1 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Locks podcast. 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy remember in 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: like the two thousands or like the financial crisis and 4 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: everyone you can barely remember last year but go on, 5 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: and everyone said, oh, it's such a tragedy. People could 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: have been curing cancer, but then they were spending their 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: time coming up with like more and more complex derivatives. 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: And then I feel like for the tens that more too. 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: All the smart people could have been curring cancer, but 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: they spent their time getting more ads onto like tiny 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: phone screens and stuff like that. This is the whole 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: like software sucking up the entire economy idea. But yes, 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: I do remember that criticism. There was a lot of 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: thought that went into how to best advertise on the Internet, 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: and in fact, I think we had an episode at 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: one point about how the Internet was actually powered purely 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: by that's right, No, I mean it more or less 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: seems to be. I mean, I guess people do pay 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: for something. But it also feels like that era both 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: sort of from a macro standpoint and maybe a micro 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: standpoint is coming to a close again again another decade 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: pivot because we have seen a lot of these Internet 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: mega companies like meaningfully start to slow growth. The business 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: models aren't firing on all cylinders as they want to are. 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: And then just sort of like tech in general from 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: macro reasons, uh, seems to be it had better days, right. 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: Interest rates are going up and so a lot of 28 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: the valuations of big tech companies are coming down. But 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: also to the business model point, I think this is 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: interesting because initially, you know, we talked about very smart 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: people going to tech firms and venture capital and spending 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: a lot of mental energy. They're trying to figure out 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: the business model. But to some extent, it feels like 34 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: the easy gains are kind of behind us, right. It 35 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: was you create a product, you get everyone on your 36 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: particular platform or using your product or whatever, and then 37 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: you make a bunch of money. And now it feels 38 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: like things are changing absolutely. I mean, look at a 39 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: company like um Facebook for example, is just this. You know, 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: they're really having to work for it, like their their 41 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: their model is stressed right now, and there's the rise 42 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: of TikTok and so forth. Every one of these companies, 43 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: it feels like, to some extent, after creating a decade 44 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: of like the best money vacuuming up machines that were 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: ever created are not like they kind of have to 46 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: really work for it now, yeah, and come up with, 47 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: let's say, more creative strategies. And one of the things 48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: we've seen recently is something from Apple right. And so 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: one of the stories is that Apple has this incredible 50 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: position in the ecosystem because so many people own an 51 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: iPhone and they pull out the first thing they interact 52 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: with is the iPhone to get to the internet. And 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: they have a lot of power over these other companies 54 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: in terms of you know what shows up on that 55 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: iPhone and how right, and and they're having to be 56 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: more creative and making money off of those products. Right. 57 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: The iPhone is getting more technologically advanced. You don't have 58 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: to necessarily buy one every year. People are holding onto 59 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: them for longer. So how do you rest more money 60 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: out of that particular customer base. Such a tragedy. Companies 61 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: are having trouble resting more money out of their customer base. 62 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: What a terrible situation. Anyway, that further Ado, I want 63 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: to talk more about online advertising this world, the challenges 64 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: all these companies are facing. We're going to be speaking 65 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: with our colleague Mark Bergen. He's a reporter here at 66 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg and he is the author of a recently published book, 67 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: Like Comment Subscribe Inside YouTube's chaotic rise to world domination. 68 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: So Mark, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots, 69 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: and congratulations on the book. Thanks so much, Thanks for 70 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: having me so First of all, why a book about YouTube? Now? 71 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: Why don't wait? Why did you do this project? Yeah? 72 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: YouTube is this kind of a sleeping giant and social 73 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: media it's someone described it as like this iceberg that 74 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: no one ever really talks about as much for a 75 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: variety of reasons. I see YouTube as both the past 76 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: and now future of social media. And it was the 77 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:18,119 Speaker 1: first company to pay online broadcasters and invented the creator economy. 78 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: And now we're seeing with TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, Twitch, you name, 79 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: it are all moving in this direction. Social media is 80 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: no longer your friends and family and your acquaintances. It 81 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: is influencers, It is celebrity. It is a game built 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: around in commerce. Uh. And this is a world that 83 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: that YouTube very much creative. Should we be telling Odd 84 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: Lots listeners to like, come in and subscribe other podcasts 85 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: that an effective called action. All right, everyone like comment 86 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: and subscribe on all thoughts wherever you find it. Okay, 87 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,799 Speaker 1: but you well, but we were talking in the intro 88 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: about this idea that the sort of like easy gains 89 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: are over for social media, and it is true. We've 90 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: seen all these new issues also come up, like anti 91 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: trust when it comes to Facebook and Google, um, content 92 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: regulation when it comes to YouTube. Who should be the 93 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: arbiters of what's true and what isn't? Are the easy 94 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 1: days over for social media? I think? I mean YouTube's 95 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: business has grown tremendously, uh and and part of it 96 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: was because they really didn't kind of lock into their 97 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: commercial success until so we only the only data we 98 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: have available is beginning in seventeen there as business but 99 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: I was around eight billion last year. It was close 100 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: to uh, pretty phenomenal growth. They just took off their 101 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: the pandemic um when the viewership numbers and we're all 102 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: stuck at home watching there were studios, how them studios 103 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: were shut down, like YouTube became the default media aesthetic 104 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: and uh, you know a lot of kids, a lot 105 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: of you know, yoga videos, just the hours of just exploded. Um. 106 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: But that the business has been crippled I think you 107 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: could make the argument more by Apple's changes than by 108 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: any any regular from this far. Alright, let's jump right 109 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: into it. So Apple, they say, oh, we're the defenders 110 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: of privacy, and now I always get these alerts on 111 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: my phone. It's like, do you still want to be 112 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: broadcasting information to that app? It looks like maybe you 113 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: haven't rethought this or something, which I imagine is not 114 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: great for those apps when I click now. Yeah. I 115 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: mean there were people in in Google and Facebook less 116 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: so at Google, but they will gripe privately. Facebook started 117 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: to do it publicly, like Apple is now building out 118 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: a search advertising business. They're starting to hire more people 119 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: like they have. This is a really savvy move. They 120 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: marketed themselves as the privacy first company. They have restricted 121 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: online cookies on iPhones and like kneecapped a lot of 122 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: potential digital rivals. I think the one way to look 123 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: at it is, you know this is they are making 124 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: the They are driving this, this forced movement towards less 125 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: behavioral and targeted advertising, this sort of foundation for the 126 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: Internet economy of the last two decades. The cynical view 127 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: is that they have found a pretty effective way to 128 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: build out a competing business to Google without the world 129 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: really knowing it. Well, Okay, so first of all, if 130 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: you talk to Apple about this, they will say it's 131 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: about privacy concerns. If you talk to their competitors like 132 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: YouTube or Facebook, they will probably say, this is a 133 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: revenue grap How are you thinking about it? And what 134 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: are the sort of like clues or evidence on either side. Yeah. 135 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: I think Google is a really interesting test case. It 136 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: has this um friend of me relationship with Apple. They 137 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: are competitors, certainly in obviously in smartphone markets, Google's kind 138 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: of got after them a lot around an iPhone, but 139 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: in their prime Google's primary business of search advertising, like 140 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: Apples an extraordinarily convenient partner because for a long time 141 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: Apple Google has been the default search engine for Apple, 142 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: and now that it's a subject of an Apartment of 143 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: Justice antitrust case. Uh. I think this is the chief 144 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: reason why Facebook meta has been graping very publicly about 145 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: what Apple has been doing, and you haven't heard a 146 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: peep from Google. Uh. And in part because their search 147 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: business is less affected like search business, search ads in 148 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: general are less reliant on the kind of third party cookies. YouTube, however, 149 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: is heavily reliant on the fact that they want to, like, 150 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: they can serve much better and higher priced ads if 151 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: they know all the videos that you've watched, all the 152 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: other websites you visited, you know, all the sort of 153 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: granularity that this, this entire complex machinery of online advertising 154 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: is built upon. So can we actually take a step 155 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: back and can you maybe explain exactly how the market 156 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: operated before Apple's big switch, because this is not something 157 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: that I am entirely familiar with, other than as Joe mentioned, 158 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, suddenly you get all these notices on your 159 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: phone saying do you want to opt into data track? Yeah, 160 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: I mean it it is. I think we're markedly similar 161 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: to sort of financial markets in it's like complexity and opacity. 162 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: Um Like there are effectively like two sided markets right 163 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: there by side and the sell side where you have 164 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, publishers that are out there, like have a 165 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: lot of online real estate and that's everything from Bloomberg 166 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: dot com in the New York Times to like very 167 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: popular mobile apps that that and snapchat Twitter right like 168 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: Twitter has real estate and and and then there are 169 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of marketers that want to get in front 170 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: of consumers. Google has the machinery on both sides, like 171 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: they own both sides of the market, UM and Google 172 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: has is the world's biggest digital advertising company. They have 173 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: been for for decades now. The sort of primary way 174 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: that public online publishers have monetized with Google AdSense. UH 175 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: that basically ad Sense is the same exact model on YouTube, 176 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: just taken over to video. So it is the world's 177 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,479 Speaker 1: biggest online video advertising service by far UH and effectively 178 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: is a very easy and increasingly automated system where if 179 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm a marketer, I'm PNG PNGG spends you know, millions 180 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: of dollars and billions of dollars of marketing. I'm gonna 181 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: go to Google and I'm gonna kind of give them 182 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: a chunk of money effectively goes through a bunch of 183 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: ad agencies, and then Google kind of allocate that based 184 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: on you know, we're going to get this into search 185 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: in front of people whenever they type a keyword, We're 186 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: gonna put this on display to put on the Bloomberg 187 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: dot coms of the world, and we're gonna allocate this 188 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: to to video, knowing that we can actually reach in 189 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: this very hyper targeted way the consumers we want to 190 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: reach other speculators who might be the equivalent of a 191 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: hedge fund or trading desk cool by ad inventory just 192 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: on the assumption that they can flip it and sell 193 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: it for more than what that person was selling. I 194 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: even heard of that one. There's certainly like all sorts 195 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: of middlemen in the industry, and you know there are 196 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: time in the era. I'm sure that still happens. But 197 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: I used to go to all these advertising conferences and 198 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of ad tech companies that you know, 199 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: they've asked him what they do, and it's just you 200 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: don't really understand where they sit in the stack. Right, 201 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: There's just like all sorts of complexities and and they're 202 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: programmatic advertising companies that just do one thing on mobile. 203 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: And there was Bluetooth advertising was a big hot where 204 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: you could actually like serve an add to a consumer 205 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: right when they're in front of the coal gate at 206 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: the aisle. Like this was, I mean, this was we're 207 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: moving towards this world. And certainly before Apple stepped in 208 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: of of incredible like they're geo fencing be able to 209 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: get your cell your data and know your exact location 210 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: and push alerts and um, I mean this is why 211 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: it's under so much privacy and antitrust scrutiny is because 212 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: it became quickly invasive and incredibly unregulated. So can you 213 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: talk to us maybe about like how important data targeting 214 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: or targeting of an audience actually is, because I think 215 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: we hear these things like oh, it's it makes it 216 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: harder for advertisers if they're not able to track your data. 217 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: Why is so important? And like, can you maybe give 218 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,599 Speaker 1: us some numbers around how valuable a targeted ad is 219 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: versus an untargeted one. I don't even know if untargeted 220 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,359 Speaker 1: ads exist on the Internet. Yeah, well, and just on 221 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: to sort of add on to Tracy's question, like, let's 222 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: say I go to golf dot com. Yeah, okay, the 223 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: ads that I get, like, how much is it he's 224 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: on golf but dot com he probably wants to be 225 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: about golf as opposed to ads that I get that 226 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: maybe you know the last ten sites I went to 227 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: is like pets dot com or and so my like, 228 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: how valuable is it for golf dot com to be 229 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: able to know that? I also like pett I mean, 230 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: there there's all sorts of open and unsolved questions about 231 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: the value and x like precision of online advertising. The 232 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: classic example is like you go and you buy a 233 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: pair of sneakers, and then all you see are as 234 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: for the same exact sneakers, Like it's following you around 235 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: the internet, right, So I just bought these? Why do 236 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: you like the world's biggest tech companies that supposedly know 237 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: a lot about you, Like, can't solve that one pair 238 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: of sneakers? I do, but I definitely don't need a second, 239 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: uh stove, Yeah, I mean I think that to a 240 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: certain extent. The like the you know, YouTube is a 241 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: really interesting example in part like they have they built 242 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: this very a fantastic targeting model where they can like 243 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: show an add to a viewer. You mentioned, like if 244 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: you watch about the golf channels, right, like you're if 245 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: you're an advertiser, you're going to probably want to get 246 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: in front of that you know, if you're if you're 247 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: selling golf gear clubs, you want to get in front 248 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: of that person that's watching all the YouTube videos. They 249 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: have this feature, I'm sure, the skippable ad format, which 250 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: is a major part of their success. It was because 251 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, if the consumers actually watching this, because they 252 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: didn't click the skip button that's worth a lot more money. 253 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: And if Nike runs an ad that didn't skip, Adidas 254 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: is going to want to pay more in in this 255 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: automated bidding system. And this is like Google Search kind 256 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: of works really well with scarcity to where it's like 257 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: they can drive up the cost per per mill or 258 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: cost per click um pretty high in these scarce markets. Well, 259 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: let's go back then to the Apple situation directly prior 260 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: to this policy change. What was an iPhone user giving 261 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: to various apps when they use them and when did 262 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 1: the policy change and what are they getting now from 263 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: those users? Yeah, I mean some of it is is 264 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: really hard to trace. But you know, in if I 265 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: was an iPhone user and I'm using maybe like a 266 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: Chrome or even safari um, You're getting a lot of 267 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: background data and like there's a lot of ad companies 268 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: you've probably never heard of, or like serving a cookie 269 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: on you on your um uh, your mobile browsing some 270 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: of it. There are there are companies that have like 271 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: invented ways to do um deep linking between when you 272 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: bounce from an app to the web. Right, this is 273 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: this has always been Google's fear of Apple in some ways. 274 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: Is that Apple is only if your only experience on 275 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: an iPhone is just moving from app to app, right, 276 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: Like that is you're you're no longer going through the 277 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: turnstile of the Internet, which is Google. Um, so certainly 278 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: amount of data about the websites you visited, how long 279 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: you link, like, what you click on all those sort 280 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: of signals. Is my understanding is like that with now 281 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: that they've kind of fully eliminated third party cookies, and 282 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: Google is has said they're doing the same for Chrome, 283 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: which is they own the crumb browser. Um it is 284 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: actually this Google has pushed that timeline back several years 285 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: I think now as they say, um and so the 286 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: like basically like these third party sites that do the tracking, uh, 287 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: will not you effectively will not be able to know um, 288 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: your Internet history of like what you know if you 289 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: visit golf dot com and then you got to ESPN. 290 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: ESPN doesn't know that you lived at the golf dot com. Right. 291 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: ESPN might just sees you as a sports fan. They 292 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: don't see you as like a golf fanatic. What scope 293 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: do companies have to sort of bypass Apples restrictions on this, 294 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: Like is there a lot of leeway to still somehow 295 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: track people even if they've opted out. This is I'm 296 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: not an expert. Google and face Book have both sort 297 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: of invented these machine learning models that can like walk 298 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: in backwards right kind of exactly. They both have different 299 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: like jargon e names for the for the services, but 300 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: effectively that's it, like, Oh, we're gonna, uh, we're gonna 301 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: put you in a group of people. I'm gonna keep 302 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: going back to this golf example. We're gonna put you 303 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: in a group of We don't know that that you, 304 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: Joe are are actually visiting this, but we know that 305 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: there's enough like golf fans doing this activity or using 306 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: this app, and so we can approximate. I mean, the 307 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: the real issue here is that there's Google and Facebook. 308 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: You know, I have been in a duopoli in this 309 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: world for a very long time. That is the third. 310 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: The actual challenger now is Amazon, right, Like certainly not 311 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: a small company like Amazon's as business has grown tremendously 312 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: in the past few years. Uh, and they're less threatened 313 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: by this because they also it's all in house. Right, 314 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: Amazon's business is based on like the activity on on 315 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: Amazon properties. Um, so that's one way that that that 316 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: companies have got around it. The big push also that 317 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: all the platforms, you see how much of ad tech 318 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: companies have pivoted towards commerce, e commerce, especially during the pandemic. 319 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: For what it's worth and for listeners. I don't even 320 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: golf and I don't have a pet, so I don't 321 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: know why I use those examples. I just needed to 322 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: get that out of there. The ad is that I 323 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: have been getting on Instagram lately have been absolute garbage. 324 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: The worst target in Is that true? Okay? Because the 325 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: ads that I've been getting on Instagram because I I 326 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: experimented with this, because I got really interested. I was like, 327 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: where are they getting this info from? It seems to 328 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: be coming in through Google. It's like if you do 329 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: a Google search, it shows up on Instagram. Yeah, there's 330 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: the one that they always have the debunk, which is 331 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: like if you're talking micro right. I tried that too. Yeah, 332 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: my husband and I did baby carriages or not having 333 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: a baby, but just as an experiment to see like 334 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: what would show up? Nothing if you talk about them 335 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: in front of Alexa, But if you Google search for it, 336 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: they show up on Instagram. I mean Google, weird. Google 337 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: for a long time we kept trying to keep They 338 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: had like a state in church and state separation from 339 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: like search and rest of display. Internet started changing, uh 340 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: and and um. In part that was just about a 341 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: financial concert, like they wanted to give more data that 342 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: they add tech industry. It was just a bigger growth. 343 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: But for a long time at least they said, and 344 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,719 Speaker 1: and and people I've talked to the early days like 345 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: have this almost religious belief that like you're searching, I mean, 346 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: you know, Google has our most intimate data, right, like 347 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: the things we're searching for, we tell Google things that 348 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: we wouldn't tell our spouses is going to write like 349 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: uh and so like that search data is incredibly valuable 350 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: to a marketer if they're you know, trying and selling 351 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: pharmaceuticals or lawyers, right, Like those kind of those are 352 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: the industries that typically have incredibly high search ads because 353 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: there are people that are really in demand for for 354 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: a particular thing. Instagram is I mean Facebook, because you know, 355 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: it's so funny. People talk about how crappy the add 356 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: qualities are. And yet like there as business certainly has 357 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: been suffering because of Apples changes, but it's still that right, 358 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: But like the one of the two kings of the industry. Well, 359 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: then talk about what we've seen specifically. So when you 360 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: say okay there, because this is the core of the 361 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: whole thing when we talk about their businesses has started 362 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: to suffer because of the policy changes that Apple has made. 363 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: What are we seeing concretely in terms of how it's 364 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: spilling over? Yeah, I mean, like the dollars. I think 365 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: some of this was, you know the fact that they're 366 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: like macroeconomic factors, and for marketing, there's the war in 367 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: Ukraine and there's just the pandemic in general. But but 368 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: in part you know, if you're an advertiser, in your 369 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: choices are between say like television or Billboard ad and 370 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: and Facebook. The argument for online has always been like 371 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: you know that there's a joke about TV like I 372 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: don't you put your ad up there? And you have 373 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: no idea who's watching necessarily? And um, that's just sort 374 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: of like brand advertising, right and and um in the 375 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: industry there's brand and there's direct response. In the direct 376 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: response as are the one where you want people to 377 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: make it an immediate action, like you want them to 378 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: install an app, buy a thing. Um. This so this 379 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: is you know, Apple's changes have made it much more 380 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: difficult to do that, and so there's they're getting you know, 381 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: there have to be more reliant on on brand advertising 382 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: that sort of contextual Just just to be clear, do 383 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: we know like have they put a dollar amount or 384 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: Facebook put it amount on there? Actually and I don't 385 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: have it off the top of my head. Um. I mean, 386 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: their market cap has taken a huge it and some 387 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: of it is regulation, but have they really been regulated? Yeah, 388 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: Like it's just there's kind of just the specter of regulation. 389 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: It's not like Congress hasn't gone after Um. The only 390 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: real big tech regulation and I talked about in the 391 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: book is the FTC went after YouTube for illegally targeting 392 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: kids with with collecting data on children under thirteen. Um. 393 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: And and that's another area where like there's this whole 394 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: online academy that then unregulated and and you know you're 395 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: not allowed to collect data on children under thirteen, yet 396 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: a lot of companies have done that. I mean, we 397 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: don't know the numbers for YouTube, in part because they 398 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: don't share their financial data. But what was what was 399 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: meant as market drop valuation dropping the test? I don't know, 400 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: but definitely I'll just say this I'm not. Let's say, 401 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: actually the stock went from around three six one sixty 402 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: and the market cap at the peak of was about 403 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: one point six trillion, and now it's Facebook, So then okay, 404 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: of that roughly half a trillion dollar market cap. Has 405 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: anyone made an attempt to say how much can we 406 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: ascribe this to Apple and the change that change in 407 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: the online Facebook's business is primarily mobile advertising UM and iPhones, 408 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: and there was a new stat I think recently that 409 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: they're now that they just lead probably Android in the US, 410 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: the most popular UH system. Apple has historictly been UH 411 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: the Apple phones just to make a lot more money 412 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: per user than Android phones do. And so we can 413 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: assume that Facebook makes a lot more money on on 414 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: iPhones than on Android, and so that is the bulk 415 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: of their busines this and I think it's you could say, 416 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: like a significant impact. So you mentioned antitrust a number 417 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: of times, and also the sensitivity of like Google complaining 418 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: about what Apple is doing, given that they have a 419 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: slightly different relationship with Apple than something like Meta, and 420 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: also given that they're under um antitrust scrutiny themselves. But 421 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: what are the chances that we do get some sort 422 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: of antitrust action when it comes to Apple and their 423 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: transparency push, because it seems like it seems a little difficult. 424 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: It's like, on the one hand, well, you you know, 425 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: you own the product, you're making it a waltz garden, 426 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: you're cutting people off from it. But on the other hand, 427 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: you say you're doing it for privacy reasons. Right, that 428 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: should sound good to regulators. Right. They've had more Apples, 429 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: certainly him we're pressure around the app store and the 430 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: accusation that they're running on like an app store monopoly 431 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: or or and that you know, if you own an iPhone, 432 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: you be're basically like Apple is the gatekeeper. Um and 433 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: and and I think there's digital advertising, and there's certainly 434 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: companies in the advertising space to complain about that, like Apple, 435 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: one movement from Cupertino has single handed that like has 436 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: huge ripple effects for this multi billion dollar digital advertising world. 437 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: I think that as Furries, I understand, Apple has faced 438 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: some in Congress and the epic lawsuit the creators of 439 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: Fortnite is sued. Apple also sued Google, but they've really 440 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: gone after Apple. Um about this is about app in 441 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: store app fees for for Fortnite games. I think that, 442 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: like for Google's case, the most likely outcome from any 443 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: antitrust might be to kneecap some of their attack and 444 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: and like the way the digital advertised worms, So what 445 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: about for small businesses that I mean, this is the 446 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: argument in favor of like hyper targeted advertising. That's like 447 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: I can get like, are you looking for a new 448 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: dentist in the east village or Chief Lightening or something 449 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: like that could we have hyper targets? Oh my god, 450 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: how did they know I need a Chief White? I'm 451 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 1: doing video for odd lots now I'm doing I need 452 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: Chief Lightening. You hear about these complaints, but sometimes you 453 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: can't tell if it's like astroid turf, like some group 454 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: that Facebook like may have like encouraged like how real 455 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: is this? For the companies, they were able to find 456 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: a model because they're really good at, like, you know, 457 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: finding their exact potential customers and Facebook. Part of the 458 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: success of Facebook and Google has been the long tail, 459 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: like the mom and pop advertisers. Facebook has leaned into 460 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: this a lot as a response to Google as well. 461 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: They're going to as office and Congress and saying like, 462 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: why are you trying to hurt small businesses right, and 463 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: like that might be a compelling argument. Um, certainly it 464 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: has politically like for a P and G, like everyone 465 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: is going to buy laundry detergent or something, right, but 466 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: its so for them, I don't know if they need 467 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: as hyper targeting as like yeah, I mean like P 468 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: and G level, they basically operated as like a they'd 469 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: like and they have all these agencies that effectively operates 470 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: consultancies and like they're looking at spread like they're running 471 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: as with spreadsheets and algorithms and like moving the numbers 472 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: around and so yes, Um, I think that is somewhat compelling. 473 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: Um the fact that there and probably going to continue 474 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: to like they know the argument that that Facebook and 475 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: Google will make despite these changes around we lose some 476 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: of our our targeting and richness. Um, the audience is 477 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: still here like like relative this has been Like YouTube's 478 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: argument for for over a decade now is like compared 479 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: to television, there are so many more people and someone 480 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: where hours spent on YouTube and that the amount of 481 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: money marketing dollars spent on television is not proportionate. Like 482 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: if you need, if you're like want to, if you 483 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: want to challenge and there's been some challenger brands in CpG, right, 484 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 1: like the challenge the real smart challenger brands will like 485 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: be where the kids are and we'll be like get 486 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: in front of the audience on digital and do like 487 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: sponsored content deals and and like can lean into digital advertising. 488 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: That's that's effectively worked, right, Like these companies have grown 489 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: because that argument has worked and money is moving over 490 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: from TV to the Internet. What exactly is Apple searching 491 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: advertising business? Like there's an Apple search engine? Right? Like 492 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: what exactly are we talk about when we say Apples 493 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: really Like, I mean there is their Siri, which is 494 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: an Apple search engine in some ways, right, Um, there's 495 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: the app store, which I think is that's where the 496 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: expect like if you look at the Tea leaves on 497 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: where they're hiring and putting resources it is to run 498 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: like effectively like a search advertising business in the store. Yeah, 499 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: Like you want to promote um, I don't know, like 500 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: you're searching for like Uber and lifts, Like I want 501 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: to like spend money to be up the top result 502 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: when you search for Uber and then people are going 503 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: to click on lift. Right, So what's the sort of 504 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: like game plan from the facebooks of the world or 505 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: the YouTube's of the world, Like what can they do 506 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: to actually try to offset this? And I guess a 507 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: very extreme example, but you know, could I don't know, 508 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: could Facebook like launch its own phone or something like 509 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: if the idea is to get as close to a 510 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: customer as possible. Well this, I mean Google has like 511 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm got a pixel Google Pixel in front of me, 512 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: in part because it's a company I cover and and 513 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: Google pickels. Pixel was a response because like they Google 514 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: has Android open source software model. They give away their 515 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: software for free to Samsung and like a galaxy of 516 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: pun intended a galaxy of handset makers um and that 517 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: they like for a long time. Like Google was like, okay, 518 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: these will be rivals to Apple, and it hasn't really 519 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: happened in Apple, like I said, has just premium, like 520 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: people spend more money on iPhones. And then I think 521 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: Google saw in part they're investing in Pixel because they 522 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: saw this world. They're like, oh, our digital advertising model 523 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: is not going to last for a long time. We 524 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: need to own and operate the actual hardware. We reported 525 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: on this quite a bit. Facebook has tried several times, 526 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: looks like I mean their company is now pivoting towards 527 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: like I think Mark Zuckerberg's bet is that we're going 528 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: to stick a phone in our face and he's going 529 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: to own that right and like, so that's there. They've 530 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: renamed the company meta, like Facebook's existential crisis has always 531 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: been like Google and Apple owned the operating systems where 532 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: they make the most of their money. And so the 533 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: movement the metaverses Facebook will why are we even recording 534 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: this altogether at a studio? We could be like the 535 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: Google and YouTube and and the rest of social media 536 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: is commerce, like pushing commerce pretty aggressively. Um, and this 537 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: looks like I think more ways to purchase directly, buy 538 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: something directly on Instagram, for instance, UM, buy something directly 539 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: in a YouTube video, Like I think they're running into 540 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: like the the uncanny valley of how much do you 541 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: want social media to look like the home shopping network? 542 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: But the YouTube and part of the reason I wrote 543 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: this book because it really fascinating, like they've built up 544 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: the millions. There are about two million, over two million 545 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: creators that make money on YouTube. That number is actually 546 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: down from when the company had to make it a 547 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: little bit harder, but that's a lot of that's just 548 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: that's a whole economy. So many of them are now 549 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: comfortable because the uh because of it's been harder and 550 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: increasingly harder to make money and then to make now 551 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: with with Apple's changes higher ad rates online. So they're 552 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: moving towards and you can if you watch enough YouTube, 553 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: you like a lot of them have sponsored content deals, 554 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: right or they're just like trying to sell their merch 555 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: and their merchandise like tabs and they're looking in the 556 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: channel I think there are they're experimenting TikTok because also 557 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: moving in commerce like that is a direct response to 558 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: Apple into privacy regulation, um cutting out, carving out the 559 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: like the profitability of about online ads, so you know, 560 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: just less big picture. Did it feel like this is 561 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: the end of you know, Tracy mentioned like if I 562 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: don't remember when we did it three or four years ago, 563 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: someone came on and talked to us about the extent 564 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: to which the entire Internet is all adds And does 565 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: it feel like the does this feel like a turning point? 566 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: Because then and I don't want to even like talk 567 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: about I don't even want to say the say the word, 568 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: but like web three and this idea like there's gonna 569 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: be like something else that's like we have to like 570 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: buy coins. I'm actually surprised we've made it like no ads, 571 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: we just like buy coins from market and reason in 572 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: order the internet like that, Like is that is this 573 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: a turning point? Is that the the possibility of web three nowithstanding, 574 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: Like the criticism of the in Reasons of the world 575 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: is like, look at this, this economy we built around 576 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 1: them advertising is not the world we want. And like 577 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: I think I was sharing an anecdote from the book, 578 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: which is, you know YouTube started like a decade ago. 579 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: YouTube was not making money. It was it was unprofitable 580 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: um and they had they they were trying to after 581 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: the financial crisis, They're like, Okay, we need to make 582 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: money from this thing. And there was an ads manager 583 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: who gave a presentation on stage about how they were 584 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: going to do it, and Sergey Brenn, who this is 585 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: not confirmed, but Sergey Brandon, my reporting brand is a 586 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: founder of Google Worth, one of the world's wealthiest men, 587 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: largely based on a search advertising business, made a joke 588 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: about how you know how the YouTube ads were like 589 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: he interrupted the speech being like ha ha, Like YouTube 590 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: ads are interruptive disruptive and we five point seven billion. 591 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: But like the founders of Google have never at that point, 592 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: the founders have like notoriously never loved advertising as a 593 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: business model, like it has clearly been successful for them, 594 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: Like they will make a descript like a lot of 595 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: them will be like search ads, search ads, You're delivering 596 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: a thing that you really want and the rest of 597 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: the ad is kind of icky, and like there's a 598 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: sense it's this weird irony and the fact that they're 599 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: the biggest online advertising company and yet a lot of 600 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 1: people that work they're like don't love this. It's kind 601 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: of sleazy market Like people in marketing names. I think 602 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: they think of it as like old economy, right, like 603 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: ad sales absolutely true, and so web web three whatever. 604 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: Like I think that you can the sort of case 605 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: inside Silicon Valley is like here's a chance for us 606 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: to reinvent ourselves. In Google's history, like in the past decade, 607 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: they've been just trying to find a business that's not 608 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: reliant on as cloud computing is the main one. You know, 609 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: YouTube has subscriptions, there's YouTube TV, there's common Like they 610 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: have been always searching for ways to move past this 611 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: um in part for all the reasons we talked about, 612 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: in part because they don't love it, uh And but 613 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: at the same time, like you know, YouTube was once 614 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: it's competing with Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney on original programming 615 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: and subscriptions, they mostly dropped out there, like let these 616 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: companies like bury themselves competing for subscribers, and We're just 617 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: gonna continue to dominate a pretty good, marching heavy business 618 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 1: even after after changes like on I askin remains a 619 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: pretty successful business in Google's testament for that. Mark Bergen, 620 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: congrats on the book, and thank you so much for 621 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. So. I 622 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: thought that was really interesting, Joe, and the whole transparency 623 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: pushed by Apple was not something that was really on 624 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: my radar other than I sort of like clocked it 625 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: a little bit when I was using my phone, but 626 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: I hadn't a thought of the impact on other businesses. 627 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting what Mark was saying about 628 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: this idea that for a lot of these big tech companies, 629 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: like they want to get away from the business of 630 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: ad sales. And it feels like that almost from inception, 631 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: like there's almost an aversion to anything to do with 632 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: media from the tech companies, even though ultimately they're in 633 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: the business of selling media, right, Like, no one actually 634 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: wants to be a content producer, at least YouTube does it. 635 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: Um And when you you know, this idea of actually 636 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: having to go out and sell ads, like it does 637 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: seem kind of old fashioned. It does. And I remember 638 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: thinking about that too, because when like Google came on 639 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: the scene, it's like this sort of wow factor. It's 640 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: like there's magical money machine because you tell the computer 641 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 1: what you're looking for and then that's the most amazing 642 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: form of ads. But then then a few years later 643 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: and they probably have like whole teams internally dedicated to 644 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: like taking ad sales buyers from Procter and Gamble to 645 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,959 Speaker 1: the US Open or like taking them out for wine 646 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: and stuff. Is like, man, this is like this is 647 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: kind of like old school. This doesn't seem very techy 648 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, And I guess my other big takeaway 649 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: from that conversation is we should be telling people to like, 650 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: comment and subscribe, right, We should definitely be telling people 651 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: to like, comment and subscribe, So please do that. Uh, 652 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: if you're listening, you know, just one other thing, you know, 653 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: it always seems and Mark was talking about like the 654 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: sort of the incredible ecosystem of ad tech companies and 655 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: how there's like nine middlemen, right, And I've always thought 656 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: there was an interesting and I asked that question about speculators, 657 00:34:54,640 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: like there's the interesting analogy between online ads and financial markets, 658 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: whereas you might find an edge at some point like oh, 659 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: this capacity space is really cheap here, or I found 660 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: a really cheap way to get in front of these 661 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: high dollar clients, and then everyone discovers it arbitrage really quickly. 662 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: So it's like and then the search for the new one, 663 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: and so you think, why is there this's like endless 664 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: parade of ad tech companies and it's like everyone like 665 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: trying to find that ORB. But look, if data is 666 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: gonna be harder to come by, that's gonna people are 667 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: gonna have to really put into more work. Yeah, and 668 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: then the question is what is the new edge? Because 669 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: people got so into targeted advertising, like what comes next? 670 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: You know, we don't talk about like tech business a lot. 671 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: Maybe we should talk about because it's just there's so 672 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, these companies are obviously so important in our 673 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: entire life. For many many years, we haven't really had 674 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: to talk about tech business. The share prices they just 675 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: went up. They just went up. But uh yeah, Now 676 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: I guess the question is is the future is like 677 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 1: to use the internet. We got to buy a coin 678 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: from from Jeris in Horwan's all right on that happy note. 679 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there? Okay. 680 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 681 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 682 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway, and I'm Joe Wisn't Though. You can follow 683 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guest on Twitter, 684 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: Mark Bergen, He's at m h Bergen, and check out 685 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: his new book Like Comments. Subscribe inside YouTube's chaotic rise 686 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: to world domination. Follow our producer Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen 687 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 1: Armine and check out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg 688 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: under the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening.