Speaker 1: I think your story is so interesting of like where
Speaker 1: you grew up, right, how you grew up, troubled youth, arms, dealer, euphoria,
Speaker 1: you know, right? What up? Y'all? At your boy? keV
Speaker 1: on stage, Welcome to Not My Best Moment, a podcast
Speaker 1: where I talk to artists, athletes, entertainers, friends of minds
Speaker 1: about their successes and their failures, based on my New
Speaker 1: York Times best selling book Successful Failure by me Kevin Fredericks. Today,
Speaker 1: we have a very special guest. We're in my creator bag. Guys,
Speaker 1: we stepped away from the athletes and we're focusing on
Speaker 1: the creators because I am a creator and the creators
Speaker 1: are my community and I want to highlight them on
Speaker 1: this podcast a little bit more. And we're continuing that
Speaker 1: with Shan Tail Smith. Now. You may know her from Survivor.
Speaker 1: You may know her from being an entrepreneur. You may
Speaker 1: know her as a content creators, which is how I
Speaker 1: found out about her. You may know her soon from
Speaker 1: her work on The Airport. She was one of the
Speaker 1: new cast members on the Airport, which will be airing
Speaker 1: on TV in November. She was also a writer, a
Speaker 1: very brilliant writer for the show, as well, one of
Speaker 1: my favorites that contributed to the show. I found out
Speaker 1: about her on social media. She is very funny, her
Speaker 1: her husband, her dog. Is that your dog or just
Speaker 1: videos with a dogg Okay, please welcome to the show,
Speaker 1: Shantel Smith.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Clap back home too. Just because you're driving or working
Speaker 1: or cleaning up. Don't think you ain't got to clap.
Speaker 1: And I'll know if you clapped or not. And don't
Speaker 1: be selfish. We can feel h Chntel. I want to
Speaker 1: dive right in. Okay. I know people might want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about survivor and we may get to that.
Speaker 1: But over our brief months long friendship, somewhere along the way,
Speaker 1: I found out that you were a pastor and you
Speaker 1: went to would you call it seminary? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I went to seminary for like three years.
Speaker 1: Okay, spent three years in seminary. You were pastoring at
Speaker 1: a high level, and now you are completely unchurched. What happened?
Speaker 1: Why you don't love him?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Mo oh my god, I mean why you don't love him? No, moa,
Speaker 1: let's talk about it.
Speaker 2: Oh man? I do I love the people still, I
Speaker 2: really love the people. If it was up to a
Speaker 2: certain select group people, I might still be there. But no, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's a totally okay if we don't get the survivor,
Speaker 2: I'm okay not talking about to completely. I'm trying to
Speaker 2: leave that in my past perfect And.
Speaker 1: I don't even know you was on there forget about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, So I was a pastor for eleven years,
Speaker 2: eleven years of my life. Yeah, and I wasn't. I
Speaker 2: didn't grow up in the church. I found my way
Speaker 2: into the church. Church helped me get sober, helped me
Speaker 2: get clean, got me off the streets.
Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa? What was hey? Hey? Hey?
Speaker 2: What was what was going on? Stown?
Speaker 1: What was you doing?
Speaker 2: I was a hot mess. I mean I grew up
Speaker 2: a single parent household. My mom battle was an addiction
Speaker 2: to cocaine. She passed away in twenty seventeen, and so
Speaker 2: there was just a lot going on in that household.
Speaker 2: Stuff was always popping off. And so I was a
Speaker 2: troubled youth. As they say, I guess that's what I
Speaker 2: was branded as.
Speaker 1: Were you really I was.
Speaker 2: I was a little I was a little fighter. I
Speaker 2: was like moving weapons across the city. I was doing
Speaker 2: some crazy stuff.
Speaker 1: Are you being for real right now?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, I'm not lying moving weapons. I thought you were
Speaker 3: in this bubbly, quirky black woman.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad we don't look like what we've been through,
Speaker 2: right phraise God that you don't look like that.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you was waits across state lines.
Speaker 3: You had the federal the federal rallies after you.
Speaker 2: I was doing that. I was also flipping counterfeit money,
Speaker 2: making fake bus tickets. I was like, I was in
Speaker 2: my bag. I was in my like little criminal bag.
Speaker 2: I said, I don't know, you're like, who's on the
Speaker 2: podcast right now?
Speaker 3: I literally I would never get we need the Shattell
Speaker 3: Smith's biopic Queue it up, Netflix. I had no I
Speaker 3: found you on Instagram and TikTok, and I just been
Speaker 3: following you ever since. I didn't I didn't dig into
Speaker 3: your trouble past trouble.
Speaker 2: I was troubled, dysfunctional and troubled. But yeah, I was
Speaker 2: just like, you know, I think my mom just dealing
Speaker 2: with a lot of like her own demons, like alcoholism
Speaker 2: and drugs. I was just very angry, and then my
Speaker 2: dad left when I was really young, and that just
Speaker 2: you know that just hit really really hard because I
Speaker 2: was a daddy's girl as a kid, Caribbean Jamaican man
Speaker 2: who's like now one of my best friends and like
Speaker 2: talk to him about everything, but we had a rough patch.
Speaker 2: So yeah, No, when I came to the church, people
Speaker 2: recognized that I had a gift to like preach and teach.
Speaker 2: I guess people make people laugh from upfront us as
Speaker 2: well as talking about the gospel. I guess that kind
Speaker 2: of equates to having a pastoral gift. But I do
Speaker 2: want to say, not all pastors are preachers, and not
Speaker 2: all preachers are pastors, you know. So I was a
Speaker 2: very gifted speaker, but like in terms of like sitting
Speaker 2: with the people and like knowing everybody's name, like that's
Speaker 2: a pastoral gift. I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't have that.
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I did. I mean, I love people,
Speaker 2: but I was very much like an upfront personality, and
Speaker 2: so I was catapulted to the cat to the pulpit
Speaker 2: space very early on. And then I went decided I
Speaker 2: really wanted to keep learning more about God. I was
Speaker 2: just so hungry and thirsty for the Gospel and for
Speaker 2: the good News, and like the desire just to know
Speaker 2: more about him and this God that forgives, and so
Speaker 2: I went on to sem I went onto my under
Speaker 2: graduate studies at Tyndall University that's in Toronto, named after
Speaker 2: William Tenniel Tyndale, the English translator of the Bible. And
Speaker 2: then I went on to seminary in Michigan. So I
Speaker 2: was there for about yeah, three four years, and then
Speaker 2: completed my doctorate in Peach in Hebrew studies because I
Speaker 2: just loved the Old Testament. So and then I got
Speaker 2: picked up as a well. After that, so much going on, No,
Speaker 2: this is you, this is your story.
Speaker 3: Do not feel led to rush. The people are here
Speaker 3: to learn about Chantell Smith.
Speaker 1: It's me. I'm the people.
Speaker 2: Yeah. After that, Actually, women in ministry weren't like a
Speaker 2: big hot commodity at that time like they were. Actually
Speaker 2: it was very like taboo to be a woman in ministry.
Speaker 2: Around twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, so I went overseas the
Speaker 2: Thailand and Cambodi, and I worked in the area of
Speaker 2: anti sex trafficking kind of on this side of correction,
Speaker 2: not so much prevention, because you're working more on the
Speaker 2: corrective side, like helping people get rehabilitated and teaching microfinance
Speaker 2: and so, like, I just wanted to give back, and
Speaker 2: that was my way of giving back and showing up
Speaker 2: in the world. And then I got hired as a
Speaker 2: chaplain at a university in Canada, and I went and
Speaker 2: pastored there for a year. And then I got hired
Speaker 2: to come down south to California, and that's time I
Speaker 2: made my way back across the border and pastored as
Speaker 2: a chaplain at a university there. So and then I
Speaker 2: got hired as a pastor in DC, and then I
Speaker 2: was pastoring there for a while. So yeah, and then
Speaker 2: the church just didn't want me anymore.
Speaker 3: Not hold on you. You're breathing through act wanting you're
Speaker 3: into act too.
Speaker 2: It's too much, it's too much.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know much time we have.
Speaker 2: Just get get to the good stuff.
Speaker 1: We got time. So so I love that you. So
Speaker 1: let me let me just for clarification, when you.
Speaker 3: Do you have a master's in Divinity or PhD? What what?
Speaker 1: What did you end up finishing when you were done
Speaker 1: with seminary?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have a master's in Divinity and focus
Speaker 2: in Old Testament with a PhD in Hebrew, specifically the
Speaker 2: biblical So I didn't complete that, but that's I've done
Speaker 2: up to the PhD level and extensive studies of that area.
Speaker 2: So just kind of rounds off to being a doctorate
Speaker 2: in Biblical Hebrew, but not necessarily entire whole Testament. But
Speaker 2: that was what my focus was.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what just out of share curiosity, what drew
Speaker 1: you to Hebrew?
Speaker 3: Was it?
Speaker 1: Is it understanding the language, is it the cultures, the
Speaker 1: customs or what was your focus specifically.
Speaker 2: In I was, like I was a part of a
Speaker 2: fundamentalist church, very fundamentalist church, very conservative denomination. I won't
Speaker 2: say what, but for those who know, no, very very legalistic,
Speaker 2: very fear based in my opinion, with extensive doctrines that
Speaker 2: kind of build around the Old Testament and the creative narrative.
Speaker 2: And so for me, like really understanding the Old Testament
Speaker 2: and understanding like the foundation that the New Testament is
Speaker 2: built on was like a key factor for me, kind
Speaker 2: of like understanding who the person of Christ was and
Speaker 2: so and then like I had like a really good
Speaker 2: memory with just memorizing things pretty quickly, so like the
Speaker 2: final forms and the and the like, just Hebrew as
Speaker 2: a language as a pictorial language just stuck really.
Speaker 1: Easily to me, and forms in the parsings, like.
Speaker 2: I mean, like just the way that it's read and
Speaker 2: how it looks like the the just the alphabet as
Speaker 2: a whole, the alphabet, the alphabet as a whole, and
Speaker 2: just it all just came very easy to me. And
Speaker 2: I just I really loved it. I love I love
Speaker 2: the Old Testament, I love Hebrew. I don't know where
Speaker 2: that came from, but I just I just had a
Speaker 2: big fascination with it and kind of loved it. And
Speaker 2: I did an anti I did a Holocaust studies trip
Speaker 2: in in my in my final year of college, I think,
Speaker 2: and going overseas the Poland in Germany and learning about
Speaker 2: the Holocaust, So I think that might have had some
Speaker 2: some influence. But mostly I just really liked the language
Speaker 2: and how it looked and how it read and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so let's like he's not going to do nothing.
Speaker 1: That's the problem. Like if you were, okay, if you
Speaker 1: were going to really protect the family, it'd be fine,
Speaker 1: but you're not. When the robber gets in, you're going
Speaker 1: to be like my belly exactly.
Speaker 2: Like I think it was, well the church that I
Speaker 2: was a part of was racially segregated in a lot
Speaker 2: of ways. They had white conferences and they had black conferences,
Speaker 2: and that was really weird to me being a Canadian
Speaker 2: because everything is very multicultural up north, and so just
Speaker 2: that was weird. And then the whole issue around women's ordination,
Speaker 2: the idea that women could be deacons or elders but
Speaker 2: couldn't actually pastor and lead from upfront or lead a church,
Speaker 2: was really weird to me that you know, we're trying
Speaker 2: to reach the world and preach this good news, but
Speaker 2: you want to tie one hand behind the back. It's
Speaker 2: like just didn't make a lot of sense to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then also like y'all are going to send me
Speaker 2: to seminary and take my money, but you're not going
Speaker 2: to hire me after to work in a local church
Speaker 2: context is very very strange to me. But I think
Speaker 2: the biggest thing was that there wasn't enough like cry
Speaker 2: room in the church for people, Like there wasn't enough humanity,
Speaker 2: enough room for humanity in the church. Like it was
Speaker 2: a lot of like you have to be, you have
Speaker 2: to do And I spoke out a lot against that,
Speaker 2: and just that these doctrines that we make our end
Speaker 2: all and be all and like kind of make people
Speaker 2: salvation wrapped up and just really don't carry much weight.
Speaker 2: And so and then of course there was the LGBQTI
Speaker 2: a thing, and there were so many young people as
Speaker 2: a chaplain on campuses that I was sitting across from.
Speaker 2: You know, it's very different to like, you know, talk
Speaker 2: about this stuff from behind it. It's very easy to
Speaker 2: talk about it from behind a pulpit or even like
Speaker 2: in the seminary or in like a you know, at
Speaker 2: a conference somewhe where everybody's talking about theology and everyone's
Speaker 2: trying to you know, talk about what's evil and what's good,
Speaker 2: and what's right and what's wrong, and you know, all
Speaker 2: these categories of moral morality. It's it's easy to talk
Speaker 2: about of those spaces. But when you're sitting across from
Speaker 2: young adults specifically that are really wrestling with their identity
Speaker 2: and they so desperately, like really want to be connected
Speaker 2: to God and they want to belong and they want
Speaker 2: to fit in, and they you know, they like I
Speaker 2: like walking that journey with so many young people and
Speaker 2: then seeing the church's outright denial, like in the nicest
Speaker 2: way possible, like we love the sinner, but we don't
Speaker 2: love the sin. Like you're here, like not everybody has
Speaker 2: to get married. There are plenty of people around the
Speaker 2: world don't have sex, they don't get married. It's like
Speaker 2: to deny young people like a really big aspect of
Speaker 2: their life, which is dating and like interest and attraction
Speaker 2: is just is very it's I don't it's just very,
Speaker 2: very hard, and it's hard to watch that the like
Speaker 2: the lights go out in young people and to see
Speaker 2: them just kind of start to feel like they don't
Speaker 2: belong or you know, they're going to hell, or they're condemned,
Speaker 2: or they're evil, or they're a part of this you know,
Speaker 2: sinful ideas. To like the sinful thing and that is
Speaker 2: less than everybody else was just really hard.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I so desperately wanted to be like, no, you're fine,
Speaker 2: it's okay, Like God accepts you, God loves you. But
Speaker 2: then I was like also walking this fine line with
Speaker 2: administration and leadership, and I was serving at a very
Speaker 2: high level. I was working at you know, the division
Speaker 2: and then you know, the conference and then the local level,
Speaker 2: and so to be in that space and also be
Speaker 2: next to young people that were wrestling with their identity
Speaker 2: and also a bunch of other like moral issues. It
Speaker 2: just felt like there was just a lot of stress on,
Speaker 2: like condemnation and what's right and what's wrong, and not
Speaker 2: enough grace, not enough room to just be, not enough
Speaker 2: room to just explore God and just be accepted as
Speaker 2: you are, which is the whole point of the gospel,
Speaker 2: just be accepted as you are. But it just and
Speaker 2: so that just started to rub me the wrong way.
Speaker 2: You know, to be a part of a denomination that
Speaker 2: was very racially segregated, that didn't really accept women in
Speaker 2: ministry and that didn't support the queer community was hard
Speaker 2: space for me to be in. And then I think doctrinally,
Speaker 2: there were just a lot of things that I stopped believing.
Speaker 2: I stopped believing in Hell because I just didn't see
Speaker 2: it in the text anymore. And you know, I don't
Speaker 2: think leadership could get on board with a person who
Speaker 2: just didn't believe that there was a judgment and had
Speaker 2: justice coming. And I'm like, I just I mean, I
Speaker 2: might be I might be a heretic, I might be
Speaker 2: might be crazy.
Speaker 1: I'm false teacher, false prophet, even though I never said
Speaker 1: I was a teacher or a prophet, heretics, false prophets,
Speaker 1: you nite.
Speaker 2: This podcast podcast, and so yeah, I'm like, I might
Speaker 2: be a heretic, but also like, you know, show me
Speaker 2: in the text where this is and you know, and
Speaker 2: I'll preach it. But I just stopped believing in that
Speaker 2: stuff and I just started focusing on the person of Christ.
Speaker 2: And the more I focus on who Jesus was, the
Speaker 2: further I went, Like the further I became with the church, like,
Speaker 2: the more distance that came between me and the church,
Speaker 2: and I started to realize, I just don't think that
Speaker 2: Jesus really messes with the church like that. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think I don't think he does. I don't think
Speaker 2: he at least leadership, you know what I mean. It's
Speaker 2: very much like the relationship with the statist Saddest he's
Speaker 2: in the Pharisees. It's like, I think he's there for
Speaker 2: the people and will work with the people that are
Speaker 2: in that space, but leadership, like I think I don't
Speaker 2: know if God rocks with them like that. I just don't.
Speaker 2: I don't believe it. I don't know why, but I
Speaker 2: just don't. And I just didn't want to be a
Speaker 2: part of that anymore.
Speaker 1: So that's so interesting. I have been wrestling with this
Speaker 1: very publicly over the last few years, but more specifically
Speaker 1: the last few months. And if you have been living
Speaker 1: under a rock and this EPISODEI come out in a
Speaker 1: few weeks from when we're actually shooting this, So maybe
Speaker 1: it'll die down, maybe it'll go up again.
Speaker 2: Oh it's not going anywhere.
Speaker 1: Just growing and growing and growing. But I have also
Speaker 1: been publicly, I want to put it like this, publicly
Speaker 1: struggling with my faith. And I used the term the
Speaker 1: way the Bible was taught to me and how I
Speaker 1: am interpreting it for myself. That's I've had a lot
Speaker 1: of the same issues that you have brought up in myself.
Speaker 1: It's like, and I used to work with young people
Speaker 1: as well, and you know, and I also in my
Speaker 1: in my job, I often interact with a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are not Christians at all, and very similar
Speaker 1: to when I worked at Bank of America. First thing
Speaker 1: they tell you in training is, hey, man, you can
Speaker 1: serve any religion you have, but in this workplace, you
Speaker 1: can't bring none of that in here, because you know,
Speaker 1: like I always joke about, but this was actually true.
Speaker 1: I worked with a witch, like an actual practice practicing
Speaker 1: wiccan when I lived in Tacoma and didn't know about it.
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously the way I grew up, very
Speaker 1: fundamentalist Pentecostal, you you were going to hellvy were not
Speaker 1: saved like us, the exact way we are saved. If
Speaker 1: you are a witch. I'm certain there was a special place.
Speaker 1: But the thing that was interesting is I worked with
Speaker 1: this lady for like four years. I didn't know she
Speaker 1: was a witch until like the last six months we
Speaker 1: worked together, and I'm like, you don't.
Speaker 3: I don't know what I thought witches looked like, but
Speaker 3: you was just we've been working on this teller line
Speaker 3: for like a year. We'd be laughing and joking, you know,
Speaker 3: in the breakroom together. I ain't see no hocus focus,
Speaker 3: no stools, no Eye of newt you know.
Speaker 1: So, but specifically about homosexuality and stuff, I was in
Speaker 1: hot water on both sides, but specifically about the church
Speaker 1: because I was struggling.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Basically, I said, I lead with love when it comes
Speaker 1: to queer saints and same sex lovers. And then you know,
Speaker 1: somebody asked me, do I even think it's a sin anymore?
Speaker 1: And I had to really chinto how to really take
Speaker 1: stock of my life, not what I thought, like, I
Speaker 1: really thought about how I've been living my life in
Speaker 1: practice over the last ten or fifteen years, and there
Speaker 1: was nothing in my life that said I even thought
Speaker 1: this was sinful anymore, No biblical evidence, nothing. I'm just saying.
Speaker 1: I was struggling with why God would design people with
Speaker 1: no way out, like what we are deeming is their sin.
Speaker 1: There's nothing they can do or atone for it. This
Speaker 1: is just how they live their life. Everything else that
Speaker 1: they did, you know, lying for example, if I lie
Speaker 1: to you chantel, that hurts you. If I murder you,
Speaker 1: that obviously hurts you when it hurts your family as well.
Speaker 1: But I was struggling how a same sex consensual adult,
Speaker 1: how that is inherently sinful and why that would be
Speaker 1: cause quite the hullabaloo. So we were talking off camera,
Speaker 1: and you were you were You were informed me with
Speaker 1: some of your m dev and your theology studies that
Speaker 1: you believe so much about homosexual homosexuality in the church
Speaker 1: has less to do with the text and more to
Speaker 1: do with culture. Can you expound more on those thoughts
Speaker 1: for people who weren't talking with.
Speaker 2: You and I who weren't weren't dropping in on the text. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think, like I just when you look at the
Speaker 2: texts that are there, like, I think there's there are
Speaker 2: really good hermineutics for working around some of the things that.
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Hermonutics?
Speaker 2: So there's some really good Sorry, thank you, I just
Speaker 2: get me out of the Christianese.
Speaker 1: Theology talking to the talking to them. I don't know
Speaker 1: what hermonudics means.
Speaker 4: I know what you know, and you know when you're
Speaker 4: seminari once you start talking to hermoneutics and educ the text,
Speaker 4: now you I know you don'et went and did some
Speaker 4: some extracurricular studying, But I never know what that worn't
Speaker 4: exactly meant.
Speaker 2: There are some really good tools. There are some really
Speaker 2: good tools and some really good ways to read scripture
Speaker 2: and underscri understand scripture that get around some of the
Speaker 2: very few texts that addressed homosexuality or maybe is maybe
Speaker 2: six or seven maybe that kind of like get close
Speaker 2: to it and you know, tap on it. Like, there
Speaker 2: are some really good tools to kind of get around
Speaker 2: that stuff. So once you work through it with a
Speaker 2: historical lens, you know, looking at the audience that you
Speaker 2: know that the writers were speaking to thinking about, you know,
Speaker 2: why Moses was writing, the purpose behind what Moses was
Speaker 2: writing from the very beginning throughout the Pentituke, which is
Speaker 2: the first five books of the Bible. Right, that's the Pentatuke, right,
Speaker 2: very go right, So when you look at how Moses
Speaker 2: is writing, when you look at Pauline like structure and
Speaker 2: his rhetoric throughout his letters that he's in his sorry
Speaker 2: my gosh, yes, the word the writer, the author, paul
Speaker 2: of the Bible, one of the very first you know,
Speaker 2: apostles and leader of the early Church. You know, when
Speaker 2: you start to break down some of these verses, it's
Speaker 2: not a lot that sticks there. And I know a
Speaker 2: lot of people want to categorize things as evil or good,
Speaker 2: but it's just not a lot that sticks there. And
Speaker 2: so this issue with the queer community with LGBQTAA really
Speaker 2: has to do more with like what I feel when
Speaker 2: when it comes to like same sex attraction with men
Speaker 2: is like the ick factor, Like people just don't like it,
Speaker 2: they don't like to see it. But you know, no
Speaker 2: one has a problem seeing two girls kiss. No one
Speaker 2: has a problem with lesbians. Really in that way, and
Speaker 2: so I do think that it comes down to like
Speaker 2: this cultural thing that we just all got to get
Speaker 2: on board. And it's a really good thing to be like, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, I might be doing all this, but I'm
Speaker 2: not that. You know, I might be doing all this,
Speaker 2: but I'm not that. And it's a good way to
Speaker 2: like set for Christians to separate themselves and to feel
Speaker 2: good about their salvation because at least they're not the
Speaker 2: worst of the worst. Although Paul lumps in a lot
Speaker 2: of this stuff. And I'm not saying that these things
Speaker 2: stick and hold weight or even that he's talking about
Speaker 2: a healthy same sex relationship, but he lumps in, you know,
Speaker 2: if loosely the term homosexuality, that's how it's translated, but
Speaker 2: they're no real word for that back then. But you know,
Speaker 2: he lumps in that term with the liars, with the
Speaker 2: disobedient to parents, with I mean, so the moral lists
Speaker 2: are like they're, you know, they're stuck together, and so
Speaker 2: it really, I mean, these moral issues are they're clumped
Speaker 2: together by Paul, and so there really is no way
Speaker 2: to feel better about who you are except with sharing
Speaker 2: in the glory and the grace that comes through Christ. Jesus.
Speaker 2: But people don't like that. They don't want to be equal,
Speaker 2: they want to feel better, you know, And so there's
Speaker 2: this there's this self righteousness that people try to build by,
Speaker 2: you know, establishing this wall of their that and I'm this, yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's less than and I'm and I'm better, even
Speaker 2: if we're not outwardly saying it. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: culturally it wasn't a really big thing in the church.
Speaker 2: Into the world made it a big thing, and then
Speaker 2: the church came on board and said, hey, we can
Speaker 2: be better than that, and we can hate them more
Speaker 2: than you. It's coming from the great White Throne and scripture,
Speaker 2: so we can throw down worse on the homosexuals than
Speaker 2: you can now join us. I mean, all these desperate
Speaker 2: attempts for Christian churches to gain audience and to have
Speaker 2: the doors flooded with people and the tide going up
Speaker 2: and the buildings getting bigger. I mean, it was built
Speaker 2: on the backs of, you know, communities like the queer
Speaker 2: community and the black community, where we say, hey, we
Speaker 2: don't like them, we don't want them here. This is
Speaker 2: the pure white space, you know, and same sex hetero space,
Speaker 2: heteronormative space, where you can belong. And then over time,
Speaker 2: the church, you know, starts to grapple with this issue more.
Speaker 2: But it's really not a scriptural, textual thing because you
Speaker 2: can prove anything from the Bible. This thing is deeply cultural,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's deeply uh, you know a lot
Speaker 2: of predator prejudice and bias and you know hypocrisy.
Speaker 1: Really, hey, take a quick break here, support the show
Speaker 1: by supporting the sponsors. Your story is so interesting. I
Speaker 1: like where you grew up, right, how you grew up
Speaker 1: troubled youth, arms dealer, euphoria, you know, right, and then
Speaker 1: you found the church and you found community, and then
Speaker 1: it helped you with becoming clean, becoming sober, and you
Speaker 1: hunger for knowledge and hungry, hungry, hungry, hungry, so much knowledge.
Speaker 1: And then you find yourself with so much knowledge that
Speaker 1: you're now clashing with the thing that just saved you
Speaker 1: or pulled you out some years ago. How do you
Speaker 1: reconcile that? Like, although now you're not arms dealing, you're
Speaker 1: just making content and being very funny, but like, how
Speaker 1: do you reconcile? Like? Man, I just was like this
Speaker 1: was so much of my life and now I can't
Speaker 1: see it being as much of my life.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so the church pushes I mean, you
Speaker 2: come in a person like me, coming in off the streets,
Speaker 2: coming in the way that I came in. You know,
Speaker 2: they they share with you this radical love about Jesus.
Speaker 2: You know, this radical love from Jesus that comes from heavenetics.
Speaker 2: You know that this like love love, you know, and
Speaker 2: so you kind of me it filled me up with love.
Speaker 2: So it's like, well, I can't help but love. And
Speaker 2: then you go to a seminary and they teach you
Speaker 2: to think critically. At least Tyndale taught me to think
Speaker 2: critically about the text, to think critically, to think historically,
Speaker 2: to think you know, geographically, to study architecture and archaeology,
Speaker 2: you know, the study of rocks and buildings and from
Speaker 2: you know, the ancient world and understand where I how
Speaker 2: this all all this comes through, and you, you know,
Speaker 2: you begin to develop a critical thinking mind that then
Speaker 2: thinks you out of the box that religion tries to
Speaker 2: place you in. And so for me, it's like it
Speaker 2: was always going to end up here, and it's always
Speaker 2: gonna it's it's it's always going to end up there.
Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people in you know,
Speaker 2: this this kind of this kind of time, and this
Speaker 2: is exactly what Jesus talks about. He's like, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a day coming where you're not going to worship
Speaker 2: on this mountain or that it's going to be by
Speaker 2: spirit and by truth. So I think it always kind
Speaker 2: of lands in this space of like navigating our faith,
Speaker 2: our own finding, you know, pockets of community Christian community
Speaker 2: where we can, and trying to survive this world by
Speaker 2: being loving human beings. So it's like you taught me
Speaker 2: how to love church, and then you told me I
Speaker 2: could only love certain people. You told me about like
Speaker 2: a cross that you know makes a way for all.
Speaker 2: But then you said, well, home, but homosexuality's not on
Speaker 2: the cross or and I'm not even saying that homosexuality
Speaker 2: is a cross, but I'm saying, you know, you say
Speaker 2: this is the one thing that doesn't make it to
Speaker 2: the list. But your divorce is okay and your remarriage,
Speaker 2: and we were.
Speaker 1: Talking about that too. It's like, divorce is such an
Speaker 1: interesting topic because specifically Bible says God hates divorce the
Speaker 1: three words in order, and I think culturally, I was
Speaker 1: just talking about this with my wife. When we were
Speaker 1: kids in the church, especially you know, eighties and early nineties,
Speaker 1: divorce was so taboo. I mean it was like scarlet letter.
Speaker 1: I remember hearing from the pulpit, even if he cheats you,
Speaker 1: cheats on you, Yeah, you know, let nothing separate you
Speaker 1: accept death, you know. And then a few years later
Speaker 1: was like, okay, if he's hitting you, maybe maybe maybe
Speaker 1: if he's hitting you, maybe nothing so sad like. But
Speaker 1: early on it was nothing. No divorce. God hates the
Speaker 1: I mean literally, God hates divorce. And I remember pastors
Speaker 1: would not get divorced. People were in very unhappy marriages.
Speaker 1: As a kid, I didn't know this. But as I
Speaker 1: started growing up and I was a teen and stuff,
Speaker 1: you start to realize a little bit more. And then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, people when I'm sixteen, seventeen, people
Speaker 1: starting to get divorced, and to where now it's like
Speaker 1: it's not even taboo at all. Pastors get divorced, they
Speaker 1: have children from multiple marriages, you know, single pastors with children,
Speaker 1: and it's so not taboo. In the forty years that
Speaker 1: I've lived on Earth, just the topic of divorce has
Speaker 1: gone from completely taboo. You should never God hates it
Speaker 1: to Oh man, people will get divorced. I still serve
Speaker 1: under this pastor that's gotten divorced. So if the culture's
Speaker 1: ideas can change on this in just let's say forty years,
Speaker 1: imagine how much can change over.
Speaker 3: Two thousand years. We're talking about the Bible was written
Speaker 3: over two thousand years across cultures times. You're talking about
Speaker 3: what you can justify the Bible. This same Bible has
Speaker 3: not changed, right in theory, right the words and in
Speaker 3: every translation it's changed. But in theory there's been no
Speaker 3: new words added to the Bible in years. But culturally
Speaker 3: we have decided years ago we are using the Bible
Speaker 3: to justify slavery with no change to the Bible. We
Speaker 3: as a culture decided, you know what, man, slavery is
Speaker 3: like still in the Bible, still in the Bible. But
Speaker 3: we're like, but also, guys, like, this is kind of crazy.
Speaker 3: We not gonna do this getting married to women who
Speaker 3: are not women by the age that we decide is
Speaker 3: content consent based on today, Still in the Bible, you
Speaker 3: could marry a twelve or thirteen year old. In the Bible,
Speaker 3: you could have multiple wives in the Bible, wives Solomon,
Speaker 3: who God calls the most wives, multiple wives, and concubines.
Speaker 3: We still hold his words in such high regard. David
Speaker 3: sent a man, a woman's husband, to the front line
Speaker 3: to be killed so that he could have her, and
Speaker 3: he is called a man after God's own heart.
Speaker 1: In the Bible.
Speaker 3: So I'm like, if all this is in there, why
Speaker 3: are you mad at me for saying I don't think
Speaker 3: gay people.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna treat them crazy. I love them and
Speaker 1: I don't even think this is a sin now. Also,
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about my life, Chantelle, I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about I went to a church with my parents. We
Speaker 1: went to North Carolina and this church, Big Leviticus. No,
Speaker 1: we couldn't eat shrimp or pork. I grew up, my
Speaker 1: family grew up eating shrimp and pork. And my dad
Speaker 1: was like, well, we under this pastor, we eating shrimp
Speaker 1: and pork. So for about nine months of three years,
Speaker 1: we didn't eat shrimp and pork. And then one day
Speaker 1: my dad was like, nine, yo, we having pepperoni pizza, y'all.
Speaker 1: I was like, what about here, we having pepperoni pizza.
Speaker 1: He just was like, nah, man, I ain't with that, No, boy,
Speaker 1: Bible didn't change, pastor didn't change. But my dad was like,
Speaker 1: I want pizza. And I remember that day because I
Speaker 1: was a kid at that time. I didn't challenge anything.
Speaker 1: I had curiosities, so I remember my friends were like,
Speaker 1: why are you picking your pepperoni off? I was like, man,
Speaker 1: it's unclean now, y'all. And I didn't even grow up
Speaker 1: with that. And el paso that was not a thing.
Speaker 1: We had bembering pizza all the time. And this was
Speaker 1: my stepdad. I was like, man, my real dad would
Speaker 1: have let me eat pizza.
Speaker 2: I'm my real dad.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it was like in some ways
Speaker 1: you you know. I remember, and I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: dominating the conversation, but I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: I remember I came to a crossroads in my life
Speaker 1: and it sounds like very similar to what you were
Speaker 1: talking about. When I was a youth pastor, my pastor
Speaker 1: asked me to be a youth pastor because the kids
Speaker 1: really gravitated towards me, the teens, because I was, like you,
Speaker 1: a very funny, charismatic I could. I could make the
Speaker 1: word easy to understand for them, and I could relate
Speaker 1: to them, and I wasn't much older than them. They
Speaker 1: were twelve and I was twenty five twelve to sixteen.
Speaker 1: I had like middle school in high school, so actually
Speaker 1: like twelve to eighteen, but more indexing in high school.
Speaker 1: And I was twenty four twenty five at the time,
Speaker 1: so still listening to music and all that type of stuff.
Speaker 1: And I remember I asked my kids, what do y'all
Speaker 1: want to learn? Because I wanted this Bible study to
Speaker 1: be valuable for you, and they were like, we want
Speaker 1: to learn if tattoos are a sand, and I was like, great, great,
Speaker 1: I can't wait to go to Leviticus and tell you
Speaker 1: exactly why they're a sin. I know they're a sin.
Speaker 1: I've been raised there as sin. They're a sin. Now
Speaker 1: let me tell you why. Pull it up because I
Speaker 1: couldn't remember what chapter it was in, so I typed
Speaker 1: in Google, what where is it the Bible say tattoos
Speaker 1: are sin? And then I typed in after that it
Speaker 1: was like Leviticus and I was like okay. And at
Speaker 1: that time, I was still learning how to be a
Speaker 1: youth pastor, so I used to get a lot of
Speaker 1: help with other messages that were kind of pre like
Speaker 1: I could use like study GUIDs. Yeah, so I typed
Speaker 1: that one and then this I'm never getting white pastor.
Speaker 1: I'd written an article said so you want to teach
Speaker 1: your kids that tattoos are sin and teen Bible study
Speaker 1: and I was like, yes, yes, click. He was like,
Speaker 1: here's the scripture you're looking for, Leviticus nineteen whatever it was.
Speaker 1: And he's like, but before you teach, I want you
Speaker 1: to read this whole chapter. Yes, And I was like okay.
Speaker 1: Felt like he was talking directly to me, because like
Speaker 1: this is how he wrote the article, kind of how
Speaker 1: those recipes they tell you my mother built made cornbread.
Speaker 1: It was like that. He's like, read the scripture before
Speaker 1: and read a few head and then read a few after.
Speaker 1: And I read it and I was like, okay, beards
Speaker 1: and stuff and uncle, you know, fabrics and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And he was like, so if you have facial hair,
Speaker 1: be careful about what you teach. And I had a
Speaker 1: little mustache, little go tea at the time, and he said,
Speaker 1: and check the tag of your shirt. If it's not
Speaker 1: one cotton or one if it's a polyester blend, then
Speaker 1: be careful how you teach this because you're talking about tattoos,
Speaker 1: and you're not talking about mixed fabric. So his point
Speaker 1: was that chapter in Leviticus was written to Levites who
Speaker 1: weren't considered priests, and these were their rules and ordinances.
Speaker 1: It wasn't meant to be applied to lay people and
Speaker 1: that chantel. Once I read that, I said, oh, nobody
Speaker 1: ever taught me that. And then I started learning more
Speaker 1: and more and more. And I remember my pastor was
Speaker 1: so upset me because we had an agreement that I
Speaker 1: didn't have to preach or teach anything I didn't agree with.
Speaker 1: And I told him, I said, hey, man, I don't
Speaker 1: think and I don't even tattoos at the time. But
Speaker 1: I was like, it doesn't look like we understood tattoos
Speaker 1: the way we were taught. And he was like, okay,
Speaker 1: teach it how you want. And and at that point
Speaker 1: I said and then I just was learning everything. And
Speaker 1: I remember one of my pastors, my pastor before that,
Speaker 1: he forbade our church to use the self checkout line.
Speaker 1: There was a new grocery store they let itself. There
Speaker 1: was a big news in Tacoma. You can use the
Speaker 1: self checkout line. I think our grocery store is called safeway,
Speaker 1: and our bishop got up there and said, nobody in
Speaker 1: this church is going to use the self checkout line.
Speaker 1: That is the mark of the beast.
Speaker 2: Mark of the Beast.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was like, is that is hands and forehead kind
Speaker 2: of thing?
Speaker 1: Yes. He was like, that's the market the beast. I said, sir,
Speaker 1: I'm not standing in line. I'm so sorry. No, I'll best.
Speaker 3: I said, it's not the mark of the beast, it's
Speaker 3: it's the same scanner.
Speaker 1: They're just letting you scan it. So I disagreed with
Speaker 1: my pastors along the way in my life, and I
Speaker 1: think even people we were talking about this off camera.
Speaker 1: I think people disagree with the Bible all the time.
Speaker 1: The Bible says if Chantel has commits adult or keV does,
Speaker 1: you can stone them.
Speaker 2: To death, to death, which is a terrible, a terrible, terrible,
Speaker 2: I mean, and a terrible way to deliver death to somebody,
Speaker 2: To throw rocks.
Speaker 1: At you until one eventually knocks you until you either
Speaker 1: bleed out or blunt force trauma. Even if you have
Speaker 1: committed adultry. I'm not gonna throw rocks at you, and
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna when rocks are pelted at you until
Speaker 1: you die so we decide, Okay, man, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: do that, but that's in the Bible. So I think
Speaker 1: we all are wrestling with I thought was something was
Speaker 1: so interesting that you said, is like refining community with
Speaker 1: people you believe in because you really think about it,
Speaker 1: denominations are really just community for people who agree.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 2: I honestly think sometimes it's like type A and Type B,
Speaker 2: Like sometimes it really does come down to like, these
Speaker 2: are just anal retentive people over here, and that's what
Speaker 2: we call the Seventh day Adventist. That's who they are,
Speaker 2: you know. And then we've got the crazy charismatics that
Speaker 2: are Type B and that's the Pentecostal. H then you
Speaker 2: got to mix up both with kojik.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like it's like it really does come down to personalities.
Speaker 2: I'm almost certain that if you did like this nagram
Speaker 2: or those tests, that it would like clump in one
Speaker 2: particular area for these groups of people.
Speaker 1: I agree because I grew up very Pentecostal. We can't
Speaker 1: do nothing. You can't play We know, you can't go
Speaker 1: to the movies, but you can't watch movies at home.
Speaker 1: So I was like, is it the movie theater sinful
Speaker 1: or the movie sinful, because you can go to the
Speaker 1: theater and watch a ballet, but you can't go to
Speaker 1: the theater and watch a movie. It turns out, Chantell,
Speaker 1: we couldn't go to the theater because my pastor's son
Speaker 1: had sex in the movie theater, and then he called
Speaker 1: the whole thing sinful, and we were like, I'm not
Speaker 1: doing that. I just want to watch.
Speaker 2: Them watch I just want to watch cars.
Speaker 1: Yes, And you think about Baptist people buy and large
Speaker 1: for cliche reasons or whatever. They like, smoke cigarettes and
Speaker 1: a lot of people grew up Baptists are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we have no problem with that. I grew up that
Speaker 1: was such completely a sin. And then not the nomination
Speaker 1: on y'all, y'all just don't y'all, just let anything happen
Speaker 1: you wearing pants. So it's like, I think, so many
Speaker 1: of these things are so small and minute, some are big,
Speaker 1: some are huge differences and change. But we could argue
Speaker 1: until we're blue in the face, Chantelle, about things that
Speaker 1: don't really matter. And I think we're supposed to bring
Speaker 1: with our love. I think I think you you you
Speaker 1: help you realize something based on what you said. I
Speaker 1: focused most of my life on how Jesus moved and operated,
Speaker 1: not Paul for me. Yeah, Jesus, how what did he
Speaker 1: do when the when the whole world was going this way?
Speaker 1: He often went the other way? When when the law
Speaker 1: said you can do this, he often didn't do it
Speaker 1: exactly as the law did. And I think you said
Speaker 1: something that I agree with the most because I know
Speaker 1: it was true for me. I wanted to feel better
Speaker 1: than people. I didn't necessarily want to be better. I
Speaker 1: just needed you to be worse so.
Speaker 2: That I feel feel better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm not gonna.
Speaker 2: And that would be your speech when you get to
Speaker 2: the throne, is but god, I didn't do this, you know.
Speaker 2: I wasn't this like you know, I wasn't bent over,
Speaker 2: you know, bending anyone over, you know, that would be
Speaker 2: that would be the argument you get to the throne.
Speaker 2: But that, you know, and it's so sad. It's like
Speaker 2: it's it's funny and I'm like it's but it's like
Speaker 2: it's it's and I'm saying it like we want to
Speaker 2: feel better, you know, And that's all we put the
Speaker 2: homosexuals where we put them, or peat people with the
Speaker 2: same sex orientation where we put them. But it's really
Speaker 2: it's really a response of fear, like we're just afraid.
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm saying, Like you take hell out
Speaker 2: of the equation, you know, because in order for hell
Speaker 2: to exist, God would have to sustain it. And that's
Speaker 2: an issue with the Odyssey right there. That's that basically
Speaker 2: comes down to the character of God. Is he Is
Speaker 2: he evil enough to sustain a living, burning hell for
Speaker 2: all of eternity for those you know, So when you
Speaker 2: if we just took that away for a second and
Speaker 2: just said no, good God in his right mind would
Speaker 2: sustain some of that, we just like it just frees
Speaker 2: a lot of us up to give freedom to everybody
Speaker 2: else to just be who they are. And I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that anything and everything goes. It's not like that.
Speaker 2: But God has called us to live a life of love,
Speaker 2: you know, and what does that look like? And I
Speaker 2: loved what you said, you said, you know, if I
Speaker 2: get before God and his biggest issue with me is
Speaker 2: that I loved gay people. You know, it might just
Speaker 2: be an idol that you're standing in front. It might
Speaker 2: be something else, Because that's that's a crazy thing to
Speaker 2: to you know, to not be able to enter heaven over.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So all of this stuff. You know, the Bible hasn't changed,
Speaker 2: but it documents a God who changes a lot. And
Speaker 2: the reason why he changes is because of his people.
Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't God doesn't change at all. What
Speaker 1: you mean God changes a lot? Right? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's verses that he never changes.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It's a very Greek idea that in order for if
Speaker 2: something changes, that means it's not complete, or it's not
Speaker 2: like holy good, or it has to improve, and that
Speaker 2: means that God wasn't what he's going to be. It's like, no,
Speaker 2: God is good, he's holy, he's righteous, he's all of that.
Speaker 2: He's the unmoved mover and all of that. He's he's good,
Speaker 2: he is love. Like I'm not taking anything away from
Speaker 2: but I am saying that you look at the Bible,
Speaker 2: which is written by sixty six different well a little
Speaker 2: less than sixties, but a lot of authors, sixty six books,
Speaker 2: a lot of authors, a lot of reactions, and you
Speaker 2: get a God that is changing. Oh, don't go into
Speaker 2: the town now, he's going into the town. You know, Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna wipe out ninevah, No, we're ninavah, We're good now.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, like, oh, like is the
Speaker 2: tons of passages that deal with God changing his mind
Speaker 2: and why does he do that for the sake of
Speaker 2: his people? You know. So it's like it makes sense that,
Speaker 2: you know, at one point, your Dad's like, we're not
Speaker 2: you're your stepdad, not your real dab.
Speaker 1: You set dad is He's good now good Now I
Speaker 1: have to go back to pizza. He was back by
Speaker 1: Dad at that time, those nine months. I was unsure
Speaker 1: because I really love pepperoni. Pizza is a big part
Speaker 1: of my life. Nut. But now then he went. Once
Speaker 1: he came off with that, he'd been good ever since.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it makes sense that at one point, like
Speaker 2: you know, we're creating the image of God. It makes
Speaker 2: sense that at one point he's like, no, no, because
Speaker 2: we're under this pastor and then all of a sudden
Speaker 2: it's like this is just not who we are, you know,
Speaker 2: And that's okay, and people are, but people are very
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with the flexibility of God. You know. It's scary
Speaker 2: to think that our God is going to shift and
Speaker 2: meet us where we are. But that that's the bi
Speaker 2: that is the the God of the Bible is someone
Speaker 2: that is changing and changes it on behalf of humanity,
Speaker 2: you know. So he warns and then he gives in.
Speaker 2: And it's it's like if you really study scripture closely,
Speaker 2: like this Lamb is changing. And so you know when
Speaker 2: you when you break everything down, you're left with the
Speaker 2: letters and read. You know what I mean? For me,
Speaker 2: as someone who is deconstructing my faith, I had to
Speaker 2: go back and be like, okay, this this book was
Speaker 2: changed so much. Okay, Pauline epistles, there's Pauline, there's Paul's opinion,
Speaker 2: and then he's speaking authority, authoritai lead the church.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So there's all these things and I'm like what stands?
Speaker 2: What remains? And for me, I just go back to
Speaker 2: the letters and read. And when I think about the
Speaker 2: letters in Red, like I was telling you yesterday, it
Speaker 2: was just like there's zero on this issue of homosexuality.
Speaker 2: Like Christ does not speak about it at all. But
Speaker 2: he does speak about divorce, and he does speak about
Speaker 2: lust and the heart, and he does speak about like
Speaker 2: what sounds like masturbation. At some point in the tax Yo,
Speaker 2: it didn't speak about lying and being a light on
Speaker 2: the hill and the things that matter is what he
Speaker 2: actually discusses. And I know our God saw this coming.
Speaker 2: I know that they were dealing with it back then,
Speaker 2: and yet there's no commentary on it. So, you know,
Speaker 2: I see people out there on social media being like
Speaker 2: Kevin's confusing evil with good and he does not understanding
Speaker 2: why the Christians are man, and it's.
Speaker 1: Like, I don't understand exactly why they're I just I'm
Speaker 1: that part. I'm clear, And the crazy thing is said,
Speaker 1: tell my grandma and my dad usually are opposite of
Speaker 1: me on this. This time they were like, you know what, Sun,
Speaker 1: You're right. And I was come to this because it.
Speaker 2: Feels like because it feels like most people want to
Speaker 2: let it go at this point, like most people want
Speaker 2: to just be able to be in relationship with the
Speaker 2: people they like and love, you know, and they they
Speaker 2: want permission to be let off of the hook that
Speaker 2: these you know, these five or six Bible versus hold
Speaker 2: them to. And so it is the work of good
Speaker 2: leadership to to sit with the text and to help
Speaker 2: people understand how to read scripture well. And you know,
Speaker 2: some people will hear this podcast and they'll say, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, this is like, this is this is the
Speaker 2: worst thing ever. Like they're saying that this is okay,
Speaker 2: that we shouldn't be trusting the Bible. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying you have to understand what the Bible
Speaker 2: is and how to read it, understand it in its
Speaker 2: right context. Like you you went back in Leviticus and
Speaker 2: you realize that, hey, tattoos really have to do with
Speaker 2: the idea of like something that was you know, at
Speaker 2: that time, Cultic priests were cutting themselves for the dead
Speaker 2: and they were doing you know, and so there they
Speaker 2: were the livitical order. The Levites were asked to not
Speaker 2: do that, and so it was dealing with something very
Speaker 2: different the priesthood, and not necessarily the little fish that
Speaker 2: you see on someone's ankle or you know, whatever are
Speaker 2: someone's neck. You know, it's it's just very different. And
Speaker 2: so when you go back and you understand what you're
Speaker 2: reading and how to read it, I think it changes,
Speaker 2: you know, how you can live then and how you
Speaker 2: can receive people.
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, taking a quick commercial break. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: So I we went forty three minutes, and I didn't
Speaker 1: even talk about you as a content creator at all. Yes, no,
Speaker 1: this is I could go two hours on this. It's
Speaker 1: a little bit of theological Thursdays, which is the thing
Speaker 1: I used to do. But then the gay people and
Speaker 1: the Christians got mad at me. I was just like,
Speaker 1: I can't take this. I'm not ready for this. Save
Speaker 1: my life. Shut it down. But this is like a
Speaker 1: little one episode. But I do want to talk about
Speaker 1: you as a content creator. Uh when did you? How
Speaker 1: did you arrive? There was this always a thing.
Speaker 2: I mean I went to like, I've always been creative,
Speaker 2: So I was before I became, before I got into
Speaker 2: the before, while I was in the church and you know,
Speaker 2: wrapping up high school, I was a draw a drawer
Speaker 2: and a painter. And so my first year of college
Speaker 2: was actually out on Tario College of Art and Design.
Speaker 2: So I went for drawing and painting. And after that year,
Speaker 2: I got tired of seeing like white men's penises all
Speaker 2: the time, and I was like, I don't want to
Speaker 2: draw that anymore. And I was falling in love with
Speaker 2: Jesus and I was like, take me to the throne,
Speaker 2: like take me the grades. I'm living in sin drawing, drawing,
Speaker 2: penises over here and titties that aren't mine, and like,
Speaker 2: good heavens the wrinkles, Lord help me. So I go
Speaker 2: into ministry. But I've always been very creative, like and
Speaker 2: like I was. I was a praise and worship dancer
Speaker 2: in the church for a little while.
Speaker 1: You were here, I was.
Speaker 2: I was here, I was side did the sign and
Speaker 2: I did it. Oh, I had to get that. I
Speaker 2: was listen. I was dragging my flesh down to the
Speaker 2: altar and trying to strip myself with sin. So I
Speaker 2: was like, you know, I was always very creative. And
Speaker 2: then after I think it was the pandemic. Was my
Speaker 2: final year in ministry. I was serving at a multi
Speaker 2: multi ethnic, multi generational megachurch in Los Angeles, and it
Speaker 2: was one of my favorite places to serve. But at
Speaker 2: the end of that year, my pastor at the time,
Speaker 2: he said to me, he's like, you know, there are
Speaker 2: He's like, there are there are generals, and then there
Speaker 2: are soldiers. He goes, and I just feel like, You're
Speaker 2: a general, not a soldier. And I was like, I
Speaker 2: didn't understand. He's like, and I'm just He's like, I'm
Speaker 2: telling you this because I want you to be here,
Speaker 2: he's like, and you're doing a great job here. He's like,
Speaker 2: but I feel like God is calling you to be
Speaker 2: a general, not just a soldier. He's like, and I
Speaker 2: don't know what that looks like for you. He's like,
Speaker 2: but if but I just He's like, I'm not saying anything,
Speaker 2: but that's what what God is telling me to tell you.
Speaker 2: And I think after some prayer, I came to the
Speaker 2: just conclusion like this had been a long time coming,
Speaker 2: and this this church was like like my favorite space
Speaker 2: out of all the spaces I had served in, but
Speaker 2: still very exclusive, you know, it's still very rigid on
Speaker 2: the in some of their thinking. And so it was
Speaker 2: at the end of this year that like God had
Speaker 2: just literally like spoke to me, like very clearly, and
Speaker 2: it was like, I'm asking you to leave this place
Speaker 2: of ministry. I was like, well, I love ministrying, like
Speaker 2: you call me to the ministry and like I've gone
Speaker 2: through all this, like pushing past the women's barriers and
Speaker 2: breaking ceilings and leave like I'm here. Like I'm here,
Speaker 2: I'm here, you know. And God was like, and you know,
Speaker 2: and this is it. This is the end of this ride.
Speaker 2: And so I was like, but this is the end
Speaker 2: of ministry. And God was like, this is not the
Speaker 2: end of ministry, but this is the end of your
Speaker 2: you know, your pastoral career right now. And so I
Speaker 2: was literally the day I left. The day I left,
Speaker 2: I was sitting in my apartment thinking like what am
Speaker 2: I going to use my MDV for? What am I
Speaker 2: going to use the factory for? What? I could not
Speaker 2: I could not get a job anywhere. I was like,
Speaker 2: what am I going to do? And my husband, my friend,
Speaker 2: my friend who's now my husband, who is my friend
Speaker 2: at that time, was like, you know, you're so creative,
Speaker 2: Like you should just do like some of these videos
Speaker 2: on TikTok. And I was like, no, I'm not getting
Speaker 2: on TikTok. Are you crazy? No? And he's like, you
Speaker 2: should get on TikTok and I was like, I'm not.
Speaker 2: I had maybe like four thousand followers on Instagram at
Speaker 2: the time, and so he's like, yeah, I just do
Speaker 2: a video on TikTok. So I was like, what am
Speaker 2: I going to do? A video about? What do I
Speaker 2: have to work with? And it was theology? So I
Speaker 2: wrote this video, this sketch about you know, because that
Speaker 2: was the time when there were the protests were happening.
Speaker 2: George Floyd had just happened, and the world was like
Speaker 2: on fire everything with Trump. It was just it was
Speaker 2: a crazy time and we were on lockdown, we were
Speaker 2: in pandemic. It was it was twenty twenty. And so
Speaker 2: I wrote this sketch about like mean like kind of
Speaker 2: meanwhile and heaven, like I can't remember what it was.
Speaker 2: It was like Gabriel get the horses, I think it was,
Speaker 2: and with like God, the Holy Spirit in Christ and
Speaker 2: like just God's response to everything that's happening and how
Speaker 2: God wanted to come down here and lay hands on
Speaker 2: the people, right. And I just I just made up
Speaker 2: a video based on that, based on theology. That's all
Speaker 2: I had. And I went to bed after I post that.
Speaker 2: I woke up to like ninety thousand followers the next
Speaker 2: day in the host Oh my god, god, what is this?
Speaker 2: Like Jason was like sharey, He's like your videos everyone,
Speaker 2: Like I'm like, oh my god, I have my phone.
Speaker 2: Had called after call from my senior pastor, Like I
Speaker 2: had so much like people coming in and calling me
Speaker 2: like no, you you've seen it, you've seen it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think you commented on it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, that makes sense about how I
Speaker 1: found you.
Speaker 2: Then yes, And so then I did a lot of
Speaker 2: videos about God and you know, spirituality, and people just
Speaker 2: loved it. You know. I took me to about three
Speaker 2: hundred thousand followers, and then I transitioned a little bit
Speaker 2: more to lifestyle and like relatability because I didn't want
Speaker 2: to just be boxed into Christianity, and of course the
Speaker 2: people didn't like that, And all of a sudden became
Speaker 2: a sinner again because I was like, you know, posting
Speaker 2: content about hair or something else. And so now I
Speaker 2: think as a content creator, it's a really interesting time
Speaker 2: for me because I'm coming out of my seasonal depression.
Speaker 2: Every winter I go into just the dark space, and
Speaker 2: now I'm just in the space of like trying to
Speaker 2: evolve again as a creator. Like it's just that's the
Speaker 2: way of life. It's like you never just and you
Speaker 2: never arrive anywhere, you know.
Speaker 3: Neverve It's just like seasons in the the way the
Speaker 3: wind blows in the spring, the summer and the fall
Speaker 3: and winter.
Speaker 1: And I think that brings us full circle back to
Speaker 1: what we were talking about. People were, you know, I
Speaker 1: was getting killed and Kevin how can you think this.
Speaker 1: I'm just one person trying to make sense of life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I still love God, I still love his people. I
Speaker 1: love people who don't profresh to even be Christians. But
Speaker 1: I'm also trying to make my way through life as
Speaker 1: as I see it. And I've just never been the
Speaker 1: type to be like, this is the world that is
Speaker 1: explained to you, you accept it without questioning. I've never
Speaker 1: been that person when it comes to anything, and I you,
Speaker 1: I think you shouldn't be that person because if you're
Speaker 1: never gonna question anything, people can get away with anything.
Speaker 1: If you're just not, like, hey man, that just ain't cool.
Speaker 1: And I also don't fully understand the Bible or God,
Speaker 1: and I think that's okay. I think God is too
Speaker 1: big for us to even fully understand him anyway. And
Speaker 1: I don't understand how airplanes work either. We guess what
Speaker 1: shall tell tomorrow. I'm getting on a plane and I.
Speaker 3: Hope it lands.
Speaker 2: I hope, Oh my gosh. The way that I've been
Speaker 2: driving across this country because I don't want to get
Speaker 2: on a plane, Like when I tell you, I drove
Speaker 2: to Atlanta, I drove to New York. I was gonna
Speaker 2: drive to California, and I was like, you know what,
Speaker 2: I rebuked the spirit of fear. If anything is real,
Speaker 2: it's the spirit of fear. And I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: out of agreement with it. I rebuke it, and I'm
Speaker 2: getting on that plane. And man, what was it the
Speaker 2: other Just just yesterday a little mini plane crashed.
Speaker 1: Into somewhere in there's a mini plane crashing every day.
Speaker 1: If you're plane is small enough, it won't even make
Speaker 1: the news. If it's a single engine Cessna level plane.
Speaker 1: They only really make the news if it's where you live,
Speaker 1: or if it's a major airline jet but them single
Speaker 1: engine planes, or if somebody famous dies, but small planes
Speaker 1: crashing that that happens quite often.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Well you are gonna travel safe. You
Speaker 2: are get on that plane, and you're gonna.
Speaker 1: Let be my last podcast. And to be like Dan
Speaker 1: Kenus he went out, You're.
Speaker 2: Talking about the gays, and they're like, he's for sure cook,
Speaker 2: he's cooked now, He's cooked.
Speaker 3: Now, And you know what sweter about that? And I'm
Speaker 3: gonna let you go after this. The funny thing is,
Speaker 3: even if.
Speaker 2: I am going to hell, you're not going to hell.
Speaker 1: Even if I am going to hell, nobody would even
Speaker 1: know because our bodies are gonna be so changed. You're
Speaker 1: not gonna be like I know, Kemo stage is make it.
Speaker 1: If you're in heaven, you're gonna be focused on the
Speaker 1: things of heaven. And if you in Hell with me,
Speaker 1: then clearly we was both wrong about something. Okay, before
Speaker 1: we go, please tell people what you're working on where
Speaker 1: they can find you the things that people say at
Speaker 1: the end of podcasts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting time. But like
Speaker 2: I said, I'm trying to evolve as a creator, and
Speaker 2: it's it's hard right now, just you know what I
Speaker 2: love to create. I don't know if it resonates all
Speaker 2: the time, and so it's like, you know, just finding
Speaker 2: myself again. But I just wrote a show, we filmed it,
Speaker 2: I cast it, we filmed it. It just came back
Speaker 2: from its last round of color correction, and it's being mixed.
Speaker 2: The sound is being mixed. So it arrives on Monday,
Speaker 2: and so this is great. Yeah, the trailer is on
Speaker 2: my my Instagram page, and I it's like, it's my
Speaker 2: it's my story. It's about like being raised by part
Speaker 2: Mafia Park Caribbean, like you know, and like but honestly,
Speaker 2: like it's there's no lies, Like I could show you
Speaker 2: the paperwork, it's all real. And then also and then
Speaker 2: and then pastoring in the church in an all white
Speaker 2: context and being the only black person there but leading
Speaker 2: out in a space of a church that's just kind
Speaker 2: of really crazy and kind of psychotic. And it's a
Speaker 2: dark comedy because I'm really navigating grief through most of it.
Speaker 2: So it's my heart to the viewer about like just
Speaker 2: how I navigated my mom's passing while pastoring, while living
Speaker 2: with my Italian uncle and having trying to rebel the
Speaker 2: relationship with my Jamaican dad, and it's it's it's it's
Speaker 2: fun chaos. And so that's what I'm working on right now.
Speaker 2: That's my big baby.
Speaker 1: I love this.
Speaker 2: And of course your first thing is always your worst thing,
Speaker 2: and so I don't know how it's gonna do.
Speaker 1: But out there, listen, the only way you can get
Speaker 1: better Chantelle is by putting out the stuff. Yeah, all
Speaker 1: you can ever do. Ryan Cooger said this. He said
Speaker 1: he doesn't compare his movies to one another. He just
Speaker 1: knows that when he made Fruit Val that was as
Speaker 1: good of a movie as he could make, and that
Speaker 1: was as good as a filmmaker as he could make.
Speaker 1: Same thing happened with Creed, Same thing happened with Black
Speaker 1: Panther one and.
Speaker 2: Two for him at that time, right for him, at
Speaker 2: that time he could do.
Speaker 1: That's when you made this with everything you know, in
Speaker 1: all your experience. That's as good as you can be.
Speaker 1: And all we can hope is that as we grow, change,
Speaker 1: learn and get experience, we can get better. So that's it.
Speaker 1: We'll be excited to see your first thing, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1: Shantel Smith heretic content creator and friend.
Speaker 2: Check her Jesus. I love him with my whole heart. Okay.
Speaker 2: I just love gay people too. That's all it is.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's all it is.
Speaker 2: From from as a creator, like on social media, I
Speaker 2: want to say a big thank you to you, and
Speaker 2: I I know I'm speaking for a number of content creators.
Speaker 2: I know because I'm I'm in the I'm in the mix, okay,
Speaker 2: and I just want to say, like, thank you. Are
Speaker 2: you on the status?
Speaker 1: Ye think?
Speaker 2: I think you big big thank you for like encouraging
Speaker 2: honestly on some of my words days were like where
Speaker 2: where I saw your posts? And like some of my
Speaker 2: moments where I didn't want to post where I saw
Speaker 2: your post are just like encouraging us as creators to
Speaker 2: be fearless, be vulnerable, put your stuff out there, and
Speaker 2: don't worry about what people are gonna think. Like you
Speaker 2: and Mel Robbins, you're like both of two very different people,
Speaker 2: but my almost my favorite people to follow because you
Speaker 2: encourage us. And so it's like you, whether you like
Speaker 2: or not, you are pastoring a group of content creators.
Speaker 2: You are you rejected, No, no, you absolutely have to
Speaker 2: receive it because there's so many of us that look
Speaker 2: up to you and are looking towards you as someone
Speaker 2: who's created a path for content creators to break out
Speaker 2: of just social media and to like reinvent ourselves. So
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you, I'll take you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for.
Speaker 2: Hiring me, Thank you for hiring me for that last
Speaker 2: for the shop.
Speaker 1: That was amazing. You were amazing. I can't wait for
Speaker 1: people to see the stuff you wrote and the stuff
Speaker 1: you acted in. You kill it, ladies and gentlemen, this
Speaker 1: has been Shane tell Smith, I've been kept on stage.
Speaker 1: Not my best moment.
Speaker 3: If you like it, subscribe, rate it, do all those
Speaker 3: things and If you don't.
Speaker 1: Okay, at least you watched this one. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next week. This has been a Unanimous Media original. Not
Speaker 1: My Best Moment was produced by iHeart Podcasts and Unanimous Media.
Speaker 1: It was hosted by me Kevin Fredericks. Executive produced by
Speaker 1: Stephen Curry, Eric Payton and Charlotte Sumter Jett Co executive
Speaker 1: producer Klena Maria Cutney. The executi producers of the iHeart
Speaker 1: Podcasts are Sean Titne and Jason English. This series was
Speaker 1: produced by Peter Calter and Jabari Davis. Co producer Kurt Redmond.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Stephen Curry and Will Pearson. Not My
Speaker 1: Best Moment is a production of Unanimous Media and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.