1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin, he's giving us the thumbsut. Okay, So, as usual, 2 00:00:23,756 --> 00:00:26,516 Speaker 1: we just have you start by introducing yourself. 3 00:00:28,076 --> 00:00:29,236 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Dan Gilbert. 4 00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:30,636 Speaker 3: For the opening of. 5 00:00:30,556 --> 00:00:33,036 Speaker 1: This new season, I'm really rolling out the big guns. 6 00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:36,716 Speaker 1: Dan Gilbert is a huge figure in happiness science. He's 7 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:39,956 Speaker 1: one of the field's most respected psychologists and an absolute 8 00:00:39,956 --> 00:00:42,636 Speaker 1: whiz at explaining some of the most puzzling aspects of 9 00:00:42,676 --> 00:00:44,996 Speaker 1: human nature. And that is going to be a big 10 00:00:44,996 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 1: help today because the question I have for him is 11 00:00:47,756 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 1: as confounding as it is serious. This episode is all 12 00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:53,796 Speaker 1: about the puzzle of why we're not doing more for 13 00:00:53,956 --> 00:00:56,716 Speaker 1: things that are really hurting us potentially badly. 14 00:00:56,956 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 2: That sounds great. 15 00:00:58,676 --> 00:01:01,236 Speaker 1: Every January, the Happiness Lab puts out a New Year, 16 00:01:01,356 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: New You type season. We explore the personal challenges that 17 00:01:04,756 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: so many of us face and the ways we can 18 00:01:07,076 --> 00:01:09,196 Speaker 1: understand them better to make a fresh start. 19 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:09,716 Speaker 2: The year ahead. 20 00:01:11,516 --> 00:01:14,956 Speaker 1: But this year we're doing something slightly different. This season 21 00:01:15,036 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: is going to focus on a topic that makes a 22 00:01:17,036 --> 00:01:21,116 Speaker 1: lot of us feel scared, angry, and vulnerable. That topic 23 00:01:21,436 --> 00:01:26,556 Speaker 1: is climate change. The federal government says this fire season 24 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 1: is unpressed serious. 25 00:01:27,636 --> 00:01:29,676 Speaker 2: Fire seasons in the past, but this one just makes 26 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:30,876 Speaker 2: seeds our a sort of experience. 27 00:01:30,916 --> 00:01:32,676 Speaker 1: Twenty twenty three at shattered records. 28 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:36,396 Speaker 2: Dangerous fast moving towards are leaving some eight million people 29 00:01:36,436 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 2: in the region under flood. 30 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:40,676 Speaker 3: A looks in the Midwest is abnormally dry, so. 31 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:42,236 Speaker 2: Your prayer and hope for the best. 32 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:44,996 Speaker 3: The future could be even bleaker. 33 00:01:45,196 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 2: Is a point relieve off the charts. 34 00:01:47,916 --> 00:01:50,316 Speaker 1: Twenty twenty three was pretty much the hottest year in 35 00:01:50,356 --> 00:01:53,996 Speaker 1: recorded history, but it wasn't just heat waves. Over the 36 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:57,156 Speaker 1: last twelve months, we saw a host of disasters related 37 00:01:57,156 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 1: to global heating, raging forest fires, devastating floods, and retreated ice. 38 00:02:02,876 --> 00:02:06,876 Speaker 1: These depressing facts usually make us feel pretty terrible. We 39 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:09,556 Speaker 1: feel anxious for our futures and for those of our children. 40 00:02:10,076 --> 00:02:12,716 Speaker 1: We get angry with ourselves and others for letting things 41 00:02:12,716 --> 00:02:16,076 Speaker 1: get this bad, and we feel overwhelmed and pretty helpless 42 00:02:16,156 --> 00:02:18,876 Speaker 1: in the face of such a big challenge. And these 43 00:02:18,916 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 1: negative emotions compel many of us to turn away from 44 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 1: the problem. We spend most of our days acting like 45 00:02:24,836 --> 00:02:27,996 Speaker 1: the whole global heating thing just a isn't happening. We 46 00:02:28,076 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 1: go into denial mode and try to just carry on 47 00:02:30,676 --> 00:02:34,036 Speaker 1: with our lives. But the science shows that negative emotions 48 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 1: often hurt us more when we try to pretend that 49 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:39,716 Speaker 1: they're not there. And all this collective avoidance isn't that 50 00:02:39,756 --> 00:02:42,636 Speaker 1: great for the climate crisis either. So over the next 51 00:02:42,636 --> 00:02:44,636 Speaker 1: few shows, we're going to look at ways we can 52 00:02:44,636 --> 00:02:48,796 Speaker 1: confront the climate challenge more calmly and confidently. We'll see 53 00:02:48,796 --> 00:02:50,956 Speaker 1: that dealing with the crisis head on and doing our 54 00:02:50,996 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 1: bit to help can make us feel happier than we expect. 55 00:02:54,196 --> 00:02:57,316 Speaker 1: We'll also learn ways to navigate our negative emotions and 56 00:02:57,396 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 1: to experience a bit of optimism even in the face 57 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:04,036 Speaker 1: of such a scary situation. But in this first episode, 58 00:03:04,116 --> 00:03:07,436 Speaker 1: I wanted Dan to help me answer a vexing psychological question. 59 00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:11,356 Speaker 1: We've been talking about the catastrophic dangers of global warming 60 00:03:11,436 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 1: for several decades, but people are still debating whether it's 61 00:03:14,756 --> 00:03:17,556 Speaker 1: a real crisis and how urgently we need to act 62 00:03:17,636 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 1: to fix it, Which is kind of weird because it 63 00:03:20,196 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 1: seems like humans should be pretty good at dealing with 64 00:03:22,716 --> 00:03:26,396 Speaker 1: life threatening situations. I mean, we've had millions of years 65 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:30,676 Speaker 1: of evolution. Our brains should be amazing threat detectors. They 66 00:03:30,676 --> 00:03:32,956 Speaker 1: should be really good at noting when we're in danger 67 00:03:33,116 --> 00:03:35,996 Speaker 1: and taking action. Why then, do so many of us 68 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 1: seem to be ignoring a threat big enough to wipe 69 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:42,236 Speaker 1: out our entire planet. The answer comes from the fact 70 00:03:42,236 --> 00:03:44,636 Speaker 1: that our brains are built to deal with only certain 71 00:03:44,716 --> 00:03:47,876 Speaker 1: kinds of threats. If a saber tooth tiger jumps out 72 00:03:47,876 --> 00:03:50,356 Speaker 1: at you from the bush, you'll address that threat as 73 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 1: best you can right away. But if your doctor tells 74 00:03:53,476 --> 00:03:55,476 Speaker 1: you that you better change your diet or flash your 75 00:03:55,516 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 1: teeth to reduce the risk of health problems developing decades 76 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:01,476 Speaker 1: from now, you might dither. It's why we're bad at 77 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:04,236 Speaker 1: putting money into our four oh one ks, and why 78 00:04:04,276 --> 00:04:06,676 Speaker 1: we sometimes don't put in the work to make happiness 79 00:04:06,676 --> 00:04:09,916 Speaker 1: practices a part of our daily lives. We're great at 80 00:04:09,956 --> 00:04:12,996 Speaker 1: addressing the urgent problems, but we're not so hot when 81 00:04:12,996 --> 00:04:16,196 Speaker 1: it comes to tackling other important ones. And when those 82 00:04:16,236 --> 00:04:19,436 Speaker 1: important things do become urgent and messy, we wind up 83 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:23,956 Speaker 1: kicking ourselves for not acting sooner. Harvard professor Dan Gilbert 84 00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:27,036 Speaker 1: has been thinking deeply about this mind bias for decades. 85 00:04:27,836 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 1: He wondered why governments seemed to be so bad at 86 00:04:30,156 --> 00:04:33,476 Speaker 1: coordinating a response to climate change, even though they're really 87 00:04:33,516 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 1: good at urgent action. Following events like terrorist attacks. 88 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:41,276 Speaker 2: You know, everybody in America had a reaction to nine 89 00:04:41,316 --> 00:04:44,156 Speaker 2: to eleven, and all of us had the reaction this 90 00:04:44,276 --> 00:04:46,916 Speaker 2: is terrible, and thousands of people have died. But because 91 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:50,236 Speaker 2: I'm a psychologist, I also had another reaction, which is, 92 00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:56,636 Speaker 2: why are we not equally concerned about all things that 93 00:04:56,676 --> 00:05:01,036 Speaker 2: have killed even more people in our country? Ranging from 94 00:05:01,356 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 2: climate change to the flu. Many more people have died, 95 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:08,756 Speaker 2: So why are we so concerned about one thing and 96 00:05:08,796 --> 00:05:13,396 Speaker 2: will to sacrifice everything from resources to personal liberty to 97 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:16,956 Speaker 2: fight it, But these other threats that are even greater 98 00:05:17,076 --> 00:05:20,716 Speaker 2: in magnitude, arguably we're willing to do nothing about. That 99 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:24,396 Speaker 2: seemed to me a curious question that was ripe for 100 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:26,076 Speaker 2: a psychological answer. 101 00:05:26,036 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 1: And you really applied that question directly to climate change too. 102 00:05:28,956 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 1: You'd think that if we knew the real threat, which 103 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 1: a lot of people say that they do, we'd be 104 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:36,156 Speaker 1: freaked out and we'd be acting. But we're kind of not. 105 00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:39,436 Speaker 1: And so talk to me a little bit why evolutionarily 106 00:05:39,476 --> 00:05:40,436 Speaker 1: this might be the case. 107 00:05:40,996 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 2: Well, you know, several hundred years ago, two very smart 108 00:05:43,996 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 2: guys named Pascal and Vermont told us how we ought 109 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:50,516 Speaker 2: to think about threats. We ought to think about their likelihood, 110 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:53,316 Speaker 2: and we ought to think about their magnitude. And those 111 00:05:53,396 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 2: two things tell us whether a threat really warrants our attention, 112 00:05:57,556 --> 00:05:59,556 Speaker 2: if it's really likely to happen and it's going to 113 00:05:59,556 --> 00:06:02,236 Speaker 2: be a very very bad outcome if it does take action. 114 00:06:02,556 --> 00:06:05,076 Speaker 2: If not, then don't. That's all logical, but it's not 115 00:06:05,196 --> 00:06:09,836 Speaker 2: very psychological because human beings were not evolved to compute 116 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:13,836 Speaker 2: expected utility, if you will. Rather were evolved to respond 117 00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 2: to a small set of threats that were really big 118 00:06:17,556 --> 00:06:21,756 Speaker 2: problems for our ancestors living in the African savannah. And unfortunately, 119 00:06:22,196 --> 00:06:26,396 Speaker 2: climate change has none of the features that trigger this 120 00:06:26,636 --> 00:06:28,956 Speaker 2: threat response system in the human brain. 121 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:31,396 Speaker 1: And so let's talk about some of those four features. 122 00:06:31,436 --> 00:06:33,476 Speaker 1: The first one that you've talked about is that threats 123 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:37,556 Speaker 1: have to be kind of agentive, they have to involve individuals. 124 00:06:37,836 --> 00:06:40,076 Speaker 1: Why do we really care about threats that come from people? 125 00:06:40,276 --> 00:06:42,636 Speaker 2: Well, we care about everything that comes from people, and 126 00:06:42,676 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 2: for good reason. People are the most significant source of 127 00:06:46,796 --> 00:06:49,716 Speaker 2: rewards and punishments for an animal like us. We're the 128 00:06:49,716 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 2: most social animal on the planet Earth. So it's no 129 00:06:54,316 --> 00:06:56,796 Speaker 2: wonder and it's for good reason that we care a 130 00:06:56,836 --> 00:06:59,436 Speaker 2: lot about what other people do, what other people think 131 00:06:59,476 --> 00:07:03,076 Speaker 2: and what other people say. With that said, climate change 132 00:07:03,156 --> 00:07:06,156 Speaker 2: is not an attack by a mean group of people 133 00:07:06,196 --> 00:07:09,516 Speaker 2: who are running at us with sticks, and that's what 134 00:07:09,556 --> 00:07:12,916 Speaker 2: we're evolved to respond to. I mean, look what happened 135 00:07:13,196 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 2: when the twin Towers came down and we went and 136 00:07:15,996 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 2: invaded a country because they had murdered three thousand people. 137 00:07:18,916 --> 00:07:21,276 Speaker 2: If those three thousand people had died from the flu, 138 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:23,716 Speaker 2: and by the way, it's ten times that who die 139 00:07:23,716 --> 00:07:26,676 Speaker 2: from the flu every year, we just kind of hum 140 00:07:26,756 --> 00:07:29,156 Speaker 2: along and don't worry too much about it. So that's 141 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 2: the tragedy of climate change is that it doesn't have 142 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:34,036 Speaker 2: a face. It seems like a non agentic threat. 143 00:07:34,116 --> 00:07:35,676 Speaker 3: It also seems to not have an intent. 144 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:37,876 Speaker 1: You made this quip in one of your articles that 145 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:41,036 Speaker 1: if climate change was trying to kill us, then we'd 146 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:43,316 Speaker 1: take it very seriously. You know, talk about the power 147 00:07:43,356 --> 00:07:45,636 Speaker 1: of intent and why that matters for our psychology. 148 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:48,756 Speaker 2: Well, we all know that if somebody pushes you in 149 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:51,276 Speaker 2: the street and goes, oh, excuse me, I tripped, you're 150 00:07:51,316 --> 00:07:54,116 Speaker 2: not alarmed at all. But if they say, hey take that, 151 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:57,276 Speaker 2: suddenly you rise up with full force, you call the police, 152 00:07:57,316 --> 00:08:00,036 Speaker 2: you hit them back you start yelling. So whether people 153 00:08:00,076 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 2: intend to harm us or not is almost more important 154 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:06,076 Speaker 2: than the harm they inflict. We'll forgive almost anything that's 155 00:08:06,116 --> 00:08:09,636 Speaker 2: an accident, and we will prosecute almost anything that isn't. 156 00:08:09,876 --> 00:08:14,436 Speaker 2: Climate change isn't. Nobody's actually trying to make the climate warmer, 157 00:08:14,596 --> 00:08:17,956 Speaker 2: nobody's trying to melt the polarized caps. People are doing 158 00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 2: it as a result of their activity, but it's pretty 159 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:23,236 Speaker 2: incidental to the activities that they're performing, you know, in 160 00:08:23,276 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 2: a way. That's too bad. We can't get too excited 161 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:30,836 Speaker 2: about it because there's nobody who's meaning ill behind it. 162 00:08:31,036 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 1: And I love when our psychology gets really tripped up 163 00:08:33,236 --> 00:08:36,196 Speaker 1: by this. I remember one study where you had neuroscientists 164 00:08:36,196 --> 00:08:38,316 Speaker 1: putting people in a scanner and these people were getting 165 00:08:38,316 --> 00:08:40,836 Speaker 1: the subjects were getting shocked, and the shocks varied whether 166 00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:43,796 Speaker 1: they were just kind of random accidental shocks that were happening, 167 00:08:44,076 --> 00:08:46,676 Speaker 1: or there was somebody sitting behind the thing who intended 168 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:48,916 Speaker 1: to shock you. And if you look at pain regions 169 00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 1: in the rain, we actually feel more pain when we're 170 00:08:51,756 --> 00:08:54,516 Speaker 1: getting shocks that are intended when somebody's trying to give 171 00:08:54,516 --> 00:08:56,676 Speaker 1: them to us. And I think that's so powerful when 172 00:08:56,676 --> 00:08:58,996 Speaker 1: we think about climate change, because the fact that nobody's 173 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:01,196 Speaker 1: trying to do it makes it just kind of like 174 00:09:01,236 --> 00:09:03,956 Speaker 1: water off a duct's back when we think about it psychologically. 175 00:09:04,116 --> 00:09:06,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little less shocking, isn't. 176 00:09:06,396 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 1: It Exactly The next kind of thing you've talked about 177 00:09:09,196 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 1: the fact that our brains tend to respond a lot 178 00:09:11,516 --> 00:09:14,196 Speaker 1: to threats that are immoral. And this one's kind of 179 00:09:14,196 --> 00:09:16,156 Speaker 1: interesting because you know, in some ways you could think that, 180 00:09:16,196 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 1: you know, the destruction of a planet is actually causing harm, 181 00:09:19,116 --> 00:09:21,436 Speaker 1: but moral harms tend to work a little bit differently. 182 00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 3: Talk a little bit about how moral harms work. 183 00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:25,876 Speaker 2: You know, this is very intertwined with the first thing 184 00:09:25,916 --> 00:09:29,836 Speaker 2: we talked about with intentionality and agents, because moral harms 185 00:09:29,876 --> 00:09:33,876 Speaker 2: are harms from agents, but they are by moral harms. 186 00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:36,036 Speaker 2: I guess I'm talking about things that are more like 187 00:09:36,196 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 2: insults than injuries. And we are evolved to care a 188 00:09:40,316 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 2: lot about insults because insults to our honor, insults to 189 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:49,236 Speaker 2: our face are in some sense reducing our or threats 190 00:09:49,236 --> 00:09:52,676 Speaker 2: to reduce our place in a social hierarchy, and so 191 00:09:52,796 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 2: we're very, very concerned with our reputations. What would people 192 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:59,596 Speaker 2: think of us. You know, I could probably steal your 193 00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:02,756 Speaker 2: pencil or you know, bump into your car and you 194 00:10:02,796 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 2: wouldn't get too upset about it. But if I called 195 00:10:05,116 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 2: your mother a dirty name, you would rise up viciously 196 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,276 Speaker 2: attack me. Why there's really no harm done, is there? 197 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 2: Well the answer is yes, it's a moral harm. It 198 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:17,676 Speaker 2: violates your sense of what's fair and just and right. 199 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 2: So we respond to moral harms with great power. And 200 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:24,156 Speaker 2: climate change isn't a moral harm, is it. I mean, 201 00:10:24,196 --> 00:10:25,956 Speaker 2: it's going to ruin our air, in our water, and 202 00:10:25,996 --> 00:10:27,956 Speaker 2: it's going to make the world hot. But it's not 203 00:10:28,076 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 2: insulting us, it's not attacking our religion. 204 00:10:31,036 --> 00:10:33,036 Speaker 1: I mean, but it's incredible right that we're not getting 205 00:10:33,076 --> 00:10:35,076 Speaker 1: freaked out about burning so much coal, but we are 206 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:37,716 Speaker 1: getting freaked out about, say, burning a single flag. When 207 00:10:37,716 --> 00:10:39,836 Speaker 1: somebody does that, now all of a sudden, our moral 208 00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:41,716 Speaker 1: emotions are kind of going going nut. 209 00:10:41,756 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 2: So, yeah, they are. And it's easy to understand why 210 00:10:45,036 --> 00:10:48,116 Speaker 2: we care so much about these things. And the question 211 00:10:48,236 --> 00:10:52,716 Speaker 2: is whether we can subjugate this natural response. And you know, 212 00:10:52,756 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 2: get on board with those two French guys, Pascal and Vermont, 213 00:10:55,716 --> 00:10:58,236 Speaker 2: and say, you know what flag burning it isn't very nice. 214 00:10:58,276 --> 00:11:00,756 Speaker 2: We don't much like it, but maybe we could worry 215 00:11:00,756 --> 00:11:03,636 Speaker 2: about that tomorrow after we've saved the planet. 216 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: Your moral point is really important because it suggests that 217 00:11:05,996 --> 00:11:08,596 Speaker 1: climate change can make us scared, but it doesn't make 218 00:11:08,676 --> 00:11:11,076 Speaker 1: us out raged. And it seems like outrage is a 219 00:11:11,076 --> 00:11:13,036 Speaker 1: sort of special kind of emotion when it comes to 220 00:11:13,076 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 1: causing us to take action. 221 00:11:14,476 --> 00:11:16,356 Speaker 2: It really is, isn't it. I mean, you don't have 222 00:11:16,396 --> 00:11:19,356 Speaker 2: to spend too much time online to realize that it 223 00:11:19,436 --> 00:11:24,476 Speaker 2: is the fundamental driver of most people's online behavior on 224 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:28,756 Speaker 2: platforms like x formerly known as Twitter and others. It's 225 00:11:28,796 --> 00:11:34,156 Speaker 2: about moral outrage. Now, we occasionally feel moral outrage about 226 00:11:34,396 --> 00:11:39,116 Speaker 2: environmental disasters. If Exon, you know, runs their tanker into 227 00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:43,116 Speaker 2: an heisberg and you know, thousands of gallons spill and 228 00:11:43,236 --> 00:11:46,116 Speaker 2: penguins are dying, we all rise up and say, how 229 00:11:46,116 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 2: can you do this? You have to clean it up, right. 230 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:52,356 Speaker 2: It's not like the domain of the environment is completely 231 00:11:52,396 --> 00:11:56,116 Speaker 2: insulated from the moral domain. It's just that when we 232 00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,876 Speaker 2: hear there are glaciers melting and the seas are rising 233 00:11:59,916 --> 00:12:03,436 Speaker 2: and it's just getting warmer, we can't point to any 234 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 2: particular agent who is doing this in order to harm 235 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:09,756 Speaker 2: us or insult us, and so just get our blood 236 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 2: pressure up in the same way that calling your mother 237 00:12:12,476 --> 00:12:13,436 Speaker 2: a bad name does. 238 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: And your Englon example is great because I think it 239 00:12:15,636 --> 00:12:17,836 Speaker 1: gets to the third feature that I think that gets 240 00:12:17,876 --> 00:12:21,916 Speaker 1: our minds going, which is things that happen instantaneously. You know, 241 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:25,076 Speaker 1: the eggs on disaster you described is oil pouring out 242 00:12:25,516 --> 00:12:29,556 Speaker 1: right now. It's happening immediately. And these immediate threats seem 243 00:12:29,596 --> 00:12:31,636 Speaker 1: to be ones that also really kind of get us going. 244 00:12:31,636 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 1: You've described the mind as a sort of get out 245 00:12:33,476 --> 00:12:35,636 Speaker 1: of the wave machine. Like talk a little bit about 246 00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:36,356 Speaker 1: what you mean by that. 247 00:12:36,716 --> 00:12:38,636 Speaker 2: We're very good getting out of the way, aren't we. 248 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:41,236 Speaker 2: If I throw something at you, you will duck before 249 00:12:41,396 --> 00:12:45,196 Speaker 2: you even know it's coming. Your brain responds so quickly 250 00:12:45,316 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 2: to threats that appear immediately and instantly in your environment. 251 00:12:50,356 --> 00:12:53,236 Speaker 2: Most environmental threats are not like that. I mean, occasionally 252 00:12:53,316 --> 00:12:55,596 Speaker 2: they are. There's an oil spill one day, the water 253 00:12:55,756 --> 00:12:58,956 Speaker 2: was cleaned. The next day it's dirty. But by and large, 254 00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:01,716 Speaker 2: the temperature on Earth is not going to increase by 255 00:13:01,756 --> 00:13:05,876 Speaker 2: twenty degrees tomorrow. It's going to increase by point oh 256 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:10,316 Speaker 2: oh one. And then the same amount the next day. 257 00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 2: We're all familiar with the frog that never jumps out 258 00:13:13,396 --> 00:13:15,796 Speaker 2: of the water because the water is being heated from 259 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:18,796 Speaker 2: room temperature to boiling very slowly. That's not a bad 260 00:13:18,916 --> 00:13:22,116 Speaker 2: parable for the place we are right now with regard 261 00:13:22,156 --> 00:13:26,276 Speaker 2: to the environment. These changes are going to be devastating, 262 00:13:26,476 --> 00:13:31,836 Speaker 2: but not tomorrow, and not instantly. Things will change at 263 00:13:31,836 --> 00:13:34,756 Speaker 2: the speed at which we can adapt to them. And 264 00:13:34,796 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 2: we are remarkable adapters. 265 00:13:36,436 --> 00:13:39,396 Speaker 1: And so these instant changes are ones that we notice quickly. 266 00:13:39,636 --> 00:13:41,356 Speaker 1: But it is the case that we have minds that 267 00:13:41,396 --> 00:13:43,356 Speaker 1: can pay a little bit of attention to the future. 268 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:45,876 Speaker 1: But a lot of your work has shown how bad 269 00:13:45,916 --> 00:13:47,836 Speaker 1: we are at doing that. Like it's this kind of 270 00:13:47,876 --> 00:13:50,116 Speaker 1: cool thing that our species can do, but it's still 271 00:13:50,156 --> 00:13:52,476 Speaker 1: a capacity that's a little bit in beta version. 272 00:13:52,756 --> 00:13:57,356 Speaker 2: This is a remarkably evolutionarily speaking, it's a remarkably new capacity. 273 00:13:57,516 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 2: We shouldn't be surprised that its reach is limited. I mean, 274 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 2: we really should be surprised that we have it at all, 275 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:07,116 Speaker 2: because as far as we know, no other animal does 276 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:10,676 Speaker 2: at least nothing like power ability to look into the 277 00:14:10,676 --> 00:14:14,196 Speaker 2: far future and reason about it. But with that said, 278 00:14:15,516 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 2: every day we see people failing to use this capacity, 279 00:14:19,476 --> 00:14:22,836 Speaker 2: at least as logic would have us. People don't save 280 00:14:22,956 --> 00:14:26,836 Speaker 2: enough for retirement. People don't floss when they know that 281 00:14:26,956 --> 00:14:29,836 Speaker 2: little act would save them a lot of dental pain 282 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 2: down the road. People eat badly and say I'll die 283 00:14:33,316 --> 00:14:37,196 Speaker 2: it tomorrow. Why. Well, because it's kind of hard to 284 00:14:37,236 --> 00:14:40,916 Speaker 2: take actions that are difficult today in the service of 285 00:14:40,956 --> 00:14:44,396 Speaker 2: someone you're going to be in the far future. Climate change, 286 00:14:45,556 --> 00:14:48,316 Speaker 2: you know, I could have just been describing it. So 287 00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:50,716 Speaker 2: I should go spend a lot of money changing all 288 00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:55,116 Speaker 2: my light bulbs because maybe someday that will help someone 289 00:14:55,156 --> 00:14:59,196 Speaker 2: who isn't me. That's pretty hard for most people to do. 290 00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 1: Another thing that's hard for people to do is to 291 00:15:01,076 --> 00:15:03,676 Speaker 1: deal with these threats when they're not instantaneous, when they're 292 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:06,836 Speaker 1: not happening really quickly, as you mentioned, and this seems 293 00:15:06,836 --> 00:15:08,956 Speaker 1: to be kind of related to a different happiness bias. 294 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:11,156 Speaker 1: We've talked a lot of this podcasts, right that we 295 00:15:11,236 --> 00:15:13,716 Speaker 1: kind of get used to stuff over time because these 296 00:15:13,796 --> 00:15:16,516 Speaker 1: changes are happening so slowly. It's not the kind of 297 00:15:16,516 --> 00:15:18,956 Speaker 1: thing where the temperature changes so quickly and I tend 298 00:15:19,036 --> 00:15:21,356 Speaker 1: to notice it. It tends to kind of go under 299 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:23,636 Speaker 1: the radar and this is part and parcel of a 300 00:15:23,716 --> 00:15:26,236 Speaker 1: bigger kind of problem for our happiness. Right, this idea 301 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: of adaptation. Tell me what adaptation is and why it's 302 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:29,556 Speaker 1: so problematic. 303 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 2: Well, people do get used to things, of course, but 304 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:36,076 Speaker 2: they get used to them much better than they themselves predict. 305 00:15:36,236 --> 00:15:41,316 Speaker 2: We are world champion habituators and adapters, and that's usually 306 00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:44,516 Speaker 2: really good. That means when bad things happen in our lives, 307 00:15:44,556 --> 00:15:47,436 Speaker 2: you know, we lose the use of a limb, or 308 00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:52,556 Speaker 2: relationship status changes from married to divorce, or any of 309 00:15:52,596 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 2: the normal slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that befall people. 310 00:15:56,396 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 2: Every day, we get on board with the new program 311 00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 2: and we basically do just fine. But this remarkable ability 312 00:16:04,356 --> 00:16:07,196 Speaker 2: to adapt can also be our enemy, because it makes 313 00:16:07,476 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 2: us not react to bad things that happen slowly enough 314 00:16:13,356 --> 00:16:16,236 Speaker 2: for us to get used to them. My grandchildren don't 315 00:16:16,236 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 2: think there's anything odd about a river or a stream 316 00:16:20,156 --> 00:16:23,156 Speaker 2: that has a sign that says don't swim. When I 317 00:16:23,276 --> 00:16:25,956 Speaker 2: was a kid, that would have been a science fiction story. 318 00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 2: A stream or a river in which you can't swim. 319 00:16:29,916 --> 00:16:32,116 Speaker 2: What happened to the water, Well, what happened to the 320 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:34,596 Speaker 2: water in America has it got more polluted a little 321 00:16:34,636 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 2: bit every day. I got used to it. Whole generations 322 00:16:37,996 --> 00:16:41,076 Speaker 2: are now being born who've never seen anything else. If 323 00:16:41,116 --> 00:16:43,836 Speaker 2: tomorrow we were all told we could never go outside 324 00:16:43,836 --> 00:16:47,916 Speaker 2: our homes again, what would we do? I mean, we 325 00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:51,036 Speaker 2: would riot, we would elect a new government, we would 326 00:16:51,116 --> 00:16:54,716 Speaker 2: protest in every possible way. But I assure you that 327 00:16:54,916 --> 00:16:57,796 Speaker 2: if the number of days you have to stay indoors 328 00:16:58,436 --> 00:17:02,956 Speaker 2: increases from zero to one next year, to two the 329 00:17:03,036 --> 00:17:06,836 Speaker 2: following year, in three hundred and sixty five years, people 330 00:17:06,876 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 2: will not think it strange that nobody else can go outdoors. 331 00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:12,796 Speaker 1: I think we even show this adaptation for things that 332 00:17:12,956 --> 00:17:15,676 Speaker 1: happen even a little bit more quickly. I remember this 333 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:18,796 Speaker 1: year was the first year that I started noticing, you know, 334 00:17:18,836 --> 00:17:21,316 Speaker 1: the skies were looking hazy, because then the East Coast 335 00:17:21,316 --> 00:17:23,636 Speaker 1: where I lived, there's so many fires happening in Canada. 336 00:17:23,836 --> 00:17:25,636 Speaker 1: I think the first day was really hazy, you know. 337 00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:27,676 Speaker 1: I remember my husband and I going outside and be like, wow, 338 00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:30,556 Speaker 1: it's so hazy. But day three, day four, all of 339 00:17:30,596 --> 00:17:32,676 Speaker 1: a sudden, I'm like, yeah, it's just hazy again. I've 340 00:17:32,716 --> 00:17:34,996 Speaker 1: sort of stopped remarking about it. So even some of 341 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:37,756 Speaker 1: these changes that feel like they're happening a little bit faster. 342 00:17:37,956 --> 00:17:39,796 Speaker 3: Ones that we don't seem to notice that much. 343 00:17:39,916 --> 00:17:43,596 Speaker 2: We don't seem to notice, and we more importantly, we 344 00:17:43,716 --> 00:17:46,756 Speaker 2: don't object. And one reason we don't object, of course, 345 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:48,836 Speaker 2: is because it's not just us. If you were the 346 00:17:48,836 --> 00:17:52,596 Speaker 2: only person who couldn't go outside, you'd be forming an 347 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:55,396 Speaker 2: action group, you'd be writing to your senators. But it's 348 00:17:55,436 --> 00:17:58,356 Speaker 2: everybody else too, and none of them are going out. 349 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:01,076 Speaker 2: And you know, what we think is normal is what 350 00:18:01,156 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 2: everybody is doing. That's the definition of normal for most people. 351 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 2: So as long as most people can't drink the water, 352 00:18:07,836 --> 00:18:11,076 Speaker 2: can't easily breathe the air, as long as most people 353 00:18:11,196 --> 00:18:16,796 Speaker 2: can't live south of Missouri anymore. The other problem, of course, 354 00:18:16,876 --> 00:18:20,436 Speaker 2: is even if people thought, darn, this is really bad, 355 00:18:20,836 --> 00:18:23,676 Speaker 2: I need to do something, most people don't know what 356 00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 2: they could do. They understand that climate change is far 357 00:18:26,876 --> 00:18:30,996 Speaker 2: too big a threat for anything they do today. To 358 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 2: make a bit of difference, it requires mass action. 359 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:37,116 Speaker 1: There's also lots of evidence that our actions, even though 360 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:39,756 Speaker 1: we often think of them as happening in isolation, they don't, 361 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:41,956 Speaker 1: you know. So if I put solar panels up, that 362 00:18:41,956 --> 00:18:44,436 Speaker 1: has an interesting effect on your psychology if you live 363 00:18:44,516 --> 00:18:46,796 Speaker 1: next door to me. So talk about how that effect 364 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:49,996 Speaker 1: might actually allow for collective action out of individual action. 365 00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:52,436 Speaker 2: Well, you're making a great point, which is that your 366 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:56,796 Speaker 2: action has direct effects on problems. So you put solar 367 00:18:56,796 --> 00:18:59,716 Speaker 2: panels on your house, and you have actually reduced the 368 00:18:59,756 --> 00:19:03,636 Speaker 2: electrical usage in your city by an extremely small amount. 369 00:19:03,956 --> 00:19:06,996 Speaker 2: But you've also created an example. As we mentioned earlier, 370 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:12,196 Speaker 2: human beings define normal by what they see done around them, 371 00:19:12,676 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 2: and once solar panels are going up in the neighborhood, 372 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:18,236 Speaker 2: it suddenly seems like a thing a reasonable person could do. 373 00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:22,036 Speaker 2: So there are these cascading effects. There are indirect effects 374 00:19:22,036 --> 00:19:23,276 Speaker 2: of doing the right thing. 375 00:19:25,836 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 1: One of the things I love about human psychology is 376 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:31,476 Speaker 1: just how complicated it is. We have so many stubborn 377 00:19:31,516 --> 00:19:34,236 Speaker 1: biases that prevent us from doing stuff that will directly 378 00:19:34,276 --> 00:19:37,356 Speaker 1: benefit us and our planet. But there are also other 379 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 1: biases that we can harness for good, like Dan's example 380 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 1: of us wanting to emulate the environmental habits of our neighbors. 381 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:47,596 Speaker 1: So what other psychological hacks might help us deal more 382 00:19:47,596 --> 00:19:49,236 Speaker 1: effectively with climate change? 383 00:19:49,596 --> 00:19:51,716 Speaker 3: Dan will tell us more after the break. 384 00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 1: Tragically, climate change isn't the kind of threat humans are 385 00:20:02,596 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 1: good at dealing with. We swing into action if we're 386 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:07,956 Speaker 1: put in danger by something sudden or by some cruel 387 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:11,556 Speaker 1: person out to harm us, and Harvard's psychologist Dan Gilbert 388 00:20:11,556 --> 00:20:14,196 Speaker 1: says we're also more likely to take action if we 389 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:16,276 Speaker 1: think our individual behaviors. 390 00:20:15,836 --> 00:20:17,476 Speaker 3: Will have a real effect on the problem. 391 00:20:18,116 --> 00:20:20,916 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we don't always feel like that's the case with 392 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:22,876 Speaker 1: an issue as huge as global heating. 393 00:20:24,236 --> 00:20:27,516 Speaker 2: Do I pay for offsetting the carbon on my next 394 00:20:27,676 --> 00:20:30,756 Speaker 2: airplane ride? Okay, I guess that would be good. But 395 00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 2: surely if I do that or don't, I can't imagine 396 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 2: that the world will feel the effects of my tiny 397 00:20:36,916 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 2: little action. 398 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 1: But don't despair, because our mind's biases can be harnessed 399 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:45,196 Speaker 1: to help solve environmental problems in the blink of an eye, 400 00:20:45,516 --> 00:20:48,156 Speaker 1: provided those problems are framed in the right way. 401 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:52,196 Speaker 2: There is a wonderful study by Bob Chaldeeni and his group. 402 00:20:52,356 --> 00:20:54,716 Speaker 2: They just tried to find out if they could put 403 00:20:54,876 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 2: signs in hotel rooms that would make the person who 404 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:03,236 Speaker 2: checked into that room a little more likely to reuse 405 00:21:03,276 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 2: their beth towels, Evidently, having somebody wash your towel every 406 00:21:07,476 --> 00:21:11,276 Speaker 2: day just because they will, and it's free. Is pretty 407 00:21:11,316 --> 00:21:13,876 Speaker 2: bad for the environment. So you can get hotel guests 408 00:21:13,916 --> 00:21:16,276 Speaker 2: to use their towels for a couple of days, as 409 00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 2: they probably do at home. It's a great thing for 410 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 2: the environment. Well, Charldony and his team tried a number 411 00:21:22,116 --> 00:21:25,036 Speaker 2: of things. You can threaten people, you can cajole people, 412 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 2: you can reward people. But the single most effective sign 413 00:21:28,116 --> 00:21:30,116 Speaker 2: that they put in the room was the one that 414 00:21:30,236 --> 00:21:33,396 Speaker 2: simply said, most of the guests who stay in this 415 00:21:33,556 --> 00:21:38,516 Speaker 2: room reuse their towels. Human beings want to be like 416 00:21:38,716 --> 00:21:42,076 Speaker 2: most people. If everyone's doing it, it's probably the right thing, 417 00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:45,996 Speaker 2: so I should do it too. And they played on 418 00:21:46,036 --> 00:21:49,076 Speaker 2: this little piece of psychology to great effect. You see 419 00:21:49,076 --> 00:21:50,956 Speaker 2: the same thing most of us now when we get 420 00:21:50,956 --> 00:21:54,516 Speaker 2: an electric bill, it includes some little graph that shows 421 00:21:54,556 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 2: us how much electricity we're using compared to our neighbors. 422 00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 2: Nobody did this fifteen years ago, but the Sacramento Municipal 423 00:22:02,796 --> 00:22:05,676 Speaker 2: Utility District, I believe, was the first to try this, 424 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:10,236 Speaker 2: and suddenly people were embarrassed, I'm using too much electricity? 425 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:13,676 Speaker 2: Why because look how little other people are using. I 426 00:22:13,716 --> 00:22:16,076 Speaker 2: want to be like them. So this is a lever 427 00:22:16,196 --> 00:22:18,796 Speaker 2: we can push for the good of the world, but 428 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:21,716 Speaker 2: whether it comes to climate change or anything else. When 429 00:22:21,756 --> 00:22:25,876 Speaker 2: I lived in Texas in the nineteen eighties, there was 430 00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:29,636 Speaker 2: a massive litter problem, and studies showed that a lot 431 00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:32,836 Speaker 2: of highway litter was being thrown out of the windows 432 00:22:32,836 --> 00:22:36,796 Speaker 2: of pickup trucks by men between the ages of eighteen 433 00:22:36,836 --> 00:22:40,636 Speaker 2: and thirty two. And somebody somewhere deep in the bowels 434 00:22:40,636 --> 00:22:44,916 Speaker 2: of government, somebody who deserves a Nobel prize, in my opinion, 435 00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:48,076 Speaker 2: had the idea of coming up with a slogan that 436 00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:52,876 Speaker 2: would appeal to this particular demographic, and it was now 437 00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:58,876 Speaker 2: the now famous don't mess with Texas seventy two percent 438 00:22:59,036 --> 00:23:06,396 Speaker 2: reduction in litter due to four really well placed words. Now, 439 00:23:08,076 --> 00:23:10,316 Speaker 2: in some sense, a person who came up with those 440 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 2: four words was appealing to a bias. They were appealing 441 00:23:14,076 --> 00:23:17,436 Speaker 2: to the fact that the litterers were young men with 442 00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:21,276 Speaker 2: great pride in their state who didn't want to be 443 00:23:21,396 --> 00:23:23,596 Speaker 2: messed with in any way. There was kind of a 444 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 2: macho element, and this message was crafted so that it 445 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 2: appealed to these people. I just think it's a masterful 446 00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 2: example of how you can do very very small things 447 00:23:34,796 --> 00:23:36,756 Speaker 2: to make a very big. 448 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:39,916 Speaker 1: Difference, and those small things were powerful in part because 449 00:23:39,916 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 1: they played on this idea of our moral violations. They 450 00:23:43,076 --> 00:23:46,556 Speaker 1: caused people to see litter as outrageous rather than just 451 00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 1: kind of annoying or dirty, and kind of played into 452 00:23:49,036 --> 00:23:50,076 Speaker 1: our moral emotions. 453 00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:53,396 Speaker 2: They did. Indeed, so throwing something out the window of 454 00:23:53,396 --> 00:23:55,716 Speaker 2: a pickup truck is not only a moral violation, but 455 00:23:55,756 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 2: it's a moral violation by somebody. Somebody, somebody is messing 456 00:24:01,596 --> 00:24:04,276 Speaker 2: with taxes. Well, we can't let that happen, gan we 457 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 2: And this seems. 458 00:24:04,996 --> 00:24:08,076 Speaker 1: To be a strategy that climate change activists are using 459 00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:10,636 Speaker 1: a little bit more often. I'm not sure what's happening 460 00:24:10,716 --> 00:24:12,716 Speaker 1: at Harvard, but a lot of our climate activists on 461 00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:15,436 Speaker 1: campus are calling out the president and saying, because Yale 462 00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:19,276 Speaker 1: is investing in fossil fuels, you know, President Peter Salave 463 00:24:19,276 --> 00:24:22,996 Speaker 1: are causing this problem, and so talk about how this 464 00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:25,156 Speaker 1: is activating our psychology in a way that might get 465 00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:27,996 Speaker 1: people to sort of respond more than the normal techniques. 466 00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 2: Well, I do think that if you can find a 467 00:24:30,516 --> 00:24:33,396 Speaker 2: face for the problem, you have some chance of getting 468 00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:36,756 Speaker 2: people more riled up about it. But I'm not sure 469 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:40,676 Speaker 2: it's worked so far. I'm not sure naming the CEO 470 00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:45,196 Speaker 2: of Exxon makes people any more angry at Exon than 471 00:24:45,316 --> 00:24:48,956 Speaker 2: it just being a company they feel angry about. I 472 00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:53,036 Speaker 2: understand the psychology behind the attempt. Let's blame somebody, and 473 00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:56,796 Speaker 2: we can get everybody upset at this particular guy, then 474 00:24:56,836 --> 00:24:59,356 Speaker 2: they'll take action. Maybe there are data out there showing 475 00:24:59,396 --> 00:25:01,436 Speaker 2: they have, but it sure doesn't look like it to me. 476 00:25:01,716 --> 00:25:03,796 Speaker 2: It just sounds like they're chanting a name and they're 477 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:07,396 Speaker 2: holding somebody liable for the problems. My guess is most 478 00:25:07,396 --> 00:25:11,356 Speaker 2: of the public thinks this isn't the evil actor who 479 00:25:11,356 --> 00:25:14,396 Speaker 2: If only we could assassinate them, everything would go back 480 00:25:14,436 --> 00:25:14,996 Speaker 2: to normal. 481 00:25:15,716 --> 00:25:18,716 Speaker 1: Another lever Weekend Push is starting to recognize that climate 482 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:21,396 Speaker 1: change is a little bit more immediate, which for better 483 00:25:21,476 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 1: or for worse, since you actually started talking about this, 484 00:25:24,316 --> 00:25:27,156 Speaker 1: we have started recognizing just because the problem has felt 485 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:30,156 Speaker 1: more immediate, there's more fires, there's more terrible storms, and 486 00:25:30,196 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 1: so on. So you first started talking about this almost 487 00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:34,636 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. I don't know what does that make 488 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:37,756 Speaker 1: you feel like with these we've known about these biases 489 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 1: for a while, but we haven't taken action. 490 00:25:39,436 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, twenty years ago, I was telling people, you know, 491 00:25:42,636 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 2: one of the reasons we're not doing anything is we 492 00:25:44,796 --> 00:25:48,476 Speaker 2: don't see the effects of climate change yet. Well they're here. 493 00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:52,396 Speaker 2: They've arrived, and I do think there's been an uptick 494 00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:55,796 Speaker 2: in response to it because suddenly people are going the 495 00:25:55,956 --> 00:25:58,916 Speaker 2: reason it's too hot for me to go outside, the 496 00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:03,276 Speaker 2: reason planes can't land in Phoenix today, the reason we're 497 00:26:03,356 --> 00:26:06,316 Speaker 2: running out of water, the reason the hurricanes have gotten 498 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 2: worse is climate change. So finally the damage is arriving 499 00:26:11,156 --> 00:26:15,116 Speaker 2: and we are paying more attention. The problem is, this 500 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:17,876 Speaker 2: was the kind of threat you needed to respond to 501 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:23,196 Speaker 2: before it arrived. Once it has arrived, it's too late. 502 00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 2: We need a much bigger response to get much less 503 00:26:26,876 --> 00:26:30,116 Speaker 2: of an outcome today than we did twenty years ago. 504 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:32,916 Speaker 2: But it is upon us, and I think most people 505 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 2: see it and recognize it and now accept it. Remember 506 00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:39,836 Speaker 2: twenty years ago, we had an entire wing of in 507 00:26:39,876 --> 00:26:42,956 Speaker 2: our democracy saying there is no such thing as climate change. 508 00:26:42,996 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 2: It isn't getting warmer, and if it is, it's only 509 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:48,156 Speaker 2: an act of God. It has nothing to do with 510 00:26:48,196 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 2: our use of resources. So twenty years we've been fighting 511 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 2: against people who didn't even want to acknowledge it was happening. 512 00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:57,196 Speaker 2: Much less asked the question about what should we do 513 00:26:57,236 --> 00:27:00,396 Speaker 2: about it? I think those people are finally in a minority. 514 00:27:00,476 --> 00:27:04,276 Speaker 2: Even in the Republican Party. Most Republicans are saying, yes, 515 00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:07,596 Speaker 2: the climate is changing, Yes, we probably should do something 516 00:27:07,676 --> 00:27:10,636 Speaker 2: about it. In the discussion is only about what does 517 00:27:10,676 --> 00:27:11,276 Speaker 2: something mean? 518 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:14,116 Speaker 1: And I think this figuring out what something means actually 519 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 1: it gets back to another part of your work that 520 00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:18,556 Speaker 1: I think is so relevant for the climate discussion, which 521 00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: is this idea that we have these brains that can 522 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 1: imagine different futures. A lot of times when we imagine 523 00:27:23,876 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 1: the climate future, we imagine the doom and gloom version 524 00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:28,076 Speaker 1: of it, right, you know, the seas are going to rise, 525 00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:29,916 Speaker 1: and Lower Manhattan is going to be flooded, and all 526 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:32,476 Speaker 1: these terrible things are going to happen. But talk about 527 00:27:32,476 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: the possibility of imagining positive futures and what that might 528 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:39,156 Speaker 1: do to kind of help our actions on climate change. 529 00:27:39,436 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 2: Well, human beings respond to carrots and they respond to sticks. 530 00:27:42,516 --> 00:27:44,916 Speaker 2: And we've known for a very long time that the 531 00:27:44,956 --> 00:27:48,756 Speaker 2: response to sticks is more immediate and stronger, but it's 532 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 2: not very effective if people don't know what to do 533 00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 2: to avoid getting hit with the stick. There's very old 534 00:27:55,236 --> 00:27:58,316 Speaker 2: work in social psychology by a Yale professor in fact 535 00:27:58,396 --> 00:28:02,036 Speaker 2: named IRV Janis, who showed that fear messages can be 536 00:28:02,076 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 2: effective if they're accompanied by a clear indicator of what 537 00:28:06,516 --> 00:28:10,796 Speaker 2: you do to avoid being afraid. Just tell people it's 538 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:13,196 Speaker 2: all bad and it's getting worse, and you can't tell 539 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:15,876 Speaker 2: them exactly what they should do to make it better, 540 00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:19,156 Speaker 2: they basically tune out. So carrots are very effective in 541 00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:22,156 Speaker 2: this regard. And we do need carrots and we have them, 542 00:28:22,156 --> 00:28:24,796 Speaker 2: but they're not carrots like, let's look on the bright 543 00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 2: side of climate change. You'll be able to sail in Vermont. 544 00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:30,516 Speaker 2: Won't that be wonderful? No. No, the messages I think are 545 00:28:30,556 --> 00:28:34,236 Speaker 2: actually economic, and there are messages that are now coming 546 00:28:34,276 --> 00:28:36,916 Speaker 2: through loud and clear that we're not doing these things 547 00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:39,716 Speaker 2: necessarily to solve a problem. We're doing it because it's 548 00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:42,276 Speaker 2: going to create jobs. It's going to create a vibrant 549 00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:45,356 Speaker 2: new economy. Look at what we're going to be able 550 00:28:45,356 --> 00:28:48,676 Speaker 2: to do with electric cars. I think that's actually a 551 00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:51,716 Speaker 2: very effective way to get people to do the right 552 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:55,636 Speaker 2: thing by showing them how attractive the opportunities are in 553 00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:58,356 Speaker 2: this new world we're trying to create, rather than just 554 00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:01,356 Speaker 2: scaring them about how bad it is if they don't 555 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:01,636 Speaker 2: do it. 556 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:03,276 Speaker 1: When we think about the kinds of actions we need 557 00:29:03,316 --> 00:29:05,276 Speaker 1: to take to fix climate change, I think this is 558 00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:07,876 Speaker 1: another spot where our biases mess us up, because when 559 00:29:07,916 --> 00:29:10,836 Speaker 1: I try to simulate how I'll feel, you know, making 560 00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:13,356 Speaker 1: the sorts of sacrifices that might be required to kind 561 00:29:13,396 --> 00:29:16,356 Speaker 1: of fix climate I can sometimes think that those things 562 00:29:16,396 --> 00:29:18,116 Speaker 1: are going to hurt me much more than they could. 563 00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:20,356 Speaker 1: Right I simulate I don't have an EV right now, 564 00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:23,356 Speaker 1: very embarrassing, you know, from this sort of social comparison thing. 565 00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:25,556 Speaker 1: But when I simulate getting an EV, I'm like, oh, 566 00:29:25,636 --> 00:29:27,116 Speaker 1: that's going to be a pain to figure out where 567 00:29:27,116 --> 00:29:28,956 Speaker 1: I'm going to plug it in, or kind of mapping 568 00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:30,996 Speaker 1: out my drive so I can find a charger. But 569 00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:33,236 Speaker 1: in practice, when I actually do that, it might not 570 00:29:33,316 --> 00:29:35,396 Speaker 1: be as bad as we think. This gets back to 571 00:29:35,436 --> 00:29:37,516 Speaker 1: another bias that I know you've studied in detail, this 572 00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 1: bias of affective forecasting. You know, explain what effective forecasting 573 00:29:41,476 --> 00:29:43,836 Speaker 1: is and why changing our behavior to be a little 574 00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 1: bit more sustainable might not be as bad as we think. 575 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:49,036 Speaker 2: Well. Affect to forecasting is just a mouthful of words 576 00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:51,436 Speaker 2: that means looking into the future, and figuring out what 577 00:29:51,516 --> 00:29:53,996 Speaker 2: will make you happy. If it'll make you happy, how 578 00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,276 Speaker 2: long that happiness will last. It's just a prediction about 579 00:29:57,356 --> 00:30:00,356 Speaker 2: what will be good and what will be bad for you. 580 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:02,756 Speaker 2: And you're right that people make errors when they try 581 00:30:02,796 --> 00:30:05,796 Speaker 2: to do that kind of work. And you're imagining that 582 00:30:05,876 --> 00:30:08,556 Speaker 2: getting an EV will be very difficult at plugging and 583 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:11,676 Speaker 2: it will be hard, And you're probably right about some 584 00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:14,476 Speaker 2: of those things, but you're also failing to imagine a 585 00:30:14,516 --> 00:30:16,956 Speaker 2: number of things. You're failing to imagine how good you're 586 00:30:16,956 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 2: going to feel every time you get in it, drive 587 00:30:18,876 --> 00:30:21,356 Speaker 2: down the street, and show all those other drivers that 588 00:30:21,596 --> 00:30:24,036 Speaker 2: you mean business when it comes to climate change, on 589 00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:26,556 Speaker 2: and on and on. You'll imagine some of the things 590 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:29,396 Speaker 2: about this, but you'll fail to imagine others. So your 591 00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:32,436 Speaker 2: imagination turns out not to be a great guide as 592 00:30:32,436 --> 00:30:34,676 Speaker 2: to how good you will feel. Well? What should you 593 00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:38,476 Speaker 2: do instead? If your imagination is going to not serve 594 00:30:38,516 --> 00:30:41,036 Speaker 2: you well? Well, one easy way to find out how 595 00:30:41,036 --> 00:30:42,916 Speaker 2: you'll feel if you buy an EV is to see 596 00:30:42,956 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 2: how people who have already done it actually do feel. 597 00:30:46,796 --> 00:30:49,876 Speaker 2: And what you'll find is that Tesla owners are among 598 00:30:49,876 --> 00:30:52,916 Speaker 2: the most satisfied humans on Earth. They love their cars 599 00:30:52,956 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 2: and they love having bought them. Is there any reason 600 00:30:55,516 --> 00:30:57,436 Speaker 2: you don't think you would join their ranks? 601 00:30:57,556 --> 00:30:57,996 Speaker 3: It's funny. 602 00:30:57,996 --> 00:31:00,316 Speaker 1: I just had a conversation at a dinner party yesterday 603 00:31:00,356 --> 00:31:03,196 Speaker 1: with an EV owner who is evangelical about their EV 604 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 1: and they're like, Oh my gosh, it's so easy and 605 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:07,276 Speaker 1: it's so fun and it's so much faster than you think. 606 00:31:07,596 --> 00:31:10,316 Speaker 1: And it really was one of these cases of getting testimony. 607 00:31:10,396 --> 00:31:12,716 Speaker 1: That person's testimony is an owner of an EV is 608 00:31:12,756 --> 00:31:14,836 Speaker 1: so much better than my simulation is ever going to 609 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:15,716 Speaker 1: be about what it's like. 610 00:31:16,076 --> 00:31:18,596 Speaker 2: There's no doubt it's better in helping you make an 611 00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:21,716 Speaker 2: accurate forecast. But we also know people don't trust it 612 00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:25,876 Speaker 2: as much. People place undue stock in their own imaginations, 613 00:31:26,556 --> 00:31:30,636 Speaker 2: and they don't properly value the experiences of others because 614 00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:33,916 Speaker 2: they say, yeah, but that's Fred. I'm not Fred. Fred 615 00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 2: is different than I am. Actually, in most ways, Fred 616 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:39,716 Speaker 2: isn't different than you are. Human beings are much more 617 00:31:40,076 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 2: like than they expect. They have an illusion of uniqueness 618 00:31:42,996 --> 00:31:45,556 Speaker 2: that makes them think that there's no way anybody else 619 00:31:45,556 --> 00:31:48,476 Speaker 2: can tell me about my future. Yes, actually, if everybody 620 00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:51,356 Speaker 2: who's a lawyer is miserable. You're almost surely going to 621 00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:52,476 Speaker 2: be a miserable lawyer too. 622 00:31:52,636 --> 00:31:53,916 Speaker 1: So the last thing we can do to try to 623 00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:57,076 Speaker 1: promote better climate behaviors is to recognize what helps us 624 00:31:57,116 --> 00:32:00,156 Speaker 1: get that sort of future planning going a little bit, because, 625 00:32:00,196 --> 00:32:02,636 Speaker 1: as you've mentioned, we can simulate the future, but it's 626 00:32:02,716 --> 00:32:05,196 Speaker 1: kind of hard. We can save for retirement, but it's hard. 627 00:32:05,676 --> 00:32:07,836 Speaker 1: Talk about the things that help us get our future 628 00:32:07,876 --> 00:32:10,316 Speaker 1: planning going. Now, we might be able to harness those 629 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:12,476 Speaker 1: same kinds of things to help with climate change. 630 00:32:12,956 --> 00:32:14,836 Speaker 2: You know. I think there are two paths that we 631 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:18,076 Speaker 2: can take. One is the path that most psychologists like 632 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 2: you and me are tempted to take, which is to 633 00:32:20,516 --> 00:32:23,956 Speaker 2: think about the things we could do to get every 634 00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:28,276 Speaker 2: day people to take different actions in their everyday lives. 635 00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:31,076 Speaker 2: But the fact is that all of that is not 636 00:32:31,236 --> 00:32:34,116 Speaker 2: going to add up to a lot, and most people 637 00:32:34,156 --> 00:32:35,916 Speaker 2: aren't going to do it. And I think it was 638 00:32:35,956 --> 00:32:38,796 Speaker 2: Al Gore who said, if you really care about the climate, 639 00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:42,596 Speaker 2: instead of changing your light bulbs or worrying about carbon offsets, 640 00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:45,116 Speaker 2: you should vote. I mean, if you really want to 641 00:32:45,156 --> 00:32:48,516 Speaker 2: make change, you make change to the system in which 642 00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:53,116 Speaker 2: people function, rather than asking individuals to please defy their 643 00:32:53,156 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 2: own nature a little bit differently. Retirement savings is a 644 00:32:57,356 --> 00:33:01,276 Speaker 2: great example. If we were to just cajole people, convince them, 645 00:33:01,436 --> 00:33:05,596 Speaker 2: tempt them, amuse them into saving for retirement, no one 646 00:33:05,636 --> 00:33:08,356 Speaker 2: in America would be doing it right, just like they 647 00:33:08,396 --> 00:33:11,236 Speaker 2: don't floss. We wouldn't do those things. But we've managed 648 00:33:11,236 --> 00:33:14,956 Speaker 2: to institutionalize retirement savings. So now your employer says to you, 649 00:33:15,356 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 2: I will be withholding some of your salary. I will 650 00:33:18,196 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 2: be putting it away for you for retirement because I 651 00:33:20,956 --> 00:33:23,476 Speaker 2: know you are just too flawed to do it on 652 00:33:23,516 --> 00:33:26,236 Speaker 2: your own. And as a result, a lot of Americans 653 00:33:26,276 --> 00:33:29,556 Speaker 2: now have retirement savings. One of your colleagues, Kelly Brownell, 654 00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:31,676 Speaker 2: once told me. He said, you know, if you want 655 00:33:31,716 --> 00:33:33,476 Speaker 2: to get people to eat better, you can try a 656 00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:35,996 Speaker 2: million different things, almost none of them work. But the 657 00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:37,876 Speaker 2: best thing you can do is make sure there's a 658 00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:40,596 Speaker 2: grocery store that has produced within one mile of their home. 659 00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:43,676 Speaker 2: I think the same thing is true for climate change. 660 00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:46,476 Speaker 2: We have to stop saying to people it's on you 661 00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:49,196 Speaker 2: to change your light bulb. That's going to fix the problem. No, 662 00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:52,156 Speaker 2: we have to stop using fossil fuels. There are a 663 00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:55,676 Speaker 2: lot of people who are deeply economically invested in making 664 00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:58,876 Speaker 2: sure we keep using fossil fuels. You have to vote 665 00:33:59,076 --> 00:34:02,596 Speaker 2: for a government that will tell them no. Until we 666 00:34:02,636 --> 00:34:06,196 Speaker 2: do that, everything else is just working around the margins. 667 00:34:06,316 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 2: So I'm sorry to say as a psychologist that I 668 00:34:08,236 --> 00:34:11,356 Speaker 2: think there's a lot less psychology to fixing this problem 669 00:34:11,596 --> 00:34:13,636 Speaker 2: then there is just politics. 670 00:34:13,756 --> 00:34:16,316 Speaker 1: But I think it actually comes from understanding our psychology. 671 00:34:16,356 --> 00:34:18,196 Speaker 1: There's things we can do with our own psychology that 672 00:34:18,316 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 1: might not require as much government intervention. Like you know, 673 00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:23,676 Speaker 1: somebody burns a flag. We don't need a politician to 674 00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:26,356 Speaker 1: tell us like, hey, get upset about that. But with 675 00:34:26,436 --> 00:34:29,236 Speaker 1: these things that don't activate our evolutionary biases, we do 676 00:34:29,316 --> 00:34:32,276 Speaker 1: need the system, and that is coming from psychology. That's 677 00:34:32,356 --> 00:34:34,796 Speaker 1: understanding our psychology to know when we need help and 678 00:34:34,836 --> 00:34:35,396 Speaker 1: when we don't. 679 00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:37,916 Speaker 2: Well, I like the fact that you have given us 680 00:34:37,956 --> 00:34:40,636 Speaker 2: credit for something, even if we don't deserve it. I'll 681 00:34:40,636 --> 00:34:42,516 Speaker 2: take it. You're right, it's all psychology. 682 00:34:43,396 --> 00:34:44,116 Speaker 3: I'll take it. 683 00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:48,276 Speaker 2: I don't want to seem like I'm saying there's no 684 00:34:48,516 --> 00:34:53,396 Speaker 2: room for changing the behavior of individuals so that they 685 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:56,436 Speaker 2: contribute less to the problem and more to the solution. 686 00:34:56,676 --> 00:35:00,716 Speaker 2: There is I think there's a large role, maybe even 687 00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:04,596 Speaker 2: the largest role, is for government to change the behavior 688 00:35:05,116 --> 00:35:08,596 Speaker 2: of nations. But with that said, I'm all for anything 689 00:35:08,596 --> 00:35:11,956 Speaker 2: that gets human beings to do what is better for 690 00:35:11,996 --> 00:35:15,236 Speaker 2: the climate. And I think psychologists are there to help 691 00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:17,996 Speaker 2: you with a whole host of tricks that can get 692 00:35:18,116 --> 00:35:20,916 Speaker 2: at least some percentage of individuals to do better in 693 00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:23,316 Speaker 2: their everyday lives. I mean, here's the good news about 694 00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:27,676 Speaker 2: climate change. There aren't many people who are going, no, 695 00:35:28,076 --> 00:35:30,356 Speaker 2: I don't want to fix this problem. I really think 696 00:35:30,356 --> 00:35:33,076 Speaker 2: it's great. I'm so glad there are more wildfires in 697 00:35:33,076 --> 00:35:36,836 Speaker 2: California and that Arizonas won't have water to drink. Right, 698 00:35:36,876 --> 00:35:39,876 Speaker 2: we're kind of all almost all of us, at least 699 00:35:39,956 --> 00:35:42,476 Speaker 2: almost all of us, are on the same side of 700 00:35:42,476 --> 00:35:45,716 Speaker 2: this problem, and we're only talking about how do we 701 00:35:45,796 --> 00:35:47,836 Speaker 2: solve it. If you think of the most of the 702 00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:51,756 Speaker 2: problems that face us, we're arguing about whether there is 703 00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:54,876 Speaker 2: a problem and what the problem is. We all agree 704 00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:57,356 Speaker 2: about all of this now, and we just have to 705 00:35:57,356 --> 00:35:59,156 Speaker 2: get on board with what we're going to do to 706 00:35:59,236 --> 00:36:01,596 Speaker 2: solve it. I think that gives us at least a 707 00:36:01,596 --> 00:36:02,436 Speaker 2: good head start. 708 00:36:03,756 --> 00:36:06,756 Speaker 1: Despite what Dan says, I'm super grateful that psychologists like 709 00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:09,356 Speaker 1: him have helped me understand why I've always felt so 710 00:36:09,436 --> 00:36:12,356 Speaker 1: helpless in the face of the climate crisis. Talking to 711 00:36:12,476 --> 00:36:15,276 Speaker 1: Dan has encouraged me to up my game. I'll work 712 00:36:15,316 --> 00:36:17,956 Speaker 1: on my dumb worries about getting an EV, I'll pay 713 00:36:17,996 --> 00:36:20,756 Speaker 1: more attention to people who've adopted more greenways of living. 714 00:36:21,316 --> 00:36:24,396 Speaker 1: And oh yeah, I'm definitely going to vote. But I 715 00:36:24,476 --> 00:36:27,556 Speaker 1: also want to continue exploring other things psychology can teach 716 00:36:27,636 --> 00:36:30,996 Speaker 1: us about how to fight climate change more hopefully, and 717 00:36:31,076 --> 00:36:33,836 Speaker 1: so on our next episode of this special season, we'll 718 00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:36,356 Speaker 1: explore some new research showing there are ways to cut 719 00:36:36,396 --> 00:36:39,556 Speaker 1: our carbon footprints that have the unexpected benefit of making 720 00:36:39,676 --> 00:36:40,956 Speaker 1: us feel way happier. 721 00:36:41,356 --> 00:36:43,316 Speaker 4: Oh, I'd bike to work that day because it put 722 00:36:43,356 --> 00:36:45,236 Speaker 4: me in a good mood. But of course it's also 723 00:36:45,276 --> 00:36:48,276 Speaker 4: one of the most sustainable forms of transit. That started 724 00:36:48,356 --> 00:36:50,796 Speaker 4: kind of got like the fireworks going where I started thinking, 725 00:36:50,996 --> 00:36:53,836 Speaker 4: by focusing on climate change just as the sort of 726 00:36:53,876 --> 00:36:56,596 Speaker 4: harbinger of doom and gloom, they were actually missing out 727 00:36:56,636 --> 00:36:59,316 Speaker 4: on a way of tackling it that might be more 728 00:36:59,356 --> 00:37:00,396 Speaker 4: helpful for some people. 729 00:37:01,196 --> 00:37:04,116 Speaker 1: That's next time on the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor 730 00:37:04,196 --> 00:37:12,196 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos