1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:27,170 Speaker 1: Pushkin. According to the Cambridge English Dictionary, to trust is 2 00:00:27,530 --> 00:00:31,050 Speaker 1: to believe that someone is good and honest and will 3 00:00:31,090 --> 00:00:34,850 Speaker 1: not harm you, or that something is safe and reliable. 4 00:00:35,930 --> 00:00:38,930 Speaker 1: As loyal listeners to Cautionary Tales, you will have heard 5 00:00:39,250 --> 00:00:43,530 Speaker 1: countless stories of people who were not good and not 6 00:00:43,690 --> 00:00:47,530 Speaker 1: honest and did do harm people such as Ponzi scheme 7 00:00:47,650 --> 00:00:53,450 Speaker 1: fraudster Samuel israel I, art forger han Van Meghrin, and 8 00:00:53,530 --> 00:00:59,050 Speaker 1: the murderous Dr Harold Shipman. And yet these men were trusted. 9 00:00:59,890 --> 00:01:04,210 Speaker 1: Why I've told you about people who trusted in technology 10 00:01:04,290 --> 00:01:06,850 Speaker 1: when they shouldn't and those who didn't trust it when 11 00:01:06,850 --> 00:01:10,770 Speaker 1: they should Again, why to help us get to grips 12 00:01:10,810 --> 00:01:13,570 Speaker 1: with issues of trust, I am joined by my friend 13 00:01:13,650 --> 00:01:18,970 Speaker 1: and fellow Pushkin voice Rachel Botsman. Rachel lectures in Trust 14 00:01:19,050 --> 00:01:22,850 Speaker 1: at Oxford University, and her new audiobook, How to Trust 15 00:01:22,930 --> 00:01:27,170 Speaker 1: and Be Trusted, is available via Pushkin, dot FM or 16 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:29,330 Speaker 1: wherever else audiobooks are sold. 17 00:01:29,930 --> 00:01:32,370 Speaker 2: Hello Rachel, Hello Tim, it's nice to see you. 18 00:01:32,730 --> 00:01:35,050 Speaker 1: It's great to see you as well. So we have 19 00:01:35,370 --> 00:01:38,770 Speaker 1: asked listeners to Cautionary Tales and subscribe us to your 20 00:01:38,810 --> 00:01:42,650 Speaker 1: newsletter Rethink to get in touch for this special trust 21 00:01:42,730 --> 00:01:46,730 Speaker 1: based edition of Cautionary Questions. Before we dip into the mailbag, though, 22 00:01:46,890 --> 00:01:49,850 Speaker 1: please tell me why is this topic so interesting to you? 23 00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:51,370 Speaker 2: For so many reasons? 24 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:55,650 Speaker 3: But I generally am interested in things that aren't always visible, 25 00:01:55,970 --> 00:01:59,330 Speaker 3: that are quite difficult to see or complex to understand. 26 00:01:59,970 --> 00:02:03,690 Speaker 3: And trust is one of those forces you can't see 27 00:02:03,850 --> 00:02:07,610 Speaker 3: or touch trust, and yet you feel it, you know 28 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:11,690 Speaker 3: when it's gone. So I like topics that are very 29 00:02:12,090 --> 00:02:15,490 Speaker 3: complex and ever changing and that impacts so many different 30 00:02:15,530 --> 00:02:18,650 Speaker 3: areas of our lives. And I guess that's very true 31 00:02:18,690 --> 00:02:20,410 Speaker 3: for trust. It's hard to think of an air of 32 00:02:20,450 --> 00:02:21,890 Speaker 3: our life that isn't touched by trust. 33 00:02:22,010 --> 00:02:25,330 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I should say, just before we started recording, 34 00:02:25,370 --> 00:02:28,250 Speaker 1: you caught a glimpse of my script with that definition 35 00:02:28,290 --> 00:02:31,770 Speaker 1: of trust from the Cambridge Dictionary, and you said, well, 36 00:02:31,770 --> 00:02:32,330 Speaker 1: that's boring. 37 00:02:32,730 --> 00:02:35,770 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's wrong as well, to be honest. 38 00:02:35,930 --> 00:02:36,650 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm listening. 39 00:02:37,090 --> 00:02:39,810 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, first of all, good is a terrible word, right, 40 00:02:39,850 --> 00:02:43,010 Speaker 3: Like good is so subjective. Trust is subjective. But what 41 00:02:43,050 --> 00:02:46,970 Speaker 3: does good and honest mean? And something that is safe 42 00:02:46,970 --> 00:02:50,050 Speaker 3: and reliable? Well, I don't like that because it's making 43 00:02:50,050 --> 00:02:52,850 Speaker 3: a distinction that the way you trust someone and the 44 00:02:52,890 --> 00:02:56,410 Speaker 3: way you trust something. There's a distinction there which doesn't 45 00:02:56,410 --> 00:02:59,290 Speaker 3: seem right in the age of intelligent technology. 46 00:02:59,690 --> 00:03:01,010 Speaker 2: But also so many. 47 00:03:00,930 --> 00:03:04,930 Speaker 3: Definitions of trust are about knowing what to expect or 48 00:03:05,050 --> 00:03:08,370 Speaker 3: knowing what the outcome is, and that is not really 49 00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:11,530 Speaker 3: the flexity of trust. The way I defined trust is 50 00:03:11,690 --> 00:03:15,770 Speaker 3: it's a confident relationship with the unknown. So trust it's 51 00:03:15,850 --> 00:03:19,490 Speaker 3: much more in the space of risk and uncertainty. And 52 00:03:19,570 --> 00:03:21,530 Speaker 3: I think it's when people think, oh, I know, I 53 00:03:21,530 --> 00:03:24,290 Speaker 3: can trust someone because they're good and they're honest, or 54 00:03:24,290 --> 00:03:28,290 Speaker 3: they're safe and reliable. That's when we make really bad decisions. 55 00:03:28,330 --> 00:03:31,490 Speaker 1: Fascinating. We will get into all of this, but before 56 00:03:31,610 --> 00:03:35,370 Speaker 1: the questions you can trust, cautionary tales to give you 57 00:03:35,690 --> 00:04:01,930 Speaker 1: this music, I'm sitting with Rachel Botsman, the author of 58 00:04:02,010 --> 00:04:04,810 Speaker 1: How To Trust and Be Trusted. Rachel, you ready for 59 00:04:04,890 --> 00:04:05,530 Speaker 1: some questions. 60 00:04:05,930 --> 00:04:08,970 Speaker 2: I am. I think they're good questions, so reveal to everybody. 61 00:04:09,170 --> 00:04:10,450 Speaker 2: You've already seen the questions. 62 00:04:10,610 --> 00:04:14,170 Speaker 1: It's fine, it's fine, we're being trustworthy and transparent. Okay, 63 00:04:14,170 --> 00:04:16,290 Speaker 1: this question, which is a total surprise and you have 64 00:04:16,330 --> 00:04:19,730 Speaker 1: not seen before. I have not. She's seen the questions. 65 00:04:20,210 --> 00:04:24,530 Speaker 2: They were my newsletter, Tim, so I had to collect them. Okay. 66 00:04:25,170 --> 00:04:29,330 Speaker 2: Our first question, as you very well know, is from Lee. 67 00:04:29,290 --> 00:04:35,010 Speaker 1: In Iowa, and Lee asks, is trust given, earned or 68 00:04:35,090 --> 00:04:38,130 Speaker 1: buried so deep in our psychee that we don't even know? 69 00:04:38,850 --> 00:04:39,010 Speaker 2: Now? 70 00:04:39,090 --> 00:04:42,370 Speaker 3: My sense is Lee kind of knows the answer to 71 00:04:42,410 --> 00:04:46,970 Speaker 3: this question. But it's a very interesting question because trust 72 00:04:47,090 --> 00:04:51,290 Speaker 3: is given and it's earned, and sometimes we do those 73 00:04:51,290 --> 00:04:55,050 Speaker 3: things without even thinking. We just lead with our intuition. Now, 74 00:04:55,130 --> 00:04:57,610 Speaker 3: the way that works can differ. You could give me 75 00:04:57,890 --> 00:05:01,210 Speaker 3: your trust by saying, come on this show, and then 76 00:05:01,530 --> 00:05:04,250 Speaker 3: I have to earn that trust back, so I have 77 00:05:04,330 --> 00:05:07,090 Speaker 3: to show up, and if that works, we form this 78 00:05:07,290 --> 00:05:08,170 Speaker 3: really nice. 79 00:05:07,930 --> 00:05:09,690 Speaker 2: Loop that's what we call by trust loop. 80 00:05:10,050 --> 00:05:11,930 Speaker 3: But if you give my trust and it turns out 81 00:05:11,930 --> 00:05:16,570 Speaker 3: I don't know anything about this, that is broken. Also 82 00:05:16,650 --> 00:05:19,490 Speaker 3: can happen is you can give your trust to someone 83 00:05:20,010 --> 00:05:23,930 Speaker 3: and they can choose not to trust you back. Slightly different, right, 84 00:05:24,010 --> 00:05:26,570 Speaker 3: So you can choose to trust the leader in your 85 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:29,130 Speaker 3: organization and they're not ready to trust you, and that 86 00:05:29,170 --> 00:05:32,490 Speaker 3: can really hurt as well. But most trust decisions we 87 00:05:32,570 --> 00:05:35,010 Speaker 3: do without even thinking about them, and that's because we 88 00:05:35,050 --> 00:05:39,130 Speaker 3: couldn't function if we're always thinking about giving an earning trust. 89 00:05:39,650 --> 00:05:42,770 Speaker 3: But particularly in new relationships. You want that loop to 90 00:05:42,810 --> 00:05:43,730 Speaker 3: be really, really healthy. 91 00:05:44,090 --> 00:05:46,410 Speaker 1: This idea that it's buried so deep in our psyche 92 00:05:46,450 --> 00:05:49,050 Speaker 1: that we don't even know. Is it a very mysterious 93 00:05:49,250 --> 00:05:51,810 Speaker 1: process who we trust in, who we don't or or 94 00:05:51,850 --> 00:05:53,330 Speaker 1: do you think it's perfectly explicable. 95 00:05:53,890 --> 00:05:57,050 Speaker 3: It is often led by intuition and not information. You 96 00:05:57,090 --> 00:05:59,290 Speaker 3: don't always think about why am I trusting this person, 97 00:05:59,490 --> 00:06:03,570 Speaker 3: especially when you make decisions when you're under pressure or 98 00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:06,730 Speaker 3: you really want to trust that person. Then it is 99 00:06:06,890 --> 00:06:11,570 Speaker 3: buried deep within us. Also, our trust relations form very early, 100 00:06:11,650 --> 00:06:15,450 Speaker 3: around three or four. We develop our trust profile, which 101 00:06:15,490 --> 00:06:19,490 Speaker 3: is tied to risk and safety and protection. So so 102 00:06:19,610 --> 00:06:22,970 Speaker 3: much of that is environmental conditioning that is set from 103 00:06:23,010 --> 00:06:24,050 Speaker 3: a really young age. 104 00:06:24,130 --> 00:06:26,810 Speaker 1: So that suggests that there's a type of person who 105 00:06:26,850 --> 00:06:28,930 Speaker 1: is trusting or who is not trusting. 106 00:06:29,090 --> 00:06:32,930 Speaker 3: It is so around seventy percent of people are naturally trusting. 107 00:06:32,970 --> 00:06:35,610 Speaker 3: That is their instinct to trust, and that is a 108 00:06:35,650 --> 00:06:38,650 Speaker 3: lot to do with nurture and environment versus nature. 109 00:06:39,210 --> 00:06:41,890 Speaker 1: They've learned from experience that most people do deserve to 110 00:06:41,890 --> 00:06:42,370 Speaker 1: be trusted. 111 00:06:42,490 --> 00:06:44,810 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can depend on you. I've got that feeling. 112 00:06:44,970 --> 00:06:47,010 Speaker 3: By the time children hit primary school, if they've never 113 00:06:47,050 --> 00:06:50,450 Speaker 3: felt that relationship teachers will talk about this right. They 114 00:06:50,490 --> 00:06:52,490 Speaker 3: have children that they don't know how to trust an 115 00:06:52,490 --> 00:06:55,490 Speaker 3: adult because they've never had that experience and can lead 116 00:06:55,530 --> 00:06:58,610 Speaker 3: to all kinds of unraveling. And thirty percent of people 117 00:06:58,850 --> 00:07:02,410 Speaker 3: won't give their trust until they have proof, so they 118 00:07:02,450 --> 00:07:05,650 Speaker 3: hold their trust back, which is actually quite tricky to 119 00:07:05,690 --> 00:07:06,610 Speaker 3: live life like that. 120 00:07:06,970 --> 00:07:11,010 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the famous marshmallow test. It's a 121 00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:14,850 Speaker 1: psychological experiment. These children were given a marshmallow and said, 122 00:07:14,890 --> 00:07:18,370 Speaker 1: you can eat this marshmallow now, or if you don't 123 00:07:18,690 --> 00:07:21,930 Speaker 1: eat the marshmallow while I go away, I'll be back 124 00:07:21,970 --> 00:07:24,250 Speaker 1: in a few minutes and I'll bring you another marshmallow. 125 00:07:24,250 --> 00:07:27,410 Speaker 1: And if you can wait, you get to eat two marshmallows. 126 00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:31,170 Speaker 1: And some kids eat the marshmallow and some kids don't. 127 00:07:31,490 --> 00:07:34,810 Speaker 1: The psychologists who led this experiment was Walter Michelle. Turns 128 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:38,290 Speaker 1: out this was predictive of success later in life. So 129 00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:40,770 Speaker 1: the kids who had the will power to hold on 130 00:07:40,850 --> 00:07:43,810 Speaker 1: and wait for the second marshmallow, that was a wonderful 131 00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:47,170 Speaker 1: predictor of going on to be an incredibly successful human being. 132 00:07:47,930 --> 00:07:50,330 Speaker 1: There are lots of different arguments about what this really shows, 133 00:07:50,370 --> 00:07:54,610 Speaker 1: but one possible interpretation I would guess is some children 134 00:07:54,650 --> 00:07:57,370 Speaker 1: are told if a grown up promises to bring you 135 00:07:57,410 --> 00:07:59,130 Speaker 1: on marshmallow, they are actually going to show up with 136 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:04,530 Speaker 1: a marshmallow. And others have learned from painful experience, do not, 137 00:08:04,570 --> 00:08:06,210 Speaker 1: in fact follow through on their promises, and you might 138 00:08:06,210 --> 00:08:08,090 Speaker 1: as well eat the marshmallow while you can. 139 00:08:08,930 --> 00:08:11,450 Speaker 3: And some people they see that as an experiment in 140 00:08:11,490 --> 00:08:14,170 Speaker 3: self discipline, but I see it as an experiment in trust. 141 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:17,410 Speaker 3: And you probably noticed him, but many people have tried 142 00:08:17,410 --> 00:08:19,970 Speaker 3: to recreate that experiment, and I can't remember when they 143 00:08:20,010 --> 00:08:24,090 Speaker 3: did it, but someone changed who the person was that 144 00:08:24,130 --> 00:08:25,090 Speaker 3: gave the instructions. 145 00:08:26,530 --> 00:08:27,530 Speaker 2: This is really interesting. 146 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:30,970 Speaker 3: So a teacher, parent or a grandparent, someone that was 147 00:08:31,010 --> 00:08:34,690 Speaker 3: familiar to them, and a total stranger, and it turned 148 00:08:34,730 --> 00:08:37,690 Speaker 3: out the key variable was the person giving the instructions. 149 00:08:38,410 --> 00:08:41,890 Speaker 3: So that's because oh, I trust you, I trust that 150 00:08:41,930 --> 00:08:44,930 Speaker 3: you're going to bring the other marshmallow, versus my own 151 00:08:45,010 --> 00:08:47,610 Speaker 3: self discipline. So it was really interesting that the outcome 152 00:08:47,650 --> 00:08:51,890 Speaker 3: of the experiment changed depending on how much they trusted 153 00:08:51,890 --> 00:08:52,570 Speaker 3: the instructor. 154 00:08:52,810 --> 00:08:57,930 Speaker 1: That's fantastic. You have a question from MJ who asks 155 00:08:58,610 --> 00:09:02,530 Speaker 1: why do people continue to trust someone after finding out 156 00:09:03,010 --> 00:09:04,210 Speaker 1: that they've been lied to. 157 00:09:04,970 --> 00:09:08,890 Speaker 3: It's a very common one, both in personal relationships and 158 00:09:09,090 --> 00:09:13,330 Speaker 3: professional relationships. I tell a story in the book about 159 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:17,690 Speaker 3: my parents who trusted her nanny. They hired her because 160 00:09:17,770 --> 00:09:21,050 Speaker 3: she said she belonged to the Salvation Army and she 161 00:09:21,170 --> 00:09:23,530 Speaker 3: liked helping people, and she had a Scottish accent, and 162 00:09:23,610 --> 00:09:27,250 Speaker 3: accents are very influential in how we trust. For a signal, 163 00:09:27,490 --> 00:09:29,050 Speaker 3: long story short, she came into her house, she was 164 00:09:29,050 --> 00:09:30,970 Speaker 3: wearing the uniform, she was carrying a tambourine. 165 00:09:31,410 --> 00:09:32,250 Speaker 2: She lived with us for. 166 00:09:32,170 --> 00:09:36,450 Speaker 3: About a year before they realized she was stealing money 167 00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:41,050 Speaker 3: and doing various other things. I mean, the story culminated 168 00:09:41,090 --> 00:09:42,850 Speaker 3: with her stealing our car and using it as a 169 00:09:42,850 --> 00:09:44,210 Speaker 3: getaway and an armed robbery. 170 00:09:44,250 --> 00:09:46,090 Speaker 2: So this did not end well. 171 00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:48,890 Speaker 3: Right, But the point is to the question she lied 172 00:09:48,930 --> 00:09:52,730 Speaker 3: to them so many times, And what I wanted to 173 00:09:52,730 --> 00:09:55,010 Speaker 3: find out for my dad is exactly this question, like 174 00:09:55,090 --> 00:09:58,730 Speaker 3: why did you continue to trust her? And they said, well, 175 00:09:59,290 --> 00:10:01,770 Speaker 3: she was actually a really good nanny, so in the 176 00:10:01,810 --> 00:10:05,690 Speaker 3: context of taking care of us, it didn't matter that 177 00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:08,370 Speaker 3: she was dealing drugs on the side. In the context 178 00:10:08,410 --> 00:10:12,530 Speaker 3: they needed her her, she was trustworthy and. 179 00:10:12,410 --> 00:10:14,170 Speaker 1: Was that also your experience that she was a good 180 00:10:14,490 --> 00:10:14,970 Speaker 1: she was. 181 00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:17,490 Speaker 3: She was actually very friendly. But the thing is, like 182 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:21,090 Speaker 3: when I was taping my dad, he did confess. And 183 00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:24,370 Speaker 3: this is a big one. It would have been inconvenient 184 00:10:24,850 --> 00:10:27,490 Speaker 3: to get rid of her. You know, she'd been in 185 00:10:27,530 --> 00:10:30,490 Speaker 3: our lives. She understood how everything worked, and so to 186 00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:33,490 Speaker 3: find someone else felt like effort. They were really busy 187 00:10:33,490 --> 00:10:35,730 Speaker 3: in their lives and they were traveling lots and their 188 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:39,370 Speaker 3: businesses in that real period of pressure inconvenience is a 189 00:10:39,370 --> 00:10:42,770 Speaker 3: big one. But also we don't like the uncertainty of 190 00:10:42,810 --> 00:10:45,130 Speaker 3: getting rid of that person. So there is a certain 191 00:10:45,410 --> 00:10:50,650 Speaker 3: certainty of placing your trust in an untrustworthy person. And 192 00:10:50,730 --> 00:10:54,090 Speaker 3: I think that speaks volumes to how much as human 193 00:10:54,130 --> 00:10:55,610 Speaker 3: beings we hate the unknown. 194 00:10:56,770 --> 00:11:00,930 Speaker 1: Did your father know and decide it's fine, Okay, she 195 00:11:01,010 --> 00:11:03,690 Speaker 1: might be an armed robber, but she's a good nanny 196 00:11:04,130 --> 00:11:05,970 Speaker 1: and we haven't got time to find another honey now. 197 00:11:06,370 --> 00:11:08,650 Speaker 1: Or was it more a case if he was in 198 00:11:08,690 --> 00:11:12,450 Speaker 1: denial just choosing to overlook or or not wanting to 199 00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:14,810 Speaker 1: believe the evidence that were starting to accumulate. 200 00:11:15,090 --> 00:11:16,410 Speaker 2: I think it was a bit of both. 201 00:11:16,450 --> 00:11:19,970 Speaker 3: I think they were in denal so they didn't look 202 00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:24,370 Speaker 3: harder or they didn't look further into the situation, so 203 00:11:24,810 --> 00:11:29,090 Speaker 3: she once lied that her uncle had died. And then 204 00:11:29,130 --> 00:11:31,130 Speaker 3: so when her mum rang, you know my dad's and 205 00:11:31,170 --> 00:11:33,970 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry about your brother's loss, and she was like, well, 206 00:11:34,050 --> 00:11:36,570 Speaker 3: uncle Charlie's having a cup of tea a digestive right 207 00:11:36,610 --> 00:11:39,090 Speaker 3: next to me, and he just made all these excuses 208 00:11:39,090 --> 00:11:42,090 Speaker 3: for her that now when he looks back, he's like, 209 00:11:42,530 --> 00:11:45,930 Speaker 3: how did we miss so much? And it wasn't until 210 00:11:45,930 --> 00:11:48,450 Speaker 3: the police came to arrest him because it was our car, 211 00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:52,890 Speaker 3: And then they went into her room and they realized 212 00:11:52,930 --> 00:11:55,410 Speaker 3: the extent of the fraud because she'd been using his 213 00:11:55,450 --> 00:11:59,450 Speaker 3: credit cards. So yeah, I think they definitely turned a 214 00:11:59,490 --> 00:12:02,130 Speaker 3: blind eye to things they just didn't want to see. 215 00:12:02,170 --> 00:12:05,770 Speaker 3: And they're not stupid people, and they're very good parents 216 00:12:05,770 --> 00:12:06,290 Speaker 3: as well. 217 00:12:06,890 --> 00:12:10,010 Speaker 1: So I want to ask about the relations between wishful 218 00:12:10,050 --> 00:12:14,650 Speaker 1: thinking and misplaced trust. So a couple of cautionary tales 219 00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:17,290 Speaker 1: that come to my mind, both involving people who were 220 00:12:17,290 --> 00:12:22,130 Speaker 1: not stupid. So one Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who famously 221 00:12:22,330 --> 00:12:25,970 Speaker 1: was fooled by a teenage girl into believing that there 222 00:12:25,970 --> 00:12:28,610 Speaker 1: were fairies at the bottom of her garden. Here are 223 00:12:28,610 --> 00:12:31,650 Speaker 1: some photos of the fairies, and he really wanted to 224 00:12:31,650 --> 00:12:34,610 Speaker 1: believe in fairies. He wanted to believe, more broadly, in 225 00:12:34,650 --> 00:12:38,610 Speaker 1: a spiritual realm. He'd lost his son in the Great 226 00:12:38,650 --> 00:12:42,330 Speaker 1: Influenza of nineteen eighteen. He'd lost his wife, she had 227 00:12:42,370 --> 00:12:45,090 Speaker 1: died quite young. He'd lost his mother, and he really 228 00:12:45,090 --> 00:12:48,090 Speaker 1: missed his mother. The idea that they might still be 229 00:12:48,170 --> 00:12:50,890 Speaker 1: out there somewhere was really important to him, and so 230 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:54,290 Speaker 1: he was absurdly receptive to this idea of fairies at 231 00:12:54,290 --> 00:12:56,490 Speaker 1: the bottom of the garden, despite being not only a 232 00:12:56,530 --> 00:13:00,330 Speaker 1: doctor but also a semi professional photographer. That was wish 233 00:13:00,410 --> 00:13:02,810 Speaker 1: for thinking. And then another example, one of our early 234 00:13:02,890 --> 00:13:07,010 Speaker 1: cautionary tales involved the art forger han van Megrevin, and 235 00:13:07,530 --> 00:13:14,570 Speaker 1: he painted a Vermiir that was designed to appeal to 236 00:13:14,650 --> 00:13:19,090 Speaker 1: a particular art critic who had a particular theory about 237 00:13:19,170 --> 00:13:23,850 Speaker 1: Vermir's career. There were some paintings that had never been found, 238 00:13:24,010 --> 00:13:27,330 Speaker 1: so he'd speculated publicly that he thought Vermiir had painted 239 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:32,370 Speaker 1: this particular Caravaggio influenced canvas, but we'll never know because 240 00:13:32,410 --> 00:13:35,250 Speaker 1: it'll never be found. And then along comes this Caravaggio 241 00:13:35,370 --> 00:13:40,330 Speaker 1: influenced canvas. It was a spearfishing attack really van Megrin 242 00:13:40,410 --> 00:13:45,210 Speaker 1: knew that this critic, Abraham Bradius, believed that this painting 243 00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:48,810 Speaker 1: had been painted, and so he was so vulnerable to 244 00:13:48,890 --> 00:13:53,490 Speaker 1: the con even though really objectively not convincing, but subjectively 245 00:13:53,970 --> 00:13:56,050 Speaker 1: perfect because of the power of wish well thinking. 246 00:13:56,330 --> 00:13:59,610 Speaker 3: Yeah, for wishfall thinking. I mean as a concept, it's 247 00:13:59,650 --> 00:14:02,410 Speaker 3: so interesting. Like when I think of wishful thinking, I 248 00:14:02,450 --> 00:14:06,330 Speaker 3: think of hope, and I think of possibility, and I 249 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:10,810 Speaker 3: think of creativity and pegging your ideas and your mind 250 00:14:10,890 --> 00:14:13,290 Speaker 3: or something where you're not quite sure whether it exists. 251 00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:16,730 Speaker 3: And that's when most discovery exists. You kind of have 252 00:14:16,810 --> 00:14:19,690 Speaker 3: to be a wishful thinker to be creative, to be 253 00:14:19,730 --> 00:14:23,690 Speaker 3: an entrepreneur, to be a scientist. But where it gets 254 00:14:23,730 --> 00:14:28,090 Speaker 3: sad is where people play into the vulnerabilities. Think of 255 00:14:28,170 --> 00:14:30,650 Speaker 3: all the hacks people fall for around their health, like 256 00:14:30,730 --> 00:14:33,530 Speaker 3: the wishful thinking around this vitamin or this drink called 257 00:14:33,610 --> 00:14:36,050 Speaker 3: this thing is going to make you feel better. 258 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:40,970 Speaker 1: So Maria Konnikova, who presents a Pushkin podcast Risky Business, 259 00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:44,850 Speaker 1: but who's also made a study of cons she told 260 00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:48,370 Speaker 1: me she doesn't want to be the kind of person 261 00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:53,130 Speaker 1: who could not be fooled by a con artist, because 262 00:14:53,250 --> 00:14:56,490 Speaker 1: to become that person, you also have to be a 263 00:14:56,490 --> 00:14:58,690 Speaker 1: person who doesn't trust anybody at all. 264 00:14:59,130 --> 00:15:01,450 Speaker 3: Maria's actually in the book because there's points she makes 265 00:15:01,490 --> 00:15:03,530 Speaker 3: that if you can't be wish for and you're not 266 00:15:03,570 --> 00:15:05,490 Speaker 3: open to being conn you're just cynical. 267 00:15:05,970 --> 00:15:06,810 Speaker 2: And there's a. 268 00:15:06,730 --> 00:15:10,170 Speaker 3: Difference between that and just being totally gon and I 269 00:15:10,210 --> 00:15:15,210 Speaker 3: think the difference is that some people don't slow down 270 00:15:15,450 --> 00:15:19,610 Speaker 3: enough to get enough of the right information to make 271 00:15:19,650 --> 00:15:20,690 Speaker 3: a good decision. 272 00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:22,530 Speaker 2: And that's the real problem. 273 00:15:22,730 --> 00:15:25,210 Speaker 3: Where do you go to find reliable factor information to 274 00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:28,770 Speaker 3: make a decision in a high risk situation? So most 275 00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:31,610 Speaker 3: bad trust decisions are made very quickly. 276 00:15:32,890 --> 00:15:36,570 Speaker 1: Interesting. Thank you, Rachel, Rachel Botsman and I will be 277 00:15:36,650 --> 00:15:41,130 Speaker 1: back after the break for more questions of trust. 278 00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:48,370 Speaker 2: We are back. 279 00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:52,010 Speaker 1: You are listening to a special Q and a episode 280 00:15:52,170 --> 00:15:55,330 Speaker 1: of Cautionary Tales. I am Tim Harford. I'm here in 281 00:15:55,370 --> 00:15:58,970 Speaker 1: the studio with Rachel Botsman, the author of How To 282 00:15:59,050 --> 00:16:02,930 Speaker 1: Trust and Be Trusted, and we're answering your questions on trust. 283 00:16:03,570 --> 00:16:07,810 Speaker 1: Another question, yes, okay, right? Andy in Connecticut writes that 284 00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:12,090 Speaker 1: my whole life, people, often complete strangers, have been entrusting 285 00:16:12,170 --> 00:16:14,730 Speaker 1: me with their secrets. They always say the same thing. 286 00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:17,210 Speaker 1: I've never told anyone this. I don't know why I'm 287 00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:20,570 Speaker 1: telling you. I don't probe, I don't pressure. Most of 288 00:16:20,610 --> 00:16:23,890 Speaker 1: the time we're just chatting. The thing is they are right, 289 00:16:24,810 --> 00:16:28,330 Speaker 1: they can trust me. I'm not a judgmental person, and 290 00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:32,050 Speaker 1: I'm dedicated to the principle of keeping secrets. As they 291 00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:36,570 Speaker 1: say in Seinfeld, it's in the vault. But his question is, 292 00:16:37,770 --> 00:16:40,890 Speaker 1: how do they know that after just fifteen minutes of chatting. 293 00:16:41,370 --> 00:16:44,690 Speaker 1: Is there such a thing as a trust aura? I 294 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:47,090 Speaker 1: love this question. It's quite a weird question. I like it. 295 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:50,010 Speaker 3: I love this question too because Andy I have the 296 00:16:50,130 --> 00:16:52,690 Speaker 3: same I know if it's a gift or a problem 297 00:16:52,810 --> 00:16:56,610 Speaker 3: because I can't tell you the stuff that people tell me, 298 00:16:56,970 --> 00:17:01,610 Speaker 3: whether it's friends. But then yeah, like total strangers on 299 00:17:01,610 --> 00:17:03,850 Speaker 3: a plane, this happens to me a lot. 300 00:17:03,930 --> 00:17:04,970 Speaker 2: So I'm with Andy. 301 00:17:05,050 --> 00:17:07,090 Speaker 3: I don't think it's like energy and his aura. But 302 00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:10,970 Speaker 3: he's probably not giving himself enough credit that it's his presence. 303 00:17:11,010 --> 00:17:13,770 Speaker 3: It's the way he's listening, it's the questions that he's asked, 304 00:17:13,770 --> 00:17:17,410 Speaker 3: that he's genuinely curious about that other person, and that 305 00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:19,770 Speaker 3: other person feels a very quick sense. 306 00:17:19,570 --> 00:17:21,330 Speaker 2: Of confidence in them, and you have. 307 00:17:21,250 --> 00:17:24,210 Speaker 3: To be really careful because the worst thing is, you 308 00:17:24,250 --> 00:17:26,170 Speaker 3: know when people say, I shouldn't tell you this because 309 00:17:26,210 --> 00:17:28,650 Speaker 3: someone told me it in secret, And what goes over 310 00:17:28,730 --> 00:17:31,210 Speaker 3: my head is, I'm never telling you anything, right, because 311 00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:32,890 Speaker 3: you've just you've opened the vault. 312 00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:37,770 Speaker 1: The relationship between trust and gossip and trust and secrets 313 00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:40,650 Speaker 1: is an interesting one. If you spread a bit of gossip, 314 00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:44,570 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you are clearly violating trust. You're 315 00:17:44,610 --> 00:17:46,490 Speaker 1: telling a secret that you shouldn't be telling. But at 316 00:17:46,490 --> 00:17:50,810 Speaker 1: the same time, you're building a sort of conspiracy with 317 00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:53,690 Speaker 1: the person you're trusting with the gossip. You're trusting them 318 00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:56,450 Speaker 1: not to tell other people that you were the source. 319 00:17:56,290 --> 00:17:57,410 Speaker 2: Of the gossip. Yeah. 320 00:17:57,410 --> 00:18:00,410 Speaker 3: But I think once that trust has been broken, once 321 00:18:00,810 --> 00:18:04,770 Speaker 3: it's broken, Yeah, they told you and you're telling me, 322 00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:07,810 Speaker 3: so you've kind of given me permission to tell someone else, 323 00:18:07,890 --> 00:18:10,530 Speaker 3: like you've broken the chain. But you know what's really interesting, 324 00:18:10,570 --> 00:18:14,810 Speaker 3: I think secrets aren't the enemy of trust. Actually, people 325 00:18:14,850 --> 00:18:17,170 Speaker 3: that you really trust should be able to keep secrets. 326 00:18:17,610 --> 00:18:22,170 Speaker 3: It's deception. And I think once you actually tell someone 327 00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:24,890 Speaker 3: else's secret, you've come out of that space of secrecy 328 00:18:24,970 --> 00:18:28,170 Speaker 3: into the place of deception. And this applies to leaders 329 00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:30,130 Speaker 3: as well, that they should be able to have secrets 330 00:18:30,170 --> 00:18:33,650 Speaker 3: if we trust them. It's when they deceive us that's 331 00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:35,210 Speaker 3: what's really damaging to trust. 332 00:18:35,370 --> 00:18:37,770 Speaker 1: Yeah. At the same time, if you tell somebody a 333 00:18:37,810 --> 00:18:40,650 Speaker 1: secret and you you confide on them and then you 334 00:18:40,650 --> 00:18:43,450 Speaker 1: say no, you're not allowed to tell anybody else. I've 335 00:18:43,450 --> 00:18:47,850 Speaker 1: heard this described by Dan Savage, the advice columnist. It's like, 336 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:51,330 Speaker 1: if you're queer, you're in the closet, you tell somebody else, 337 00:18:51,530 --> 00:18:53,730 Speaker 1: but they're not allowed to betray your secret either. Well, 338 00:18:53,770 --> 00:18:56,170 Speaker 1: now they're in the closet with you. So in the 339 00:18:56,170 --> 00:18:59,730 Speaker 1: sense that secrets is the way Dan Savage expresses it, 340 00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:02,650 Speaker 1: it's a kind of a burden that you haven't halved' 341 00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:03,850 Speaker 1: you've forced on them. 342 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:04,370 Speaker 2: Yeah. 343 00:19:04,410 --> 00:19:07,250 Speaker 3: I think it's actually a really good point because a 344 00:19:07,290 --> 00:19:10,250 Speaker 3: good friend or someone who's very self aware, they were 345 00:19:10,370 --> 00:19:14,490 Speaker 3: asked for permission. I'd really love to share something with you. 346 00:19:15,090 --> 00:19:18,210 Speaker 3: It might impact how you see so and so. Is 347 00:19:18,250 --> 00:19:21,850 Speaker 3: it okay? I think sometimes we are in a culture 348 00:19:21,850 --> 00:19:26,250 Speaker 3: of oversharing, and we don't sometimes ask for that permission 349 00:19:26,370 --> 00:19:29,010 Speaker 3: to offload that thing on the other person, and therefore 350 00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:31,570 Speaker 3: they can't carry it they have to break the trust. 351 00:19:32,770 --> 00:19:34,810 Speaker 3: I have one for you, tim that I think will 352 00:19:34,810 --> 00:19:37,250 Speaker 3: be of interest. It's from a listener called Nagar, and 353 00:19:37,290 --> 00:19:42,330 Speaker 3: she writes, Dear cautionary Crewe, I'm curious about trust within cults. 354 00:19:42,690 --> 00:19:45,090 Speaker 3: I was in Montana during the heyday of the Church 355 00:19:45,290 --> 00:19:50,730 Speaker 3: Universal Triumphant. Their leader, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, famously predicted the 356 00:19:50,850 --> 00:19:53,490 Speaker 3: end of the world and ordered all of her followers 357 00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:56,250 Speaker 3: to take extreme measures to be prepared for it. I 358 00:19:56,330 --> 00:20:00,530 Speaker 3: remember this story when it also famously felt to take place. 359 00:20:00,970 --> 00:20:04,010 Speaker 3: Her followers didn't seem to lose any of their trust 360 00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:08,130 Speaker 3: in her. Instead, they stuck with her under the rationale 361 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:12,290 Speaker 3: that her prediction and their evasive action had in fact 362 00:20:12,490 --> 00:20:17,570 Speaker 3: prevented the predicted apocalypse from taking place. How can this 363 00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:21,170 Speaker 3: kind of blind trust prevail in the face of such 364 00:20:21,330 --> 00:20:25,290 Speaker 3: obvious and abundance evidence to the contrary. I've wondered about 365 00:20:25,290 --> 00:20:27,210 Speaker 3: this story, so I'd love for you to answer this question. 366 00:20:27,410 --> 00:20:30,490 Speaker 1: Well, I'll have a go. I mean, it's really an 367 00:20:30,530 --> 00:20:36,130 Speaker 1: exact replay of an earlier incident involving an end of 368 00:20:36,170 --> 00:20:41,690 Speaker 1: the world cult called the Seekers, which operated in Chicago 369 00:20:41,810 --> 00:20:45,490 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, and like a lot of other 370 00:20:45,490 --> 00:20:48,130 Speaker 1: cults that the world's going to end, the aliens are 371 00:20:48,130 --> 00:20:50,330 Speaker 1: going to come, they'll destroy the world. But if you 372 00:20:50,570 --> 00:20:54,290 Speaker 1: believe in the message of the aliens, and you act 373 00:20:54,330 --> 00:20:57,170 Speaker 1: in the right way, and you remove metal items, take 374 00:20:57,170 --> 00:20:58,890 Speaker 1: the clips out of your bra take the zip out 375 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:02,290 Speaker 1: of your trousers, and the aliens will preserve you. And 376 00:21:02,330 --> 00:21:04,810 Speaker 1: it's all going to happen at midnight on I think 377 00:21:04,810 --> 00:21:07,050 Speaker 1: it was December the twenty third, nineteen fifty three, something 378 00:21:07,090 --> 00:21:09,930 Speaker 1: like this. It was a very specific date. What's interesting 379 00:21:09,930 --> 00:21:13,130 Speaker 1: about that cult is a group of social psychologists had 380 00:21:13,170 --> 00:21:17,530 Speaker 1: found out about them and sent some grad students to 381 00:21:17,570 --> 00:21:20,690 Speaker 1: infiltrate the cult and basically be there on the day 382 00:21:21,490 --> 00:21:25,090 Speaker 1: when the aliens were supposed to arrive. And it's a 383 00:21:25,210 --> 00:21:29,090 Speaker 1: very famous book about this episode called When Prophecy Fails 384 00:21:29,530 --> 00:21:32,290 Speaker 1: because spoiler, the aliens didn't come. The world didn't end. 385 00:21:33,890 --> 00:21:36,890 Speaker 1: And so we covered this story in a very early 386 00:21:36,930 --> 00:21:40,650 Speaker 1: episode of Cautionary Tales called Buried by the Wall Street Crash, 387 00:21:40,890 --> 00:21:46,970 Speaker 1: which was mostly about great economist Irving Fisher, who predicted 388 00:21:47,050 --> 00:21:50,570 Speaker 1: that stocks have reached a new and permanently high plateau. 389 00:21:51,210 --> 00:21:53,890 Speaker 1: He predicted that two weeks before the Wall Street Crash, 390 00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:56,530 Speaker 1: began in nineteen twenty nine and wiped eighty nine percent 391 00:21:56,570 --> 00:22:00,130 Speaker 1: off the value of stocks and destroyed Fisher's reputation. It's 392 00:22:00,210 --> 00:22:04,370 Speaker 1: all about do you change your mind when your forecast 393 00:22:04,410 --> 00:22:08,570 Speaker 1: went wrong? And Fisher didn't, a lot of these cultists didn't. 394 00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:14,250 Speaker 1: And the psychological theory that was promulgated was called cognitive dissonance. 395 00:22:15,170 --> 00:22:18,250 Speaker 1: So the basic idea is you've got two different ideas 396 00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:22,170 Speaker 1: in your head. So one is I believed this cult 397 00:22:22,250 --> 00:22:24,970 Speaker 1: leader who told me that the aliens were going to come, 398 00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:28,570 Speaker 1: and the other belief is I'm a perfectly sensible human 399 00:22:28,610 --> 00:22:32,090 Speaker 1: being who does not make bad choices. And then when 400 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:35,890 Speaker 1: those two beliefs are in conflict, you've got to change 401 00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:38,450 Speaker 1: one of them to ease the cognitive dissonance. So which 402 00:22:38,450 --> 00:22:41,090 Speaker 1: one are you going to change? Are you going to say, Okay, 403 00:22:41,410 --> 00:22:44,250 Speaker 1: turns out I'm an idiot, or are you going to say, actually, 404 00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:46,610 Speaker 1: there's some reason, there's some excuse I'm going to make 405 00:22:46,650 --> 00:22:49,690 Speaker 1: on behalf of this cult leader. And in this particular case, 406 00:22:50,210 --> 00:22:53,090 Speaker 1: the people who were most committed to the cult beforehand, 407 00:22:53,330 --> 00:22:55,890 Speaker 1: who you might have expected to feel most betrayed and 408 00:22:55,970 --> 00:22:59,730 Speaker 1: be most angry when the prophecy failed Actually, they doubled down, 409 00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:04,250 Speaker 1: so they started issuing press releases, they started phoning the journalists. Previously, 410 00:23:04,250 --> 00:23:06,290 Speaker 1: they hadn't been very interested in talking to the press, 411 00:23:06,330 --> 00:23:08,370 Speaker 1: but at the very moment where the whole thing just 412 00:23:08,410 --> 00:23:11,610 Speaker 1: seemed absurd, that's when they started calling the Chicago Tribune 413 00:23:11,650 --> 00:23:14,970 Speaker 1: and going, hey, great news, aliens haven't destroyed the world. 414 00:23:15,050 --> 00:23:18,170 Speaker 1: And it's the same story as Naeger is relating. Because 415 00:23:18,210 --> 00:23:22,410 Speaker 1: of our prayers, because of what we did, we successfully 416 00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:25,490 Speaker 1: averted the apocalypse. Aren't we brilliant? That's the theory of 417 00:23:25,490 --> 00:23:29,250 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance. It's incredible. But yeah, all I can say 418 00:23:29,330 --> 00:23:31,290 Speaker 1: is Naga's experience is this is not the first time 419 00:23:31,330 --> 00:23:31,970 Speaker 1: this has happened. 420 00:23:32,210 --> 00:23:34,410 Speaker 3: I think it's one of the most fascinating theories because 421 00:23:34,490 --> 00:23:37,770 Speaker 3: it's like the wrestling of the mind. But it's really 422 00:23:38,210 --> 00:23:42,130 Speaker 3: helpful to understand when it comes to trust, because so 423 00:23:42,410 --> 00:23:47,090 Speaker 3: much of our lives focuses on what we believe, not 424 00:23:47,410 --> 00:23:53,170 Speaker 3: why we believe things, and understanding the motivations behind your belief, 425 00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:57,090 Speaker 3: why you need to believe something is true, why you 426 00:23:57,250 --> 00:24:02,370 Speaker 3: really want to trust that person. It explains misplaced trust 427 00:24:02,770 --> 00:24:05,650 Speaker 3: so well. This is also really helpful in terms of 428 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:09,650 Speaker 3: understanding other people that if you focus on what someone believes, 429 00:24:09,690 --> 00:24:13,170 Speaker 3: it leads to judgment, right, those silly people who believe 430 00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:16,290 Speaker 3: in that cult or in that politician. 431 00:24:15,850 --> 00:24:16,650 Speaker 2: Or whatever it may be. 432 00:24:17,050 --> 00:24:19,490 Speaker 3: But if you really dig deep and say why does 433 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:23,570 Speaker 3: that person need to believe that, it's usually because of some. 434 00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:24,810 Speaker 2: Air of vulnerability. 435 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:29,290 Speaker 3: There's usually some hole in their life that this thing 436 00:24:29,490 --> 00:24:31,410 Speaker 3: or this person is trying to feel. And then you 437 00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:35,490 Speaker 3: come from a place of compassion, not from judgment. They 438 00:24:35,610 --> 00:24:38,210 Speaker 3: have to place their trust somewhere. They may not be 439 00:24:38,330 --> 00:24:39,770 Speaker 3: placing it in the most trustworthy thing. 440 00:24:40,130 --> 00:24:42,970 Speaker 1: I think. Another point that it's worth emphasizing is that 441 00:24:42,970 --> 00:24:47,410 Speaker 1: we are all influenced by the people around us, and fundamentally, 442 00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:50,930 Speaker 1: a lot of what we believe is based not on 443 00:24:51,530 --> 00:24:54,610 Speaker 1: first principles, but on our trust in some authority or another. 444 00:24:55,090 --> 00:24:59,130 Speaker 1: So a friend of mine believes that vaccines cause autism. 445 00:24:59,290 --> 00:25:03,330 Speaker 1: She's wrong, but you know she believes it. I believe 446 00:25:03,410 --> 00:25:08,850 Speaker 1: that carbon dioxide emissions cause climate change, and I'm right. However, 447 00:25:10,130 --> 00:25:12,970 Speaker 1: the reason that she believes that vaccines cause autism and 448 00:25:13,010 --> 00:25:16,210 Speaker 1: that I believe that carbon dioxide emissions cause climate change 449 00:25:16,330 --> 00:25:19,930 Speaker 1: the same basic reason, which is that there are people 450 00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:24,530 Speaker 1: who we trust who've told us that, and they've presented 451 00:25:24,610 --> 00:25:27,850 Speaker 1: us with evidence that makes sense to us, but that 452 00:25:27,890 --> 00:25:31,610 Speaker 1: we're not really qualified to understand. And I believe what 453 00:25:31,690 --> 00:25:35,650 Speaker 1: they believe, not because I've read every scientific paper, not 454 00:25:35,690 --> 00:25:39,810 Speaker 1: because I understand climate physics, but because that's where I've 455 00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:40,570 Speaker 1: placed my trust. 456 00:25:41,050 --> 00:25:41,410 Speaker 2: Yeah. 457 00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:44,130 Speaker 1: Ready for another question, Yeah, let's go for it. We've 458 00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:48,250 Speaker 1: got one from another Andy, and this Andy writes that 459 00:25:48,290 --> 00:25:51,330 Speaker 1: he is a massive fan of yours. Rachel is a 460 00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:54,410 Speaker 1: man of taste. He is a fraud manager, and he 461 00:25:54,450 --> 00:25:57,570 Speaker 1: writes that I often find that victims of fraud are 462 00:25:57,690 --> 00:26:02,410 Speaker 1: too trusting of their scammers, with some evidence suggesting that 463 00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:07,690 Speaker 1: some victims get scammed multiple times. So the question what 464 00:26:07,850 --> 00:26:11,810 Speaker 1: advice would you offer to encourage more trust in good 465 00:26:11,970 --> 00:26:15,690 Speaker 1: fraud advice and to have less trust of the nasty 466 00:26:15,690 --> 00:26:18,010 Speaker 1: little blighters who commit fraud. 467 00:26:19,850 --> 00:26:22,370 Speaker 3: So really hard one to answer, because I feel like 468 00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:28,290 Speaker 3: the foldsters now replicate the trust signals, So like a 469 00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:34,050 Speaker 3: bank sending you a text to authorize a payment, they're 470 00:26:34,170 --> 00:26:37,730 Speaker 3: using the same mechanisms for you to give your trust 471 00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:40,450 Speaker 3: to the wrong personal thing. I fell for one the 472 00:26:40,450 --> 00:26:42,330 Speaker 3: other day, and it's like you have a pass l 473 00:26:42,890 --> 00:26:45,810 Speaker 3: but someone didn't pay the whatever duty, click on this 474 00:26:45,890 --> 00:26:47,290 Speaker 3: link put in your credit card. 475 00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:48,330 Speaker 2: So I did, and that. 476 00:26:48,450 --> 00:26:51,170 Speaker 3: Was so stupid, But it's because I was doing something 477 00:26:51,210 --> 00:26:53,770 Speaker 3: else and I didn't really think, well, who wouldn't pay 478 00:26:53,850 --> 00:26:56,050 Speaker 3: tax and who wouldn't pay the duty? And I think 479 00:26:56,090 --> 00:26:59,530 Speaker 3: it's a huge societal problem as to how we have 480 00:26:59,690 --> 00:27:03,090 Speaker 3: better signals and marks to. 481 00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:05,690 Speaker 2: Know when it's coming from a trustworthy source. 482 00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:07,770 Speaker 1: So in my book How to Make the World That 483 00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:11,610 Speaker 1: Up that the Data Detective in the US, I argued 484 00:27:11,650 --> 00:27:13,770 Speaker 1: that a lot of the mistakes we make when we're 485 00:27:13,810 --> 00:27:18,250 Speaker 1: thinking about statistics that are presented to us on social media, 486 00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:22,130 Speaker 1: they're basically the same mistakes we make when we've presented 487 00:27:22,130 --> 00:27:27,130 Speaker 1: with any factual claim. We are rushed, we are angry 488 00:27:27,250 --> 00:27:30,490 Speaker 1: or otherwise emotional, and that is very often why we 489 00:27:30,530 --> 00:27:33,890 Speaker 1: believe things that we shouldn't believe, because we've actually not 490 00:27:34,050 --> 00:27:37,730 Speaker 1: got the headspace and the calm to really take a 491 00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:41,090 Speaker 1: step back and ponder and think seriously. So the first 492 00:27:41,130 --> 00:27:43,330 Speaker 1: piece of advice I give people when they're thinking about 493 00:27:43,330 --> 00:27:47,450 Speaker 1: a statistical claim is search your feelings. Yeah, quote my 494 00:27:48,010 --> 00:27:53,330 Speaker 1: all time statistical hero, Darth Vader. Searchial feelings, any emotional 495 00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:56,810 Speaker 1: reaction is it's all perfectly valid, but it's not necessarily 496 00:27:56,850 --> 00:27:59,410 Speaker 1: putting you in the space to logically evaluate what's been 497 00:27:59,450 --> 00:28:02,290 Speaker 1: put in front of you. And actually, I think the 498 00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:05,250 Speaker 1: same thing is true for that email that comes in 499 00:28:05,730 --> 00:28:07,570 Speaker 1: that says, oh, by the way, you've sent three hundred 500 00:28:07,570 --> 00:28:10,370 Speaker 1: and ninety nine dollars to somebody via PayPal. If you 501 00:28:10,410 --> 00:28:13,290 Speaker 1: didn't send this transaction, just click here and we'll fix it. 502 00:28:13,530 --> 00:28:19,010 Speaker 1: Just slow down a moment. Is that email real? So 503 00:28:19,090 --> 00:28:21,970 Speaker 1: it's giving yourself that time, it's noticing your emotional reaction. 504 00:28:22,450 --> 00:28:23,730 Speaker 2: I think that's really good advice. 505 00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:28,770 Speaker 1: Ready for another question. This is absolutely your area of expertise. 506 00:28:28,850 --> 00:28:31,410 Speaker 2: I think I think this is something I actually shared. 507 00:28:31,730 --> 00:28:34,130 Speaker 1: Well, the meme may or may not have come from you, Rachel, 508 00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:37,450 Speaker 1: but in any case, Betsy from California has sent it 509 00:28:37,570 --> 00:28:39,810 Speaker 1: to us, and the meme she has sent to us 510 00:28:39,930 --> 00:28:43,570 Speaker 1: says this nineteen ninety eight, don't get into a car 511 00:28:43,610 --> 00:28:47,810 Speaker 1: with strangers two thousand and five. Don't meet strangers from 512 00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:52,130 Speaker 1: the internet twenty eighteen. Use Uber to summon a stranger 513 00:28:52,170 --> 00:28:55,090 Speaker 1: from the Internet and get into their car. She says. 514 00:28:55,330 --> 00:28:59,890 Speaker 1: Many transactions online and off rely on rating systems as 515 00:28:59,930 --> 00:29:03,090 Speaker 1: a proxy for trust. How can we make these systems 516 00:29:03,490 --> 00:29:07,650 Speaker 1: more reliable and less vulnerable to scams and fraud. It's 517 00:29:07,690 --> 00:29:11,090 Speaker 1: a good question, Betty, is my cover te this question? 518 00:29:11,570 --> 00:29:14,250 Speaker 1: I mean, this is how I got into studying trust 519 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:19,530 Speaker 1: was two thousand and six. I first started looking at 520 00:29:19,530 --> 00:29:23,570 Speaker 1: how trust works in these platforms. The investors were really 521 00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:26,450 Speaker 1: interested in the efficiency to match supply and demand. So 522 00:29:26,610 --> 00:29:28,490 Speaker 1: you have something and I want it, and we can 523 00:29:28,490 --> 00:29:30,650 Speaker 1: now be matched. But the piece that no one was 524 00:29:30,690 --> 00:29:34,690 Speaker 1: studying was the trust signals, the trust mechanisms. This is amazing, 525 00:29:34,770 --> 00:29:36,850 Speaker 1: like how are we going to trust strangers? And to 526 00:29:36,970 --> 00:29:40,690 Speaker 1: Betsy's point, like things that we described as hitch hiking 527 00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:45,090 Speaker 1: and dangerous have now become these massive, multi billion dollar platforms. 528 00:29:45,130 --> 00:29:48,930 Speaker 1: Like that's a remarkable thing. Now, the thing that is 529 00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:52,130 Speaker 1: as amazing is that the trust systems, or the reputation 530 00:29:52,290 --> 00:29:58,490 Speaker 1: systems haven't improved that much. Yes, we have far better insurance, 531 00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:02,290 Speaker 1: we have far better identity checks, so checking this person 532 00:30:02,490 --> 00:30:04,450 Speaker 1: who they are, who they say they are. 533 00:30:04,850 --> 00:30:05,890 Speaker 2: We have better. 534 00:30:05,930 --> 00:30:12,130 Speaker 3: Payment mechanisms, but the repute pation system is still Think 535 00:30:12,170 --> 00:30:14,570 Speaker 3: about eBay and the five stars that were given by 536 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:19,290 Speaker 3: Haunted Pirate. We haven't come that far. Now, there are 537 00:30:19,330 --> 00:30:21,890 Speaker 3: some that have got a lot better. Ebimi introduced the 538 00:30:21,890 --> 00:30:24,770 Speaker 3: double blind system, right, so you wouldn't just give a 539 00:30:24,810 --> 00:30:28,370 Speaker 3: good review to get a good review. They introduced context, 540 00:30:28,890 --> 00:30:31,570 Speaker 3: so if I'm traveling with my two kids and I'm 541 00:30:31,610 --> 00:30:34,130 Speaker 3: looking at a place, that's a completely different context than 542 00:30:34,170 --> 00:30:38,370 Speaker 3: say a business traveler. And they just introduced very good 543 00:30:38,410 --> 00:30:43,290 Speaker 3: filters and markers and categories that men it became less subjective. 544 00:30:43,210 --> 00:30:47,930 Speaker 1: Although from my subjective experience, no really bad experiences, but 545 00:30:48,170 --> 00:30:51,570 Speaker 1: several way you get there and you're like, oh, yeah, okay, 546 00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:54,890 Speaker 1: I see how this looks so good on the photos, 547 00:30:54,890 --> 00:30:58,530 Speaker 1: but it's kind of not that great, and then in 548 00:30:58,530 --> 00:31:00,250 Speaker 1: the end you're like, I really want to give a 549 00:31:00,290 --> 00:31:04,290 Speaker 1: three star review, or maybe it's just easier to click 550 00:31:04,330 --> 00:31:06,330 Speaker 1: five stars and contribute to the problem. 551 00:31:06,410 --> 00:31:09,250 Speaker 3: Yes, I stayed in one in Australia recently and it 552 00:31:09,330 --> 00:31:13,530 Speaker 3: described itself as a remote farm getaway, but it was 553 00:31:13,610 --> 00:31:16,450 Speaker 3: literally ten minutes from the equivalent of the twenty five 554 00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:21,010 Speaker 3: the traffic right, not really the remote farm cicadas I 555 00:31:21,050 --> 00:31:23,650 Speaker 3: had in my head. And they also failed to mention 556 00:31:24,130 --> 00:31:27,290 Speaker 3: that it came with a cat. Now, my friend who 557 00:31:27,330 --> 00:31:30,130 Speaker 3: was staying with me is very allergic to cats, and 558 00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:33,810 Speaker 3: I was like, I can't leave a bad review because 559 00:31:34,290 --> 00:31:36,490 Speaker 3: this person is really dependent on the income. 560 00:31:36,930 --> 00:31:39,650 Speaker 2: Sounds like they should mention the cat, the cat and 561 00:31:39,690 --> 00:31:40,370 Speaker 2: the motorway. 562 00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:43,770 Speaker 3: But that feeling of guilt is wrong because you actually 563 00:31:43,810 --> 00:31:46,890 Speaker 3: have a responsibility to the community to protect others. 564 00:31:47,970 --> 00:31:50,970 Speaker 1: But the feeling of guilt is wrong. But it's also real, real, 565 00:31:51,410 --> 00:31:55,210 Speaker 1: and that's a problem for these kind of decentralized trust platforms. 566 00:31:55,410 --> 00:31:57,930 Speaker 3: It is, and also who's responsible for when it goes wrong. 567 00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:01,450 Speaker 3: We still haven't solved that problem. 568 00:32:02,010 --> 00:32:03,930 Speaker 1: Thank you, Rachel. We are going to take a quick 569 00:32:03,970 --> 00:32:08,170 Speaker 1: break and we'll be back soon with more questions of trust. 570 00:32:18,530 --> 00:32:21,530 Speaker 1: We are back. I am sitting with Rachel Botsman and 571 00:32:21,570 --> 00:32:24,650 Speaker 1: we are answering your questions. I should reveal we have 572 00:32:24,730 --> 00:32:26,410 Speaker 1: been for a run together. 573 00:32:26,690 --> 00:32:29,530 Speaker 2: We have you are very well dressed. No one has 574 00:32:29,610 --> 00:32:31,850 Speaker 2: ever accused me of being well dressed. I've meant he 575 00:32:31,930 --> 00:32:32,850 Speaker 2: had lots of clothes on. 576 00:32:33,090 --> 00:32:35,130 Speaker 1: It was a cold day and we weren't running that fast. 577 00:32:35,170 --> 00:32:39,970 Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask about fitness trackers because I've 578 00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:43,930 Speaker 1: become fascinated by these things, these connected watches that will 579 00:32:43,970 --> 00:32:47,530 Speaker 1: measure your heartbeat. They're really just the last few years, 580 00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:50,850 Speaker 1: but they're now ubiquitous. My watch really helped me to 581 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:53,090 Speaker 1: run more and to vary my runs and so on. 582 00:32:53,130 --> 00:32:55,930 Speaker 1: But I'm aware that there are certain risks that first 583 00:32:55,930 --> 00:32:57,330 Speaker 1: of all, I might not be able to trust all 584 00:32:57,330 --> 00:33:00,050 Speaker 1: the data I'm getting from the watch. Second, I might 585 00:33:00,050 --> 00:33:02,530 Speaker 1: not trust the data the watch is revealing about me, 586 00:33:04,330 --> 00:33:07,290 Speaker 1: or third that this training program might not be very 587 00:33:07,290 --> 00:33:10,090 Speaker 1: well suited in principle, which knows I'm an old man, 588 00:33:10,090 --> 00:33:13,170 Speaker 1: but in practice it doesn't seem to take that into consideration. 589 00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:17,530 Speaker 1: So this idea of trusting your body to this thing 590 00:33:17,570 --> 00:33:19,610 Speaker 1: on your wrist, that's what I wanted to get your 591 00:33:19,610 --> 00:33:20,330 Speaker 1: reflections about. 592 00:33:20,490 --> 00:33:22,370 Speaker 3: Yeah, so can I ask do you feel like the 593 00:33:22,410 --> 00:33:23,650 Speaker 3: watches in control of you? 594 00:33:27,050 --> 00:33:32,730 Speaker 1: Hmm, No, But I do. I do care about what 595 00:33:32,770 --> 00:33:33,570 Speaker 1: the watch thinks. 596 00:33:33,890 --> 00:33:34,450 Speaker 2: I do too. 597 00:33:34,770 --> 00:33:37,530 Speaker 1: I do like to sort of get enough activity. I 598 00:33:37,570 --> 00:33:40,770 Speaker 1: don't really care about calories as such, but the watch's 599 00:33:40,930 --> 00:33:44,530 Speaker 1: estimated calorie consumption is sort of an indicator to me 600 00:33:44,610 --> 00:33:46,810 Speaker 1: of how active I've been. I kind of like to 601 00:33:46,810 --> 00:33:48,650 Speaker 1: get that to a particular number, and I get a 602 00:33:48,650 --> 00:33:51,850 Speaker 1: bit fidgety if I haven't. And there is this absurdity, 603 00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:54,490 Speaker 1: of course, if sometimes you forget to wear the watch, 604 00:33:54,610 --> 00:33:56,930 Speaker 1: or you forget to switch it on, and actually it 605 00:33:56,930 --> 00:33:59,050 Speaker 1: doesn't matter because you're still getting the exercise whether or 606 00:33:59,090 --> 00:34:02,410 Speaker 1: not the watch is paying attention. But actually, of course 607 00:34:02,490 --> 00:34:03,170 Speaker 1: it does matter. 608 00:34:03,330 --> 00:34:04,890 Speaker 3: So I've run with people where they say, oh, this 609 00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:06,810 Speaker 3: one doesn't count. I'm like, what do you mean in 610 00:34:06,850 --> 00:34:09,090 Speaker 3: the like because I haven't got my watch, and I'm like, ah, 611 00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:10,050 Speaker 3: it's gone a bit fast. 612 00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:14,690 Speaker 1: I just talked to a sleep scientist at Oxford who 613 00:34:15,290 --> 00:34:19,330 Speaker 1: did an experiment where he got people who were having 614 00:34:19,330 --> 00:34:23,250 Speaker 1: trouble sleeping and gave them a sleep tracker. In the morning, 615 00:34:23,770 --> 00:34:25,730 Speaker 1: they were asked, well, how are you feeling. Are you 616 00:34:25,810 --> 00:34:28,170 Speaker 1: feeling sharp, You're feeling full of energy, and the same 617 00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:31,770 Speaker 1: question was asked at twelve and at three, But after 618 00:34:31,770 --> 00:34:34,770 Speaker 1: they'd first given their feedback how you feeling, the watch 619 00:34:34,770 --> 00:34:37,250 Speaker 1: would tell them, Yeah, you had a terrible night sleep 620 00:34:37,330 --> 00:34:39,850 Speaker 1: or you had a brilliant night's sleep. At the end 621 00:34:39,850 --> 00:34:41,690 Speaker 1: of the day they went back to the sleep clinic 622 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:44,290 Speaker 1: and he said, okay, I'm sorry, but all of that 623 00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:46,850 Speaker 1: was a lie. But what people were told by this 624 00:34:47,330 --> 00:34:50,730 Speaker 1: sleep tracker in the morning governed how they felt all day. 625 00:34:50,850 --> 00:34:53,530 Speaker 1: Totally have a good night's sleep. Your watch told you 626 00:34:53,610 --> 00:34:55,930 Speaker 1: had a bad night's sleep, you will act as though 627 00:34:55,970 --> 00:34:57,730 Speaker 1: you had a bad night's sleep. It's incredible. 628 00:34:58,090 --> 00:35:00,690 Speaker 3: It does really tie to trust, because sometimes we really 629 00:35:00,690 --> 00:35:03,370 Speaker 3: trust things when we want to be in control. And 630 00:35:03,410 --> 00:35:06,570 Speaker 3: so you know, you can see like amazing indicators and 631 00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:08,730 Speaker 3: it is very rewarding, like if you're putting the work 632 00:35:08,730 --> 00:35:10,770 Speaker 3: in all these things, especially as you get older, you 633 00:35:10,810 --> 00:35:13,170 Speaker 3: have to work quite hard at it. But I do 634 00:35:13,250 --> 00:35:16,410 Speaker 3: think when it takes the enjoyment out of it, where 635 00:35:16,450 --> 00:35:19,690 Speaker 3: you can't run without the watch, I know someone who 636 00:35:19,770 --> 00:35:24,250 Speaker 3: runs with three a whoop, a garment, and an apple, okay, 637 00:35:24,290 --> 00:35:29,730 Speaker 3: And that is obsession and that is like clinging onto 638 00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:33,370 Speaker 3: something so tightly. And anyone that's done sport knows that. 639 00:35:33,650 --> 00:35:36,130 Speaker 3: The magic thing about sport is it's a journey into 640 00:35:36,130 --> 00:35:38,730 Speaker 3: the unknown. It's the ultimate trust in yourself. That's why 641 00:35:38,770 --> 00:35:41,770 Speaker 3: I love long distance running, is that you don't know 642 00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:45,450 Speaker 3: what's going to happen when you get over sixteen seventeen 643 00:35:45,490 --> 00:35:49,210 Speaker 3: eighteen kilometers, Like it's so interesting where your mind goes 644 00:35:49,330 --> 00:35:50,330 Speaker 3: and the. 645 00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:54,570 Speaker 2: Watch I do, what's going to happen? Stop, you're going 646 00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:57,290 Speaker 2: to stup? Yeah? I love that. Yeah. 647 00:35:57,450 --> 00:35:59,810 Speaker 3: I usually need the toilet around them, but that's probably 648 00:35:59,810 --> 00:36:02,530 Speaker 3: too much information. But the point is, like a lot 649 00:36:02,570 --> 00:36:05,330 Speaker 3: of trust is it's a confident relationship with the unknown. Right, 650 00:36:05,410 --> 00:36:08,210 Speaker 3: So my watch can tell me exactly today what my 651 00:36:08,290 --> 00:36:11,850 Speaker 3: marathon time is. And it could be boiling hot, it 652 00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:14,530 Speaker 3: could be freezing cold, my niker bloke, it could trip 653 00:36:14,530 --> 00:36:16,850 Speaker 3: on a cut what. So many things can happen, Like, 654 00:36:16,930 --> 00:36:20,050 Speaker 3: I'm gonna be disappointed if I hold onto that time. 655 00:36:20,450 --> 00:36:25,890 Speaker 3: Too much trust in fitness trackers, bad bad thing. I'm 656 00:36:25,890 --> 00:36:30,530 Speaker 3: wearing three. Do you know some of the insurance plans 657 00:36:30,690 --> 00:36:32,890 Speaker 3: like if you measure all these steps that they'll give 658 00:36:32,930 --> 00:36:35,730 Speaker 3: you discounts and things. But I've seen people in airports 659 00:36:35,770 --> 00:36:38,210 Speaker 3: tapping their feet if you're not seeing that, they take 660 00:36:38,250 --> 00:36:40,330 Speaker 3: the watch off, they put it round their ankle to 661 00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:41,410 Speaker 3: keep up their step count. 662 00:36:41,930 --> 00:36:43,490 Speaker 2: I've seen it on the train people do that. 663 00:36:43,610 --> 00:36:47,490 Speaker 3: Like that's that's too much, right. I have one last 664 00:36:47,530 --> 00:36:50,010 Speaker 3: question for you, Tim. I love this question. It caught 665 00:36:50,050 --> 00:36:55,130 Speaker 3: my eye. It's from Cayenne in New York State. So, Tim, 666 00:36:55,490 --> 00:36:58,490 Speaker 3: why do people trust podcasters so much? Even on topics 667 00:36:58,810 --> 00:37:00,570 Speaker 3: they aren't knowledgeable about? 668 00:37:01,450 --> 00:37:07,290 Speaker 1: Ah, I feel seen. I mean, there's a good question, 669 00:37:08,370 --> 00:37:12,250 Speaker 1: but I think that people trust cautionary tails and they 670 00:37:12,250 --> 00:37:17,850 Speaker 1: trust other podcasters because trust is often placed not on 671 00:37:17,890 --> 00:37:22,330 Speaker 1: the basis of a rational assessment of expertise on other intuitions. 672 00:37:22,730 --> 00:37:26,050 Speaker 1: So do I like this person? Do I know this person? 673 00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:30,250 Speaker 1: People have me in their ears every week they get 674 00:37:30,330 --> 00:37:33,450 Speaker 1: used to my voice. I feel like someone they really know, 675 00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:36,930 Speaker 1: and somebody you really know is somebody you can trust, right, 676 00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:40,210 Speaker 1: So that's part of it. Or maybe I sound fluent, 677 00:37:40,770 --> 00:37:43,610 Speaker 1: I have a nice accent. I don't stumble over my words. 678 00:37:43,610 --> 00:37:45,330 Speaker 1: Of course, I don't stumble over my words, because I've 679 00:37:45,370 --> 00:37:47,810 Speaker 1: got a producer cutting all the uns and the ears 680 00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:52,410 Speaker 1: out or retaking if I stumble. But because I sound fluent, 681 00:37:52,490 --> 00:37:55,770 Speaker 1: well that also sounds trustworthy. And these are just proxies 682 00:37:56,290 --> 00:37:58,890 Speaker 1: for actually being deserving of trust. But I think they're 683 00:37:58,930 --> 00:38:03,010 Speaker 1: proxies that that work. You're the expert on trust, Does 684 00:38:03,050 --> 00:38:03,850 Speaker 1: that make sense to you? 685 00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:06,890 Speaker 3: So if you think about the way trust used to 686 00:38:06,930 --> 00:38:11,250 Speaker 3: work was who that person, and war was what they 687 00:38:11,250 --> 00:38:16,010 Speaker 3: were saying, and then lastly, how they made that person feel, 688 00:38:16,450 --> 00:38:20,890 Speaker 3: and that has completely been inverted. So Number one is 689 00:38:21,170 --> 00:38:24,410 Speaker 3: we make most trust decisions, particularly through social media or 690 00:38:24,450 --> 00:38:29,170 Speaker 3: audio content, based on feeling how that person makes you feel, 691 00:38:29,650 --> 00:38:33,130 Speaker 3: and then who they are and then what they say. 692 00:38:33,970 --> 00:38:38,370 Speaker 3: And that's why people that make us feel comfortable. You know, 693 00:38:38,410 --> 00:38:41,370 Speaker 3: there's some podcasts and it does literally feel like Kirsy 694 00:38:41,410 --> 00:38:43,530 Speaker 3: Young does this, like if I'm stressed, just turn But 695 00:38:43,570 --> 00:38:46,170 Speaker 3: there's others that are funny, and there's others that are salacious. 696 00:38:46,210 --> 00:38:50,570 Speaker 3: But it's such an important point because people with feeling 697 00:38:50,690 --> 00:38:53,530 Speaker 3: that understand that mechanism how I make you feel is 698 00:38:53,530 --> 00:38:55,850 Speaker 3: whether you're going to engage with me, they are the 699 00:38:55,890 --> 00:38:59,730 Speaker 3: ones rising to the top more so than ever before. 700 00:39:00,490 --> 00:39:02,570 Speaker 1: So there we go. Thank you so much for sending 701 00:39:02,570 --> 00:39:05,010 Speaker 1: in your questions, and thank you so much to Rachel 702 00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:08,170 Speaker 1: Batsman for answering them. Rachel, this has been a lot 703 00:39:08,170 --> 00:39:08,570 Speaker 1: of fun. 704 00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:11,450 Speaker 2: It has. Yes, we've gone all over the place. 705 00:39:11,850 --> 00:39:16,050 Speaker 1: So Rachel's audiobook is How to Trust and Be Trusted. 706 00:39:16,090 --> 00:39:19,930 Speaker 1: It's available via pushkin. Rachel, you also have a newsletter 707 00:39:19,970 --> 00:39:21,890 Speaker 1: remind us of the name and where people can sign 708 00:39:21,970 --> 00:39:22,690 Speaker 1: up for it. 709 00:39:22,690 --> 00:39:25,690 Speaker 3: It's called Rethink and it's on substack and I love 710 00:39:25,730 --> 00:39:27,250 Speaker 3: writing it, I genuinely do. 711 00:39:28,330 --> 00:39:31,290 Speaker 1: We will be back again next week with another classic 712 00:39:31,330 --> 00:39:33,930 Speaker 1: episode of cautionary Tales. In the meantime, if you have 713 00:39:33,970 --> 00:39:38,010 Speaker 1: a question for us for our next episode of cautionary questions, 714 00:39:38,410 --> 00:39:41,850 Speaker 1: please send it in the email addresses tales at Pushkin 715 00:39:41,890 --> 00:39:44,730 Speaker 1: dot fm. That is t a l e s at 716 00:39:44,730 --> 00:39:48,450 Speaker 1: Pushkin dot fm. Send in those questions because we do 717 00:39:48,690 --> 00:39:57,930 Speaker 1: love hearing from you. Thank you for listening. For a 718 00:39:57,970 --> 00:40:00,610 Speaker 1: full list of our sources, see the show notes at 719 00:40:00,650 --> 00:40:07,250 Speaker 1: Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales has written by me Tim Harford, 720 00:40:07,330 --> 00:40:11,290 Speaker 1: with Andrew Wright, Plis Fine and Ryan Dilly. It's produced 721 00:40:11,290 --> 00:40:15,010 Speaker 1: by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and 722 00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:19,010 Speaker 1: original music are the work of Pascal Wise. Additional sound 723 00:40:19,010 --> 00:40:23,330 Speaker 1: design is by Carlos San Juan at Brain Audio. Bend 724 00:40:23,330 --> 00:40:27,370 Speaker 1: A Dafhaffrey edited the scripts. The show features the voice 725 00:40:27,370 --> 00:40:32,010 Speaker 1: talents of Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough, Sarah jupp 726 00:40:32,290 --> 00:40:36,970 Speaker 1: Messeam Monroe, Jamal Westman, and rufus Wright. The show also 727 00:40:37,050 --> 00:40:39,930 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, 728 00:40:40,050 --> 00:40:44,890 Speaker 1: Greta Cohne, Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, 729 00:40:45,210 --> 00:40:49,810 Speaker 1: Kira Posey, and Owen Miller. Pautionary Tales is a production 730 00:40:49,930 --> 00:40:54,330 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardore Studios in London 731 00:40:54,610 --> 00:40:58,170 Speaker 1: by Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember 732 00:40:58,210 --> 00:41:01,050 Speaker 1: to share, rate and review. It really makes a difference 733 00:41:01,090 --> 00:41:02,650 Speaker 1: to us and if you want to hear the show, 734 00:41:02,850 --> 00:41:06,010 Speaker 1: add free sign up to Pushkin Plus on the show 735 00:41:06,050 --> 00:41:09,970 Speaker 1: page on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fam slash 736 00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:12,370 Speaker 1: plus