1 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: for joining me for session three fifty one of the 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. One consequence of 14 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: the pandemic is that it forced us to take inventory 15 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: of all the things in our life that we may 16 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: be unsatisfied with, and for many of us, career is 17 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: at the top of that list. Maybe you want to 18 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: try on some new heads in the same field, or 19 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: even pivot to a new industry entirely, but the question 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: often is how do I get started? Joining me today 21 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: to answer that question is author and career coach Janie Sutherland. 22 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: Having successfully navigated multiple mid career transitions herself, Janet specializes 23 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 1: in helping mature Black women seek meaningful career and life 24 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: transformations in their midlife. During our conversation, Janis and I 25 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: discussed some workplace red flags that may indicate its time 26 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: for a career change, overcome the financial and personal fears 27 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: that stop us from making a necessary pivot, and how 28 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: to set yourself up for success once a change has 29 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: been made. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, 30 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag 31 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: TBG in session or join us over in the Sister 32 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: Circle to talk more about the episode. You can join 33 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's 34 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today. 35 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: Janais great to be Hey, thanks having me, Doctor Joy. 36 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: So, you were the first female CEO to lead a 37 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: multimillion dollar telecoms company in the Caribbean, built in twenty seventeen, 38 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: but you walked away from this role to start your 39 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: own company. Can you walk us through this career change 40 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: and what motivated you to make this change? 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: I think the motivation there is I don't already move countries. 42 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: You can tell about my accent. I'm English born, but 43 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: I moved to the Caribbean from a successful career to 44 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 2: have a different life, and that lie seemed to ramp up. 45 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: So I made the decision. I was then in my fifties, 46 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: as my fifties rapidly approaching my sixties now, and decided 47 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: this wasn't the life I'd signed up for, so it's 48 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: time to make a change. And if I don't do it, 49 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: something else will. 50 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: So is there anything that happened, because it feels like, 51 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, many of us have these like a how moments, 52 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: or like something happens and we're like, I need to 53 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: make some changes, or my values are not quite an alignment. 54 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: Was there any specific thing that led to this p. 55 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: There was definitely a values challenge because at the time 56 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: we were going through a major restructuring and I looked 57 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: at where the organization was going and realized that's not 58 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: where I want to be going in my career. In fact, 59 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: when I moved to the Caribbean, I already decided that 60 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: I reached the peak of my career. I didn't intend 61 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: to be c sweet. I never came to do this job. 62 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: I came to have a step down, but I found 63 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: myself being ramped up to even more work. I then 64 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: start experiencing my second what I can recall my second 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: bout of burnout, and my body was telling me that 66 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: this is not working for you. You need to do something. 67 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: So what would you define as a career change? And 68 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: how is this different from me applying your skills to 69 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: a different role or shifting industries. How would you define 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: a career change? 71 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: I think a career change that both terms you've said 72 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 2: there are overlapping. A career change is what defines for you. 73 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: You can stay in the same industry and take a 74 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: different role within that industry, or you could do a 75 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: total career pivot, which is what most people think about, 76 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: and they think about major career changes, particularly over a 77 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 2: certain age. Definitely for a midlife career change, what you 78 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: find is a lot of women utilizing the skill sets 79 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: and knowledge that they've garnered over the years and applying 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 2: that in a different way. So for me, I had 81 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 2: a total career pivot, so moved from the corporate world 82 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: went into entrepreneurship. Never been an entrepreneur before, but I 83 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: knew what I wanted from my values what I wanted 84 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: out of life. I wasn't going to get it in 85 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: the corporate world. So I had to define that and 86 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: create that for myself. 87 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: So was your immediate thought, Okay, this does not exist 88 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: in this role, I have to create it for myself. 89 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: Or did you just look around and see if there 90 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: were other rules that you could apply for that would 91 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: give you a better fit. 92 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: The challenge I had at that particular points. I live 93 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: on a small island. I live on an island of 94 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand, one hundred thousand people, and not in 95 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 2: the UK. In the UK. What I've done career changes, 96 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: I've made moves. I've been able to change cities. I've 97 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: been able to change industries. I've been able to get 98 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: a job at the similar level to what I was 99 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: doing or higher At that time. I suppose a big 100 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: fish in a small pond. It was a very prestigious role. 101 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: People knew in the supermarket. It came a lot of 102 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: cachet for want of a better word, with the role, 103 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 2: and I didn't want that. That's not what I wanted. 104 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: I didn't want to be recognized anymore. I think I 105 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: just wanted to be me without the additional pressure of 106 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: having a whole network. We went through various situations, hurricanes, 107 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: one of the core forms of communication for a country 108 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: that comes with additional pressure, and so it's various things 109 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: that kind of led me to think, well, this is 110 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: time for a change for me. I enjoyed it, it 111 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: was good, but I need to do something for me. 112 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: Now, got it. So you mentioned that you were kind 113 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: of able to see the writing on the wall in 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: terms of where your business was going before you lived. 115 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: But for other people, what may be some red flags 116 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: or indications to them that it is time for a 117 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: career change. 118 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: We're talking about career change maybe a maturer woman. And 119 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: the way things are going now is that we are 120 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: living longer. So if you're a woman in her forties fifties, 121 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: you probably have fifteen to twenty more years of work 122 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: life theoretically before you get to officially retire. So my 123 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 2: question always is is can you see yourself doing that 124 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: particular role from the fifteen to two years And if the 125 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: answers know, then you've got time to do something about it. 126 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: It could be in the situation that you're an environment 127 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: that's maybe toxic, that's just not working for you. You're not 128 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: getting the elusive work life balance, you're not getting the 129 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: promotions that you believe you are capable of getting, You're 130 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: dealing with microaggressions. There's a whole variety of things that 131 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: could single a change for you, and it's all unique 132 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: for each of us depending on our situation. 133 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: Got it okay? Okay? So a lot of your work 134 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: now does involve coaching women through these pivots in career changes. 135 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: What would you say are some of the more common 136 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: anxieties that I've been come up with them? 137 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: It's easier to say fear, but fear comes in many guises. 138 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: So it could be fear of failure because if I 139 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: made this change, suppose I don't get it right, Suppose 140 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: it's something different, Suppose I don't have the skill set. 141 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: It could be fear of losing what you've already accrued 142 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: that I mean, like a sunk cost fallacy where you've 143 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: put so much effort into a particular type of career 144 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: that you're thinking and wasting that career if I don't 145 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: do it. A lot of women will cite finance as 146 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: a challenge, and whilst finance does play a role, it 147 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: is not always the be all, and when you really 148 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: dig down into what the challenges are about why they 149 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: want to change, it is not finance because you also 150 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: have to consider, Okay, if you're in that role, what's 151 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: your price? If it's making you feel the way you 152 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: feel and you're uncomfortable, how much? What is your walkaway price? 153 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: How much to keep you to stay? There could be 154 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: precious from family. I'm first generation immigrants, so for us 155 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: women of my age, sometimes we were the first to 156 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: go to university, We were the first to have the 157 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: proverbial big job. Are we letting people down? I often 158 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: see women. I say to some women that sometimes we 159 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: give our parents bragging rights because our parents probably sacrificed 160 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 2: a lot to send us to university, to put us 161 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: through school, and we feel like we're letting them down 162 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: by doing that. That's just a few There's a lots more. 163 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: And as I said, every woman is unique. 164 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to dig a little deeper into 165 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: the sunken cars fallacy, right, because I do think that 166 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: that's one that comes up a lot, Right, like this 167 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: idea that I spent a really long time building this career, 168 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: can I just let it all go now? And like 169 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: did I waste my time? Can you talk a little 170 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: bit about how you might culture with someone around this concern? 171 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: Well, it goes back to what I said about what's 172 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: your price? What will it take to keep you where 173 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: you are? What are you looking for out of your career? 174 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: If it's making you miserable, is that a reason to 175 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 2: really staying? So that's making you unhappy could be even 176 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: detrimental to your health, because, as you said, the body 177 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: has a great way of giving us warning signs of 178 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: when things are not quite going right or the way 179 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: it should do it in our careers. I would then consider, 180 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 2: don't think of you starting over. You're starting from experience 181 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: because you have acquired a level of skill. You've acquired experiences, 182 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 2: you've acquired knowledge that actually puts you in a great 183 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: position to transfer some of those skills. So you could 184 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: be looking at roles that, whilst are not directly the 185 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,719 Speaker 2: same as what you sun call your money into, there 186 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 2: could be skills a lot of skills you take away 187 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: from what you've learned that can apply into a different role. 188 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: So we look at things like that we've taken away 189 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 2: from the role. We also look at your values, because again, 190 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 2: what you wanted maybe in your twenties, your thirties, possibly 191 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 2: your forties, the money, the prestige and everything that comes 192 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: with the financial aspect. It could be that when you 193 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: get to your fifties, you want something different, You want 194 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 2: to take a slower pace. You want to you want 195 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: to enjoy what life is bringing to You want to 196 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 2: enjoy the fruits of your labor per se over those years. 197 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: So then we also look at values and what your 198 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 2: priorities are as well. Along with that. 199 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: More of America Conversation after the Break, Jannee. I wonder 200 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: are you finding that most of the people who you 201 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: work with in coaching are they leaving voluntarily like you did, 202 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 1: like ahead of something happening, like okay, I can see 203 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: where this is going. I want to make a shift. 204 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: Or are you often working with clients who have kind 205 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: of been forced out or like it was intolerable anymore 206 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: for them to be in a police and now they're 207 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:31,359 Speaker 1: making a shift. 208 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: I would say seventy five percent of the women I 209 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: work with are planning, and that's what I help them 210 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: do is to create a plan, because it's far better 211 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: to be in control of the process than feel like 212 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: you've been thrust and forced into the process. So if 213 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: you look at yourself and you're saying a lot of wamen, 214 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: I work with the fifties, maybe say, well, I've had 215 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: a very successful career. I know I'm good at what 216 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: I do, but this isn't what I see myself doing 217 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 2: for X amount of period. I know I may have 218 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: have children to put through college, but at the end 219 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: of college, once they've gone to college, I don't have 220 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: that responsibility per se, It's now time for me. How 221 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: can I plan for that? So we set about working 222 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 2: on a plan. It could be that they need to 223 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 2: create maybe some sort of slush fund to enable them 224 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: to do what they need to do. It could be 225 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: that they start studying while they're working to support the 226 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: next phase of their career. What that looks like. So 227 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: it's all about creating that plan. The twenty five percent 228 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 2: who have been forced the situation, that's a different conversation 229 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: because sometimes they're, for one of a better word, maybe 230 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: traumatized by the experience. So it's really about them building 231 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: rebuilding the confidence and letting them know it wasn't about you. 232 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 2: This situation wasn't about you. But an organization has to downsize, 233 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: has to make that change. It's not personal. However, what 234 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: can we take away from the situation you find yourself 235 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: in right now? You may have extra time. You may 236 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: not considered career change, but now you've actually had the 237 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: time to sit down and think, WHOA, I wasn't entirely 238 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: happy doing that, This is a great opportunity. I am 239 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 2: very much looking at seeing opportunities in the misfortune. M H. 240 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: That feels consistent with what I think we heard from 241 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people in the midst of the pandemic 242 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: and even in the wake of all of these layoffs, 243 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: is that the unexpected silver lining is that people have 244 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: more time to kind of look at like, Hey, did 245 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: I actually enjoy that? And might I want to do 246 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: something different now? 247 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. 248 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: You mentioned this a little bit in one of your 249 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: earlier answers around our relationships with our parents and sometimes 250 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: how their expectations can then maybe keep us in a 251 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: career longer than we wanted to. But I'm curious if 252 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: there are any other cultural or societal expectations that may 253 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: play a role, particularly for Black women when they're considering 254 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: a career change. 255 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, I think we also from a black 256 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 2: women's perspective, we are seeing as the women that have 257 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: it under control, and we don't want to be seen 258 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: as being out of control or indecisive. If we're making 259 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 2: this change, especially, we may have spent an awful lot 260 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: of time creating this career. I know definitely for me 261 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: when I was making the change, when I was changing 262 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: out of this last role from the CEO, I was 263 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: asked if there was something wrong with me? Had I 264 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: been forced out? Was I crazy to leave a good job? 265 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: And persons couldn't recognize that it wasn't about the job. 266 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: I was actually doing this for me. So coultry may 267 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: get a little bit of side eye because are they lying? 268 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 2: Are they really are they being forced out? Are they 269 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: being truthful about what they're doing? And sometimes I think 270 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: persons because they see the outside, they're on the outside 271 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: looking in, and you look like you have this fantastic job, 272 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: you had everything going for you. You've got the car, 273 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: the house, the shoes, the clothes. That isn't satisfying what 274 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: we're feeling inside that look, we're just not happy doing 275 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: what we're doing. I don't need all that. If I 276 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: have a little peace of mind, if I can follow 277 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: the pashion I want to do so sometimes it's negotiating 278 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: or should I say it's ignoring? Should I say ignoring 279 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: what the naysayers may do or may say about what 280 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: you're doing, Because this is your decision. Nobody else can 281 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: live your life for you. It's down to you. 282 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: So let's say you're working with a client in who 283 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: isn't ready for a complete career change, but they might 284 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: be interested in maybe like shifting to another role in 285 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: the same industry. What kinds of things make you work 286 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: with them to do well? 287 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: The first thing I'd say is that that's great. If 288 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: you have found an organization and that's a cultural fit 289 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: for you that you're comfortable with, fabulous, that's half the work. 290 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: That's probably half the work done. What we'd start looking 291 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: at again is what are you looking at? What are 292 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: you looking for? It's very similar to career change. What 293 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: are you looking for on your next role? Where can 294 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: you get it? Where can you get it in the 295 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: organization that you currently are. Have you defined the role 296 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: you want to do and what it looks like. Are 297 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: there persons currently in the organization doing a role that 298 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: you're aspiring to Can you sit down with them? Because again, 299 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: from the outside looking in, we think it's all rainbows 300 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: and flowers, but in reality, maybe something different. And you're 301 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: in a fortunate situation to sit down that person, maybe 302 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: have the mentor you, maybe sponsor you, Maybe you can 303 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: get some sort of career swap, try the role for 304 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: a day. So you're in a great situation where you 305 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: can really maximize the opportunity and talk to persons who 306 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: already doing who are in the field doing what you're 307 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: aspiring to do. So we look at who you could 308 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: tap into. What's your network? Are there any gaps between 309 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: where you are right now to where you want to go? 310 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: And how can we fill those gaps, especially where you 311 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: are right now? 312 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: So you mentioned networking, and I think that that is 313 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: a bit of a scary word for a lot of people. 314 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: And I don't know that most of us even know 315 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: we were talking about when we mean network. So what 316 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: are some tips for like getting started with networking? 317 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, what I learned very quickly person 318 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: myself is living on a small island, I cannot connect 319 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: with my target market. My target market doesn't live here 320 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 2: pretty much. My target market is overseas, So I've had 321 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 2: to learn to network virtually. So you don't have to 322 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: go into a room to shake hands and have thirty 323 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: second elevator pitch or whatever it is you have that 324 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: people are frightened of. You can connect with people on LinkedIn. 325 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: I've made some great relationships with persons on LinkedIn who 326 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: I meet when I travel. I can go and meet 327 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: them and they've come here and I've met them. So 328 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: you can look at how maybe you can write pieces. 329 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: You can write blog articles about particular topic they're interested 330 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: in and put that on LinkedIn. So you can look 331 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: at the virtual ways of connecting. If you have an 332 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: opportunity to go to conferences, is that a way for 333 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: you to basically set out who is it you'd like 334 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 2: to meet? If you look at the ten d's that 335 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: are going to the conference, who is it you'd like 336 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 2: to meet? Can you reach out to them before you 337 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: go to have a connection and say, let's have a coffee. 338 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: I'd like to have a quick chat. Maybe that's something 339 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: you wrote. So it's about thinking outside the box when 340 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: it comes to networking. It's not the additional I need 341 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: to be in a powasuit in a room shaking sweaty palms. 342 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you mentioned like writing blag posts and articles 343 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: on LinkedIn as a way for you know, trying to 344 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: maybe increase your network. Are there other tips and things 345 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: that you found helpful in using LinkedIn that you can 346 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: offer to the community. 347 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: Yes, I tend LinkedIn lives. If someone's doing the topic 348 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: you're quite interested in, jump on the LinkedIn live, ask 349 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 2: your questions, connect with other persons that maybe ask similar 350 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: questions to your similar interests. When you're on LinkedIn, it's 351 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 2: not just about putting the post, it's about interacting with 352 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: the post. This is about creating connections. We look to 353 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: have connections and followers, So if someone responds to your 354 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: posts that you've posted, you respond to them. If you 355 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 2: see a post that you like, you can comment. You 356 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 2: don't have to be connect to those individuals. So it's 357 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: just basically using it to reach out to persons that 358 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: you're interested in. Maybe there's person in an organization that 359 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 2: you'd like to connect you'd like to know more about. 360 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: You can ask people that work for that organization what's 361 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: it like to work there? Or how can I find 362 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: out more about this? Again, without having to feel like 363 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: you're obligated or under pressed to do that, So don't 364 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: get frightened by the platform. Just use it, Just start 365 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: using it. And if you haven't been very adept at 366 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: using it, I would say set yourself a target maybe 367 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: fifteen minutes a day, fifteen minutes every other day where 368 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: you're going to interact with posts. If there's people in 369 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: your feed that you may be connected, but the content 370 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: they write or the content they post isn't for you, 371 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: you can actually take them out of your feed without 372 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: losing the connection. So there's various ways of making sure 373 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 2: the feed or what you see is relevant to what 374 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: you're looking at and what you're interested in. 375 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So, Jennis, it 376 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: sounds like a lot of your suggestions are interacting with 377 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: people at a high level, not necessarily sending them private messages, 378 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: which is I think what people often go straight to, 379 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: right like, oh this person works in this cool organization. 380 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: Let me send them the message that I want to 381 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: be connected. What are the strategies for like actually sending 382 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: an impactful message to someone if you're going to reach 383 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: out in that way. 384 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: If you're going to reach out in that way, don't 385 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: just connect. The message I normally say is that I 386 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: see you, we have the similar interests, or you liked 387 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: the particular post, or you made a comment on this 388 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: and I have same views. It'd be great to be connected. 389 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: Keep it very simple. It doesn't have to be, you know, 390 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: a whole book or an essay, but show that you've 391 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: had some connections, show that you've been interested in what 392 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: they've done. It maybe an interesting post, or I really 393 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 2: like the post you did, I have thoughts about it. 394 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 2: These are thoughts I had about it, or I'd like 395 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: to know more about this. So again, keep it simple. 396 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 2: Just keep it very, very simple. 397 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,239 Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier that sometimes finances come up as 398 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: an area of contingent for people who are considering a 399 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: career change, and sometimes they make it maybe more of 400 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: an issue than it typically is, or maybe can you 401 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: say a little bit about how people can actually take 402 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: care of their finances while they are thinking about a 403 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: career shift. So what kinds of things do they need 404 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: to keep in mind around like financial stability but also 405 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: considering a move. 406 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,239 Speaker 2: The first things people think about when they're going to 407 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: change careers is that are going to take a drop 408 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 2: in salary. That's usually the first fear, and that's because 409 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: they're usually thinking, I'm going in an entry level you're 410 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: not necessarily going in an entry level unless you're moving 411 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: from maybe going from a corporate role to surgeon. Obviously 412 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: you're not going to go you're not going like for like. 413 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: But if you've had a professional role, you've had lots 414 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: of transferable skills. There are ways of looking at the 415 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: skills that role requires that could align with what you're 416 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: currently doing now. If there's a situation where you feel 417 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: that look and may have to take if you drop 418 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: in salary, look at it as maybe a temporary stop, 419 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: because this isn't where you're going to end up. You 420 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: may want to take a step back to come forward 421 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 2: temporarily because it gives you a chance to get a 422 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: foot in the door of what you want to do. 423 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 2: If you know that this is what you want to 424 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: do in advance. We talked about planning then actually have 425 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 2: a fund set aside or some savings set aside that 426 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: says I need to save X amount per month or 427 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: whatever period, so that allows me not to have to 428 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: worry about the financial aspect and while I pursue this 429 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 2: next career stage. So there's lots of different ways of 430 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: getting around it. Are there ways you can cut back 431 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 2: if necessary? Is it a case, maybe you do wait 432 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: a little bit because you know, right now you may 433 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: have children at college. You know, financially, it's not feaes 434 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: for me to say I can't. I've going to go 435 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: and to do that now take a drop in salary. 436 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 2: But I do know that they have another eighty months 437 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: left at college. Then after that I will have some 438 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: funds available. So how can I start planning my career 439 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 2: so in a position when that happens, I can start 440 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 2: straight away. So it's just looking at it from different angles. 441 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: I have a Macguyva mindset. Is what I say is 442 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 2: that there's always a solution. You may not seed straight away, 443 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: but there's always solution, and it doesn't have to be pretty, 444 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 2: but you have to focus on does it get the 445 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: job done? 446 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: So, in your experience, have there been specific industries that 447 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: you feel like have been more flexible or accommodating to 448 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: people who make career changes later in life. 449 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: I haven't come across cicular industries. I think generally, what 450 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 2: I have found is that industries are now coming to 451 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 2: terms the fact that we are a aging population and 452 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 2: the skill sets me main Once sometimes we took for 453 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 2: granted having this pipeline of younger workers coming through is diminishing, 454 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: so they're having to consider maturer workers and I want 455 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: to say older. I'm not say old because I am 456 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: of the vintage workforce, but maturer workers. So they are 457 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 2: starting to get a little more flexible because we have 458 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: more responsibilities outside of children may be careers. There's more 459 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 2: flexibility and what we're doing, and I think the time 460 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 2: is right. If you're in a situation where you want 461 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 2: to go to an organization, it's right for you to 462 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: lay out what is it you're looking for, how you 463 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 2: can be supported to do your role because we do 464 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 2: bring a level of experience you're not going to find 465 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: from a younger workforce. It just stands to reason because 466 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 2: we have accrue that experience. 467 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: Do you think, Dan, is there are certain things that 468 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: workforces can put in police to be able to support 469 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: people who are making this career change. 470 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 2: Yes. When I was at school, when I was much younger, 471 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: we had like career session, so the age maybe high school, 472 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: middle school, not sure what the age they call it 473 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 2: in the US. We would have to then select the 474 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: topics we were going to do that would determine the 475 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: rest of our lives. Pretty much because you're taking the 476 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: exams and stuff like that. So I think what we 477 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: need to start doing is actually introducing a career where 478 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: we always have career assessments. We start looking and having 479 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: conversations about where do you see yourself next in your 480 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 2: career when we have our appraisals and we have our 481 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: one to ones. I was always very proactive in asking 482 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: my employees, where do you see yourself? What is the 483 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: role that you're looking at next in your career? How 484 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: can I support you in getting there? What does that 485 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: look like? So we can start having those and be 486 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: quite open those conversations and not be afraid of thinking 487 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 2: we're losing someone. You know, someone's far happier if you, 488 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: as an employer, are having that conversation with your employee 489 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: that allows you to prepare for that person eventually looks 490 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 2: to move on. They can help cope to the next 491 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: person coming into their role. So it's all that succession 492 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 2: planning and it's very useful to have that structure in place. 493 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: So let's see, and I imagine you do work with 494 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: clients who you know, you get them ready for their 495 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: career change process, and then they are on the other 496 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: side and now, hey, I'm in my new career. I'm 497 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: wondering what it looks like for them to continue thriving 498 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: in this new role, Like what kinds of things do 499 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: people need to consider on the other side of that decision. 500 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: On the other side of that decision, first thing to 501 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: consider is that sometimes we get a little bit scared 502 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: because we're in new pastures. We're a little unsettled because 503 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 2: it's new. Give yourself some time to settle into that position. 504 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 2: Give yourself some time or grace to say, well, I'm 505 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: new to this, and don't be afraid if you need 506 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: some support, if you need help, if you have questions 507 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: and you need answers to don't be afraid to reach out. 508 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 2: I always tell persons that organizations don't employ individuals to 509 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: fail because it's a waste of time for them. They've 510 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: taken a lot of time and energy and money to 511 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: recruit you, so they want you to be a success. 512 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 2: So you need in a position to say, well, actually 513 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: I need support on this or I'm not quite sure 514 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: about that, and reach out and take that support as 515 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 2: and when needed. If you look around you say well 516 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: this isn't quite right, this isn't right for me, Maybe 517 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: it's not the right culture, it's not what I thought 518 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: he was going to be. Don't beat yourself up. What 519 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 2: is it you can do? What is it about that 520 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: position that you're unsettled about. Do some deep diving, some investigation, 521 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: some internal reflection about what is it about that role 522 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: that doesn't appeal to you now you're in it. It 523 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: could be that you're comparing it to a previous role. 524 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 2: It could be that you, as I said, don't have 525 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: the necessary information you need to be a success in 526 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: that role. You feel like you have to be perfect. 527 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: Perfectionism is a big one. You feel like you have 528 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: to be perfect because obviously you knew your other role 529 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: inside out. You're in this position now you don't know 530 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 2: as much. So take that pressure off yourself and take 531 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 2: the time to acclimatize to the new role. 532 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious how you may work with a client 533 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: who you're struggling with their Jennis, because I think a 534 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: lot of black women are a high achieving and have 535 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: been groomed in society has told us that we need 536 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: to be twice as good, and you know all of 537 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: these things. So what kinds of things do you do 538 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: to work with clients who are maybe getting into some 539 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: of these perfectionistic spaces in this new. 540 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: Role, sometimes just about asking them what would happen if 541 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 2: you didn't do it? Whatever the action is that you 542 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: feel like you have to be perfect about what's the 543 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 2: worst that could happen. Sometimes women don't want to ask 544 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: for help, but again, if you don't ask, you don't 545 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: know what could happen. And if the answers no, then 546 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: you're no worse off than where you were when you 547 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 2: started because it was a no then without you actually 548 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: making the question. But if you ask and you get 549 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: a positive response, you've got the support. Who are you 550 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 2: being perfect for? Who are you trying to impress? Who 551 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: is important to? Sometimes we're thinking that other people are 552 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: watching or assessing it, or looking at what we're doing, 553 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: and quite honestly, sometimes they're just not. So take a 554 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: step back and think about if you talk about ten 555 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: percent send to that perfectionist actions that you are going 556 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: to do, where could you apply that ten percent so 557 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 2: that it benefits you more Because no one's going to 558 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: notice that difference because you've set yourself such a high 559 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 2: bar that even if you were fifty percent less, it 560 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: probably still one hundred percent better than that other person 561 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: would have produced. 562 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's so true. Thank you so much 563 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: for sharing it. So you mentioned that one of the 564 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: things that people can do to really support themselves on 565 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: the other side of making this decision to do a 566 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: career change is to get support and engage in other 567 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: resources that might be helpful. Are there any things that 568 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: come to mind from you that you found helpful for 569 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: many of your clients or people you've worked with. 570 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: I listen to a lot of podcasts, a personally, myself, 571 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: reading articles, as I said, following people online. So there's 572 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: lots of different things you can do to help yourself. 573 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 2: And I think talking to other women who have maybe 574 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: done career changes themselves, who you've seen or you admire, 575 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: and ask them how did they do it, how did 576 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: you do it, What did you do differently? What would 577 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: you advise? What would your advice be? I sometimes tell 578 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: women you're not that special in the nicest possible way, 579 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: because quite often we walk around with this me and 580 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: myself and eye mentality in that we imagine that nobody 581 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: else is going through what we're going through. Nobody else 582 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: could understand what we've been through. I'm all on my 583 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: own I have to keep it all in, and that 584 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: then starts making things a lot more difficult because you're 585 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: holding it in and it's making you more frustrated, when 586 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: in fact, if you tap the woman the shoulder, the 587 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: woman next to you, or a couple of chairs down 588 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: and say look, I'm having this challenge or I've experienced 589 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: this and say, oh yeah, I've been through that, this 590 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: is what I did. So having that community or tapping 591 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: into women who have maybe been through a whole process 592 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: before and not thinking that you're on your own is 593 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: the first thing to stop thinking because it's not me, 594 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: myself and I. There's a plethora of women out there 595 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: who have been where you have been and have been successful. 596 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: There's also remembering that you didn't get to where you 597 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: are now without being resilient, without having the strength to 598 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 2: get where you are now. So it's also about tapping 599 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: into that as well. 600 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that, Janie. So as we read, 601 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: but we're closing, advice would you give to somebody who 602 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: is considering a career change but maybe they're still on 603 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: the field. 604 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: Talk to somebody about it, about allaying your fears and 605 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: your concerns, because you need to understand what it is 606 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 2: that's stopping you mentally from your mindset to help you 607 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: overcome some of those fears you're feeling. And if you decide, 608 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: I suppose it's harsh, but is this something you really 609 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: see yourself doing for the next ten to fifteen years 610 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: if you're feeling the way you're feeling. And I'd also say, 611 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: you don't need to be empowered when you already have 612 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: the power. So sometimes women are waiting for someone to 613 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: give them something to make them feel ready, but you 614 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: already have it inside of you. You just need to 615 00:31:58,880 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: be able to unleash it. 616 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: And how can we tap into that genius? Because that's powerful. 617 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us sit in there space 618 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: so feeling like we're waiting for somebody to give us 619 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: the sign to go and make this decision. So how 620 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: can people tap into that? 621 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: It's about looking back at how far you've come, look 622 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: at your journey. For me personally, I was a single, 623 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: divorce mother of two in my twenties. I had no 624 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 2: idea become a CEO of a multimillion dollar company. That 625 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: wasn't But I did know that I was strong, I 626 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: did know that I had a goal. I did know 627 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: that what I'd achieved so far, I'm strong enough to 628 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: go through this whole process in life. There's a lot 629 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 2: more going for me. So it's tapping into your resilience 630 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: you face adversity before, and tapping into your bound's backability 631 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: because you've bounced back. It's about looking at where you 632 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: have face adversity in saying, Okay, what are my learnings 633 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: from that? It didn't keep me down, it gave me something. 634 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: I learned something from it and how can I apply 635 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 2: that going forward? It's about having that inner self belief 636 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: for stronger than we think. And I know it's a 637 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 2: cliche term, but the fact you're here now doing what 638 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: you're doing where you are right now has already proved that. 639 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this, Janis. I know that 640 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: the community we will want to stay connected with you. 641 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: So where can we find you online? What is your 642 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: website as well as any social media channels you'd like 643 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: to share? 644 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: But my website is Janisutherland dot com. I keep it 645 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: nice and simple. My podcast is This Woman can on 646 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: all podcast platforms and as LinkedIn is my happy place 647 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: LinkedIn and Instagram my happy places you can follow me 648 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: and I am Jane Sutherland or connect with me on 649 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: LinkedIn as I am Janey Sutherland, keeping very very simple perfect. 650 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: We will be sure to include Holliday in our show notes. 651 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today, Jennis. 652 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm great to 653 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 2: speak to you, Doctor Joey. 654 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so glad Janis was able to share 655 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: her expertise with us for this episode. To learn more 656 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: about her and the work she's doing, be sure to 657 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls slash 658 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: Session three fifty one, and don't forget to text two 659 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: of your girls right now and tell them to check 660 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist in 661 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls 662 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue 663 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: digging into this topic or just be in community with 664 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: other sisters, come on over and join us in the 665 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed 666 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: just for black women. You can join us at community 667 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced 668 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was 669 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining 670 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continuing this 671 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. 672 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: What's