Speaker 1: It was two ladies and gentlemen, the governor of Alaska
Speaker 1: and the next Vice President of the United States, Sarah Palin.
Speaker 1: Sarah Palin burst onto the national scene ten years ago,
Speaker 1: and nobody had seen anything quite like her. Thank You.
Speaker 1: Her coming out party was in St. Paul, Minnesota, at
Speaker 1: the Republican National Convention. I will be honored to accept
Speaker 1: your nomination for Vice President of the United States. One
Speaker 1: of the great convention speeches that anybody will ever deliver.
Speaker 1: I accepted Paul to help our nominee for president to
Speaker 1: serve and defend America. Her speech was better than John mccains.
Speaker 1: Her speech was the best speech of the convention. I
Speaker 1: might add that in small towns, we don't quite know
Speaker 1: what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on
Speaker 1: working people when they're listening, and then talks about how
Speaker 1: bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those
Speaker 1: people aren't listening. I was so happy for her. She
Speaker 1: nailed it. I ask you to join our cause and
Speaker 1: help America elect a great man as the next President
Speaker 1: of the United States. And after the party was over,
Speaker 1: it was time for Palin to hit the campaign trail
Speaker 1: and meet the press. Do you consider yourself a feminist.
Speaker 1: I do feminists who believes in equal rights, and I
Speaker 1: believe that women. This month marks ten years since my
Speaker 1: interview with Sarah Palin actually interviews plural. We had a
Speaker 1: total of four separate conversations. If it doesn't pass, what
Speaker 1: is the alternative that the as I say, in action
Speaker 1: is not an option. We have got to shore up
Speaker 1: our economy. This is crisis moment for America. Really, the
Speaker 1: rest of the world also looking to see what the
Speaker 1: impacts will be if America were to choose not to
Speaker 1: shore up what has happened on Wall Street because of
Speaker 1: the the ultimate adverse effects on Main Street, and then
Speaker 1: how that affects this globalization that we're a part of
Speaker 1: in our world. So the rest of the world really
Speaker 1: is I've done thousands of interviews during the course of
Speaker 1: my career, but this one perhaps had the greatest impact.
Speaker 1: It was everywhere all over the internet and oliver people
Speaker 1: for a long time. That is one of the most
Speaker 1: pathetic pieces of tape I have ever seen. For someone
Speaker 1: aspiring to one of the highest officers in this country.
Speaker 1: Palin is clearly out of leave and she has become,
Speaker 1: as you noted, an object of ridicule, in part because
Speaker 1: of that Katie Couric interview, which was a real turning
Speaker 1: point in her kid The interviews were even spoofed on
Speaker 1: s N. L Amy Pollard did her best Katie Curic,
Speaker 1: and famously, Tina Fey channeled Sarah Palin Katie, I'd like
Speaker 1: to use one of my lifelines. I'm sorry, I want
Speaker 1: to phone a friend. Sarah Palin was mocked because of
Speaker 1: what she didn't know, but maybe despite her lack of
Speaker 1: policy detail, she actually knew more about the American electorate
Speaker 1: than we realized. What if Sarah Palin was a sign
Speaker 1: of things to come? We tend to prefer candidates who
Speaker 1: don't talk about us. One way in Scranton and another
Speaker 1: way in San Francisco. This weekend next week and a
Speaker 1: two part special, we're looking back at the rise and
Speaker 1: fall of one of the most captivating candidates in recent memory.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about the interview that was literally heard around
Speaker 1: the world and the impact it had on the two
Speaker 1: thousand eight election. We'll also take a look at the
Speaker 1: American political scene today, Are you ready to make America
Speaker 1: great Again? And we'll consider the path Sarah Palin may
Speaker 1: have paved for the current President of the United States,
Speaker 1: God was the United States America and our next President
Speaker 1: of the United States, Donald J. Trump. Answer spinning Media
Speaker 1: answer spinning. This is gonna be sold much funding. So, Katie,
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and eight, as you know, I
Speaker 1: worked with you at CBS as your political producer, and
Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time getting ready for those interviews.
Speaker 1: And since then we've actually spent even more more time
Speaker 1: thinking and talking to people about those conversations. And Brian,
Speaker 1: we should mention that one person we didn't talk to
Speaker 1: for this podcast is Governor Palin herself, but not for
Speaker 1: lack of trying. We did reach out and we asked
Speaker 1: her if she'd like to participate, but we still haven't
Speaker 1: gotten a response. In order to understand Sarah Palin, you
Speaker 1: first need to understand the McCain campaign. Steve's here, How
Speaker 1: are you? How are We sat down with Steve Schmidt,
Speaker 1: a Republican strategist who had worked on the campaigns of
Speaker 1: George W. Bush and Arnold Schwarzenegger. I've never talked about
Speaker 1: any of this stuff in the first person. Steve first
Speaker 1: got involved in the McCain campaign back in two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven, when it looked like the Arizona Senator wasn't
Speaker 1: even going to be a serious contender for his party's
Speaker 1: presidential nomination. His campaign had collapsed in the summer of
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, and he had gone from front
Speaker 1: runner to last play completely broke. The National Press Corps
Speaker 1: was assembled in Manchester waiting for him to arrive. He
Speaker 1: came in on a Southwest Airlines flight in the back
Speaker 1: in the middle seat, you know, when are you getting
Speaker 1: out of the race? And he called me, you know,
Speaker 1: and I helped lead, you know, a comeback that he
Speaker 1: was a big comeback in the history of presidential nominations,
Speaker 1: from last to first, but it was just completely overshadowed
Speaker 1: by the historic nature of the Hillary and the Obama race.
Speaker 1: The day that McCain becomes the nominee of the party,
Speaker 1: essentially there's thirty five people working for the campaign, were
Speaker 1: nine million dollars in debt, and the four senior people
Speaker 1: were all volunteers. I was a volunteer all the way through.
Speaker 1: By contrast, day that Obama becomes the nominee, there's two
Speaker 1: thousand people working on the campaign. There's hundreds of millions
Speaker 1: of dollars in the bank, it was like fighting the
Speaker 1: Death Star. And you know, by the time we get
Speaker 1: to the summer of oh eight, when I take over
Speaker 1: dated A responsibilities for the campaign, Barack Obama is in
Speaker 1: Berlin Um speaking to hundreds of thousands of screaming Germans
Speaker 1: in the Steuben plots wherever it is. Let me thank
Speaker 1: Chancellor Merkel, and thank you to the people of Germany
Speaker 1: for this extraordinary welcome. Thank you. You know we're watching
Speaker 1: this on TV on a day where McCain has the
Speaker 1: Straight Talk Express parked outside of literally Schmidt's sausage house.
Speaker 1: Schmitt's house, no relation to Steve Schmidt, who is part
Speaker 1: of our campaign, as we know, somewhere in Ohio, and
Speaker 1: there's six old ladies standing out there, right, boy, and
Speaker 1: they're like, you're in charge, right, You're to be in
Speaker 1: charge now. And so we came back over that summer
Speaker 1: really from a deficit of fourteen fifteen points, and we
Speaker 1: were by the time the Democratic Convention gets ready to go,
Speaker 1: we're in an even race. They came back in part
Speaker 1: by highlighting Obama's lack of experience. He's the biggest celebrity
Speaker 1: in the world, but is he ready to lead? I'm
Speaker 1: John McCain and I approved this message. Steve Schmidt was
Speaker 1: feeling pretty good about the gains the McCain campaign had
Speaker 1: made over the summer, but he still knew the chances
Speaker 1: of winning or slim. It was definitely a change election.
Speaker 1: There's been three times in the last you know, at
Speaker 1: that point a hundred and eight years, where the incoming
Speaker 1: president's party had gotten a third term. So we knew
Speaker 1: we were in difficult circumstances and we were going to
Speaker 1: have to do something big and to throw the ball.
Speaker 1: So remember that in two thousand eight, you have a
Speaker 1: flagging economy, a disastrous war in Iraq, and into R. W. Bush,
Speaker 1: a very unpopular incumbent Republican president, and here comes Barack Obama,
Speaker 1: who had defeated Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary and
Speaker 1: a huge upset. He was young, He gave these soaring speeches.
Speaker 1: His campaign's mantra of hope and change was electrifying voters,
Speaker 1: and he presented America with the legitimate possibility of electing
Speaker 1: the first African American president ever. So, yeah, Katie, I
Speaker 1: think it's safe to say that McCain's team was feeling
Speaker 1: the pressure. He said, we're not gonna win We're just
Speaker 1: we're gonna go to the bottom of the of the drink,
Speaker 1: so to speak, here really fast, no excitement, no sizzle. UM.
Speaker 1: And I said, our our choices sucked. This process has
Speaker 1: been bad. We don't have a viable choice now to
Speaker 1: do what we need to do politically. And I said,
Speaker 1: um to my ever lasting regret in these words slowed
Speaker 1: down in my mind to to this day. And I said,
Speaker 1: what about Sarah Palin? I said, I don't know much
Speaker 1: about her other than she's the most popular governor in
Speaker 1: the country. She's got an eighty six percent approval rating.
Speaker 1: She's gone after the oil companies. She's feuding with all
Speaker 1: these corrupt Alaska politicians, including the senators that McCain hates
Speaker 1: their guts. I said, we should check her out, and
Speaker 1: the rest is history. One of Steve Schmidt's closest colleagues
Speaker 1: during that campaign was Nicole Wallace. They'd worked together in
Speaker 1: California politics and for George W. Bush, it was Wallace
Speaker 1: who was assigned to help Sarah Palin prepare for the
Speaker 1: major moments of the campaign. How has it been ten years?
Speaker 1: I'm scarred as though it was yesterday. Well, let's talk
Speaker 1: about how you got those scars in the first place.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the first day you
Speaker 1: met Sarah Palin. What were your initial impressions. So I
Speaker 1: didn't know who her McCain had selected, and I tried
Speaker 1: to squeeze in a root canal, which is the kind
Speaker 1: of idiocy you engage in on presidential campaigns in between
Speaker 1: the two conventions. So I had raised home to New
Speaker 1: York to have a root canal, and they called and
Speaker 1: they said you have to be there for VP and
Speaker 1: ounce and UM. And I threw a fit. And I
Speaker 1: was on vicadin and antibiotics and out of my mind.
Speaker 1: And I and I take a flight and we drive
Speaker 1: to Middletale and I pulled up in front of it
Speaker 1: and I said, there is no way Steve Schmidt is
Speaker 1: staying here. This place is such a dumb We get
Speaker 1: out and and Steve and Salter outside and Salter smoking
Speaker 1: like two cigarettes with one hand, and I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, what are we done? And they they threw
Speaker 1: open the door, and I'm three sheets to the wind
Speaker 1: on vicadin. And I stared at her and I think,
Speaker 1: I think of who is this? You know, she's beautiful,
Speaker 1: but who is this? And and Steve said, Nicole, meet
Speaker 1: the next Vice President of the United States, Sarah Palin
Speaker 1: from the great State of Alaska. And I said, and
Speaker 1: I said, nice to meet you. Congratulations. She had on
Speaker 1: a black fleece and a black mini skirt and she
Speaker 1: was just stunning and charming and charismatic. And I talked
Speaker 1: to her for a minute and I said, excuse me,
Speaker 1: and I walked out, and Steve followed me out, and
Speaker 1: he said, what do you think And I said, oh,
Speaker 1: she's great. She seems great. And he said there's a
Speaker 1: couple of things. It's not going to be smooth. And
Speaker 1: I said, well, I said, well, you know, the daughter
Speaker 1: is pregnant. And I said, oh, okay, and I said
Speaker 1: she's sixteen. I said okay, and then he and he said,
Speaker 1: you know, he gave me a couple other red flags.
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, yeah, I'm sure everything will work out.
Speaker 1: And and she was. You know, she was a surprise
Speaker 1: to me, as she was a surprise to the country,
Speaker 1: a surprise to Wallace because she knew who McCain's first
Speaker 1: choice for vice president actually was. The idea was that
Speaker 1: McCain was going to go out and he was going
Speaker 1: to say Barack Obama is a good man, and I
Speaker 1: think he's gonna be President of the United States someday,
Speaker 1: but not yet. He's not ready, and we have some
Speaker 1: serious problems in this country. And then say, I'm seventy
Speaker 1: two years old. I've spent every hour of my adult
Speaker 1: life in service to the country, and if the American
Speaker 1: people so honor me with it, I have one last mission.
Speaker 1: For that mission, I've asked a great American, a great
Speaker 1: member of the Democratic Party, to stand with me, Senator
Speaker 1: Joe Lieberman. I'm going to serve one term only, and
Speaker 1: we thought we had a chance with that. How close
Speaker 1: did you come to extreme? Became extremely close. You might recall,
Speaker 1: Joe Lieberman was besties with John McCain and along with
Speaker 1: Senator Lindsey Graham, they were called the Three Amigos. Graham
Speaker 1: was so excited about the Lieberman idea he just couldn't
Speaker 1: keep it to himself. So what happened was Lindsey Graham
Speaker 1: um floated this idea out at a meeting somewhere in
Speaker 1: South Carolina with a lot of hardcore conservatives, and you know,
Speaker 1: the answer was predictable, and literally within hours, you know,
Speaker 1: President Bush had called Rove had called um your Russ
Speaker 1: Limbaud called Hannity, and so we said, I can't do it.
Speaker 1: So to be clear, but for Lindsay Graham's leak, the
Speaker 1: ticket would have been McCain and Lieberman. There would have
Speaker 1: been unhappiness, there may have been controlled rioting, but I
Speaker 1: think we would have gotten it through. So the base
Speaker 1: of the party was having none of Joe Lieberman. But
Speaker 1: John McCain was still ready to do something big and bold.
Speaker 1: Was this a real hail Mary? Yeah? For sure. He
Speaker 1: felt like there was this little sliver of the electorate
Speaker 1: that might be available. Um uh, people that that that
Speaker 1: had been really hungry for a female Canada and Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1: And you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't lay at all
Speaker 1: on that. I think there were a lot of things
Speaker 1: about Sarah Palin that appealed to John McCain, the maverick.
Speaker 1: But but certainly, you know, putting a woman on the ticket.
Speaker 1: It turned out to be important to him when he
Speaker 1: selected her. Meanwhile, the Obama campaign learned of the choice
Speaker 1: as they wrapped up their convention. Here's Obama chief strategist
Speaker 1: David axel Rod and we got on the plane leaving
Speaker 1: Denver the campaign plane and I got on my BlackBerry,
Speaker 1: which is what we were carrying at the time, the
Speaker 1: news that, uh, Sarah Palin had been chosen as the
Speaker 1: running mate. And when you got that news, what was
Speaker 1: your reaction. I was surprised. We had been doing research
Speaker 1: on I think seven potential running mates for John McCain.
Speaker 1: She was not one of them. I really didn't know
Speaker 1: that much about her. I will say I went up
Speaker 1: to the front of the plane and I grabbed Obama
Speaker 1: and I told him, you know, he's big Sarah Palin
Speaker 1: and m Biden ran over after a while and so
Speaker 1: what's going on? And I told him and he said,
Speaker 1: who's Sarah Palin? Yeah. I remember Senator Obama saying, in
Speaker 1: his analytical way, now, that's very interesting why I think
Speaker 1: he did that. And he's running through the reasons in
Speaker 1: his own head. She's a woman, she's an outsider, represents change.
Speaker 1: And then he paused and he said, but you know,
Speaker 1: he said, this running for president thing, this is tough.
Speaker 1: He said, you know, I think I'm a reasonably smart guy.
Speaker 1: And it took me probably six months before I was
Speaker 1: a halfway decent candidate. Uh, you know, maybe she's the
Speaker 1: greatest politician since Ronald Reagan. And she could come right
Speaker 1: out of it Alaska and handle this Maelstrom, he said.
Speaker 1: But I'd give this about a month and then we'll know.
Speaker 1: And I am especially proud to say in the week
Speaker 1: we celebrate the anniversary of women's suffrage, devoted wife and
Speaker 1: a mother of five, she's got the great integrity, good sense,
Speaker 1: and fierce devotion to the common good. That is exactly
Speaker 1: what we need in Washington today. I know that it
Speaker 1: will demand the best that I have to give, and
Speaker 1: I promise nothing less. I just thought, I don't know
Speaker 1: how this is gonna work out, and I said so publicly,
Speaker 1: and I was told quite explicitly. And I won't tell
Speaker 1: you a boy who to shut the hell up. That's
Speaker 1: a long time Republican polster and TV pundit, Frank Lents.
Speaker 1: He actually spends a lot of time out in the
Speaker 1: country talking to voters. So why do you think she
Speaker 1: was picked? I think she was picked because people like
Speaker 1: Bill Crystal thought she'd be amazing. Uh. There are a
Speaker 1: number of stories that were positive about her. In the
Speaker 1: Weekly stand. Udered that Fox News had talked about her,
Speaker 1: and there was that pressure from the conservative intelligentsia that
Speaker 1: they should go with it, John McCain should go with
Speaker 1: someone who wasn't necessarily from the intelligencia, that they should
Speaker 1: go with someone who could really connect because everyone knew
Speaker 1: that Barack Obama could connect. This is the time when
Speaker 1: they started to say among Republicans that they wanted to
Speaker 1: choose someone who could relate to people in the phone
Speaker 1: book rather than people who taught at Harvard, Yale or Princeton.
Speaker 1: But the boys were doing, we're out chopping wood, and
Speaker 1: we're out hunting and fishing and filling our freezer with
Speaker 1: good while to lasting game to feed our family. So
Speaker 1: it kind of started with but we've never had it
Speaker 1: in this kind of package before. We never had someone
Speaker 1: who actually did pick up a gun and shoot bears.
Speaker 1: We never had someone who could skin a fish or
Speaker 1: some of the phrases that she used fish whatever you
Speaker 1: gotta fish, skin of fish. I hate fish, so you
Speaker 1: gotta understand I would find it morally and physically reprehensible
Speaker 1: to do anything with a fish. But she could. And
Speaker 1: that was what was different about her. She was real,
Speaker 1: She was she was every American, and she was approachable.
Speaker 1: She was relatable, and that is not typical. She's not
Speaker 1: she's not from these parts, and she's not from Washington.
Speaker 1: But when you get to know her, you're gonna be
Speaker 1: as impressed as I am. Tonight, we are still looking
Speaker 1: at a major hurricane. There's no change there. The choice
Speaker 1: of Sarah Palin was announced on a Friday, and her
Speaker 1: first big test was the Republican National Convention, which was
Speaker 1: supposed to start the following Monday, but it could be
Speaker 1: up to twelve to six a storm surge. There was
Speaker 1: a Category five hurricane that was forecast to hit New
Speaker 1: Orleans on the day that Bush and Cheney were both
Speaker 1: speaking at the Republican Convention with approval levels. It was
Speaker 1: also the third anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, which served as
Speaker 1: yet another reminder of the GOP's very unpopular incumbent. I
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, when is somebody to tell me?
Speaker 1: The Straight Talk Express hit the bubonic plague bus right
Speaker 1: and then wiped out the city at Charleston. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was just you couldn't you couldn't make it up.
Speaker 1: It was the most intensive kind of communications crisis experience
Speaker 1: I've had in my life. After a rocky start, the
Speaker 1: convention was back on course. Let's get John McCain and
Speaker 1: say her pent elected. It was day three. Rudy Giuliani,
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney, and Mike Huckabee, all men. John McCain beat
Speaker 1: in the primary spoke, and then it was Palin's turn.
Speaker 1: The stakes could not have been higher, and I'm backstage
Speaker 1: with McCain, who'se boy, goes, how's she gonna do in
Speaker 1: the speech? I was like, it's it's gonna be okay, um,
Speaker 1: not believing that necessarily right, ladies and gentlemen, the governor
Speaker 1: of Alaska. I don't ever ever told the story, but
Speaker 1: I walked her onto the stage and she was holding
Speaker 1: my hand and she had tea, and the last thing
Speaker 1: she did was hand me her tea, and then I
Speaker 1: let go of her hand and she goes to have
Speaker 1: to go out there now. I said, she's gonna go
Speaker 1: out there now, it's gonna be great, and oh god,
Speaker 1: it gives me like the same like tightness in my
Speaker 1: chest ten years later. But she went out there and
Speaker 1: I was standing so close to her that I was
Speaker 1: reading the prompt or alongside her, and at one point
Speaker 1: someone held up a sign and covered the prompter and
Speaker 1: I went, oh fuck, it's like don't cover the prompter,
Speaker 1: and Sarah Palin without missing a beat. That was when
Speaker 1: she said, I love those hockey moms. You know they
Speaker 1: say the difference between a hockey mom and a pit
Speaker 1: bull lipstick. That wasn't in the speed though it was
Speaker 1: a fan held up a sign and covered her prompter
Speaker 1: for a minute, and I, you know, died a thousand
Speaker 1: deaths in that moment. That impromptu zinger had convention goers
Speaker 1: eating out of Palin's hand. Katie, you and I were there,
Speaker 1: and as you know, the speech was both funny and
Speaker 1: very moving. No matter how you feel about Sarah Palin
Speaker 1: today back then, if you were in that convention hall
Speaker 1: or watching on TV, she definitely hit it out of
Speaker 1: the park. Our nominee for president is a true profile
Speaker 1: and courage and like that are hard to come by.
Speaker 1: He's a man who wore the uniform of his country
Speaker 1: for twenty two years and refused to break faith with
Speaker 1: those troops in Iraq who now have brought victory within sight.
Speaker 1: And as the mother of one of those troops, that
Speaker 1: is exactly the kind of man I want as commander
Speaker 1: in ch I was in the back room with with
Speaker 1: John McCain. Here's Steve Schmidt again in about thirty seconds.
Speaker 1: In a minute in he goes, she's good, she's good,
Speaker 1: she's good. Another minute it was, and she's great, great.
Speaker 1: You know by the time another couple of minutes and
Speaker 1: he's like, she's she's she's she's sucking great. Meanwhile, poster
Speaker 1: Frank Lantz was up in the stands. I was in
Speaker 1: the box with the big donors. And I need to
Speaker 1: be careful about this because many of them have been
Speaker 1: married to or even three times. And when they saw
Speaker 1: her step out with a the shortest skirt ever that
Speaker 1: anyone has worn at a national well, let us just
Speaker 1: say that they remarked verbally about how short it was.
Speaker 1: So perceptions, reality and politics. If that's what they perceive,
Speaker 1: its ok. And they said things that today might have
Speaker 1: gotten them into trouble. But they were mesmerized by her.
Speaker 1: The convention was mesmerized by her. I guess, I guess
Speaker 1: a small town mayor is sort of like a community organizer,
Speaker 1: except that you have actual responsibilities. Here's a little news
Speaker 1: flash for those reporters and commentators. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: Washington to seek their good opinion. I'm going to Washington
Speaker 1: and to serve the people of this great country. To
Speaker 1: this day, the loudest noise I have ever heard in
Speaker 1: my life created by human beings, was the sound of
Speaker 1: political ecstasy unleashed by one of the great convention speeches
Speaker 1: that anybody will ever deliver, Join our cause and help
Speaker 1: America elect a great man as the next president of
Speaker 1: the United States. She electrified that Republican convention. Everyone's high
Speaker 1: fiving each other. All the guys in that booth thought,
Speaker 1: this is going to be the next Margaret Thatcher, only
Speaker 1: approachable and relatable. I can't begin to illustrate just how
Speaker 1: excited the people in the box and all the people
Speaker 1: around me that this was the choice everyone walked out
Speaker 1: of They're thinking this may have been the most important
Speaker 1: speech that they had ever seen. And I remember afterwards,
Speaker 1: I saw John McCain too, and he he said the
Speaker 1: same thing. You know, she did great. And I said
Speaker 1: her prompter went down. He said it did and I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was blocked at one point and went down at
Speaker 1: one point. He goes, oh my god, I would have
Speaker 1: been fucked. I mean, you know, John McCain was so
Speaker 1: impressed by her, and I think she she had this
Speaker 1: much needed infusion of confidence, and when McCain came out
Speaker 1: after her speech, he actually asked the crowd, don't you
Speaker 1: think we made the right choice for the next vice
Speaker 1: President of the United States. But after the teleprompters were
Speaker 1: packed up and the hockey Mom signs were gathered off
Speaker 1: the convention floor, that question still remained. Did John McCain
Speaker 1: make the right choice for vice President? After the break,
Speaker 1: we'll get into what happened and what we were thinking
Speaker 1: when I sat down with Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin represents
Speaker 1: the loss mother Mayor, Moose, Hunter and Maverick joined me
Speaker 1: at a welcome for the next five president of the
Speaker 1: United States, Come Sarah. After her extraordinary performance at the convention,
Speaker 1: Sarah Palin continued to wow the crowds at Raleigh, thank
Speaker 1: you after rally, Wlorida are ready to send us to
Speaker 1: d C. After rally, I feel like I am at
Speaker 1: home because I see the car hearts and the steel
Speaker 1: tone boots. But it was also time for her to
Speaker 1: face a tougher audience journalists and Katie. As soon as
Speaker 1: Palin was picked, of course, we started trying to land
Speaker 1: an interview. Yeah, I was determined to sit down and
Speaker 1: face Sarah Palin one on one not to quote get her,
Speaker 1: but really to learn more about her and let the
Speaker 1: American people see who this person really was. McCain's team
Speaker 1: felt the same way. They thought it was a rite
Speaker 1: of passage for political candidates. Once again, here's Nicole Wallace.
Speaker 1: I do remember thinking it was important to do the
Speaker 1: places with the most reach, and so I remember the
Speaker 1: two networks that we settled on for ABC and CBS.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about our relationship. You were a CBS News
Speaker 1: political analysts and then you went on leave or left
Speaker 1: to work for the McCain campaign. So you and I
Speaker 1: did have a personal relationship, but that really didn't have
Speaker 1: anything to do with this, right. This is one of
Speaker 1: the funniest things about how Palin sort of internalized it.
Speaker 1: In any other campaign, it is viewed as sort of
Speaker 1: an asset. You worked for Katie. You understand the kinds
Speaker 1: of things she's interested in. The idea that either one
Speaker 1: of us would betray our professions, that that that I would,
Speaker 1: you know, put my finger on the scale for you
Speaker 1: and not the ticket is such a misunderstanding of how
Speaker 1: it works. I had an insight into the things that
Speaker 1: you asked any politician, the things that were of interest
Speaker 1: to you. I worked for her and tried to do
Speaker 1: my best to use that insight into what you like
Speaker 1: to cover, on what you were interested in, and I
Speaker 1: understood that you'd asked things that hadn't been asked before.
Speaker 1: With big interviews lined up, the campaign started prepping Palin,
Speaker 1: and almost immediately Steve Schmidt realized there was a lot
Speaker 1: of work to do. So I get on the bus
Speaker 1: and I say, um, you're gonna meet meeting your foreign
Speaker 1: policy briefing team later today. I said, I just want
Speaker 1: to start. I just want to talk to you narratively
Speaker 1: about the counterinsurgency strategy underway in Iraq. Twenty minutes later,
Speaker 1: I was like, somebody get me a map, and I
Speaker 1: was like, this is Iraq, this is Afghanistan. These are
Speaker 1: the people who lived in caves who came here on
Speaker 1: nine eleven and attacked us. No, they weren't from Iraq
Speaker 1: that we attacked them. Did she think they were from
Speaker 1: A Yeah, yeah, for sure, she thought the people responsible
Speaker 1: for nine eleven. So I'm having a conversation you know
Speaker 1: where she's thinking about. You know, it's the queen that
Speaker 1: the president would deal with on any one of a
Speaker 1: number of issues. And you know, I've kind of blocked
Speaker 1: this out. I recall being physically sick, um walking off
Speaker 1: of the bus into a bathroom, um over it. But
Speaker 1: was was shocked, scared, shitless. Um. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: The first time a doctor. It was obvious that she
Speaker 1: had not been not just a participant in any of
Speaker 1: the policy debates that had transpired in the previous five
Speaker 1: to ten years, but she hadn't paid attention to them.
Speaker 1: You know, this is kind of the occasion where there's
Speaker 1: tough conversation. I was. I was really angry, but you know,
Speaker 1: as as they say, we had to fix it. We
Speaker 1: had a we had a preparer, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: we had to get ready for you know, these first
Speaker 1: national interviews. So Katie, we should step back for a
Speaker 1: second and talk not just about the position Sarah Palin
Speaker 1: was in at the time, but the position you were
Speaker 1: in at the time. Do we have to Frankly, it
Speaker 1: was a tough period for me. After fifteen years at
Speaker 1: the Today Show, I was brought on by CBS to
Speaker 1: try to turn around the Evening News, which PS had
Speaker 1: been in third place for many, many years before I
Speaker 1: arrived five. There was a lot of hype around my hiring,
Speaker 1: and in retrospect, I think we may have tried to
Speaker 1: change too much, too quickly. But the result was even
Speaker 1: though we brought in a younger audience and I was
Speaker 1: proud of the work we did and by the way
Speaker 1: the awards we won, I really couldn't dramatically improve the ratings,
Speaker 1: and because of that I was getting some of the
Speaker 1: worst press of my life. I also think there might
Speaker 1: have been some sexism involved, but that's a whole other podcast.
Speaker 1: I have to agree with you on that, Katie. I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember the incessant coverage of your hair and your clothes,
Speaker 1: and anyway, as you say, that's a different show at
Speaker 1: a different time. Those were some dark days. I remember
Speaker 1: sitting at my kitchen table one night. I was so
Speaker 1: upset I might have been crying over my pasta, and
Speaker 1: my daughter Carrie said, Mom, don't forget what Samantha says
Speaker 1: on sex in the City. If I listened to what
Speaker 1: every bit in New York said about me, I'd never
Speaker 1: leave the house. Could you let your ten year old
Speaker 1: watch that? I know I really shouldn't have done that,
Speaker 1: but I have to say it did make me feel better,
Speaker 1: and so we were really eager to get the first
Speaker 1: interview with Sarah Palin and Brian. As you remember, we
Speaker 1: had actually scored the third interview with her. I remember
Speaker 1: being pretty upset about that. Yeah, I remember we were
Speaker 1: all very piste to put it mildly anyway. The first
Speaker 1: interview went to Charlie Gibson of ABC News. Do you
Speaker 1: agree with the Bush doctrine in what respect? Charlie? The
Speaker 1: second went to Sean Hannity at Fox. One of the
Speaker 1: big big benefits of the job as you get a
Speaker 1: really big plane. My husband, he's a pilot, but I
Speaker 1: would have to convince him. Also, we can't be getting
Speaker 1: around anymore in our little Piper super cub. We'd be
Speaker 1: used in that air forced outside your house. The larger
Speaker 1: than life. Rick Kaplan, who's a real legend in the
Speaker 1: TV news business, was the executive producer of the CBS
Speaker 1: Evening News. When Gibson got his interview, and then we said,
Speaker 1: oh god, we're not first, and and then after watching it,
Speaker 1: you knew and we hoped we had room there because
Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff that was not done
Speaker 1: right by by them. I remember feeling like this was
Speaker 1: a really important interview, and the stakes couldn't have been higher, Katie.
Speaker 1: Did you feel that way at the time, definitely, Brian.
Speaker 1: I knew it would get a lot of attention, and
Speaker 1: I would get a lot of attention. I really wanted
Speaker 1: to do a good job, not only for me, but
Speaker 1: also for the electorate, because I wanted them to get
Speaker 1: a sense of Sarah Palin's understanding of a number of
Speaker 1: important issues, where she stood how she would lead. And
Speaker 1: it sounds almost precious to say now, but it was
Speaker 1: a very divided country even back then, and the partisanship
Speaker 1: was so intense. I wanted to be viewed as an
Speaker 1: honest broker who asked fair questions. I also remember being
Speaker 1: super conscious of my facial expressions that I would not
Speaker 1: look at her skeptically or cock my head like a
Speaker 1: dog hearing a high pitched noise. I wasn't going to
Speaker 1: do anything that might convey a sense of judging her
Speaker 1: or being patronizing or reacting to anything she said. So
Speaker 1: I really was intent on being completely expressionless. I remember
Speaker 1: we spent three or four days in the den of
Speaker 1: your apartment in New York. You called this place the
Speaker 1: Red Room, which because it was painted red. Maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit of a red Room of Pain theme for
Speaker 1: you anyway, for me for sure. Anyway, we were trying
Speaker 1: to read everything Palin had ever said or written. We
Speaker 1: were trying to figure out what hadn't been asked of
Speaker 1: her before. And you must have read what hundreds of articles,
Speaker 1: including some from Alaska newspapers. Oh my god, I remember
Speaker 1: doing nexus searches of local Alaska articles back when she
Speaker 1: was mayor of was Silla. My god, you're nothing if
Speaker 1: not thorough. I remember. We also tried to put you
Speaker 1: in touch with the smartest people we could find. That's right.
Speaker 1: I called a number of former top government and officials,
Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans because I wanted to find out what
Speaker 1: they thought I should ask. And the best advice I
Speaker 1: think I got was from former Secretary of State Madeline Albright,
Speaker 1: who said, just let her talk because people don't know
Speaker 1: her and people don't know what she believes. And I
Speaker 1: thought that was very good advice. So, while we were
Speaker 1: in the Red Room prepping our side of the interview,
Speaker 1: across New York City, Nicole Wallace was working with Sarah Palin.
Speaker 1: I went to brief for the night before at a
Speaker 1: hotel and I remember walking down the street with my
Speaker 1: bag and it was like rumbling over the cracks, and
Speaker 1: and her press aids walked out like shaking their heads,
Speaker 1: looking shell shocked. I said, how to go. They said,
Speaker 1: not good, good luck, And that left me along with her.
Speaker 1: And she carried around the stack of cards like almost
Speaker 1: eight inches tall, with all these things that she was
Speaker 1: trying to memorize on them, and I said, give me
Speaker 1: the cards, and I said, let's just talk. And I
Speaker 1: tried talking her through. You know, she hadn't really answered
Speaker 1: many questions about social issues, she hadn't answered many questions
Speaker 1: about Hillary. She she had said some sort of interesting
Speaker 1: and not fully formed things about Russia. Because this really
Speaker 1: was the focus of this first interview was really foreign policy,
Speaker 1: because it was following her visit at the u N
Speaker 1: talking to world leaders. I mean, it was an opportunity
Speaker 1: for her to sort of clean up some of the
Speaker 1: things she'd said about Russia, and so so I remember
Speaker 1: trying to brief her and she was just blank. I
Speaker 1: think she was tapped out. I think she was drained.
Speaker 1: She she was on a plane, and so she was
Speaker 1: watching the coverage of herself incessantly in a loop and
Speaker 1: it was in her head. She was rattled. And so
Speaker 1: I remember the night before trying to get her to
Speaker 1: focus on the interview. I had no luck briefing her
Speaker 1: on any of the foreign policy stuff. John at that
Speaker 1: point was really concerned about Putin and Russia. UM, so
Speaker 1: I think that got in her head in a weird way.
Speaker 1: She ended up saying something to you about Russia poconists
Speaker 1: in the eye or somethingwhere it is from Alaska that
Speaker 1: we send those out to make sure that and I
Speaker 1: is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because
Speaker 1: they are right there, they are right next to um
Speaker 1: to our state uh PTSD. The evening before she was
Speaker 1: essentially catatonic. That morning of the interview. She was throwing
Speaker 1: her clothes around the room, throwing hangars at people, scrubbing
Speaker 1: makeup off her face, in a in a state of
Speaker 1: real distress, incredibly cruel, mean, vicious personal allegend, conspiracies attacks,
Speaker 1: everyone is out together. And and that was before the interview, right,
Speaker 1: and they said, you know, what, what are we gonna?
Speaker 1: What are we gonna do? You know? Was she ready
Speaker 1: to do this? And kind of what's what's the choice? Right?
Speaker 1: What's the choice? I don't know that we should have
Speaker 1: canceled it or or not. So obviously they didn't cancel Katie,
Speaker 1: what do you remember about the day of the first
Speaker 1: interview about meeting Sarah Palin? I think I first met
Speaker 1: her Brian when she was coming out of her hotel room,
Speaker 1: and she was quite beautiful, very dynamic, very warm, and
Speaker 1: seemed to be pretty relaxed. I remember she was really
Speaker 1: friendly with a number of the crew guys, and you
Speaker 1: and I could name a lot of politicians who aren't
Speaker 1: that friendly with the crew. So I remember being impressed
Speaker 1: by that. Oh and one other thing we should mention.
Speaker 1: The first interview was supposed to be about foreign policy,
Speaker 1: but at that time the economy was entering the worst
Speaker 1: financial crisis since the Great Depression. It was a manic
Speaker 1: Monday in the financial market. Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy,
Speaker 1: breaking news here. Stocks all around the world are taking
Speaker 1: because of the crisis on Wall Street. So of course
Speaker 1: I had to ask a question about that. You've said,
Speaker 1: quote John McCain will reform the way Wall Street does
Speaker 1: business other than supporting stricter regulations of Fannie Mae and
Speaker 1: Freddie mac two years ago, can you give us any
Speaker 1: more examples of his leading the charge for more oversight.
Speaker 1: I think that the example that you just cided with
Speaker 1: his warnings two years ago about Fannie and Freddie, that
Speaker 1: that's paramount. That's more than a heck of a lot
Speaker 1: of other senators and representatives did for us. But he's
Speaker 1: been in Congress for twenty six years, he's been chairman
Speaker 1: of the powerful Commerce Committee, and he is almost always
Speaker 1: cited with less regulation, not more. He's also known as
Speaker 1: the Maverick, though taken shots from his own party and
Speaker 1: certainly taken shots from the other party trying to get
Speaker 1: people to understand what he's been talking about the need
Speaker 1: to reform government. I'm just gonna ask you one more
Speaker 1: time not to belabor the point specific examples in his
Speaker 1: twenty six years of pushing for more regulations. I'll try
Speaker 1: to find you someone. I'll bring him to you. She
Speaker 1: just looks so unsure, Like if if you have bravado
Speaker 1: about your ignorance, that's one thing to the voter. But
Speaker 1: if you look as rattled by your ignorance as she
Speaker 1: made me feel about her ignorance, it reads his instability.
Speaker 1: And I thought that's what she displayed with you, Katie,
Speaker 1: as you watched Sarah Palin's struggle, what were you thinking about? Well,
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but feel sorry for her. Obviously she
Speaker 1: was out of her depth when it came to a
Speaker 1: lot of important policy issues, and you'd have to have
Speaker 1: ice water running through your veins if you didn't feel
Speaker 1: some compassion for her. But then, as if I was
Speaker 1: going through the stages of grief, I got a little
Speaker 1: angry at John McCain and questioned his judgment and why
Speaker 1: he picked somebody who was clearly not ready for prime time.
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. During the interview, I was sitting next
Speaker 1: to a press aide for the McCain campaign and he
Speaker 1: was texting someone and I was close enough that I
Speaker 1: could actually see the screen of his BlackBerry. He was texting,
Speaker 1: this is a disaster, and there was actually Katie a
Speaker 1: more colorful word before disaster. But I'm too much reproved
Speaker 1: to repeat it on the show. But go ahead, Brian,
Speaker 1: Let's just say it rhymes with ducking Katie. And I
Speaker 1: went straight from the interview with you and her to
Speaker 1: McCain's hotwe room and I said, I need you to
Speaker 1: call her, and he said why, I said, just call her.
Speaker 1: Until her SI a good job with Katie and he
Speaker 1: said did she? I said, I don't think so. And
Speaker 1: he said to Katie Live, I go, yeah, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: not fail it off the news do it, And in
Speaker 1: fact he did. McCain canceled on David Letterman and went
Speaker 1: on the Evening News to talk about his decision to
Speaker 1: temporarily suspend his campaign. And by the way, David Letterman
Speaker 1: was none too pleased about this and spent a good
Speaker 1: nine minutes railing about it on his show. But he
Speaker 1: had to cancel the show because he's suspending his campaign
Speaker 1: because the economy is exploding. So the first interview ends.
Speaker 1: Everyone knows it was a disaster for Sarah Palin, but
Speaker 1: there was another interview scheduled and Katie you recently asked
Speaker 1: Steve Schmidt about their decision then to go ahead with it.
Speaker 1: Why did you agree to let her do that second interview? Well,
Speaker 1: because if you don't do the second interview and have
Speaker 1: any recovery from the from the first one, then the
Speaker 1: first one is cemented in there. Right, is just like
Speaker 1: when Rocky fought Mr T and Rocky three and got
Speaker 1: his ass kicked? Right? Is there how to be a rematch,
Speaker 1: and the way you dealt with the first one was
Speaker 1: by winning the rematch in the second one with a
Speaker 1: competent performance, Katie, I love the Rocky three comparison. I
Speaker 1: guess that makes you Mr T to whom you're often compared,
Speaker 1: pity the fool. So Palin gets back in the ring
Speaker 1: ding ding ding nice and in this round there is
Speaker 1: perhaps the most famous exchange of all. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: everyone asked me about this moment. If they remember a
Speaker 1: question from the interview, it's this one. It was during
Speaker 1: a walk and talk following a rally in Ohio. We
Speaker 1: were just actually getting b roll of the two of us.
Speaker 1: She had already done one interview, and I could tell
Speaker 1: she was getting pretty sick of me. She seemed to
Speaker 1: have such strong views. I wanted to know where they
Speaker 1: came from, so I asked her what she read and
Speaker 1: when it comes to establishing your worldview, I was curious
Speaker 1: what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you
Speaker 1: were tapped for this to stay informed and to understand
Speaker 1: I've wrote most of them again with a great appreciation
Speaker 1: for the press, for the media like well Coming specifically,
Speaker 1: I'm curious that you um all of them, any of
Speaker 1: them that have been in front of me over all
Speaker 1: these years. Um, I have. I have a vast variety
Speaker 1: of sources where we get to our news to Alaska
Speaker 1: isn't a foreign country where it's kind of suggested it
Speaker 1: seems like, Wow, how could you keep in touch with
Speaker 1: with the rest of Washington. Do you see me be
Speaker 1: thinking and doing when you live up there in Alaska?
Speaker 1: Believe me, Alaska is like a microcosm of America. And
Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that earlier that day we saw
Speaker 1: Sarah Palin on her campaign plane reading a print copy
Speaker 1: of The New York Times, so I think at least
Speaker 1: occasionally she read newspapers. What I still can't figure out
Speaker 1: is why didn't she just tell the truth? Watching the
Speaker 1: fallout from this interview was unlike anything I'd ever experienced
Speaker 1: in years in the business. I mean, I knew we
Speaker 1: had something big when we finished that first taping, but
Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine just how big it would become. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: the interviews sparked a really serious conversation in the media
Speaker 1: and among voters about whether Sarah Palin was qualified to
Speaker 1: be vice president and whether the McCain campaign had truly
Speaker 1: done its diligence in vetting Sarah Palin. Here's Steve Schmidt again.
Speaker 1: If you're the governor of the state, my assumption was
Speaker 1: you had a aptitude or a like of reading history,
Speaker 1: government college policy, so you believed going and there was
Speaker 1: a certain threshold of knowledge that she had to possess
Speaker 1: as a governor of So you never said, do you
Speaker 1: know where a rock is? Do you know what happened
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan? Do you know what a credit to false swop? Hm?
Speaker 1: Do you understand the U? S? Tax system? And the
Speaker 1: answer is no to any of it. But you know,
Speaker 1: I believe that she likely was somewhere in the mean
Speaker 1: of basic knowledge as someone who's been around a lot
Speaker 1: of politicians and help prep them. Um I ran I
Speaker 1: ran two Supreme Court confirmations. Was John Roberts and Sam
Speaker 1: Alito ready for those hearings on day one? Hell? No, right,
Speaker 1: But go through the process and you get there. Again,
Speaker 1: the assumption is that there's a baseline there, and it
Speaker 1: was a terrible assumption. And you know, and I tend
Speaker 1: to ten years later not make assumptions about anything. Now,
Speaker 1: how could she be governor of Alaska and be so
Speaker 1: ignorant on so many issues. Why Jeffrey Dahmer people? I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I asked Frank Lentz about whether Palin
Speaker 1: was qualified, and he said, being a candidate isn't all
Speaker 1: about understanding policy. I think that having a real understanding
Speaker 1: of people and their hopes and fears is as important
Speaker 1: as being smart and intellectual. And I'll give you a
Speaker 1: comparison Jimmy Carter. I don't. I think Jimmy Carter was
Speaker 1: not a good president, and arguably intellectually, he is one
Speaker 1: of the smartest we've had in our lifetime, but he
Speaker 1: had no real understanding, even though that's the essence that
Speaker 1: he gave off. I'm a peanut farmer, I'll know he wasn't.
Speaker 1: And I don't believe he really understood how people, how
Speaker 1: they related, and how they understood, which is why he
Speaker 1: gave so many speeches that nobody understood. But I think
Speaker 1: that that is an example of someone who did not
Speaker 1: understand the country that he wished to represent. And I
Speaker 1: do believe that Sarah Palin had a better understanding of
Speaker 1: who we were as people, even though she's from Alaska.
Speaker 1: Does she know policy? Know? Does she know the details
Speaker 1: behind this stuff? I don't think so, but I think
Speaker 1: she understood and understands who we are as a country.
Speaker 1: That really depends how you define who we are as
Speaker 1: a country. I think she understood some Americans, not all Americans,
Speaker 1: namely the Republican base, and Palin was picked in large
Speaker 1: part because of fear of alienating that base, which was
Speaker 1: of course a preview of their growing power in our politics.
Speaker 1: She was also painfully for the McCain campaign a stark
Speaker 1: contrast with their country first all about experience messaging. She
Speaker 1: was not a knowledgeable experience politician. Meanwhile, I think when
Speaker 1: she was tapped Brian there were a lot of undecided
Speaker 1: its swing voters who who really hadn't figured out if
Speaker 1: they could support Barack Obama, perhaps feeling he was not
Speaker 1: experienced enough, but weren't convinced they wanted John McCain either.
Speaker 1: When Sarah Palin performed poorly during that interview, I think
Speaker 1: it not only cast her in a bad light, but
Speaker 1: it made many voters question John McCain's judgment. Before we go,
Speaker 1: I want to play one more thing, Nicole Wallace told
Speaker 1: us Sarah Palin probably should have been tweeting and talking
Speaker 1: to Fox News. I mean it worked for Donald Trump
Speaker 1: eight years later. I don't really think Sarah Palin could
Speaker 1: have avoided network news anchors in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: In fact, it almost seems quaint to think that campaign
Speaker 1: managers ten years ago really thought it was imperative for
Speaker 1: candidates to be interviewed by a network news anchor, to
Speaker 1: be challenged. But today not so much, Brian, Yeah, today,
Speaker 1: why subject yourself to challenging questions and potentially a bad
Speaker 1: performance when you could just go to a friendly outlet,
Speaker 1: or not go to any outlet at all, just communicate
Speaker 1: directly to your supporters. So clearly we have entered a
Speaker 1: world where tough interviews might not matter, or might not
Speaker 1: even happen at all. Does this mean I'm not needed, Brian, Well,
Speaker 1: you're definitely needed next week, Katie, for part two of
Speaker 1: our special documentary That's Right, when Sarah goes rogue, McCain
Speaker 1: heads south, and Donald Trump picks up the pieces. A
Speaker 1: big thank you to our producers, Stephen Valentino and the
Speaker 1: right Reverend John Delore, and thank you, of course to
Speaker 1: our whole team at Stitcher. That's johnnah Palmer, Nora, Richie Gared, O'Connell,
Speaker 1: Chris Bannon, many many others. Thanks also to Invisible Studios
Speaker 1: and the Earwolf Studios in l A and Script Studios
Speaker 1: in d C. They all helped out with recordings for
Speaker 1: this episode. And finally thanks to Beth de Moz, my
Speaker 1: phenomenal assistant who also keeps me fed, Very Wharton and
Speaker 1: Julia Lewis, who handles all things social media for me.
Speaker 1: Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. Katie Couric and I
Speaker 1: are the show's executive producers. You'll find Katie all over
Speaker 1: social media if you search Katie Current, especially Instagram, and
Speaker 1: I tweet from at Goldsmith b We'll be back next
Speaker 1: week for the second and final episode. Talk to you then,
Speaker 1: and thanks so much for listening.