WEBVTT - Boat Strikes, Impeachment Threats & Immigration Judges 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:10.080 What I saw in that room was one of the 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.119 most troubling things I've seen in my time in public service. 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:19.720 You have two individuals in clear distress, without any means 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:25.840 of locomotion, with a destroyed vessel, who were killed by 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:26.960 the United States. 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:32.680 Congressman Jim Hines, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:37.080 described his reaction to video footage of the second attack 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:41.159 that killed two survivors after an initial strike on an 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:46.520 alleged drug boat in international waters near Venezuela on September two. 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:52.000 Admiral Frank Bradley, who oversaw the attack, and General Dan Caine, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.200 chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, briefed lawmakers today 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:00.440 in a closed door session. Lawmakers and legal experts have 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.600 questioned whether a war crime was committed, and two Congressional 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:09.560 panels have opened inquiries to determine whether Bradley or Secretary 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.840 of Defense Pete Hegsith might be culpable for orders they 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.000 issued during the operation. After the briefing, Hind said, the 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.440 admiral confirmed that there had not been a kill them 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.679 all order as reported, and that there was not an 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:26.240 order to grant no quarter. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.240 Admiral Bradley and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:37.520 Staff did the right thing, and Admiral Bradley defended the 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:42.040 decisions taken. And Admiral Bradley has a storied career and 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:43.160 he has my respect. 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.280 Joining me is Professor Joshua Castenberg of the University of 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.200 New Mexico Law School. He was a military judge and 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.960 lawyer in the US Air Force. Josh Democratic Senator Chris 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:00.480 Van Holland said the second strike was an extra judicial killing, 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:05.280 amounting to murder or a war crime. What's your analysis 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:06.600 of the second strike? 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.519 So my take on the second strike is partly colored 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:15.519 by the fact that the administration has this changing narrative constantly, 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.720 and the latest narrative that they come up with is 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.079 implausible that somehow these men were going to climb back 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.240 on the vessel and continue on in their cocaine run. 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.840 So having said that, look, you know, the United States 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.399 has convened grand juries for murder on the high seas 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.880 going back to the War of eighteen twelve, and there's 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:40.840 a federal statute prohibiting precisely what occurred, you know, murder 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:45.240 on the High Seas. Now, of course, Trump himself is 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.040 immune from any criminal liability thanks to the Supreme Court's 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.440 decision over a summer ago, and you know, Trump versus 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.800 United States. But it seems to mean that nobody else 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.600 is immune from that kind of a charge and the 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.800 other and who's going to pursue it. I don't think 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.360 the Attorney General of the United States is going to 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.639 differ from the White House's version of events or their 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:10.840 own legal reasoning. 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.800 One of the things that heg Seth said yesterday was 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.400 that he left the room, he had other meetings before 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:24.200 the second strike. Let's just say that's true. Who's responsible 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:29.560 the commander Navy Vice Admiral Frank Bradley, who ordered it, 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:35.040 or the Defense secretary who reportedly approved the overall operation. 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.520 Well they all are. And I'm chuckling in a sad 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.280 kind of way about that claim of Secretary of Defense 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.920 or Secretary of War. Heg Seth's answer and claim, because 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.040 at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.160 in this regard. You know, coming out of World War One, 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.560 if not the Civil War, the United States embraced the 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:02.880 doctrine of command responseility, and we particularly saw that play 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:07.200 out in World War Two at the Nuremberg and International 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.080 Tribunal for or crimes in Tokyo. Those trials, and even 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:15.080 in US law when the Army under General MacArthur prosecuted 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.919 generally Yamashta, nobody ever alleged that he was the trigger 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.640 puller or gave an order for his troops to massacre 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.120 thousands of innocent Filipinos. Is the United States liberated the 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.080 island they prosecuted, and for failing to control as troops 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:33.560 and for creating the environment where it would be made possible. 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.400 The only thing in a real rule of law setting 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:42.080 that would save Hegsath is if he preferred uc him 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.400 j charges against the individual who gave the order. But 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.680 I don't think that's going to happen. I think they're 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:52.040 all banking on protection from Republican allies in the House 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.760 and Senate, in their favorite go to media sources, and 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.200 then ultimately presidential pardons, which have now been given to 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:00.679 Honduran drug dealers. 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.159 With the news of this second strike, it seems like 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.640 at tension has been diverted a little from the Trump 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:15.240 administration's main campaign against suspected drug smugglers, where the military 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.360 has killed eighty three people. What do you think about 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:20.600 the legality of the whole campaign. 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:26.080 So we are not at war with Venezuela, and the 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:32.120 idea that United States domestic law can reach into Venezuelan 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:37.120 waters has no basis. However, and this is a big caveat. 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:43.479 Under international maritime law, any nation can stop actions such 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:48.320 as piracy or other high crimes that occur on the sea. 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.360 In order to do that, you have to have absolute 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:58.919 correct intelligence that a crime such as international drug trafficking 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:01.839 is a occurring, and there has to be some sort 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.000 of agreement among nations that that is occurring. And on 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.880 top of that, you have to be able to show 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:15.599 that what you're doing is consistent proportionality wise to the 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:20.200 crime involved. And the problem with that second aspect of it, 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:24.039 the proportionality aspect, is that the United States Coast Guard, 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.280 which most often does not use that kind of lethal force, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:33.680 does an excellent job of stopping kilo upon keilo upon 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.000 kilo of cocaine coming into the United States. They don't 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.960 catch at all. So you know, the argument that this 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.360 is lawful is sort of stretching the realism of law 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.039 into the alice in Wonderland of law. 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:55.120 Also yesterday, a Pentagon inspector Jennal's report delivered to lawmakers 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.960 found that hag Seth's actions in what's been called sig 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.839 Gate posed a risk to personnel and missions. But again, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.560 is this going anywhere? Even if it did well. 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.240 First of all, you'd have to have a member of 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.560 the House file an article of impeachment. The article of 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.160 impeachment would have to be taken up by a committee, 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.920 then by the House. I don't see an appetite for 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.560 forcing heg Seth out through the legislative branch by the 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.680 Republican Party. Now he of course could resign. The President 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.080 could fire him, but I don't see an appetite right 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.520 now for that in the White House either, or that 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.560 that's possible in terms of the criminal law of the 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.760 United States. I don't see any action going against him 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.920 on that one. At the end of the day, Unfortunately, 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.880 all it is likely to do is to create a 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:53.120 historic legacy on the character of Hegseth himself. But it 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.680 also erodes trust within the department, because if you're a 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.760 uniform warfighter, you need to have trust in your chain 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.280 of command, and this certainly erodes it. 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.960 Let's turn now to the video released last month by 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:14.480 six Democratic members of Congress directly addressing active duty military 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:16.240 and intelligence personnel. 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:20.040 Right now, the threats to our constitution aren't just coming 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:21.720 from a miroad, but from right here at home. 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:22.720 Our laws are clear. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.280 You can refuse illegal orders. 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.560 You can refuse illegal orders. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.120 You must refuse illegal orders. No one has to carry 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.200 out orders that violate the law or our constitution. All 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:40.200 six who have military or intelligence backgrounds were just telling 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:46.480 service members and intelligence officers what the law is. Yet 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.679 President Trump has called them traders and said they were 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.280 engaging in seditious behavior punishable by death. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.800 Well, first of all, all the members of the House 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.080 and Senate who made that VIDI said was you have 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.760 a duty to obey the law, and that includes a 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:09.080 duty to disobey on lawful orders. That's a correct statement 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:13.160 of the law. And I don't think that any investigation 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.160 into those members should ever come up as a result 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.120 of them making a correct statement of the law. I 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.760 think that you know that that concern is real based 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.320 on this belicosity that's come out of the White House, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:32.960 and that belicosity includes the use of the federalized National 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:34.920 Guard in our cities. 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:39.280 Apparently the FBI headquarters is pressuring. This is, according to 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.040 Bloomberg reporting, the bureau's domestic terrorism agents to open a 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:50.120 seditious conspiracy investigation into those six Democratic lawmakers. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.320 Yeah. You know. I was asked the other day in 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.480 the local news if there is precedent for this, or 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:03.880 precedent for a military investigation, and to Senator Mark Kelly, 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.240 and I said no that there is not, not in 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.120 the United States. There is precedent for it elsewhere. One 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.040 of the things that the framers of our constitution and 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.520 all their genius wanted to do was to create a 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:23.840 government that was responsible to the people through the legislative branch. 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.840 And the last time something like this happened wasn't in 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.880 the United States. It was before the United States was created. 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:37.280 It was Oliver Cromwell using his new Model Army to 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.760 pressure Parliament to take votes the way that he wanted 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.480 them to take votes, including the execution of Charles the First. 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:50.040 We built a constitution to prevent the very thing that 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.880 apparently the FBI's leadership seems to now think is plausible 0:10:55.679 --> 0:11:01.080 seditious conspiracy. Look to me, if it was a high 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.720 crime or misdemeanor, it's the attempt to cower members of 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.200 Congress from exercising their free speech rights. It's not the 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.199 exercise of those free speech rights themselves. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.960 Is it sort of absurd to claim that you know 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.360 under that statute that this was seditious conspiracy? 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.320 Again, I go back to my Alice in Wonderland quote. Yes, 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.040 in the rule of law, it certainly is that you 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.600 need to go back to the Civil War, and you 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:35.160 can look at members of Congress slaveholder like Benjamin Gwynn 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:40.400 Harris from Maryland, or a pacifist like Alexander Long, who 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.760 gave anti war speeches and in Harris's case, who actually 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.200 gave a prayer on the floor of Congress for a 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:52.320 Southern victory. And at no time were those two sitting 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:57.840 members of Congress investigated or prosecuted by the Lincoln Admiration. 0:11:58.040 --> 0:11:59.560 I know there are people who say, well, what about 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:03.440 Van Lane, but the Landingham was no longer in Congress, 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.120 and even that episode has been condemned today. So no, 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.440 I mean this. You know, every time you and I 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.120 speak about the administration, I say, look, they're pushed the envelope. 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:19.360 But on this particular case, this truly is it's beyond absurd, 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:24.439 It's truly an affront to the Constitution, the separation of powers, 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.600 and the ability of members of Congress to represent their 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.920 constituents on the very fundamental positions that a majority of 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.280 their constituents elected them to do. Again, it goes back 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.800 to the pre revolutionary days, the mentality of Cromwell and 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.560 the rule of the major generals and the dictatorship of 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.040 the mid sixteen hundreds in Britain, the very thing we 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:47.560 had a revolution against. 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.679 Thanks so much, josh that's Professor Joshua Castenberg of the 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.720 University of New Mexico Law School. Coming up next. Why 0:12:55.760 --> 0:13:00.360 do Republicans keep filing articles of impeachment against judge they 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.119 disagree with? This is Bloomberg. 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.720 I am right now calling on the House of Representatives 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.520 to impeach Judge bosor. 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.160 Republican Senator Ted Cruz has been on something of a 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.640 crusade to impeach judges who issue decisions he doesn't agree with, 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.319 not only calling for the impeachment of Judge James Boseberg, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.760 the chief judge of the District Court for the DC's Circuit, 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:27.600 but also Marilyn Judge Deborah Boardman. Cruise even scheduled a 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:34.439 Senate Judiciary subcommittee hearing entitled Impeachment Holding Rogue Judges Accountable, 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:39.240 although that hearings schedule for Wednesday was abruptly canceled on 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.640 Wednesday morning. Cruise isn't alone. Republicans have filed a wave 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:48.120 of impeachment resolutions this year against judges they disagree with, 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:53.200 despite the fact that only fifteen judges have faced impeachment 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:58.160 since eighteen oh five and none since twenty ten. More 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:02.640 than fifty retired federal judges appointed by presidents of both 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.640 parties are warning that using impeachment as a tool for 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:12.560 political retaliation against judges is a dangerous violation of constitutional 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:17.440 norms and judicial independence. My guest is retired federal appellate 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.880 Judge Paul Michelle, who is on the DC Federal Circuit 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.800 Court of Appeals. Judge Michelle, why do you think Republicans 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:29.960 are continuing to call for the impeachment of federal judges 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:35.120 when it's so highly highly unlikely that a judge would 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.320 be impeached, So why go through this effort? 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.440 Well, June, I think that there is a campaign underway 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:47.720 that seems intended to intimidate judges, to try to shatter 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:53.000 their independence and their ability to rule. Impartially under the law. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:58.720 It's an attempt to influence their decisions, which is completely improper. 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.880 Under our constitutional system, judges are intended to be impartial, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:10.000 independent of both the Congress and the executive branch. It's 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.280 worked well for nearly two hundred and fifty years, and 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:17.000 there's no basis that makes any sense for departing from 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.360 that tradition and those precedents. Now. I think the Republican 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.960 members who are participating in this kind of a campaign 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:30.880 are just reacting to pressure from the administration and worries 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:35.600 about reelection and contributions and the like. But that's not 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.280 a good excuse because they know full well that disagreement 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.040 with a ruling by a judge is not a proper 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.880 ground for impeachment or removal from office. It's not even 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:52.560 close to a proper ground, because the Constitution itself spells 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:57.440 out explicitly what the proper grounds are, and as you know, 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:04.040 the phrase is treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors, 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.560 and clearly a judicial ruling applying the law as best 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.880 the judge can is none of those things, and therefore 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:17.040 not even close to being a candidate for impeachment, much 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.080 less trial in the US Senate. So I think it's 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:26.760 basically an exercise and intimidation, a publicity stunt, and not 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.600 a serious effort, and it's not responsible. And worse than that, 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.560 it's harmful to the country because it shakes the confidence 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:39.840 of all American citizens in the independence and rectitude of 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:44.040 the courts. And everybody in the end depends on the 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.280 courts to protect their rights. So everybody has a stake 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.880 in this, not just rich people or big corporations. Every 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:57.520 individual citizen is threatened if the court's rule under political 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:03.480 coercion rather than the steady precedents of statutes and higher 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.320 court rulings. So this is really a very big deal, 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.159 a very big turning point for the country. And for 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:14.600 two centuries and more we haven't had this. We've only 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.520 had a total of thirteen judges impeached and about seven 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.520 were convicted at Senate trial, and in every case it 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:28.439 was for plainly serious crimes like outright money bribery. Sorry 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.800 to say that a judge was guilty of such conduct, 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.359 but a few have been over the two hundred years. 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.959 But this is totally different. This has nothing to do 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.680 with high crimes. This is high politics. 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.200 So judges are human. Do you think that any of them, 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.360 perhaps concerned for their safety the safety of their families, 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.520 are being intimidated in some way. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.719 Well, there's certainly efforts to try to intimidate them and 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.280 coerce them and affect their rulings. And you're quite correct 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:03.040 to put not only on the judges but on their families. 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:07.520 Judges have had various forms of harassment, over one hundred 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.880 cases of unordered pizzas being delivered, often late at night. 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.400 In many cases, the pizza deliveries have cited the name 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.560 of the murdered son of a judge in New Jersey, 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.280 Esther Sallas. Her son answered the door. She was obviously 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.439 the target of the assassin, but the son happen to 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:29.000 answer the door and was shot and killed. Judge Sallas's 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.480 husband was critically wounded. Fortunately the judge herself was not. 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.280 But the whole thing was a horror show. And so 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:41.960 when today's judges get pizzas in the name of Daniel Anderley, 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.840 it's a message they know Daniel Anderley was the murdered 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.720 son of a fellow judge, And judges tell us that 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.280 they knew when they took the job and of course 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.480 all judges are volunteers. No one has to be a judge. 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.200 It's a high honor. And you know you're going to 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.960 be unpopular with a lot of peace. That's in the 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.960 nature of the job. You know you'll be criticized in 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.959 the media. You know that there will be parties who 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.920 will be very unhappy with your rulings. Sometimes both parties 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.720 are unhappy, always one party, the losing party, is extremely unhappy, 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:20.080 and often there is criticism from many other people. Judges 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.080 all know that they accept that what they can't accept 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:27.000 is serious threats. So, for example, when the swat team 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.399 shows up at a judge's house at midnight based on 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.399 a malicious false report of a shooting in progress, it 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.920 scares the devil out of the whole family and upsets 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.119 the judge. So it's not just pizza deliveries, it's also 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:47.360 swat teams. It's also vicious death threats, phone calls, text messages, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.960 and even that children of some judges have been harassed 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:55.080 on their way to school by fanatical individuals who've been 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:59.879 inflamed by extreme rhetoric on social media, including some of 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:03.600 it coming from high government officials and members of the Congress, 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:08.720 which is just despicable and very unfortunate. We've never had 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:12.040 that before in this country and we shouldn't tolerate it. 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:16.359 Now, speaking of members of Congress, Senator Ted Cruz, who 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.960 leads the sub committee, has called for the impeachment of 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:24.320 Judge James Boseberg, a judge whom the Attorney General has 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.560 called out by name. Why do you think Boseburg has 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:29.440 been repeatedly targeted. 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.520 Well, he's one of a number of judges who's ruled 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:39.040 in cases involving challenges to the lawfulness of administration actions, 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.359 and like some of the other judges, not in every case, 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.520 but in some cases they've ruled that the law was 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.720 violated by the administration. And in Judge Boseburg's case, Chief 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.240 Judge Boseburg, I should say it was more than one 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:59.080 case that upset the administration. Now, as to Senator Cruz, 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:04.200 Senator Cruz is an exceptionally smart individual, a very well 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:10.600 qualified lawyer of great experience. He's an absolutely superb advocate 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:14.320 and was the leading solicitor for the state of Texas 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.840 before he became a senator. He was a White House 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.320 lawyer before that, and you know the rest of his biography. 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:24.840 He knows better. He knows these are not impeachable offenses. 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.679 He knows it clearly, So I can only guess that 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:33.400 he's acting for other motives not to apply the law 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:38.760 of impeachment. Again, whether it's the hearings threatened by Chairman 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:44.040 Cruise of the Judiciary Subcommittee on the Courts, or whether 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.960 it's somebody in the White House or the Justice Department, 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:52.480 these threatening verbal attacks cause real danger to judges that 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:57.840 the Marshal Service has bedded and declared that there are 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.520 hundreds of serious threats, just crank threats. We're used to 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.600 crank threats, that's not so serious, but serious threats and dangers. 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.320 As you know, Justice Kavanaugh had a would be assassin 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:14.119 armed on his block prowling around looking for Justice Kavanaugh 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:19.280 and that individuals recently convicted and sentenced. So the dangers 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:20.560 are really quite real. 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:21.400 Now. 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.320 You asked a very good question earlier. Are the judges 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:28.480 actually being intimidated in the sense that they're changing their 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.280 ruling from what they would normally rule. I don't know 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:36.000 of any instance of that so far, but the pressure 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.400 campaign has been going on. It started years ago. This 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.680 is not only under the present administration. But it has 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:48.240 ramped up dramatically in the last ten months. And ultimately, judges, 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:51.280 however courageous and committed they are, and I think they 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.399 are both to a man to a woman, who were 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.960 not perfect. But we are devoted to the country. That's 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.400 why instead of making a lot of money a big 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.920 fancy law firm or corporation, we became judges at far 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.879 far lower salaries. It's an honor to serve the people. 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.560 I did it for twenty two years. I loved every 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:13.080 day of it, and all the judges talk about it 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:17.400 that way. But ultimately, judges too are human, and if 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:21.159 they feel like their family members are terrified and their 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.200 children are being harassed, and there are death threats coming 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:28.119 in that the Marshall Service evaluates as serious, at some 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.959 point humans are going to have a stress point of failure, 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.720 just like a wing on an airplane. You know, enough 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.840 stress and you can break anything, particularly when it's elongated 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:41.760 over time. And that's what we're seeing here. So, yeah, 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:45.359 they're holding up fine now, but can we be assured 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.680 they'll continue to hold up fine if this pressure campaign, 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.159 which keeps escalating, goes on and on and on, and 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:55.480 the Article three coalition of which I'm a part. As 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:58.840 you know, it's an arm of Keep our Republic of 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:03.480 pre Existing Check charitable Civics education organization that's been in 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.439 operation for about five years. The coalition is new just 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.560 this year. It has fifty two retired judges, both trial 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:14.959 and impellate as members, and incidentally, about half of them 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:18.159 were appointed by Republican administrations and the other half by 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:22.359 Democratic administration, so it's totally balanced, and it's really non 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:25.679 political because it's a group of people devoted to the 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.600 rule of law, not the rule of any one man 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:32.280 or woman. So this is a very dramatic moment for 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:35.920 the country to come to grips with, and I'm very 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:40.920 hopeful that the unbroken tradition and precedent of two hundred 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:44.520 and fifty years will will carry forward and be honored 0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:49.440 by everybody in power now and hopefully the really vicious rhetoric, 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:54.840 really inflammatory rhetoric, people being called leftist lunatics and people 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:59.280 who hate America and rogue judges or activist judges. If 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:03.360 a judge is ruling on the basis of personal politics, 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.680 that would be fair to say that's an activist judge. 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:09.920 You could also say it's a completely improper judge, betraying 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:12.879 their oath. But if a judge rules against an administration 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:17.119 because of a statute, it's the job of the judge 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.520 to interpret the statute and apply it. And if the 0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:24.720 judge finds that the administration's action is contrary to law, 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:29.520 the judge is obligated to so rule and to impose remedies, 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:34.800 including injunctions. That's not being activists, that's not being rogue. 0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:38.119 It's actually just a judge doing the normal thing that 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:41.919 judges do every single day. That's actually their job. So 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.760 instead of being castigated, they should be respected. You don't 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:48.040 have to agree with them, you don't have to like them, 0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:51.000 you don't have to like their ruling. You can criticize them, 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:55.520 including in strong terms in public, and that's a constitutional 0:25:55.600 --> 0:26:01.080 right of everybody. But to foment violence against is just 0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:03.960 beyond any reasonable line. 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:07.320 Thanks so much for joining me today, judge. That's retired 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:11.480 Judge Paul Michelle of the DC Federal Circuit Court of Appeals. 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:15.399 Coming up next. Why the Trump administration is firing so 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:24.160 many immigration judges? This is bloomberg. The Trump administration has 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:29.720 fired dozens of immigration judges since January. Their employees of 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:34.200 the Justice Department and not housed within an independent court system. 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:38.240 The administration has targeted judges during or at the end 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.679 of their two year probationary periods, as well as some 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:45.280 who had sat on the bench for years. The administration 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:50.960