can trace the ripple effects of Shoe's 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:35.080 arrest is Chicago with G Chao Chun, the engineering grad 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.040 student who still texted his parents for grocery shopping tips. 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.240 That is good c cucumber available now. 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.679 The boy spy who texted pictures of his MSS cash 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:45.640 to his friends. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.120 Fucker, are you even there to photograph this? 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:52.000 Photographed this sneakily delete after you see it, And. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.320 Who worked as a spotter for Shoe Yen June. 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:54.960 Are you there? 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:56.320 I have a favorite to ask. 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:57.120 I'm here. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.080 Please go ahead, brother Shoe, which. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.600 Is why an undercover FBI agent approached him on the 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:10.640 street in Chicago after she was arrested. Parker Wow, the 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.560 undercover told G that was she arrested. He was his 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.440 new MSS handler, and G believed him. The two of 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.719 them met three times in that same Hyatt hotel room. 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.719 Each time the FBI learned more about what G was doing, 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:29.279 until they decided they'd learned enough. On September twenty fifth, 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.320 twenty eighteen, G in the undercover's final meeting ended abruptly. 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:43.240 This is wrong. Two FBI agents, very much not undercover, 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.960 burst into the hotel room. That panic voice yelling wait wait, 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.599 that's actually the undercover, still in character as an MSS 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.279 handler getting busted as part of the plan. He's handcuffed 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.360 and led out of the room, and then the two 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.240 FBI agents turned to their real target. 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:09.240 What's here, Copeland chief? Yes, yes, okay, So you. 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.760 Want a lawyer, a mind tuble, Well, that's what we 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.520 want to talk about. Yeah, he was. He was arrested 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.560 and went on trial in the fall of twenty twenty two, 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.560 roughly a year after Shoe, and was convicted of acting 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.840 as an agent of a foreign government and making a 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.520 material false statement to the army. He was sentenced to 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:28.720 eight years in prison. 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.400 G wasn't the only one in this roundup. There were 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.760 other arrests and prosecutions of people connected to Shoe. A 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.640 Chinese hacker who worked with the sixth Bureau was apprehended 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.360 as he arrived in Los Angeles for a cybersecurity conference. 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.880 An engineer working for Apple's self driving car effort was 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.640 arrested in charged with theft of trade secrets. He was 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:51.360 one of the engineers Shoe and g had done a 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:55.239 background check on. Shoe's boss. Joh Wrong and other MSS 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.440 colleagues were indicted in absentia for a series of cyber 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:03.680 attacks on Aviation Company and Arthur Gow, the Honeywell engineer 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.160 who Shoes secretly recorded when he came to give a 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.640 talk in Nanjing. He was indicted too. He pled guilty 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.800 to export control violations and testified at Shoe's trial. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.760 These cases were like tracers marking the outlines of networks 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.400 that had previously been hidden, but innocent people would also 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.040 get caught up in that hunt. A few weeks after 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.640 Sho's extradition in late twenty eighteen, then Attorney General Jeff 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.240 Sessions announced what he called the China Initiative, a Justice 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:33.959 Department campaign to counter trade secret theft. 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:39.640 We are here today to say enough is enough. We're 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:44.280 not going to take it any more. It's unacceptable. It's 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:49.200 time for China to join the Community of lawful Nations. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:54.920 International trade has been good for China, but cheating must stop. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:00.400 That led to a wave of aggressive, controversial prosecutions. Most 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.800 of the defendants were ethnically Chinese academics working at American 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.959 research institutions, and in most instances, there was no evidence 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.080 that anyone was actually sharing trade secrets. As a result, 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.560 many of the charges were for paperwork violations like failing 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.920 to report ties to Chinese universities. Some of the cases 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.200 were so weak that prosecutors would end up dropping the charges. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.520 It all looked to a lot of people like ethnic profiling, 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.000 and the Biden administration would formally end the program. 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.280 We have heard concerns from the civil rights community that 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:35.319 the China Initiative has fueled the narrative of intolerance and bias. 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:36.360 To many. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.000 That narrative suggests that the Justice Department treats people from 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.160 China or of Chinese descent differently. 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:45.360 The rise in anti Marria. 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.400 But as we know, Shoe was an actual spy and 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.520 when he was taken off the chessboard, it had ramifications. 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.360 Perhaps the most striking one was what stopped happening. Right 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.959 after Shoe's arrest, the FBI noticed that the MSS Industrial 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.600 Espionage Machine essentially shut down. 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.960 The arrest of ju scared them into stopping what they 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.640 were doing, essentially where they had to basically make it 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.760 this large countrywide operational pause to try and figure out 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.400 where or how you got caught. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.720 Alan Kohler, the FBI's former head of counterintelligence. 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:20.840 They didn't want to put any other sources at risk, 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.320 They didn't want to put any more intelligence officers at risk, 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.120 so they just stopped to try and figure out what 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:29.160 was happening. And that was incredibly beneficial to us because 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.000 China wasn't luring Americans out of the US to meet 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.160 them overseas anymore. At the time, that was our biggest 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.520 unknown risk. We just didn't know how much and how 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.920 often this was happening, but we knew it stopped in 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:43.120 the aftermath of Hue. 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:48.800 From the US government's perspective, what was China doing in 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.320 those moments of pause, What actually happens? 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.680 They're probably doing exactly the same thing that we would 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.920 do whenever we experience a copper rise, right, And I 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:57.680 can tell you I've been in the room. When that's 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.160 happened a lot where let's say you have ten operations 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.720 that you launch throughout the US and overseas, and one 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.560 of them dramatically goes south, we would stop what we're 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.800 doing for fear of putting those other operations at risk. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.040 Un Two, we figured out what the heck happened in 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.400 this one operation that blew up in our faces, and 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.840 China was absolutely doing that. They didn't know where the 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.560 hole was, and so that there therefore they had to 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.640 pause until they could try and figure it out. 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.920 Alan says. The MSS hit pause for roughly three years 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.080 as it struggled to pinpoint what exactly had gone wrong. 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:38.000 That's a really long time to shut down an intelligence effort. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.800 And it stayed that way until Shoes trial. 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.880 The United States government had to show everything that they 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.480 did in the case, and China is able to understand, Okay, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.439 here's our weak spots. Here is the person that lured 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.880 him to Belgium. We see how that happened. Okay, you 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.200 you shouldn't have recorded yourself and you shouldn't have put 0:11:58.200 --> 0:11:59.960 all this personal information into the. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.240 Ice that you took that the FBI got access to. 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.280 No to self, do not record secrets by stuff on 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.080 iPhone that you get arrested. 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:10.640 Withl This is where we know this case went sideways. 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.560 We're just not going to make those mistakes again. 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.120 So they learned from the trial too. China learns from 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:16.000 the trial as well. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.600 Oh sure, and they may drag the process out to 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.480 find out exactly what the US government has, how they 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.800 got it, what the sourcing is, et cetera. And in 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:26.720 this U case, it was just that on steroids. 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.360 So the pause ended and the machine started back up. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.320 You know, green light go back at them again. They learned, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.160 they understood exactly what was happening, and they did what 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.280 we do, right. You get smart, you understand what the 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.439 adversaries are doing. You adapt, and you get better. 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.080 So, Jordan, you and I published a magazine feature about 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.400 Shoes case back in twenty twenty two for Bloomberg Business Week. 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:54.080 Yeah, we did. 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.040 But even after the story came out, we couldn't stop thinking. 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:58.679 About it or talking about it or. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.920 Reporting on it, and we kept finding more and more 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.160 great stuff like ga June's not in the print story 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:04.720 at all. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.640 Right, I mean we learned about him after the fact. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.680 Yeah, and Shoe's phone calls we had transcripts of the 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:11.960 recordings when we were at the print story, but it 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.679 wasn't until after that that we got the actual audio. 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.959 Which of course sparked the idea for this podcast. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:18.840 Right. And while we were working on the pitch for 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.240 the pod, like late twenty twenty four, you got a tip. 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:26.160 Yeah, it was quite a tip. So I get a 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.720 call one day kind of late November from a source 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.320 who suggested that I look at the Bureau of Prisons 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.240 website and they said you should look up shoe Yen 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.240 June there. And like so many of these calls, it 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.720 was like unnecessarily crypto. I'm like, what am I gonna 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.480 what am I gonna see? This man got sentenced to 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.400 twenty years, Like I don't need to see it again. 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.120 I know what happened. And so I go and look 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.560 and like he's gone. Shoe Ya June was not there. 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.040 He was not in the system. And at first I 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.920 was like, did shee escape? Did he break out of prison? 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:58.559 It wouldn't be the first time he tried that. 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.559 Yeah, Like I thought, maybe this time he'd actually succeeded. 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.520 So I called the source back and the person was like, no, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.560 he didn't escape. He's been swapped. 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.680 Shu Yen June had been swapped, pardoned by President Biden, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.440 released from prison, and sent back to China. So Hadji 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.360 Chau Chun and a third Chinese man convicted on unrelated charges. 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.960 In exchange, three American citizens in Chinese prisons had been 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:41.640 released and sent home to the US. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.600 It was a prisoner swap, and it's how real life 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:45.960 spy stories often end. 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.800 It was bound to happen. It's part of the deal making. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:50.960 Federal Prosecutor Tim Mangan. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.360 Even if we hadn't gotten a chance to indict him 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.440 and we just caught a spy, this is what happened 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:55.960 with spies. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.720 I don't think anyone on our team was shocked. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.840 Federal prosecut Emily Gruttfield. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.040 You're always surprised to hear it at that moment, but 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.760 it wasn't a shock that overall to think that this 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.040 was something that might occur. Because he was such a 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.360 valuable asset to the Chinese government. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.760 I always thought it was inevitable that he was going 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:17.800 to be traded, and its just a matter of when 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.760 Alan kohlergan. What the case team did is they gave 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.640 the United States a chip that we could play in 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:29.280 the world stage. We put you in jail, we arrested 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.400 his network, We learned a whole lot about how China 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.440 targets Americans. We were able to tell the world how 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:39.760 it happens. And then we actually had this intelligence officer 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.560 in prison that we gave our president the opportunity to 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:49.240 bargain with someone inside China to get Americans back. And 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.920 to me, that's worth letting him out of jail every time. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.440 But not everyone feels that way, even other spies. 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:03.000 I was disappointed. No, I was more than disappointed. I 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:03.920 was angry. 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:09.760 James Olsen, former CIA clandestine officer Encounterintelligence chief. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:15.280 By releasing Hu and his co op d G, I 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.680 felt that much of their work was for naught by 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:23.080 letting him go free. This trial, all that hard work, 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.520 this brilliant operation that Bradley Hope pulled off, had no 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:27.440 lasting impact. 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.240 And some people aren't sure exactly what to think. 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:32.640 Yeah, I was unhappy with that. 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.320 Art Cummings, former head of security at GEED. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:37.360 He was very unhappy with that. 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:38.480 Why is that? 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.320 I just think it sets the wrong message again, you know, 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.680 But again I'm contradicting myself a little bit because he 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.680 was actually a representative of their government. So I don't 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.080 like the fact that it was kind of a paper 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.840 tiger moment. Yeah, he made all that effort and now 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:57.200 bye bye, he's back. Kind of like wow, really, But 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:02.920 at the same time, as a loyal Chinese citizen, I 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:08.560 mean yeah, I always draw the equivalents. The CIA officer 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.080 is lord to Europe and then extradited to a country 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:16.080 and then put in prison, we would be out of 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:17.360 our minds. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.840 Art saying if the situation was reversed, we would do 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.000 everything we could to get that CIA officer back. And 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.560 that's basically what China says they did. In a press 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.040 conference at the time right after the swap, a spokesperson 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.280 for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs made their message clear. 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.480 Through the unremitting efforts of the Chinese government, three Chinese 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.399 citizens wrongfully detained by the US have returned safely to China. 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.200 It once again shows that never ever will China give 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.640 up on its citizens. The motherland will always have their back. 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.199 So once you're back in the motherland, what does that 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.480 actually look like. Well, when it comes to g we 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.080 know a little. He had a life in the US, 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:17.320 he made personal connections, and he hasn't totally abandoned them. 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.920 They just told me about how he was quote unquote 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.000 rescued from the China US prisoner swap. 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.520 Naomi Lyman met Ji chow Chun in Chicago when he 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.000 joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.840 This isn't something he seems to have discussed much with 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.840 either his real or fake MSS handlers, but it became 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.000 a very important part of his American life, and so 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:40.760 is Naomi. 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:45.119 I only ever saw him being gentle and kind. He 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.439 would sit next to people on the train who just 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:54.479 looked lonely, and he would just talk to them, just 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.360 in a loving way, just how's your day going, where 0:18:58.400 --> 0:18:59.119 are you headed to? 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.439 They were really close friends. G was at Naomi's wedding 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.399 and was the only person she invited into the Mormon 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:07.560 temple for the ceremony. 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:12.200 My best friends weren't there. I had nobody in there 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.480 with me that I chose, except for Chow Choon. 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.119 A month after the wedding, Naomi got a message from 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.760 a reporter asking for comment on Gee's arrest. That's how 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:23.760 she found out about it. 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.000 I got this message asking to be interviewed because they 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:28.879 could see that I knew him really well based off 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:34.919 of Facebook, and I was just shocked and really confused. 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.520 I went on to Google and I just typed in 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:42.680 his name and then arrest and started reading article after 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.840 article after article that had been published about him, and 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:51.440 watching all the videos, and I honestly was so devastated. 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.160 She put those feelings into a long letter and sent 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.840 it to g while he was in jail awaiting trial. 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.919 And they did not have and read it because I 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.000 didn't write it on white paper, and so they sent 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.199 it back to me. And this was it was like 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.480 a ten page letter that I poured my heart out 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.560 to him in and I was so too straw I 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.800 didn't even rewrite it and resend it to him. 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:15.960 But she kept wondering how he was doing. 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.360 Every once in a while, I don't know, maybe every 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:23.600 other two or three months, I would go and google 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:24.080 his name. 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:29.679 And then six years later, still doing her googling, something 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:30.960 new finally pops up. 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.080 I saw that he had been released in a prisoner 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:39.040 exchange program. And it was really just a week later 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.840 that he messaged me saying hi, and that he knew 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.520 that I sent him a letter, but he never got 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:47.560 to see it because it wasn't on that white paper, 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.680 and thank you for writing me a letter, even though 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:52.880 I never got to read it. 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:55.720 He also told her a little bit about what he 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:56.119 was up to. 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:00.400 Let's see, I'll look at his messages right now. I'm 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.640 doing great. I'm in China now, just enjoying my time 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.080 with my family. Dot dot dot dot dot. Will go 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.639 to work in July, which we know where he's going 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.120 to be working at because we know who rescued him. 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:18.040 So I did ask. I did ask. I was like, 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.399 where are you going to be working at? Just to 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.240 see if I would get an answer, But there was 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:23.960 no response. 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:33.360 As for Sho we know even less. He didn't live 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.080 in the US, he didn't make friends here, and there's 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.239 really no way of knowing what happened to him when 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.840 he went back to China, but we can speculate. 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:43.520 I don't know. On the one hand, he was loyal, 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.520 you know, he could have come knocking on our door 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.560 and saying, hey, I'll tell you everything. I know. He didn't. 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.560 Former Federal Prosecutor Matt McKenzie. 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:57.280 But on the other hand, he was a catastrophic failure, 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:03.040 an epic epic failure for them. The amount of information 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:07.800 that we were able to gather about how China actually 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.359 operates is mind boggling. And it's all because he was 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.480 sloppy and greedy and we were able to catch him. 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.679 And now the whole world can see how they operate 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:20.399 because we put it all out in a trial. So 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:23.000 I think you have to put him in a back room, 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:26.879 give him a decent paying job, but don't trust him 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.640 with anything because you know he can't be trusted. He's 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:30.560 kind of incompetent. 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:40.280 No iPhones, Right, Yeah. 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:38.800 It's easy to laugh at she's carelessness and his mistakes. 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:41.880 But we all do stupid stuff, don't we. We all 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.920 cut corners. Most of the time we get away with it, 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:47.200 and most of the time she did too. 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:49.399 Spies or people and people are lazy. 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:55.200 It's absolutely a truth throughout all Espnach cases. And I've 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:56.720 got this little thing that I keep on me. 0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.440