1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Hey, San Francisco, we're coming out to see you. We 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: got invited back to San Francisco Sketch Fest this year 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: and we are pretty excited because we are doing a 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Sunday afternoon show for the first time, so considers a 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: football game. We're gonna be uh January Sunday at one pm, 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: and UH, get your tickets fast because they're definitely gonna 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: sell out. Just go to s F sketch Fest dot 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: com where you can google that junk and uh just 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: follow the ticket links and there's lots of great shows, 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: so I would recommend just making a weekend out of it. 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: But check us out Sunday afternoon, January PM in San Francisco. 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: Can't wait to see everybody there. Welcome to Stuff You 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry So this you Should Know 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: podcast True Crime Edition. Actually yeah, but so much more 17 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: than just a single crime agreed, a crime that echoed 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: throughout a city, throughout the world, throughout decades. And it's true, man, Like, 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: there are very few crimes you can point to that 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: had more of an impact than the murder of Kitty 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: GENEVESE agreed. Uh, and there are a lot of true 22 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: crime podcast out there. We are not trying to become one. No, 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: this is just something we do from time to time. 24 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: I had somebody on Facebook, Oh, don't get me started 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: on that on the hinter Kaife murders there, this is 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: so played, everyone's done this. Who didn't know about this? 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: A bunch of people were like, well, I haven't heard 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: about it, but most counts I had never heard about it. 29 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: I hadn't heard about it until like a year or 30 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: two ago. So oh, it's so played. Oh and then 31 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: of course later on all these people are like, man, 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: what a jerk. He's like the the whole Uh. Well, 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: I'm sorry if anyone was offended. All I meant was 34 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: is this has been well covered. I think that it 35 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the way I said it. 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: The two thousand sixteen election has proven that. Um, if 37 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 1: you add if into your apology, it's not an actual apology. Yeah, 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. If you're offended, is not an apology. That's 39 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: putting it back on the person. It's it's you, you, 40 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: you worm, your piece of garbage. Oh yeah, yeah, man, sorry, 41 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: Kitty Genevise and her family. I know, and you know what, 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: as I researched this and as I watched did you 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: watch The Witness the documentary recently on Netflix right now? 44 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: It is HBO documentary, And um, I was disturbed and 45 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: I'm glad it finally covered it in the documentary, but 46 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: I was disturbed that Kitty Genevise and we'll get to 47 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: her murder, but very quickly she was murdered and became 48 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: the symbol for um people not helping out right what 49 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: came to be known as bystander apathy or the bystander 50 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: effect that the more people who are around, the less 51 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: likely anyone is to help. Yeah, so she became such 52 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: a symbol that me never hear about Kitty Genevise and 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: who she was as a person. And that was one 54 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: great thing about that document and there are multiple great 55 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: things about that, but that it really talked about her 56 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: and showed her and revived her spirit, which I was 57 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: really looking for because even in researching online, it's hard 58 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: to get a lot of information. So um, some things, 59 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: some even contemporary articles still aren't mentioning that she was gay. Well, yeah, 60 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: her own brother who made the documentary didn't know that 61 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: she was gay. No, it's true, but it's it's been 62 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: out since I'm not sure when actually that came out. 63 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: It was just this year, okay, so it was fairly 64 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: new year. That was like in the last five years, 65 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: maybe so. And honoring that, why don't we talk a 66 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: minute about Catherine genevese Kitty Yeah. Born in Brooklyn, uh, 67 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: to Vincent and Rene Leginovise Italian American parents. Um, and 68 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: it's weird, I don't see. Oh. Yeah, Rachel was her 69 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: mother's name. She was Rachel Petroley at first. So, um. 70 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: They lived in Brooklyn, and she was very well loved 71 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: in school. Yes, she was like the leader of her click. Yeah. 72 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: And she was apparently a lot of fun and a 73 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: good mimic of her teachers. And she was voted class 74 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: cut up in her senior year graduating class. And she 75 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: went to an all girls school and Prospect Heights, and 76 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: it it was just, by all accounts, this vivacious, fun loving, 77 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: really sweet sweet lady yeah or girl. At that point, 78 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: her little brother Bill who and ended up making the 79 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: being featured in the documentary, The witness was just in 80 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: love with her she was just amazing to him and 81 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: had a very special relationship. Yeah. I think she was 82 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: about thirteen years older than him. Yeah, quite a bit, 83 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: maybe twelve years older. Um, I had his sister like that, 84 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: and like there's a very special relationship, none of that 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: sibling rivalry. Um, they're not old enough to be your mother. 86 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: That's just as it's a unique situation to be a 87 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: younger sibling and to be able to inherit like all 88 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: that worldly wisdom and they're they're going through all their 89 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: own things and their own struggles and their own travails. 90 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: But to that thirteen year old younger brother, they know 91 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: everything and they're the coolest person walking the planet and 92 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: they're the kindest person walking the planet because they've lived 93 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: long enough to like figure out some of the major stuff. 94 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, even my own sister is only six 95 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: years older, and we we very much had and still 96 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: have that relationship where uh and she my brother are 97 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: great now too. But you know, when you're two or 98 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: three years apart, there can be a little bit of 99 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: the knocking of heads. But by the time I came along, 100 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, my sister was six, It 101 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: was perfect. I was a little baby doll for her right. 102 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: Um So, anyway, that was very much the relationship that 103 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: Kitty had with Bill, and it seemed like one of 104 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: the old older brothers always had a little bit of it, like, yeah, 105 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: she always liked him better. Yeah kind of attitude. It 106 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: seems seemed like everybody kind of knew like she liked 107 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: Bill the most. Yeah, which I kind of felt bad for. 108 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: But that's just this family dynamics. Man. You know. The 109 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: thing is when whenever you do start to kind of 110 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: talk about somebody who's died, especially someone who's died violently 111 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: and young, it's easy to um canonized, you know. He 112 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: really put him up on a pedestal and forget their flaws. 113 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: And of course I'm sure Kitty had tons of flaws, 114 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: but she didn't seem to have any from from what 115 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: I'm gathering, that were, you know, just terrible flaws or 116 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: that made her like a bad person. She seemed like 117 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: she was a like an overall above average great person. Yeah, agreed. So, um, 118 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: New York was getting too dangerous for her family. They 119 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: thought to have all these kids. Uh, So they moved 120 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: when she graduated high school to New Canaan, Connecticut. And 121 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: she said you know what, I'm staying here in New York. 122 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm eighteen now. I love it here. Um. She got 123 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: married for a brief time, uh, to a guy was 124 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: his named Rocco. I don't remember his name, it's either 125 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: Rocky or Rocco. And Um. In the documentary, Bill tries 126 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: to get in touch with him. He's like, I really 127 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: because he found out she was gay and was like, 128 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, we didn't even know this. I think Rocco 129 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: can help shed some light. And he very respectfully asked 130 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: for his own privacy. He said, my relationship with Kitty 131 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: will remain forever a mystery. Yeah, it's like, that's an 132 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: odd spot it was. I think he just didn't want to. 133 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if she was a and they were married 134 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: for a short time, he either didn't know and maybe 135 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: felt the fool or he did know and was maybe 136 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: trying to do right by her in some way. Either way, 137 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: he didn't want to talk about it. But Um. She 138 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: worked as a secretary for a little while. She was 139 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: a waitress for a little while. Eventually she was a 140 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: bar made bartender and then became bar manager at a 141 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: place in Hollis Queen's called EVS Eleventh Hour well, and 142 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: from all accounts, it was one of those wonderful neighborhood 143 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: bars where the people are in there getting sauce pretty 144 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: early in the days, and everyone knew everyone, and everyone 145 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: loved Kitty, and she helped take care of everybody, but 146 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: was very much an independent um kind of firecracker of 147 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: a woman. Drove a red fiat. Her dad used to 148 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: tease her about, like, when are you going to find 149 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: the right guy. She's like, I make more money than 150 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: any guy I would go out with. I don't need that, 151 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: which is I guess night t sixties for dadam gay 152 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: and I can't say it, but she did make pretty 153 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: good dough as the bar manager. Um. And then in 154 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: March ninete, she met a woman named Mary Anne Zlonko 155 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: at Swing Rendezvous. It was an underground lesbian bar in 156 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: the village, and they moved in together shortly thereafter. Yeh 157 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: and Kitty actually used to bring um Maryanne home with 158 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: her to visit, but her family was all like, well, 159 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: they're just good friends and roommates. It's the sixties, the 160 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: early sixties. Yeah, And there's an audio interview with her 161 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: in that documentary that's really touching. She didn't want to 162 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: be on camera, but Bill was able to speak to 163 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: her and uh, I think, well, so compelling about this 164 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: documentary was that he was there was a search of 165 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: a man looking for closure. It's a harrowing, sometimes almost 166 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: unbearable to watch. Yeah, sir, I mean like he's at 167 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: odds with his family here there. Um he uh, he's 168 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: just just doing things where if you if you watch 169 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: it in the context of the documentary and you just 170 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: follow along the documentary, it all makes uttering complete sense. 171 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: But then if you stop and remove yourself long enough 172 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: to be like, this is a documentary, which means this 173 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: guy really did this stuff and there was a camera 174 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: following him along while he was doing it, I was like, 175 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: I I couldn't have done half of it, you know, 176 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: he really he just at one point he calls it 177 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: an obsession, but it's it's not. He doesn't come off 178 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: as obsessed, you know. All right, So let's detail the 179 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: crime and then we will take a break after that. 180 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: How does that sound? Yeah? Alright, So flash forward to 181 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: March thirteenth, nineteen sixty four. It's three fifteen in the 182 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: morning and Kitty genevese Is, as she often did, was 183 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: making her way home from work late at night as 184 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: a bar manager and was being trailed by a man, 185 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: a man by the name of Winston Moseley. Yes, who 186 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: was definitely the villain of this story, but is not 187 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: the only one that will turn out. So, um Kitty 188 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: was and at the time she was killed, and Winston 189 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: or killer was twenty nine, just turned twenty nine, I 190 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: think like a week or so before, And I think 191 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: he said, this is March nine. Yeah, he was married 192 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: with a couple of kids. Yeah, his wife, Elizabeth worked 193 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: the night shift. She was a hospital nurse, and um 194 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: Winston's mother stayed at home with the kids. So he 195 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: basically said, you know, on my own house. I've got 196 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: a great job operating computers. No one even knows what 197 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be doing with him yet, but I'm 198 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: making money doing it. Yeah, he's a smart guy, So 199 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna indulge myself. I'm gonna go out and stalk 200 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: women and murder them and my spare time, that's what 201 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. So that's what he was doing on 202 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: this night. He was cruising around looking for a woman 203 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: to um kill. Basically, Yeah, that was his direct quote 204 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: in questioning. Yeah, I was looking for a woman to kill. Yeah, 205 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: so he saw at I believe a red light, this 206 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: little red Fiat convertible caught his eye and there was 207 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: kitty driving. So he started a follower and she parked, 208 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: and she parked in the parking lot for the Long 209 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: Island Railway, which the parking lot went backed up to 210 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: the side of her apartment building, which is a two 211 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: story tutor job that had shops in the bottom and 212 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: apartments in the top. Right. Yeah, this was in Q 213 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: Gardens and Queens. So he followed her on foot. At 214 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: this point Um she sees him and knows that something 215 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: is going on. He has a knife in his hand, 216 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: so she starts uh running. He catches up to her 217 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: by outside of a bookstore and stabs her twice in 218 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: the back right off the bat with this knife. And 219 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: she had been running um toward a bar that she 220 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: thought would be open, but it turned out apparently there 221 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: was a new manager and the new manager had closed 222 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: down early, so when she stabbed twice in the back. 223 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: It's on this darkened street, but right across the street, 224 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: Austin Street, is a ten story apartment building with dozens 225 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: of windows looking out onto Austin Street. Where she's being 226 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: stabbed in the back, and she screamed, she cries out. 227 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: I think she said something like, oh God, he stabbed me, 228 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: helped me, help me, is what they They said, basically, 229 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: definitively is what she screamed. And people who were witnesses 230 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: to this recounted that one guy said that he was 231 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: I think a ten or eleven year old kid who 232 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: was inside one of the apartments in the Mobray apartment building, 233 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: and that he was awoke and awakened from a d sleep. 234 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: The scream was so loud, he said it was the 235 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: loudest thing he's ever heard. So she screams, and a 236 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: man living in the Mobrie apartment buildings opens his window. 237 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: What's his name, Yeah, Robert moser Um opened his window 238 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: and screamed out, hey, get out of there, what are 239 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: you doing? And uh, Mosley took off, took off, running away. 240 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: He's very frequently misquoted as having said like, let that 241 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: girl alone, but even by his own words in his 242 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: own testimony, he said, hey, get out of there. Yeah, 243 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: at any rate, he scared him away. Uh So, in 244 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: between that time, about thirty minutes passes. Kitty Um makes 245 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: her way around to the vestibule of her own building. Right, Yeah, 246 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: and um goes inside the vestibule and uh, like you 247 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: think the horror is over for her. She could probably 248 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: survive these wounds. Um is in shock, I would imagine. 249 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: And then Mosley went to his car, kind of checked 250 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: out the building, saw that some lights had gone on, 251 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: and reason to himself, no one's gonna do anything, puts 252 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: on a different hat and goes back, finds her in 253 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: the vestibule and finishes the job and the most horrific 254 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: ways you can imagine. Yeah, he uh, he stabbed her 255 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: at least twelve more times. They think at least she 256 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: was stabbed at least fourteen times. He said he doesn't 257 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: remember how many times he stabbed her. Um, but he 258 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: basically kept stabbing her until she stopped screaming. Um, she 259 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: was still alive. I saw that he attempted the raper. 260 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: I've also seen that he raped her. Yeah. I'm not 261 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: sure which one's correct, but at one point, and this 262 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: is really important here, as he's stabbing her and she's 263 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: screaming in the vestibule, there's a staircase that leads directly 264 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: up to a door, and behind that door lived a 265 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: man named Carl Ross. And Carl Ross opened his door 266 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: and looked down one single flight of stairs at Winston 267 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: Mosley stabbing um kitty Genevese, who is bloody. There was 268 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: no confusing what was going on. And he closed the 269 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: door and he called his girlfriend, and his girlfriend said, 270 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: you don't get involved. I'm worried for you. Just just 271 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: leave it alone. It's none of your business. And he did. 272 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: He didn't do anything at least for a little while, 273 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: all right. So that's a good place to break here, 274 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: and we're gonna come back and talk about who saw 275 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: and heard what and what they did about it right 276 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: after this, You know, Josh, Starting your own business can 277 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: be really difficult, but developing your online presence doesn't have 278 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: to be right right because Google and Squarespace have teamed 279 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: up to give small business owners what they need to 280 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: succeed on mine checkers, a custom domain, business email, and 281 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,239 Speaker 1: a beautiful website all in one place. That's right. 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Make it professional, make it beautiful. All right. 292 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: So at this point, um, Kitty Genevies is uh not 293 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: dead yet, but dying in the vestibule. Um, a woman 294 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: did come down and uh was with her. Her name 295 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: is Sophia Ferrar. She's still with us, and um, she 296 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: was a neighbor and friend of Kitty's. And so she 297 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: went down there and uh apparently was with her as 298 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: she passed away, tried to calm her down. Evidently did 299 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 1: calm her down, and likes to think that she at 300 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: least saw a friendly face and that she was being 301 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: cared for as she passed. Uh. The weird thing is 302 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: is that is not mentioned. I guess we gotta get 303 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: into the New York Times now. Yeah. So, so after 304 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: the murder um like the next day, the Times ran 305 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: four paragraphs on the Kitty Genovase murder. It was not 306 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: incredibly newsworthy at first because that year, there were six 307 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: d thirty six murders in New York City. Yeah, that 308 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: was just one of them, just one. But a couple 309 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: of weeks later, UM, the head the city editor of 310 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: the New York Times, a guy named A Rosenthal, who's 311 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: a legendary journalist, was having lunch with I believe, the 312 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: police commissioner of the NYPD. And the commissioner said, did 313 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: you hear about that Genevese murder? This one for the books. 314 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: Thirty eight people standing around watched the whole thing. Nobody 315 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: did it a thing about it. Now you've got a story. 316 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: A Rosenthal, legendary journalist, is like, uh, thank you for that. 317 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: Here's my diners Club card. I have to go now 318 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: and get this story done. So he did. He assigned 319 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: it out to a guy. What was the original reporter's name, Um, 320 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: his name was Martin Gainsberg, and they wrote on the 321 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: front page. I shouldn't say they wrote it was definitely 322 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: all Gainsberger, but he was assigned and definitely under the 323 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: direction of A Rosenthal, like, this is this is the story. 324 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: Thirty eight people stood around and did nothing. Yeah, the 325 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: title of the article was thirty seven. It was thirty 326 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: seven at a time thirty seven who saw a murder 327 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: didn't call the police, And basically the entire article and 328 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 1: the entire narrative from that moment forward for decades was 329 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: a not about this woman at all. Hardly she became 330 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: a symbol be not necessarily even about the crime, but 331 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: about the crime of uh, these people who didn't the 332 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: crime of apathy for these thirty seven or thirty eight people. 333 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: But it was very much misconstrued in the New York Times, 334 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: to the point where in two thousand four they all 335 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: but wrote a retraction with new information. Um, because the 336 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: original article they said, like these people witnessed it. That 337 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: is not true. Um. Maybe only a couple of people 338 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: might have actually seen anything with their eyeballs. The other 339 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: thirty five or thirty six may have heard someone screaming, uh. 340 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: They might have thought it was a drunken couple in 341 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: their neighborhood coming home from a bar. Uh. There might 342 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: have been some apathy involved, for sure for some of them. 343 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: But to characterize this as thirty seven or thirty eight 344 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: people witnessed this horrific crime and literally shut their doors 345 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: and windows to it was not accurate at all, they said. Um, 346 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: they said specifically. Well, the way that they put it 347 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: was that there were The way the story read was 348 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: that thirty eight people had watched this murder which took place. 349 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: They misreported that there were three attacks and that the 350 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: man had been chased off twice and came back two 351 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: more times. Um, But that this whole thing had taken 352 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: place over thirty minutes, this long, prolonged attack, and that 353 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 1: thirty eight people had just been sitting there watching it, 354 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: doing nothing, And that is definitely a mischaracterization of what 355 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: had happened, Like you're saying, for the most part, people 356 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: were ear witnesses, not eyewitnesses. There are certainly not thirty 357 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: eight eyewitnesses, and most people weren't in a position to 358 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: do much, if anything about it, certainly physically. But I 359 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: don't know if you could call it like a retraction 360 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: because the point that A Rosenthal he never apologized for whatever. 361 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: Even in the documentary he's interviewed, um he and he's like, I, 362 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: this is great, I'm glad that it did what it did. Yeah. Sure. 363 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: His The point is still there that there was apathy 364 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: in in that there were two people who could have 365 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: done something and they didn't. But then from what the 366 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,479 Speaker 1: Other witnesses said the scream was pretty clearly not a 367 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: purse snatching and not a couple fighting drunkenly, that it 368 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: was a violent crime being committed on this woman. And 369 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: people still didn't do anything. Yeah, they misreported. Um, possibly 370 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: that no one called police. Apparently perhaps up to three 371 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: people called the police, although police logs showed only one 372 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: call came in. Um. And it may be a case 373 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: of these people now telling themselves like I called the 374 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: cops that did something when they may not have. Uh, 375 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: they did not report at all that Ms Ferrar had 376 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: gone down to be with her. She was not mentioned ever. UM. 377 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: So I kind of went from feeling like, yeah, you 378 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: know this bystander effect it had good. It led to 379 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: the being created apparently in some ways, and people study 380 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: this in class and it raised awareness. So you know, 381 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: if they stretched it a little bit, then it had 382 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: a good effect. That's what Abe basically, that was his position. 383 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: That still is his position. But oh did he finally 384 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: passed away? Um? And then I finally came around and 385 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: be like, no, you know, the truth is what you 386 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: should print. And if you're a reporter and you run 387 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: a story, you should print the truth and not some 388 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: sensationalized version of it to sell newspapers. No, no, absolutely, 389 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: I agree with you, And I think the one thing 390 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: that you can hang on a Rosenthal is that, Um, 391 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: that story was definitely fashioned in a manner to be 392 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: as sensational as possible, to shock and outrage the public 393 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: as much as possible. But I still think it's rooted 394 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: in in the basic fact that there was apathy involved 395 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: and that it possibly allowed Winston mostly to finish the 396 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: job that Kitty Jenneviez might have survived had somebody done 397 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: more than just sit up, look out the window and 398 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: go back to bed or not even bother to look 399 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: out the window. And like you said, Chuck, like this 400 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: had a lot of impact because this this story comes 401 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: out in nine and for forty years. It wasn't until 402 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: two thousand four that the time saw fit to like 403 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: go back and really reinvestigate, and they did. There was 404 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: a great, um, great article called Kitty four years later, 405 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: I think, um, and and the author goes through and 406 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: reinvestigates the case and really sets a lot of facts straight. Um. 407 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: But within that forty year period, the effects that this 408 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: murder had were just sweeping. It led to the establishment 409 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: of nine on one. It's a big one and it 410 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: it created this whole field of psychology that looks into 411 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: the psychology of crowds. You know, why we would just 412 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: stand around? What is this diffusion of responsibility? None of 413 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: that understanding existed until the Kidty Geneviez murder. Yeah, and weirdly, 414 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: why is someone Why is a solo witness more apt 415 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: to act than a group of people? One thing I 416 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: saw is that is called social influence, and that we 417 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: take our cues from others. So if inaction is basically 418 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: what is on the table right, then we're going to 419 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: be inactive as well. If people are starting to move 420 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: toward it, towards the problem, we'll probably join in too. 421 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: I could see that, or people thinking like either I'm 422 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: not someone else's better equipped to deal with this than me, 423 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: or I feel like someone else will do this so 424 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: I don't have to. Yeah, a lot goes into play. 425 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: It's pretty interesting. One of the less productive things that 426 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: came out of it, though, is this idea that when 427 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: you live in a city, in a big city, you 428 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: put enough people together, everybody stops caring about anybody else. 429 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: They're all out for number one and Q gardens became 430 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: the center of this or just such a symbolic example 431 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: of of urban care uncaring, I guess, and Kitty Jona 432 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: Viz became a symbol of of that as well. And 433 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: they need to do something to act out um, to 434 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: help other people when you see them need help. Alright, 435 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: So let's take another quick break here and we're going 436 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: to get back into what happened to uh Mr Mosley 437 00:26:47,200 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: and the further effects of this crime after this. So 438 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: a week after this murder, uh Mosley was breaking into 439 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: a house. He's not a good guy, No, he was 440 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: a terrible guy. He was um beyond being a sociopath 441 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: and a psychotic, was of just a burglar and he 442 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: would he was just straight up robbing a house one 443 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: day of a television and one of the neighbors saw 444 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: this called the cops. Cops came and arrested him. No, no, no, no, 445 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: that's not true. What the neighbor. Here's the thing, this 446 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: is the great ironic twist of the Kittie Jane v story. 447 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: He went to a different neighborhood. He was robbing a 448 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: house and the neighbors said, hey, what are you doing? 449 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: And he started to run from the house. The neighbor 450 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: chased him and tackled him and held him until the 451 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: cops came. Oh yeah, he called that's how he went 452 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: down intervention. Yeah yeah, yeah, but ampathy intervention a week later. Yes, okay, 453 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: So at any rate, he calls the cops, he gets arrested, 454 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: and very like, uh, matter of factly says that he 455 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: killed Kitty Genevise. And not only that, but he killed 456 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: supposedly two other women, a woman named Barbara Craylick. Uh. 457 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: Actually she was a girl, she's only fifteen, and then 458 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: a woman named Annie Mae Johnson. And apparently both of 459 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: them had been sexually assaulted. And he was never tried 460 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: for those But um he did plead not guilty by 461 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: reason of insanity, which did not work well. Sentenced to death, 462 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: and by luck of timing, was able to appeal. Uh. 463 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: And the death penalty had gone away from most crimes 464 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: in that time period, and he um was resentenced to 465 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: life in prison. Yes, supposedly the prosecution had withheld some 466 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: evidence about his mental state during his sentencing, so he 467 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: was able to get it reduced. So he was hanging 468 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: out during his time. Um, and he was in attica, 469 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: I believe and he had injured himself and was being 470 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: taken to the hospital, and on the way the way there, 471 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: he got the gun away from the guard who was 472 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: escorting him and took off and for I think five days, 473 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: he basically just the city of Buffalo was in mortal 474 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: fear of the fact that the guy who murdered Kitty 475 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: Geneviez was now on the loose in their town. And 476 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: they were afraid, rightfully, so he raped one woman. When 477 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: the cops closed in on him, he got ahold of 478 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: five people and held him hostage in a standoff that 479 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: lasted for a little while with the FBI before they 480 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: finally got to him. Um, he was bad dude. So 481 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: they sent him back to prison and uh, they said, 482 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: you're not getting out here ever. Yeah, he was later 483 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: a part of the Attica prison riots as well. And Um, 484 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: the one lady that he killed, he burned her alive, 485 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: like the family was upstairs, and he broke into her house, 486 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: raped her, killed her, and burned her alive in the 487 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: home and the house went up in flames. So it 488 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: sounded like he had no He sounded like a true sociopath, 489 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: like he had no Um, not, there's ever reason for 490 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: killing someone, but it was always just at random because 491 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: he wanted to do that. That's a lot what it 492 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 1: sounds like. It was a self indulgence. So in the documentary, 493 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: UM very powerful scene where the son I'm sorry, the 494 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: little brother of Kitty, who was told through his eyes, 495 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: interviews and sits down with one of the sons of 496 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: Mosley and it's just like, I mean, you cut the 497 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: tension with a knife. Obviously, it's just so like fraught 498 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: with tension, and um he had told his son that 499 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: she was yelling racial lers at him. He also said 500 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: that he was just a getaway driver um for some 501 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: mobster and the Genevese family was related to the crime 502 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: mob family, the Genevese family and none of this stuff 503 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: is true. And the brother was just like a no, 504 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: We're not related to that family at all. We have 505 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: nothing to do with that. And he just gives him 506 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 1: a look when he talks about the racial slurs, like, 507 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: come on, man, that's not what happened. So it was 508 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: a really really powerful scene of these two guys kind 509 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: of working it out in a way. I didn't see 510 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: them working anything out, oh see, which made it even 511 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: worse for me. I thought there was some between them. 512 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: They kind of came to a nice, nicer place than 513 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: where they started. Did not catch that at all. Maybe 514 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: you just skip forward or something. Maybe I was like, 515 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: I can't take this. Well. The sun was saying, like, 516 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's you know, we need to 517 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: we need to move you know. The son of was 518 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: saying that they needed to move on from all this, 519 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: and then the brother was saying, I definitely don't you 520 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: know the sins of the father and the sins of 521 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: the sons. Yeah, he said that, so, um, you know, 522 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: I felt I felt like they were better off than 523 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: when they started for having that conversation. I honestly did 524 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: not catch that well regardless. Um Winston Mosley after I 525 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: guess after his second his first escape, the second little 526 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: crime spree in Buffalo, um he when he was captured, 527 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: he he apparently reformed himself. Where he claimed to be reformed. 528 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: He got a degree in prison. Um. He wrote an 529 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: editorial that The New York Times published where he basically said, 530 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm a changed man. And everybody said, look at that. 531 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: It's just about the time your first parole hearing is 532 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: coming up. This is great timing. Uh. He went up 533 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: before the parole board and they said no. Uh. He 534 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: went up before the parole board again, they said no. 535 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: He went up eighteen times. Uh when eighteen times the 536 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: parole board said no. Yeah. I think the last one 537 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: was just a couple of years before he died. But 538 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: he died in two dozen sixteen, A d one in prison. Yeah, 539 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: and he Uh, the brother tried to get an interview 540 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: with him, and he said no, that he didn't want 541 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: to be exploited anymore. And you could just feel this 542 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: brother's pain of like really wanting to try and to 543 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: talk him into it again. Um. And that basically the 544 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: people that that were the go between like, yeah, you know, 545 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: you can try, we can't keep you, but uh, he's 546 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: not gonna change his mind. Right. So he never got 547 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: that interview. Uh, but I feel like he got. I 548 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: don't think he was looking for answers. I mean in 549 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: the documentary, he went back to many of these apartment 550 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: windows just to look at what their vantage point might 551 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: have been. He got an actress to recreate, um, what 552 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: the screaming would have sounded like, uh from down there 553 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: on the street, which was very chilling scene. And I 554 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: don't know that he was looking for like you said 555 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: he was at odds with his family. Of times you 556 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: could tell the one little brother was like, man, this 557 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: is hard on all of us, so you need to stop. UM. 558 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: But I don't think he was necessarily looking for the 559 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: closure in that I want to find out for sure 560 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: if these people could have stopped it. I think the 561 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: closure comes more in the journey of learning about his 562 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: sister and learning as much as he can about this case. 563 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: It's really interesting. It was very interesting, um the two 564 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: four Times article and then now this, this documentary has 565 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: definitely exonerated Q Gardens as a whole. They said, now 566 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: there's there's way more nuance to this, there's way more UM. 567 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: But two things to people that have um not been exonerated. 568 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: Our guy named Joseph Fink and a guy named Carl Ross. 569 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: Carl Ross was the guy who lived at the top 570 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: of the vestibule who opened his door. The ironic thing 571 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 1: about Carl Ross is, if you notice it says thirty 572 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: eight witnesses, thirty seven did nothing. The thirty that that 573 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: that last thirty eight witness that the Times was referring 574 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: to was Carl Ross. They said, he's the one who 575 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: called the police. He called the police, like long after 576 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: Kitty Genovese was dead. Yeah, so he was, Actually he 577 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: was actually, I don't want to say celebrated or whatever, 578 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: but he was exonerated initially by this Times article when 579 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: it turns out that he was one of the two 580 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: people who could have done something and didn't. The other 581 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: one was Joseph Fink, who saw the initial attack from 582 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: his vantage point in the elevator. He ran the elevator 583 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: in the Mowbray apartments across the street, and he um 584 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: apparently saw what was happening and left his his elevator 585 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: and went to bed and that was that. But again, 586 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: it seems like the overall feeling is okay. Other than 587 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: those two guys, everybody else is fine. I just disagree 588 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: with that. I think that there's a lot more that 589 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: people could have done that didn't, And I don't think 590 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: it's a I just don't think that everybody's off the 591 00:35:53,800 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: hook for that. Yep, you got anything else? No, man. Uh. 592 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: If you want to know more about Kitty Genevese, just 593 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: search the Internet. There's a lot about her, but be 594 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: careful what you read because it's all over the place. Frankly. Uh. 595 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: And since I said internet, It's time for a listener mail, 596 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: uh fish fraud follow up. Hey, guys, recently began began 597 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: a job as a marine fisheries observer for the Department 598 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: of Fishing, Game and the Bearing Sea, and just listen 599 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: to your fish fraud episode. Each season, a percentage of 600 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: vessels fish fishing here at least are randomly selected have 601 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: an observer on board to monitor the operations and buy 602 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: catch that come up in their pots or nets. The 603 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: presence of an observer is admittedly a bit of a 604 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: drag for this fisherman. We have to put up with 605 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: us skinny nerds ll L E type that uh. We 606 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: are generally a great deterrent of any mischief at sea. 607 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: But from what I have seen, most of the fishermen 608 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: are real, shar honest folks who know what they're doing. 609 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,919 Speaker 1: Of course, this is only a small portion of all 610 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: the vessels on the water. Isn't going to solve that 611 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: problem by any means, But what you'd like to know 612 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: that there is some coverage on fishing, fishing, vessels and processors. 613 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for all the laughs, my dudes. That is from 614 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: Kevin h Alexandra Witz in Olympia, Washington. It's a lot. 615 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: Kevin had no idea, did you that these people did that? 616 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: But there's basically like a sky Marshall program fighting fish 617 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 1: fraud on the high seas. Yeah, we talked about that, 618 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: we did. Yeah, I don't remember that. Yeah, we were 619 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: just like, it's just so infrequent and random that you know, 620 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: what's what good is it doing? And it sounds like 621 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: he agrees in some ways, but still have fun out 622 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: there on the high seas. Don't get seasick. Uh. If 623 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with this, like Kevin did, 624 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: you can tweet to us that that's y s K podcast. 625 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash stuff 626 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: you Should Know, Uh, you can send us any all 627 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: the Stuff podcast at houstuffworks dot com and there's always 628 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 1: join us ter home on the web. Stuff you Should 629 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: Know dot Com from all listen thousands of other topics 630 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: is a house toff works dot com