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Speaker 1: Novel.

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Speaker 2: I read a lot of romance novels. People have a

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Speaker 2: tendency to make fun of them, mostly because it's a

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Speaker 2: genre largely targeted towards and written by women. Romance novels

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Speaker 2: are full of hope, humor, and yes, sometimes there's really

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Speaker 2: steamy sex. You like dragons and elves. You want to

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Speaker 2: know what it looks like when a whole hockey team

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Speaker 2: finds love. Maybe you'd like a fictionalized version of an

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Speaker 2: amish courtship, or what would it look like for a

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Speaker 2: rabbi to fall for a former sex worker. Romance has

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Speaker 2: it all, Pumpkin. There's even a world where Italian gangsters

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Speaker 2: learn there's more to life than money and violence. I'd

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Speaker 2: actually never read any mafia romances before I came across

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Speaker 2: you his story, so I figured i'd pick up a

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Speaker 2: few for research purposes. Of course, I asked my Twitter

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Speaker 2: followers what they liked about mafia stories and got a

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Speaker 2: variety of answers. People are fascinated by the strong sense

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Speaker 2: of loyalty, the found family narratives, and the protectiveness, plus

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Speaker 2: the secretive nature of the community. And there's much to

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Speaker 2: be said about size stepping government overreach. Everybody loves sticking

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Speaker 2: it to the man. Add in the mysts about Italian men,

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Speaker 2: their appreciation for good food, good living, and good loving,

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Speaker 2: and well, it can be hard to resist a good

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Speaker 2: mob romance. A lot of these images that feed into

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Speaker 2: the lore of gangsters were shaped by Eunice and Dewey's

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Speaker 2: conviction of Lucky Luciano.

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Speaker 3: Okay, a brief synopsis of America's fascination with the Italian mafia.

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Speaker 2: If I may.

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Speaker 3: In the nineteen thirties, when the Lucky Luciano trial first

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Speaker 3: started to hit the local papers, life imitated art and

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Speaker 3: aught imitated life.

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Speaker 4: In those days.

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Speaker 2: Until the trial of Lucky there may have been rising

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Speaker 2: public panic about the seeping influence of crime and corruption

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Speaker 2: on American life, but the gangsters themselves.

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Speaker 3: American people started to pick up sympathy for these guys.

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Speaker 3: You've got this crazy dichotomy between people fascinated with the

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Speaker 3: mob and people who hated and feared the mob. For

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Speaker 3: very good reason.

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Speaker 2: We can thank Hollywood for that.

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Speaker 3: Those early gangster movies were based on real life crime figures.

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Speaker 2: In the early thirties, Hollywood is turning out film after

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Speaker 2: film about anti hero gangsters. Whether it's Edward g Robinson

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Speaker 2: playing Rico in the nineteen thirty one movie Little.

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Speaker 5: Caesar Allison Rico.

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Speaker 6: I'm gonna talk to you, but you're not gonna hear

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Speaker 6: a word I say.

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Speaker 2: That would have been al Capone.

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Speaker 3: This is inside dope, and if it gets out, it'll

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Speaker 3: be just too bad for somebody.

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Speaker 2: Or Humphrey Bogart as Duke Manty in The Petrified Forest,

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Speaker 2: released in nineteen thirty six.

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Speaker 5: If you'll think I was kitten when I said I'd

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Speaker 5: be glad to knock you up.

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Speaker 3: People all love The Petrified Forest because that's Dilinger. You know,

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Speaker 3: Bogi really nailed it.

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Speaker 6: You're all right, Paly, I got good ideas. I'll try

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Speaker 6: that picture soos that don't hurt.

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Speaker 3: By the early thirties, it di was kissed that people

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Speaker 3: wanted to see the gangsters.

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Speaker 2: The government, unsurprisingly doesn't like this.

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Speaker 7: The gangster is being seen as the hero. We've got

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Speaker 7: to stop that. We've got to stop that.

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Speaker 2: So the government starts promoting their own style of hero

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Speaker 2: in films.

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Speaker 3: Now we're going to make movies about g men, you know,

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Speaker 3: government men, the FBI agents.

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Speaker 2: I don't think the public ever really bought that. After all,

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Speaker 2: having the law as Heroes doesn't exactly fit with most

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Speaker 2: people's experiences.

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Speaker 7: The general attitude towards criminality come nineteen thirty three as well.

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Speaker 7: The gangsters in fact that in many ways they're better

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Speaker 7: than the police. At least they're not being paid by

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Speaker 7: the state. They're not taking money and being paid by

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Speaker 7: the state, so they're cleaner than that.

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Speaker 2: Then there's Dewey, with his investigation into the Mob. This

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Speaker 2: mustachioled crusader works hard to frame Dutch Schultz and then

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Speaker 2: Lucky Luciano as public enemy number one. Dewey does start

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Speaker 2: to have some success here changing public attitudes. He begins

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Speaker 2: using radio broadcasts and newspaper headlines, and the hype of

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Speaker 2: Lucky's trial helps chase away any lingering doubts the public

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Speaker 2: may have about how bad the Mob is. By the

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Speaker 2: time of the guilty verdict, the legend of Lucky Luciano

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Speaker 2: and his downfall is being broadcast triumphantly across America. The

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Speaker 2: gangster who revolutionized the mob has been taken down the

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Speaker 2: boss of bosses laid Low, the original godfather. But even

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Speaker 2: as Lucky is led away from that courtroom in handcuffs,

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Speaker 2: people are already starting as to question the lines between

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Speaker 2: the truth and fiction.

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Speaker 8: Lucky Luciano, who is this guy? Who was he for real?

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Speaker 2: When it comes to unicon Dewey's prized mob conviction? Is

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Speaker 2: it possible the whole story of Lucky is a fraud?

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Speaker 2: From the teams at iHeartRadio and novel I'm Nicole Perkins

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Speaker 2: and this is the Godmother, Episode seven Disorganized Crime. On

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Speaker 2: June eighteenth, nineteen thirty six, twelve days after Lucky Luciano

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Speaker 2: was found guilty on charges of compulsory prostitution, he returns

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Speaker 2: to court for sentencing Dewey, Lucky, and the other co

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Speaker 2: defendants pushed past the crowds and step into the Manhattan courtroom.

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Speaker 2: There they all stand before Judge McCook, a judge you

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Speaker 2: might remember who had been specially appointed to take on

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Speaker 2: organis crime.

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Speaker 8: They were set on putting these guys away for as

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Speaker 8: long as they could, particularly Luciano.

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Speaker 2: A few weeks ago, Lucky had been all arrogance and

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Speaker 2: swagger as he took to the stand in that same courtroom.

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Speaker 2: But if he'd been surprised by the jury's eventual guilty verdict,

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Speaker 2: it was nothing compared to his slack jaw shock. As

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Speaker 2: Judge McCook reads his sentence aloud to the courtroom.

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Speaker 4: Holy Toledo for prostitution, you're giving me a life sentence.

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Speaker 8: Lucky Luciano took the harshest term from Judge McCook.

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Speaker 4: Thirty to fifty years in prison. It was a life sentence.

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Speaker 2: Once all sentences have been handed out, Lucky and the

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Speaker 2: other defendants are taken away for processing.

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Speaker 8: It was quickly determined they needed to be split up

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Speaker 8: and sent to different prisons so that they couldn't reorganize

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Speaker 8: this sex trafficking gang.

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Speaker 2: Lucky heads upstate to a prison on the Canadian border,

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Speaker 2: up the river.

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Speaker 6: As they say, he wasn't taken down by taxes like

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Speaker 6: al Capone or Waxi Garden. He wasn't shot in the

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Speaker 6: head by arrival like Dutch Schalt. He was brought down

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Speaker 6: by a bunch of two bit hores. Most men in

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Speaker 6: the underworld insisted it could not be true.

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Speaker 2: In the end, it's the women who bring Lucky low.

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Speaker 2: Lucky might be down, but he and his team of

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Speaker 2: expensive lawyers are far from done because, let's face it,

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Speaker 2: the prosecution's case hadn't exactly been watertight.

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Speaker 7: At best, questionable, if not don't right illegal.

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Speaker 2: So as that summer of nineteen thirty six passes, Lucky's

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Speaker 2: team starts to work on their appeal in an attempt

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Speaker 2: to swiftly free Lucky from his new home up the river.

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Speaker 2: And while they're working on that, what is Eunice Carter

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Speaker 2: doing what she does?

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Speaker 9: After Luciano's trial, Thomas Dewey's team continues to investigate organized crime.

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Speaker 2: She and Dewey are back in their office on the

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Speaker 2: Woolworth Building's fourteenth floor. She was a relative rookie when

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Speaker 2: she joined Dewey's investigation, But Eunice Harbor's ambitions of becoming

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Speaker 2: a judge one day It's a lofty goal on any scale,

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Speaker 2: let alone for a black woman in the footheels of

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Speaker 2: a vast mountain of systemic racism and sexism in America.

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Speaker 2: But I wouldn't be surprised if Eunice thought why not?

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Speaker 2: Her career as a prosecutor was off to the best

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Speaker 2: possible start with a high profile Lucky conviction. It's easy

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Speaker 2: to imagine Unice back in her office desk, light burning

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Speaker 2: her eyes as she goes back over every piece of

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Speaker 2: evidence in preparation for Lucky so appeal. She has to

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Speaker 2: know everything will be called into question. It was her

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Speaker 2: original work that got the conviction in the first place.

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Speaker 2: She may not have received kudos in public, but if

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Speaker 2: Lucky won his appeal, the prosecution's loss will definitely have

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Speaker 2: her name all over it. By nineteen thirty seven, Lucky's

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Speaker 2: lawyers think a do over might be imminent. There was

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Speaker 2: one obvious weakness in his original conviction.

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Speaker 6: The witnesses the Underworld had a strong self interest in

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Speaker 6: pressing the narrative that these women were unreliable witnesses.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't just what the witnesses had said on the stand,

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Speaker 2: it's the way Eunice and Dewey had coaxed that testimony

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Speaker 2: out of them in the first place.

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Speaker 10: So they were effectively held against their will in communicado

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Speaker 10: unlesson until they cooperate.

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Speaker 2: Lucky and his team are well aware of just how

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Speaker 2: shady the coercion of testimonies had been from the witnesses.

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Speaker 2: In fact, most of America is becoming aware. The public

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Speaker 2: has been reading a slow trickle of allegations that had

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Speaker 2: found their way into the newspapers. Some of the witnesses

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Speaker 2: who had cooperated with the prosecution are now talking to

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Speaker 2: reporters about their experiences. I wonder if Dewey's composure cracks

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Speaker 2: away from the courthouse as he reads the newspaper over

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Speaker 2: his breakfast each morning. Maybe he worries his mustache into disarray,

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Speaker 2: wondering who could be leaking all of this information. Readers

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Speaker 2: aren't just learning about brutal coercion. Eunice and Dewey may

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Speaker 2: have turned the bad cop dial up a little too high,

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Speaker 2: but they'd also been using the good cop routine.

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Speaker 6: It is certainly true that the ones who were willing

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Speaker 6: to talk were given special treatment. They didn't have to

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Speaker 6: stay necessarily in the jails. In some cases, they were

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Speaker 6: put into secret apartments.

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Speaker 10: Dewey's assistant prosecutors was taking the girls out the bar

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Speaker 10: and getting drunk with them.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure Unis wasn't the assistant prosecutor taking the

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Speaker 2: girls out, but who knows.

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Speaker 10: The idea of whining and dining the ones who were

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Speaker 10: released from jail was fairly outrageous.

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Speaker 2: And the newspaper reports are now alleging that this coaxing

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Speaker 2: of the witnesses didn't stop with simple nights out on

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Speaker 2: the town. Apparently, certain promises were made to the witnesses

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Speaker 2: about rewards After a positive conviction, several.

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Speaker 10: Of them received emoluments that were highly unusual. Two of

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Speaker 10: the women were sent on a cruise around the world,

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Speaker 10: paid for by doing as prosecutors.

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Speaker 2: When the trial began, Judge McCook reminded the jurors of

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Speaker 2: the sex workers humanity, But maybe he should have delivered

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Speaker 2: that message to the prosecution as well. These witnesses had

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Speaker 2: been exploited at every turn by their customers, the mob,

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Speaker 2: the prosecution, the defense, and now the press. Yes, everyone

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Speaker 2: wants these little birdies to sing for their supper, with

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Speaker 2: promises of gilded cages for protection, but there's no real

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Speaker 2: safety after you read out the mob is there. The

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Speaker 2: good guys want you to be grateful as if they

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Speaker 2: saved you. The bad guys want you punished, and the

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Speaker 2: press wants you to keep singing. But all those gilded

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Speaker 2: cages flake and rust, So which one do you choose.

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Speaker 2: There's no way to be truly free, is there. Dewey

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Speaker 2: and his team are about to learn the hard way

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Speaker 2: that some of their key witnesses are falling back into

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Speaker 2: the hands of the mob. Koki Flow was one of

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Speaker 2: the prosecution's key witnesses. You remember Koki, She was going

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Speaker 2: through detox on the stand. Koch's testimony, like nearly all

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Speaker 2: the witnesses, had put her life in great danger. No

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Speaker 2: one likes a snitch, especially if they're pointing fingers at

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Speaker 2: the boss of bosses. But if Dewey was worried about

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Speaker 2: the safety of Kochi or any of the rest of

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Speaker 2: the women, he didn't show signs of it, at least

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Speaker 2: not in his media briefings.

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Speaker 3: His press releases afterwards were more of a justification of

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Speaker 3: what had been done during the trial. He was very

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Speaker 3: mute on what steps were being taken to protect the women.

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Speaker 2: After the trial, when Lucky is convicted, Cokey and Millie Harris,

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Speaker 2: one of the other trial witnesses, understandably decide to get

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Speaker 2: the hell out of Dodge. They flee upstate to Rochester,

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Speaker 2: New York, and whole up in a cheap hotel. Breathing

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Speaker 2: fresh air and looking over their shoulders.

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Speaker 10: They began writing these stories that they were hired to

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Speaker 10: write for Liberty Magazine.

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Speaker 2: They were offered the magazine deal in exchange for their

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Speaker 2: life stories.

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Speaker 10: A series of stories was called Underworld Nights.

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Speaker 2: Liberty Magazine is a popular magazine that features stories from

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Speaker 2: people of all walks of life, including celebrities, politicians, and

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Speaker 2: former sex workers turned prosecution witnesses. The series of articles

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Speaker 2: is published.

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Speaker 10: Once they finished that and they were paid for that,

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Speaker 10: they couldn't go back to New York to their old lives,

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Speaker 10: so they decided to go on a road trip and

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Speaker 10: they bought a car. They took the southern route out

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Speaker 10: to California, California.

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Speaker 2: Because Flow and Millie aren't just magazine writers now, in

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Speaker 2: the aftermath of the trial, they'd also been offered a

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Speaker 2: movie deal.

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Speaker 10: They were under the impression that this film deal was

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Speaker 10: imminent and they wanted to be in LA when the

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Speaker 10: film deal went down.

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Speaker 2: The ladies don't end up in Tinseltown right away. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they want to make their money stretch a little longer,

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Speaker 2: or try their hand at living straight. Because before long

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Speaker 2: they're living in Pomona, just outside of LA and they're

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Speaker 2: getting short of cash because they've spent their remaining money

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Speaker 2: on a kind of a strange new business.

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Speaker 10: They decided to open a gas station and Pomona, of

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00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,680
Speaker 10: all things, and the two of them opened a gas

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Speaker 10: station and they ran it for a while, and Koki

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Speaker 10: Flow is okay.

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Speaker 2: With that, But for Millie Harris. It's not so simple.

254
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Speaker 2: Hollywood tends to take its time, and the film about

255
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Speaker 2: their lives still hasn't come about yet. And the gas

256
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 2: station Pomona life isn't quite what she'd anticipated. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: it lacked all the glitz and glam of New York City,

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Speaker 2: and she's a city girl. Plus she's carrying an emotional weight.

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Speaker 10: She wanted to get back to New York.

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Speaker 2: She missed her husband, a husband she had helped put

261
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Speaker 2: away alongside.

262
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Speaker 10: Lucky who was in jail and sing sing.

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Speaker 2: Maybe the guilt is eating away at her.

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Speaker 10: Because Millie Harris, without Kochie Flow's knowledge, started communicating with

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Speaker 10: the lawyers for Luciana who were handling his appeal, and

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Speaker 10: an investigator wanted to get her to recant her testimony,

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Speaker 10: which she did.

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00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 2: Eventually, both women returned to New York together, back to

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Speaker 2: their old lives. Cochie goes back on heroin, she became.

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Speaker 10: An addict again. They both went into a sanitarium to

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Speaker 10: try to take the cure to get off of heroin,

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00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,159
Speaker 10: and it was during that time that they signed these

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Speaker 10: affidavits recanting their testimony.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes the fear of something new is as much of

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00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 2: a prison as anything else. By March nineteen thirty seven,

276
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 2: all the prosecution's key witnesses have officially turned. Eunice and

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00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,919
Speaker 2: Dewey have lost the very foundation of their case against Lucky,

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Speaker 2: and Lucky's defense is picking up steam. All they have

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00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 2: to do now is get these recanted statements in front

280
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Speaker 2: of an appeals court, get the conviction overturned, and then

281
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 2: Lucky will be a free man. Dewey is clearly worried

282
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 2: about this too. He re enlists Eunice as his assistant

283
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Speaker 2: for an April nineteen thirty seven hearing for a retrial.

284
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Speaker 2: But Eunice, Dewey, and Lucky haven't factored in Judge McCook,

285
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,160
Speaker 2: that belligerent, dedicated, anti mob judge who had already come

286
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 2: up with his own plan for this turn and of events.

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00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 10: McCook did something that was highly unusual.

288
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,400
Speaker 2: You see, back in June of nineteen thirty six, when

289
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 2: the Blue Ribbon jury had dropped the bombshell of Lucky

290
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,159
Speaker 2: Luciano's conviction, When Dewey was striding triumphantly from the courtroom

291
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 2: and Eunice was well not there as the drama played out,

292
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: another scene was also taking place, this one behind closed doors.

293
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,680
Speaker 2: Judge McCook, instead of taking a well earned break after

294
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,439
Speaker 2: ruling over the trial of the Century, is in his

295
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,719
Speaker 2: office surrounded by sex workers.

296
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Speaker 10: After the verdict, and while the motion for new trial

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00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 10: was pending, he called all seventy some women who were

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00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 10: still in jail into his chambers.

299
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Speaker 2: These seventy women are the sex workers and madams who

300
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 2: have been witnesses in the trial. And this isn't some

301
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 2: post trial party.

302
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 10: And without any notice to the defense or without any

303
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 10: defense lawyer being present, on the record, with a prosecutor present,

304
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 10: he made them reassert their testimony.

305
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 2: All seventy women are told to swear again that their

306
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 2: testimony was accurate.

307
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 10: Highly unusual to do that, outrageous. Actually, the case really

308
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 10: reeks a prosgatorial misconduct, at least by today's standards.

309
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Speaker 2: These women don't have a cushy life at the start

310
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 2: of Lucky's trial, and we know it took a lot

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00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 2: to persuade them to testify in the first place. Their

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00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 2: lives leading up to the trial had been severely uprooted,

313
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Speaker 2: and it probably didn't get any easier after their names

314
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,399
Speaker 2: had been dragged through the press. Plus, I imagine the

315
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,439
Speaker 2: mob and their defense attorneys probably weren't very sweet when

316
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 2: it came time to convince them to recant. It's been

317
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 2: one harrowing experience after another, and now recanting their testimony

318
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 2: means nothing. Lucky's defense team tries everything they have to

319
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Speaker 2: get the case invalidated. In fact, by October tenth, nineteen

320
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: thirty eight, they've taken this all the way to the

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Speaker 2: highest court in the land.

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Speaker 3: The conviction was analyzed by the appellate and was denied

323
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: for an appeal. They denied a retrial, and they denied

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Speaker 3: a mistrial.

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Speaker 2: Thanks in part to Judge McCook's early intervention.

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Speaker 8: Judge McCook, I'm not saying it was a crooked trial.

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Speaker 8: I'm just saying, in nineteen thirty six, don't be a

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Speaker 8: high profile criminal. They put him away in a manner

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Speaker 8: that today standards I would hope wouldn't hold water.

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Speaker 3: It was not fair, but it was considered fair for

331
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Speaker 3: its time.

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Speaker 2: Dewey and Unice's triumph is now set in stone. It

333
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 2: looks like Charles Lucky Luciano is stuck in jail for

334
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: the foreseeable future, and as he languishes there while his

335
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 2: lawyers try and fail to win an appeal, Eunice and

336
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: Dewey are already busy again. They both continue their fight

337
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 2: against organized crime, although with very different results. Unice is

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00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: now diligently prosecuting Numbers runners in Harlem.

339
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 9: She winds up taking down some numbers racket leaders in Harlem,

340
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 9: which is sort of met with mixed feelings within the

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Speaker 9: Harlem community.

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00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: Unice's success on this front isn't met with blanket approval.

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Speaker 9: There's definitely a lot of people who are very happy

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00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 9: because they do not want there to be criminal activity

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00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 9: in their community. But then also when you look at

346
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 9: the newspapers, not only black owned papers in carl but

347
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,959
Speaker 9: across the city, there's editorials that are like, why is

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00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 9: this woman targeting her own community?

349
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 2: In order to get ahead in the predominantly white world

350
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: of law and justice, Unice has to prosecute people who

351
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: walk the same streets as she does. It's a fine line.

352
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Speaker 2: I imagine she has to prove to her white colleagues

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Speaker 2: she won't be biased in her work, while also trying

354
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Speaker 2: to prove her self trustworthy to her Harlem community.

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Speaker 5: We talk frequently today about the constraints on black womanhood

356
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 5: in the public eye. Right we know that black women

357
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 5: are subjected to more critique, to more hate, to a

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00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 5: different set of standards than other people. These pressure from

359
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 5: within the black community to be a representative of the

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00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 5: race would also presumably have made Unice Carter fuel pressure

361
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Speaker 5: even when she wasn't in white spaces.

362
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: During this time. Whenever Unice Carter opens the paper and

363
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 2: sees her name, it's not with professional accolades or recognition.

364
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: In the society pages, she reads judgments of her loyalty,

365
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 2: her character, and her image. The newspapers that used to

366
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: praise Unice now judge her as harshly as any jury. Meanwhile,

367
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 2: Dewey is receiving a much more positive reception in the media.

368
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: By the end of nineteen thirty seven, Thomas Dewey is

369
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 2: no longer a special prosecutor. He gets sworn in as

370
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: one of five New York District jorneys with a power

371
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: to decide who gets prosecuted. The law was only ever

372
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: a stepping stone. He wants to break into politics. The

373
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: following year, he's on the move again. He runs and

374
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: loses a gubernatorial race, but in nineteen forty two he

375
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 2: runs again and is successfully elected governor of New York.

376
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: His dreams of political office have come true. His rise

377
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: is by any standards, meteoric. He's ridden a wave of

378
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 2: popularity that followed Lucky's prosecution, far higher and faster than

379
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,239
Speaker 2: many might have expected. How did he manage it?

380
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: Not in cooperation with police and federal law enforcement departments throughout.

381
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 10: The United States.

382
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: The only national program that brings you authentic police case

383
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: history gain in Muster.

384
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: In the immediate aftermath of Lucky's trial. Dewey is not

385
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: shy about trumpeting his performance.

386
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 4: He gave his reports on WNYC radio. He also regularly

387
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 4: gave interviews. Dewey, by thirty seven thirty eight was in

388
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 4: the news. He was the guy who put Lucciano away.

389
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 4: He was the gangbuster.

390
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 2: Gangbusters is a law versus gangster fact based radio drama.

391
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: It first aired in nineteen thirty five. It's a program

392
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 2: that Dewey becomes associated with by nineteen thirty six. In

393
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty nine, a book called ninety Times Guilty is published.

394
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: It tells a now familiar story of Lucky Luciano as

395
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: a shadowy mafia figure pulling the strings of the underworld,

396
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: a criminal mastermind. Hickman Powell, a former political reporter for

397
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 2: The New York Herald Tribune writes the book while working

398
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: for Thomas Dewey as a volunteer speechwriter and researcher.

399
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: Ninety Times Guilty came out with the idea that Luciano

400
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: had centralized, organized modernized the American mafia.

401
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: It's a great pr strategy for Dewey to lean into.

402
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 7: He knows that victory of a kingping boss is going

403
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 7: to be incredibly good publicity for him.

404
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: The only problem is this book was largely fiction. It

405
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: combines some of the hype about Lucky that Dewey has

406
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 2: been feeding to the press with some new tar tales.

407
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: The idea that Luciano organized crime in America because he'd

408
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: killed sixty to eighty Greeces as they were called old

409
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: style mafia gangsters. It gives credence to the idea that

410
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: he was a dominant figure in organized crime in America nationally.

411
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 10: It was just a.

412
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: Completely made up story that true crime writers ran with.

413
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: And it isn't just these scenes of vicious mob murders

414
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 2: this book has fictionalized. It's also cementing a bigger lie

415
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: about Lucky too.

416
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 8: I'm not trying to be the cheerleader for Lucky Luciano.

417
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 8: But I realized the opposition had a self righteous, zealous

418
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 8: campaign going and they needed a poster boy.

419
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 7: If you want to make your name, there's no point

420
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 7: in putting some small time hoodlum from downtown Manhattan in prison.

421
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 7: That's not going to make you famous. But you get

422
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 7: the boss of all bosses of the mafia, and suddenly

423
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 7: you were all over the papers.

424
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: Dewey needed to position Lucky as the one true face

425
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: of crime in America. It was vital for people to

426
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: think it had been Lucky pulling all the strings. And

427
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: now that he's been taken down, the war on crime

428
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: has been won.

429
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: By the end of nineteen thirties, with Dewey's success as

430
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: well as Whover's success, American newspapers are saying, well, we've

431
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: beaten organized crime.

432
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 10: Of course they hadn't.

433
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: The book is part of a winning career political strategy.

434
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 8: For doing There's something to be said of criminal poster boys.

435
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 8: Your El Choppels, your John Gotties, your Frank Lucas, your

436
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 8: Lucky Luciano. Who makes them that? Are they really the

437
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 8: face of the problem poster boy for whom.

438
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: Dewey's plan of using an anti organized crime crusade to

439
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: get to power has been used many times since. Remember

440
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: Giuliani versus the Mob in the nineties. Dewey and his

441
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: subsequent imitators are able to gain traction because they're tapping

442
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: into an already existing rich current in America.

443
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 7: White supremacy is absolutely central to organized crime. I don't

444
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 7: think you can discuss one without the other.

445
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: Lucky arriving into the squalor poverty and xenophobia of the

446
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: Lower East Side of New York is an ideal candidate.

447
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: Now, a lot of the mafia stuff is a reworking

448
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: of nativist idea as bad in America has to come

449
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: from somewhere else. It's foreign, it's the other.

450
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: We still see this today, right, If.

451
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 7: It is organized crime within America, it's by so called

452
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 7: immigrant groups, it's Mexican nacos, it's Russian mafia, it's the mafia.

453
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 7: You don't tend to think of organized crime as being American.

454
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 7: I think what happened in the nineteen twenties and nineteen

455
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 7: thirties was this drive to demonize people in a way

456
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 7: that really hadn't been attempted before.

457
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: Organized crime is totally and only to do with Italians

458
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: who've got the braun and Jews who've got the brain

459
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: using those ethnic stereotypes, which is essentially the analysis that

460
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: the US government followed, and certainly true crime writers.

461
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: So you get this fertile ground for Dewey's projection of

462
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: Lucky as the mafia boogeyman, an evil puppet master responsible

463
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: for all of society's ills.

464
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 7: If you create a super demon, you're more likely to

465
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 7: get funding, you're more likely to get political power, you're

466
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 7: more likely to remain in political power. And also if

467
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 7: you screw up, you can say, well, how on earth

468
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 7: do you expect us to be able to deal with this?

469
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 7: They're all over the place. They're far too big for us.

470
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: There's a career opportunity for prosecutors in America that do

471
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: tend to use their trials and convictions to advance their

472
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: political prospects. And I'd argue the prosecution of Lucky Luciana was,

473
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: to use London terms, a fit up.

474
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: In other words, Lucky's trial was rigged. So what is

475
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: the truth about Lucky Luciano? Was he truly the godfather

476
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: of the mafia?

477
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 7: Categorically no, not at all.

478
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: An important career criminal who now other career criminals became

479
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: rich enough during prohibition to be able to afford hotel

480
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: rooms in the ward Off historia. But the mythology stems

481
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: from Dewey calling the greatest gangster in America. He was

482
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: a career criminal, an extortionist in a city full of extortionists.

483
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: It's not that doing in units had the wrong man.

484
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: It was that there never really was just one mafia

485
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: puppet master controlling all vice and organized crime. One thing

486
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: Lucky is guilty of, though, with his scarred face, sharp

487
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: clothes and ritzy address, is standing out.

488
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 8: If you dressed better and had nicer cars than the governor,

489
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 8: people notice, And if you have a wow factor that

490
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 8: makes enemies ears perk up, you're going to become that

491
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 8: de facto face of everything those people are out to get.

492
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: Government liked to make the battle against organized crime good

493
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: versus evil. We are the good guys, they are the

494
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: bad guys. But there's so many different shades of great.

495
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: This framing of Lucky as the boss of organized crime

496
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: is still the way we understand the mafia today. It

497
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: doesn't just come from Hollywood's portrayal of the mob. It

498
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: also comes from a deliberate manipulation of the public and

499
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: the law. It's a falsehood that originates as much from

500
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: our criminal justice system as it does from those la writers'

501
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: rooms Millie and Kokie Flow wanted to get into.

502
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean, The Godfather was a great film, but for me,

503
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: a great misrepresentation of the issue of organized crime in America,

504
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: based partly on the Luciana legend.

505
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 7: Why is it that Luchana has this reputation that he

506
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 7: doesn't deserve. Well, the answer lies really with Thomas Dewey.

507
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 7: Dewey manipulated the press very successfully, and that mythology has

508
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 7: never really been challenged sufficiently, I don't think to this day.

509
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: But what about Eunice Carter? How much is she on

510
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: the hook for this?

511
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 7: Too?

512
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: A team player, which is a good thing, but not

513
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: necessarily if you're in a team that is involved in

514
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: manipulating justice for political advancement, which it was in Dewey's case.

515
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 8: Eunice Carter was probably a good fit for Thomas Dewey's

516
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 8: office because she too was career motivated. She had bigger

517
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 8: barriers and hurdles to jump just because of who she was.

518
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 8: I believe she was probably as determined, if not more

519
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 8: than Dewey to carry out their vision of justice.

520
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 10: But for Unice Carter, Thomas Dewey would not have been

521
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 10: able to convict Lucky Luciano. I don't know that Luciano

522
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 10: would ever have been convicted of anything.

523
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: I guess you could say Eunice Carter is the godmother

524
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: of the Godfather. But while this undercurrent of American life

525
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 2: is giving Dewey's career a seemingly unstoppable upwards trajectory, unsurprisingly,

526
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: it isn't having the same impact on Unice. And as

527
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: America enters the forties and Dewey's career continues to take off,

528
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 2: Eunice's professional life seems to languish. In nineteen thirty eight,

529
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: Eunice is named to Dewey's staff to lead something called

530
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: the Abandonment Bureau of Women's Courts. Here, her time is

531
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: spent on cases covering everything from divorce and marital issues

532
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 2: to custody and child support. She'd stay there until nineteen

533
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: forty five, with none of the upwards career trajectory she'd

534
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 2: hope for after Lucky's prosecution. I can't imagine Eunice's disappointment

535
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 2: as she watches her boss Dewey reached his professional dreams

536
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: based on the success of the case that could not

537
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: have happened without her. Actually, yes, I can imagine it. Sadly,

538
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: it's an old tale. If Thomas Dewey refuses to grab

539
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: drinks with his colleagues so he can keep working, he

540
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 2: may have been seen as dedicated and focused. If Eunice

541
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: Carter refuses, she's seen as not being a team player

542
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: or trying to show up her coworkers. And if she does,

543
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: she could be dinged as not taking her work seriously enough.

544
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: How is she supposed to know how to get ahead

545
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: if every step is used to hold her back. The

546
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: struggle of navigating a predominantly white, predominantly male field is

547
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 2: enough on its own, but add in the concerns of

548
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: your own black community. Why are you a prosecutor? Why

549
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: aren't you looking out for us? Unice's medal is probably

550
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: tested on a daily basis, and as a black woman,

551
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: she's expected to show uncommon resilience. She can't control what

552
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: people think of her, so it wouldn't surprise me if

553
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: she focused on what she could control her pursuit of

554
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: a judgeship. But in the nineteen forties, Unice is not

555
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: really seeing the rewards of her work, Unice has stayed

556
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: close to Dewey, and Dewey has his sight set on

557
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: a political win far higher than Governor. He's inching closer

558
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: to the White House. Surely it's just a matter of

559
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 2: time before he brings Unis along with him. Right, He's

560
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: become a bit like found family for Unice, brought together

561
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: by the intense, complicated loyalty of the mafia. But family

562
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: can also be a source of betrayal. If Unice hadn't

563
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: learned that yet, she was about to find out. That's

564
00:37:52,040 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: coming up in episode eight of The Godmother. On this

565
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 2: episode of a Godmother, you heard Hi.

566
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: My name is Ellen Paulson. I research and I write

567
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 3: books about women who were involved with notorious gangsters in desperadoes.

568
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 11: My name is Christopher Alfhelps and I worked for the

569
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 11: University of Exeter. I've published two books and several articles

570
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 11: on the organized crime in the United States. I tend

571
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 11: to specialize in a periage from eighteen sixty five to

572
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 11: nineteen forty one.

573
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 8: My name is Christian SIBERLINI and I am an organized

574
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 8: crime historian and author.

575
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 4: My name is Robert Whalen, and I'm an Emerathus Professor

576
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 4: of history at Queen's University of Charlotte here in Charlotte,

577
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 4: North Carolina.

578
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 10: My name is Chuck Greeves. Before becoming a writer, I

579
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 10: spent twenty five years as a Los Angeles trial lawyer.

580
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 10: My fourth novel was basically fictionalization of the famous nineteen

581
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 10: thirty six vice trial.

582
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 6: I'm Debbie Applegate. I'm a historian and biographer, and I

583
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 6: am the author of Madam, The Biography of Polyadler Icon

584
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 6: of the Jazz Age.

585
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 9: I am Claire White, and I am the director of

586
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 9: Education at the Mob Museum in downtown Las Vegas.

587
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 2: I'm Sarah J. Jackson.

588
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 5: I am an Associate Professor of Communication at the Annenberg

589
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 5: School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania and an

590
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 5: affiliate with the Africana and African American Studies Program Here.

591
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm Mike woodowis author of Organized Crime in American Power

592
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: and a teacher at the University of West of England.

593
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: And I think, with Christopher we are professionally story in

594
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: to look at the issue of organized crime in particular.

595
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: The Godmother is produced by Novel for iHeartRadio. For more

596
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 2: from novel, visit novel dot Audio. The Godmother is host

597
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: and written by me Nicole Perkins. Our producer is Leona Hamid.

598
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 2: Additional production from Ajuajima Broumpong, Ronald Young Junior and Zaiana Yusuf.

599
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: Our editor is Ajua Jima Broompong. Additional story editing from

600
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: Max O'Brien and Mith Lee Raw, and our researcher is

601
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: Zaiana Yusuf. Additional research from Mohammed Ahmed. David Waters is

602
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 2: our executive producer. Field production by Tnito Romani and Pallas Shaw,

603
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempsen. Our score

604
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: was written, performed and recorded by Jeff Parker. Music supervision

605
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 2: by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. Production management and endless

606
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 2: patients from Sharie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe. Fact

607
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: checking by Fendell Fulton and Dania Suleiman. Story development by

608
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: Madeline Parr, Jess Swinburne and Zaiana Yusuf. Willard Foxton is

609
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: our creative director of Development. Special thanks to Leah Carter,

610
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 2: Stephen Carter, Angela J. Davis, Andrew Fernley, Marilyn Greenwald, Sondra Lebedy,

611
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 2: Katherine Godfrey, Nadia Maidie, Amalia Sortland, Shawn Glenn, Neil Krishnan,

612
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: Julia Bromberg, Katrina Norvelle, Carly Frankel, and all the team

613
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 2: at w Emmy Novel