1 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: guest is Tommy Oliver, a producer who was also founder 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: and CEO of the Confluential Company based in the mar 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Vista area of Los Angeles. I met Oliver a few 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: months ago at the Producer's Guild of Americas produced by conference. 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: He's a sharp speaker with a very strong point of 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: view on how entrepreneurs can find opportunity in film and TV, even. 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: When it means working in the land of the giants. 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: Before his panel was over, I'd already decided I would 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: reach out to him for a Strictly Business interview. As 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: we met a little later that day over coffee, he 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: confessed that he's a long time listener of this podcast. 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: Truly Kismet. 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: Confluential has a big production space and facility that is 17 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: humming with a lot of activity. The company does some 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: production services business as well as investing in its own projects. 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: The company is strategy is guided by someone who calls 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: himself a weirdo with a knack for both the art 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: and commerce of moving pictures. Stick around This lively conversation 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: is coming right up after this break, and we're back 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: with the sit down with Tommy Oliver, founder and CEO 24 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: of the Confluential Company. 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: Tommy Oliver, founder and CEO of the Confluential Company, thank 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 2: you so much for inviting me down here to your 27 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: Marina del Rey Diggs. Quite an impressive space. You've got 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: a lot of room, a lot of equipment, you've got 29 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: post production, You've got all kinds of production equipment and facilities. 30 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: It's really quite a it's quite an operation here. 31 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 3: Thank you, and thank you so much for having me 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 3: a long time listener, and I think this is my 33 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 3: favorite podcast, so it's quite a treat to be able 34 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: to talk to you. 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: Well. We are beyond honored. You and I met a 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 2: couple months ago at the produce By conference, which is 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: one of my favorites because it does dive deep into 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: the nuts and bolts of producing. And I as soon 39 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: as as soon as I saw you speaking on the panel, 40 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: I was like, first of all, how do I not 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 2: know Tommy Oliver? And second how fast are we going 42 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: to get him on the Strictly Business podcast? So appreciate 43 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: you making the time for me. But in all you 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: know you here at Confluential, you have clearly a thriving business. 45 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: You've got a lot going on. Walked we walked around, 46 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: and you told me about this is in post and 47 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: this is just about to start. Let me start by 48 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: asking you where, at this moment of contraction and transition 49 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 2: for the entire business, where are you finding opportunities? 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: I think that the business right now is so different 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 3: than it was even a year ago. 52 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: That's scary, but it's true. 53 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: And if we are not constantly trying to figure out 54 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 3: what's working, what's not, where, where people are, where places are, 55 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 3: it's not going to work. And so for us, Look, 56 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: we started financing films about two years ago, and the 57 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 3: first three projects we puted money into. We're all at 58 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 3: sundance and that sounds great, but it was one of 59 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: the worst sundance years for sales and I don't know 60 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 3: last twenty years. 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, they forgot to hold the sweepstakes last year. Everybody 62 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: was talking about it, and in this year everybody was 63 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: still commenting about how last year was so muted. 64 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 3: Exactly, and even this year, where there were some bright spots, unfortunately, 65 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: when you look at the detail, the number of movies 66 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: that were great but just have not sold is alarming. 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 3: Where you could do everything right, you could make a 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: movie that gets into Sundance, that has great reviews, and 69 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 3: then you not only wind up with in a place 70 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 3: where you don't have good offers, you could have no 71 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: offers at all. And so the question is why, Well, 72 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 3: you have places that we're doing business in a certain 73 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: way where Netflix or Hulu or Amazon, where they were 74 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,559 Speaker 3: doing these single picture licensing deals for sub five million 75 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 3: dollars and there was a thriving market. Well that's gone 76 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 3: away because the way that those places evaluate success, where 77 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 3: before it was subs at all, calls well, no, it's 78 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 3: about profitability, right, And well, those movies, even if people 79 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: care about them, aren't the things that they think moved 80 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 3: the needle. Well, then we're not going to make those 81 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 3: movies and we're not going to make those acquisitions, and 82 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 3: so it changes what works. But also beyond that, look, 83 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 3: even when things are good, they're okay for the types 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: of projects that we make, and which is we focus 85 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: on bipod stories and so we only put money into 86 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 3: projects from career as of color. That's it, and so 87 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 3: when things are great, it's maybe okay to good. When 88 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 3: things are bad, it's horrible because there is those sort 89 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 3: of projects are often at the back of the queue. 90 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: And we've gotten to a place now, unfortunately, where there's 91 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: also a black tax on projects. And so for us 92 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: and for me, it has completely changed the calculus around 93 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: what makes sense where the opportunities are. Because I'm not 94 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: going to stop trying to do the things that we 95 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 3: can be proud of. I'm not going to stop trying 96 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: to support the creators who we should be in business with, 97 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 3: but we've got to be able to do it responsibly 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: otherwise we don't get to keep making those projects. And 99 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 3: so what does that look like? 100 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 2: Okay, can I actually ask you? Can I ask you 101 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: what when you refer to a black tax, can you 102 00:05:58,760 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 2: say what what that means? 103 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 3: It means that there was a period where, in response 104 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 3: to all of the really crappy things that were going 105 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 3: on in this country, that people and companies made commitments 106 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 3: to black storytelling and to bipox storytelling. And a way 107 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: that right now is the pendulum has swung the other 108 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 3: way where it was, Hey, we want those projects and 109 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 3: we're going to prioritize, make it happen, and we're going 110 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: to spend. And now those projects have gotten to a 111 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: place where they are devalued and the amount of money 112 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 3: that you spend on something is no longer the amount 113 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: of money that it's worth to so many other places unfortunately, 114 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 3: And so that means that we have to evaluate what 115 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 3: that looks like. 116 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: And so I can appreciate what you're saying, and I 117 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: will tell you that I know many many smart producers 118 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 2: who in the moment in twenty twenty were telling me 119 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: that this is now see where we are in three years. 120 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: So the smartest people I know that have been working 121 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: in the in this area said that in the moment, 122 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: and it was sobering then and it's sobering now to 123 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: you know that that is that that is just a 124 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: sad reality, especially the time when across the board everybody 125 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: is kind of. 126 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 3: Agree agree where. But again, people had the really splashy 127 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: announcements and you actually look at how much of what 128 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: they committed was deployed. You be hard priced to find 129 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 3: a lot of these places that get into the double 130 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: digit percentage where huge announcement, what did you deploy four percent? 131 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: Five percent? Maybe I'm a I'm a bit of aware 132 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 3: now and that I'm as much of a creative as 133 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 3: I am a business person and as much of a 134 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 3: business person as Amazachi, and I've seen the perils. I've 135 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 3: seen the way that you have a project that is 136 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: really special, and in order for it to make it, 137 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: it has to conform to some body's limited vision of 138 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: what it should be. And so for the for most 139 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: of the history of cinema, call it one hundred years 140 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 3: or so, there was one kind of person who could 141 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: say yes to what made it to the screen, and 142 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 3: so since white men, that's it. And so if projects 143 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: didn't conform to their view of it, and not that 144 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: there weren't people who were well meaning and wanted to 145 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: be able to tell other stories, but it was still 146 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 3: their understanding of what made sense. And so oftentimes you'd 147 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: wind up with something that in order to get it 148 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: through you got to compromise, and then compromise, and then compromise, 149 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: and then what comes out on the other side is 150 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 3: something that's barely recognizable and doesn't have that sense of 151 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 3: authenticity that's required for it to resonate. And then when 152 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 3: it doesn't work and it's not supported from the marketing side, 153 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 3: it becomes a data point for why these movies don't work, 154 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 3: and then you don't to make those movies. But it 155 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 3: was the crappy version of it to begin with, right, 156 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: And so it's. 157 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: The second complete vicious cycle, correct. 158 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 3: And so that's what I wanted us to be able 159 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: to try to avoid as best we can. And so 160 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 3: you take a movie like Fancy Dance where it's a 161 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 3: native writer, director or co writer and native leads beautiful script. 162 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: Nobody wanted to make that movie. Nobody wanted to put 163 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: the money up where there were lots of people talking 164 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 3: about how much we support native filmmakers, we support Native cinema, 165 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: and Erica Trimblay, the writer director, said this where everybody's 166 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 3: saying that, but when it comes time to kind of check, 167 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 3: everybody saying, no, we can't do it, No we're not 168 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 3: gonna do that, or it's it just doesn't get through. 169 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 3: And so we were the only people. So was us. 170 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: We did ninety percent of it, and Niniingng Manjovi were 171 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 3: partners as well, and they came in as well, they 172 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 3: were in before us. But it was the sort of 173 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: thing where again everybody talks about it, but if you 174 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: want to do it, you got to start making compromise, 175 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,599 Speaker 3: you got to start having white leads, you got to 176 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 3: start doing things that turn it into something very different. 177 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 3: And so I knew what this film could do. I 178 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: knew what the potential was, I knew what the audience was. 179 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: But for most places where it's like that movie's not 180 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: getting made in the studio system, that movie's barely getting 181 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: made independently. But it's a movie that works creatively, it's 182 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 3: a movie that should get made. It's a movie that 183 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: there's an audience for. And so it's about finding those 184 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 3: opportunities with people who are going to do the work 185 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 3: where Erica is so incredibly talented. Same thing with some 186 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 3: with the movie like Going to Mars, the Nikki Chimani projects, 187 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: which it's it's a tragedy that I had the opportunity 188 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: to come in in any way for that movie, where 189 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 3: they were shooting long before I came along and looking 190 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 3: for money. They went through labs, they went through all 191 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 3: sorts of the typical ways of trying to find money, 192 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,719 Speaker 3: and nobody, nobody said yes. And the folks who were 193 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: interested wanted a radically different, sanitized version of the film. 194 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 3: So it's either you have no money or you compromise 195 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 3: so insanely that the movie is barely recognizable and it's 196 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: not what it should be. And so one of the 197 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: things that Joe Michelle, the directors of the film, talked 198 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 3: about was how what they appreciated most was that I 199 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: saw what they were trying to do and I supported that. 200 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 3: And that movie went on to win the Grand Jury 201 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 3: Prize at Sentence, it was shortlisted for an Oscar, it's 202 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 3: currently nominated for an Emmy, and that movie works. And 203 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: so both Fancy Dens and Going to Mars are unmitigated 204 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 3: successes creatively and financially. But there are the types of 205 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 3: things that, for one reason or another, people are afraid of, 206 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 3: and so I wanted us to be able to be 207 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: in a position because I knew there was opportunity. I 208 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 3: knew there were projects that made sense creatively and financially, 209 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 3: and I wanted to be able to do this. 210 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: Fundamentally, when you are pitching a project and something that 211 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: you want to make, you want to make the story 212 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: that the filmmaker wants to make, and you is it 213 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: Are you able to sell those projects when you can 214 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 2: show somebody a completed film and say this is our 215 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: vision and then and then is it easier to find 216 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 2: a home for a more specific project once you can 217 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: show the film versus asking somebody to bet on your 218 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: vision that hasn't been expressed yet. 219 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that shows up in different ways. So my 220 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: wife and I create a show called Black Love. And 221 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 3: the way we did that was we shot the entire 222 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: first season, We cut the first episode, we cut a sizzle, 223 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 3: we wrote a treatment, and then we take it out. 224 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 3: And had we not done that, and this is a 225 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: series that ran for six seasons and was tremendously successful 226 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: in all the ways, that show would have never gotten 227 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 3: off the ground, And so had we pitched it, because 228 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: if you think about it, it's just black couple sitting 229 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 3: down talking about their marriage and what makes it work. 230 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 3: We're not cutting away to them walking in the park 231 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 3: or making avocado toes in the kitchen or any of 232 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: those things. Table No, there's also none of that at all, 233 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 3: And so we're trying to do it in a way 234 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 3: that is entertaining but it's also positive. And so that 235 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: show would have never gotten traction. 236 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: If it had been oh, we already each other's throats 237 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: in there? 238 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, And so had it, it would have had 239 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: to have morphed into something different. And so instead of 240 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 3: trying to get somebody to take it on faith, it's like, no, 241 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: you can see exactly what this is. You can see 242 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 3: what it looks like. And so we've done the same 243 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: thing in a number of ways. There was a dot 244 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 3: that we did that I directed and produced called forty 245 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 3: Years Prisoner, and so we shot the entire thing, financed 246 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 3: it out of pocket, and then took it out and 247 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 3: HBO came on after we were done with production, which 248 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: also we're able to license it to them instead of 249 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 3: it being a commission. And so it's something that it's 250 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: about creating leverage, but also finding those places where there's 251 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 3: an opportunity because we understand the market and we value 252 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: we know what the value will be later on, and 253 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 3: so sort of with fancy dents. Even after the movie 254 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: premiered at Sundance and was well reviewed, there was a 255 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: period where it wasn't a are really valued where for 256 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: as good as the film is and for as much 257 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 3: love as it received, the before Killers of the Flower 258 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 3: Moon came out and before people realized that Lily is Lily. 259 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 3: The highest offer we got for that film was forty 260 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 3: thousand dollars. Forty thousand dollars. 261 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: Yes, from like for a streaming platform. 262 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 3: We didn't even get a streaming offer, and so that 263 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: was what it was. 264 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: But you can't release a film for forty thousand dollars. 265 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: I can't do anything. We can't pay for the paper 266 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: deliverables for forty thousand dollars and so but that was 267 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: what it was. 268 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: Like. 269 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: That was like a starting offer. 270 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 3: That was the highest offer that we received from any place. 271 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 3: And so but we knew the film had a different life. 272 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: We knew the film was more valuable, and so we 273 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: chose to wait and we chose to understand that Look, 274 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 3: things will change. And so that's the difference between how 275 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: people are valuing something, whether in general or at a 276 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: moment in time, and knowing when to do a deal. 277 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: And so it's another way that continues to manifest itself 278 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: is when you look at how independent films are put together, 279 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: which includes foreign presales, well foreign pre sales, for the 280 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 3: kind of projects that we do where you've got blackfaces 281 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:28,119 Speaker 3: and bioploc faces, they still tend to be significantly undervalued. 282 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: That international divide. 283 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 3: Iss So do we do a deal where we're maybe 284 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: getting twenty percent of what it's actually worth, or do 285 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 3: we just keep that ourselves because we know what the 286 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: real value is and we spend the money and we 287 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 3: position it for success later on. And so those are 288 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: the types of things where we can be creative about 289 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: the financing. We can be smart about it because we 290 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: can bet in the right ways for the things that 291 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: have outside potential, because we know what the audience is, 292 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: we know how to deliver it creatively, and so if 293 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 3: we are hitting on the things that we need to do, 294 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: then we should be in a good place. And especially 295 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 3: if we're being responsible about it. None of this works 296 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 3: if we're overspending. None of this works if we're not 297 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 3: understanding where the marketplace is or how things have shifted. 298 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 3: In case the point and a week and a half, 299 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 3: we are starting a movie and it's our first horror film, 300 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 3: and so it's it's a really fun one from Jerar McMurray, 301 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 3: who's the writer, co writer, director, and we're producing it 302 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 3: and fully financing it. And I've never done horror movie 303 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 3: prior to this, but it's one of the things that 304 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: right now and so and Gerard had a really great 305 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: approach to how we're going to do this, and he's 306 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 3: somebody who I've known and wanted to work with, and 307 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 3: so it makes sense. We're doing a for responsible number. 308 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: We have a kick ass gass and mark my words, 309 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 3: when I say you this movie is going to work. 310 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: I feel I can feel your conviction, which is awesome. 311 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: It's going to work. And so we can retweet this, 312 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: we can share this clip in eight months when this 313 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 3: movie is working. And I'm telling everybody, this movie is 314 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 3: going to work in all the ways. 315 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: Tommy Oliver is laying it down right now, folks, this 316 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: movie is gonna work. I don't want I mean you 317 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: know you can. You can't be a good producer if 318 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 2: you don't have that. If you don't wake up with 319 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: that conviction. I'm excited for you. I want it to 320 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: work for you. 321 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 3: But that conviction is rooted in doing the work. That 322 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: conviction is understanding the marketplaces. It's rooted in understanding what 323 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: the number should be. It's rooted in understanding what the 324 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 3: cast should be. It's rooted in understanding what the plan 325 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 3: should be. It's rooted in and research and conversations and 326 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 3: being close to the market and talking to distributors and 327 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: sales ass and so it's not just this idea of 328 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: I'm I mean arrogant or I'm hoping, because hope is 329 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: not a plan. The other one was Black Wealth, and 330 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 3: so the series, it was really transformative in a lot 331 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 3: of ways for us. Where the way that we did 332 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: it again, we shot the entire thing, the entire first season, 333 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 3: and when we went out, my wife Cody really wanted 334 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 3: it to land it own and own was fortunately into 335 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 3: the idea of it, and as we started the conversation, 336 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: I told him that I wanted to license it to them, 337 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 3: and they were like, you gonna do what? Like I 338 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: want to license it? They were like, huh, Like I 339 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 3: want to license it? In mind you I think we 340 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: had done or I had done two movies at that point. 341 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: There was no company, there was no apparatus, there was 342 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 3: no facility. But I knew what it could turn into. 343 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: And it's the sort of thing that sounds a bit crazy, 344 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 3: but you see what it did turn into. And so 345 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 3: it's like I knew what the opportunity was and I 346 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 3: pushed in a big way, and so we wound up 347 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 3: taking a commonly low license fee for season one. But 348 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 3: then it premiered as the most viewed unscripted series debut 349 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 3: in the network's history, and we poured all the money 350 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 3: that we got from that series back into doing what 351 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 3: into both building the company and serving the community and 352 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 3: so and from events to expanding our offering from black 353 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 3: Love dot Com and Summon and things that we in 354 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 3: the beginning were doing at a loss because we believed 355 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 3: that it was building what we were doing, but also 356 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 3: being creative about around how we were doing it. And 357 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 3: one thing that I remember from season one was that 358 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: as we were finishing the first season and I was 359 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 3: looking for a post house to do deliverables and color 360 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 3: on it, it was going to take most of the 361 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: money that we had for the license fee, and I 362 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 3: was like, that doesn't work. So I built it myself. 363 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 3: I built our first color suite and we did all 364 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 3: the color in house, and I did the deliverables myself 365 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 3: for season one, and from there we continue to use 366 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 3: that system and then build other systems so that we're 367 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 3: able to keep money in house instead of putting the 368 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 3: money in places where it doesn't support our growth. 369 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: Don't go anywhere. 370 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Tommy Oliver, founder 371 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: and CEO of the Confluential Company, and we're back with 372 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: more from Confluential Company founder Tommy Oliver. 373 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: Now, Black Love Itself. I mean, it's a multimedia franchise 374 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: for you myself, and so you own it. Lock Stock 375 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: and Barrel is opposed to own their model, truly, with 376 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: all kidding aside that that model is great. We love it. 377 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: We'll own everything. We'll give you a little taste and 378 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: you came in and the change the. 379 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 3: And if we hadn't done that, we wouldn't have been 380 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 3: able to build in the way that we did. There 381 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 3: would be no summit, there would be no deals with 382 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 3: everybody from our Disney to Cadillac to Target and Shame, 383 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 3: Moisture and Chase and all the partners that we're able 384 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 3: to do cool stuff with, or our podcast like The 385 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: Mama's Den, or the digital series that we do or 386 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 3: are We've got three million plus social followers and all 387 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 3: of that. None of that would have happened if had 388 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: been a traditional deal. 389 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 2: Very much. So let me ask you, how did Confluential 390 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 2: get to the point where you have the luxury You 391 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 2: have the ability to say no, we're going to wait. Obviously, 392 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: that takes money and resources and even your ability to 393 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: on the front end, get in there and be even 394 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: part of the financing. How did you get to that place? 395 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 2: How did you build the company to where you were 396 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: able to be in a place to make those kind 397 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: of significant decisions and basically bet on yourselves. 398 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 3: It's hard, It was hard, It is hard. It continues 399 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:12,479 Speaker 3: to be hard. The marketplace is incredibly challenging. But it 400 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 3: came down to wanting to better ourselves and that that 401 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 3: weird combination of you know, I'm a I'm a I'm 402 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 3: a numbers guy, I'm a business person, I'm a creative, 403 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 3: I'm a writer director, but I have an econ background, 404 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 3: business background, and I love I don't know get I 405 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 3: get as excited about breaking story or finding a cool 406 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 3: shot as I do about figuring out how to figure 407 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: out the financial model for film. And so a couple 408 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 3: of years ago we raise money and so with the 409 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 3: help of Globe and Sex, we put together a plan 410 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 3: to figure out what this will look like. And the numbers, 411 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 3: I mean, you look at how bipop films perform, what 412 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 3: the demand is for those projects. On a cash and 413 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: cash return, they do better, and we sort of know 414 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 3: that and totally, but the numbers also supported and so 415 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: that were to figure out how to be able to 416 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 3: make that a reality. And so I think we close 417 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 3: a little over two years ago and we've been trying 418 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 3: to make it work ever since. 419 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: What did the process of being out there trying to 420 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: raise money with Goldman Sachs at the highest institutional finance levels. 421 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: What did that teach you about what that world thinks 422 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: about and wants from the content business from TV and film. 423 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 2: When they are thinking about putting money into a TV 424 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: show or film, what do they want to hear from 425 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 2: the people that they're talking to. 426 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 3: It's a really good question, and the answer is that 427 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 3: it depends significantly on who you're talking to, and so 428 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 3: the I don't know, it really depends and so there's 429 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 3: not one one answer. And so for me, it came 430 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 3: down to what am I looking for and trying to 431 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:20,479 Speaker 3: identify what that right partner would look like because we 432 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 3: had we had a number of term sheets that were 433 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 3: center away and all of them made sense. And I 434 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 3: think that finding the right partner is incredibly important. And 435 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 3: so the same way that you take your time when 436 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 3: you are trying to find somebody to merit or to 437 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 3: have as a business partner, and so those decisions are 438 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 3: going to have it's going to change your life in 439 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 3: one way or another. And so it's about making sure 440 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 3: that you understand if there is potential alignment and what 441 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 3: it can look like in doing your research, which I'm 442 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 3: going to keep going back to that. For me, I'm 443 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 3: a research and that that process really was a front 444 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 3: row seat for me into something that I'd read about, 445 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 3: but I'd never raised money in that way and never 446 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 3: raised institutional capital, and so trying to understand what they 447 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 3: valued and how they thought about it and what they 448 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 3: were looking for and oh, this type of company would 449 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 3: probably be a terrible partner and they only care about 450 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 3: this piece, or there are people that are doing it 451 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: for different reasons. So it really comes down to being 452 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 3: able to know what you want and being able to 453 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 3: find a partner that's aligned with you so that you 454 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: can win together or go through hard times together, like marriage. 455 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 3: It's not all great, and so the industry, as you mentioned, 456 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 3: and as we talked about, it sucks right now to 457 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 3: use a technical. 458 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 4: Term, it's a year of digging out. It feels like, yeah, 459 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 4: we're there's so much unease, there's so much fear. 460 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: I've never seen a time when virtually every studio is 461 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: in some kind of disarray. There's all you know, there's 462 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 2: it's it's a business. It's summer up, summer down. But 463 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: in the last couple of years you've had, for sector 464 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 2: wide reasons, you had everybody being in some form of disarray, 465 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: and that that's weird for Hollywood. In my thirtie ish 466 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: years of covering business, I've I've never seen that before. 467 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: So some new every day around here. 468 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 3: And so look, I mean we do docs, we do 469 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,199 Speaker 3: doc series, we do lots of other things, and so 470 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 3: like those things are also in challenge places where the 471 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: dock market has collapsed. 472 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been. We've definitely been writing about that where 473 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: it had been so frothy. You know, if I understand right, 474 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: you do. There are some things that you do as 475 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: a production services company where you provide the provide the 476 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 2: camp and the crew, and then there are some there 477 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,479 Speaker 2: you're in house projects that you produce and are there 478 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: are those two poles of your business. So the. 479 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 3: Side where we're third party production company is new for us, 480 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 3: and so we've done for all of ourself we've done 481 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 3: thus far we've been the production services company and so 482 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 3: which is from physical production and production through post production 483 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 3: and deliverable set everybody from. 484 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 2: A big room here, and that's appropriately cold. They're always cold. 485 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: This one is appropriately cold. 486 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 3: So you know, we've delivered to HBO and Apple and 487 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 3: all those things, and we've never really operated as a 488 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 3: third party production service company, but we we've started. And 489 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 3: so there's a project that we have at Hulu which 490 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 3: happened because there's a really creative showrunner who had this 491 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 3: idea that he wanted to Hulu with and Onyx and 492 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 3: it like did. And so what usually happens is these 493 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 3: the studio or the distributor says, cool, we like it. 494 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 4: You need a. 495 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 3: Production company or production service company, and so they set 496 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 3: up meetings. And this is a story that is culturally specific, 497 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: and the way that it typically shakes out is that 498 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of the projects that even when they're 499 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 3: culturally specific, have white production services companies behind them. 500 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: Sanford and Soon was written entirely by white people, which 501 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: is case in point. 502 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 3: And so this creative went back to Tonyx and they're like, 503 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 3: is there not one company? Is there not one production 504 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 3: services company where we can have people who look like 505 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 3: us when we're trying to tell this story that is 506 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 3: so culturally specific, and so we had a call and 507 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 3: so what the exec said was, look, there's one company 508 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 3: that we can think of, and if you can get 509 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 3: them to say yes, then cool. And so I set 510 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 3: up the meeting and we hit it off in a 511 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 3: big way. And so now we're doing that. But of 512 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: course where things are these days, nothing is very few 513 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 3: things are straight to greenlight, and so we're in a 514 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 3: development deal with them and we can one as creative 515 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 3: partners and as the production company, and we'll do all 516 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 3: the production services. And so we're doing more of those 517 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 3: things because we've built out the capabilities for our own self, 518 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 3: where we have equipment, we have facilities, we have the people, 519 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 3: and so being able to be that company that is 520 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 3: culturally sensitive, that has the ability where we are an 521 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 3: approvable product service company everywhere and so where we've got 522 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 3: deals with Amazon and Peacock and HBO and Apple and 523 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: have delivered to these places, so we can do that, 524 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 3: and so we're starting to do that in addition to 525 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: anything that we are doing, anything we're putting money into 526 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: where the production services company on. 527 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 2: Do you think will that long term be a help 528 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: to have kind of a different revenue stream coming in. 529 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: And so for the Confluential company and Black Love is 530 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 3: a different piece of this, which we can talk about 531 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 3: that for a whole podcast as well, but for the film, TV, 532 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: dog doc series side of it, the model Israeli producer fees, 533 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 3: production services fees, and then project participation. And so it's 534 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 3: those three things and the way that we're set up. 535 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 3: We need all three in order for it to make sense, 536 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 3: because producer fees have been shrinking and they're the thing 537 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 3: that gets i don't know, keeps getting pushed down and 538 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 3: push back. Production services are good, but for us, we 539 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 3: need to be able to participate in the things that 540 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 3: are working, and so the things that have the ability 541 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 3: to be that outsize, to have that outside return where 542 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 3: oh this makes sense, where we can develop it and 543 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 3: we can participate in a big way. And one of 544 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 3: the one of the things that sort of pushed me 545 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: in that place was first studio movie I ever did 546 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 3: was a movie called The Perfect Guy and movie costs 547 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 3: twelve million dollars, did sixty million of the box office 548 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 3: after opening up number one in the US, did another 549 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 3: forty million and ancillaries, and I made almost no money 550 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 3: off of that. Movie, and so I had a tiny 551 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: producer fee and made a little bit after that, and 552 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 3: going back to the idea of understanding alignment where I'm 553 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 3: perfectly happy for our partners to make money, but we 554 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 3: should be winning together. And so for me, that wasn't 555 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 3: a model that I was interested in. And which is 556 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 3: where the participation piece for us the company matters where 557 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 3: were if we're doing the hard work, if we are 558 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: figuring out how to make sure these things are as success, 559 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 3: where we should be able to participate. And in the 560 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: same way, we do incredibly fair deals with talent, with writers, 561 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: with directors, with actors, where I don't want it to 562 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 3: be oh no, we have this definition and your definition 563 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 3: as such that you are buried behind so many other 564 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 3: phantom costs where you're never going to make money. No, 565 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 3: So back to Koons, which is the horror movie that 566 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: we're doing. We're all going to make money off of 567 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 3: this movie. The talent's going to make money, the director 568 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 3: is going to make money, the writer is going to 569 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: make money. Because we have fair definitions, we're doing a 570 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 3: full responsible number and that's how we try to operate. 571 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: And I mean this almost sounds like a rhetorical question, 572 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: But the conversations change in terms of partners and distributors 573 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: and even dealing with talent when you have more control 574 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: over the finance. 575 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 3: Entirely, entirely, And so it's one of the most disheartening 576 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 3: things that that happens is creatives, bipod creatives, they often 577 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 3: need to defend culture and explain why this thing matters 578 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: to the story, and in a way that can be 579 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 3: demeaning when you don't have people who value them as 580 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 3: storytellers or understand what they're trying to do. And so 581 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 3: the and it doesn't always happen like there're sometimes where 582 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 3: partners step up and they're great, but for us that 583 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 3: that's not the case. 584 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: And so. 585 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 3: Because I'm also you know, I'm a wado where I'm 586 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 3: I'm the filmmaker, financier hybrid. 587 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 2: I will not endorse the weirdo description. But let me. 588 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 3: The first time I remember having a camera in my 589 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 3: hand was in high school, and it wasn't anything particularly creative, 590 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 3: and it was just the camera and shooting, whether it 591 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 3: was an assembly or doing something. And then there was 592 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 3: this class that I took before school and it was 593 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 3: it allowed for sort of creative exploration and that was 594 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 3: when I first started working with final cut and actually 595 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,959 Speaker 3: three D modeling randomly as well. 596 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: You said you were a techie. 597 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 3: I am a techy very myself, and so that was 598 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 3: where it started. And when I got to school, I 599 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 3: double major in economics digital media and my owner business 600 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: and Carnegie Mellon and I, I don't know, I grew 601 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 3: up in the hood and so like I had five 602 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 3: jobs paying for school, so I had scholarships and and loans, 603 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 3: and I remember my sophomore year, the way that I 604 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 3: ate was by playing poker. I made a lot of 605 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 3: money playing poker and. 606 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 2: Playing for food. You had the ultimate motivation. 607 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 3: I did look food and textbooks. Textbooks were crazy expensive. 608 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 3: And then my junior year, I was teaming a class 609 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 3: called Multimedia Authoring and one of my other businesses was 610 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 3: shooting and cutting stuff. And so two of my students 611 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 3: wrote a feature script and because of the other stuff 612 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 3: I was doing, they asked me to produce that film. 613 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 3: And I had never produced anything scripted, not a short, 614 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 3: not a two page anything. But as somebody who likes 615 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: a challenge and thought it would be fun, I was like, sure, 616 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 3: let's cool. When wrote a business plan and raise I 617 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 3: hold ten thousand dollars to make that movie start somewhere, 618 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 3: most of which when to buy the camera that we 619 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 3: shot on, which was a Canon Excel, to which my 620 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 3: pitch the school, so Carnegie Mellon, and they gave us 621 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 3: most of the money for that ten thousand dollars. And 622 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 3: there's one person in particular, Dean Murphy, and my pitch 623 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,479 Speaker 3: was that if you give us this money, we'll buy 624 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 3: this camera and we'll donate it to the school after 625 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 3: so the school book on a camera, and that was 626 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 3: how I made my first movie, my. 627 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 2: First station, right from the start exactly. 628 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 3: And then we did exactly what we said we would do, 629 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 3: and then we did a second movie, and that's where 630 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 3: that's where it started. 631 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 2: Where would you like to see yourself in five ten years? 632 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 2: Yourself and confluential. 633 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 3: It's a good question because I love being able to 634 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 3: work with amazing people and being able to enable them 635 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 3: and for us to be able to do things we 636 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 3: can be proud of. And conflueni was very much the 637 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 3: confluence of art, entertainment, business and cultural simplicity. And so 638 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 3: I want us to be able to continue to do 639 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 3: things that we can be proud of, and that'll show 640 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 3: up in in different ways, and I have to figure 641 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 3: out what I'm going to direct next, because it's starting 642 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 3: to eat at me in a big way, and it's hard. 643 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 3: While we're in a company and producing stuff. I want 644 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 3: to figure out what our first scripted series is going 645 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 3: to be. There's something that I created back in twenty 646 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 3: sixteen called DWB. DWB is directly my black So you 647 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 3: think about the directors that we revere from the seventies, 648 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 3: from Coppola's to Scrcesi and de Palma and Spielberg. They're 649 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 3: all friends who supported each other. And I realized in 650 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen very much Souk, Yeah, very much though where 651 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 3: they were supporting each other, they were pushing each other. 652 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 3: They were shooting second unit on their projects. And I 653 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 3: realized that we didn't quite have that. And so the 654 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 3: first what I so, what I did was I organized 655 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 3: a dinner and I've been doing them every year, maybe 656 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 3: sometimes twice a year since then. But the first one 657 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 3: was Barry Jenkins Premium Light, Shaka King before Judas, Stephen 658 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 3: Cable Junior before Creed and Transformers, Sheldon Candice, whose next 659 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 3: film were producing and financing, and Justin Simmon that was 660 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 3: also before on a mansion, before a series. Who's when 661 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 3: we have a project with as well Im and we 662 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 3: had a wonderful time. It was all about peer mentorship 663 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 3: and supporting each other. And we've been doing these every 664 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 3: six months or so since. And the reason I say 665 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 3: that is you think about a movie like Joker, a 666 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 3: movie that was co finance where it's an Owner Brothers movie, 667 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 3: but it was co finance and that movie colls fifty 668 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 3: million dollars and did a billion dollars at the box office. 669 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 3: I want to do that movie. I want to do 670 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 3: that from when one of my friends wants to do 671 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 3: that sort of movie that they're gonna write and they 672 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 3: know how to do it, where you know O Cable 673 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 3: went often did twenty million dollar movie, or Justin did 674 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 3: or Barry did, and it's like, here's this thing that 675 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 3: I know how to do. And we come in as 676 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 3: the partner and we don't have to COVID fifty to 677 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 3: fifty with a Sony or our brothers, but we put 678 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 3: up twenty percent of the money. And so now both 679 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 3: us and then director are in a different position, a 680 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 3: different position from strength, from leverage, from being able to 681 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 3: support that director's vision and then when that project that 682 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 3: costs fifty million does a billion dollars at the box office, 683 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 3: things will change. And so that's what I want us 684 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 3: to do. 685 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review 686 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. We love to hear 687 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and sign 688 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't 689 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: forget to tune in next week for another episode of 690 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: Strictly Business.