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Speaker 1: M hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: explain that we're we've got kind of a weird week

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Speaker 1: going on. As you notice, we'll be dropping three episodes

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Speaker 1: this week, uh last week, two weeks ago by the

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Speaker 1: time you hear this. I went to unite the Right

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Speaker 1: two point oh the Nazi gathering in d C and

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Speaker 1: counter protested it with a bunch of people, um, other activists,

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Speaker 1: And so rather than hosting this with a guest comedian,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm hosting it with another house stuff Works host

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Speaker 1: bridget Todd, who hosts afropunk solution sessions and stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never told You, And I'm I'm there with a couple

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Speaker 1: of different DC based activists who we all sort of

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Speaker 1: marched and unite the Right two point oh together and

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Speaker 1: yield at Nazis together. So that's who I'll be with.

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Speaker 1: It'll have a different feeld from a normal episode. So

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Speaker 1: we we included another normal episode this week so those

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Speaker 1: of you who just want the normal thing can get

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Speaker 1: the normal thing. And then we have this kind of

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Speaker 1: weird two parter about the modern fascist movement in the Marorca.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully you'll like all of it if you don't.

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Speaker 1: There should still be something for you here. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evanson. This is Behind the Bastards, the show

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Speaker 1: where we tell you everything you don't know about the

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Speaker 1: very worst people in all of history. Now, normally we

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Speaker 1: record this story in a comfortable little recording studio in

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles, but this week I am in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: For Unite the Right two point oh, which has been

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Speaker 1: build a white civil rights rally by racists and a

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Speaker 1: fascist march on Washington, d C. By everybody else. I'm

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Speaker 1: here with a group of d C and and East

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Speaker 1: Coast in general locals, and we're all gonna be marching together.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you guys introduce yourselves. Hi, I'm Hanna Essenger.

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Speaker 1: I live in Roanoke, Virginia, and in my podcast is

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Speaker 1: The Kitchen Table Fault. And I'm here because I grew

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Speaker 1: up in this world and I'd like to fight against it.

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Speaker 1: My name is Nick Wood. I was a marine, and

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Speaker 1: I also grew up in very conservative circles, and uh

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Speaker 1: I likewise, I feel the need to fight back again

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Speaker 1: my old people. Um. I'm Bridget Todd. I'm the host

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Speaker 1: of two podcasts on this very network. Stuff I've never

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Speaker 1: told you in Afropunk Solution sessions. I live here in

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Speaker 1: d C. And DC is my home, and so when

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Speaker 1: Nazis come to my home, I have to show them

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Speaker 1: they're not welcome. Yeah, and I just don't like Nazis.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, so I've spent because I don't like Nazis,

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Speaker 1: I've spent most of the last two weeks reading everything

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Speaker 1: they've said to each other on the Internet. So there's

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Speaker 1: this group of journalism collective called Unicorn Riot, and over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of years they have gotten dozens of

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Speaker 1: leaks of like huge chunks of chat logs between all

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Speaker 1: of these different far right groups, the Traditional Workers Party

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Speaker 1: uh and and anti comm and like groups that are

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Speaker 1: essentially Nazi groups. Um. So that's what this podcast is about.

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Speaker 1: We've taken all of their conversations. I've read them, I've

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Speaker 1: I've analyzed them. Uh And, so we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: today about the first post two thousand sixteen wave of

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Speaker 1: American fascist activists. Uh So, Yeah, I'm just gonna get

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Speaker 1: into it. Um. I'd like to give a start by

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Speaker 1: giving an overthrow view of the folks were talking about. So,

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Speaker 1: the Traditional Workers Party or t w P, was a

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Speaker 1: far right group that was profiled in that New York

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Speaker 1: Times article A Voice of Hate in America's Heartland. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's the article that got widely panned for the New

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Speaker 1: York Times, basically giving a Nazi a big platform to

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Speaker 1: talk about being a Nazi. We've never done that before. Um.

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Speaker 1: And the the t WP, like most of these groups,

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Speaker 1: claims not to support racism, but they also sold swatsticka

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Speaker 1: arm bands on their website, so you know, you can

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Speaker 1: make that judgment for yourself. They dissolved earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: not because the government rated them, but because their leader

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Speaker 1: was caught having sex with his spokesman's wife and his

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Speaker 1: spokesman was also his father in law. Uh. And so

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Speaker 1: the spokesman deleted their website. Uh. And yeah, but some

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Speaker 1: of these guys are still active. Yeah. I love that.

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Speaker 1: Even though they're these like Nazis, they still have messy

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Speaker 1: personal and we'll be getting into that a little later.

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Speaker 1: They all got messy, messy personal stuff, um the master. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Anti comm is another one of these groups, and

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Speaker 1: they're big source of a lot of the conversations I read.

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Speaker 1: They were billed as a right wing counter to Antifa.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read a quote from their spokesman that

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Speaker 1: shows sort of how they marketed themselves to the world.

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Speaker 1: Quote from the beginning, We've attempted to make it clear

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Speaker 1: that though we defend free speech, we do not have

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Speaker 1: and will never have, an official political platform. We accepted

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Speaker 1: members regardless of ethnicity or gender, provided that they agree

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Speaker 1: with the cause and can satisfy the physical requirements to join,

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Speaker 1: although the political and racial makeup of our members varies wildly.

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Speaker 1: We have Korean libertarians, gay and archo capitalists, Latino nationalists,

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Speaker 1: and even some liberals interests. Our common mission has prevented

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Speaker 1: us from splitting over such political lines. That's all lies,

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Speaker 1: because you can read what these people said to each

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Speaker 1: other in private on discord, and it's stuff like freedom

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Speaker 1: of speech is merely a tool used to be able

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Speaker 1: to persuade the masses. We want to destroy anti FA

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Speaker 1: because they're Marxists. In this message from a guy named

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Speaker 1: King Bobo Man, I'm all for no race mixing, even

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Speaker 1: if it is fascist in practice. So as we'll get

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Speaker 1: into anti com was part of like an attempt to

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Speaker 1: sort of rebrand the far right as an opposition to

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Speaker 1: communism rather than a nationalist racist group. Racist. We have

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Speaker 1: black friends, Yeah, we have we have black friends. Look

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Speaker 1: at this, Look at this one guy who's not white

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Speaker 1: that we brought to the rally. Like, see, we're fine. Um.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of them will admit behind closed doors

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Speaker 1: to being fascists, like this quote from February of two

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Speaker 1: seventeen from a user named Max and the Anti comm server.

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Speaker 1: I'm both and cap and a fascist. I think either

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Speaker 1: can work, so I'd be okay with either. Which if

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Speaker 1: you're in anarchic any kind of anarchist, you can't also

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Speaker 1: be a fascist. They don't work together, guys, But they're dumb.

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Speaker 1: These are all dumb. Um. Another big group of fascists

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Speaker 1: in our modern world, or the Oregon Nazis, they're not

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Speaker 1: one distinct group. Patriot Prayer is an Oregon based far right.

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Speaker 1: I would call them fascist group. They're the people who

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Speaker 1: were just active in the big Portland protest um. They

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Speaker 1: had a discord server called Cascadian Coffee Company that was

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Speaker 1: a general all of the fascists and Oregon uh talk

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Speaker 1: on this channel, so we'll be hearing a lot from

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Speaker 1: them today. Um, there are a lot of groups we

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Speaker 1: could get into. Vanguard America is one the Nazi who

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Speaker 1: killed Heather Hair at Charlottesville last year was a member

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Speaker 1: of Van Guard America. UM. They split up recently into

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Speaker 1: Patriot Front identity Europa is basically a Nazi group, couched

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Speaker 1: and we're just proud to be European, but we also

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Speaker 1: want all immigration to end. Um. They were at Charlottesville too.

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Speaker 1: There's the League of the South, There's there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of different groups of racists in Europe. Yes, Richard Spencer

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Speaker 1: just got stopped from going, i think, to the Netherlands

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Speaker 1: to try to give a speech. Yeah. Yeah, well Europe,

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Speaker 1: Europe seeing what happens if you let Nazis march. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't end well. Um. So this brings us to Jason Kessler.

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Speaker 1: He's the single person who best embodies the first wave

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Speaker 1: of modern American fascism. He graduated from the University of

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Speaker 1: Virginia in two thousand and nine with the BA and psychology.

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Speaker 1: He seems to have been at one point a Democrat

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Speaker 1: who voted for Barack Obama. He claims to have been

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Speaker 1: at Occupy Wall Street in two thousand eleven. And in

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Speaker 1: my time and pouring through archived Nazi chats, I found

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Speaker 1: that a lot of fascist activists have a similar background,

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Speaker 1: and one conversation from last May, a user named Yarbal's

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Speaker 1: talked about his time with Occupy and said, back then,

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Speaker 1: I just hated the banks in the Fiat system, not

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Speaker 1: the parentheses, parenthesis parentheses, banks in the parentheses parentheses parentheses,

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Speaker 1: Fiat system, which is Nazi. When they when they put

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Speaker 1: three uh those marks on either side, it means they're

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Speaker 1: talking about Jewish people, Like that's one of the coded

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Speaker 1: phrases they have. So one of the weird things about

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Speaker 1: these guys that they try to hide from the right

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Speaker 1: wing activists that they're trying to like cozy up to

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Speaker 1: because they're trying to pull a lot more of the

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Speaker 1: American conservatives their way. But these guys are all pretty

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Speaker 1: anti capitalist because they're they're actual Nazis, Like they they

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Speaker 1: believe in having a strong social welfare system just for

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Speaker 1: white people, like that's part of why they want to

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Speaker 1: kick everybody else out. But they try to hide that

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Speaker 1: because they know that the modern American right wing won't

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Speaker 1: get on board with it. I don't know. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: also anti Marxist. This makes no sense. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll talk about how good they are at

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Speaker 1: it in a little bit. So most of these guys,

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Speaker 1: if you like, if you search through like the chats,

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Speaker 1: just search for the term red pilled um and it'll

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Speaker 1: you'll find a bunch of conversations where various Nazi activists

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Speaker 1: talk about how they first got radicalized, essentially, and almost

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Speaker 1: all of their journeys start on YouTube. Um. One of

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Speaker 1: the videos that I found a number of people commenting

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Speaker 1: on was called the Lion of Europe or Hitler the Lion,

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Speaker 1: and it gets removed a lot, but the video is essentially, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's edited like a movie trailer. It's like a little

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Speaker 1: four minute video and it starts with like a dramatic

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Speaker 1: voiceover and like clips from the movie three hundred and

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Speaker 1: clips from various World War two movies that show Nazis fighting,

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Speaker 1: interspersed with like Gears of War and video game clips,

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Speaker 1: and there's like this voiceover talking about Uh. It's basically

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's telling like a what's the one I'm

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Speaker 1: looking for here? It's a guy giving a story that's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be Yeah, it's a propaganda piece, but it's

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Speaker 1: framed as like an apocryphal story about like a lion

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Speaker 1: fighting jackals, and obviously the jackals are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: everybody that's not white people. Yeah, it's exactly. I've heard

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Speaker 1: lion imagery used using conjunction with Trump too. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's like the they're not they don't veil it

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Speaker 1: that much. Yeah. So it's like one of the things

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Speaker 1: that's interesting to me is that this video and a

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Speaker 1: couple of other little videos I found, it's a mix

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Speaker 1: of like historical footage, movie footage, but also video game

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Speaker 1: clips because these guys are all gamers, Like that's a

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Speaker 1: huge recruiting ground for the farm. Their practice in gamer Gate,

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Speaker 1: a lot of them did, if you so if you

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Speaker 1: search gamer Gate and the archives, you'll find a number

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Speaker 1: of people talking about having first like that was their

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Speaker 1: first experience and activism was gamer Gate. Um, and it

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Speaker 1: led a lot of them to the election, which the

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Speaker 1: term online and like alright, circles is the great meme war. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really like they're very lame. It's frustrating to have

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Speaker 1: to take the it's seriously now. Yeah. Well, and what's

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Speaker 1: funny to me is that the far right activists that

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Speaker 1: when they like the so the actual nazis the people

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Speaker 1: who are in the groups that will be marching today

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Speaker 1: Unite the Right two point. Oh. They tend to call

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Speaker 1: the r alt right the alt light and they make

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Speaker 1: fun of them too. Um, they don't like them, but

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Speaker 1: they see them as a recruiting ground. So like the

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Speaker 1: alt right hasn't been isn't like they're closer to where

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Speaker 1: these people want the Nazis, Yeah, yeah it is. It's

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Speaker 1: like r OTC. It's where their kids come up. Um.

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Speaker 1: But there's also like, uh, where is it? Um. You'll

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Speaker 1: also find like frustration expressed from far right activists about

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Speaker 1: gamers and stuff, Like I found quotes from a couple

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Speaker 1: of people like complaining that their discord chat had a server,

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Speaker 1: had like a chat room for video games, but didn't

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Speaker 1: have anything focused on exercise and weightlifting and fighting. And

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Speaker 1: he was like like, we're focused, Like you guys are

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Speaker 1: too big and nerds basically, and you're making us look

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Speaker 1: bad because you come out to these protests and your

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Speaker 1: chubby and like, you don't look good in your armor.

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Speaker 1: You don't look scary, you don't look like the master

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Speaker 1: race like the Nazi. Yeah, even Nazis don't like Nazis.

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Speaker 1: You end up looking like a third string Ninja Turtle.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So um. Back to Jason Kesler a little bit.

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Speaker 1: He's the guy who organized Unite the Right, the original

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Speaker 1: Unite the Right rally um, which was the second rally

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Speaker 1: that Nazis had carried out in Charlottesville. There was a

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Speaker 1: few weeks before Unite the Right, like a torchlent march

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Speaker 1: um that was sort of the precursor to, uh, the

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Speaker 1: first bloody Charlottesville battle. And he's the guy who organized

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Speaker 1: this most recent thing. He also used to write for

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Speaker 1: a website called The Daily Caller, which is owned by

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson and it's the home of Ben Shapiro on

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Speaker 1: the Internet. I've heard of these Oh good have you been?

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Speaker 1: Have you? Have you personally attacked by benchfu? Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know you're a so and so and DC like left

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Speaker 1: you advising when they did he afree your money to

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Speaker 1: debate him. I wish. I mean, you know, he is

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Speaker 1: the kind of person that has to pay money to

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Speaker 1: get a woman to talk to him. And so Jason

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Speaker 1: Kessler used to write for yeah, the Daily collar the

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Speaker 1: same site he did, and he got to write about

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Speaker 1: the first Charlotte skill rally for them, which now and

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Speaker 1: and and in all fairness, the Daily Callers editor at

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Speaker 1: the time, Paul Connor, said that the story he wrote

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Speaker 1: was factually accurate and plainly stated what happened. And when

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Speaker 1: I say he plainly or when Paul Connor says he

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Speaker 1: plainly stated what happened, what he means is that Kessler

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Speaker 1: said that the torch lit march was visually striking and

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Speaker 1: then conspicuously quoted a black person who praised the marchers

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Speaker 1: as being good people. Um, so that's that's that's a

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Speaker 1: factually accurate and plainly stated version of the events of

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Speaker 1: that march. Um. But they didn't note the fact that

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Speaker 1: he had organized the rally, which you should do as

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Speaker 1: a journalist. If you organize a rally and then report

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Speaker 1: on it could be considered one you're certainly supposed to

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Speaker 1: let people know. Seems like it might be one ethics man. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and if you're if you're a fascist organizer, you should

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Speaker 1: probably let people know that too before you report on

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Speaker 1: a fascist gathering, and don't mention any of the fascism um,

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Speaker 1: which he did not. Uh Now. Also, in fairness to

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Speaker 1: the Daily collar they pulled Kessler's articles and ended their

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Speaker 1: relationship with him. Once it became very clear to the

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Speaker 1: entire world that Jason Kessler was a Nazi fascist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because he was an open Nazi instead of just a

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Speaker 1: wink wink nod nod Nazi. And that's we'll be getting

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Speaker 1: into the wink wink not not part a couple of

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Speaker 1: points in this, But that is an important thing is

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Speaker 1: that like these guys, their whole goal is to get

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Speaker 1: the rest of the right on board with them and

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Speaker 1: essentially pull moderate conservatives further to the right. And there's

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Speaker 1: a substantial amount of evidence that that's worked. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Laura Ingram just got on Fox News and made comments

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Speaker 1: about how like an immigration is changing the nature nature

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Speaker 1: of the country and we're losing our culture and stuff,

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Speaker 1: was like and we didn't vote for this, yes, which

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Speaker 1: actually did so. Um a little bit back to some history.

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Speaker 1: Right after that march that Jason Kessler covered in The

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Speaker 1: Daily Caller UH next month, in June of two seventeen,

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Speaker 1: Kessler started a Facebook group to try to plan the

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Speaker 1: Unite the Right rally UM and he started going around

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Speaker 1: online and in person to a variety of different fascist

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Speaker 1: activist groups. He made contact with Richard Spencer, Matthew Heinbach

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Speaker 1: of the Traditional Workers Party the League of the South.

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Speaker 1: He also became a member of the Proud Boys, which

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Speaker 1: is a group funded and founded by vice co founder

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Speaker 1: Gavin McGinnis. Uh Now, Jason Kessler's goal seemed to have

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Speaker 1: been to make himself a bridge between the disparate rings

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Speaker 1: of wings of the alt right. He basically wanted to

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Speaker 1: be like the central spoke in the Nazi wheel. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of how he was trying to set himself up

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Speaker 1: as and that was the goal of the Unite the

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Speaker 1: Right rally. It was a heady time to be a fascist, hm.

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Speaker 1: It was a heady time to be a fascist activist

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Speaker 1: because Donald Trump had just gotten elected, the alt right

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Speaker 1: was in the news, and these guys kind of figured, well,

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Speaker 1: now is the time for us to tip our hands

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Speaker 1: and to get into politics and just see where the

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Speaker 1: waters are. So they were hoping that Unite the Right

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Speaker 1: would be like a coming out party for the political

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Speaker 1: far far far fascist right of the Nazis. Exactly. It

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Speaker 1: was the Nazi Debutante Ball, and of course it was

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Speaker 1: an incredibly bloody ship show. Um. Yeah, that's what nazis.

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Speaker 1: That's the only thing Nazis do. Um. And at the

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Speaker 1: time it was widely seen as a disaster for the

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Speaker 1: white national movement, or that that was that's debatable. It

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Speaker 1: was definitely a disaster, a disaster for Kessler who got

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Speaker 1: dropped from the Daily Wire and disavowed as a proud

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Speaker 1: boy when he became, you know, famous for being a racist. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There was a court case levied against him, which is

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Speaker 1: still in process. Signs versus Kessler. Uh. It's basically alleges

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Speaker 1: that Kessler and other organizers including Richard Spencer and Matthew

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Speaker 1: Hinbach had been part of quote, a direct conspiracy to

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Speaker 1: commit violence. Um. Now, they obviously claim this was a

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Speaker 1: peaceful rally was just for political purposes, but the things

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Speaker 1: that they set online and discord and on Twitter, um,

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Speaker 1: even in the open, sort of bellayed that The anti

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Speaker 1: com official Twitter, like right before Charlottesville tweeted a picture

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Speaker 1: of Hitler and several leading Nazis in an open topped

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Speaker 1: car and the text on the image read, get in, loser,

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Speaker 1: We're invading Charlottesville. Yeah. It seems like a pretty clear

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Speaker 1: Yeah Hitler in a in a truck, Yeah, with a

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Speaker 1: bunch of Nazis around him, Like he's not He's definitely

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Speaker 1: not going anywhere for like, they're not going shopping, yeah, refling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Hitler didn't go places to not be violent. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: one of the saving graces of the modern fascist movement,

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Speaker 1: at least from the perspective of the rest of us

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Speaker 1: and were fascists, is that they kind of lack in

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Speaker 1: self control. Um, they're obsessed with violence and racism, and

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Speaker 1: they have trouble hiding it. Well, that doesn't stop them

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Speaker 1: from trying. Um, they have a focus on what they

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Speaker 1: call entryism, which is basically trying to find ways to

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Speaker 1: get normal right wingers on board with their extreme ideas.

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Speaker 1: So that yeah, red pilling is another term you'll here

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Speaker 1: used for it. Um. And there's the like, there's a

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Speaker 1: one of the discord channels leaked to unicorn Riot was

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Speaker 1: a hashtag belt tag Beltway Bigots, which is a chat

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Speaker 1: room for d C and Virginia based bigots. Uh. Here's

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Speaker 1: a quote from Unicorn Riots sort of summing up those conversations.

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Speaker 1: Local Charlottesville Unite the Right organizer Jaslyn Kesler Jason Kesler

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Speaker 1: repeatedly post and Beltway Bigots about his intention at various

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Speaker 1: events to try and provoke anti fascists into a violent

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Speaker 1: confrontation that could be spun as an attack against regular conservatives.

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Speaker 1: So that's their goal with these marches. Um, and here's

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Speaker 1: a direct quote from Kessler himself. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: triggering anti fat to protest and force the Alt Light's

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Speaker 1: hand just where your Maga hats and blend in his

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Speaker 1: proud boys. It'll be fun. So their stated goal is

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Speaker 1: to blend in as more moderate conservatives so that if

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Speaker 1: there are fights with anti Fat it looks to mainstream

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Speaker 1: conservatives like basically radical communists are ganging up on normal conservatives.

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Speaker 1: The dual purpose of putting the Alt Light in a

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Speaker 1: situation where they're suddenly in violence and then it creates

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Speaker 1: that US versus them exactly. M yeah. And it also

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Speaker 1: makes it easier for the fascists to go out and

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Speaker 1: march in public. Yeah yeah. Here's a quote from an

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Speaker 1: user in one of these channels who said, I love

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Speaker 1: LARPing as a normal Trump bro, not even kidding. It

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Speaker 1: allows me to feel kind of normal rather than a revolutionary.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I never deny being a white nationalist, which

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Speaker 1: again they'll admit white nationalism because they think they can

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Speaker 1: get away with that right now, which I guess maybe

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Speaker 1: they can. Uh. Here's another quote from Kessler in the planning.

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Speaker 1: Bring your Maga hats if you've got them. If Anti

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Speaker 1: fall Fox with us, it'll look like average Trump supporters

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Speaker 1: and Alt Light are under attack. Um So. On July eleven, seventeen,

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Speaker 1: Jason Kessler went to a Charlottesville town hall to talk

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Speaker 1: about Unite the Right and make it clear he was

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Speaker 1: not associated with the loyal white Knights of the ku

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Speaker 1: Klux Klan who just toasted a rally in Charlottesville. He said,

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Speaker 1: I didn't want them here. As a note, he's going

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Speaker 1: to be marching with the KKK today. Uh. He's clearly

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Speaker 1: no longer disavowing them. Um But on June, in a

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Speaker 1: private discord chat, eleven days after he disavowed the KKK,

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Speaker 1: Jason Kessler said this, the Confederate flag is the best

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Speaker 1: optics because it's beloved by legions of Southerners who are

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Speaker 1: on the doorsteps of becoming just like us. If we

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Speaker 1: can move them beyond heritage not hate. So again, like

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Speaker 1: the they know they can't. They know marching with swastika's

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Speaker 1: is a bad idea, but they figure if I march

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Speaker 1: with a Confederate flag, then I can get people who

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Speaker 1: maybe aren't full on Nazis, but who you know, are

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Speaker 1: proud of their Confederate heritage for some reason on board

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Speaker 1: with my Nazis. I think he's underestimating Southern manners. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean, Ah, the heritage and I hate people

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Speaker 1: don't like fighting. Well, I mean that's optimistic then I

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Speaker 1: hope so like not all of them, but definitely there's

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Speaker 1: a there's definitely a manners system in place that the

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Speaker 1: ugly fighting offense well, and that's they do. They do

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about how they should represent themselves and

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Speaker 1: how they should sort of present themselves to the public.

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Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of focus on not dressing like soldiers,

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Speaker 1: which they were early on, not wearing like military body

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Speaker 1: arm or not wearing camouflage. A lot of people focus

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Speaker 1: on like, we're white polo shirts dressed nicely because then

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Speaker 1: you will look like a nice, polite member of society.

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Speaker 1: And again it's all about in treatism. It's because after

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Speaker 1: after Charlottesville last year, I was campaigning with for Northam

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Speaker 1: in Roanoke, and I had a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: have been moderate Republicans were like, well, that was just

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Speaker 1: really ugly so we're going to vote Democrat for governor

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Speaker 1: this time around because we don't want this kind of

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Speaker 1: thing happening again. And it was the the optics of

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Speaker 1: provoking violence and bad manners, if you will, So that

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Speaker 1: was that was getting them to distance themselves from it.

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Speaker 1: Do you find that those glowing or not maybe not

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Speaker 1: glowing those sort of New York Times trend pieces about

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Speaker 1: you know, look at this nasty with this nicely tailored

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Speaker 1: suit and like this trendy haircut. Do those sort of

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Speaker 1: aid them in this, in this quest for better optics. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's very important to them. So there were there were

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Speaker 1: In addition to all these discord chats, there was a

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Speaker 1: Facebook chat, very long one that went over the course

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Speaker 1: of a couple of weeks that was also leaked by

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Speaker 1: Unicorn Riot and it it was the planning for this

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Speaker 1: rally they were going to in and it they talk

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Speaker 1: about their frustration with getting mainstream media outlets to talk

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Speaker 1: to them, like a lot of these guys, and none

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Speaker 1: of them mentioned having connections to Info Wars, but they're

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Speaker 1: clearly interested in getting respectable news outlets to cover their

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Speaker 1: beliefs um which I think it's like the NPR recently

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Speaker 1: interviewed Jason Kesler uh and essentially let him talk for

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Speaker 1: like three minutes about the stuff that he believes, which

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Speaker 1: is exactly what he wants, and what the New York

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Speaker 1: Times gave them was exactly what. Yeah, they want people

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Speaker 1: who uh, they want respectable coverage. They do want to

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Speaker 1: be a mainstream political party. Um. You'll hear regularly conversations

425
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: where they're basically saying, the police are not on our

426
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 1: side yet, Um, we have to be careful until we're

427
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 1: in control, you know. Like it's it's this understanding that

428
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: if they play nice enough long enough, they think they

429
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: can gain functional political power. Um. So yeah, well this

430
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,120
Speaker 1: has been the rights conservative rights strategy for the last

431
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: thirty years. I mean, if you look at the origins

432
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: of the Moral Majority and the Auburn Avenue theology, people,

433
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: you get when you have people who want to create

434
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: a theocracy out of America. They want to take on

435
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 1: mainstream UM avenues and like take it on step by

436
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: step and get themselves legitimized and accepted into those worlds.

437
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: And and honestly a lot of them are just straight

438
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 1: up stealing from and Tonio Graham. She's theories of like

439
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: seven spheres of cultural influence and like we have to

440
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: uh treated like trench warfare, and we're gonna we're gonna

441
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: take over this media. We're gonna take over this, We're

442
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: gonna go over the church. We're gonna take over this

443
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: and like slowly gain ground. And I think what these

444
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: guys are trying to do is essentially, because you're talking

445
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 1: more like the sort of Christian right, hard right conservatives,

446
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: I think these guys are trying to hijack that essentially,

447
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: yeah print yeah, um. And there's a big question within

448
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: these groups about how openly racist to be. That's like

449
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: a real subject of debate among racists is like how

450
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: clear can we make it that we're fascists? Um? Like

451
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 1: I found a brainstorming threat in the anti com channel

452
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: where they were trying to figure out like a logo

453
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: for their organization, and one of them suggested a design

454
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: that included little swastikas, and a person responded, people will

455
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: compare us to that then enormis know like Nazis. Other

456
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: users agree, One said, for sure, we ought to steer

457
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: away from anything that can be interpreted as Nazi symbolism

458
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: because that's going to be exactly what they are looking for.

459
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: Another person said, have to hide the power level. Uh,

460
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: you can't red pill normies by shoving in their face.

461
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: That's a really common phrase, hide the hide the power level.

462
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: What does that mean? It's a reference to dragon ball Z.

463
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: Because these guys are giant fucking nerds. I say, this

464
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: is a giant fucking nerd. But yeah, it's a reference

465
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: to dragon ball Z containing their hidden You know this

466
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: is not even my final form. Yeah right, And that's

467
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: and again this is this is taking a play out

468
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: of the Christian rights playbook that's been over the less

469
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: thirty years. Just like the cool youth pastor who walks

470
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: kids and yeah, like, hey, if you come to the

471
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: if you come to youth group, we're gonna watch movies

472
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: and play Halo. We're gonnam everybody, and then we're gonna

473
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: like it's turn up the heat and boil the frogs

474
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: in the water. And then before you know it, you're

475
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: protesting out that an abortionent clic or something insane like that. Well,

476
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,239
Speaker 1: and when we get on the subject of especially like

477
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: the nerdy language these guys use, that brings this to

478
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: another topic that's really intriusting to me, which is the

479
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 1: gamification of street violence and protest, which is really big

480
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: among the far right circle. So a lot of these people,

481
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: like I have some recorded chats that I found on

482
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: eight Chan from like is early like two or three

483
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: weeks after the election, where people were lamenting like the

484
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: end of the election, and like, well, I ever feel

485
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: as important as I felt when I was like making

486
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: these memes that were spreading and like felt like I

487
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: was taking part in this culture movement. Well yeah, but

488
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: that's that those those kids and that energy is exactly

489
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: what these movements are trying to co opt, and they've

490
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: done it in a variety of different ways. Um. The

491
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: Proud Boys are probably which is again that group found

492
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: about Gavin McGinnis had probably done the best job of this.

493
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: By the way, he got banned from Twitter. He sure

494
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: did get banned from Twitter to bay they're the Proud Boys.

495
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: Whole organizational structure UM is based in part around whether

496
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: or not you've been in a violent fight. Uh So

497
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: to get be a first degree Proud Boy or whatever,

498
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: you have to declare online via YouTube or something that

499
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: you're a proud boy and a Western chauvinist and you

500
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: believe in the super to see of Western culture, YadA, YadA, YadA.

501
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: Then you have to promise not to masturbate, which is key.

502
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: You don't want you to want to get rid of

503
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: your virile energy. Yes, you want to contain that can

504
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: have sex, Yes they can, and they can masturbate if

505
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: a woman is in the room who is consenting that

506
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: you specify that, But they cannot masturbate just for their

507
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: own pleasure. It is I can imagine your shitty ideology

508
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: having a masturbation class. It's the right wing circles of Christianity. Yeah,

509
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: not even kidding. And I was like, oh no, that

510
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: sounds that sounds pretty. And then after you've declared your

511
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: Western chauvinism and promise not to masturbate, basically the best

512
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: way to get i think fourth degree or whatever is

513
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: you have to either be arrested for the cause or

514
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: be involved in a serious fight. Uh. And they they

515
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: pretend that like that's not what they want, like that

516
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: this is a consolation for having been involved in something

517
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: so horrible. Uh. You Also, the only way to progress

518
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: in ranks is to be involved in street actions that

519
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: get violent, and so it's it is gamifying. It's like

520
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 1: giving you a little achievement it's like now you've been

521
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: in a street fight, you move up a level, you

522
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: get to yeah, giving you cookies for violence, yea and

523
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: their extremist groups. I should note have been using video

524
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: games and video game imagery for quite some time. There's

525
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: an isis made mod for Grand Theft Auto where you

526
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: like blow up American soldiers. During the start of the

527
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: Ukrainian Civil War, there was this famous propaganda video I

528
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: Russian Occupier that went viral and it was a mashup

529
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: of a pro Russian rant and recruiting video with graphics

530
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: that made it look like the opening to a Call

531
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: of Duty game. Um, so this is not this is

532
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: not like a new thing. And the like I said,

533
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: like the Lion of Europe video that the guy mentioned

534
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: is red pilling him had a shipload of video game

535
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: imagery in it because they are trying to make you

536
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: feel like the protagonist of one of these games. Well,

537
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: and one of the problems here too is um and

538
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: you see this with Muslim Radical Station um where YouTube

539
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: doesn't really have any locks in terms of content, and

540
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: so the suggested play next Auto feature will get people

541
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: down rabbit holes. Which is why, like, if you have

542
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: kids and you just let them sit on the iPad

543
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: and like watch YouTube videos. They'll eventually get into like

544
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: really sketchy territory because there will be like, um, like

545
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: parody videos made of common kids shows that will just

546
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: AutoPlay and it will eventually be like really graphic, horrific

547
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: sexual content and with like Telly Tubby's sucking each other

548
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: and like Pepper Pig getting yeah, and and and and

549
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 1: it's all because it's said on AutoPlay, and just like

550
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: the associative algorithm will just send you down a really

551
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: dark rabbit hole really fast. Hey, we're going to continue

552
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: our talk about Nazis and eventually actually go out and

553
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: yell at some of them and then tell you what

554
00:28:53,920 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: that was like. But first, here's some ads. Um Okay,

555
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: So we were talking about sort of like how silly

556
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the imagery around these these guys are.

557
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: Did you you'll see that picture of the green Keck

558
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: Warrior from the Portland protests. That was what I was

559
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: referring to. Yeah, third third rate in Ninja Turtle, Yeah,

560
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: third rate in Ninja Turtle. But this is part of

561
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: the reason that they dress like this is because they

562
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: think it's it's less threatening and it's less overtly like

563
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: violent than wearing again body armor that makes you look

564
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: like a militia man. He looks like your your local

565
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: LARPing suburban dad. Yeah, and he is. In fact, if

566
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: you look at his pants, I guarantee you he got

567
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: those from his LARPing days or whatever, like those are

568
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: those are fantasy LARPing pants that he got them run. Yeah,

569
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: guarantee you. I guarantee you. He has recently had a

570
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: conversation in which he explained just how many pounds of

571
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: pressure it takes to break a human neck. Oh yeah,

572
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: only ten, right, Yeah, it's like ten pounds. It's like,

573
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: that's not how it works then, So I don't want

574
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: to get too deep in the wood some weird internet culture,

575
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: but his you can see the words keck written on

576
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: his shield in a stylized form, which is obviously that

577
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: entered the Internet because it was how like gamers in

578
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: Korea would type out l O L and it sort

579
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: of became a part of Internet culture, and then four

580
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: Chan turned it into doing it from doing it to

581
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: the lolls to doing it for the kex or whatever,

582
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: and then this morphed into the idea of Kekistan, a

583
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: fake country that was mostly a joke, but also not quite. Uh, Kakistan,

584
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: You and not everybody who talks about Kakistan or whatever

585
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: is a far right nationalist. But Kakistan has a flag.

586
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: You will see these flags at protests regularly. Maybe not today,

587
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: but you saw it in Portland, you saw it in Berkeley. Uh.

588
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: And that flag looks like this, right, we'll have the

589
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: pictures up on our website behind the bastards dot com.

590
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: That is a green version of the Nazi naval flag.

591
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: So this is well known around the iconomists in the

592
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: center Keck. It's like it's like done to look like

593
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: a palindrome. Yeah, it's the The flag of Kakistan, so

594
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: to speak, is exactly the same with just the colors

595
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: inverted as the naval battle flag for the Third Reich. Um.

596
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: So this gets into what I was saying about how

597
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the outright fascist activists are frustrated with

598
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: some of the people on the alt right or the

599
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: alt light as they call them. Um. I found one

600
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: chat in a discord channel where someone said the Kakistan

601
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: meme has gotten too dumb to be useful. It doesn't

602
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: trigger anyone. Now you'd be surprised at how many people

603
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: flying the flags don't even know it's a variation on

604
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: the Kriegsmrine flag. And then there's a lot of debate

605
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: because some people will say, well, know, the fact that

606
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: like the that flag is out there is good and

607
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: like on the whole, I think that this this thing

608
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: is like positive optics for us. So they're they're very

609
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: much undecided about this. But it's interesting how I think

610
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: most of the people that you would see carrying that

611
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: flag would tell you they're not Nazis. I'm not a fascist,

612
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: but they are carrying a flag that's a rip off

613
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: of a Nazi flag. Understand that, I think a lot

614
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: of them do. I think some of them don't, because

615
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: it's gotten obscure enough and it's spread enough around the

616
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: internet that some people who would never consider themselves Nazis

617
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: still use that flag. But that is where it started.

618
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: I was curious, do you think that that's what they want?

619
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: They want this to become as a popular symbol where

620
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: mainstream not Nazis, you know, have like fly it without

621
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: really knowing what it means. So I think what they

622
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: want is it makes it easier for them to convert

623
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: these kids later if these people are already used to

624
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: being out in the street, they're already hanging out when

625
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: they're at protest around Nazis and they're flying this flag,

626
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: it's like you're one step closer. They want to normalize

627
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: it so that it can become a dog whistle when

628
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: they want to activate it. Yes, Kistan recruiting ground exactly,

629
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: and it's it's all about like they recognize and they

630
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: don't like how small they are. There's somewhere between two

631
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: and four hundred Nazi activists, maybe less than two hundred

632
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 1: expected today, but that's just because these people are out racists.

633
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: UM groups like the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer who

634
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: were again at the Portland and Berkeley protests, they are

635
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: better at hiding their fascism and better at hide their racism,

636
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 1: and I think as a result, they're a lot more

637
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: dangerous UM. But they're like the Quekistan stuff is part

638
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: of like it's it's a recruiting tool. And there are

639
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: a lot of conversations in the discord about like trying

640
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: to harden up these kids, trying to like give them

641
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: classes on how to deal with the police and train

642
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: them to fight. The Proud Boys initiation is you have

643
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: to get punched by a bunch of other proud boys

644
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: until you can name five breakfast cereals. And the stated

645
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: goal is too Yeah, it's really dumb. If you find

646
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: videos on it, it's the saddest thing in the world

647
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: because none of these kids, they don't they don't know

648
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: how to punch. Really, look it up if you want

649
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: to laugh. But their stated goal for it is they

650
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: want to train these kids how to focus while they're

651
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: stressed out and in pain. M Marine Corps three months.

652
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: I don't think getting punched in a circle name and

653
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: breakfast cereal will Actually I don't think so either. But

654
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: I also think that they're on the path to figuring

655
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: out how to get better at this. And they're not

656
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: just punching each other in a circle. They are showing

657
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: up to protest where these kids are getting into fights

658
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: and where they are game experience and functioning that way. Um. Now,

659
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: in terms of like actual talk about terrorism, um, it's

660
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: fairly mild on the discord channels. They know that there's

661
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: chances of being caught. But I have noticed that over

662
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: the last couple of months that they were talking in

663
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,479
Speaker 1: the time after Charlottesville, they got more open about talking

664
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: about things like explosives. So I found one conversation in

665
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: August two where some guy was talking about legal explosives

666
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: and people immediately shut it down and told him that

667
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: he was just like making them a magnet for the Feds.

668
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: But then a few weeks later, after Charlottesville, in the

669
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: same server, another user offered access to a library of

670
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty seven PDFs on how to manufacture

671
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: explosives and received no pushback. Uh. Now this did make

672
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: the news once the chats got leaked and it got

673
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: the anti com server taken down. Um, but it's interesting

674
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: to me that in the weeks and months after Charlottesville,

675
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: people got more and more comfortable among the fascist right

676
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: with talking about explosives and terrors. Are they do they

677
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: use the word terrorism? Do they? Are they weird that

678
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: that's what they're doing? I think so, because in December nineteen,

679
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: two seventeen, several members of the Traditional Workers Party Discord

680
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: got into a conversation about how they would have carried

681
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: out a Dylan Roof style mass shooting at a black

682
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: church without being caught. And yeah, I've got the whole

683
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: conversation here. One guy said, I would have parked a

684
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: mile away. Another guy said same, uh, and ride a

685
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: bike to the location. Another guy says, I would have

686
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: mapped out all the CCTV cameras first on a recon

687
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: op then planned parking Accordingly, another guy said that too.

688
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: I follow the same m O when I go to

689
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: a rally. The other guy said, me too. Man, So

690
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: they were basically talking about what they would have done

691
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 1: to have carried out that massacre and then gotten away

692
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: with it. We were talking about this last night. Do

693
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: you think that a lot of these people are former veterans?

694
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: Do you think they actually have any combat experience some

695
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: of them. I'm not completely sure whether there are a

696
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: significant number of veterans involved, and I'm sure there are some,

697
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: or if the people using a lot of this jargon

698
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: and stuff because they use a lot of of military

699
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: style tactics. They talk about X fill points or X filtration,

700
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: how to get out um, they talk about high value targets,

701
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: they refer to them as h vt s, And the

702
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: thing is that's very jargoning, and I'm not completely clear

703
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: if there's actually veteran in their writing their orders, because

704
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: it's not quite structured the right way. But it's also

705
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: the use of jargon that you find among people who

706
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: are like military adjacent and want to feel really tough,

707
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: like their dad was a marine or a cop or something,

708
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: and they're like they'll be talking about like h vt

709
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: s because it makes them feel like they're badass girling. Yeah,

710
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 1: I'm really not sure. It could be just a veteran,

711
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: but like a veteran who had a job like mine

712
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: where they worked a six to six death job and

713
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: want to feel like they were a badass, or they

714
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, they could just be one of these like

715
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: military fan fanboy knots. They're like larbers. They are Nazis,

716
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: but like they're LARPing military doing tactics and stuff. They

717
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: don't think they could actually hack it in the military,

718
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: but they want the all of the prestige and fund

719
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: or they think they can. They think they could hack

720
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: it in the military, or if they were in the

721
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: military and in a job like mind where they didn't

722
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: see action, they think they could hack it as a grunt,

723
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: but they've never they've never been tested. There are, however,

724
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: some of them who have been uh, some of them

725
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: who are combat veterans, although that's not the norm. Um

726
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: and In fact, it's more common around groups like the

727
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: oath keepers and the three percenters, those militias which they hate. Um.

728
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: But the idea is that only three percent of Americans

729
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 1: would be ready to like defend their country and defend

730
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: the constitution. And it's supposedly a group of veterans who

731
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: stand ready to defend free speech and whatnot. Though they

732
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: do have some of the same problems the Proud Boys

733
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: do of having people in their organization who are like,

734
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: I would have joined the military, but pt was hard. Yeah,

735
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: And they also get infiltrated by fascists and stuff. But

736
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: in general they're treated with contempt by the fascists because

737
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: they call them oath cuts um. Because they will do

738
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: stuff like stand around Anti five protests and try to

739
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: build a wall between them and the police, and they

740
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: probably masturbate it, so that that that means they're right

741
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: out in terms of protecting Western culture. How much like

742
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 1: messy kind of petty in fighting and drama is there

743
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: in this huge amount of a lot of patty high

744
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: schoolers in a lot of ways. And they one of

745
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: the things that is again makes them easier to fight

746
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: is that they have no sense of in group loyalty whatsoever.

747
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 1: When Unite the Right was a disaster and someone died

748
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of blood, they abandoned Jason

749
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: Kessler like that, like he has become very marginalized and

750
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: insulted and mocked. And the same thing happened with Matthew

751
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: Heinbach when he got arrested for beating up his father

752
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: in law after having an affair with his father in

753
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: law's wife. Uh, he was made fun of and mocked

754
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: and pretty much dropped by the community. Loyalty, no loyalty

755
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: for their heroes. And I should note that conversation we're

756
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: going through with these guys were talking about how to

757
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: carry out a Dylan Roof style shooting on a a

758
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,479
Speaker 1: black church. One of the two members in that goes

759
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: in discord by the name a Hopstorm foer Pepe Hopstorm

760
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: Fear was a Nazi like an S. S. Rank It

761
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: means essentially like Stormtroop leader Um Hopstrom fuer Peppe was

762
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: also the guy who started Anti com that group that

763
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: was supposedly nonpartisan and non political and contained people of

764
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: all political persuasions. He was the guy talking about how

765
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: to carry out and get away with an attack on

766
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: a black Church. Uh, and here's a picture of him.

767
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: He's a baby. He's a baby. Oh my god. We

768
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: will not be posting the picture of him because I

769
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: don't want to docks this guy because I'm not acent

770
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: share it's him. But there is a Trump stamp on

771
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: the side of his computer tower, and he looks like

772
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: the guy. These are these are the these are the

773
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 1: guys that you could really use just because their egos

774
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: are so fragile to be like, well, you could be

775
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: the great leader and then cause a lot of discord

776
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: and like keep things disorganized because they're all fighting each other. Yeah,

777
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: and also like it's hard to say, it's probably like

778
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: the conversation they're saying Karen talking about how they'd get

779
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 1: away with an attack. I'm going to guess this guy

780
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: is never going to do anything. But like, this kid

781
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: looks like he's maybe eighteen. He's got no hair on

782
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: his face, he looks like a little baby. He looks

783
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: like all the mass murders I've ever seen. That's what's scary,

784
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: because there is this guy does look like exactly the

785
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: kind of person in age group, and there's nothing stopping

786
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,479
Speaker 1: him from getting an a R fifteen like the what's

787
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: the ven diagram overlap with in cells and these guys

788
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: they do not Like none of these guys identify as

789
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: in cells that I have found, um, And there's not

790
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about them here because the in

791
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: cells are for one thing. Um, A lot of in

792
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: cells are not white. They are like like Elliott Roger

793
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: wasn't a white kid. Um. He was obsessed with wanting

794
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: to be and look white because he thought that those

795
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: were the guys who get all the girls. And you'll

796
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: run into that along the in cell community. But I

797
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: think these guys would generally view those people as degenerates. Um,

798
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: although they do share some of the same goals. I

799
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: think in sales also masturbate a lot, so they couldn't

800
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: be proud boys. Yeah. So anti com the leader of

801
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 1: this baby faced Nazis was a member of that claimed

802
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: not to be a political group that included yet he

803
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 1: looks like a half baked puppy. These guys got kicked

804
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: off of Discord after Charlottesville in September in part because

805
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 1: of like the bomb stuff that was being shared on

806
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: their discord chat um. But from February to September seventeen,

807
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: their members posted more than nine messages, and they were

808
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,479
Speaker 1: a prominent part of the first Unite the Right rally.

809
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: Their Twitter account is still active. They don't seem to

810
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: be doing a lot right now. Um, but I do

811
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: think the basic ideas behind this group have sort of

812
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: been funneled into the activism of the Proud Boys and

813
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: groups like Patriot Prayer. Um, they've just done a better

814
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: job of hiding the racism. But it's important to know that, Like,

815
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of movement between all these groups. So

816
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: when Anti Com got shut down, all of the Anti

817
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: com guys started talking in the traditional Workers Party discord.

818
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 1: And you know, while Patriot Prayer and like Gavin McInnis

819
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: of the Boys said don't attend the first Unite the

820
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: Right rally, ordered is people not to posted a big

821
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: article saying we're not part of the alt right, we

822
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 1: don't associate with the alt right. A ton of Proud

823
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: Boys showed up at Charlotteessville the last time. They might

824
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: be there this time. The guy who's the leader of

825
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: their quote Militant Order and the Proud Boys the Fraternal

826
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: Order of All Knights, which Kevin McInnis says has nothing

827
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: to do with the alt right. A lot of them

828
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: were there at Charlottesville. So it's again they say, we

829
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: have no affiliation with these groups, and the leaders will

830
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: disavow them, but you look at what their people do,

831
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: and the bad guys just not be the lamest version

832
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: of themselves for twenty seconds, like we were in the

833
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: dumbest timeline. We're in the dumbest timeline. And what sucks

834
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: is that like being the lamest version of the bad

835
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: guys might work. Yeah, that's that's why this is the

836
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: dumbest time. The third would never have these guys because

837
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: they have no dignity. And then that and the fact

838
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: that that makes them more dangerous is really stupid. Yeah,

839
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: but because it makes the police are more likely to

840
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: be sympathetic with them, um, and because moderates are more

841
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: likely to be sympathetic with them because they look yeah, yeah,

842
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: they look like kicked little puppies rather than like fucking

843
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: ryanhard Hydrick marching down the street or whatever. And it's

844
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: I think that you could make a I mean it

845
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: would probably a whole other, big pile of research and

846
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: a whole up or maybe even like a whole other podcast,

847
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: but you could talk about how you said a lot

848
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: of these guys identified as former Democrats who voted whoever

849
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,959
Speaker 1: and then and they were a lot of these guys

850
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: were probably pretty centrist as it were, like because they

851
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: just they were centrist and they hated like a lot

852
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: of them will talk about how they didn't like banks

853
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: and they didn't like uh, capitalism or whatever. But it's

854
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: because they think the Jews are behind it. And so

855
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: they started out being more moderate and then they realized

856
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: that there was this whole ideology Taylor built to people

857
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: who were paranoid about all that ship. Um, So they

858
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: just found their people. Basically, they found their people. It

859
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: took them a little while, um, but the election really

860
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: gave them an opportunity to get out in public with

861
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: this ship. The first Unite the Right rally, as they said,

862
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: was meant to be like a political coming out party

863
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: for the fascist right. Uh. It seems to have been

864
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: their high water marks so far. But there's disturbing trends

865
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: that they're winning, both in terms of like the further

866
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: right tilt that you've seen among a lot of conservative

867
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: commentators and stuff like the MPR talking to Jason Kessler

868
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: because they let him talk about his theories on like

869
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, the data says this about these are all

870
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: the most intelligent races. And one of the things Kessler

871
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: did that they'll usually do. They'll never say white people

872
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: are the most intelligent race, because they say they're not

873
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: white supremacist. Let's say Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest, and

874
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: then it's Asians, and then it's white people and then

875
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: everybody else comes on. But that that gives them again

876
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: they can couch it in science. They can say I'm

877
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: not a white supremacist. I'm yeah, well, well it's never

878
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: any good science. It's like phrenology. But like they'll be like,

879
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: facts don't have feelings. Well they're not acts. But because

880
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: you said the phrase facts and not feelings, now we're

881
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: debating on your terms. Yeah, And they'll talk about like

882
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: i Q tests and stuff and ignore the fact that like, well, no, actually,

883
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: you can give someone a twenty minute coaching session that

884
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: raises their i Q score by twenty points, which proves

885
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: that the i Q is not a measure of intelligence,

886
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: but as a measure of your ability to Yeah, that's

887
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: been like debunked, like twenty years ago, constantly debunked. It's

888
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: like it's like it's one of intelligence. Yeah, the past.

889
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: It was like how polygraph is still used in stuff,

890
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: but like our average person is like, oh, yeah, the

891
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: polygraphs are not that accurate. The government still polygraphs people.

892
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: You can. Yeah, it's frustrating, bad science, but it gives

893
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: them camouflage. And it's all about camouflage. And that's part

894
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: of why the Nazis were going to be seeing today.

895
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: I don't think are the most dangerous ones because they're

896
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: just not disciplined enough to camouflage. Well, Gavin McGinnis has

897
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: done a better job of camouflaging, although he still got

898
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: banned from Twitter. The Patriot prayer guy is Joey Gibson

899
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: or better do it is? It's I mean, it's really

900
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: hard and for a white guy. Ye. Speaking of Bason

901
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: Kessler and speaking of Twitter, here's what he said less

902
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: than a week after the first Unite the Right rally

903
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: on Twitter. He essentially said that Heather Hayer was a horrible,

904
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: disgusting communist quote communists if killed ninety four million, looks

905
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: like it was payback time now. His tweet ignited a

906
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: firestorm of condemnation. And this is the ship that I

907
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: think NPR should have brought up. They shouldn't have said.

908
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 1: What do you believe they should have said? After Charlottesville?

909
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 1: You said this, what is your plan for the current rally?

910
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: I'm frustrated at the bad journalism of just letting this

911
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: guy talk about his ship, because this is not the

912
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Even other fascists weren't willing to stand

913
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: up for him. Richard Spencer, after this tweet, came out

914
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: disavowed him and said I will no longer associate with

915
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: Jason Kessler, and no one should. Hayer's death was deeply saddening.

916
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: Payback is a morally reprehensible idea because she was a

917
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: white woman, but also because these guys are scared. They

918
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: don't want to be seen as culpable to a death.

919
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: Because Spencer's part of the lawsuit against the organizers of

920
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 1: Unite the Right, so he's scared too. Yeah. Um, they're

921
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: all scared. Take much more bad press after getting punched

922
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: in the face on television, Yes, and we will be.

923
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 1: We'll get into the Nazi punching debate, and a little

924
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: bit here I want to read a quote from Matt

925
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: Novak of Gismoto, who discuss described sort of the general

926
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: fallout from Jason Kessler tweeting the Heather Higher deserve to

927
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: die because communism quote. Some so called alright activists said

928
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: that Kesler is a secret Barack Obama supporter and even

929
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: wanted Hillary Clinton to win. Basically the worst things you

930
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: can say in the white supper Mrs community about other

931
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: neo Nazis. Others said that Heather Hair herself was some

932
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: kind of government agent. Um, so that's again like these

933
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: it's this is one of the saving graces that we

934
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: have is that these guys have not gotten good at

935
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: keeping one unified line, which the original Nazis were fucking

936
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: great at. Everybody stuck to Hitler, and everybody stuck to

937
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: the same story. For his part, Kessler posted a tweet

938
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: the next day saying I was hacked last night. I

939
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 1: apologized for the tweets sent out from my account last night. Um, yeah,

940
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: at least I didn't blame Ambion. Well he did, so

941
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: he makes everyone racist. It's a little He deleted that

942
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: tweet very shortly after, and then put up another one

943
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: saying at two part tweet saying I repudiate the heinous

944
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: tweet that was sent from my account last night. I've

945
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: been under a crushing amount of stress and death threats.

946
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm taking Ambien zan X and I had been drinking

947
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: last night. Sometimes I wake up having done strange things

948
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: I don't remember. So you called it to him? No, no,

949
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: not just Roseanne, but there were there were even jokes

950
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: among the Nazis about his comment in Roseanne's comment and

951
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: about like maybe we should all just say we're on ambient.

952
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 1: Ha wow, pre advertising for Ambien though, yeah, Ambien donal

953
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: in turns racism cover. I guess whatever the competitor of

954
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: Ambient is should really at least our drug doesn't make

955
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: you a Nazi. Whiskey helps you sleep and doesn't make

956
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 1: you a Nazi having trouble sleeping. Try Alcoholism doesn't leave

957
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: to Nazism. They are sometimes correlated. The Nazism came first,

958
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: so again after Unite the Right one point oh, a

959
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: lot of the groups that were involved in planning and collapsed.

960
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: The Traditional Workers Party fell apart back in March when

961
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: Heimbach was arrested for assaulted David Parrott, the husband of

962
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: his mistress and spokesperson for the TPP and also his

963
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: father in law. This is yeah, this is his stepmom

964
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: messy ship Like this is like Shakespeare level of yeah,

965
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: and just like, come on, guys, don't plan to your

966
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: own stereotypes of being like incestuous and weird. And they

967
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: this was that doesn't lead to weird ship at all,

968
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: doesn't Yeah, And there was a lot of the Nazis

969
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: sort of recognized this at the time. I found one

970
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: user who summed up a lot of people's opinions when

971
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: he said, seems like if we had higher standards, the

972
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 1: whole ship show with Heinbach wouldn't have happened. What did

973
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: I say earlier about dignity, Maybe if you hadn't been Nazis,

974
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: that would have been part of it. Um. So, yeah,

975
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 1: a lot of these groups have fallen apart. Vanguard America

976
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: went to the ground and split up into new groups

977
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: and including Patriot Front, the t WB collapse, Anti com collapse,

978
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 1: But all of the people are still there. It's not

979
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: worthwhile to focus too much on the names of most

980
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: of these groups. Like right now, Patriot Prayer and the

981
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: Proud Boys are kind of the most ascendant in like

982
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: the far right, the fascist right, street violence groups, but

983
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: I'm sure they will collapse, but the people will still

984
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: be there. And one yeah, yeah, they move very freely

985
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 1: within these groups. It's frustrating um, which gets me into

986
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: the matter of how their tactics have evolved, because this

987
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: is what does concern me, because as ridiculous as these

988
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: people are, they have hit upon some good tactics for

989
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 1: getting away with the ship that they do. UM. At

990
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: that Portland protest, I want to read you a quote

991
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: from a Frontline PBS correspondent who described Patriot Front and

992
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: how they presented themselves at Portland. I would say that

993
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: it was perhaps a fascist rally in Portland, but not

994
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: a white supremacist rally, and that's sort of a new

995
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 1: wrinkle in the fire right movement. So the groups that

996
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: were in Portland, they wanted you to know, hey, look,

997
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 1: we're not racist, and many of them have had leaders

998
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 1: who were people of color. But they also said, hey,

999
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 1: we're really into fascist characters like Pinochet. The first guy

1000
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: I met had a huge shirt on that said Pinochet

1001
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: did nothing wrong, and other people had shirts on that

1002
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: would say things like right wing death squad. And so

1003
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: these people are what it would call multicultural, multi ethnic

1004
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: fascist groups that laud characters like Pinochet, and that just

1005
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: happened to be like nineties seven point eight percent white. Yeah, Yeah,

1006
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: it just happened to be the vast majority of white

1007
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: and they happened to have been caught online send which

1008
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: a racist ship. Yeah, almost all dudes. I have a

1009
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 1: question about one of these gripts is prayer in their name? Yeah?

1010
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: They do. They purport to be Christians, Yes, and they

1011
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: were saying that they were praying like they were having

1012
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: a prayer rally in Portland. So do they're have their

1013
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: churches like just barred them, given like withdrawn their membership,

1014
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 1: or given them any kind of church discipline. They're not evangelical,

1015
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: come out and just about Trump during all his mania. Yeah,

1016
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: I haven't heard of it. I wouldn't expect it. I'm

1017
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: just curious that there's been any any internal rejection of

1018
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: them from Christian community. I am sure there have been

1019
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: churches that have rejected them, particularly in Portland, but these

1020
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: guys are not affiliated with a particular church. They just

1021
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: claimed to be a group of patriotic anti communist activists.

1022
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: So that's again, that's the new camouflage the far right

1023
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: has and the people were going to be seeing today

1024
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: are people who will say they're white nationalists. Most of

1025
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: the movement has moved away from that and say white

1026
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: nationalism isn't a selling point, let's call ourselves anti communists.

1027
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 1: Well that yeah, So we're going to get more into

1028
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: the strategies with police that these people have evolved, and

1029
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: the wisdom of whether or not it's a good idea

1030
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:58,399
Speaker 1: to punch and nazi. But first, ads, so, I want

1031
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit more about again how connected

1032
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: these groups are, because one of the things that they

1033
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: are doing to try and protect themselves and save their

1034
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 1: movement is to claim, like Patriot prayerbal claim, we have

1035
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: nothing to do with Jason Kessler, we have nothing to

1036
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: do with the Traditional Workers Party, we have nothing to

1037
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 1: do with Charlottesville or any of those people, even though

1038
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: Joey Gibson, the founder of Patriot Prayer, has been photographed

1039
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: and found talking with a shipload of people who were

1040
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,919
Speaker 1: at the first Unite the Right rally. UM. It's also

1041
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: worth noting that like Pinochet was the dictator of Chile

1042
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: and one of the things he did he had a

1043
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: lot of communists and quote unquote communists executed and including

1044
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people thrown from helicopters. UM. Now, among

1045
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 1: the Patriot Prayer people, you saw a number of shirts

1046
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: with like flaming people from helicopters on them and with

1047
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,879
Speaker 1: like pinocheted nothing wrong on them and right wing death

1048
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: squads and stuff. Because Pinochet had right wing death squads

1049
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: to kill communists, so they are willing to hearken back

1050
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,919
Speaker 1: to that. And even a year or so before these

1051
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: guys were very active, the Pinochet of session was obvious

1052
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: on the far right, like in the In the chats

1053
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,439
Speaker 1: from these various groups, I found more than a dozen

1054
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: references to throw in communists out of helicopters, mostly on

1055
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: anti comm which I think is kind of an intellectual

1056
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 1: precursor in a lot of ways to how Patriot Prayer

1057
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 1: is marketing themselves right now. Um. And there were also

1058
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 1: numerous references to right wing death squads uh and to Pinochet.

1059
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: So again, these groups will all try to say we're

1060
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: different from the fascists who marched in Charlottesville. We're different,

1061
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: but they're not different. They talk about the same things.

1062
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: They have a lot of the same members in common. Well,

1063
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: this is this is like the conservative Christian thing because

1064
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 1: they're all decentralized and they have so many splinter groups,

1065
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: but they all believe the same stuff that they're able

1066
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 1: to disavow each other and still promote the same ideas. Yes,

1067
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: and they are again. One of the things that's really

1068
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 1: frustrating is that a lot of the journalists covering these

1069
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 1: people do not do their due diligence. So they'll talk

1070
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,919
Speaker 1: to Gavin Mechanics about the Proud Boys and he will say,

1071
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: you know, we're not a violent group. We don't start fights,

1072
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: but we will finish them. The violence you see in

1073
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: the media is us defending ourselves from lunatics who want

1074
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: us dead for no discernible reason. But if you actually

1075
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: do a little bit of digging, you can find other

1076
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: quotes from Gavin again Us, including this one from a

1077
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 1: right wing Canadian website called The Rebel quote. We're the

1078
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: only ones fighting these guys, and it's fun when they

1079
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: go low, go lower, Mason back, throw bricks at their heads.

1080
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: Let's destroy them. We've been doing it for a while now,

1081
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: and I gotta say it's really invigorating. Well, my question

1082
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: is what role do you think the media should be playing, Like, like,

1083
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: how can you report on these people correctly? I I mean, okay,

1084
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: so there's no way to say this without sounding like

1085
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 1: a little bit narcissistic, but I Like, what I am

1086
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: trying to do in my reporting on them is I'm

1087
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: i am not trying to report on their beliefs. I'm

1088
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: not trying to read out quotes about here's what they

1089
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: believe about the world. I'm gonna read you like a

1090
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: page of statistics about what they think about i q

1091
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: s and races, because that would bring the debate to

1092
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: their terms. Yes, what is important to talk about is

1093
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: what these people believe, what they say, and what they

1094
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: do in the streets, because you can't just ignore them

1095
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 1: because they are out there. They all marching and they

1096
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: are hurting people. If you're going to cover them, you

1097
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: have to do your legwork. You can't just say, Gavin mcginnison,

1098
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 1: the Proud Boys deny any involvement with a violent group

1099
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:13,959
Speaker 1: and say that they're not you know, they're a multi

1100
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: racial group or whatnot. You have to look at the

1101
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: quotes from these guys where they say incredibly racist shit. Uh,

1102
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 1: Like there's a you can even find it on their website.

1103
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 1: So in that article Gavin wrote called we are not

1104
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: all Right, he had a quote where he said there

1105
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: are no racial requirements to be in the Proud Boys.

1106
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: There are no special rules for black proud boys. But

1107
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 1: then he said this overrides anything previously published about black

1108
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: proud boys, which means that at some point he had

1109
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 1: special rules if you were going to be black and

1110
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: a proud boy. It takes very cursory research to find

1111
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: out all of the back chatter sort of and all

1112
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: of the times where these guys contradict each other and

1113
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: where they are clearly racist. But you have to do

1114
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 1: that research otherwise you're just letting them present themselves. So

1115
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 1: you have to zoom out a little bit further than

1116
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: you would do for a specific event based reporting and

1117
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: look at the like the context of the entire worldview

1118
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: and the conversation that's come beforehand. And you need to

1119
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: pay journalists more so that they have time to do

1120
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: that research. Yes, you need a journalist who will go

1121
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: at them kind of in the style referred to as

1122
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: kind of like bulldogging, like, um, just keep hitting them

1123
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: with things like on this day, on at this time,

1124
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: on this website, you said this, what do you have

1125
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: to say for yourself? And then like as they're trying

1126
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: to spin it away when they try to pivot, go

1127
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: for another one. Well, on this day, on this session,

1128
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: like have your ammunition high school debate side have have

1129
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: the receipts, make them answer you. Well, it is basic

1130
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: debate tactics. If you make them answer you, they're losing. Yeah, exactly,

1131
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: Like That's that's what you have to do. You don't

1132
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: come to them and say, well, like NPR did, tell

1133
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: me what you believe, you come and say you tweeted

1134
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: this about Heather Hair. Are you still saying it was

1135
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: ambient like you said? Because again, we have thousands of

1136
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: things that Jason Kessler posted in these quotes, including an

1137
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: enormous amount of really racist ship, which I'm not going

1138
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: to read out here, but just type in racial layers

1139
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: into the search database that unicorn Right has provided for

1140
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: these guys quotes, and you will find them talking about

1141
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: racist ship. It is not hard. It's very easy to

1142
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: as in specific racist. You type in any slur, you'll

1143
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: find a bunch of conversations um or you just type

1144
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,479
Speaker 1: in his name he was mad dimension on the form.

1145
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: So if you type that into the search thing that

1146
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: unicorn right provides, you can find everything he said, and

1147
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: you can find plenty of evidence that Jason Kessler is

1148
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: as racist as someone helped me with a with a

1149
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: the day is long. Oh there we go. Okay, okay,

1150
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: we we are in the South. So as NBR done

1151
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: a counter counterbalancing interview too. If they gave him three

1152
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: minutes a fare time, did they give someone else three

1153
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: minutes a fair time? That should have that No, but

1154
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: they did during the same day kind of equate Black

1155
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: Lives Matter as like the opposite of these guys in

1156
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: a way that basically implied that the Black Lives Matter

1157
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: is as extreme as these guys and just being like, hey,

1158
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: we'd like to stop being shot. That'd be fantastic. Yeah, No,

1159
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter is nowhere near as radical as Malcolm

1160
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: X's followers or anything. They're very very well. Even Malcolm

1161
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: X wasn't that radical, Like it shouldn't be radical to

1162
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: just say we don't want to be shot anymore. It's

1163
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: not that complicated, but it is. So there's a lot

1164
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: of false equivocation happening. And that's exactly the point of

1165
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: a group like anti comm and I what I think

1166
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: is their mental descendants Patriot Prayer, because their goal their

1167
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: and their goal is to say Anti fall is not

1168
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: an organization. There's no national Antifa. There are different cities

1169
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,439
Speaker 1: and whatnot. But everyone should be anti fascist. It's not

1170
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: like and if you I started interviewing anti fascist activists before,

1171
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: like right before the election and a little bit after,

1172
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,479
Speaker 1: and this was back before anti fall was a word

1173
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: most people knew. And there were a few dozen of

1174
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: these people really who were active around the world outside

1175
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: of a place like the UK where it was common,

1176
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 1: it was not. It's it's not an organization that exists

1177
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: to further in ideology. It is grassroots organizations that have

1178
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 1: started because there's Nazis marching, and what the Nazis are

1179
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: trying to do is say no, no, no, no no.

1180
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: These people are communist activists and so we're not fascist

1181
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: activists were anti communists. They're essentially trying to turn around.

1182
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,439
Speaker 1: They're trying to make themselves look reactionary against a group

1183
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a coherent ideology. And is it self reactionary, yes,

1184
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: And they're doing that in order to gain the sympathy

1185
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: of the police and moderate conservatives um, because that is

1186
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: what worked in Germany in the nineteen thirties. That's why

1187
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: Hitler came to power in large degree, because the German

1188
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 1: Centrists and German conservatives and we go over this on

1189
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: our episode about the non Nazi bastards behind Hitler. So

1190
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: I won't labor the point too long, but I will

1191
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: say everybody should read True Believer because it gets into

1192
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: all of this and it's a real short book and

1193
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: the death of democracy. Um, but these guys. One of

1194
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: the points that these guys are not ignorant about the

1195
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: history of the Nazi Party. They have also done their

1196
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: reading on how Hitler rose to power, and they know

1197
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: what works. They have the pook, they have the playbook,

1198
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: and it's worked once before. So I think actually at

1199
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 1: this point, I do want to kind of go around

1200
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: the table and get sort of your expectations of everybody

1201
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,919
Speaker 1: for how this protest is going to go today, because

1202
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: probably in about an hour or so from now, will

1203
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: be face to face with the members of the fascist

1204
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: parties in the United States who are willing to call

1205
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: themselves white nationalists or fascists. So what do you expect,

1206
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: And let's start with Nick. I expect that they want

1207
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: us to start ship. I expect that they will be

1208
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,919
Speaker 1: as inflammatory as possible. They're gonna say things, They're gonna

1209
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: try to like make eye contact, They're gonna try to

1210
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: like draw us in. I will be interested to see

1211
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 1: what they chant because, like one of the things that

1212
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: made the march in Charlotte's feel so startling to people

1213
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: with some of the like legitimately scary things they were chanting.

1214
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: Like just hearing the audio of those people chanting like

1215
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 1: blood and soiled blood and so like that scared people. Yeah. Like,

1216
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: and I mean that one sounds lamer so, but like

1217
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: I think that they're going to try to do stuff

1218
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 1: like that. Second one, like the Jews will not replace

1219
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: or whatever. They're gonna try to be like as specifically

1220
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: insulting as possible to try to get someone to snap.

1221
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: And you when we lad a phone conversation prior to

1222
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: coming out here, you talked to me about something that

1223
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: those chances made you remember from your time in the

1224
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: Marine Corps, right, they So I will refer to the

1225
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: to the boot camp process in the Marine Corps brainwashing,

1226
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: which not everybody likes because it's an ugly word, but

1227
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: it is what it is. It's real, it's exactly, it

1228
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: is exactly what it is in the Marine Corps. What

1229
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: one of the things that's intended in boot camp is

1230
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: just basically what they want is the military has no

1231
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: use for just a regular human personality with all of

1232
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: its chaos and disorder. So what they do is they

1233
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: strip out your personality through a lot of psychological crap,

1234
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: and then they build a new personality that values order

1235
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: and authoritarianism, and then your old personality, depending on how

1236
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: strong you your personality was to begin with, it grows back. Um,

1237
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: some people it doesn't grow back. And those are the

1238
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: guys that like have a high end tight for the

1239
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: next forty years and like treat their kids like their

1240
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: kids are at boot camp and you know, like I

1241
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: had a gun any like that way, there was like

1242
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: a a platoon like a dinner or something, and his

1243
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: kids were standing at attention by the wall like that

1244
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: kind of creepy ship. Those guys, their personality never grew back.

1245
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 1: The rest of us, our personalities grew back, and after

1246
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: a few years the brainwashing starts to wear off, but

1247
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: you still have the basic frame of a very orderly,

1248
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: authoritarian marine. Um, if you put a bunch of veterans

1249
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 1: in the room and give them basic constructions on how

1250
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: to do a task none of them have ever done before,

1251
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 1: you will find a lot of times they still complete

1252
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: the task faster and more efficiently than a group of

1253
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 1: civilians who have gone through it once before and so

1254
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: connect to the chance the chanting um. One of the

1255
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: ways that you get people to sync up together is

1256
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: if you can make them say the same thing at

1257
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: the same time over and over again. It makes people

1258
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: feel like a group. We are heard creatures. If you

1259
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: make us all chant one to three four, I Love

1260
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps over and over again, you begin to

1261
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: believe the things you're saying and be feel like a

1262
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: big piece of biological evidence for that. With like parasynthetic responses.

1263
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 1: In terms of meditating with a group and chanting together,

1264
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 1: your body does get into the same kind of rhythm

1265
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 1: and breathing pattern. It's call and response and um. The

1266
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 1: chanting blood and soil, Blood and soil isn't really that

1267
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: different from you know, going on a run and then

1268
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: the person calling Cadence sings something that everyone knows how

1269
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 1: to respond, and they all respond and it makes you

1270
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: I mean, people make fun of calling Cadence and stuff

1271
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 1: in the Marine Corps, but there's no doubt that it

1272
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: makes you feel like part of the team, and it's

1273
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: a part of you see it in the military, you

1274
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: see it in pep rallies in school where everybody's chanting

1275
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 1: there whatever their team slogans are, and it works, It

1276
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: really works. It's a psychological tool. So they will probably

1277
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: try to do things like that, and one of the

1278
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: ways to defeat that is either to make it hard

1279
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: for them to focus, and frankly, white people aren't great

1280
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: at rhythm, so another thing to do is to chant

1281
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: over them and chant things that do the opposite what

1282
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: they're trying to do, scare them. Like a chance that

1283
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: I would like to hear out there. I don't know

1284
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: if anybody could get it going with a chance I

1285
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: would like to hear out there is we are many,

1286
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 1: they are a few, because one of the things they're

1287
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: very afraid of is that being outnumbered and having a

1288
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: thousand black people being like, there's a lot more of

1289
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 1: us in there our view here, we'll break that feeling

1290
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 1: of like well, a lot of the old the old

1291
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: resistance chants from like the sixties have that kind of

1292
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: mindset like that we will overcome song like that. That's

1293
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: the same kind of you know, because we both come

1294
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: from that like church conservative background, singing together in church,

1295
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 1: exact same thing. I don't know, you want to talk

1296
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 1: about your expectations for today. I'm not really sure what

1297
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: to expect. It depends on the numbers. But I do

1298
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: agree with Nick here that they really want to be

1299
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: seen as the victims, and so they will try to

1300
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: provoke things that will make it look like they're the

1301
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 1: victim and sent um. It's just schoolyard bullying tactics. That's

1302
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 1: kind of what I'm anticipating, and the point is to

1303
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: not let them get a rise out of us. I'm

1304
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: not expecting that much. Like I think it's going to

1305
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 1: be a hundred of the guys the first wave fashion. Yeah,

1306
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,959
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be like very sunburned white

1307
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 1: people who like don't look scary at all. Like, I

1308
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: don't think it's going to be as intimidating. Is maybe

1309
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 1: they are hoping to because they're not open carrying this time, correct? Yeah?

1310
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: I think Yeah. I think a city like DC, it's

1311
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: a very black city. It's a city where you know,

1312
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 1: you don't fuck the people from d C. I think

1313
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: that all of the nonsense that you see in other places, Um,

1314
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: I don't think any of that ship is going to

1315
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: fly here. Yeah. I was really happy to hear it

1316
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: was going to be in DC because d C is

1317
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: used to protests and mass movements, and the police here

1318
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 1: are equipped to de escalate things definitely. Like during Occupy

1319
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I want to occupy New York

1320
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 1: are a couple you know out on the West coast.

1321
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,959
Speaker 1: DC was by far the most well managed in terms

1322
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: of police interactions. Because this is DC. There's a protest

1323
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: of some kind every weekend. The police. You know, I'm

1324
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: the big champion of the police, but the police when

1325
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: it comes to you know, big rallies and stuff, like,

1326
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 1: they know what they're doing. And so I think that

1327
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: if it was any other city, I would be worried.

1328
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: I will be concerned. I will be maybe even scared.

1329
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 1: I just think in d C, like this is my home.

1330
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 1: Like I just know that we we don't put up

1331
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:30,959
Speaker 1: with that ship. And I would, you know, I would.

1332
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: I would love to see some of these guys like

1333
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 1: on the Metro with your average DC Metro ridership. I

1334
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: thought that was really cute that they wanted their own

1335
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: private metro cars and they thought that that that that

1336
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:43,480
Speaker 1: would fly here. Yeah. I don't know what, you know

1337
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 1: what it was unions? Yeah, no, yeah, the the union,

1338
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 1: the Metro Union was like, hell no, let's go back

1339
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 1: a little and explain that, because there was rumors about

1340
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: a week or so ago. I think that the DC

1341
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: Metro would essentially be giving three train cars to the

1342
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 1: to the protesters, to clansmen essentially and and Nazi activists

1343
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 1: to sort of privately take them in and out of

1344
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 1: where they were going to march. And then the the

1345
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 1: Metro Union was like, we will go on strike the

1346
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: whole weekend, which like, they never go on straight. They'll

1347
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 1: put up with anything. So if that's their limit, pretty good.

1348
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: And again, the first target of the Nazis in Germany

1349
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: was the trade unions, the first target before the Jews,

1350
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 1: before anybody. Uh yeah, so wait, what are you expecting.

1351
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: I'm expecting about a hundred and fifty to two hundred

1352
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: Nazis and activists and uh my worst case scenario expectation

1353
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 1: is that the police will be jumpy, which again I

1354
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 1: agree with Bridget that's not as likely in d C

1355
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,600
Speaker 1: as it was in Portland. The worst case scenarios, you know,

1356
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: the police start firing tear gas and rubber bullets into

1357
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 1: the crowd. Um, I expect if there's violence it will

1358
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: either be so I've read all the planning chats for

1359
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: these guys, and Kessler like one of the things he

1360
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 1: says over and over and is that if this gets violent,

1361
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 1: we're done as a movement. So Jason Kessler does not

1362
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: want today to be violent, but other members of his

1363
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: group talked regularly about hoping to get in fights with

1364
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: anti flaw and hoping they have an excuse to be

1365
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 1: violent at this rally. They want to get there. They

1366
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 1: move up a degree. Although these guys aren't Proud Boys,

1367
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: although some of them might be, but they they're not.

1368
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: The Proud Boys are not openly allowed to attend this

1369
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 1: event um, but they still put a lot of cash

1370
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 1: a and being involved in fights. Um. So if there's violence,

1371
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 1: it's possible it'll start with the anti fascist activists just

1372
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 1: getting too hot under the collar. There's also a bunch

1373
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 1: of wild cards among these guys, um. Which does bring

1374
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:40,360
Speaker 1: me to someone I want to bring up in terms

1375
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: of what scares me potentially about this rally. Does anybody

1376
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: know about Vassilios Pistoles. He is a guy who showed

1377
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 1: up to unite the right one and I think he

1378
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 1: marched with the traditional workers party that don't off the

1379
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: top of my head. But he was a member of

1380
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 1: a group called adam Waffen, which is the German word

1381
01:09:57,080 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: for atomic weapons. And adam Waffen is a fairly small group,

1382
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 1: but one of the more they like. There's multiple murders

1383
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 1: associated with Adam. Often they've killed a number of people

1384
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 1: and attempted, yeah in the US and attempted to carry

1385
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 1: out terrorist attacks. Uh. Now, Vassilos Pistoles was one of

1386
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 1: the most violent people at the first Unite the Right rally.

1387
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: There's at least three videos of him very clearly committing

1388
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 1: assault um like beating people with sticks. I think one

1389
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 1: person went up in the hospital because of the violence

1390
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 1: he did. Uh. He was found at the time through

1391
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 1: the work of an activist who I'm not going to

1392
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 1: name on this it doesn't hide her involvement, but I

1393
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,839
Speaker 1: don't want to add any harassment. But but an activist

1394
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:35,439
Speaker 1: who was at Charlottesville and attacked at Charlottesville exposed this guy.

1395
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 1: He was an active duty United States Marine and it

1396
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 1: took a surprising length of time for the core to

1397
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 1: separate this guy. And he's not the only member of

1398
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: the United States Armed Forces. One study that I found

1399
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 1: suggests that about one quarter of all active duty U

1400
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: S soldiers have met a white nationalist while on duty.

1401
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: Like in the military, I actually met a like literally

1402
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: car carrying member of the KKK when I was in

1403
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. Um a guy was in my office

1404
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 1: and he was like part of one of the other platoons,

1405
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 1: and he tried to tell me that it was just

1406
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 1: a local community organization, it wasn't about racism anymore. Um.

1407
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:16,639
Speaker 1: So I told him that racism is a primitive caveman idea,

1408
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 1: and then he was an idiot for being one because

1409
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 1: I was trying to get him to fight me in

1410
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: my office. Since if there's a thing that I could

1411
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:24,760
Speaker 1: have gotten away with when I was in the Marine

1412
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 1: Corps would have been beating the ship out of a

1413
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 1: KKK member as a black guy in my office, Like

1414
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: I could have been like, sir, it was a Nazi.

1415
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: What the fund did you want me? Like? Yeah, that's

1416
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 1: all we're gonna have for today. We're about to go.

1417
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 1: As we've record this, we're probably about the thirty or

1418
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:45,799
Speaker 1: forty five minutes at from from reaching the protest location.

1419
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 1: So we're gonna go do that. And then the next yeah,

1420
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: we gotta grab some Dorito's, protest Doritos and protest water,

1421
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna go March. And so the next

1422
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 1: episode that drops on Thursday will will be us talking

1423
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:02,719
Speaker 1: about that um and we'll we'll also talk a little

1424
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 1: bit about the history of punching Nazis and how well

1425
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 1: it tends to work historically. Not that any of us

1426
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 1: are planning to punch Nazis, but it is a subject

1427
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 1: of debate to punch. All of us know how to punch.

1428
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 1: And this is the city where Richard Spencer was punched

1429
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 1: during the inauguration. So if everybody, basically every guy at

1430
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:24,679
Speaker 1: every radical house party I went to after that was like, hey, baby,

1431
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: that was me. I've got a hundred of guys who

1432
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:38,719
Speaker 1: conclaimed with the puncher. Okay, Well, for a look into

1433
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 1: the history of punching Nazis and whether or not that's

1434
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: a good idea, because it's very much debatable, and for

1435
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,800
Speaker 1: our after rally experiences. You will have to check it

1436
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 1: on Thursday when we were recording all of that, or

1437
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:51,759
Speaker 1: when we will be daring all of that. We're already

1438
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 1: recording it. Time is a flat circle. It's a relative concept.

1439
01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. This has been behind the Bastards. You

1440
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 1: can find us online at www dot behind the bastards

1441
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:03,639
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Twitter at Instagram

1442
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:05,920
Speaker 1: at Bastards pod, and you can find me on Twitter

1443
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 1: at I Right. Okay, see you guys soon. H h

1444
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: h h