1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 2: Hey everybody, this is the last episode of our show. 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 2: If you haven't listened to the first five, you probably 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 2: want to go back and start from the beginning. If 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 2: you are up to speed, thank you so much for listening. 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: We really hope you're enjoying it. We've had such a 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: blast working on this series. 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 3: That's actually true, and if you like the show, tell 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 3: your friends about it, share it. That's how the show 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 3: will continue to grow. And of course rating and reviewing 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 3: it helps too, So again, thanks. Here's the final act. 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 4: Let me just last Tree Engine. It might actually be 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 4: this one. I'm three nine when ye had two Communia 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 4: Tree Engine. 15 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 3: Just we have butterflies a little bit. 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is an empty number. 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 6: Valid. 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 3: Jordan and I are in Bloomberg's New York headquarters. It's late, 19 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 3: late enough that it's mid morning and Nanjing. We're here 20 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 3: because we're trying to call Shoe Yan June, and we're 21 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 3: with our producer and Amandarin speaking colleague to help us 22 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 3: with translation. 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 5: Is invalid. 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 3: We have a bunch of phone numbers we found in 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 3: the court documents for Shoe and all his aliases, as 26 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: well as a bunch of his associates. 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 4: Three eight eight, two threes one six. 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 3: We've been going down the list, making these calls and 29 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 3: getting nowhere for over an hour. 30 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: And then something funny happens with one of the shoe numbers. 31 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: Instead of getting a recording that says the line has 32 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: been disconnected, this number does something different. It rings a 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: few times and then nothing, almost as if someone's picked 34 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: up and is just sitting there without saying anything. It's 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: just blank space, silence. 36 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 5: H it's weird. 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 7: That was weird. 38 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, literally silence. 39 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's getting weird. 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 41 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: Then the call ins whoever's on the other end hangs up, 42 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: so we call again and the same thing happens. A 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: few rings, then nothing. There's twenty six seconds of silence, 44 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: and then finally our colleague stepts in and says, shoot, you. 45 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 8: Know what you want to s and juma uh ninshu 46 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 8: the thing that's dumas PM go downham. 47 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 9: Wow. 48 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 8: So we just a call number that associated with Shrian Jing. 49 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 8: Somebody picked up the phone and I asked him if 50 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 8: he's Shuan Jin. He said who are you? I repeated, 51 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 8: I'm looking for Shuan Jing, and uh he said again, 52 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 8: who are you then I said, I'm a reported from 53 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 8: Boomberg News. 54 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 5: He hang up on me. 55 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: What Wow, Well, I'll tell you what he didn't say 56 00:03:50,080 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: is I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, from Bloomberg New and 57 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: iHeart podcasts. This is the sixth Bureau. I'm Jordan Robertson. 58 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: And I'm Drake Bennett. I did not expect that at all. 59 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: I didn't either. I don't think any of us. I 60 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: don't think any of us. We don't know that that 61 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: was Shoe on the phone, but it was his number 62 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: and it sounded like him. We've heard Shoe's voice. You 63 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: have two plus Taking a call from an unknown US 64 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: number which was actually attached to a burner phone Bloomberg 65 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: gave us solely for the purpose of making these calls. 66 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: Seems a little like something he do. And our colleague 67 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: mentioned another thing. 68 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 8: He has a little bit of local accent. I assume 69 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 8: from jung Su area. 70 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,119 Speaker 2: Jung Su Province is where Shoes from. 71 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 8: He's a little bit guarded like. He didn't confirm, neither 72 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 8: deny or confirm who he is, just asked him, repeating 73 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 8: the question. 74 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 5: Why are you? 75 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: Of course, this wasn't the first time we tried to 76 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 2: reach him. Him two letters while he was incarcerated, and 77 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 2: he'd responded by telling his lawyers to tell us that 78 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 2: he didn't want to talk to us or ever hear 79 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 2: from us again. But by the time we called this 80 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: number from our offices, Shoe wasn't in an American prison anymore. 81 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: He wasn't even in America. We'll get back to that first, 82 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: we need to catch you up on the fall up 83 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: from his arrest, which profoundly shook the MSS. 84 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: One place we can trace the ripple effects of Shoe's 85 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: arrest is Chicago with G Chao Chun, the engineering grad 86 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 3: student who still texted his parents for grocery shopping tips. 87 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 5: That is good c cucumber available now. 88 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,679 Speaker 3: The boy spy who texted pictures of his MSS cash 89 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 3: to his friends. 90 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 10: Fucker, are you even there to photograph this? 91 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 11: Photographed this sneakily delete after you see it, And. 92 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 3: Who worked as a spotter for Shoe Yen June. 93 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 7: Are you there? 94 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 8: I have a favorite to ask. 95 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 7: I'm here. 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 12: Please go ahead, brother Shoe, which. 97 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 3: Is why an undercover FBI agent approached him on the 98 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 3: street in Chicago after she was arrested. Parker Wow, the 99 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 3: undercover told G that was she arrested. He was his 100 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: new MSS handler, and G believed him. The two of 101 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 3: them met three times in that same Hyatt hotel room. 102 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 3: Each time the FBI learned more about what G was doing, 103 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 3: until they decided they'd learned enough. On September twenty fifth, 104 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, G in the undercover's final meeting ended abruptly. 105 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 3: This is wrong. Two FBI agents, very much not undercover, 106 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 3: burst into the hotel room. That panic voice yelling wait wait, 107 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 3: that's actually the undercover, still in character as an MSS 108 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 3: handler getting busted as part of the plan. He's handcuffed 109 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 3: and led out of the room, and then the two 110 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: FBI agents turned to their real target. 111 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 11: What's here, Copeland chief? Yes, yes, okay, So you. 112 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: Want a lawyer, a mind tuble, Well, that's what we 113 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 3: want to talk about. Yeah, he was. He was arrested 114 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 3: and went on trial in the fall of twenty twenty two, 115 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: roughly a year after Shoe, and was convicted of acting 116 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: as an agent of a foreign government and making a 117 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: material false statement to the army. He was sentenced to 118 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: eight years in prison. 119 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: G wasn't the only one in this roundup. There were 120 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: other arrests and prosecutions of people connected to Shoe. A 121 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: Chinese hacker who worked with the sixth Bureau was apprehended 122 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: as he arrived in Los Angeles for a cybersecurity conference. 123 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 2: An engineer working for Apple's self driving car effort was 124 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: arrested in charged with theft of trade secrets. He was 125 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: one of the engineers Shoe and g had done a 126 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 2: background check on. Shoe's boss. Joh Wrong and other MSS 127 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: colleagues were indicted in absentia for a series of cyber 128 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: attacks on Aviation Company and Arthur Gow, the Honeywell engineer 129 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: who Shoes secretly recorded when he came to give a 130 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: talk in Nanjing. He was indicted too. He pled guilty 131 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: to export control violations and testified at Shoe's trial. 132 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: These cases were like tracers marking the outlines of networks 133 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: that had previously been hidden, but innocent people would also 134 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 3: get caught up in that hunt. A few weeks after 135 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 3: Sho's extradition in late twenty eighteen, then Attorney General Jeff 136 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 3: Sessions announced what he called the China Initiative, a Justice 137 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 3: Department campaign to counter trade secret theft. 138 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 13: We are here today to say enough is enough. We're 139 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 13: not going to take it any more. It's unacceptable. It's 140 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 13: time for China to join the Community of lawful Nations. 141 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 13: International trade has been good for China, but cheating must stop. 142 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 3: That led to a wave of aggressive, controversial prosecutions. Most 143 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 3: of the defendants were ethnically Chinese academics working at American 144 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 3: research institutions, and in most instances, there was no evidence 145 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 3: that anyone was actually sharing trade secrets. As a result, 146 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 3: many of the charges were for paperwork violations like failing 147 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: to report ties to Chinese universities. Some of the cases 148 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 3: were so weak that prosecutors would end up dropping the charges. 149 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: It all looked to a lot of people like ethnic profiling, 150 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: and the Biden administration would formally end the program. 151 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 14: We have heard concerns from the civil rights community that 152 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 14: the China Initiative has fueled the narrative of intolerance and bias. 153 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 7: To many. 154 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 14: That narrative suggests that the Justice Department treats people from 155 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 14: China or of Chinese descent differently. 156 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 13: The rise in anti Marria. 157 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: But as we know, Shoe was an actual spy and 158 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: when he was taken off the chessboard, it had ramifications. 159 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: Perhaps the most striking one was what stopped happening. Right 160 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 2: after Shoe's arrest, the FBI noticed that the MSS Industrial 161 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: Espionage Machine essentially shut down. 162 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 15: The arrest of ju scared them into stopping what they 163 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 15: were doing, essentially where they had to basically make it 164 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 15: this large countrywide operational pause to try and figure out 165 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 15: where or how you got caught. 166 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: Alan Kohler, the FBI's former head of counterintelligence. 167 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 15: They didn't want to put any other sources at risk, 168 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 15: They didn't want to put any more intelligence officers at risk, 169 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 15: so they just stopped to try and figure out what 170 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 15: was happening. And that was incredibly beneficial to us because 171 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 15: China wasn't luring Americans out of the US to meet 172 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 15: them overseas anymore. At the time, that was our biggest 173 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 15: unknown risk. We just didn't know how much and how 174 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 15: often this was happening, but we knew it stopped in 175 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 15: the aftermath of Hue. 176 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: From the US government's perspective, what was China doing in 177 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 2: those moments of pause, What actually happens? 178 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 15: They're probably doing exactly the same thing that we would 179 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 15: do whenever we experience a copper rise, right, And I 180 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 15: can tell you I've been in the room. When that's 181 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 15: happened a lot where let's say you have ten operations 182 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 15: that you launch throughout the US and overseas, and one 183 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 15: of them dramatically goes south, we would stop what we're 184 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 15: doing for fear of putting those other operations at risk. 185 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 15: Un Two, we figured out what the heck happened in 186 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 15: this one operation that blew up in our faces, and 187 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 15: China was absolutely doing that. They didn't know where the 188 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 15: hole was, and so that there therefore they had to 189 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 15: pause until they could try and figure it out. 190 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: Alan says. The MSS hit pause for roughly three years 191 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: as it struggled to pinpoint what exactly had gone wrong. 192 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: That's a really long time to shut down an intelligence effort. 193 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: And it stayed that way until Shoes trial. 194 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 15: The United States government had to show everything that they 195 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 15: did in the case, and China is able to understand, Okay, 196 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 15: here's our weak spots. Here is the person that lured 197 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 15: him to Belgium. We see how that happened. Okay, you 198 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 15: you shouldn't have recorded yourself and you shouldn't have put 199 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 15: all this personal information into the. 200 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 7: Ice that you took that the FBI got access to. 201 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: No to self, do not record secrets by stuff on 202 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: iPhone that you get arrested. 203 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 15: Withl This is where we know this case went sideways. 204 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 15: We're just not going to make those mistakes again. 205 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: So they learned from the trial too. China learns from 206 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: the trial as well. 207 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 15: Oh sure, and they may drag the process out to 208 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 15: find out exactly what the US government has, how they 209 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 15: got it, what the sourcing is, et cetera. And in 210 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 15: this U case, it was just that on steroids. 211 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: So the pause ended and the machine started back up. 212 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 15: You know, green light go back at them again. They learned, 213 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 15: they understood exactly what was happening, and they did what 214 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 15: we do, right. You get smart, you understand what the 215 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 15: adversaries are doing. You adapt, and you get better. 216 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: So, Jordan, you and I published a magazine feature about 217 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 3: Shoes case back in twenty twenty two for Bloomberg Business Week. 218 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, we did. 219 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 3: But even after the story came out, we couldn't stop thinking. 220 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 2: About it or talking about it or. 221 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 3: Reporting on it, and we kept finding more and more 222 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: great stuff like ga June's not in the print story 223 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 3: at all. 224 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: Right, I mean we learned about him after the fact. 225 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and Shoe's phone calls we had transcripts of the 226 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 3: recordings when we were at the print story, but it 227 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 3: wasn't until after that that we got the actual audio. 228 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 2: Which of course sparked the idea for this podcast. 229 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 3: Right. And while we were working on the pitch for 230 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 3: the pod, like late twenty twenty four, you got a tip. 231 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was quite a tip. So I get a 232 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: call one day kind of late November from a source 233 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 2: who suggested that I look at the Bureau of Prisons 234 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: website and they said you should look up shoe Yen 235 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: June there. And like so many of these calls, it 236 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: was like unnecessarily crypto. I'm like, what am I gonna 237 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: what am I gonna see? This man got sentenced to 238 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: twenty years, Like I don't need to see it again. 239 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: I know what happened. And so I go and look 240 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 2: and like he's gone. Shoe Ya June was not there. 241 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: He was not in the system. And at first I 242 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: was like, did shee escape? Did he break out of prison? 243 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 3: It wouldn't be the first time he tried that. 244 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I thought, maybe this time he'd actually succeeded. 245 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: So I called the source back and the person was like, no, 246 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 2: he didn't escape. He's been swapped. 247 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 3: Shu Yen June had been swapped, pardoned by President Biden, 248 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 3: released from prison, and sent back to China. So Hadji 249 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 3: Chau Chun and a third Chinese man convicted on unrelated charges. 250 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 3: In exchange, three American citizens in Chinese prisons had been 251 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: released and sent home to the US. 252 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: It was a prisoner swap, and it's how real life 253 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: spy stories often end. 254 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 7: It was bound to happen. It's part of the deal making. 255 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: Federal Prosecutor Tim Mangan. 256 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 15: Even if we hadn't gotten a chance to indict him 257 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 15: and we just caught a spy, this is what happened 258 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 15: with spies. 259 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 16: I don't think anyone on our team was shocked. 260 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: Federal prosecut Emily Gruttfield. 261 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 16: You're always surprised to hear it at that moment, but 262 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 16: it wasn't a shock that overall to think that this 263 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 16: was something that might occur. Because he was such a 264 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 16: valuable asset to the Chinese government. 265 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 15: I always thought it was inevitable that he was going 266 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 15: to be traded, and its just a matter of when 267 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 15: Alan kohlergan. What the case team did is they gave 268 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 15: the United States a chip that we could play in 269 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 15: the world stage. We put you in jail, we arrested 270 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 15: his network, We learned a whole lot about how China 271 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 15: targets Americans. We were able to tell the world how 272 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 15: it happens. And then we actually had this intelligence officer 273 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 15: in prison that we gave our president the opportunity to 274 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 15: bargain with someone inside China to get Americans back. And 275 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 15: to me, that's worth letting him out of jail every time. 276 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 3: But not everyone feels that way, even other spies. 277 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 10: I was disappointed. No, I was more than disappointed. I 278 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 10: was angry. 279 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: James Olsen, former CIA clandestine officer Encounterintelligence chief. 280 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 10: By releasing Hu and his co op d G, I 281 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 10: felt that much of their work was for naught by 282 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 10: letting him go free. This trial, all that hard work, 283 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 10: this brilliant operation that Bradley Hope pulled off, had no 284 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 10: lasting impact. 285 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 3: And some people aren't sure exactly what to think. 286 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 17: Yeah, I was unhappy with that. 287 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: Art Cummings, former head of security at GEED. 288 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 17: He was very unhappy with that. 289 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: Why is that? 290 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 17: I just think it sets the wrong message again, you know, 291 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 17: But again I'm contradicting myself a little bit because he 292 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 17: was actually a representative of their government. So I don't 293 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 17: like the fact that it was kind of a paper 294 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 17: tiger moment. Yeah, he made all that effort and now 295 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 17: bye bye, he's back. Kind of like wow, really, But 296 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 17: at the same time, as a loyal Chinese citizen, I 297 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 17: mean yeah, I always draw the equivalents. The CIA officer 298 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 17: is lord to Europe and then extradited to a country 299 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 17: and then put in prison, we would be out of 300 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 17: our minds. 301 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: Art saying if the situation was reversed, we would do 302 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 3: everything we could to get that CIA officer back. And 303 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: that's basically what China says they did. In a press 304 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 3: conference at the time right after the swap, a spokesperson 305 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs made their message clear. 306 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 3: Through the unremitting efforts of the Chinese government, three Chinese 307 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 3: citizens wrongfully detained by the US have returned safely to China. 308 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 3: It once again shows that never ever will China give 309 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 3: up on its citizens. The motherland will always have their back. 310 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 2: So once you're back in the motherland, what does that 311 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: actually look like. Well, when it comes to g we 312 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: know a little. He had a life in the US, 313 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 2: he made personal connections, and he hasn't totally abandoned them. 314 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: They just told me about how he was quote unquote 315 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: rescued from the China US prisoner swap. 316 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: Naomi Lyman met Ji chow Chun in Chicago when he 317 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. 318 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: This isn't something he seems to have discussed much with 319 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: either his real or fake MSS handlers, but it became 320 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: a very important part of his American life, and so 321 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 2: is Naomi. 322 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: I only ever saw him being gentle and kind. He 323 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: would sit next to people on the train who just 324 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: looked lonely, and he would just talk to them, just 325 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: in a loving way, just how's your day going, where 326 00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: are you headed to? 327 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 2: They were really close friends. G was at Naomi's wedding 328 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 2: and was the only person she invited into the Mormon 329 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: temple for the ceremony. 330 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: My best friends weren't there. I had nobody in there 331 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: with me that I chose, except for Chow Choon. 332 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 2: A month after the wedding, Naomi got a message from 333 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: a reporter asking for comment on Gee's arrest. That's how 334 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: she found out about it. 335 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: I got this message asking to be interviewed because they 336 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: could see that I knew him really well based off 337 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: of Facebook, and I was just shocked and really confused. 338 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: I went on to Google and I just typed in 339 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: his name and then arrest and started reading article after 340 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: article after article that had been published about him, and 341 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: watching all the videos, and I honestly was so devastated. 342 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 2: She put those feelings into a long letter and sent 343 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: it to g while he was in jail awaiting trial. 344 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: And they did not have and read it because I 345 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: didn't write it on white paper, and so they sent 346 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: it back to me. And this was it was like 347 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: a ten page letter that I poured my heart out 348 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: to him in and I was so too straw I 349 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: didn't even rewrite it and resend it to him. 350 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: But she kept wondering how he was doing. 351 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: Every once in a while, I don't know, maybe every 352 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: other two or three months, I would go and google 353 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: his name. 354 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 2: And then six years later, still doing her googling, something 355 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: new finally pops up. 356 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: I saw that he had been released in a prisoner 357 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: exchange program. And it was really just a week later 358 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: that he messaged me saying hi, and that he knew 359 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: that I sent him a letter, but he never got 360 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: to see it because it wasn't on that white paper, 361 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: and thank you for writing me a letter, even though 362 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: I never got to read it. 363 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: He also told her a little bit about what he 364 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 2: was up to. 365 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: Let's see, I'll look at his messages right now. I'm 366 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: doing great. I'm in China now, just enjoying my time 367 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: with my family. Dot dot dot dot dot. Will go 368 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: to work in July, which we know where he's going 369 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: to be working at because we know who rescued him. 370 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: So I did ask. I did ask. I was like, 371 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: where are you going to be working at? Just to 372 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: see if I would get an answer, But there was 373 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: no response. 374 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 3: As for Sho we know even less. He didn't live 375 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 3: in the US, he didn't make friends here, and there's 376 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 3: really no way of knowing what happened to him when 377 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: he went back to China, but we can speculate. 378 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 9: I don't know. On the one hand, he was loyal, 379 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 9: you know, he could have come knocking on our door 380 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 9: and saying, hey, I'll tell you everything. I know. He didn't. 381 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 3: Former Federal Prosecutor Matt McKenzie. 382 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 9: But on the other hand, he was a catastrophic failure, 383 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 9: an epic epic failure for them. The amount of information 384 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 9: that we were able to gather about how China actually 385 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 9: operates is mind boggling. And it's all because he was 386 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 9: sloppy and greedy and we were able to catch him. 387 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 9: And now the whole world can see how they operate 388 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 9: because we put it all out in a trial. So 389 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 9: I think you have to put him in a back room, 390 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 9: give him a decent paying job, but don't trust him 391 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 9: with anything because you know he can't be trusted. He's 392 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 9: kind of incompetent. 393 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: No iPhones, Right, Yeah. 394 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 3: It's easy to laugh at she's carelessness and his mistakes. 395 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 3: But we all do stupid stuff, don't we. We all 396 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 3: cut corners. Most of the time we get away with it, 397 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 3: and most of the time she did too. 398 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 7: Spies or people and people are lazy. 399 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 15: It's absolutely a truth throughout all Espnach cases. And I've 400 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 15: got this little thing that I keep on me. 401 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: At this point and I interview with Alan, he pulls 402 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 3: out a piece of paper. 403 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 7: I don't know if you're a George Smiley fan. 404 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 3: It's a quote from Smiley's People, a John Lecarrey novel 405 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 3: that's part of the same trilogy as Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy. 406 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 3: Alan keeps this quote with him, the way someone else 407 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 3: might keep a scrap of scripture or a pocket constitution. 408 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 7: For the longest time. 409 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 15: I would have a copy of the book which is 410 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 15: behind me on my shelf, dog eared. And I was 411 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 15: just in a Marriott at one point, and I took 412 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 15: a piece of Marriott stationary and I wrote this quote down. 413 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 15: This is the kind of a kind of intelligence geek 414 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 15: that I am. 415 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: He keeps it close as a kind of reminder, a warning. 416 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 7: So this is a quote from Smiley's people. 417 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 15: It's referring about a truth throughout all sponache cases. 418 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 7: Is it okay if I just share this part with you? Yeah? Absolutely. 419 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 15: He knew that sometimes old spies, even the best of them, 420 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 15: were little like old lovers. 421 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 11: So the time twenty new peach as. 422 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 15: Age crypt up on them, they began to cheat out 423 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 15: of fear that their power were deserting them. 424 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 11: Tech goal, maybe you can't head back first, Thank you 425 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 11: so much. 426 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 15: They pretended they had it all in the memory, but 427 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 15: in secret they were hanging on to their virility. In 428 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 15: secret they wrote it down, often in some homemade code, which, 429 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 15: if they had only known it, could be unbuttoned in 430 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 15: hours or minutes by anyone who knew the game. 431 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 11: June twenty second through to Paris. 432 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 15: Names and addresses of contacts subagents. 433 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 11: June eleventh, met g Chiltring. 434 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 15: Nothing was holy. Routines, times and places of meetings. 435 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 11: Let's try our best to meeting in Europe. 436 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 7: Work names, phone numbers. 437 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 11: John rejected meal receipt. Today, I will have my revenge. 438 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 15: Even safe combinations written out as social security numbers and birthdays. 439 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 11: Send me the name of the coffee shop we're here. 440 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 15: In his time, Smiley had seen entire networks put at 441 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 15: risk that way because one agent no longer dared to 442 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 15: trust his head. 443 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 8: And put a USB drive in the eye glass box 444 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 8: in the middle of the bookcase. 445 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 11: Happens, someone will come to you and tell you the password. 446 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 15: And to me, that is exactly what espionage is. If 447 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 15: people execute flawless tradecraft, they will never be caught, but 448 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 15: because they're people, they will always be caught. 449 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 11: Your honor, I'm just an ordinary Chinese citizen who knows 450 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 11: nothing about politics, nor do I know anything about secrets. 451 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 11: I stand by my innocence. Thank you. 452 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 2: China is still behind the US when it comes to 453 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 2: aviation technology. Ge'z jet engine is still the most advanced 454 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: out there. China's engines are five or ten or fifteen 455 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: years behind, but they're probably not going to stay there. 456 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: I mean there used to be similar gaps in other sectors, 457 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: like electric vehicles, but not anymore. 458 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, so twenty years ago things were very different for China. 459 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: This is Juliana Lu, a global business column for Bloomberg Opinion. 460 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: She's been covering China for over two decades. 461 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 6: Twenty years ago, nobody expected Chinese evs to be the 462 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 6: world beatles that they are today. I think it was 463 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 6: even that long ago when Elon Musk was laughing and. 464 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 4: As you're familiar with BYD the ramping up production of 465 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 4: their electric vehicles. 466 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 2: Warren Buffet owned ten percent stake in that. 467 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 10: Why do you laugh. 468 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: Trying to compete? 469 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 10: Why do you last? 470 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 7: Have you seen their car? 471 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 6: I have been like literally laughing at BYD during a 472 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 6: Bloomberg TV interview. 473 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 4: Tell me why you're laughing. 474 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: You don't see them at all as a competitives. 475 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 10: Why is that? 476 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 3: I mean they offer a lower price point. I don't 477 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 3: think they have a great product. 478 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 2: Elon Musk may have considered the Chinese electric car maker 479 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: BYD something to laugh about. Back in twenty eleven when 480 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: he gave that interview. But BYD is now one of 481 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: the fastest growing car companies in history and ranks among 482 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 2: the biggest automakers in the world. They're not a joke. 483 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: They're a threat, which is why the US government has 484 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: made it basically impossible to sell them in the US. 485 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: The Biden administration slapped a one hundred percent tariff on 486 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: Chinese evs, so most Americans have never even seen one 487 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: in person. 488 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I haven't, and I have. 489 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: But that's because I live in London, where there are 490 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: plenty of byds driving around. China is getting so good 491 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: at so many things quickly, evs, AI drones that they're 492 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: starting to have their own fears that their tech will 493 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 2: get poached. 494 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 6: In the case of BYD, it had kind of long 495 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 6: expressed a desire to open up a factory in Mexico, 496 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 6: and about a year ago the reports that that permission 497 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 6: was being delayed by the Chinese side because Beijing was 498 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 6: concerned that this technology would be kind of diffused out 499 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 6: of Mexico and into the US into the so called 500 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 6: wrong hands. 501 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 2: Recently, the Chinese government has started taking steps to guard 502 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 2: intellectual property in other realms like AI The government now 503 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: discourages top Chinese AI researchers from traveling abroad, warning that 504 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: they might potentially be targeted in some way. It's also 505 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 2: recently launched an investigation into a deal between Meta and 506 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: the Chinese founded AI firm Mannas for potentially putting Chinese 507 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: tech secrets at risk, maybe for. 508 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 6: The first time in kind of modern history. The shoes 509 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 6: on the other foot, it's not a very comfortable position 510 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 6: to be in, but at least US officials are being 511 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 6: pretty honest with you about how they see the current situation. 512 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 18: Good morning Today, the Select Committee on China meets to 513 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 18: examine the rise of China's auto industry and what it 514 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 18: means for America's economy and national security. 515 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 19: The release of Deepseek AI from a Chinese company should 516 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 19: be a wake up call for our industries that we 517 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 19: need to be laser focused on competing. 518 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 18: In just five years, China has gone from a minor 519 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 18: exporter to the world's largest auto exporter at below market 520 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 18: prices that US and allied automakers cannot match. 521 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 12: They've already exceeded our military capabilities. They have more planes, 522 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 12: more ships, more summaries, more bistles, more bombs, more soldiers. 523 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 7: They have the ability to build. 524 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 12: Ships two hundred and thirty times faster than we do. 525 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 12: They have an air force that out numbers ores. Previously 526 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 12: was a technological gap that we're able to depend on. 527 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 12: That technology gap has evaporated, and. 528 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 6: I would imagine the rationale is not that different from 529 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 6: the Chinese side, right, the rationale that kind of supported 530 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 6: the kinds of acts that you're reporting about. It's a mirror, right, 531 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 6: places a mirror to what China has allegedly been doing 532 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 6: and what the West may be willing to do. 533 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: But what is the West willing to do? Everyone we 534 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 3: interviewed for this series has insisted over and over again 535 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 3: that we don't do what China does. The US government 536 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 3: does not steal trade secrets. Companies might spy on other companies, 537 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: but our intelligence services do not spy on foreign firms 538 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 3: to steal their tech. 539 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 9: Governments spy on other governments. Our governments should not be 540 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 9: stealing using the state apparatus to steal trade secrets for 541 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 9: commercial purposes. And it's just it's outside the boundaries. Can 542 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 9: I just ask why? It's kind of like Omar in 543 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 9: the wire, you know, you got to have a code. 544 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 12: Or trifling basically kill it every day working man and 545 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 12: all I mean, don't get a twisted. 546 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 14: I do some dirt too, but I ain't never put 547 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 14: on nobody who wasn't in the game. 548 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 5: A man must have a code, no no. 549 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 9: Doubt, and the code is we don't steal trade secrets 550 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 9: for commercial purposes. We're here to spy on each other 551 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 9: for the needs of our state. Everyone has our state 552 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 9: purposes that we're going to be conducting espionage. But there 553 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 9: are certain lines we don't cross them. You don't see 554 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 9: the NSA out there stealing secrets to help coke or PEPSI. 555 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 9: It's just not how we do things. And the Chinese 556 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 9: just blur all those lines. 557 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 10: We need to see. I do not do industrial espionage. 558 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 10: We do not steal foreign technologies. That's not our job. 559 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 10: We don't do that. So that is a major distinction. 560 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 10: In fact, many, many foreign intelligence services trend in full alike, 561 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 10: do have that responsibility of acquiring technology that they cannot 562 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 10: get in any other way. But no, we don't do. 563 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 2: That, at least not since we became the world's dominant superpower. 564 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: But if that changed, would we what lines would we blur? Well, 565 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: we're already blurring plenty of them. The government is taking 566 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: ownership stakes in different companies, inserting itself into the private 567 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: sector in ways it hasn't before. 568 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 7: The leader of. 569 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: Venezuela was taken from his capital city and is not 570 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: sitting in a Brooklyn prison. FBI and DOJ are being 571 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: used to investigate the president's perceived political enemies. So, honestly, 572 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 2: what's so precious about trade secrets? Why wouldn't the US 573 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: start sending out spies to try to steal them, especially 574 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: if it had a new motive to catch up. 575 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 3: And let's not forget the US has done it before. 576 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 3: Earlier in the series, we mentioned how the United States, 577 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 3: back when it was a very young nation, paid people 578 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 3: to smuggle loom designs out of Great Britain, the global 579 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 3: industrial power of that age. The question is would we 580 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 3: do something like that again today? We wanted to ask 581 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 3: our espionage expert, James Olsen, who spent three decades in 582 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 3: the CIA, the one who took the stand against you, 583 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 3: who was crushed by the news of the swap, who 584 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 3: you just heard say. 585 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 10: Weed, CI do not do industrial espionage. 586 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 3: We wanted to know what James thought about this, about 587 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 3: whether the US is official approach it's code if you 588 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 3: will could change. The last thing I want asking is 589 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 3: just whether this insistence on our spying being sort of 590 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 3: defensive rather than offensive is a luxury of the fact 591 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 3: that we're the sort of preeminence of a power in 592 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 3: the world. Do you think there's any evidence or likelihood 593 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 3: that if the United States were to lose that position, 594 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 3: whether there's any possibility we'd change that stance, whether we 595 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 3: would resort to more offensive spying in the way that 596 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 3: China and other countries do. 597 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 10: I think conceivable that if the United States lost its 598 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 10: premi andive position in the world, that we would be 599 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 10: more offensive in our intelligence efforts to strengthen ourselves at 600 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 10: the expense of our adversaries, rather than the primarily defensive 601 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 10: mode that I think we're in now. That's conceivable to me. 602 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 10: I hope that day never comes. 603 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 2: A huge thanks to everyone who made this possible, our 604 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 2: production team, editors, engineers, composers, translators, voice actors, voice coaches, 605 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 2: fact checkers, the many people we interviewed on and off 606 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: the record, and everyone at Bloomberg and beyond who contributed 607 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 2: to and supported this project with their advice, suggestions, and 608 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 2: time and again. 609 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 3: Please share rate, and review our show if you liked it. 610 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 3: If you're still listening, then you should also check out 611 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 3: our homepage, where we have two print pieces and a 612 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 3: video documentary that we made about the boy spy gchat 613 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 3: Chune that's at Bloomberg dot com Forward Slash the sixth Bureau. 614 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening, Bye 615 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 13: Spott