1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: What I saw in that room was one of the 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 2: most troubling things I've seen in my time in public service. 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: You have two individuals in clear distress, without any means 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 2: of locomotion, with a destroyed vessel, who were killed by 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: the United States. 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 3: Congressman Jim Hines, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 3: described his reaction to video footage of the second attack 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 3: that killed two survivors after an initial strike on an 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 3: alleged drug boat in international waters near Venezuela on September two. 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 3: Admiral Frank Bradley, who oversaw the attack, and General Dan Caine, 12 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, briefed lawmakers today 13 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: in a closed door session. Lawmakers and legal experts have 14 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 3: questioned whether a war crime was committed, and two Congressional 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: panels have opened inquiries to determine whether Bradley or Secretary 16 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 3: of Defense Pete Hegsith might be culpable for orders they 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: issued during the operation. After the briefing, Hind said, the 18 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 3: admiral confirmed that there had not been a kill them 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: all order as reported, and that there was not an 20 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: order to grant no quarter. 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: Admiral Bradley and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: Staff did the right thing, and Admiral Bradley defended the 23 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: decisions taken. And Admiral Bradley has a storied career and 24 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: he has my respect. 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: Joining me is Professor Joshua Castenberg of the University of 26 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: New Mexico Law School. He was a military judge and 27 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: lawyer in the US Air Force. Josh Democratic Senator Chris 28 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 3: Van Holland said the second strike was an extra judicial killing, 29 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 3: amounting to murder or a war crime. What's your analysis 30 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 3: of the second strike? 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: So my take on the second strike is partly colored 32 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: by the fact that the administration has this changing narrative constantly, 33 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: and the latest narrative that they come up with is 34 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: implausible that somehow these men were going to climb back 35 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: on the vessel and continue on in their cocaine run. 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: So having said that, look, you know, the United States 37 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: has convened grand juries for murder on the high seas 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: going back to the War of eighteen twelve, and there's 39 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: a federal statute prohibiting precisely what occurred, you know, murder 40 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: on the High Seas. Now, of course, Trump himself is 41 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: immune from any criminal liability thanks to the Supreme Court's 42 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: decision over a summer ago, and you know, Trump versus 43 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: United States. But it seems to mean that nobody else 44 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: is immune from that kind of a charge and the 45 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: other and who's going to pursue it. I don't think 46 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: the Attorney General of the United States is going to 47 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: differ from the White House's version of events or their 48 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: own legal reasoning. 49 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 3: One of the things that heg Seth said yesterday was 50 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: that he left the room, he had other meetings before 51 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: the second strike. Let's just say that's true. Who's responsible 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: the commander Navy Vice Admiral Frank Bradley, who ordered it, 53 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: or the Defense secretary who reportedly approved the overall operation. 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: Well they all are. And I'm chuckling in a sad 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: kind of way about that claim of Secretary of Defense 56 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: or Secretary of War. Heg Seth's answer and claim, because 57 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter 58 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: in this regard. You know, coming out of World War One, 59 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: if not the Civil War, the United States embraced the 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: doctrine of command responseility, and we particularly saw that play 61 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: out in World War Two at the Nuremberg and International 62 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: Tribunal for or crimes in Tokyo. Those trials, and even 63 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: in US law when the Army under General MacArthur prosecuted 64 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: generally Yamashta, nobody ever alleged that he was the trigger 65 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: puller or gave an order for his troops to massacre 66 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: thousands of innocent Filipinos. Is the United States liberated the 67 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: island they prosecuted, and for failing to control as troops 68 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: and for creating the environment where it would be made possible. 69 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: The only thing in a real rule of law setting 70 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: that would save Hegsath is if he preferred uc him 71 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: j charges against the individual who gave the order. But 72 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to happen. I think they're 73 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: all banking on protection from Republican allies in the House 74 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: and Senate, in their favorite go to media sources, and 75 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: then ultimately presidential pardons, which have now been given to 76 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: Honduran drug dealers. 77 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 3: With the news of this second strike, it seems like 78 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 3: at tension has been diverted a little from the Trump 79 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 3: administration's main campaign against suspected drug smugglers, where the military 80 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 3: has killed eighty three people. What do you think about 81 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 3: the legality of the whole campaign. 82 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: So we are not at war with Venezuela, and the 83 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: idea that United States domestic law can reach into Venezuelan 84 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: waters has no basis. However, and this is a big caveat. 85 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: Under international maritime law, any nation can stop actions such 86 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: as piracy or other high crimes that occur on the sea. 87 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: In order to do that, you have to have absolute 88 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: correct intelligence that a crime such as international drug trafficking 89 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: is a occurring, and there has to be some sort 90 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: of agreement among nations that that is occurring. And on 91 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: top of that, you have to be able to show 92 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: that what you're doing is consistent proportionality wise to the 93 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: crime involved. And the problem with that second aspect of it, 94 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: the proportionality aspect, is that the United States Coast Guard, 95 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: which most often does not use that kind of lethal force, 96 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: does an excellent job of stopping kilo upon keilo upon 97 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: kilo of cocaine coming into the United States. They don't 98 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: catch at all. So you know, the argument that this 99 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: is lawful is sort of stretching the realism of law 100 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: into the alice in Wonderland of law. 101 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: Also yesterday, a Pentagon inspector Jennal's report delivered to lawmakers 102 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: found that hag Seth's actions in what's been called sig 103 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 3: Gate posed a risk to personnel and missions. But again, 104 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 3: is this going anywhere? Even if it did well. 105 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: First of all, you'd have to have a member of 106 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: the House file an article of impeachment. The article of 107 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: impeachment would have to be taken up by a committee, 108 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: then by the House. I don't see an appetite for 109 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: forcing heg Seth out through the legislative branch by the 110 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: Republican Party. Now he of course could resign. The President 111 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: could fire him, but I don't see an appetite right 112 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: now for that in the White House either, or that 113 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: that's possible in terms of the criminal law of the 114 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: United States. I don't see any action going against him 115 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: on that one. At the end of the day, Unfortunately, 116 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: all it is likely to do is to create a 117 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: historic legacy on the character of Hegseth himself. But it 118 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: also erodes trust within the department, because if you're a 119 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: uniform warfighter, you need to have trust in your chain 120 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: of command, and this certainly erodes it. 121 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: Let's turn now to the video released last month by 122 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 3: six Democratic members of Congress directly addressing active duty military 123 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: and intelligence personnel. 124 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: Right now, the threats to our constitution aren't just coming 125 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: from a miroad, but from right here at home. 126 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 4: Our laws are clear. 127 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: You can refuse illegal orders. 128 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 4: You can refuse illegal orders. 129 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: You must refuse illegal orders. No one has to carry 130 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 3: out orders that violate the law or our constitution. All 131 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 3: six who have military or intelligence backgrounds were just telling 132 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 3: service members and intelligence officers what the law is. Yet 133 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 3: President Trump has called them traders and said they were 134 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 3: engaging in seditious behavior punishable by death. 135 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, all the members of the House 136 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: and Senate who made that VIDI said was you have 137 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: a duty to obey the law, and that includes a 138 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: duty to disobey on lawful orders. That's a correct statement 139 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: of the law. And I don't think that any investigation 140 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: into those members should ever come up as a result 141 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: of them making a correct statement of the law. I 142 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: think that you know that that concern is real based 143 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: on this belicosity that's come out of the White House, 144 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: and that belicosity includes the use of the federalized National 145 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: Guard in our cities. 146 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: Apparently the FBI headquarters is pressuring. This is, according to 147 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: Bloomberg reporting, the bureau's domestic terrorism agents to open a 148 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: seditious conspiracy investigation into those six Democratic lawmakers. 149 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know. I was asked the other day in 150 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: the local news if there is precedent for this, or 151 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: precedent for a military investigation, and to Senator Mark Kelly, 152 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: and I said no that there is not, not in 153 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: the United States. There is precedent for it elsewhere. One 154 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: of the things that the framers of our constitution and 155 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: all their genius wanted to do was to create a 156 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: government that was responsible to the people through the legislative branch. 157 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: And the last time something like this happened wasn't in 158 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: the United States. It was before the United States was created. 159 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: It was Oliver Cromwell using his new Model Army to 160 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: pressure Parliament to take votes the way that he wanted 161 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: them to take votes, including the execution of Charles the First. 162 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: We built a constitution to prevent the very thing that 163 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: apparently the FBI's leadership seems to now think is plausible 164 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: seditious conspiracy. Look to me, if it was a high 165 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: crime or misdemeanor, it's the attempt to cower members of 166 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: Congress from exercising their free speech rights. It's not the 167 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: exercise of those free speech rights themselves. 168 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 3: Is it sort of absurd to claim that you know 169 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: under that statute that this was seditious conspiracy? 170 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: Again, I go back to my Alice in Wonderland quote. Yes, 171 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: in the rule of law, it certainly is that you 172 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: need to go back to the Civil War, and you 173 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: can look at members of Congress slaveholder like Benjamin Gwynn 174 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: Harris from Maryland, or a pacifist like Alexander Long, who 175 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: gave anti war speeches and in Harris's case, who actually 176 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: gave a prayer on the floor of Congress for a 177 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: Southern victory. And at no time were those two sitting 178 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: members of Congress investigated or prosecuted by the Lincoln Admiration. 179 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: I know there are people who say, well, what about 180 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: Van Lane, but the Landingham was no longer in Congress, 181 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: and even that episode has been condemned today. So no, 182 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean this. You know, every time you and I 183 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: speak about the administration, I say, look, they're pushed the envelope. 184 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: But on this particular case, this truly is it's beyond absurd, 185 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: It's truly an affront to the Constitution, the separation of powers, 186 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: and the ability of members of Congress to represent their 187 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: constituents on the very fundamental positions that a majority of 188 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: their constituents elected them to do. Again, it goes back 189 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: to the pre revolutionary days, the mentality of Cromwell and 190 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: the rule of the major generals and the dictatorship of 191 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: the mid sixteen hundreds in Britain, the very thing we 192 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: had a revolution against. 193 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 3: Thanks so much, josh that's Professor Joshua Castenberg of the 194 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 3: University of New Mexico Law School. Coming up next. Why 195 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 3: do Republicans keep filing articles of impeachment against judge they 196 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,119 Speaker 3: disagree with? This is Bloomberg. 197 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: I am right now calling on the House of Representatives 198 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: to impeach Judge bosor. 199 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: Republican Senator Ted Cruz has been on something of a 200 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: crusade to impeach judges who issue decisions he doesn't agree with, 201 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 3: not only calling for the impeachment of Judge James Boseberg, 202 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: the chief judge of the District Court for the DC's Circuit, 203 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: but also Marilyn Judge Deborah Boardman. Cruise even scheduled a 204 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 3: Senate Judiciary subcommittee hearing entitled Impeachment Holding Rogue Judges Accountable, 205 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 3: although that hearings schedule for Wednesday was abruptly canceled on 206 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: Wednesday morning. Cruise isn't alone. Republicans have filed a wave 207 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 3: of impeachment resolutions this year against judges they disagree with, 208 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 3: despite the fact that only fifteen judges have faced impeachment 209 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 3: since eighteen oh five and none since twenty ten. More 210 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: than fifty retired federal judges appointed by presidents of both 211 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: parties are warning that using impeachment as a tool for 212 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 3: political retaliation against judges is a dangerous violation of constitutional 213 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 3: norms and judicial independence. My guest is retired federal appellate 214 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: Judge Paul Michelle, who is on the DC Federal Circuit 215 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: Court of Appeals. Judge Michelle, why do you think Republicans 216 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 3: are continuing to call for the impeachment of federal judges 217 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: when it's so highly highly unlikely that a judge would 218 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: be impeached, So why go through this effort? 219 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 5: Well, June, I think that there is a campaign underway 220 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 5: that seems intended to intimidate judges, to try to shatter 221 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 5: their independence and their ability to rule. Impartially under the law. 222 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 5: It's an attempt to influence their decisions, which is completely improper. 223 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 5: Under our constitutional system, judges are intended to be impartial, 224 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 5: independent of both the Congress and the executive branch. It's 225 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 5: worked well for nearly two hundred and fifty years, and 226 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 5: there's no basis that makes any sense for departing from 227 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 5: that tradition and those precedents. Now. I think the Republican 228 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 5: members who are participating in this kind of a campaign 229 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 5: are just reacting to pressure from the administration and worries 230 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 5: about reelection and contributions and the like. But that's not 231 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 5: a good excuse because they know full well that disagreement 232 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 5: with a ruling by a judge is not a proper 233 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 5: ground for impeachment or removal from office. It's not even 234 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 5: close to a proper ground, because the Constitution itself spells 235 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 5: out explicitly what the proper grounds are, and as you know, 236 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 5: the phrase is treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors, 237 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 5: and clearly a judicial ruling applying the law as best 238 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 5: the judge can is none of those things, and therefore 239 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 5: not even close to being a candidate for impeachment, much 240 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 5: less trial in the US Senate. So I think it's 241 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 5: basically an exercise and intimidation, a publicity stunt, and not 242 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 5: a serious effort, and it's not responsible. And worse than that, 243 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 5: it's harmful to the country because it shakes the confidence 244 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 5: of all American citizens in the independence and rectitude of 245 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 5: the courts. And everybody in the end depends on the 246 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 5: courts to protect their rights. So everybody has a stake 247 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 5: in this, not just rich people or big corporations. Every 248 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 5: individual citizen is threatened if the court's rule under political 249 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 5: coercion rather than the steady precedents of statutes and higher 250 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 5: court rulings. So this is really a very big deal, 251 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 5: a very big turning point for the country. And for 252 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 5: two centuries and more we haven't had this. We've only 253 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 5: had a total of thirteen judges impeached and about seven 254 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 5: were convicted at Senate trial, and in every case it 255 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 5: was for plainly serious crimes like outright money bribery. Sorry 256 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 5: to say that a judge was guilty of such conduct, 257 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 5: but a few have been over the two hundred years. 258 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 5: But this is totally different. This has nothing to do 259 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 5: with high crimes. This is high politics. 260 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 3: So judges are human. Do you think that any of them, 261 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 3: perhaps concerned for their safety the safety of their families, 262 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: are being intimidated in some way. 263 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,719 Speaker 5: Well, there's certainly efforts to try to intimidate them and 264 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 5: coerce them and affect their rulings. And you're quite correct 265 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 5: to put not only on the judges but on their families. 266 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 5: Judges have had various forms of harassment, over one hundred 267 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 5: cases of unordered pizzas being delivered, often late at night. 268 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 5: In many cases, the pizza deliveries have cited the name 269 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 5: of the murdered son of a judge in New Jersey, 270 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 5: Esther Sallas. Her son answered the door. She was obviously 271 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 5: the target of the assassin, but the son happen to 272 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 5: answer the door and was shot and killed. Judge Sallas's 273 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 5: husband was critically wounded. Fortunately the judge herself was not. 274 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 5: But the whole thing was a horror show. And so 275 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 5: when today's judges get pizzas in the name of Daniel Anderley, 276 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 5: it's a message they know Daniel Anderley was the murdered 277 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 5: son of a fellow judge, And judges tell us that 278 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 5: they knew when they took the job and of course 279 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 5: all judges are volunteers. No one has to be a judge. 280 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 5: It's a high honor. And you know you're going to 281 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 5: be unpopular with a lot of peace. That's in the 282 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 5: nature of the job. You know you'll be criticized in 283 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 5: the media. You know that there will be parties who 284 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 5: will be very unhappy with your rulings. Sometimes both parties 285 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 5: are unhappy, always one party, the losing party, is extremely unhappy, 286 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 5: and often there is criticism from many other people. Judges 287 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 5: all know that they accept that what they can't accept 288 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 5: is serious threats. So, for example, when the swat team 289 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 5: shows up at a judge's house at midnight based on 290 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 5: a malicious false report of a shooting in progress, it 291 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 5: scares the devil out of the whole family and upsets 292 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 5: the judge. So it's not just pizza deliveries, it's also 293 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 5: swat teams. It's also vicious death threats, phone calls, text messages, 294 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 5: and even that children of some judges have been harassed 295 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 5: on their way to school by fanatical individuals who've been 296 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 5: inflamed by extreme rhetoric on social media, including some of 297 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 5: it coming from high government officials and members of the Congress, 298 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 5: which is just despicable and very unfortunate. We've never had 299 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 5: that before in this country and we shouldn't tolerate it. 300 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: Now, speaking of members of Congress, Senator Ted Cruz, who 301 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 3: leads the sub committee, has called for the impeachment of 302 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 3: Judge James Boseberg, a judge whom the Attorney General has 303 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: called out by name. Why do you think Boseburg has 304 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 3: been repeatedly targeted. 305 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 5: Well, he's one of a number of judges who's ruled 306 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 5: in cases involving challenges to the lawfulness of administration actions, 307 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 5: and like some of the other judges, not in every case, 308 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 5: but in some cases they've ruled that the law was 309 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 5: violated by the administration. And in Judge Boseburg's case, Chief 310 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 5: Judge Boseburg, I should say it was more than one 311 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 5: case that upset the administration. Now, as to Senator Cruz, 312 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 5: Senator Cruz is an exceptionally smart individual, a very well 313 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 5: qualified lawyer of great experience. He's an absolutely superb advocate 314 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 5: and was the leading solicitor for the state of Texas 315 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 5: before he became a senator. He was a White House 316 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 5: lawyer before that, and you know the rest of his biography. 317 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 5: He knows better. He knows these are not impeachable offenses. 318 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 5: He knows it clearly, So I can only guess that 319 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 5: he's acting for other motives not to apply the law 320 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 5: of impeachment. Again, whether it's the hearings threatened by Chairman 321 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 5: Cruise of the Judiciary Subcommittee on the Courts, or whether 322 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 5: it's somebody in the White House or the Justice Department, 323 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 5: these threatening verbal attacks cause real danger to judges that 324 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 5: the Marshal Service has bedded and declared that there are 325 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 5: hundreds of serious threats, just crank threats. We're used to 326 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 5: crank threats, that's not so serious, but serious threats and dangers. 327 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 5: As you know, Justice Kavanaugh had a would be assassin 328 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 5: armed on his block prowling around looking for Justice Kavanaugh 329 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 5: and that individuals recently convicted and sentenced. So the dangers 330 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 5: are really quite real. 331 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: Now. 332 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 5: You asked a very good question earlier. Are the judges 333 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 5: actually being intimidated in the sense that they're changing their 334 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 5: ruling from what they would normally rule. I don't know 335 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 5: of any instance of that so far, but the pressure 336 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 5: campaign has been going on. It started years ago. This 337 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 5: is not only under the present administration. But it has 338 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 5: ramped up dramatically in the last ten months. And ultimately, judges, 339 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 5: however courageous and committed they are, and I think they 340 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 5: are both to a man to a woman, who were 341 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 5: not perfect. But we are devoted to the country. That's 342 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 5: why instead of making a lot of money a big 343 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 5: fancy law firm or corporation, we became judges at far 344 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 5: far lower salaries. It's an honor to serve the people. 345 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 5: I did it for twenty two years. I loved every 346 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 5: day of it, and all the judges talk about it 347 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 5: that way. But ultimately, judges too are human, and if 348 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 5: they feel like their family members are terrified and their 349 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 5: children are being harassed, and there are death threats coming 350 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 5: in that the Marshall Service evaluates as serious, at some 351 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,959 Speaker 5: point humans are going to have a stress point of failure, 352 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 5: just like a wing on an airplane. You know, enough 353 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 5: stress and you can break anything, particularly when it's elongated 354 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 5: over time. And that's what we're seeing here. So, yeah, 355 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 5: they're holding up fine now, but can we be assured 356 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 5: they'll continue to hold up fine if this pressure campaign, 357 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 5: which keeps escalating, goes on and on and on, and 358 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 5: the Article three coalition of which I'm a part. As 359 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 5: you know, it's an arm of Keep our Republic of 360 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 5: pre Existing Check charitable Civics education organization that's been in 361 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 5: operation for about five years. The coalition is new just 362 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 5: this year. It has fifty two retired judges, both trial 363 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 5: and impellate as members, and incidentally, about half of them 364 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 5: were appointed by Republican administrations and the other half by 365 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 5: Democratic administration, so it's totally balanced, and it's really non 366 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 5: political because it's a group of people devoted to the 367 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 5: rule of law, not the rule of any one man 368 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 5: or woman. So this is a very dramatic moment for 369 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 5: the country to come to grips with, and I'm very 370 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 5: hopeful that the unbroken tradition and precedent of two hundred 371 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 5: and fifty years will will carry forward and be honored 372 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 5: by everybody in power now and hopefully the really vicious rhetoric, 373 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 5: really inflammatory rhetoric, people being called leftist lunatics and people 374 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 5: who hate America and rogue judges or activist judges. If 375 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 5: a judge is ruling on the basis of personal politics, 376 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 5: that would be fair to say that's an activist judge. 377 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 5: You could also say it's a completely improper judge, betraying 378 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 5: their oath. But if a judge rules against an administration 379 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 5: because of a statute, it's the job of the judge 380 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 5: to interpret the statute and apply it. And if the 381 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 5: judge finds that the administration's action is contrary to law, 382 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 5: the judge is obligated to so rule and to impose remedies, 383 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 5: including injunctions. That's not being activists, that's not being rogue. 384 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 5: It's actually just a judge doing the normal thing that 385 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 5: judges do every single day. That's actually their job. So 386 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 5: instead of being castigated, they should be respected. You don't 387 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 5: have to agree with them, you don't have to like them, 388 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 5: you don't have to like their ruling. You can criticize them, 389 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 5: including in strong terms in public, and that's a constitutional 390 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 5: right of everybody. But to foment violence against is just 391 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 5: beyond any reasonable line. 392 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for joining me today, judge. That's retired 393 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 3: Judge Paul Michelle of the DC Federal Circuit Court of Appeals. 394 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 3: Coming up next. Why the Trump administration is firing so 395 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 3: many immigration judges? This is bloomberg. The Trump administration has 396 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 3: fired dozens of immigration judges since January. Their employees of 397 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 3: the Justice Department and not housed within an independent court system. 398 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: The administration has targeted judges during or at the end 399 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 3: of their two year probationary periods, as well as some 400 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 3: who had sat on the bench for years. The administration 401 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 3: is also installing military lawyers and immigration courts after eliminating 402 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: certain requirements for temporary immigration judges. Former immigration judges have 403 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 3: said the firings are aggravating existing case backs that have 404 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 3: clogged the immigration court system and created years long wait 405 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: times for foreign citizens to get decisions in their cases. 406 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 3: Some of those let go, like other terminated employees across 407 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 3: the federal government, learned of their dismissals in brief notices 408 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 3: stating the Attorney General had determined under Article two authority 409 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 3: that their continued employment wasn't in the nation's interest. Joining 410 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 3: me is immigration expert Leon Fresco, a partner at Holland 411 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: and Knight. He was the head of the Office of 412 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 3: Civil Immigration Litigation in the Obama administration. Leon, why are 413 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 3: they firing immigration judges? Doesn't that slow down the process? 414 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 4: So this is one of the very challenging issues that 415 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 4: is involved with regard to their building up of the 416 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 4: infrastructure to try to create this larger enforcement or deportation framework. 417 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 4: Is is they think that they can't build that structure 418 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 4: out if there are too many sympathetic immigration judges in 419 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 4: the structure, because then too many immigration judges will grant 420 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 4: asylum or grant some other form of relief like cancelation 421 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 4: of removal, or they'll allow people to refer their claims 422 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 4: to USCIS because they'll have a qualifying family member who 423 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 4: can save them from deportation. And they don't want any 424 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 4: of that discretion that immigration judges have to save people 425 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 4: in particular cases from deportation to be exercised in favor 426 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 4: of the foreign national. And so you'll actually see this 427 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 4: if you go on Twitter. Is that the way the 428 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 4: administration currently describes what used to be known as an 429 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: immigration judge, they call them a deportation judge. And they say, 430 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 4: sign up to become a deportation judge. Apply to become 431 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: a deportation judge. And so that is quite a new 432 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 4: because you wouldn't have you know, suppose you see this 433 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 4: every now and then in states and localities where people 434 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 4: run for elected judge positions and they can't run and say, hey, 435 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 4: I'm going to be a hanging judge, vote for me. 436 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 4: You can't say that that's the kind of thing that 437 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 4: will get you disqualified in every case moving forward. If 438 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 4: you said you were running as a hanging judge. But 439 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 4: here they're saying, sign up to be a deportation judge. 440 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 4: And I don't know, sort of strategically, if that is 441 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 4: going to be helpful if there's a future challenge to 442 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 4: the manner in which people who applied to become deportation 443 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 4: judges ended up making rulings in cases. So I just 444 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 4: find that very fascinating. 445 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 3: Is that why they're installing military lawyers at immigration courts? 446 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 4: So they're trying to figure out ways to strain people 447 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 4: who don't necessarily have a lot of immigration experience and 448 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 4: on the background of immigration law, so that they can 449 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 4: sort of say, here is a way to look at 450 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 4: the law as opposed to people who had experienced immigration 451 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 4: law and have come to it from the backbone of 452 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 4: their experiences. They're trying to find people with less experience 453 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 4: so they can train them and give sort of a 454 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 4: patterned this is how you decide everything, and because they 455 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 4: haven't seen it, they will say, okay, so this is 456 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 4: the pattern. The issue is quite Interestingly, I've worked with 457 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 4: a lot of members of the military who have come 458 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 4: from the Judge Advocate General's office and other places, who 459 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 4: go either to the Department of Justice or the immigration court, 460 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 4: and it turns out a lot of them end up 461 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 4: being just as sympathetic as any as anyone else, because 462 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 4: people are human beings that they're super complicated and you 463 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 4: can't just stereotype anybody or put them into any sort 464 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 4: of bucket, and so all of these efforts, yes, you 465 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 4: might be able to weigh it in oneicular way or another, 466 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: but all of these efforts surprisingly will still yield sympathetic 467 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 4: decisions in some cases because people are still human beings, 468 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 4: and this is all an enterprise about humanity. At the 469 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 4: end of the day. It's not about numbers, it's not 470 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 4: about money, it's not about anything else. There's human beings 471 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 4: in a court standing in front of you telling you 472 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 4: their story. And it's just very hard, no matter who 473 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 4: you are. Every day, if you're just going to just 474 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 4: say the port, the port to port, the port, that 475 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 4: just weighs on you if you know in your mind 476 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 4: you're doing it in a way that's not fair to 477 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 4: the law or consistent to the facts, and so I 478 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 4: just think a lot of these efforts I understand where 479 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 4: if you're doing it from the standpoint of the administration, 480 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 4: you want to at least get people who aren't inclined 481 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 4: to say yes every single time, because you're trying to 482 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 4: create a more rigorous enforcement regime. So you don't want 483 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 4: to have people who start with yes and begrudgingly go 484 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 4: to know. You might want people who start with no 485 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 4: and begrudgingly get the yes, But that's the best that 486 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 4: anybody's going to be able to do in a situation 487 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 4: like this. There's not going to be one hundred judges 488 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 4: who are hired that all deport every single person in 489 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 4: front of them, because that's just not the way these 490 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 4: things tend to work. 491 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 3: I want to ask you about denaturalization. So the Trump 492 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 3: administration has made threats to revoke the citizenship of political 493 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 3: foes who are naturalized citizens, and before that very friendly 494 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 3: meeting in the Oval Office, there were threats to denaturalize 495 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 3: and deport New York City may elect Zoran Mandami. Mandami 496 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 3: is one of nearly twenty five million naturalized citizens currently 497 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 3: living in the country. Is the Trump administration actively trying 498 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 3: to denaturalize citizens. 499 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 4: Well, they have people in the Justice Department, because the 500 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 4: way the naturalization works is it's a very complicated thing. 501 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 4: It's not something that is simple at all. You have 502 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 4: to build a case. So just like the FBI has 503 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 4: to build a criminal case, the Department of Homeland Security 504 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 4: has to build a case as to why there was 505 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 4: a misrepresentation made either in the green card process or 506 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 4: the citizenship process. That then is material enough that if 507 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 4: you go and you were to present you have to 508 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 4: present a complaint in the federal court. That would work 509 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 4: very similarly to an indictment in the sense that you've 510 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 4: got to file it, you've got to have down then 511 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 4: a trial, you've got to have that whole process, and 512 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 4: you have to basically say, had we known this fact, 513 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 4: we would have refused the case. That's basically what you 514 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 4: have to show in that and so that's very intensive. 515 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 4: You're talking about on any particular denaturalization case, hundreds of 516 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 4: hours of total government work in terms of manpower in 517 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 4: order to get that done. And so they do want 518 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 4: to do that, but when we're talking about tens of 519 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 4: thousands of people, they don't have the infrastructure in place 520 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 4: to do that. So what they have to do is 521 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 4: try to find cases that are sort of powerful cases 522 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 4: where bold messages are sent about people who made misrepresentations 523 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 4: in the process, because then that will yield the response 524 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 4: perhaps that they might want of people then taking matters 525 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 4: in their own hands and leaving because they're worried that 526 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 4: they will get denaturalized. But in terms of having tens 527 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 4: of thousands of denaturalizations, the problem is with that. You 528 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 4: need lawyers from the Department of Justice who do those cases. 529 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 4: You need obviously the federal courts to schedule those cases, 530 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 4: you need the Department of Homeland Security to have people 531 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 4: to investigate those cases, and so that infrastructure is there 532 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 4: at most for twenty five hundred to five thousand cases 533 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 4: a year, which would be, by the way, an exponential 534 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 4: the higher record than has ever been done before. Usually 535 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 4: we're talking about several hundred cases a year. So if 536 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 4: you did five thousand the naturalization cases, that would be 537 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 4: leaps and bounds above the highest that's ever been done. 538 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 4: But the point being that's what you would maybe try 539 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 4: to accomplish if you were in the Trump administration. 540 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 3: Leon I read that there were a lot of denaturalizations 541 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 3: during the Obama administration, but you never heard about it. 542 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 4: Well, so here's what happened, because I was literally there. 543 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 4: I was I know, I was in charge of the department. 544 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 4: Is there was something called Operation Janice, which was a 545 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 4: you know, Janus being the person with two phases. There 546 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 4: was a discovery of a large number of people who 547 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 4: had been deported from the United States at some point 548 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 4: in their life. We're talking about when there was no 549 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 4: serious technology in the eighties, in the seventies, you know, 550 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 4: that kind of thing. And so what do they do 551 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 4: if you're deported, You can't just come back into the 552 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 4: United States. So they make up a new person that 553 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 4: they are. And so they say, you know, yes, I 554 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 4: may have been John Smith when I was deported, but 555 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 4: now I'm Jerry Jones. And so you know, they don't 556 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 4: tell you that they were John Smith. They just return 557 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 4: as Jerry Jones in that situation. So there was about 558 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 4: three hundred of those cases that were done during the 559 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 4: Obama administration, which was considered it a lot, but still 560 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 4: is it the kind of thing I'm talking about, which 561 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 4: is that if they did five thousand, let's say, it 562 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 4: would be a massive improvement over three hundred. 563 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 3: Very interesting because I don't think many people know much 564 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 3: about denaturalization. Thanks so much, Leon. That's Leon Fresco, a 565 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 3: partner at hollanden Knight. In other legal news today, in 566 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 3: a big win for Republicans, the conservative justices on the 567 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 3: Supreme Court have cleared Texas to use a new Republican 568 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 3: drawn congressional map for next year's election, bolstering GOP hopes 569 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 3: of picking up as many as five new house seats 570 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 3: in the state. Here's Bloomberg New Supreme Court reporter Greg 571 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 3: Store with more on that decision. 572 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 6: So, the Supreme Court said several things. Kind of the 573 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 6: first half of it is we think the lower court 574 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 6: got it wrong, and the second half of it is 575 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 6: this decision came too close to the election to take effect. 576 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 6: With the first half of it, the court said that 577 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 6: the district court did not honor what it called the 578 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 6: presumption of legislative good faith. In other words, the lower 579 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 6: court was too quick to assume that the or to 580 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 6: decide that the state was doing something it shouldn't do 581 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 6: by using race too much. And then the second thing 582 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court said is that normally, in these racial 583 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 6: gerrymandering cases, courts require somebody who's challenging a map to 584 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 6: produce an alternative map that would have accomplished the state's 585 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 6: goals in this case, drawing more Republican friendly seat without 586 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 6: using race so much so, the lower court did not 587 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,959 Speaker 6: require that in this case, and the Supreme Court said 588 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 6: that was a problem. So those were preliminary decisions by 589 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court, but they strongly suggest that they think 590 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 6: the lower court got it wrong. And then the second 591 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 6: half of it is that the Supreme Court in the 592 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 6: past has said that federal courts need to be really 593 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 6: careful about issuing rulings that change the election rules for 594 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 6: states on the eve of an election. And because the 595 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 6: candidate filing deadline is next week in Texas, we for 596 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 6: the sake of Texas, are pretty much on the eve 597 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 6: of the election. 598 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 3: That's Bloomberg Supreme Court Reporter Greg Store and that's it 599 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 3: for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you 600 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 3: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg 601 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 3: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 602 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 3: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, 603 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 3: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 604 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 3: weeknight at ten pm. Wall Street time, I'm June Grosso 605 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 3: and you're listening to Bloomberg 606 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 2: M