WEBVTT - The Kitty Genovese Story 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.320 Hey, San Francisco, we're coming out to see you. We 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 got invited back to San Francisco Sketch Fest this year 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.200 and we are pretty excited because we are doing a 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.520 Sunday afternoon show for the first time, so considers a 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:20.079 football game. We're gonna be uh January Sunday at one pm, 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.880 and UH, get your tickets fast because they're definitely gonna 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.599 sell out. Just go to s F sketch Fest dot 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.880 com where you can google that junk and uh just 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.680 follow the ticket links and there's lots of great shows, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.559 so I would recommend just making a weekend out of it. 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:40.680 But check us out Sunday afternoon, January PM in San Francisco. 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.720 Can't wait to see everybody there. Welcome to Stuff You 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:53.760 Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:57.080 welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.680 Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry So this you Should Know 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:06.560 podcast True Crime Edition. Actually yeah, but so much more 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.680 than just a single crime agreed, a crime that echoed 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:16.040 throughout a city, throughout the world, throughout decades. And it's true, man, Like, 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:18.480 there are very few crimes you can point to that 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.920 had more of an impact than the murder of Kitty 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:27.200 GENEVESE agreed. Uh, and there are a lot of true 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.920 crime podcast out there. We are not trying to become one. No, 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.200 this is just something we do from time to time. 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.880 I had somebody on Facebook, Oh, don't get me started 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.880 on that on the hinter Kaife murders there, this is 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.600 so played, everyone's done this. Who didn't know about this? 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.600 A bunch of people were like, well, I haven't heard 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:53.000 about it, but most counts I had never heard about it. 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.040 I hadn't heard about it until like a year or 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:01.280 two ago. So oh, it's so played. Oh and then 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.760 of course later on all these people are like, man, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.600 what a jerk. He's like the the whole Uh. Well, 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.360 I'm sorry if anyone was offended. All I meant was 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.320 is this has been well covered. I think that it 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.280 has nothing to do with the way I said it. 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.639 The two thousand sixteen election has proven that. Um, if 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.839 you add if into your apology, it's not an actual apology. Yeah, 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.280 I'm sorry. If you're offended, is not an apology. That's 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.239 putting it back on the person. It's it's you, you, 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:35.800 you worm, your piece of garbage. Oh yeah, yeah, man, sorry, 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.880 Kitty Genevise and her family. I know, and you know what, 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.240 as I researched this and as I watched did you 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:46.200 watch The Witness the documentary recently on Netflix right now? 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:52.560 It is HBO documentary, And um, I was disturbed and 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.680 I'm glad it finally covered it in the documentary, but 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.120 I was disturbed that Kitty Genevise and we'll get to 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.799 her murder, but very quickly she was murdered and became 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:07.320 the symbol for um people not helping out right what 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.239 came to be known as bystander apathy or the bystander 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.120 effect that the more people who are around, the less 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.560 likely anyone is to help. Yeah, so she became such 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.880 a symbol that me never hear about Kitty Genevise and 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.280 who she was as a person. And that was one 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.200 great thing about that document and there are multiple great 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.160 things about that, but that it really talked about her 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.800 and showed her and revived her spirit, which I was 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.560 really looking for because even in researching online, it's hard 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.320 to get a lot of information. So um, some things, 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:45.840 some even contemporary articles still aren't mentioning that she was gay. Well, yeah, 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.560 her own brother who made the documentary didn't know that 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.640 she was gay. No, it's true, but it's it's been 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.520 out since I'm not sure when actually that came out. 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.720 It was just this year, okay, so it was fairly 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.280 new year. That was like in the last five years, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.560 maybe so. And honoring that, why don't we talk a 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:13.200 minute about Catherine genevese Kitty Yeah. Born in Brooklyn, uh, 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:19.600 to Vincent and Rene Leginovise Italian American parents. Um, and 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.120 it's weird, I don't see. Oh. Yeah, Rachel was her 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.280 mother's name. She was Rachel Petroley at first. So, um. 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.039 They lived in Brooklyn, and she was very well loved 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.960 in school. Yes, she was like the leader of her click. Yeah. 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.200 And she was apparently a lot of fun and a 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.600 good mimic of her teachers. And she was voted class 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.440 cut up in her senior year graduating class. And she 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.440 went to an all girls school and Prospect Heights, and 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:51.279 it it was just, by all accounts, this vivacious, fun loving, 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.200 really sweet sweet lady yeah or girl. At that point, 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.760 her little brother Bill who and ended up making the 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.120 being featured in the documentary, The witness was just in 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.960 love with her she was just amazing to him and 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.360 had a very special relationship. Yeah. I think she was 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.760 about thirteen years older than him. Yeah, quite a bit, 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.240 maybe twelve years older. Um, I had his sister like that, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.360 and like there's a very special relationship, none of that 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:23.160 sibling rivalry. Um, they're not old enough to be your mother. 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:28.080 That's just as it's a unique situation to be a 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.560 younger sibling and to be able to inherit like all 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.400 that worldly wisdom and they're they're going through all their 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.720 own things and their own struggles and their own travails. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.720 But to that thirteen year old younger brother, they know 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.880 everything and they're the coolest person walking the planet and 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.880 they're the kindest person walking the planet because they've lived 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.440 long enough to like figure out some of the major stuff. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:53.880 You know. Yeah, even my own sister is only six 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.360 years older, and we we very much had and still 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.520 have that relationship where uh and she my brother are 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.240 great now too. But you know, when you're two or 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:04.839 three years apart, there can be a little bit of 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.480 the knocking of heads. But by the time I came along, 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.080 I was like, you know, my sister was six, It 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:11.960 was perfect. I was a little baby doll for her right. 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.680 Um So, anyway, that was very much the relationship that 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.200 Kitty had with Bill, and it seemed like one of 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.480 the old older brothers always had a little bit of it, like, yeah, 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:25.440 she always liked him better. Yeah kind of attitude. It 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.159 seems seemed like everybody kind of knew like she liked 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.280 Bill the most. Yeah, which I kind of felt bad for. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.080 But that's just this family dynamics. Man. You know. The 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.120 thing is when whenever you do start to kind of 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.839 talk about somebody who's died, especially someone who's died violently 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:45.480 and young, it's easy to um canonized, you know. He 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:47.800 really put him up on a pedestal and forget their flaws. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.719 And of course I'm sure Kitty had tons of flaws, 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.360 but she didn't seem to have any from from what 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.800 I'm gathering, that were, you know, just terrible flaws or 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.240 that made her like a bad person. She seemed like 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:09.280 she was a like an overall above average great person. Yeah, agreed. So, um, 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.680 New York was getting too dangerous for her family. They 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.920 thought to have all these kids. Uh, So they moved 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.240 when she graduated high school to New Canaan, Connecticut. And 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.240 she said you know what, I'm staying here in New York. 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.040 I'm eighteen now. I love it here. Um. She got 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.080 married for a brief time, uh, to a guy was 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.880 his named Rocco. I don't remember his name, it's either 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:36.160 Rocky or Rocco. And Um. In the documentary, Bill tries 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:37.840 to get in touch with him. He's like, I really 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.000 because he found out she was gay and was like, 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:41.880 you know, we didn't even know this. I think Rocco 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.040 can help shed some light. And he very respectfully asked 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.880 for his own privacy. He said, my relationship with Kitty 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.520 will remain forever a mystery. Yeah, it's like, that's an 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.200 odd spot it was. I think he just didn't want to. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:00.960 I mean, if she was a and they were married 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.960 for a short time, he either didn't know and maybe 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.400 felt the fool or he did know and was maybe 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.000 trying to do right by her in some way. Either way, 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.120 he didn't want to talk about it. But Um. She 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.080 worked as a secretary for a little while. She was 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.120 a waitress for a little while. Eventually she was a 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.400 bar made bartender and then became bar manager at a 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:29.480 place in Hollis Queen's called EVS Eleventh Hour well, and 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.160 from all accounts, it was one of those wonderful neighborhood 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.560 bars where the people are in there getting sauce pretty 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.840 early in the days, and everyone knew everyone, and everyone 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.760 loved Kitty, and she helped take care of everybody, but 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.360 was very much an independent um kind of firecracker of 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.840 a woman. Drove a red fiat. Her dad used to 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.360 tease her about, like, when are you going to find 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.160 the right guy. She's like, I make more money than 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.040 any guy I would go out with. I don't need that, 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:03.760 which is I guess night t sixties for dadam gay 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:05.959 and I can't say it, but she did make pretty 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.440 good dough as the bar manager. Um. And then in 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:15.200 March ninete, she met a woman named Mary Anne Zlonko 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.960 at Swing Rendezvous. It was an underground lesbian bar in 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.440 the village, and they moved in together shortly thereafter. Yeh 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.000 and Kitty actually used to bring um Maryanne home with 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.560 her to visit, but her family was all like, well, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:35.160 they're just good friends and roommates. It's the sixties, the 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.720 early sixties. Yeah, And there's an audio interview with her 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.760 in that documentary that's really touching. She didn't want to 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.480 be on camera, but Bill was able to speak to 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.320 her and uh, I think, well, so compelling about this 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.880 documentary was that he was there was a search of 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:57.000 a man looking for closure. It's a harrowing, sometimes almost 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:02.200 unbearable to watch. Yeah, sir, I mean like he's at 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:07.280 odds with his family here there. Um he uh, he's 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.000 just just doing things where if you if you watch 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.120 it in the context of the documentary and you just 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.360 follow along the documentary, it all makes uttering complete sense. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.319 But then if you stop and remove yourself long enough 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.280 to be like, this is a documentary, which means this 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.400 guy really did this stuff and there was a camera 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.280 following him along while he was doing it, I was like, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.400 I I couldn't have done half of it, you know, 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.400 he really he just at one point he calls it 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.679 an obsession, but it's it's not. He doesn't come off 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:42.400 as obsessed, you know. All right, So let's detail the 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.400 crime and then we will take a break after that. 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.640 How does that sound? Yeah? Alright, So flash forward to 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.440 March thirteenth, nineteen sixty four. It's three fifteen in the 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:58.560 morning and Kitty genevese Is, as she often did, was 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.959 making her way home from work late at night as 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:05.680 a bar manager and was being trailed by a man, 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:11.080 a man by the name of Winston Moseley. Yes, who 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.959 was definitely the villain of this story, but is not 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:19.040 the only one that will turn out. So, um Kitty 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:23.960 was and at the time she was killed, and Winston 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.560 or killer was twenty nine, just turned twenty nine, I 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.680 think like a week or so before, And I think 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:34.319 he said, this is March nine. Yeah, he was married 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.400 with a couple of kids. Yeah, his wife, Elizabeth worked 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.319 the night shift. She was a hospital nurse, and um 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.000 Winston's mother stayed at home with the kids. So he 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.320 basically said, you know, on my own house. I've got 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.600 a great job operating computers. No one even knows what 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:53.319 I'm supposed to be doing with him yet, but I'm 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.520 making money doing it. Yeah, he's a smart guy, So 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.600 I'm gonna indulge myself. I'm gonna go out and stalk 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.240 women and murder them and my spare time, that's what 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.080 I'm gonna do. So that's what he was doing on 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.440 this night. He was cruising around looking for a woman 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:11.280 to um kill. Basically, Yeah, that was his direct quote 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.440 in questioning. Yeah, I was looking for a woman to kill. Yeah, 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.000 so he saw at I believe a red light, this 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.080 little red Fiat convertible caught his eye and there was 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.280 kitty driving. So he started a follower and she parked, 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.680 and she parked in the parking lot for the Long 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:33.280 Island Railway, which the parking lot went backed up to 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.480 the side of her apartment building, which is a two 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.720 story tutor job that had shops in the bottom and 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.439 apartments in the top. Right. Yeah, this was in Q 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.880 Gardens and Queens. So he followed her on foot. At 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:54.240 this point Um she sees him and knows that something 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:56.600 is going on. He has a knife in his hand, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.360 so she starts uh running. He catches up to her 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.920 by outside of a bookstore and stabs her twice in 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.000 the back right off the bat with this knife. And 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.960 she had been running um toward a bar that she 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.480 thought would be open, but it turned out apparently there 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.160 was a new manager and the new manager had closed 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.840 down early, so when she stabbed twice in the back. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.680 It's on this darkened street, but right across the street, 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:27.680 Austin Street, is a ten story apartment building with dozens 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.400 of windows looking out onto Austin Street. Where she's being 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.800 stabbed in the back, and she screamed, she cries out. 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.920 I think she said something like, oh God, he stabbed me, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.840 helped me, help me, is what they They said, basically, 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:46.920 definitively is what she screamed. And people who were witnesses 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.680 to this recounted that one guy said that he was 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.400 I think a ten or eleven year old kid who 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.200 was inside one of the apartments in the Mobray apartment building, 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.440 and that he was awoke and awakened from a d sleep. 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:02.680 The scream was so loud, he said it was the 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:08.400 loudest thing he's ever heard. So she screams, and a 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.680 man living in the Mobrie apartment buildings opens his window. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.840 What's his name, Yeah, Robert moser Um opened his window 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.640 and screamed out, hey, get out of there, what are 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:24.640 you doing? And uh, Mosley took off, took off, running away. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.000 He's very frequently misquoted as having said like, let that 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.440 girl alone, but even by his own words in his 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.000 own testimony, he said, hey, get out of there. Yeah, 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:40.120 at any rate, he scared him away. Uh So, in 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:45.600 between that time, about thirty minutes passes. Kitty Um makes 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:51.560 her way around to the vestibule of her own building. Right, Yeah, 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:57.200 and um goes inside the vestibule and uh, like you 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.720 think the horror is over for her. She could probably 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:05.880 survive these wounds. Um is in shock, I would imagine. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.640 And then Mosley went to his car, kind of checked 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.800 out the building, saw that some lights had gone on, 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.000 and reason to himself, no one's gonna do anything, puts 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.520 on a different hat and goes back, finds her in 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.600 the vestibule and finishes the job and the most horrific 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.320 ways you can imagine. Yeah, he uh, he stabbed her 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.720 at least twelve more times. They think at least she 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.320 was stabbed at least fourteen times. He said he doesn't 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.680 remember how many times he stabbed her. Um, but he 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.360 basically kept stabbing her until she stopped screaming. Um, she 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.240 was still alive. I saw that he attempted the raper. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.640 I've also seen that he raped her. Yeah. I'm not 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.200 sure which one's correct, but at one point, and this 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.840 is really important here, as he's stabbing her and she's 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:56.120 screaming in the vestibule, there's a staircase that leads directly 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.360 up to a door, and behind that door lived a 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.800 man named Carl Ross. And Carl Ross opened his door 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:06.280 and looked down one single flight of stairs at Winston 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:12.080 Mosley stabbing um kitty Genevese, who is bloody. There was 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.440 no confusing what was going on. And he closed the 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.320 door and he called his girlfriend, and his girlfriend said, 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.320 you don't get involved. I'm worried for you. Just just 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.360 leave it alone. It's none of your business. And he did. 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.520 He didn't do anything at least for a little while, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.040 all right. So that's a good place to break here, 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.360 and we're gonna come back and talk about who saw 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.600 and heard what and what they did about it right 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:50.440 after this, You know, Josh, Starting your own business can 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.880 be really difficult, but developing your online presence doesn't have 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.000 to be right right because Google and Squarespace have teamed 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.200 up to give small business owners what they need to 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.400 succeed on mine checkers, a custom domain, business email, and 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.239 a beautiful website all in one place. That's right. 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All right. 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:58.600 So at this point, um, Kitty Genevies is uh not 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:03.280 dead yet, but dying in the vestibule. Um, a woman 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:08.160 did come down and uh was with her. Her name 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.040 is Sophia Ferrar. She's still with us, and um, she 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.679 was a neighbor and friend of Kitty's. And so she 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.920 went down there and uh apparently was with her as 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.320 she passed away, tried to calm her down. Evidently did 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:27.439 calm her down, and likes to think that she at 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.280 least saw a friendly face and that she was being 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.880 cared for as she passed. Uh. The weird thing is 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.280 is that is not mentioned. I guess we gotta get 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.119 into the New York Times now. Yeah. So, so after 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.880 the murder um like the next day, the Times ran 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.760 four paragraphs on the Kitty Genovase murder. It was not 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.200 incredibly newsworthy at first because that year, there were six 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.800 d thirty six murders in New York City. Yeah, that 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.480 was just one of them, just one. But a couple 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.359 of weeks later, UM, the head the city editor of 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.840 the New York Times, a guy named A Rosenthal, who's 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.879 a legendary journalist, was having lunch with I believe, the 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.439 police commissioner of the NYPD. And the commissioner said, did 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.679 you hear about that Genevese murder? This one for the books. 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.880 Thirty eight people standing around watched the whole thing. Nobody 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.040 did it a thing about it. Now you've got a story. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:25.840 A Rosenthal, legendary journalist, is like, uh, thank you for that. 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.560 Here's my diners Club card. I have to go now 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.880 and get this story done. So he did. He assigned 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.680 it out to a guy. What was the original reporter's name, Um, 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.760 his name was Martin Gainsberg, and they wrote on the 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.560 front page. I shouldn't say they wrote it was definitely 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:46.840 all Gainsberger, but he was assigned and definitely under the 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.439 direction of A Rosenthal, like, this is this is the story. 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.680 Thirty eight people stood around and did nothing. Yeah, the 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.359 title of the article was thirty seven. It was thirty 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.840 seven at a time thirty seven who saw a murder 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:03.159 didn't call the police, And basically the entire article and 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:08.959 the entire narrative from that moment forward for decades was 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.160 a not about this woman at all. Hardly she became 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.960 a symbol be not necessarily even about the crime, but 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.800 about the crime of uh, these people who didn't the 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:24.320 crime of apathy for these thirty seven or thirty eight people. 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:29.359 But it was very much misconstrued in the New York Times, 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.440 to the point where in two thousand four they all 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:37.560 but wrote a retraction with new information. Um, because the 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.760 original article they said, like these people witnessed it. That 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:45.080 is not true. Um. Maybe only a couple of people 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.960 might have actually seen anything with their eyeballs. The other 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:55.080 thirty five or thirty six may have heard someone screaming, uh. 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.440 They might have thought it was a drunken couple in 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.719 their neighborhood coming home from a bar. Uh. There might 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.760 have been some apathy involved, for sure for some of them. 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.640 But to characterize this as thirty seven or thirty eight 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:12.600 people witnessed this horrific crime and literally shut their doors 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:17.800 and windows to it was not accurate at all, they said. Um, 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.119 they said specifically. Well, the way that they put it 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:26.159 was that there were The way the story read was 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.520 that thirty eight people had watched this murder which took place. 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.880 They misreported that there were three attacks and that the 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.040 man had been chased off twice and came back two 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.240 more times. Um, But that this whole thing had taken 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.040 place over thirty minutes, this long, prolonged attack, and that 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.479 thirty eight people had just been sitting there watching it, 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:50.080 doing nothing, And that is definitely a mischaracterization of what 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.560 had happened, Like you're saying, for the most part, people 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.520 were ear witnesses, not eyewitnesses. There are certainly not thirty 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.840 eight eyewitnesses, and most people weren't in a position to 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:04.560 do much, if anything about it, certainly physically. But I 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.880 don't know if you could call it like a retraction 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.919 because the point that A Rosenthal he never apologized for whatever. 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:16.720 Even in the documentary he's interviewed, um he and he's like, I, 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.840 this is great, I'm glad that it did what it did. Yeah. Sure. 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.720 His The point is still there that there was apathy 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:28.199 in in that there were two people who could have 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:33.520 done something and they didn't. But then from what the 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:37.479 Other witnesses said the scream was pretty clearly not a 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:41.520 purse snatching and not a couple fighting drunkenly, that it 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.600 was a violent crime being committed on this woman. And 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.840 people still didn't do anything. Yeah, they misreported. Um, possibly 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:55.040 that no one called police. Apparently perhaps up to three 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:58.960 people called the police, although police logs showed only one 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:01.880 call came in. Um. And it may be a case 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.000 of these people now telling themselves like I called the 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.880 cops that did something when they may not have. Uh, 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.360 they did not report at all that Ms Ferrar had 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.440 gone down to be with her. She was not mentioned ever. UM. 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:17.879 So I kind of went from feeling like, yeah, you 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.040 know this bystander effect it had good. It led to 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:25.600 the being created apparently in some ways, and people study 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.320 this in class and it raised awareness. So you know, 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:30.200 if they stretched it a little bit, then it had 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:34.600 a good effect. That's what Abe basically, that was his position. 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.160 That still is his position. But oh did he finally 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:42.159 passed away? Um? And then I finally came around and 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:45.159 be like, no, you know, the truth is what you 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:47.720 should print. And if you're a reporter and you run 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.160 a story, you should print the truth and not some 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:54.600 sensationalized version of it to sell newspapers. No, no, absolutely, 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:56.720 I agree with you, And I think the one thing 0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:00.280 that you can hang on a Rosenthal is that, Um, 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.600 that story was definitely fashioned in a manner to be 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:07.119 as sensational as possible, to shock and outrage the public 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:10.359 as much as possible. But I still think it's rooted 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:15.840 in in the basic fact that there was apathy involved 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:20.520 and that it possibly allowed Winston mostly to finish the 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:25.120 job that Kitty Jenneviez might have survived had somebody done 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:27.760 more than just sit up, look out the window and 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:30.760 go back to bed or not even bother to look 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.000 out the window. And like you said, Chuck, like this 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:36.800 had a lot of impact because this this story comes 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:40.560