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Speaker 1: Hi guys, let me share something new with you from

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Speaker 1: The Prosecutors podcast. In this episode, Brett and Alice take

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Speaker 1: us deep, deep, deep into the case of Boston copp

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Speaker 1: John O'Keefe. His death in the middle of a blizzard

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Speaker 1: leads to shocking accusations against his girlfriend Karen Reid. Was

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Speaker 1: it a frame job or a deadly romance? Listen to

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Speaker 1: part one of The Prosecutors nine part series. If you

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Speaker 1: like it, listen and follow The Prosecutors. They're on all

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Speaker 1: major audio platforms. Don't miss a single episode. It's awesome

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Speaker 1: The Prosecutors.

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Speaker 2: I'm Brett and I'm Alice, and.

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Speaker 3: We are the Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, When a

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Speaker 3: Boston police officer is found dead in the snow, an

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Speaker 3: apparent victim of a hit and run, suspicion fell on

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Speaker 3: his girlfriend, Karen Reid.

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Speaker 4: But did she do it? Or was she framed?

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Speaker 3: Hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors.

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Speaker 3: I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my divisive

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Speaker 3: co host Alice.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Well there you go. At least it wasn't homely.

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Speaker 2: That's all I have to say. That would be divisive,

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Speaker 2: That would be divisive. But maybe I'm not the divisive one.

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Speaker 2: But boy, oh boy, is this case divisive? I will

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Speaker 2: confess Sprett. When this case started going to trial very recently,

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Speaker 2: everyone was asking us our opinions, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we cover a lot of cases we prosecuted.

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Speaker 2: I did, you'd do a lot of cases. I read

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Speaker 2: about a lot of cases, and upon first glance, I

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Speaker 2: was like, why is everyone focusing on this particular case.

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Speaker 2: It did not strike my fancy to begin with, which

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Speaker 2: is why we didn't cover it in real time. But

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Speaker 2: because we listen to you guys, and because it has

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Speaker 2: become so divisive, and are we about to uncover some

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Speaker 2: massive conspiracy or are we going to be cold water prosecutors?

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Speaker 2: This is going to be divisive. I think whichever way

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Speaker 2: we come out on this, there will be people who

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Speaker 2: will have lots of opinions on it. And I'm here

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Speaker 2: for it.

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Speaker 3: And I'll say this, I'm actually kind of glad we

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Speaker 3: didn't cover it before because going into the trial, I

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Speaker 3: didn't really know a whole lot about it. I need

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Speaker 3: sort of the basic storyline. I knew that Karen Reid

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Speaker 3: was accused of murdering her boyfriend, wasn't even really sure

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Speaker 3: how she was accused of doing that. I knew that

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Speaker 3: there was a lot of craziness in the media and online.

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Speaker 3: I knew that at least one blogger had been charged

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Speaker 3: with a bunch of felonies for possibly committing witness intimidation

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Speaker 3: and all sorts of other stuff, But we sort of

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Speaker 3: dodged I think the drama that maybe you've seen with Delpha.

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Speaker 3: One problem with being with Delphi this whole time is

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Speaker 3: this whole run up to the trial in Delphi has

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Speaker 3: just been It has been wild, and I think people

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Speaker 3: who followed this case from the beginning have experienced a

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Speaker 3: very similar roller coaster with a Karen Reid case. But

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Speaker 3: we're coming into it without a whole lot of that baggage.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say, and we're going to look at

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Speaker 3: this case through the lens of the trial. We're going

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Speaker 3: to do this the way we did the murder case,

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Speaker 3: which was another one that I didn't know a whole

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Speaker 3: lot about until he did the trial, the Derek Chauvin case.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think those are the two cases that

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Speaker 3: we sort of covered in real time. As we record

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Speaker 3: this episode. The trial is still ongoing. It is an

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Speaker 3: incredibly long trial. We could do illegal briefs on the

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Speaker 3: trial because it's very weird the way they're doing it. Though,

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Speaker 3: I will just say, guys, staycases. Sometimes you see this.

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Speaker 3: There's the young Thug case I think that's his name. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: I'm not very hip in Atlanta. That's been going on

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Speaker 3: for forever and has like all these weird breaks. In

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Speaker 3: this case, most days they're do in half days and

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Speaker 3: only doing trial through like noon, and then they break

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Speaker 3: for the day, and sometimes they have trial like one

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Speaker 3: or two days a week, and then we'll have trial.

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Speaker 3: So it's been going on for a long time. At

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Speaker 3: this point, we're far enough along that we hope that

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Speaker 3: we can finish sort of either as the trial is

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Speaker 3: finishing or after it's finishing and not sort of catch

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Speaker 3: up and not be able to do this. But given

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Speaker 3: that we released the weekly, I think we'll be fine

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Speaker 3: at this point. But it's been going on for a while.

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Speaker 3: In the commonwealth's case, because this is in Massachusetts, has

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Speaker 3: a lot of witnesses and there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: people involved in this story, and that's part of what

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Speaker 3: makes it so interesting because a lot of these people

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Speaker 3: are accused of being part of a cover up or

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Speaker 3: a conspiracy to frame Karen Reid for the murder of

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Speaker 3: John O'Keefe. And that is not an exaggeration. I'm not

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Speaker 3: using hyperbole here as you're going to see probably today

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Speaker 3: because we'll almost certainly maybe get to the opening statements,

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Speaker 3: the defense's opening statement, the very first words out of

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Speaker 3: their mouths, the very first thing the jury hears from

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Speaker 3: the defense is that Karen Reid was framed. And that

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Speaker 3: is such a strong claim. It's not just we're going

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Speaker 3: to put forward evidence that maybe she was framed. Maybe

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Speaker 3: that's one possibility, but they are going all in on

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Speaker 3: this idea of as we've said before, the best story

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Speaker 3: wins in creating a story and selling out to try

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Speaker 3: and convince the jury that not only is there a

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Speaker 3: reasonable doubt, but that she was framed for this crime.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, those are some bold words, you know. When we

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Speaker 2: started researching this case to cover it, the first thing

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Speaker 2: I did was to actually just pull up the opening

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Speaker 2: statements and the defense one I listened to first because

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Speaker 2: I want to hear what their defense was. And when

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Speaker 2: the first words out of the Defense Council's mouth was

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid was framed, I kind of gasped a little

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Speaker 2: bit because I didn't know anything about this case. Because

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Speaker 2: we've talked a lot about the best story wins, we've

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Speaker 2: also talked about how the defense doesn't have the burden

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Speaker 2: to tell you another story. They just have to show

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Speaker 2: that there's reasonable doubt not to convict their client. To

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Speaker 2: say that Karen Reid was framed and not just framed

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Speaker 2: by anybody framed by the police is a very tall

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Speaker 2: order to fulfill, especially in your opening statement. Those of

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Speaker 2: you who followed us for a while know that the

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Speaker 2: difference between opening statement and closing statements is that in

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Speaker 2: opening you're not supposed to argue. You're supposed to tell

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Speaker 2: them what they will expect to hear. In evidence, it's

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Speaker 2: not supposed to be our youmentative. Closing arguments are where

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Speaker 2: you get to take your spin on the evidence that's

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Speaker 2: been presented and make your best argument. I'm from those

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Speaker 2: pieces of evidence and to state affirmatively from the beginning

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Speaker 2: she was framed is a bold move, not one that

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Speaker 2: you see often.

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Speaker 3: So let's go ahead and dive into the story here.

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Speaker 3: For those of you who like me, have been living

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Speaker 3: under a rock and didn't really know what this case

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Speaker 3: was about, or maybe you're blessed to live in a

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Speaker 3: different country where this case has not been all on

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Speaker 3: the headlines. I mean, if you live in Boston right now.

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Speaker 3: My favorite part about this case, by the way, is

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Speaker 3: we're going to Boston. I'm very excited to go back

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Speaker 3: to Boston, to go home to Boston, my second home,

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Speaker 3: my first home in my heart.

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Speaker 2: Are you going to say all the names right?

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Speaker 3: You know, actually I probably can say all the names right, but.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 3: I looked up a lot.

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Speaker 2: There's like a Boston Pedia where you get to it's

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Speaker 2: a YouTube page where you get to put in all

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Speaker 2: the different towns and things and they tell you how

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Speaker 2: to say it. I was starting not anyways, over got Worcester.

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Speaker 3: Not Worcester. Okay. So there was nothing particularly interesting about

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Speaker 3: Karen Rey's life, it seems like to me. Up until

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Speaker 3: January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. She was a forty

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Speaker 3: one year old financial analyst and a lecturer at Bentley University,

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Speaker 3: and she had met a man named John O'Keefe in

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Speaker 3: her younger years. They lost touch, you know, they dated

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Speaker 3: for a little while, they lost touch, but then in

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Speaker 3: the middle of the pandemic. Like so many of us,

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Speaker 3: they reconnected. Sort of interesting how the distance and the

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Speaker 3: break in your life could bring back old relationships and

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Speaker 3: they hit it off. John was a Boston police officer,

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Speaker 3: a sixteen year veteran of the force. Although he didn't

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Speaker 3: have any children of his own, the forty six year

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Speaker 3: old became the guardian of his niece and nephew, whose

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Speaker 3: fourteen year old niece and eleven year old nephew when

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Speaker 3: he died when his sister died in twenty thirteen and

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Speaker 3: her husband died shortly thereafter, which let me just go

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Speaker 3: ahead and say, the tragedy that those kids have gone through,

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Speaker 3: like I can't even imagine. And a lot of things

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Speaker 3: get lost in the shuffle in this case, but man,

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Speaker 3: and take a moment and say a prayer for those kids,

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Speaker 3: because to lose their parents the way they did, and

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Speaker 3: then they have John who steps in and fills that role,

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Speaker 3: and I think that says a lot about him and

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Speaker 3: who he was. But then to lose him, and to

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Speaker 3: lose him like this, and now to be subjected to

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Speaker 3: this and eventually to be witnesses for the commonwealth in

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Speaker 3: this case, I can't imagine.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, that's I mean, there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: heartbreaking things about this case, but he's really raised his

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Speaker 2: niece and nephew since they were babies, since his sister

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Speaker 2: and her husband passed away, and he was really their

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Speaker 2: father for all intents and purposes, and they are still

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Speaker 2: young here. They'll come into play throughout this trial. You'll

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Speaker 2: see they are privy to the relationship and they'll have

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Speaker 2: things to say about it. But I think he has

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Speaker 2: another brother who is also the guardian now really the

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Speaker 2: soul guardian. But the amount of loss this family has

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Speaker 2: gone through, especially these young children who are still miners,

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Speaker 2: is not to be lost in all of this, especially

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Speaker 2: because remember when we talk about conspiracies, we talk about

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Speaker 2: wild theories. Whether they're rooted in truth or not, we're

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Speaker 2: not getting into that yet. They have real effects on

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Speaker 2: real people, and in this case, they have real effects

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Speaker 2: on miners as well.

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Speaker 3: So depending on who you asked, the relationship between Read

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Speaker 3: and O'Keefe was at times loving and at times rocky,

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Speaker 3: probably not unlike most relationships. Frankly, there were some accusations

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Speaker 3: of infidelity at various points in time. The two were

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Speaker 3: known to fight with some frequency, though some of Reed's friends,

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Speaker 3: and frankly even some of John's friends would dispute the

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Speaker 3: allegations that the two weren't generally happy together. Like every

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Speaker 3: case where you have a relationship that ends with someone dead,

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Speaker 3: a lot of times things can get blown out of proportion.

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Speaker 3: You'll have one person saying either way, one person saying

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Speaker 3: they were the most loving couple ever, and somebody else

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Speaker 3: is like, no, they fought all the time, they hated

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Speaker 3: each other, and then other people here are more in

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Speaker 3: the middle with now they were kind of normal, They

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Speaker 3: loved each other most of the time, and they fault

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Speaker 3: other times. Obviously, all this will be important as we're

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Speaker 3: trying to figure out exactly what happened to John o'keef,

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Speaker 3: and all of this would come to ahead on January

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Speaker 3: twenty ninth, twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Now, before we dive into the timeline as we typically do,

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Speaker 2: we're going to do something we don't do in all

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Speaker 2: our cases, but I think this case calls for it,

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Speaker 2: and that's to introduce kind of the cast of characters

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Speaker 2: that you're going to learn about hear from here about

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Speaker 2: in this trial, and there's a lot of them. Keep

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Speaker 2: this in mind because the kind of allegation of Karen

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Speaker 2: Reid being framed involves a lot of people. So if

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Speaker 2: you can remember to come back to this episode, if

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Speaker 2: you ever get lost to the characters are, we hope

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Speaker 2: to give you kind of a contents of who the

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Speaker 2: players are. First, you've heard of John O'Keeffe. He is

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Speaker 2: the victim and he's Karen Reid's longtime boyfriend. He's been

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Speaker 2: described as a good and decent man who is a

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Speaker 2: dedicated cop and generally well loved by the people in

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Speaker 2: his community. Not really someone that people had beef with

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Speaker 2: or he himself wasn't really a divisive person. He was

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Speaker 2: well liked by the people he worked with and also

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Speaker 2: his family and his community.

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Speaker 3: One of the things about this case it's interesting is

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Speaker 3: pretty much everyone agrees that John's a good guy. Like

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Speaker 3: the DEFENSI often call him this good man, say things

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Speaker 3: like that. But you have to build some sort of

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Speaker 3: story about what happened here. Remember, I think this is

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Speaker 3: important to remember. We're going to come back to this.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna get sick of me saying this. The theory

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Speaker 3: here in this trial is either that Karen Reid hit

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Speaker 3: John with her car and left him to die in

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Speaker 3: the snow or John one was involved in some sort

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Speaker 3: of altercation with basically everyone we're going to tell you

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Speaker 3: about here, and anyone he wasn't involved in an altercation

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Speaker 3: with is involved in the cover up of that fact.

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Speaker 3: So it's funny because on the one hand, the States

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Speaker 3: trying to show how rocky this relationship was and how

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Speaker 3: they fought all the time, and you're going to hear

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Speaker 3: testimony through us unless you're watching the trial, actually no,

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Speaker 3: they were kind of fine. And then on the other hand,

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Speaker 3: the defenses going to try and convince you that this

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Speaker 3: group of people decided, either in a rage or maybe

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Speaker 3: planning ahead, to attack John so viciously that he would die,

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Speaker 3: And then you've got to kind of figure out why

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Speaker 3: would they do that, And much like with the relationship

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Speaker 3: between Reed and John, you start hearing the testimony, you're

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Speaker 3: kind of like, not really seem like anybody disliked this guy.

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Speaker 3: So there's motive here is one of those things that

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Speaker 3: is I think both sides are striving to prove motive.

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Speaker 3: That's one thing that's fascinating about this case because it's

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Speaker 3: just not your typical defense case. Both sides are trying

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Speaker 3: to show motive and they're struggling to do so.

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Speaker 2: Karen read the subject that we've been talking about. She's

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Speaker 2: the one in trial she's accused of hitting John with

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Speaker 2: her car. Karen had been, as we said, in a

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Speaker 2: long term relationship with John, and as we will hear

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Speaker 2: more and more about they either had this fantastic relationship

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Speaker 2: or they were on the rocks. And it depends on

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Speaker 2: who you ask and listen to all the different testimony

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Speaker 2: as we start to go through it, because honestly, it

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Speaker 2: sounds like a lot of relationships, right. It probably wasn't

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Speaker 2: completely black or white. It was somewhere on the spectrum

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Speaker 2: as most relationships are. Brian Albert so Brian Albert owned

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Speaker 2: the home where people gathered the night of John's death.

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Speaker 2: John would be found in the yard of his home

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Speaker 2: near the curb in the far corner. Brian is a

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Speaker 2: retired Boston Police officer and he had served on the

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Speaker 2: force with John. Kevin Albert is Brian's brother and he's

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Speaker 2: a Canton police officer and detective Tim Albert he's another

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Speaker 2: one of the Albert brothers, so related to Brian and Kevin,

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Speaker 2: and he lives across the street from the Canton Police department.

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Speaker 3: And if you're already picking up on this, there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of cops involved in this case, and that's

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Speaker 3: one reason the police conspiracy angle has come up. We're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about a lot of police officers, including

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Speaker 3: the victim, but also pretty much everyone else who's involved.

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Speaker 3: Not surprisingly, the victim who's a cop, knows a lot

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Speaker 3: of cops and his friends with a lot of cops,

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Speaker 3: And like most families in the Northeast, being a cop

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Speaker 3: runs in the family. So the Albert family, for instance,

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Speaker 3: has a lot of police officers in it and they

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Speaker 3: know a lot of police officers. So you're going to

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Speaker 3: hear about a lot of police officers through this as

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Speaker 3: we talk about the case. It's Chris Albert, who wasn't

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Speaker 3: a cop, but he was another of the Albert brothers.

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Speaker 3: He actually owns a pizza shop often visited by John

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Speaker 3: and I guess it's pretty popular. He's on there for

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Speaker 3: like twenty something years. He and John, he says, we're friends.

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Speaker 3: And he also is a town selectman in Canton, Massachusetts,

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Speaker 3: which is the city, the town where all of this

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Speaker 3: is going to take place. Canton, by the way, for

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Speaker 3: those of you who don't know, is fifteen miles south

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Speaker 3: of Boston. It's part of the Boston metropolitan area. They

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Speaker 3: gets south, it's sort of in the Boston Greater metropolitan area.

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Speaker 3: If you've lived in Boston, you know, like Braintree, Cambridge,

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Speaker 3: like all those places. Are these little towns that are

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Speaker 3: you know, if Boston is the hub, all these other

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Speaker 3: towns are on the wheel and they all surround Boston

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Speaker 3: and Boston in a way that frankly, you don't see

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Speaker 3: a lot of places. Boston dominates New England like nothing else.

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Speaker 3: I mean, people in Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, obviously Massachusetts

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Speaker 3: are all about Boston and Boston is everything. And then

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Speaker 3: as you go south, it starts to transition into New York.

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Speaker 3: Providence Rhode Island has a little bit of a rivalry

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Speaker 3: with Boston, but whatever. Providence beautiful town by the way,

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Speaker 3: love it. But either way, So Canon is close to Boston.

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Speaker 3: So you've got some Canton police officers we've been talking

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Speaker 3: about John is a Boston police officer. Just a lot

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Speaker 3: of cops in this area and go Celtics. Okay, So

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Speaker 3: Brian Higgins. Higgins is friends with the Alberts and he

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Speaker 3: is an ATF agent with an office at the Canton

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Speaker 3: Police Department. He was reportedly at the home the night

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Speaker 3: of John's death. This is not unusual, by the way,

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Speaker 3: ATF agents work very closely with local police to prosecute

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Speaker 3: gun crime. Almost always, when you have a firearm, machine gun, whatever,

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Speaker 3: it's almost always going to be discovered initially by local police,

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Speaker 3: who are then going to work with ATF to prosecute

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Speaker 3: that case federally. So it's not unusual that Higgins would

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Speaker 3: have this close relationship with the Canton Police Department. Then

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Speaker 3: you have Brian Albert Junior Junior, so he is not

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Speaker 3: surprisingly Brian Albert's son, and in fact, it was his

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Speaker 3: birthday the day John died, and there were people over

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Speaker 3: at the Albert's house celebrating his birthday, including Colin Albert.

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Speaker 3: Colin Albert is Chris Albert's son. Colin was over at

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Speaker 3: Brian Albert's home earlier in the evening celebrating Brian Junior's birthday.

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Speaker 3: Colin Albert, by the way, is one of the people

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Speaker 3: that the defense has posited as a possible attacker of John,

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Speaker 3: so he is somebody they point to is a possible

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Speaker 3: hot head, a bully that could have gotten into it

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Speaker 3: with John, got into a fight with John fatally injured him,

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Speaker 3: and then the rest of the Albert family has to

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Speaker 3: cover it up. So his presence there and how long

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Speaker 3: he was there will become important in the case.

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Speaker 2: So so far, with this cast of characters, if you're

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Speaker 2: following along, it's a big family gathering, and they're close

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Speaker 2: family friends essentially, and they all live together, work together,

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Speaker 2: eat together, right pizza shop owner, They live near the

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Speaker 2: Canton Police Department, they've served together. They're all different kind

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Speaker 2: of law enforcement officers in these towns you work across,

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Speaker 2: whether it's Canton or Boston or atf they hang out

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Speaker 2: together a lot. But so far we're hearing about nothing

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Speaker 2: unusual in terms of the people who are together.

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Speaker 3: So another important player in this case is Chloe Albert.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'll say. Chloe is a German shepherd and

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Speaker 3: according to the defense, Chloe may have attacked John while

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Speaker 3: he was over at the Alberts home, could be responsible

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Speaker 3: for some of the injuries that John suffered, could have

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Speaker 3: been partially responsible for his death. Chloe will be rehomed

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Speaker 3: by the Alberts a few months after John's death, which

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Speaker 3: obviously has led some people to speculate that the reason

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Speaker 3: for that once that the dog was vicious, couldn't be trusted,

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Speaker 3: had already killed one person, and you know, maybe was

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Speaker 3: gonna kill again. So they sent the dog, I think

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Speaker 3: to Vermont. I think is where the dog ended up.

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Speaker 2: By the way, having been a German Shepherd owner, it's

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Speaker 2: a real cheap shot to always go for the German shepherd, right.

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Speaker 2: The German Shepherds are typically police dogs. They are very smart. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: they're used as canines for police forces. And even if

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Speaker 2: they are the sweetest, most trained dogs, because they are

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Speaker 2: known to be canines and police force dogs and they

364
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 2: can be very powerful as canines, this will not be

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Speaker 2: the first time that a German Shepherd will be accused

366
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 2: of causing death to someone. We're not talking about a

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Speaker 2: little Yorky.

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Speaker 3: I was three of German shepherd tried to kill me.

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Speaker 3: I still very scars from that attack.

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Speaker 2: Having had a German Shepherd, they're terrifying.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Mine was like one hundred and twenty pounds and she

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Speaker 2: was lovable as I'll get out, but when she got

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Speaker 2: really excited, she would knock me over. Right, So these

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Speaker 2: are real, real things. But I'm also pointing to the

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Speaker 2: fact that this is a large German shepherd, and German

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Speaker 2: shepherds have been known to attack people in their job

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Speaker 2: as part of their profession and also when they are

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Speaker 2: not properly trained. Moving on, we have someone whose last

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Speaker 2: name is not Albert, but the show related to the

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Speaker 2: Albert family. Jennifer McCabe. McCabe is Brian Albert's sister in law,

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Speaker 2: his wife Nicole's sister, and she was out drinking with

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Speaker 2: the group the night that John died. She invited John

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Speaker 2: and Karen back to the Albert house and was with

385
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Speaker 2: Karen when John's body was found, so she's essentially one

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Speaker 2: of the first on the scene along with Karen. Michael Proctor,

387
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Speaker 2: he is the lead state police investigator on this case,

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Speaker 2: and it's come out that Proctor had known Chris Albert

389
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Speaker 2: for about fifteen years. It's been reported that Proctor is

390
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 2: currently under internal investigation for some undisclosed violation of department

391
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: policy That could literally be anything. It might be related

392
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Speaker 2: to this case, it might be completely unrelated to this case.

393
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 2: It might not exist at all. This is undisclosed, and

394
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 2: typically these types of things won't be disclosed until there

395
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 2: is a conclusion and a conclusion of finding usually wrongdoing,

396
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Speaker 2: because because if it's closed and there's nothing, then they

397
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Speaker 2: won't disclose anything.

398
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Speaker 3: I'm gonna go on Lemon's say it probably is related

399
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 3: to this case. Proctor is sort of your nightmare cop

400
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 3: if you're a prosecutor. He liked to send text messages

401
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 3: said really terrible things about the defendant, which have now

402
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 3: become part of this trial. And you know when you're

403
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 3: when you're a prosecutor and you see something like that,

404
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 3: you just want to bang your head against the table

405
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 3: because whether or not it has anything to do with

406
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 3: the case, it absolutely is going to be introduced by

407
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 3: the defense and it absolutely is going to make some

408
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 3: jurors shake their heads. So Michael Proctor, he is going

409
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 3: to come up a lot as we talk about this case.

410
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Speaker 2: Nearing the end of the list of cast of characters,

411
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Speaker 2: I think we'll add to it as the trial goes away.

412
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Speaker 2: Will there really are so many people that testified? I

413
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Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is a relatively short list for

414
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 2: the number of people who will testify, but this will

415
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Speaker 2: get you started on the trial. Kenneth Berkowitz. So, Kenneth

416
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: is now a retired Canton police chief and he found

417
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Speaker 2: a piece of broken tail light at the scene a

418
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Speaker 2: few days after John's death. Berkowitz also knew the Outberts

419
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: and had appeared at a fundraiser for Chris's political campaign.

420
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Speaker 2: Their kids played sports together and Chris called him a friend,

421
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: so they were close. By all accounts, their kids played together,

422
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: they knew each other. And then he of course finds

423
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: kind of a key piece of evidence that points towards

424
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Speaker 2: Karen's potential guilt in this case.

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Speaker 3: And as Al said, we could go on and on

426
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 3: and on with people in this case because everyone plays

427
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 3: an important role. I mean, ordinarily they're really only a

428
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Speaker 3: few key witnesses. Usually most witnesses are kind of non controversial.

429
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Speaker 3: They're just not controversial on either side. The prosecution puts

430
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Speaker 3: some monusort to set the scene, the defense may do

431
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 3: some minimal cross examination, but then that's it, right, and

432
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 3: then you move forward. In this case, so many people

433
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 3: are important because essentially what you're going to see here,

434
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 3: and we're about to get into the timeline, is you

435
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 3: have this man found outside in the cold during a blizzard.

436
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 3: He's got some sort of wounds. It's unclear exactly how

437
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 3: that happened. And as you're going to see in order

438
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 3: for this to work, you really need all three I'm

439
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: going to say, three of the important defense strategies to

440
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: come together. So, if you're a defense attorney and you're

441
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: defending somebody, there are a few different ways you can

442
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 3: attack a case. You can attack a case through incompetence.

443
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: You can say, look, the police are just incompetent. They

444
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 3: did a poor job securing the scene, they did a

445
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: poor job gathering evidence. They zeroed in on my client.

446
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: If only they looked a little harder, they would have

447
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: found all this evidence of someone else. Think of Leo's schofield. Right,

448
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 3: the police have those fingerprints in the car, but rather

449
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: than running them against known offenders in the area at

450
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 3: the time of the murder, they're so focused on Leo

451
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: they don't even think about it. And that's a problem. Right,

452
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 3: That's some deep tunnel vision and incompetence. That's one thing

453
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 3: you can say. Second thing, you can say, some other

454
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,959
Speaker 3: guy did it. There's somebody else who did it, and

455
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: they're the person who's responsible, and maybe they even acted

456
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 3: to make it look like my client is responsible. The

457
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: other thing you can say is the police framed me,

458
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: So this might be your sort of ad non sayed

459
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: type thing where the police have decided they've got to

460
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: solve this case. They've got to pin it on somebody.

461
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 3: They pick a target for whatever reason, and then they

462
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: begin to plant evidence to make it look like that

463
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: person is guilty. They pressure witnesses, they falsify physical evidence,

464
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 3: whatever to try and move this case forward. In this case,

465
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: you need all three of these. All three of these

466
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 3: things have to come together. The people who are not

467
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: involved in the conspiracy have to be incompetent, and the

468
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: people who killed John O'Keefe have to be working to

469
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 3: frame Karen Reid. At the same time, they have to

470
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 3: have allies in the police who are not only incompetent

471
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: and tunnel vision, but are actively framing Karen Reid by

472
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: doing things like planning evidence. We just talked about Chief Berkowitz.

473
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 3: You know, the theory here is he didn't find that

474
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 3: piece of taille. It was planted there, either by him

475
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: or someone else for him to find so that this

476
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 3: could work. Right. So all these things have to come together,

477
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: and that's why the cast of characters is so long,

478
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 3: because so many different people are involved, from the Canton

479
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 3: Fire Department to the police department, to the state police,

480
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 3: to the Alberts, to the McKay to the dog. They're

481
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 3: all in this together, and that's why it's important to

482
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 3: remember these names and hopefully you can keep them straight.

483
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: It is not easy to do. We're going to try

484
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 3: and keep remind you of who these people are as

485
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 3: we talk about them. But just know this is going

486
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: to be a little bit of a struggle. Is a

487
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 3: move through this. Okay, the timeline, so look, every case

488
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 3: we do, we want to orient you with a timeline.

489
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: So the way we've done this timelines, we kept it

490
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: pretty short and basically this is a high level timeline,

491
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 3: just to give you some general idea. It is based

492
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: on public reporting. A lot of it is based on

493
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 3: what the prosecution says they can prove, some of it

494
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 3: based on what the defense says. So just know that

495
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: we're going to give you this, but don't consider this gospel.

496
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: Don't get mad if we say something and then in

497
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: a week there's some testimony that undermines it. This is

498
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 3: just to give you a general idea of what happened

499
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: that day.

500
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: Remember trial still going on, So this happens where you

501
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: call witnesses to rebut you know what the prosecution says

502
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: or what the defense says, and so I expect that

503
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: this timeline may change as trial progresses.

504
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 3: So this is Friday, January twenty eighth, heading into Saturday,

505
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 3: the twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. So this is the

506
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: eve of a nor'easter is about to hit Boston. It's

507
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: gonna dump a couple feet of snow onto the city.

508
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 3: Everybody knows that. And so what do you do when

509
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 3: a nor'easter's coming? You go out and drink. There's nothing

510
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 3: better than drinking before a blizzard, because what are you

511
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 3: gonna do the next day? You're gonna lay around wait

512
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: on the blizzard to die down so you can dig

513
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 3: yourself out. This is a great thing to do. And

514
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 3: around seven point thirty, John, along with a group of

515
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 3: friends are going to go to a strip on Washington

516
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: Street in Kenton. Canton, as I said before, is a

517
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: suburb of Boston lying fifteen miles southwest of downtown. Canton

518
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 3: was named after Canton, China, because they thought it was antipodal.

519
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 3: I think it's the word to Canton, so they thought

520
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 3: it was literally like on the other side of the earth.

521
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: It is not. That's what they thought. Canton, China, by

522
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: the is now known as Guangzhou, which is a small

523
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: Chinese city of only twenty million people.

524
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: By the way, great pronunciation, not just of Canton, but

525
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: Canton is not how you say any Chinese. But Glonzo

526
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: is really good.

527
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: Do what I could so eight fifty one PM, Kiaren

528
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: is seen on video entering C. F. McCarthy's, a local pub.

529
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 3: According to prosecutors, Kiaren did what she would expect a

530
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 3: person to do at a bar. She drank. So, according

531
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: to prosecutors, at eight fifty eight, Karen is going to

532
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 3: get a drink from the bartender. It contains a clear

533
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: liquid with a lime in it. Obviously that could be water.

534
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: I have often gotten sparkling water with a lime in it.

535
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: There's gonna be test money about this that it was vodka.

536
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 3: But as the defense is going to point out, there's

537
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: no real way to know whether or not she's mixing,

538
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: you know, getting a vodkatonic and then getting a water,

539
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: and she's she's getting a lot of drinks. So nine

540
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: to fifteen, she's back for another drink, nine to twenty,

541
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: another drink, ninety three, another drink, nine fifty seven, another drink,

542
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: but this time she also gets a shot of clear

543
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: liquid that probably is not water. Ten twenty two, another drink.

544
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: So there are a lot of drinks happening here. The

545
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: exact number is hard to say because we don't know

546
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 3: exactly what she had, but a number of drinks. People

547
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: are having a good time, they're having some drinks. Everybody's

548
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: in a good mood. So far, nothing unusual has happened.

549
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: So at ten forty pm, John and Karen leave the bar.

550
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: Karen still has the last drink that she got at

551
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: ten twenty two with her. At ten fifty four, the

552
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: two head to the Waterfall Bar and Grill in Canton,

553
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: so they're kind of moving along the strip. At twelve

554
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: ten am, Karen and two other women leave through the

555
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: front door. John follows behind, carrying a drink. John and

556
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: Karen walk together towards Washington Street. After a night of drinking,

557
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: Karen did the thing that other people do after going

558
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: out to a bar. She drove right opposed to We

559
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: all know, you know, fet a drink. If you even

560
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: think you're buzz don't don't drive. Don't drink and drive.

561
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: We see all those signs everywhere, but in reality, the

562
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: number of people who do drink and drive who are

563
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: above the legal limit is astronomical this case.

564
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: Look, if there's one thing that we can say for certain,

565
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: I don't know if they can't in police department is corrupt,

566
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: the Boston Police Department is corrupt. But there's a lot

567
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 3: of people in mcanton and Boston Police Department who drink

568
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: and then drive. Weren't see a lot of that in

569
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 3: the and in.

570
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: The Boston area as why, which is also known for

571
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: drinking and drive. And remember this is January, which means

572
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 2: it's real cold. There's the northeaster, but generally Boston area

573
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: in January is incredibly cold. You don't want to be

574
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: standing outside waiting for an uber, especially when your car

575
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: is already on kind of like the busy street. You

576
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: don't have to figure out the next morning having to

577
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: come and get your car back. I'm not justifying drinking

578
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: and driving. I'm just telling you what people think about

579
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 2: in their heads and why they end up drinking and driving.

580
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: So Karen does just that. She gets in the car

581
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: and she drives, and the plan was to drive back

582
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: to the home of Brian Albert, another Boston cop. What

583
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: we talked about earlier where there was an after party planned.

584
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: At twelve fourteen am, John texts the group and he

585
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: says where to. There's a response in that text chain

586
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: and it says go to thirty four Fairview Road. According

587
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: to prosecutors, in between the bar and the Albert's house,

588
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: something went wrong. Karen left a voicemail to John that

589
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: said something, among other things, like quote, parents who are

590
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: listening with their children, there's going.

591
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: To be for the sake of our for the sake

592
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 3: of our our red I'm not going to say, why

593
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: don't you.

594
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not going to say it. But I also

595
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 2: if a child is listening, I'd like them to know

596
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: that I'm about to bleep out words that they can

597
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: really easily figure out what it is. And by the way,

598
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: trial you say all these things, so we don't censor

599
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: within trial because you need to know exactly what was said.

600
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: So this voicemail to John says, quote, you are an

601
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: efing loser f yourself, and John, I efing hate you.

602
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: But these are the kinds of things you really hope

603
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: you don't say to someone, especially on a recording the

604
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: night that they happened to die. But clearly it had

605
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: been a night with probably a lot of drinks. Don't

606
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: know what happened, but it was an impassioned voicemail with

607
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: a lot of f bomb's directed at the person who's

608
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 2: going to end up dead, and it's recorded. This is

609
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: not great for Karen.

610
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 3: And let's just say, I mean, if you're a defense downey,

611
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 3: I think you can spin this another way, which is

612
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 3: if she just killed the guy, Like if she knew

613
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: that she just hit him and left him for dead,

614
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: it's weird to leave him a voicemail and say that.

615
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: So you could say, look, this is evidence that they

616
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: did get in a fight for some reason. But maybe

617
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: it was because he wanted to go to this party

618
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 3: and she wanted to go home, and she was like,

619
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 3: well then fine, you can go right and she drops

620
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 3: him off. He goes into the party, she fires off

621
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 3: some mean voicemails, speeds home, goes to bed, and doesn't

622
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: realize anything's wrong until later. So there's that's the great

623
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 3: thing about trials. It's a great thing about evidence is

624
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 3: you can you can spend things all these different ways

625
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: and shade them depending on the argument you're trying to make.

626
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 3: So around twelve forty, according to witnesses Karen's black Lexus

627
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 3: pulls in near a flagpole and a fire hydrant on

628
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 3: the sort of far left side of this property. So

629
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 3: if you imagine this property, it's a home, nice home.

630
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: There's on the right side of the property there's a driveway.

631
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: There's a road running in front of this property, as

632
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: there are in front of most properties, and then there's

633
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 3: a flagpole sort of in the corner, and then on

634
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 3: the you know, near the curb, there's a fire hydrant.

635
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 3: So apparently she pulls in to this area about five

636
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 3: minutes later, she drives away at around one point thirty

637
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: and then later on it to people who are at

638
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: this house are starting to leave, they're getting a ride home.

639
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 3: One of them will later report seeing a dark object

640
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: and near this sort of flagpole fire hydrant area, but

641
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: she doesn't know what it is and she doesn't really

642
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 3: think that much about it. Now, it's January in Boston

643
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 3: and there is a nor'easter coming, so unsurprisingly, by this

644
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 3: point it has started to snow. It starts to snow

645
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 3: around midnight. As the night goes on, the snow gets

646
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: heavier and heavier and heavier. The temperatures are dropping into

647
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: the teens, and this blizzard that is bearing down on

648
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: the city would last most of the next day at

649
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 3: two twenty seven. This is a key point. This may

650
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 3: be one of the most important points in the entire case,

651
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: and whether or not this actually happened at two twenty

652
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 3: seven is a matter of contention. But according to the

653
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 3: defense for McKay, you may remember Brian Albert's sister in

654
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 3: law and another friend who is at the house that

655
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: night searches. She means to search how but she searches

656
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 3: hos long to die in cold Obviously if she's searching

657
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: this at two twenty seven, unless there's a major coincidence

658
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: here and everybody's just curious, Man, it's cold outside. I

659
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: wonder how long it takes to die, and she's like, well,

660
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: I'll search it. That would not be great, given that

661
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: someone is going to die in the cold that night.

662
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 3: Kind of like we were saying about, if you're Karen,

663
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 3: you don't want to have left those voicemails when someone

664
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 3: just so happens to die, And for Jennifer, you don't

665
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 3: want to have searched for this the night someone dies.

666
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 3: But it's not as simple as that. The defense says

667
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: it happened at two twenty seven. The prosecution will say

668
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: that this search happened at six point twenty three, And

669
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 3: this is going to be a battle of experts things,

670
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 3: with people looking at this data and trying to determine

671
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 3: when exactly this search happened. If it happened at two

672
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: twenty seven, it's bad. It's bad for Jim. If it

673
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: happened at six twenty three and it's at the behest

674
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: of Karen, then it's probably what's not as bad for

675
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 3: Jen obviously, and questionable how significant it is because by

676
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 3: that point they have found John and you can imagine

677
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: just trying to figure out exactly what's going on and

678
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: exactly how bad it is.

679
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, very very big difference between kind of the four

680
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: hours of when this would happen. And just for those

681
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 2: of you wondering, there is a typo and instead of

682
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: how it's hos so for those of you in the

683
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: chat who are laughing about maybe she just wanted to

684
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: search for hose, instead of how that's a possibility to

685
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: the code. But by the way, this is relevant though

686
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: because obviously we all text with typos. You can't change,

687
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: you know, texts to enter them into evidence. And so

688
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 2: these are things that people fight about in trial as well,

689
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: when there are typos, when there are kind of differing

690
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 2: something that doesn't say exactly that you wanted to say.

691
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: So we'll come back to that obviously. Okay, going back

692
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: really quick to the party, so we'll talk more about

693
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: what this driveway looks like, what people can and cannot see.

694
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: But the time they're leaving is pretty typical. That's when

695
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: a lot of bars close down. So one thirty to

696
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: two am, people leaving, getting in cars. It's been snowing

697
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: for a couple of hours. At this time, it's dark outside.

698
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: Keep all this in mind. We're not leaving in broad

699
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 2: daylight where you may have, you know, unobstructed visibility. Keep

700
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 2: in mind the time of day and also the environment

701
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: around them as people are leaving and whether they can

702
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: see something there or not. At two thirty, because it's

703
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: been snowing for a couple hours. And I will say

704
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: this much Massachusetts, you guys know how to do snow.

705
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: You have to start plowing immediately. You can't wait till

706
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 2: the morning once kind of the snow is accumulated to

707
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: really plow. So at two thirty, a snow plow driver

708
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 2: is plowing because that's when there the snow is fresh,

709
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: and that way you don't have to plow feet of

710
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 2: snow later.

711
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: And he will.

712
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: Say, as he plows near this house, he did not

713
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: notice a body lying in the yard. Now you would

714
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: think that the plow drivers keeping his eyes on the road,

715
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: that his job is to plow the snow. So he's

716
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: very aware, unlike maybe the guests who are leading at

717
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: one thirty or two. Things to think about in terms

718
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: of credibility and who you believe, and one other.

719
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: Thing I'll point out about this and we'll see whether

720
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: or not this comes to fruition. This is what the

721
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 3: defense says is going to happen. But if the timing

722
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 3: is correct here, then that means that John is not

723
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 3: in the snow at two thirty, which would also mean

724
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: that you would believe that when Jim McKay searts that

725
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 3: this was a very premeditated act, they are going to

726
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: put John out there in the cult sometime after the

727
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: snowplow goes by for the purpose of killing him. So

728
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 3: this wasn't a They beat him up and threw him

729
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: out of the house and then he stumbled and collapsed

730
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: in the snow. And died. This is we're going to

731
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 3: kill him. How long has it take to die on

732
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 3: the snow? Okay, that seems good, Let's throw him in

733
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 3: the snow. I mean that's essentially I think what you

734
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 3: have to believe is happening here. I'll just tell you

735
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 3: that snowplow drivers in Boston, I mean they pay attention

736
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: to like cars on the side of the road for

737
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 3: the purpose of either running into those cars on purpose

738
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: or covering them in snow. But I don't know how

739
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 3: observant they actually are of anything else. So we'll say

740
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 3: what ends up being testified to about this, But it's

741
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 3: an interesting point in the timeline.

742
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 2: At four fifty three Am o'keith's niece, the one that

743
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: he's the guardian of, called Jennifer McCabe. Karen, she said,

744
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: was distraught John had never come home and he wasn't

745
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 2: answering his cell phone. In fact, Karen was screaming, John

746
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: didn't come home. We had a fight. So this is

747
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 2: clearly the middle of the night. She's fourteen, probably going

748
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 2: to guess that she's typically not awake at four fifty

749
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 2: three am, probably woken up by the distraughtness of Karen

750
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 2: screaming he didn't come home. We had a fight, And

751
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 2: so she's trying to seek answers, reaching out to a

752
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: friend who may have been with him that night to

753
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: try and find out what's going on. At five am,

754
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 2: Karen calls another friend, Carrie Roberts, and says, quote, what

755
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: if he's dead. What if a plow hit him? I

756
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: don't remember anything from last night. We drank so much,

757
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 2: I don't remember anything. At this point, Karen gets in

758
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: her suv and drives around the neighborhood in town. So

759
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: this is about three four hours after she was seen

760
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 2: driving away from the Albert home. At five point thirty am, Karen,

761
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: Jennifer McCabe, and another woman go look for John. According

762
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: to prosecutors, Karen says that she noticed a crack in

763
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: her tail light and wondered if she could have been

764
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: the one who hit John. Later on, Karen would say

765
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: that she actually hit John's SUV in the driveway, breaking

766
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 2: the tail light in damaging her own Lexus, but no

767
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: tailight pieces were found in the driveway.

768
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 3: And so these are all I mean, like I said,

769
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: these are things that we think that will be an

770
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 3: issue at trial. A lot of this seems pretty damning

771
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 3: for Karen, but it's coming from people like Jennifer McCay,

772
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: and it's coming from people like kry Roberts, who I

773
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 3: think is the other woman who was with her at

774
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: the time. And I just want to repeat to you

775
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 3: why this is all important because a lot of this

776
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,479
Speaker 3: evidence that you're going to see is dealt with through

777
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 3: the conspiracy. But because it's dealt with through the conspiracy,

778
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: the conspiracy has to be true. So it's not good

779
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 3: enough if you think the police are incompetent, for instance,

780
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 3: but you're not convinced of the conspiracy, well that's not

781
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 3: great for Karen Reid. She really needs you to think

782
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 3: they're incompetent and there's a conspiracy and Jennifer McCabe's in

783
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 3: on it and everybody else is in on it. Because

784
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: you have to show how this evidence that you're seeing

785
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 3: at various places and the things that you're hearing, you

786
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 3: have to explain it away in a way that's not well,

787
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 3: it's because Karen's guilty. And I just think it's important

788
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 3: to remember that because when you're trying to figure out

789
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 3: what happened here, I mean, the jury is going to

790
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: make a decision one way or the other. She's either

791
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 3: going to be convicted or acquitted. But I think most

792
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 3: of us want to know the truth, right, I mean

793
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: most of us, I hope at least those of us

794
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 3: who are listening to this this whole cheering squad thing

795
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: that's happened in the Karen Reid case where you got

796
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 3: like it's like a sporting event when the pro Karen

797
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 3: Read people and the anti Karen Read people. I'm just

798
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 3: not that interested in that. I'm interested in knowing what happened.

799
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 3: So when you're trying to think about what happened to

800
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 3: all this stuff is very important. Fast forward to six am.

801
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: Reid sees John lying in the snow near Brian Albert's home.

802
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 3: So she's in the car with these other two women.

803
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 3: According to the other women, no one else in the

804
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: vehicle sees them. Read jumps out of the car. She

805
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 3: runs straight over to where he is. Emergency responders quickly arrive,

806
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 3: and Read, who is inconsolable, repeatedly says, at least according

807
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 3: to some people, I hit him, I hit him. The

808
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 3: defense will to argue that that is not what she said,

809
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 3: and that the responders who say that she said that

810
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 3: are lying for various reasons.

811
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: So note what the defense is arguing here is that

812
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 2: the responders who were not at the party, who were

813
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: not Alberts, who are not cops, are also part of

814
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: the lying to create the framing here.

815
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 3: So when the first responders arrive, they will say that

816
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 3: Reid is trying to perform CPR and her face is

817
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 3: covered in John's blood. The defense will use this to say, look,

818
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 3: the only person who tried to save John's life was

819
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 3: Karen Reid. Interestingly, and this is something that's going to

820
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: come up again and again, how do we know that.

821
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: How do we know that the only person trying to

822
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 3: save his life was Karen Reid? We know it from

823
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 3: the same people who also apparently are lying to try

824
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 3: and convict her. So the same first responders who say

825
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 3: they heard her say I hit him are also the

826
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,479
Speaker 3: people who said she was trying to save his life,

827
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: she was covered in blood. And this is sort of

828
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 3: an interesting thing that's gonna happen with a lot of

829
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 3: these witnesses who are going to be positive by the

830
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 3: defense as key parts of the conspiracy. If you're gonna

831
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 3: give testimony, this really good for Karen Reid, and this

832
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 3: is just the first example of that.

833
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: So we have testimony, right, whether you believe it or not,

834
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: that Karen says I hit him. I hit him at

835
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: the time that she finds his body. There are other

836
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: ways that the defense could go with this type of

837
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: bad evidence for Karen. Right, that doesn't sound great no

838
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: matter what, you're gonna have to deal with it because

839
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: it's in evidence. They chose one way, which is to

840
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: say that the person who testified of her saying I

841
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: hit him to have lied. There are other ways to

842
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 2: explain it away. She's in shock. She had nothing to

843
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: do with this. The first time you see someone dead,

844
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: especially if it's someone you're in a relationship that you love,

845
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: you say all types of things, whether they are true

846
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 2: or not. We know this of people who had nothing

847
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: to do with someone's death saying I killed him. Not

848
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 2: literally I killed him, but like you feel the guilt

849
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: of having been the one who was supposed to go

850
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: home with them, and instead of going home with him,

851
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: you went home and didn't make sure he got home,

852
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: for example. Right, So, there are other arguments that could

853
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: have been made with this bad evidence, and this is

854
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: not going to be the only bad evidence for Karen.

855
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: So note that just because you have bad evidence doesn't

856
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: mean you have to immediately default to they lied or

857
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: there's a framing. These are conscious decisions and strategies by

858
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 2: the defense to do these things. I'm not necessarily even

859
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,240
Speaker 2: say it's a good strategy bad strategy. I'm merely pointing

860
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 2: out this is not the only explanation for what she's saying.

861
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 3: And I'm glad Alice brings that up, because this is

862
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 3: a conscious decision by the defense. Now they might have

863
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 3: made it for many different reasons, but at some point

864
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 3: they made a conscious decision to go with this defense strategy.

865
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 3: And the problem with this defense strategy is it sort

866
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 3: of precludes you from saying it was an accident. Now, look,

867
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,439
Speaker 3: maybe that's because I don't know that you could argue

868
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 3: this and not be guilty of something. But we're going

869
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: to talk about the charger. She has minute, But you

870
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 3: could have said, look, she dropped him off, she was

871
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 3: mad because she wanted to go home, she left, had

872
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 3: no idea she hit him. And then she wakes up

873
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 3: the next morning and he's not there, and she starts

874
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: to think, you know, and sort of a recovering now

875
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 3: from her drunken haze. Oh my god, what if when

876
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 3: I was leaving, what if I hit him? I never

877
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 3: actually saw him walk in. I didn't wait, you know,

878
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 3: I had to back up to get out of there.

879
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 3: What if I hit him? Right? And then she ends

880
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 3: up driving over to where she parked, which she remembers

881
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 3: where they parked when she dropped him off, And that's

882
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 3: why she sees him because she's already has this sinking,

883
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 3: horrible feeling that maybe she did hit him, and then

884
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 3: there he is, and all of her worst fears come

885
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 3: crashing down on her. And that explains everything, right, I mean,

886
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 3: that explains everything. And then you're basically just arguing it

887
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 3: was an accident at worst, this is some sort of

888
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 3: douy type thing. But you know, douys are hard to prove,

889
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 3: and as we're going to see, there's a lot of

890
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 3: debate about the actual amount of alcohol that was consumed here.

891
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 3: You might be able to get a clean sweep on that,

892
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 3: but they have kind of foreclosed that as a possibility

893
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 3: because of the defense they've chosen to put on.

894
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: And I would go one step further for DUI's being

895
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: difficult to prove, is that we all know that when

896
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 2: something terrible happens to our loved ones, we blame ourselves, right,

897
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: Like if your child gets in a terrible accent, the

898
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 2: parent is always going to think I had something to

899
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: do with it, even if it's incredibly far removed. So

900
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: it would be natural you could argue, if you're the defense,

901
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: of course, she's going to put blame on herself because

902
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 2: she loves him. That's what you do when you love someone.

903
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: You think of the worst case scenario, how you had

904
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 2: some blame. But there's actually no evidence. Is she doesn't

905
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: even actually know that she hit him, So we're arguing

906
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 2: that she didn't. She wasn't the one who hit him

907
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 2: at all. Right, you create I can see complete reasonable

908
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: doubt there because she doesn't remember, They don't remember. But

909
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: I find that to be a believable story. Right, we

910
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: all know everyone who's drinking that night. You could have

911
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 2: all these same witnesses getting up there talking about the

912
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: number of drinks they had, backed up by cameras. You know,

913
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 2: footage of them going back up to the bar, drink

914
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: after drink after drink, and they go back to an

915
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 2: after party, drink after drink after drink, and they leave.

916
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: This is a very believable story, one that I don't

917
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 2: think is difficult to sell. But I will say this much. Yeah,

918
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't be hearing about it in the news as

919
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 2: much if that was the defense's theory.

920
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 3: And look, one interesting question, and we might as well

921
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 3: talk about this because there's nowhere actually gonna get to

922
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 3: the openings. Like I said, we'll start the next episode

923
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 3: of those. One interesting question is how much did pre

924
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 3: trial publicity influence the defense strategy in vice versa, because

925
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 3: this case, like Delphi, has been one where there's been

926
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 3: a lot of talk about the conversation between the defense

927
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: and by a lot of the people in the media

928
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 3: who have supported Karen Reid, and the people who've supported

929
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 3: Karen Reid have been very aggressive that she is completely innocent,

930
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 3: that this arises from corrupt in the police department, and

931
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 3: that she was framed, and they've really pushed that narrative,

932
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 3: and that narrative has generated a lot of support for

933
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 3: Caen Reid, a lot of money for her defense. I mean,

934
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: she has top flight defense attorneys who I assume are

935
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 3: being paid for through some sort of defense fund. I mean,

936
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 3: maybe she has the money paid for them. I'm not sure,

937
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 3: but I mean, these are really good defense attorneys, and

938
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 3: I almost wonder how much of this decision was influenced

939
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 3: by that, because if you don't make that argument, the

940
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: argument that's been made in the public, are you going

941
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 3: to lose that support. So even if there's a pretty

942
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 3: good strategic decision that you could make there to kind

943
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: of accept some responsibility but not criminal responsibility, you can't

944
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 3: do it because of the public situation. I'm sure we'll

945
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 3: talk about that more. This is this is a very

946
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 3: I mean, this fascinating case. It really is, and you'll

947
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: just have to deal with us because we're gonna ramble

948
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: a little bit on this one. Because when we talk

949
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: about these fascinating cases, we ramble. I think that's why

950
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 3: some of you listen to us. That's why some of

951
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 3: you hate us. Okay, it's six point twenty three, coming

952
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 3: back around. According to prosecution, Jennifer McKay searches hosts how

953
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 3: Long to Die in Cold? This is the search that

954
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 3: the defense argues was actually made four hours earlier, at

955
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: two twenty seven. Whatever the case is. At six point

956
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 3: thirty four, Reed will text a friend he's dead. As

957
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 3: the day continue, the police are searching through mounds of

958
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 3: growing snow during this ongoing blizzard, they will find a

959
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 3: broken cocktail glass and pieces of tail light at the scene.

960
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 3: They also find a shoe matching the one that John

961
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 3: was missing. According to the prosecution, the tail light pieces

962
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 3: will later be found to have John's DNA on them.

963
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 3: After the snow melts some more even more tail light

964
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 3: pieces will be found. According to the defense, these pieces

965
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 3: were planted to help bolster this case the DNA. There

966
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 3: will be accusations by the defense that essentially evidence that

967
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 3: was collected during this period was collected in a way

968
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 3: that would not have secured that evidence and would have

969
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 3: allowed someone if they so desired, to plant DNA on

970
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 3: these pieces of taillight and on Karen's as TV.

971
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: One thing to know here is that these tailight pieces

972
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: are found really within hours of when you think, let's

973
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 2: go back to about midnight twelve thirty when Karen drives away,

974
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 2: so really within six hours. So if there was a

975
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 2: conspiracy to make it look like Karen was the one

976
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: who hit him with a car, this all had to

977
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: be fabricated pretty early on because we yes, we know

978
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: that tailit pieces were found later on when the snow melts,

979
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: but there's also tailight pieces found at the time of

980
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 2: this blizzard. Those of you who've been through a blizzard

981
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: know that this is no joke. When there is a

982
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 2: blizzard and there's snow literally rising and covering up things,

983
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 2: that is not an environment I would like to have

984
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: to search. So the fact that they found anything at all,

985
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 2: honestly is kind of amazing because this snow is still

986
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 2: coming down at the time. So I'm not saying conspiracies

987
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: not possible, but think of the timeline in which this

988
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: had to happen. This wasn't something that kind of came

989
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 2: to fruition a couple days later. This had to have

990
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 2: been done basically at the same time that whoever you

991
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 2: think planted the body had to plant these pieces at

992
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: the same time.

993
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like the broken cocktail glass was found very

994
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 3: early on, and we know for a fact that John

995
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 3: left the bar with the cocktail glass, And yeah, I

996
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 3: mean the wheels had to start turning pretty soon. Basically,

997
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 3: what you have to think is happening is while he's

998
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 3: laying out there in the snow, calls are being made,

999
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 3: texts are being made whatever to various people in various

1000
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 3: organizations to begin this cover up to call in a

1001
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 3: lot of favors to make this happen, and then either

1002
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 3: at the time or subsequently, additional people are added into

1003
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 3: this conspiracy, including first responders, members of the fire department,

1004
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 3: to bolster what's going on. And you'll see that as

1005
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 3: we go through the witnesses. There are a ton of them,

1006
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 3: and the prosecution made a very conscious decision about how

1007
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 3: to present their evidence. They're doing it in chronological basically,

1008
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 3: so the first few witnesses, the first a lot of

1009
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 3: witnesses are the scene, so you see initially it's all

1010
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 3: the people at the scene who were showing up finding

1011
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 3: the body, the first responders, the police on the scene,

1012
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Those people, they're the initial witnesses.

1013
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 3: And then they sort of go back a little bit

1014
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 3: to that night and they're calling people who were at

1015
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 3: the bar, and they're calling people who were at the

1016
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 3: Albert's house, and they're going to move through it like that,

1017
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 3: and every single one of these witnesses on cross the

1018
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 3: defense is starting to try and build this theme that

1019
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 3: somehow these people were involved in this conspiracy. It's a

1020
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 3: fascinating thing to watch, and if you are not watching

1021
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 3: this trial, it is worth watching, and unlike some trials,

1022
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 3: it is televised, so you can watch every single second

1023
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 3: of it if you want to. So at nine to

1024
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 3: eight am, blood is drunk. She's actually we're going to

1025
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 3: talk about this some but she's she's saying things that

1026
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 3: some members of her family and some police officers think

1027
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 3: may be suicidal. So she's actually in We'll have the

1028
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 3: exact term when we get to the witnesses, but basically

1029
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 3: a mental health hold is put on her. She's taken

1030
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 3: to the hospital. In addition to other things. Her blood

1031
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 3: is drun Her blood alcohol level at the time is

1032
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 3: point oh seven to point eight, so she is legally drunk.

1033
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 3: At the time of this. It's nine o'clock in the morning.

1034
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 2: It's like eight hours after she leaves the Albert home.

1035
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 3: Right, and according to a witness who is going to

1036
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 3: sort of do this backwards, right, I mean, this is

1037
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 3: an inexact science. But if she stops drinking at that point,

1038
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 3: so she drops John off, goes home and goes to bed,

1039
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 3: that would put her BAC at between point one point

1040
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 3: three and point two nine around the time of the

1041
00:55:55,120 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 3: supposed strike. Like I said, that's a huge range, and

1042
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 3: it is a testament to how your body processes alcohol

1043
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 3: and how everyone is different in how they process alcohol,

1044
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 3: that that range is so massive. Now, Karen, she's not

1045
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 3: a big person, She's a woman. Typically women don't process

1046
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 3: alcohol or handle out call as well as men. Not

1047
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 3: saying that there aren't women out there can drink men

1048
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 3: under the table absolutely don't be offended. But because of

1049
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 3: sort of her body top, you would expect that if

1050
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 3: she drank as much as the prose execution is going

1051
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 3: to say, that number is probably closer too point two

1052
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,439
Speaker 3: nine than it is two point one point three.

1053
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 2: I mean, it's striking alone that eight hours after she

1054
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: last left the house she is still legally drunk, right,

1055
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 2: That is the fact we have. So, of course there's

1056
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 2: going to be an autopsy done on John's body, and

1057
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 2: on January thirty first, the autopsy finds that John died

1058
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 2: of blunt impact injuries to the head, with hypothermia as

1059
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 2: a contributing factor. The medical examiner finds no obvious signs

1060
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: of an altercation or fight, though On February second, twenty

1061
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: twenty two, just a couple days after the autopsy comes back,

1062
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: Karen is charged with manslaughter motor vehicle homicide and leaving

1063
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: the scene of a motor vehicle collision. Four days later,

1064
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 2: on February sixth, hundreds of officers lined the streets for

1065
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: O'Keefe's funeral, which is also attended by the Mayor of Boston,

1066
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: Michelle Wu. So he has served on the force for

1067
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 2: sixteen years. He is seemingly a very well liked man

1068
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: in his community, within his workplace, and it is not unusual,

1069
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: of course, when a fellow officer is fallen that you

1070
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 2: pay your respects by lining the streets, attending, etc. And

1071
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 2: this one really draws out everyone. He doesn't die in

1072
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: the line of duty, but he dies kind of in

1073
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: his prime. He is a young man, he's only forty

1074
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 2: six years old. He's already served on the force for

1075
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 2: sixteen years. And this draws a lot of attention, of

1076
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 2: course to Karen Reid, who just days earlier had been

1077
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: charged with his death. On June tenth, twenty twenty two,

1078
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 2: Karen is indicted, so she was charged previously right with

1079
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 2: the manslaughter motor vehicle charges. Essentially these charges are essentially

1080
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: elevated to a higher crime on June tenth, when she's

1081
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 2: indicted on second degree murder, manslaughter while under the influence

1082
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: and leaving the scene. This is not that unusual. We've

1083
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 2: talked about this before, especially when you have enough evidence

1084
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: to charge something like it's clear something has happened, then

1085
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 2: you can go ahead and charge the lower crime. And

1086
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 2: as your investigation progresses, the autopsies come back, et cetera,

1087
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 2: et cetera, read text messages you get and you think

1088
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 2: you can charge something higher and prove it, you can

1089
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 2: come back and enhance those charges. And that's exactly what

1090
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:47,439
Speaker 2: happened here.

1091
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 3: And you gotta remember, the grand jury is hearing the

1092
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 3: prosecutions story without the benefit of the defense story. And

1093
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I think everyone could agree that the prosecution's

1094
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 3: story without the conspiracy. If you assume the police are

1095
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 3: not planning evidence, if you assume you can believe the

1096
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 3: first responders, you can see why the grand jury would

1097
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 3: reach the conclusion it did. Obviously, that is going to

1098
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 3: be disputed at trial, and that's what we're talking about now. Initially,

1099
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 3: the defense's position is kind of what we said earlier.

1100
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 3: It's like, look, this is horrible. They vastly overcharged her.

1101
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 3: This was an accident. She didn't even know she hit him,

1102
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 3: said sort of that line of things, But by May

1103
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty three, that story has changed. Now Ree's

1104
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 3: defense team is alleging that, in fact, John was involved

1105
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 3: in a fight inside the Albert home. After he was beaten,

1106
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 3: his former friends dumped his body in their front yard.

1107
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 3: The defense even claims, as we said earlier, that the

1108
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 3: wounds to John's arm were created by an attack by

1109
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 3: the Albert's dog, Chloe. The defense will claim quote that

1110
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 3: every single one of the people in in the house

1111
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 3: that night, including Brian Albert, Jennifer McKay, various other people

1112
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 3: were involved in John's murder and cover up in some way.

1113
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 3: The cover up also included the Canton Police Department, first responders,

1114
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 3: people in the state Police. A vast swath of people

1115
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 3: in Canton are involved in this. And the reason for

1116
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 3: this is because the Alberts were pillars of this community

1117
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 3: and if they needed help, the community was going to

1118
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 3: come together and help them. To Karen Reid's detriment, because

1119
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 3: she was an outsider, she was not part of this community.

1120
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 2: Note one thing in this change story from the defense,

1121
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 2: We're hearing a lot about who is doing the conspiring,

1122
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 2: But you may all be thinking, what is the mayor

1123
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 2: of Boston who showed up to the funeral have to

1124
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,959
Speaker 2: do with this. A city select councilman, you know, people

1125
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:55,919
Speaker 2: who ram campaigns for them. Who is John O'Keefe. Why

1126
01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 2: is the entire city of Canton conspiring to kill him?

1127
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 2: That is not something we've heard yet back in May

1128
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, And that's an important question to ask

1129
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 2: because kind of like in the ad non case, conspiracies exist.

1130
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 2: We're not saying people are not capable of conspiracies, but

1131
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 2: I think an important counter kind of part of the

1132
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 2: story is why why all of this conspiracy for this

1133
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: particular person.

1134
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's a really good point Alice

1135
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 3: to put her finger on, and it's something to remember.

1136
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 3: The reason the defense will say is because the Alberts

1137
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 3: were cops, and cops protect cops. But the weird thing

1138
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 3: about this conspiracy, John's a cop too, and cops don't

1139
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 3: like it when cops get killed. And you would think

1140
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 3: there would at least be divided loyalties in the various

1141
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 3: police departments and the state police and everywhere else, and

1142
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 3: some people who really wanted John to get justice, even

1143
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 3: if it meant another cop was going to go down.

1144
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 3: Because he killed him. But you have to believe that

1145
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,439
Speaker 3: that this really is sort of they had to pick

1146
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 3: you know, John's dead, sort of one of those Look,

1147
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 3: he's already dead, we can't do anything for him. Will

1148
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 3: honor him at a funeral, We'll all show up in

1149
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 3: our dress blues and march down the streets of Boston.

1150
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 3: But then we got to protect our other police officer friend.

1151
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 3: Even though he's responsible for John's death. We have to

1152
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,919
Speaker 3: protect him. And if that means framing an innocent woman,

1153
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 3: so be it. We have to do that. That's sort

1154
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 3: of what you have to believe. And at the same

1155
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 3: time that the defense is coming out with this, a

1156
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 3: blogger named Aiden Kearney, who had, to his credit, done

1157
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 3: some good work on uncovering police corruption through his postings

1158
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 3: on Turtle boy News, was engaged in what he would

1159
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 3: describe as an attempt to uncover this conspiracy against Karen Reid.

1160
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 3: The prosecution didn't see it that way, saying that instead

1161
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 3: Kearney was harassing and intimidating witnesses. He'd eventually be arrested

1162
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 3: on October eleventh, twenty twenty three, in charge with at

1163
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 3: least sixteen felony charges related to these claims, things would

1164
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 3: get worse for Kearnie when his bail was revoked over

1165
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 3: charges he had assaulted his ex girl. He'd spend two

1166
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 3: months in jail until released again. For his part, Curney

1167
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 3: claims he is the victim of persecution for exercising his

1168
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 3: First Amendment rights. He has been attending the trial to

1169
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 3: some extent. I believe he's excluded whenever someone testifies that

1170
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 3: he's accused of harassing, and he's been in there otherwise.

1171
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 3: There have been accusations that he's doing things like filming

1172
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 3: the jury and other stuff. No idea if any of

1173
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 3: that's true. He has a very controversial figure. So on

1174
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 3: March twelfth, twenty twenty four, the defense claimed, and this

1175
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 3: is like a weird curveball in all this case, which

1176
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 3: has led to some really great conspiracy theories. The defense

1177
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 3: claimed that the FBI, working as part of a federal

1178
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 3: investigation into the Karen Read case, concluded that the damage

1179
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 3: to the SUV was inconsistent with hitting John's body, and

1180
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 3: this would become sort of a thing in this case

1181
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 3: that in fact, the FBI and the US Attorney's Office

1182
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts was investigating this case from a different angle

1183
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 3: that at any moment the FBI was going to show

1184
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 3: up in the courtroom and arrest everyone, that maybe the

1185
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 3: trial itself was actually an affront to get all these

1186
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 3: people to go on the stand and pursure themselves, and

1187
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 3: then they're all going to be arrested for perjury and

1188
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:17,439
Speaker 3: then this case is going to be removed to federal court.

1189
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 3: Just some wild stuff. I'm not exactly sure what all

1190
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 3: is going on with the FBI and the US Tore's office,

1191
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 3: but one thing I can say for certain is the

1192
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 3: FBI is not going to raid this trial. That is

1193
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 3: not the way this goes. So you can put that aside.

1194
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 3: But it's funny because at one point, this trial is

1195
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 3: constantly interrupted by sirens because it's near I don't know

1196
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 3: if it's near the police station or what where the

1197
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 3: courthouse is, but there was a while where every time

1198
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 3: there was a siren, people would be like, is that

1199
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 3: it is this? It's the FBI? Are they here? Are

1200
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 3: they raiding the courthouse? Not going to happen.

1201
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 2: Let me just tell you the FBI, if for some

1202
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 2: reason that was going to happen, the FBI would like

1203
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 2: to talk to the judge and be like this is

1204
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: what's going to go down. We're not going to call

1205
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 2: the entire press and the gallery and all the jurors

1206
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 2: who are like innocent bystanders. We're not gonna have this

1207
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 2: public takedown where all these innocent people will be at risk.

1208
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 2: Right when you have a takedown, those are you try

1209
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 2: to control those environments as much as possible. That's why

1210
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 2: takedowns of like America's most wanted don't happen in crowded restaurants.

1211
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 2: They happen at the person's home at three am to

1212
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 2: catch them surprised. So I'm just giving you a little

1213
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 2: bit of background. I'm not giving like great state secrets

1214
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 2: over here. It's just the truth. There was no way

1215
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 2: if there was a takedown, the FBI would do it

1216
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 2: in a room full of innocent citizens.

1217
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 3: Not to mention, can you imagine a plan where we're

1218
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 3: gonna let this woman be tried for murder and then

1219
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 3: at some point in the middle of the trial, that's

1220
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 3: when we're going to spring our trap. That's that's something

1221
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 3: particularly given that all these people have already testified in

1222
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 3: front of grand jury. So if you were going to

1223
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 3: get in for perjury, you can already get in for

1224
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 3: perjury because it test find grand jury. But I don't know.

1225
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 3: We'll see what happens. I guess maybe I'll be proven Rome.

1226
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 2: I guess we're just we're being cold water prosecutors already.

1227
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 2: It's just some of these things. This is damaging, right.

1228
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 2: We shouldn't be watching a trial waiting for the FBI

1229
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 2: to bust and arrest everybody, or like have a shootdown,

1230
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 2: because guess what, You're not going to arrest people about guns.

1231
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 2: This is what I mean when I say they're not

1232
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 2: going to put all these innocent lives at risk because

1233
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 2: entire SWAT teams come in with massive artillery to protect

1234
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 2: the FBI when they do a takedown. It's not going

1235
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 2: to happen in this courthouse. Nothing couldn't happen in general.

1236
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 2: It's just not going to happen in the middle of trial.

1237
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 2: On March thirteenth, Massachusetts State Police opened an internal investigation

1238
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 2: into Trooper Michael Proctor, someone we noted earlier was the

1239
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 2: lead investigator on the Karen Reid case. The police do

1240
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 2: not say what prompted this investigation, and he remains on

1241
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,720
Speaker 2: full duty, which probably means it's still pending that they

1242
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 2: haven't concluded anything, Yet the defense would allege that Proctor

1243
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 2: hid personal ties to people involved in the case. Now,

1244
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 2: Proctor did send a lot of text messages, and unfortunately,

1245
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 2: you never want to be part of a case that

1246
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 2: you're investigating or prosecuting. But his text messages become a

1247
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 2: major part of Karen Reid's case. In April, the court

1248
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 2: denies both a defense's motion to dismiss and a prosecution

1249
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 2: motion to prevent Karen reads defense from making the some

1250
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 2: other dude did it defense. So kind of a loss

1251
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 2: and a win for either side. Right, you would expect

1252
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: the defense to file a motion to dismiss, essentially saying

1253
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 2: she hasn't been properly charged, there's not enough evidence. All

1254
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 2: these things, we don't even go to trial. Judge, just

1255
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 2: kick it out on the papers. Judge said, no, that's

1256
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 2: not surprising. By the way, these types of cases very rarely,

1257
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 2: there's going to be a defect in the indictment for

1258
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 2: the motion to dismiss to succeed.

1259
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 3: Shout out to say Lil Brise. By the way, another

1260
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 3: dude did it.

1261
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 2: Defense, the Saudi defense, Some other dude did it and

1262
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 2: you should listen to it as well. Our other podcast

1263
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 2: where we talk about the some other dude did it defense,

1264
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 2: because some of you have asked before, when can you,

1265
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 2: as a defense argue, hey, did it somebody did it,

1266
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 2: doesn't matter who, just not me. Well, you can't just

1267
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 2: assert these things that there's no evidence. And so that's

1268
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 2: what the prosecution was trying to do here. They knew

1269
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 2: that because of the kind of public statements that the

1270
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 2: defense had made, they were going to say that Karen

1271
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 2: Reid was framed so like the ultimate some other dude

1272
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 2: did it right, and so they tried to seek to

1273
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 2: keep it out and say there wasn't evidence to suggest

1274
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 2: that type of theory. The judge said no, all out

1275
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:36,600
Speaker 2: after those two major rulings, which was a loss and

1276
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 2: a win for both sides. April twenty ninth of this year,

1277
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 2: the trial began and it continues as of us recording

1278
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 2: this first episode.

1279
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 3: And we're in June. So that just gives you an idea.

1280
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 3: It's a long time going. As we speak. The prosecution

1281
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 3: is still presenting its case. The defense says it's going

1282
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 3: to have the case, so this one could be going

1283
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 3: on for quite some time. We're gonna try and be

1284
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 3: with you the whole time.

1285
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:03,559
Speaker 4: In case.

1286
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 3: I'll probably be decided before we finish up, but we'll

1287
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 3: tell you at the end what we think should have happened,

1288
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 3: and we'll tell you what we think actually happened that night.

1289
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 3: And look, I think this is this is an interesting case.

1290
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 3: I mean, I will be completely frank with you, as

1291
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 3: I have said before, when you make extraordinary claims, I

1292
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 3: need extraordinary evidence. So if I'm going to believe the

1293
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 3: cover up, I'm gonna need to see a lot from

1294
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 3: the defense over these next few weeks to prove that.

1295
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:31,760
Speaker 3: To me. The better question, I think is the weird

1296
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 3: thing about this is I want to say, can they

1297
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 3: get to reasonable doubt? But the way the defense has

1298
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 3: structured their defense, you almost either have to believe that

1299
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 3: Karen did it and she's guilty, or that the conspiracy

1300
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 3: is true. They haven't left a whole lot of room

1301
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 3: in the middle. There is still room in the middle.

1302
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 3: You could have a jury that says, look, we thought

1303
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 3: the defense was full of crap, but when we looked

1304
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 3: at what the prosecution put on, they didn't meet their burden.

1305
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 3: That would be a really savvy, good jury, and that

1306
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 3: would be a jury that really understands its role. Usually

1307
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 3: when the defense is leading you down a certain path.

1308
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 3: It's the jury is gonna either follow that path or

1309
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 3: they're going to go with the prosecution. So we have

1310
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 3: to see what happens. It'd be fascinating to see. I

1311
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:14,639
Speaker 3: think there's a lot of really interesting stuff between Karen

1312
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 3: Reid committed second degree murder, which, as we talked about before,

1313
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 3: a second degree murder. Second degree murder is not first

1314
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 3: degree murder because first degree murder requires premeditation, so that

1315
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 3: you have to decide you're going to kill someone and

1316
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 3: make it happen. It is worse than manslaughter, which involves

1317
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 3: negligence or some sort of gross negligence. It's in this

1318
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 3: sort of fuzzy gray area where you do something that

1319
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 3: you should have known was incredibly dangerous and you do

1320
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 3: it anyway. So the example people often use is firing

1321
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 3: a gun into a crowded room. You're not try and

1322
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 3: hit anybody. You don't care if you hit anybody. You're

1323
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,839
Speaker 3: certainly not aiming at anyone. But it's such a dangerous

1324
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 3: thing to do. It's such a reckless disregard for human

1325
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 3: life that if you do hit someone, we're going to

1326
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 3: punish you worse than just manslaughter in this case. I

1327
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 3: think what she would have to believe is that Karen

1328
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 3: Reid did not intend necessarily to hit John, or maybe

1329
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 3: she did intend to hit John, but she did not

1330
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 3: intend to kill him, but she hit him on purpose,

1331
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 3: or she left him in the snow on purpose and

1332
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 3: then drove away, and that that action was such a

1333
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 3: reckless disregard for his life that when he then subsequently died,

1334
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 3: she was guilty of the crime. I think that's what

1335
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 3: you have to believe to get to second degree murder.

1336
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 3: There are sort of lesser included here. The lesser charge

1337
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 3: of manslaughter due to intoxication is basically, this was an accident.

1338
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 3: She was really drunk, She hit him and probably didn't even

1339
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 3: realize she hit him, drove home, the left the scene

1340
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 3: of an accident is sort of the same thing. If

1341
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,439
Speaker 3: she was so drunk she didn't realize it, that's enough

1342
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:56,720
Speaker 3: to get there. She doesn't have to have intended to

1343
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 3: leave it. So there's sort of a gradation of what

1344
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 3: you could see here. You could see the prosecution win

1345
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 3: in a clean suite, lose in a clean sweep, or

1346
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 3: something in the middle, and we'll be with you every

1347
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 3: step of the way. Okay, Alice, before we do a

1348
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 3: question tonight, is there anything else you want to say

1349
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 3: about this case.

1350
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 2: There's a lot to say, but we'll leave it at

1351
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 2: the first episode because there really is a lot more

1352
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 2: to say. But I hope you are hearing our skepticism,

1353
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:26,759
Speaker 2: not necessarily. Look, there's a lot more to the trial

1354
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: to come. There are a lot more people to testify,

1355
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 2: But these are questions that you should be asking all

1356
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 2: along the way. You should have skepticism as you listen

1357
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 2: to these witnesses. A lot of people say, well, wait

1358
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 2: until you hear all the evidence. No, it's completely okay

1359
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 2: to ask these questions as you are presented with the evidence,

1360
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 2: and it's something that you should do and it's part

1361
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 2: of critical thinking along the way. So these questions that

1362
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 2: we have may be answered by subsequent testimony in the trial,

1363
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 2: doesn't mean we shouldn't be asking them now. So don't

1364
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 2: view trials as well. I have to just accept everything

1365
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 2: that's told to me and sit back and until I

1366
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 2: hear all the evidence at once. No, you're ability to

1367
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 2: reason and critically think isn't suspended just because the full

1368
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 2: evidence hasn't been presented. If something smells funny, as someone

1369
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 2: sessifying that's okay to point out, and if that question

1370
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 2: is not answered at the end, then that's a problem

1371
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 2: that goes to the credibility of whether you should believe

1372
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 2: that witness and that line of argument.

1373
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just going to agree with everything Alice has said,

1374
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 3: and once again not to dwell on this. But ordinarily

1375
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 3: the defense has no burden. The defense cannot ask They

1376
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:30,799
Speaker 3: can choose not to ask a single question of any witness.

1377
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 3: They can choose not to put on a single witness.

1378
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 3: They can choose to waive their opening and their clothes.

1379
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 3: They can do all those things, and still the defendant

1380
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,719
Speaker 3: be acquitted if the prosecution doesn't meet their burden. And

1381
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:44,679
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to burden shift here. I'm not trying

1382
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,719
Speaker 3: to put a burden on the defense, but the defense

1383
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:49,559
Speaker 3: in a real way, has taken on a burden here.

1384
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 2: I was going to say they created their own burden.

1385
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:53,759
Speaker 2: They really did. You know, we always say in opening

1386
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,719
Speaker 2: statements that essentially what you're doing is you're building the shelf.

1387
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 2: You get to build the shelf as the prosecution and

1388
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 2: the defense. It could be a T shaped shelf, it

1389
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 2: could be a round shelf. It could be a shelf

1390
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 2: with no shelves. You actually get to decide what the

1391
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 2: story will look like. And what that shelf is going

1392
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 2: to do is hold the evidence you're going to present.

1393
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 2: When I say no shelves, I mean you don't have

1394
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 2: to present any evidence that's completely valid. You can present

1395
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 2: an invisible shelf as the defense and say simply there's

1396
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 2: no evidence period. That is actually a very very common strategy.

1397
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:30,760
Speaker 2: But what they've done the defense by saying Karen Reid

1398
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 2: was framed within the first sentence of the opening statement,

1399
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 2: is to build a very complex shelf with a lot

1400
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 2: of intricacies that they have to fill with evidence. By

1401
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 2: their own words, that's not burden shifting. That's them building

1402
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 2: a shelf that they're going to have to now fill.

1403
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 3: Okay, we can't wait. Dear what you guys think about this? Guys,

1404
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 3: you've been asking for us to do this, cause we're

1405
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 3: gonna do it. I know this case is incredibly divisive,

1406
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 3: and that's fine. Half of you a're gonna hate us

1407
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 3: when we finish it, hopefully half of you still love us.

1408
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 3: Is to lose all listeners at some point, So that's

1409
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 3: just what we're trying to do. Try to be divisive.

1410
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 3: We're trying to all the time. So I mean, at

1411
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:09,640
Speaker 3: least you know we're not just telling you what you

1412
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:12,880
Speaker 3: want to hear. So be with us, stick with us, listen,

1413
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 3: know what you think at Prosecutor's Pod for all your

1414
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 3: social media Prosecutorspod at gmail dot com. If you want

1415
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 3: to send us an email, go to Prosecutors Podcast our

1416
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:25,360
Speaker 3: website for various things of randomness, including a lot of links.

1417
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 3: Look great coverage of this case. The Boston Globe been

1418
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 3: doing yeomen's work on this really excellent stuff. Great resource.

1419
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:37,719
Speaker 3: You can watch every single episode episode day of trial

1420
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 3: which seemed like episodes on YouTube and various different sources.

1421
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 3: Do it go to the source, as we always say,

1422
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 3: because I will tell you this is a case where

1423
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:49,600
Speaker 3: having watched a lot of this trial, we're going to

1424
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 3: tell you how this goes. We're going to tell you

1425
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 3: what witnesses say. Credibility in this one matters so much,

1426
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,400
Speaker 3: and hearing these people tell the story it is so

1427
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 3: different from reading it on the dry page or on

1428
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:03,760
Speaker 3: Twitter or wherever you are. So if you really want

1429
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 3: to know, don't listen to us, watch the trial. So

1430
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 3: but also listen to us because we'relucky when you listen

1431
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 3: to us. Thank you to our patrons. So glad you

1432
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 3: guys are here tonight. Hope you'll be with us throughout

1433
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:18,719
Speaker 3: this case. Okay, all that, all the business aside, Let's

1434
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 3: do a question. We'll run a little along, so we'll

1435
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 3: do one, but we'll do one. This is a good one. Okay.

1436
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 3: So this is from Missy Lexi and Missy Lexi wants

1437
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 3: to know, Alice and Bratt if you could have any

1438
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:37,679
Speaker 3: animal in the world as a pet, what would it be.

1439
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:39,799
Speaker 2: We're going through this fight right now with my kids,

1440
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:43,640
Speaker 2: and my answer is no animals. Yes, they've asked for

1441
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 2: a rattlesnake, they've asked for oh yeah, exactly, they've asked

1442
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 2: for amanatee. The list can go on. But let me

1443
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 2: just say that question kind of hits a sensitive nerve

1444
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,719
Speaker 2: because I've said no to a lot of the animals

1445
01:16:56,720 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 2: that I say we cannot have. First of all, because

1446
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 2: a lot of them would be legal to have. So

1447
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 2: I'm not just a mean person, but I'm a dog lover.

1448
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 2: I'm a dog lover. I was gonna say there's nothing

1449
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:08,000
Speaker 2: else I want. I want dogs.

1450
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 3: Dogs are the best they are, They're best. I think people. Okay,

1451
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 3: number one, I think if I'm if I want an

1452
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 3: animal that's not a dog, then we're gonna have to

1453
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 3: create miniaturization. If I can have a miniature elephant or

1454
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,640
Speaker 3: a miniature giraffe, I'm talking like a little what I

1455
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 3: can hold my hand, that would be pretty cool. But otherwise,

1456
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 3: if it's in the realm of actual animals, give me

1457
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:36,720
Speaker 3: a dog. You know, ten thousand years, dogs and mankind

1458
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 3: have been together, like fighting together to survive in this

1459
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 3: harsh world. We love each other for a reason. There's

1460
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 3: no connection like between men and dogs, like they are

1461
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:49,439
Speaker 3: our best friends for a reason, and do not shun

1462
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 3: them for some of their animal That would be cool.

1463
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:54,360
Speaker 3: To have a cheetah cheata would be fun, But I

1464
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 3: want a dog. I'm going the dog.

1465
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, glad we agree.

1466
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, now that we've brought everybody together before tearing

1467
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:09,360
Speaker 3: everyone asunder, we'll go ahead and say good night for now,

1468
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 3: but we will be back next week. Probably there will

1469
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:14,880
Speaker 3: have been at least two days of trial between now

1470
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 3: and then next week with more on this case. But

1471
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:24,720
Speaker 3: until then, I'm Brett and I'm Alice, and we are

1472
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:49,880
Speaker 3: the prosecutors going live going live.

1473
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:52,240
Speaker 2: The things that people don't hear you say.

1474
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 3: I'm going live, going live, doing.

1475
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 4: It, live, doing it.

1476
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 3: Someone has the murder Joe first, so we can come.

1477
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness.

1478
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 3: Anyways, Okay, you ready, Hey, let's do this.

1479
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 2: Let's elevate this.

1480
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 3: Let's elevate it. Let's elevate it. There you go.

1481
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 2: Sorry, guys, inside joke.

1482
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes y'all miss the the green Ram conversation.

1483
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 2: Thank you Mallory for recognizing I am my own greatest

1484
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:30,080
Speaker 2: fan for jokes. If you don't laugh at your own jokes,

1485
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:34,439
Speaker 2: you know, stuck double the fun, tell and laugh at it.

1486
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:37,479
Speaker 3: The word I'm gonna use to describe you, it's not

1487
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 3: a pun, but it is more related to the case

1488
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 3: than you said.

1489
01:20:41,080 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 5: Don't don't be insulted

1490
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:21,080
Speaker 2: In