1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey everyone, Today, Broken Records producer Leah Rose talks 2 00:00:23,796 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 1: to Adam Duritz, the lead singer of Counting Crows. Adam 3 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:31,436 Speaker 1: Durretz is no stranger to the spotlight. Counting Crow's nineteen 4 00:00:31,476 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 1: ninety three debut album, August and Everything After sold over 5 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:38,956 Speaker 1: seven million copies in the US. Singles released from the album, 6 00:00:38,996 --> 00:00:42,916 Speaker 1: including Mister Jones around Here, dominated radio and MTV at 7 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:46,316 Speaker 1: the time, but all the exposure wasn't great for the band, 8 00:00:46,396 --> 00:00:48,796 Speaker 1: and according to Durret's it led critics to focus more 9 00:00:48,836 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: on Durrett's star studed dating life than the band's music. 10 00:00:53,156 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 1: They've continued to release music over the last three decades. 11 00:00:55,756 --> 00:00:58,436 Speaker 1: In this month, Counting Crows put out their latest album 12 00:00:58,596 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 1: called Butter Miracle The Complete Suites. Today, we'll hear Adam 13 00:01:02,836 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 1: Duritt's talk in depth with Lee Rose about his lifelong 14 00:01:05,436 --> 00:01:08,716 Speaker 1: struggle with mental health and about how his disassociative disorder 15 00:01:08,756 --> 00:01:12,996 Speaker 1: has him hacked his ability to connect with people off stage. 16 00:01:14,756 --> 00:01:24,036 Speaker 1: This is Broken Record, real musicians, real conversations. If you 17 00:01:24,036 --> 00:01:26,236 Speaker 1: want to see the full video of this conversation, visit 18 00:01:26,316 --> 00:01:30,476 Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. Now Here's Leo 19 00:01:30,556 --> 00:01:31,996 Speaker 1: Rose with Adam Durantz. 20 00:01:33,236 --> 00:01:36,836 Speaker 2: So how is it feeling being back in the promo world. 21 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:41,996 Speaker 3: Oh, it's cool. I am excited. Yeah, I mean it's 22 00:01:42,036 --> 00:01:45,996 Speaker 3: a I have a weird job, and it's not the 23 00:01:46,076 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 3: kind of job that you expect to get to do 24 00:01:49,756 --> 00:01:54,756 Speaker 3: for too long. Totally, you hope, but it doesn't usually 25 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:57,756 Speaker 3: work out this way. So I think it's pretty cool. 26 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:04,036 Speaker 3: I mean it's been thirty two years since my first promos, really, 27 00:02:04,956 --> 00:02:08,516 Speaker 3: and I'm still here. Yeah. I think that's very cool. 28 00:02:09,556 --> 00:02:12,076 Speaker 3: I've been a rock star for a long time and 29 00:02:12,236 --> 00:02:14,476 Speaker 3: I really dig it. So every time we go back 30 00:02:14,516 --> 00:02:18,476 Speaker 3: to do this stuff, yeah, I get a little thrill. Oh. 31 00:02:18,556 --> 00:02:21,396 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. It's like I'm still making 32 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 3: records and people still want to talk to us about it. Yeah. 33 00:02:24,876 --> 00:02:29,276 Speaker 3: We could be we could have self sabotized ourselves into 34 00:02:29,316 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 3: the grave by now. We haven't and everyone could just 35 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:34,516 Speaker 3: be so bored that they don't want to talk to us. 36 00:02:34,636 --> 00:02:38,836 Speaker 3: And that hasn't happened either. So yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah. 37 00:02:38,876 --> 00:02:41,116 Speaker 2: I was talking to Billy Corgan recently and he was 38 00:02:41,156 --> 00:02:44,996 Speaker 2: saying that most bands, or most artists who get signed, 39 00:02:45,676 --> 00:02:48,036 Speaker 2: it's expected that they have four years. 40 00:02:48,396 --> 00:02:49,916 Speaker 3: Oh really, that's the math on that. 41 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:54,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's already extremely difficult to get signed 42 00:02:54,396 --> 00:02:57,196 Speaker 2: at all, but to have a career that spans three 43 00:02:57,276 --> 00:02:58,876 Speaker 2: decades is pretty phenomenal. 44 00:02:59,876 --> 00:03:04,036 Speaker 3: I think he overestimated that at four years. Maybe you'll 45 00:03:04,076 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 3: spend four years on the label. But I mean, I 46 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:10,516 Speaker 3: would think the greatest graveyard for bands is signed bands 47 00:03:10,716 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 3: like that. You get in there and then they just 48 00:03:13,036 --> 00:03:16,236 Speaker 3: sheled you or they you know, nothing happens. I don't know, 49 00:03:16,276 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 3: it seems like anyways, it's not great to not have 50 00:03:20,716 --> 00:03:24,516 Speaker 3: that happen to you totally. Although isn't it cool if 51 00:03:24,516 --> 00:03:26,756 Speaker 3: he is related to Bill Burr? 52 00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:30,236 Speaker 2: But I mean to ask him about that because it 53 00:03:30,316 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 2: feels like such a touchy subject. But they do look 54 00:03:33,156 --> 00:03:33,876 Speaker 2: a lot alike. 55 00:03:34,556 --> 00:03:36,636 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's a touchy subject because he sprung 56 00:03:36,636 --> 00:03:38,836 Speaker 3: it on them like without telling you. 57 00:03:38,956 --> 00:03:39,596 Speaker 2: I'm Bill Burr. 58 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 3: I'm Bill Burr. Yeah, yeah, which is weird. It's a 59 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:43,556 Speaker 3: weird thing to do. 60 00:03:44,076 --> 00:03:45,476 Speaker 2: It's very like Jerry Springer. 61 00:03:46,076 --> 00:03:49,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh, I can understand why Bill Burr would 62 00:03:49,236 --> 00:03:52,316 Speaker 3: have been a little annoyed about that. But yes, fucking 63 00:03:52,316 --> 00:03:54,076 Speaker 3: Bill Burr, I'd like to be related to Bill Burr 64 00:03:54,196 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 3: was talking about all kinds of shit. I think that 65 00:03:55,916 --> 00:03:56,516 Speaker 3: would be great. 66 00:03:58,076 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, that's the craziest thing. It's so funny. 67 00:04:02,036 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. 68 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:07,356 Speaker 2: I love your connection to comedy too. I watched your 69 00:04:07,476 --> 00:04:11,196 Speaker 2: uh you first have you only been on Rogan once? 70 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:12,796 Speaker 3: Uh? 71 00:04:12,876 --> 00:04:15,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, I watched that episode and I just 72 00:04:16,036 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 2: thought it was cool. How just the connection you have 73 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:21,996 Speaker 2: sounds like you're friends with a lot of comedians, with 74 00:04:22,076 --> 00:04:23,916 Speaker 2: Jeff Ross and some other guys. 75 00:04:24,796 --> 00:04:27,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, Jeff, I know Jeff Well. I was friends with 76 00:04:27,916 --> 00:04:32,636 Speaker 3: Bob Sagett forever and Bob introduced me to Jeff and 77 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:35,076 Speaker 3: we became very close friends. We went and did a 78 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:40,036 Speaker 3: USO tour together. But also, for me, comedians are the 79 00:04:42,436 --> 00:04:44,916 Speaker 3: that is the highest form of live performance to me, 80 00:04:45,116 --> 00:04:50,116 Speaker 3: like they are they are the tightrope walkers. Like I 81 00:04:50,836 --> 00:04:52,996 Speaker 3: love live performance. I love going to the theater. I 82 00:04:53,036 --> 00:04:56,876 Speaker 3: love bands. I admire anyone that can go up there 83 00:04:56,916 --> 00:04:59,076 Speaker 3: and really do it in front of people for real, 84 00:04:59,516 --> 00:05:03,596 Speaker 3: and nobody does it like comedians because they are more 85 00:05:04,236 --> 00:05:06,156 Speaker 3: depending on audience to any of us, I don't care 86 00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:10,276 Speaker 3: what happens in the audience. But but I mean, I 87 00:05:10,316 --> 00:05:12,156 Speaker 3: just think comedians are incredible. I've been obsessed with that 88 00:05:12,196 --> 00:05:13,956 Speaker 3: my whole life. You know, growing up in San Francisco 89 00:05:14,116 --> 00:05:16,396 Speaker 3: was a big comedy tea and I saw went to 90 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:19,436 Speaker 3: see comedy all the time as a kid, and you know, 91 00:05:19,436 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 3: a young adult, and I've just always been obsessed with it, 92 00:05:21,916 --> 00:05:24,036 Speaker 3: and you know, getting to know so many of these 93 00:05:24,076 --> 00:05:31,236 Speaker 3: guys A huge fan of, like Alex Edelman and Microbiglia, 94 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:34,516 Speaker 3: guys who write these long form pieces that I think 95 00:05:34,556 --> 00:05:37,036 Speaker 3: are so I've been obsessed with micro Biglia forever. 96 00:05:38,276 --> 00:05:40,596 Speaker 2: You said that you don't care about the audience's reaction, 97 00:05:40,756 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 2: you're sort of just, you know, I imagine you're just 98 00:05:43,236 --> 00:05:46,196 Speaker 2: doing your own thing for you. But correct me if 99 00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 2: I'm wrong about that. But does it seem like in 100 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:52,836 Speaker 2: your conversations they care about the audience. Are they also 101 00:05:52,956 --> 00:05:56,156 Speaker 2: sort of just in their own experience? 102 00:05:56,756 --> 00:06:00,436 Speaker 3: Well, it's much more symbiotic, like when you're a community. 103 00:06:00,516 --> 00:06:02,196 Speaker 3: I just shouldn't say I really don't care. It's not that. 104 00:06:02,316 --> 00:06:06,836 Speaker 3: But I could play with a dead, silent audience. When 105 00:06:06,836 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 3: the audience is really responsive, it's the most it's the 106 00:06:08,796 --> 00:06:13,916 Speaker 3: greatest in the world. But if they're not, we could 107 00:06:13,956 --> 00:06:15,636 Speaker 3: still play just as good as show. And in fact, 108 00:06:15,676 --> 00:06:18,556 Speaker 3: you can't be too affected by it because the truth is, 109 00:06:18,556 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 3: all you can really see is the first few rows, 110 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:26,836 Speaker 3: So everything after that. Let's say the first three rows 111 00:06:26,876 --> 00:06:30,396 Speaker 3: are sleeping, but there's ten thousand people behind them, So 112 00:06:30,436 --> 00:06:32,956 Speaker 3: you can't like decide to suck that night because you know, 113 00:06:32,996 --> 00:06:35,276 Speaker 3: as a musician, you've got to be able to just 114 00:06:35,316 --> 00:06:37,596 Speaker 3: play no matter what the audience is doing, it doesn't matter. 115 00:06:38,116 --> 00:06:40,876 Speaker 3: But for a comedian, you need the response because the 116 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:45,476 Speaker 3: laps are the you know, the arc that the yes, 117 00:06:45,876 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 3: it's part of the arc of the performance, and we're 118 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:51,356 Speaker 3: not dependent on that, so they have to ride that 119 00:06:51,636 --> 00:06:56,236 Speaker 3: in a way that is I think terrifying, you know, 120 00:06:56,676 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 3: you know, like I've done some like with Jeff and Bob. 121 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:03,436 Speaker 3: They both used to have me come play piano and 122 00:07:03,476 --> 00:07:08,996 Speaker 3: we would banter yes you know, and it's incredibly satisfying 123 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:13,316 Speaker 3: get laughs, but terrifying because you don't you know, may 124 00:07:13,356 --> 00:07:18,156 Speaker 3: not you know, And having done a comedy tour with Jeff, 125 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,116 Speaker 3: like where we were going to USO bases where it's 126 00:07:21,116 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 3: like and we were going to launch stool and like 127 00:07:24,956 --> 00:07:28,156 Speaker 3: the hospitals really where that where the first places people 128 00:07:28,196 --> 00:07:30,876 Speaker 3: were transported and these these particular hospitals dealt with a 129 00:07:30,876 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 3: lot of PTSD uh and a lot of like really 130 00:07:34,556 --> 00:07:38,036 Speaker 3: traumatic shit. And it was a lot of the people, 131 00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:42,116 Speaker 3: the doctors and the patients who were dealing with severe trauma. Wow, 132 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:45,076 Speaker 3: you know. And it would be like Colin Kane would 133 00:07:45,076 --> 00:07:46,996 Speaker 3: do a set as comedian, Sarah Tiana would do a 134 00:07:46,996 --> 00:07:49,236 Speaker 3: set as a comedian. The whole thing's hosted by Stewie Stone, 135 00:07:49,396 --> 00:07:51,916 Speaker 3: and then I come on, and then Jeff and Robert 136 00:07:51,996 --> 00:07:56,196 Speaker 3: Klein and so it's like funny, funny, funny death March, 137 00:07:56,676 --> 00:07:59,076 Speaker 3: you know, Like, because I'm not a very good piano player, 138 00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:01,876 Speaker 3: the only things I could play were like the most 139 00:08:01,956 --> 00:08:05,876 Speaker 3: Maudlin status County Cross Hunt. Oh, but it was you know, 140 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:09,636 Speaker 3: I had to kind of like be fun too. I 141 00:08:09,676 --> 00:08:12,916 Speaker 3: don't know, it was really challenging and cool. Yeah. 142 00:08:13,156 --> 00:08:16,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, Wow, that must have been such an incredible experience 143 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 2: an experience. Yeah, I've heard you say that the place 144 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:24,276 Speaker 2: that you're most comfortable is on stage in front of 145 00:08:24,316 --> 00:08:27,596 Speaker 2: an audience or playing with a band. When did you 146 00:08:27,676 --> 00:08:30,436 Speaker 2: first realize that and what was that realization like? For you? 147 00:08:31,436 --> 00:08:34,516 Speaker 3: It was more about being uncomfortable in the rest of 148 00:08:34,556 --> 00:08:38,916 Speaker 3: my life generally, you know, and then finding that there's 149 00:08:38,956 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 3: this thing I could do that made a place for 150 00:08:41,276 --> 00:08:45,356 Speaker 3: me in the world. You know that, Like I had 151 00:08:45,436 --> 00:08:49,156 Speaker 3: real concerns when I was younger with how I was 152 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 3: going to take care of myself. You know, I knew 153 00:08:51,476 --> 00:08:54,676 Speaker 3: that I was dealing with some pretty severe mental illness, 154 00:08:54,716 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 3: even if I didn't know what it was then, and 155 00:08:57,636 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 3: I didn't know how I was going to make that 156 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 3: transition to being an adult. You know, It's one thing 157 00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:02,516 Speaker 3: when you got to go to class every day, however 158 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:05,116 Speaker 3: difficult it is, But when you have to just make 159 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:08,196 Speaker 3: a life for yourself and you have all this handicap 160 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:12,476 Speaker 3: going on, all this different cult tea, you know, I 161 00:09:12,476 --> 00:09:14,516 Speaker 3: didn't know how that was going to work. And then 162 00:09:14,556 --> 00:09:17,276 Speaker 3: I found this thing I do that makes it all possible. 163 00:09:18,556 --> 00:09:22,796 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it was that writing songs gave 164 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 3: me a way to process life, and it also was 165 00:09:28,036 --> 00:09:34,316 Speaker 3: a way that other people were drawn to. I don't 166 00:09:34,316 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 3: think I was comfortable on stage right away or anything 167 00:09:36,356 --> 00:09:38,276 Speaker 3: like that. In fact, I know I was very uncomfortable 168 00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:40,996 Speaker 3: on stage right away at the beginning. It took a 169 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:44,796 Speaker 3: long time, but I think it's some people. I think 170 00:09:45,116 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 3: that comment really came out of someone asking me if 171 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:49,316 Speaker 3: I ever had stage fright, and I said no, man, Yes, 172 00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 3: I have rest of the day fright, you know, like 173 00:09:51,796 --> 00:09:54,236 Speaker 3: like the stage is fine. I don't think I actually 174 00:09:54,276 --> 00:09:56,756 Speaker 3: said like I'm more comfortable on stage, but it came 175 00:09:56,756 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 3: from somebody asking me, though, do you ever get stage fright? 176 00:09:59,516 --> 00:10:01,516 Speaker 3: And I was like, oh no, no, no, stage is fine. 177 00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 3: Stage is great. You know. It's like it's the rest 178 00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:07,516 Speaker 3: of life that I have always struggled with. Stage is 179 00:10:07,596 --> 00:10:09,676 Speaker 3: like I know what I'm supposed to do up there. 180 00:10:09,956 --> 00:10:13,956 Speaker 3: I'm gonna improvise and you know, but I know there's 181 00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 3: like a map. I even have a set list. It 182 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:19,116 Speaker 3: tells me what's coming next, you know, like, and I 183 00:10:19,156 --> 00:10:23,716 Speaker 3: am free to explore and expand on everything in that 184 00:10:24,036 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 3: list of things. Not that it's easy or anything, but 185 00:10:27,156 --> 00:10:30,516 Speaker 3: it's it's it's comfortable. I know what to do there. 186 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:33,556 Speaker 3: It's not it's not like walking into a party full 187 00:10:33,556 --> 00:10:35,316 Speaker 3: of people and I have no idea what to say 188 00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:37,236 Speaker 3: to people. But I do know what to do when 189 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:40,516 Speaker 3: I walk on stage, you know. And I'm not that 190 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:44,556 Speaker 3: I'm never nervous or anything, but it's such a I'm 191 00:10:44,596 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 3: so much more comfortable there than I am in the 192 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 3: rest of life that there's like no comparison. So stage 193 00:10:52,636 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 3: fright is not much of a problem anymore. I definitely 194 00:10:55,876 --> 00:10:57,516 Speaker 3: had it at times at first, you know. 195 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:01,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can see why. 196 00:11:00,356 --> 00:11:04,796 Speaker 3: My first few gigs I lost. The first three gigs 197 00:11:04,876 --> 00:11:06,876 Speaker 3: I played in my first real band as an adult, 198 00:11:07,716 --> 00:11:10,236 Speaker 3: I completely lost my voice that day of the show. 199 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:13,516 Speaker 3: I woke up with no voice, no idea why it happened. 200 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:16,316 Speaker 3: I had to chew I had to bring ginger root 201 00:11:16,396 --> 00:11:19,076 Speaker 3: on stage, cut it up and chew it and swallow 202 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:20,516 Speaker 3: it during the show because it was the only thing 203 00:11:20,556 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 3: that got my voice back. And it just happened for 204 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:24,876 Speaker 3: like three gigs right at the beginning of my career. 205 00:11:25,516 --> 00:11:25,956 Speaker 3: That's a lot. 206 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 2: And then it stopped, by the way, at the time, 207 00:11:27,876 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 2: like three gigs is a lot. 208 00:11:29,196 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 3: That's it was and out of nowhere, and especially when 209 00:11:31,196 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 3: they're your first gigs. Yes, you know, I'd played gigs 210 00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:36,036 Speaker 3: as a kid in a band, like when I was thirteen. 211 00:11:36,076 --> 00:11:38,916 Speaker 3: But now I'm like in my mid twenties and I've 212 00:11:38,916 --> 00:11:41,276 Speaker 3: got a band and we're playing my songs and I 213 00:11:41,356 --> 00:11:44,156 Speaker 3: go to sing and no, I forget go to sing. 214 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:47,476 Speaker 3: I wake up that day with no voice, and I 215 00:11:47,516 --> 00:11:50,036 Speaker 3: go through the whole day. I can't talk, I can't 216 00:11:50,036 --> 00:11:52,796 Speaker 3: make it's the weirdest thing. It happened for three gigs 217 00:11:52,796 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 3: and then it stopped, you know, so I know, so 218 00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:59,476 Speaker 3: I I didn't feel like I was afraid, But that's 219 00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:02,956 Speaker 3: some kind of weird psychosomatic reaction, you know. Yeah. 220 00:12:03,236 --> 00:12:05,276 Speaker 2: Was that something you've talked to your parents about when 221 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:07,876 Speaker 2: you were growing up, about feeling uncomfortable in any of 222 00:12:07,996 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 2: like the mental illness you were experiencing. Were you open 223 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:13,196 Speaker 2: with your parents about that not? 224 00:12:13,996 --> 00:12:16,276 Speaker 3: Early on, I just don't think I recognized it. I 225 00:12:16,316 --> 00:12:18,676 Speaker 3: just thought that's what life was like, and it was weird, 226 00:12:18,716 --> 00:12:21,236 Speaker 3: and I was awkward, and we moved around a lot 227 00:12:21,916 --> 00:12:23,876 Speaker 3: early on, so I didn't know any It wasn't like 228 00:12:23,916 --> 00:12:25,716 Speaker 3: everybody else in my class who knew everybody. They'd known 229 00:12:25,716 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 3: each other since kindergarten. I had usually just gotten there, 230 00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:32,636 Speaker 3: you know. That was true in first grade, third grade, 231 00:12:32,716 --> 00:12:35,596 Speaker 3: fourth grade, fifth grade were all new cities, you know, 232 00:12:36,076 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 3: and then seventh grade was a new school. So you know, 233 00:12:39,476 --> 00:12:41,796 Speaker 3: it was a lot of experiences where I'd only known 234 00:12:41,836 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 3: anybody for one or two years. So I just chalked 235 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:49,316 Speaker 3: it up to being shy, you know. It wasn't until 236 00:12:50,796 --> 00:12:54,396 Speaker 3: I started having some more sort of hallucinatory experiences in 237 00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:58,196 Speaker 3: the latter parts of high school that I realized this 238 00:12:58,236 --> 00:13:00,396 Speaker 3: isn't supposed to happen, This is not that. This is 239 00:13:00,436 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 3: weird and scary and kind of psychedelic and not cool. 240 00:13:07,396 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 3: And then I went to some doctor and talk to 241 00:13:11,076 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 3: my parents and yeah, but I was probably a junior 242 00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:16,676 Speaker 3: in high school when that happened. 243 00:13:16,836 --> 00:13:17,276 Speaker 2: Wow. 244 00:13:17,556 --> 00:13:20,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was started then with really you know, 245 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:24,716 Speaker 3: the more disturbing parts of it. Now I can look 246 00:13:24,716 --> 00:13:26,356 Speaker 3: back on and see, Okay, that was happening to me 247 00:13:26,396 --> 00:13:29,236 Speaker 3: in first grade. I can see what it was. The 248 00:13:29,276 --> 00:13:31,876 Speaker 3: weirdness and the difficulty and being inside my own head, 249 00:13:32,916 --> 00:13:35,076 Speaker 3: all the things that make up a dissociative disorder. I 250 00:13:35,076 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 3: could see them now. Yeah, right back in first grade, 251 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:41,516 Speaker 3: you know. But I didn't. I didn't know that then. 252 00:13:41,836 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 3: You know, you're not really thinking about that stuff. You 253 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 3: just think you're not popular, you know. 254 00:13:46,516 --> 00:13:46,956 Speaker 1: Yeah. 255 00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 2: Have you are there any ways in which you apply 256 00:13:50,756 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 2: the like you were talking about being on stage? You 257 00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:56,676 Speaker 2: have a set list, so you have sort of a 258 00:13:56,756 --> 00:13:59,716 Speaker 2: map of what you're going to do. Have you applied 259 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:03,236 Speaker 2: that to other parts of your life outside of performing, 260 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:05,956 Speaker 2: like as a way to live, as a way to 261 00:14:06,476 --> 00:14:08,316 Speaker 2: sort of like write yourself. 262 00:14:09,356 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 3: I make a lot of lists for things, but you 263 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 3: know it's not you know, but everybody makes grocery lists. 264 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:19,116 Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, are you so much benefits from 265 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:21,436 Speaker 2: having like a schedule, Like is that feel? 266 00:14:22,156 --> 00:14:22,276 Speaker 1: No? 267 00:14:22,356 --> 00:14:25,796 Speaker 3: I don't like that. I prefer to have open space 268 00:14:25,876 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 3: and then make things in the schedule. But uh, but 269 00:14:29,476 --> 00:14:33,516 Speaker 3: you know what I do do, Like, uh, I've always 270 00:14:33,676 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 3: cooked since I was a kid, and like during the pandemic, 271 00:14:36,916 --> 00:14:39,236 Speaker 3: I really started cooking again a lot because we were here. 272 00:14:39,756 --> 00:14:41,316 Speaker 3: And one of the things I do do is I 273 00:14:41,316 --> 00:14:43,116 Speaker 3: do a lot of research. When I want to find 274 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:44,876 Speaker 3: something I want to cook, I'll read a lot about 275 00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:49,156 Speaker 3: it first, and then i'll like, you know, make the 276 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:53,036 Speaker 3: recipe from several other recipes often and I'll read it 277 00:14:53,076 --> 00:14:56,556 Speaker 3: over a lot, you know, before I make it too. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 278 00:14:56,556 --> 00:14:58,676 Speaker 3: And the same way when we were doing the podcast, 279 00:14:58,716 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 3: I would spend like a lot of research time researching 280 00:15:03,116 --> 00:15:04,556 Speaker 3: all the stuff I want to talk about. When we 281 00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:07,516 Speaker 3: had the Underwater Sunshine podcast talking about the music, because 282 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:09,796 Speaker 3: if we're going to do like a four part you know, 283 00:15:09,876 --> 00:15:12,436 Speaker 3: like a four hour, five hour series on punk music, 284 00:15:13,116 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 3: then I really need to have my notes and have 285 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:18,036 Speaker 3: it together which is how I started cooking again because 286 00:15:18,036 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 3: when we couldn't do the podcast over the pandemic, I 287 00:15:20,996 --> 00:15:22,876 Speaker 3: needed something to do with all that time, so I 288 00:15:22,916 --> 00:15:26,636 Speaker 3: started cooking. Yeah, so I do do things like that, 289 00:15:26,796 --> 00:15:30,996 Speaker 3: Like I'm not as comfortable just winging it totally. I 290 00:15:30,996 --> 00:15:33,276 Speaker 3: mean I will wing it still, but it's I put 291 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:34,996 Speaker 3: a lot of preparation into the winging it. You know, 292 00:15:35,036 --> 00:15:37,516 Speaker 3: I'll make my own recipe, but I'll put a lot 293 00:15:37,556 --> 00:15:40,516 Speaker 3: of preparation into that recipe before I do it. Does 294 00:15:40,556 --> 00:15:41,276 Speaker 3: that have. 295 00:15:41,236 --> 00:15:43,596 Speaker 2: Any sort of overlap with the way that you write songs? 296 00:15:44,316 --> 00:15:46,876 Speaker 3: No, not really at all. That's very that is wing 297 00:15:46,916 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 3: I mean I do that a lot off the top 298 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 3: of my head, and it's very inspiration based. I mean 299 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 3: it's a lot of craft that goes into it too, 300 00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:55,916 Speaker 3: But you really get in a groove with feeling stuff 301 00:15:56,716 --> 00:16:01,436 Speaker 3: and then finding ways to expressing words and music those 302 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:02,156 Speaker 3: things you're feeling. 303 00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 2: Does it build over time with experience or is that 304 00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 2: is it more? Does the craft get to where it's 305 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:13,316 Speaker 2: at from studying? 306 00:16:14,596 --> 00:16:16,996 Speaker 3: Well, you push yourself into the writing. You push yourself 307 00:16:17,036 --> 00:16:20,796 Speaker 3: to find the ways to say things that aren't the 308 00:16:20,836 --> 00:16:25,276 Speaker 3: obvious ways, the ways that are you so you look 309 00:16:25,436 --> 00:16:29,556 Speaker 3: for the details in the feeling you want to express, 310 00:16:29,636 --> 00:16:35,436 Speaker 3: you know, like saying I really like her or I 311 00:16:35,556 --> 00:16:41,316 Speaker 3: love her or I love you isn't particularly meaningful. I 312 00:16:41,316 --> 00:16:43,556 Speaker 3: mean a lot of people have said it. What does 313 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:46,476 Speaker 3: I love her tell you about me? Not much, you know, 314 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:49,156 Speaker 3: and not much about the situation, and not much about 315 00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:53,356 Speaker 3: the relationship or anything. But if you say and all 316 00:16:53,396 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 3: at once, I looked across a crowded room to see 317 00:16:55,436 --> 00:16:58,516 Speaker 3: the way that light attaches to a girl, Well, now 318 00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:00,956 Speaker 3: you've got this picture of someone in a room looking 319 00:17:00,996 --> 00:17:04,036 Speaker 3: at someone and all those details. That communicates a lot 320 00:17:04,076 --> 00:17:07,116 Speaker 3: of feeling, yeah, and also paints a picture that's very 321 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:11,156 Speaker 3: vivid of light hitting someone across a hospital room. You know, 322 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:15,836 Speaker 3: But you don't necessarily that line doesn't just pop up 323 00:17:15,876 --> 00:17:17,356 Speaker 3: out of nowhere. You know, you have to think about 324 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:19,436 Speaker 3: you want to express this thing, So you think about 325 00:17:19,476 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 3: the room you're in or the room you were in, 326 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:27,876 Speaker 3: and you think about the details, and how can I 327 00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 3: conjure this feeling, which is I liked her, yeah, but 328 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:32,396 Speaker 3: in a way that it's not just I liked her, 329 00:17:32,396 --> 00:17:36,636 Speaker 3: because that doesn't really give anybody anything, you know. And 330 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 3: then the craft is like disciplining yourself to do that. 331 00:17:40,196 --> 00:17:43,436 Speaker 3: I read a book by Steven Sonheim once and he 332 00:17:44,116 --> 00:17:47,476 Speaker 3: mentioned that he always keeps a rhyming dictionary with him, 333 00:17:48,396 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 3: and I was like, why would you do that? That's 334 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 3: so hack, you know, and I consider him as good 335 00:17:53,356 --> 00:17:56,316 Speaker 3: a songwriter that has ever lived, you know, And he said, well, 336 00:17:56,396 --> 00:17:58,196 Speaker 3: it's just a tool. Why wouldn't you have a tool 337 00:17:58,236 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 3: that gave you a bunch of ideas Because it just 338 00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:03,036 Speaker 3: gives you a bunch of words that you might want 339 00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:05,396 Speaker 3: to use. And one of those words, even the one 340 00:18:05,436 --> 00:18:08,276 Speaker 3: that you don't use, might cause an image to pop 341 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 3: up in your head that you do want to use 342 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:11,716 Speaker 3: later on, you know. And so I just thought, oh, 343 00:18:11,796 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 3: it's weird. I'll get a rhyming dictionary and I keep 344 00:18:14,036 --> 00:18:16,276 Speaker 3: them around now and they're really useful. And sometimes I'll 345 00:18:16,316 --> 00:18:19,596 Speaker 3: just make lists of words at rhyme and then it'll 346 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:22,836 Speaker 3: inspire something else later in the song or right there. 347 00:18:22,876 --> 00:18:25,636 Speaker 3: You know that there are a whole lot of different 348 00:18:25,676 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 3: ways to apply craft. Sometimes you can feel like it 349 00:18:28,676 --> 00:18:32,956 Speaker 3: should just be this feeling you get and that inspiration 350 00:18:33,356 --> 00:18:36,636 Speaker 3: and that emotion that is really important. You want the 351 00:18:36,676 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 3: writing to be like infused with feeling and inspiration. But 352 00:18:41,956 --> 00:18:44,596 Speaker 3: you know, you can't always expect it to just happen 353 00:18:44,636 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 3: off the top of your head. I've written whole songs 354 00:18:46,476 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 3: off the top of my head, just jamming with the 355 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:50,116 Speaker 3: band and I'm singing to Mike, And what's gone on 356 00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:52,196 Speaker 3: four track around here was written almost entirely off the 357 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:54,236 Speaker 3: top of my head. I just got the tape later 358 00:18:54,276 --> 00:18:56,756 Speaker 3: and looked at it and it was all there. But 359 00:18:56,916 --> 00:19:00,516 Speaker 3: you also sometimes you sit down and you work on it. 360 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:06,916 Speaker 3: This record, I wrote the first half the record on 361 00:19:06,956 --> 00:19:09,076 Speaker 3: my friend's farm, and I went back there a year 362 00:19:09,196 --> 00:19:14,476 Speaker 3: later and wrote the rest of it. And on the 363 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:17,676 Speaker 3: way home, I stopped in London because my friends in 364 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:20,716 Speaker 3: the band Gang of Youths were making a record and 365 00:19:20,756 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 3: I had already sung on it once, but they had 366 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:25,396 Speaker 3: scrapped the record and they were re recording it and 367 00:19:25,436 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 3: I needed to go sing on it again. So I 368 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 3: stopped there and sang on a bunch of stuff. And 369 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:30,876 Speaker 3: then when I got home a little while after I 370 00:19:30,876 --> 00:19:34,356 Speaker 3: got home, David Leo Pepe, the singer, sent me the 371 00:19:34,356 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 3: record finished and it was so good. And then listening 372 00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:43,676 Speaker 3: to it, I thought, you know, I didn't hit this 373 00:19:43,796 --> 00:19:47,636 Speaker 3: bar on the stuff. I just wrote those songs aren't 374 00:19:47,676 --> 00:19:51,876 Speaker 3: good enough. And this is never happening for my attack career. 375 00:19:51,916 --> 00:19:54,356 Speaker 3: I've never second guessed a song like this. When I'm done, 376 00:19:54,396 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 3: they're done. If they're not good enough, I usually throw 377 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:58,676 Speaker 3: them out. You know. It was clear to me that 378 00:19:58,716 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 3: I had kind of misjudged. I thought that Virginia through 379 00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 3: the Rain was perfect, but. 380 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 2: It's such a good song, eat aful song. 381 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:10,316 Speaker 3: But the rest of them, like Spaceman in Tulsa, it 382 00:20:11,156 --> 00:20:14,156 Speaker 3: had too many sections, It went through too many permutations. 383 00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:16,556 Speaker 3: I needed to. I went back to the drawing board 384 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:18,196 Speaker 3: and I really took that song and tuned it up 385 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:21,756 Speaker 3: and tightened it up. The song that became Under the Aurora. 386 00:20:23,356 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 3: It wasn't a very good chorus. I kept all the 387 00:20:25,956 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 3: verses in a slightly different order, but I wrote an 388 00:20:29,756 --> 00:20:32,116 Speaker 3: entire new chorus for it, which is now now the 389 00:20:32,116 --> 00:20:34,756 Speaker 3: song is called under the Aurora. The other chorus wasn't 390 00:20:34,756 --> 00:20:37,636 Speaker 3: good enough. Box Cars. It was too hard for me 391 00:20:37,676 --> 00:20:39,756 Speaker 3: to play, and I hadn't finished it. I had all 392 00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:43,076 Speaker 3: the ideas in my head, but not the song. So 393 00:20:43,116 --> 00:20:46,036 Speaker 3: I went back and reworked all that stuff and then 394 00:20:46,196 --> 00:20:48,916 Speaker 3: sat on it. Because I think the act of realizing 395 00:20:48,956 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 3: they weren't good enough. Really shook my confidence in them, 396 00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:54,516 Speaker 3: and so they sat there for two years. It's why 397 00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 3: there was such a chunk of time between Sweet One 398 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:00,876 Speaker 3: and the Sweet Tooth, because I just I don't think 399 00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 3: I even sent them to the band. I didn't feel 400 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,756 Speaker 3: good about them, even after I'd reworked them and I 401 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:07,516 Speaker 3: thought they were great. I had a lot of doubts 402 00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:10,516 Speaker 3: and I was a little embarrassed. And finally I wrote 403 00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:12,836 Speaker 3: with Love for Me to Z, which is the one 404 00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:15,156 Speaker 3: song I wrote here at home, and I loved that, 405 00:21:15,876 --> 00:21:17,676 Speaker 3: and I looked at the other songs and I was like, 406 00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:20,316 Speaker 3: I got to figure this out. And I called up 407 00:21:20,876 --> 00:21:23,156 Speaker 3: Millard and Jim are bass player and drummer, and immera 408 00:21:23,196 --> 00:21:24,876 Speaker 3: our guitar player, and I said, I need everybody to 409 00:21:24,876 --> 00:21:27,396 Speaker 3: come to my house, like in the next for a week. 410 00:21:27,796 --> 00:21:29,636 Speaker 3: Just come in the next few weeks. We need to 411 00:21:29,636 --> 00:21:31,516 Speaker 3: set some time. I got a demo of these songs. 412 00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:33,396 Speaker 3: I got to play them with you guys, because I 413 00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:36,316 Speaker 3: can't tell I felt like I'd written a bunch of 414 00:21:36,316 --> 00:21:40,196 Speaker 3: stuff that was a stretch for me to write and 415 00:21:40,276 --> 00:21:43,636 Speaker 3: also passed my ability to play. I'm not a good 416 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 3: enough player to play these songs well enough to judge them, 417 00:21:47,076 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 3: and I needed the band here to play them, especially 418 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:53,556 Speaker 3: box Cars, which was so much a guitar song in 419 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 3: my head the whole time, and I really couldn't even 420 00:21:57,516 --> 00:21:59,796 Speaker 3: finish it until I had the guys here. And as 421 00:21:59,836 --> 00:22:01,596 Speaker 3: soon as we started playing, we were like, oh, I 422 00:22:01,636 --> 00:22:05,236 Speaker 3: love this song. Okay, Yeah, Spaceman is great, A to 423 00:22:05,316 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 3: Z is great, box Cars okay, now it sounds great. 424 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:11,356 Speaker 3: That riff is great, you know, and Aurora Okay, it's 425 00:22:11,396 --> 00:22:14,436 Speaker 3: not just long, it's gonna be great. You know, this 426 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 3: is these are really cool. We got so excited we 427 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:18,276 Speaker 3: wanted to go in the studio right away. We went 428 00:22:18,316 --> 00:22:20,876 Speaker 3: in like three weeks later, in like eleven days, we 429 00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 3: recorded the whole thing. Wow, And it went really quickly 430 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:29,276 Speaker 3: from that point on, but uh, it got delayed by 431 00:22:29,316 --> 00:22:30,916 Speaker 3: two years. Yeah. 432 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 2: Is that a feeling for you if you're going through 433 00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 2: like a crisis of confidence before that, when everything works 434 00:22:36,876 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 2: out and you're with the band and you you crack 435 00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:42,756 Speaker 2: the code you make everything work, is that just like, 436 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:45,156 Speaker 2: oh my god, thank god, it's it's not gone. I 437 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:47,116 Speaker 2: haven't lost it where. 438 00:22:46,996 --> 00:22:49,356 Speaker 3: You never happened to me before? Yeah, I don't know, 439 00:22:49,396 --> 00:22:52,276 Speaker 3: but I lost it. But I just I had certainly 440 00:22:52,316 --> 00:22:54,716 Speaker 3: lost confidence for most of my career. When I'm writing, 441 00:22:56,036 --> 00:22:58,556 Speaker 3: I know it's good, and that's why otherwise I don't 442 00:22:58,556 --> 00:23:00,636 Speaker 3: even finish it. You know, I know when a song 443 00:23:00,716 --> 00:23:03,876 Speaker 3: is right, and I don't really I write most things 444 00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:08,076 Speaker 3: in one sitting, you know, I don't really rework over 445 00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:10,476 Speaker 3: months and months. This happened a little bit with the 446 00:23:10,476 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 3: songs on Someone Under Wonderland because they were so different 447 00:23:13,276 --> 00:23:16,036 Speaker 3: from anything I'd written before. But this was different. This 448 00:23:16,156 --> 00:23:19,316 Speaker 3: was like I had had to rework the songs. They 449 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 3: needed work, and then they got They got great, but 450 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:25,436 Speaker 3: I didn't know it. And then when we started playing them, 451 00:23:25,436 --> 00:23:27,636 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is great. Okay, thank god, Yeah, 452 00:23:27,676 --> 00:23:29,796 Speaker 3: this is fucking We were all so excited that we 453 00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:32,396 Speaker 3: did it all about four or five days and then 454 00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:34,556 Speaker 3: we were in the studio two or three weeks later, 455 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:35,876 Speaker 3: like recording it. 456 00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:36,956 Speaker 2: So cool. 457 00:23:37,556 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, it went really fast. I mean they you know, 458 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:43,156 Speaker 3: part of them was that they were like like box cars. 459 00:23:44,836 --> 00:23:47,596 Speaker 3: It had its genesis in a way during the pandemic, 460 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:49,796 Speaker 3: because all of a sudden, there were these two years 461 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:52,716 Speaker 3: where I couldn't play, and at one point this riff 462 00:23:52,796 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 3: kind of got in my head that went Corona a virus, 463 00:23:55,756 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 3: Corona a virus, Corona a virus. No, no, no. It 464 00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 3: was like this metal riff that I was, like that 465 00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:04,956 Speaker 3: earworm that got in my head, and I was running 466 00:24:04,956 --> 00:24:07,076 Speaker 3: around the house singing it for like months at a 467 00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:10,436 Speaker 3: time and driving my girlfriend crazy. And then when I worked, 468 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:11,836 Speaker 3: I mean, I never thought I'd make anything out of 469 00:24:11,836 --> 00:24:13,236 Speaker 3: it because it was a joke. I thought the riff 470 00:24:13,316 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 3: was awesome, but the song Coronavirus probably wasn't going to be, 471 00:24:17,916 --> 00:24:21,836 Speaker 3: you know. And then when I was writing what became 472 00:24:21,916 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 3: box Cars, you know, I had that chorus that mom 473 00:24:24,116 --> 00:24:26,356 Speaker 3: and dad and a couple of kids, you know, and 474 00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 3: I had the verse music in this chorus, and one 475 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:32,516 Speaker 3: day I was like, oh man, I wonder if that 476 00:24:32,676 --> 00:24:35,236 Speaker 3: riff would work here, you know. And so that this 477 00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:37,516 Speaker 3: riff that I never expected to see the light of 478 00:24:37,596 --> 00:24:39,596 Speaker 3: day under any circumstances because it was kind of a 479 00:24:39,676 --> 00:24:42,756 Speaker 3: joke in my head became like one of the best 480 00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:45,276 Speaker 3: guitarists I've ever written, you know, Like right here leading 481 00:24:45,276 --> 00:24:49,476 Speaker 3: off that song, it's blistering. I'm always tempted to sing 482 00:24:49,516 --> 00:24:50,956 Speaker 3: Coronavirus overrit. 483 00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 2: But you should. So you said, maybe this is a 484 00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:58,716 Speaker 2: metal riff. Have songs ever come to you that are 485 00:24:58,716 --> 00:25:02,596 Speaker 2: in just a completely different genre, like an EDM song, 486 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:05,316 Speaker 2: like a hip hop like anything? Like has something ever 487 00:25:05,396 --> 00:25:06,876 Speaker 2: come to you and you're like. 488 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:12,996 Speaker 3: Oh, well, I mean in that, Like my abilities to 489 00:25:12,996 --> 00:25:16,556 Speaker 3: play piano are pretty limited, and so often the idea 490 00:25:16,596 --> 00:25:20,316 Speaker 3: I have in my head sounds nothing like what it 491 00:25:20,356 --> 00:25:22,796 Speaker 3: sounds like when I play it. Like mostly I try 492 00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:24,836 Speaker 3: and get off the piano as soon as possible. I 493 00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:28,276 Speaker 3: want to teach it to the band and then get 494 00:25:28,276 --> 00:25:30,116 Speaker 3: it away from what it started as you know, like 495 00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 3: Boxcars is a perfect example. It didn't sound very good 496 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 3: on piano, but it was never supposed to be on piano, 497 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:39,876 Speaker 3: Like I often hear guitar but play piano, so I 498 00:25:40,036 --> 00:25:42,676 Speaker 3: hummet to the guys and are all kind of There 499 00:25:42,716 --> 00:25:45,476 Speaker 3: are songs that are meant to be piano songs the 500 00:25:45,516 --> 00:25:47,356 Speaker 3: way I play them, and some of those songs I 501 00:25:47,396 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 3: end up playing on the records, like A Long December 502 00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:56,116 Speaker 3: or good Night La color Blind. I played Missus Potter's Lullaby. 503 00:25:56,196 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 3: But often it's really not like what I've got going 504 00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 3: on is not where I want the song to go, 505 00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:05,756 Speaker 3: you know, Like mister Jones is a guitar song. But 506 00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:08,596 Speaker 3: I wrote that on piano, but it was never supposed 507 00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:11,516 Speaker 3: to be on pian you know, like when you wrote. 508 00:26:11,316 --> 00:26:13,516 Speaker 2: That, did it sound different? So if you're playing that 509 00:26:13,596 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 2: on if you're playing Mister Jones, for example, on piano, 510 00:26:16,036 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 2: how did that sound when you were singing it to 511 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:19,916 Speaker 2: the band? Is it the same melody? 512 00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:23,196 Speaker 3: I don't know. The melody was probably the same. Yeah, 513 00:26:23,436 --> 00:26:25,756 Speaker 3: I mean, for the most part, the melodies are often 514 00:26:25,796 --> 00:26:28,156 Speaker 3: the same. It's just the feel of the song all 515 00:26:28,196 --> 00:26:31,036 Speaker 3: often have to describe to them. Like you know, hanging 516 00:26:31,076 --> 00:26:33,316 Speaker 3: around was a piano song is always supposed to be 517 00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 3: done to a drum loop, you know what I mean? 518 00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:38,436 Speaker 3: And yeah, that that drum loop was always going to 519 00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 3: be really important. 520 00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:42,876 Speaker 2: Have you always been a romantic person, like even when 521 00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 2: you were younger, before you started writing music. 522 00:26:46,876 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 3: I don't know what's like a I mean, you. 523 00:26:50,356 --> 00:26:52,716 Speaker 2: Seem very romantic. I mean, just the line that you 524 00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:56,156 Speaker 2: just said about seeing a woman across the room and 525 00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:58,556 Speaker 2: the light hitting her, like, that's very romantic. 526 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:01,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean that line is supposed to be. 527 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 3: I mean that's sort of that's the point of that line. 528 00:27:04,276 --> 00:27:05,916 Speaker 2: Do you feel like as a little kid, like you 529 00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:10,396 Speaker 2: had feelings like that, like were you. 530 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:11,916 Speaker 3: Well, you know, when you're dissociative, you spend a lot 531 00:27:11,956 --> 00:27:15,156 Speaker 3: of time pretty far back in your own head, and 532 00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:19,476 Speaker 3: that can be pretty isolating. And I think connection is 533 00:27:19,516 --> 00:27:22,196 Speaker 3: something that you really lack and that you really want, 534 00:27:23,156 --> 00:27:25,436 Speaker 3: but it seems like such a long way from you 535 00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:29,596 Speaker 3: to other people, and so I think that there's a 536 00:27:29,676 --> 00:27:34,396 Speaker 3: yearning that goes with that for connection and closeness. That's 537 00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:36,996 Speaker 3: a big part of my writing and a big part 538 00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:38,676 Speaker 3: of me probably. I don't know if I would describe 539 00:27:38,716 --> 00:27:42,236 Speaker 3: that as romantic. I mean, although that, you know, romance 540 00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 3: is certainly a part of you know, making connections, but 541 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:52,516 Speaker 3: it was I think music has always been about reaching 542 00:27:52,556 --> 00:27:55,356 Speaker 3: out for me to other stuff, you know, and the 543 00:27:55,436 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 3: connection is been really important, and the music provided me 544 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 3: with a way of connecting with people that I didn't 545 00:28:03,356 --> 00:28:04,956 Speaker 3: necessarily have otherwise. 546 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:09,076 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Adam Durretz after the break. 547 00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:16,836 Speaker 2: Do you ever think about what your career would be 548 00:28:16,996 --> 00:28:20,516 Speaker 2: like had The Counting Crows not blown up with the 549 00:28:20,556 --> 00:28:23,596 Speaker 2: first two albums, especially the first album like out the Gate, 550 00:28:23,716 --> 00:28:26,516 Speaker 2: like you guys were huge, If that would have happened 551 00:28:26,516 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 2: on like in the middle of your career. Do you 552 00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:30,156 Speaker 2: ever think about how things might have been different? 553 00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:33,156 Speaker 3: Well, it seemed like that's what was happening. Like, I mean, 554 00:28:33,196 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 3: we were out for a while as like we were 555 00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:38,876 Speaker 3: like a college radio band for a while there. Even 556 00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:41,516 Speaker 3: when we played on Saturday Night Live and mister Jones 557 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:44,436 Speaker 3: was kind of a radio hit already, the record wasn't 558 00:28:44,476 --> 00:28:47,156 Speaker 3: even in the top two hundred. I mean, we weren't 559 00:28:47,676 --> 00:28:49,876 Speaker 3: really blowing up at all, And that was kind of 560 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,316 Speaker 3: what we thought. I mean, everybody nobody really thought we 561 00:28:52,316 --> 00:28:55,076 Speaker 3: were like this instant hit band like Nirvana was right then. 562 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:57,716 Speaker 3: You know, who were our label mates? You know that 563 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,436 Speaker 3: we had a three record deal. The talk was, you know, 564 00:29:01,476 --> 00:29:04,476 Speaker 3: you hoped you maybe sl one hundred thousand records on 565 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:07,236 Speaker 3: that first record, and you you know, you got a 566 00:29:07,276 --> 00:29:10,356 Speaker 3: chance to build a career. The model was probably like 567 00:29:10,556 --> 00:29:13,156 Speaker 3: Ram who spent five records on indie label. You know, 568 00:29:13,196 --> 00:29:15,676 Speaker 3: that's kind of what we thought was going to happen, Yeah, 569 00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:17,436 Speaker 3: or what we not what we thought. That's kind of 570 00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:19,996 Speaker 3: what we hoped was going to happen. But we played 571 00:29:20,076 --> 00:29:22,436 Speaker 3: round here on Saturday Night Live and our career blew up. 572 00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:28,316 Speaker 3: It was really that. I mean, the record jumped forty 573 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:30,756 Speaker 3: spots a week for five weeks and landed us at 574 00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 3: number two for the next couple of years. But it 575 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:35,796 Speaker 3: hadn't been before that we'd been out. It had been 576 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:38,916 Speaker 3: out for three or four months. We were touring, we 577 00:29:38,916 --> 00:29:41,156 Speaker 3: were having things were going pretty well. I mean, mister 578 00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:44,996 Speaker 3: Jones was doing okay on the radio, MTV played a 579 00:29:45,036 --> 00:29:48,716 Speaker 3: little bit one hundred and twenty minutes. It all seemed 580 00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:52,476 Speaker 3: pretty good, and then it just went through the stratosphere, 581 00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:54,676 Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, But I mean it would have been 582 00:29:55,236 --> 00:29:58,396 Speaker 3: cool in some ways because the backlash was pretty severe 583 00:29:58,556 --> 00:30:03,356 Speaker 3: after after the first album, you know. Yeah, Satellites at 584 00:30:03,356 --> 00:30:05,876 Speaker 3: the time was pretty disregarded. I mean, I think people 585 00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:07,956 Speaker 3: really love it now and it's a really respected record 586 00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:13,276 Speaker 3: in December, has become like a Christmas standard almost for people. 587 00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:18,076 Speaker 3: But at the time, I was so excited about that record. 588 00:30:18,116 --> 00:30:20,396 Speaker 3: I thought it was incredible. It was a real departure 589 00:30:20,396 --> 00:30:23,556 Speaker 3: from August and we were really growing as a band, 590 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:26,876 Speaker 3: you know. But it was completely dismissed at the time. 591 00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:29,116 Speaker 3: I mean, We've got some good reviews, but there was 592 00:30:29,156 --> 00:30:33,156 Speaker 3: also a lot of people who were just really really 593 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 3: sick of us. You know, do you. 594 00:30:35,996 --> 00:30:39,676 Speaker 2: Follow that same arc with other artists that come out 595 00:30:38,836 --> 00:30:43,236 Speaker 2: and blow up like someone like Drake, Like the backlash 596 00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:44,916 Speaker 2: is inevitable if you get so big. 597 00:30:45,516 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there took a long time to happen with Drake, 598 00:30:47,596 --> 00:30:49,076 Speaker 3: I mean, and there were people who didn't like Drake 599 00:30:49,116 --> 00:30:54,196 Speaker 3: at the beginning too. It's very but you know, it's 600 00:30:54,316 --> 00:30:58,476 Speaker 3: it was more like what happened to you like Atlantis, 601 00:30:58,556 --> 00:31:01,836 Speaker 3: where it was just you get one album and you're done. 602 00:31:01,876 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 3: You know, like after that, nobody's interested because they're so 603 00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:08,236 Speaker 3: tired of you. I think that happens a lot to 604 00:31:08,316 --> 00:31:10,876 Speaker 3: bands that are too on their first album. I really 605 00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:14,516 Speaker 3: tried to shut down that record after Round Here. I 606 00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:17,236 Speaker 3: told them I would no longer make any videos. We 607 00:31:17,236 --> 00:31:19,636 Speaker 3: were done, no more singles, no more videos. And then 608 00:31:20,036 --> 00:31:21,356 Speaker 3: the rest of the songs went up and down the 609 00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 3: charts anyways without us doing that. What happened was there 610 00:31:25,596 --> 00:31:28,276 Speaker 3: did I had refused to do any more singles and 611 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:31,636 Speaker 3: any more videos, And then I forgot that I had 612 00:31:31,636 --> 00:31:36,716 Speaker 3: given DGC this demo track for their Rarities record, like 613 00:31:36,796 --> 00:31:38,276 Speaker 3: a year and a half before that. I had given 614 00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:42,636 Speaker 3: them Eindstein on the Beach, and because we never played 615 00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:44,916 Speaker 3: on recording Einstein for August and everything after. I thought 616 00:31:44,916 --> 00:31:46,596 Speaker 3: it was a clever song, but not a great song. 617 00:31:47,116 --> 00:31:48,956 Speaker 3: I had no interest in putting it on our record, 618 00:31:49,476 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 3: and I completely forgot about it. Did you Se had 619 00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:54,436 Speaker 3: asked me early on you have anything we can put 620 00:31:54,476 --> 00:31:56,556 Speaker 3: on this Rarities record. I was like, yeah, take this thing. 621 00:31:56,596 --> 00:31:58,916 Speaker 3: I'm not using it. And then when I told them 622 00:31:58,956 --> 00:32:00,956 Speaker 3: no singles, because the next single would have been Ranking, 623 00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:03,316 Speaker 3: which is what we always thought was the big single 624 00:32:03,356 --> 00:32:09,396 Speaker 3: off the record, Mister Jones was like a humble h 625 00:32:10,156 --> 00:32:13,796 Speaker 3: introductory track that was catchy, and round Here was a 626 00:32:13,796 --> 00:32:16,396 Speaker 3: real statement of purpose that was going to define the band. 627 00:32:16,756 --> 00:32:19,516 Speaker 3: And then we thought rain King will be the hit, 628 00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:21,476 Speaker 3: which because these used to do that back in you 629 00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:25,236 Speaker 3: put out introductory tracks, you know, and and I refused 630 00:32:25,236 --> 00:32:28,156 Speaker 3: to put out Ranking after round Here was so big 631 00:32:28,756 --> 00:32:30,716 Speaker 3: and the record was so big, I was like, no, no, 632 00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:32,716 Speaker 3: no more. We need to put this down so we 633 00:32:32,716 --> 00:32:36,836 Speaker 3: can have a career. And then and then they released 634 00:32:37,956 --> 00:32:40,996 Speaker 3: the Rarities album and put I said on the beach 635 00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:45,076 Speaker 3: to radio. So I was worried that Ranking was too pop, 636 00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 3: and what ended up coming out was way more pop 637 00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:50,116 Speaker 3: than rain King. It was this demo I sat on 638 00:32:50,116 --> 00:32:54,076 Speaker 3: the beach which was and that went straight to number one, 639 00:32:54,436 --> 00:32:57,916 Speaker 3: like and then after that, every song on the record 640 00:32:57,956 --> 00:32:59,996 Speaker 3: went up the radio charts on their own for a while. 641 00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:02,196 Speaker 3: One at a time. It seemed like almost every song 642 00:33:02,236 --> 00:33:04,716 Speaker 3: on the record was getting played on the radio over 643 00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:07,276 Speaker 3: the next two or three years, so there was no 644 00:33:07,316 --> 00:33:10,716 Speaker 3: controlling it after that. It just is I might as 645 00:33:10,756 --> 00:33:12,796 Speaker 3: well have just put out ranking because it would have 646 00:33:12,796 --> 00:33:15,556 Speaker 3: been probably better for us and not. You know, but 647 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:17,676 Speaker 3: after a while, you can't blame people. Your radio stations 648 00:33:17,716 --> 00:33:20,076 Speaker 3: will play it to death because they get their advertising 649 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:23,196 Speaker 3: dollars from playing popular things. So if you're too popular, 650 00:33:23,276 --> 00:33:25,036 Speaker 3: it's not a surprise that people are sick of you 651 00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:27,516 Speaker 3: at a certain point, because it's like they have no choice. 652 00:33:27,516 --> 00:33:29,556 Speaker 3: When it was radio and not Spotify, you had no 653 00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:30,356 Speaker 3: choice what you heard. 654 00:33:30,756 --> 00:33:33,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, So did you have a mentor at that point, 655 00:33:33,796 --> 00:33:36,796 Speaker 2: someone in the music industry who you could talk strategy with, 656 00:33:36,916 --> 00:33:38,716 Speaker 2: or you could just sort of try and figure out 657 00:33:38,756 --> 00:33:40,276 Speaker 2: the best way to approach all of this. 658 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:46,596 Speaker 3: No, we had really good managers. It's hard to find 659 00:33:46,716 --> 00:33:50,716 Speaker 3: anyone who doesn't want to chase success though, Like it's 660 00:33:50,716 --> 00:33:52,836 Speaker 3: hard to tell someone no, we're not putting out any 661 00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:54,716 Speaker 3: more singles because our album's doing too well, and have 662 00:33:54,796 --> 00:33:58,316 Speaker 3: anyone think you're anything but out of your fucking mind. Yeah, 663 00:33:58,356 --> 00:34:00,636 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I mean, because they want 664 00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:01,956 Speaker 3: to hit while the iron is hot. They want to 665 00:34:01,956 --> 00:34:03,676 Speaker 3: make the money right now, and they are not as 666 00:34:03,676 --> 00:34:06,156 Speaker 3: concerned our managers were. But your record company is not 667 00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:09,636 Speaker 3: concerned with your career. They're concerned with selling records, and 668 00:34:10,076 --> 00:34:11,836 Speaker 3: you know, so it was really hard to tell people, no, 669 00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:14,236 Speaker 3: I don't want to do anymore. I didn't get a 670 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:18,556 Speaker 3: lot of positive responses from that, right, but I I 671 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:20,076 Speaker 3: was sure it was the right thing to do. And 672 00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:23,316 Speaker 3: I was right, you know, because we got backlash, But 673 00:34:24,276 --> 00:34:25,916 Speaker 3: you know what happens. It's hard to complain too much 674 00:34:25,916 --> 00:34:28,836 Speaker 3: about any success. It's hard enough to have that, you know. 675 00:34:28,916 --> 00:34:33,556 Speaker 3: I mean, I was very very happy with our career anyways, 676 00:34:33,596 --> 00:34:37,436 Speaker 3: and I just was so excited about the next record 677 00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:40,836 Speaker 3: and making Satellites, And it was kind of a rude 678 00:34:40,876 --> 00:34:44,316 Speaker 3: awakening to have it come out and get such a 679 00:34:45,516 --> 00:34:48,116 Speaker 3: you know, the backlash to hit it. We hadn't had much, 680 00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:50,076 Speaker 3: We barely had any bad reviews before that. 681 00:34:51,156 --> 00:34:53,956 Speaker 2: Does it make you salty when people change their mind 682 00:34:53,996 --> 00:34:57,476 Speaker 2: about albums collectively, Like if when something first comes out, 683 00:34:57,516 --> 00:35:00,196 Speaker 2: people are kind of like, ah, these guys are overexposed. 684 00:35:00,596 --> 00:35:03,676 Speaker 2: But then ten or fifteen years later it's like, oh, 685 00:35:03,716 --> 00:35:06,956 Speaker 2: I love this album. Does that piss you? I mean, 686 00:35:06,996 --> 00:35:08,196 Speaker 2: how do you like? Does that? 687 00:35:08,236 --> 00:35:09,396 Speaker 1: Pa? Like? 688 00:35:09,476 --> 00:35:12,436 Speaker 3: I'm glad at all the sort of re examination of 689 00:35:13,716 --> 00:35:16,196 Speaker 3: recovering Satellites, because I always thought it was a great record. 690 00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 3: It was annoying that it was. It wasn't just Satellites. 691 00:35:20,356 --> 00:35:22,076 Speaker 3: People were so sick of us that for ten years 692 00:35:22,116 --> 00:35:25,396 Speaker 3: at that point we didn't get People were more reviewing 693 00:35:26,036 --> 00:35:28,676 Speaker 3: who I dated than or who they thought I dated 694 00:35:28,796 --> 00:35:30,716 Speaker 3: than they were reviewing our concerts. 695 00:35:30,836 --> 00:35:31,116 Speaker 2: Yeah. 696 00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:35,036 Speaker 3: I mean that lasted from like ninety six when we 697 00:35:35,036 --> 00:35:37,836 Speaker 3: were courted, when we released Satellites, all the way up 698 00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:40,636 Speaker 3: through the first really good reviews we ever got again 699 00:35:40,836 --> 00:35:43,876 Speaker 3: were ten years later when we were released Saturday Nights 700 00:35:43,916 --> 00:35:48,676 Speaker 3: and Sunday mornings. You know, it was all through Satellites, 701 00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:53,156 Speaker 3: this desert life and hard candy. Like was hard to 702 00:35:53,156 --> 00:35:55,236 Speaker 3: buy a good review, and it was hard to buy 703 00:35:55,236 --> 00:35:57,476 Speaker 3: a good concert review even There was just a lot 704 00:35:57,516 --> 00:36:01,716 Speaker 3: of smack talk, a lot of really yea dish is 705 00:36:01,796 --> 00:36:04,996 Speaker 3: in random notes, in jokes about us in Rolling Stone 706 00:36:04,996 --> 00:36:09,556 Speaker 3: and random notes and concert reviews about girls they thought 707 00:36:09,556 --> 00:36:12,756 Speaker 3: I dated, some of whom I've never met in my wife, 708 00:36:12,836 --> 00:36:15,436 Speaker 3: you know, And there was a lot of that for 709 00:36:15,476 --> 00:36:18,876 Speaker 3: like ten years. It was a bummer because I thought 710 00:36:18,876 --> 00:36:22,036 Speaker 3: we did great work, Like I think that Recovering the 711 00:36:22,076 --> 00:36:25,956 Speaker 3: Satellites and This Desert Life and Hard Candy are great records, 712 00:36:26,396 --> 00:36:28,036 Speaker 3: and now people go back to them and talk about 713 00:36:28,036 --> 00:36:30,796 Speaker 3: all these songs they love. But in that ten year 714 00:36:30,836 --> 00:36:33,076 Speaker 3: period from like ninety six to two thousand and seven, 715 00:36:35,236 --> 00:36:36,556 Speaker 3: there were like no good reviews. 716 00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:38,676 Speaker 2: How do things ultimately turn around? 717 00:36:39,756 --> 00:36:42,556 Speaker 3: I don't know, but it turned around during Saturday nights 718 00:36:42,596 --> 00:36:46,316 Speaker 3: and Sunday mornings. It turned around, like yeah, I remember. 719 00:36:46,316 --> 00:36:49,516 Speaker 3: One thing I remember is that Rolling Stone came. It 720 00:36:49,556 --> 00:36:51,956 Speaker 3: reminded me because Brian Hyatt's going to actually interview me 721 00:36:52,036 --> 00:36:55,636 Speaker 3: for this record for Rolling Stone, and he wrote a 722 00:36:55,716 --> 00:36:58,476 Speaker 3: piece about us, I think, during Saturday nights and Sunday mornings, 723 00:36:58,516 --> 00:37:00,836 Speaker 3: and it was the first piece anyone had written on 724 00:37:00,956 --> 00:37:07,156 Speaker 3: us in Rolling Stone since August and everything after. There 725 00:37:07,156 --> 00:37:09,676 Speaker 3: had been like a few live reviews and we had 726 00:37:09,716 --> 00:37:13,556 Speaker 3: gotten mentioned in random notes, but there had never been 727 00:37:13,676 --> 00:37:17,436 Speaker 3: an article in ten years. I don't think, And so 728 00:37:17,516 --> 00:37:19,996 Speaker 3: I remember, I just remember that it happened. At that point, 729 00:37:20,076 --> 00:37:22,916 Speaker 3: I was like, WHOA. I think the Internet had changed 730 00:37:22,916 --> 00:37:25,916 Speaker 3: a lot, and there was a lot of a lot 731 00:37:25,956 --> 00:37:28,596 Speaker 3: of bands had come up that were hugely influenced by 732 00:37:28,636 --> 00:37:32,556 Speaker 3: us and talked about it quite vocally. A lot of 733 00:37:32,596 --> 00:37:36,316 Speaker 3: punk bands and a lot of emo bands were really 734 00:37:36,716 --> 00:37:40,916 Speaker 3: influenced by Counting Crows, you know, like Dashboard Confessional. This 735 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:43,556 Speaker 3: Coarraba was very vocal in talking about how much he 736 00:37:43,596 --> 00:37:46,116 Speaker 3: loved our band and how influenced he was. He covered 737 00:37:46,156 --> 00:37:49,636 Speaker 3: Angel of the Silences, the guys in Panic at Disco 738 00:37:50,236 --> 00:37:52,916 Speaker 3: would cover around here, and you know, they talked about it. 739 00:37:53,116 --> 00:37:56,276 Speaker 3: There was a lot of indie bands who came up 740 00:37:56,316 --> 00:37:58,676 Speaker 3: talking about Counting Crows. There was a tribute album made 741 00:37:58,716 --> 00:38:02,316 Speaker 3: that was all punk bands, Wow bands like Between the 742 00:38:02,356 --> 00:38:05,836 Speaker 3: Buried and Me, you know, so like and by the Internet. 743 00:38:05,876 --> 00:38:07,756 Speaker 3: It had really expanded by that time, so there was 744 00:38:07,796 --> 00:38:10,276 Speaker 3: also a lot of public locations on the Internet like 745 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:14,396 Speaker 3: Absolute Punk and uh. I just remember a lot of 746 00:38:14,836 --> 00:38:17,436 Speaker 3: reading a lot about us in those magazines as the 747 00:38:17,476 --> 00:38:19,916 Speaker 3: bands with a whole generation of bands came up that 748 00:38:19,996 --> 00:38:23,276 Speaker 3: loved our band, yeah and were very vocal talking about it. 749 00:38:23,796 --> 00:38:25,676 Speaker 3: And it kind of came from the bottom up. It 750 00:38:25,756 --> 00:38:28,836 Speaker 3: wasn't like Entertainment Weekly or Rolling Stone. It was absolute 751 00:38:28,916 --> 00:38:33,916 Speaker 3: punk net. Yeah, but also a lot of internet indie rock. 752 00:38:34,556 --> 00:38:37,276 Speaker 3: There were there were znes that were online got It, 753 00:38:37,316 --> 00:38:40,156 Speaker 3: that came up and they they talked about us a lot. 754 00:38:40,276 --> 00:38:44,076 Speaker 3: The first really good reviews I started reading happened on 755 00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:46,036 Speaker 3: online and in indie magazines. 756 00:38:46,716 --> 00:38:48,316 Speaker 2: Sounds like it was just sort of like a changing 757 00:38:48,356 --> 00:38:53,916 Speaker 2: of the guard, like a new generation of people coming in. Yeah, discovery. 758 00:38:55,276 --> 00:38:57,236 Speaker 3: But also I think it was that there there had 759 00:38:57,236 --> 00:39:01,556 Speaker 3: been that the music media industry. The media for music 760 00:39:01,556 --> 00:39:04,036 Speaker 3: industry was very gate kept in the years before that. 761 00:39:04,116 --> 00:39:07,516 Speaker 3: You had radio and you had uh, you know, Spin, 762 00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:12,276 Speaker 3: Rolling Stone, whatever, few magazines and Entertainment Weekly and people 763 00:39:12,276 --> 00:39:14,236 Speaker 3: that wrote about music. But then all of a sudden 764 00:39:14,276 --> 00:39:17,036 Speaker 3: you had thousands of yeah, you know, and like now 765 00:39:17,036 --> 00:39:20,116 Speaker 3: you have podcasts. You know. Before suddenly there was all 766 00:39:20,116 --> 00:39:23,716 Speaker 3: these people that weren't like they didn't they didn't come 767 00:39:23,796 --> 00:39:25,556 Speaker 3: up with that attitude. They were just music fans who 768 00:39:25,596 --> 00:39:28,236 Speaker 3: started their own magazines or their own podcasts or their 769 00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:32,436 Speaker 3: own you know, fanzines online, and suddenly they they thought 770 00:39:32,516 --> 00:39:34,596 Speaker 3: about things very differently. They just I just think there 771 00:39:34,596 --> 00:39:39,876 Speaker 3: had been a real old guard kind of media industry 772 00:39:40,196 --> 00:39:45,916 Speaker 3: that was suddenly expanded into you know, yeah, like you guys, 773 00:39:45,916 --> 00:39:47,916 Speaker 3: you know, like podcasts didn't exist back then. So you 774 00:39:47,956 --> 00:39:49,756 Speaker 3: have all these people who have their opinions. They don't 775 00:39:49,756 --> 00:39:54,276 Speaker 3: come from like five people. They didn't come right from, 776 00:39:54,516 --> 00:39:56,476 Speaker 3: you know, like a journalist who worked at one of 777 00:39:56,556 --> 00:39:59,036 Speaker 3: four magazines who wrote music reviews. There used to be 778 00:39:59,796 --> 00:40:04,356 Speaker 3: you know, Time, Newsweek, Rolling Stone, Spin, Entertainment Weekly, people, 779 00:40:04,636 --> 00:40:05,956 Speaker 3: and a couple other you know what I mean. That 780 00:40:06,036 --> 00:40:12,156 Speaker 3: was it, And now there's a whole mega media industry 781 00:40:12,156 --> 00:40:15,436 Speaker 3: that comes from everywhere else. You know, it's it's everybody. 782 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:21,596 Speaker 3: Every man and every woman has their own soapbox now yeah, yeah, 783 00:40:21,636 --> 00:40:24,196 Speaker 3: and their own outlet, so that that gatekeeper is not 784 00:40:24,236 --> 00:40:24,876 Speaker 3: there anymore. 785 00:40:25,076 --> 00:40:27,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome. I thought it was really awesome. I 786 00:40:27,396 --> 00:40:29,076 Speaker 2: heard you. I don't know where it was, but I 787 00:40:29,116 --> 00:40:32,156 Speaker 2: heard that you were a women's study major in college. 788 00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:36,516 Speaker 3: Yeah. I was for the first few years. I was 789 00:40:36,556 --> 00:40:37,756 Speaker 3: an accident, you know. 790 00:40:37,996 --> 00:40:42,156 Speaker 2: I was that like the easy, the easy major to 791 00:40:42,196 --> 00:40:42,636 Speaker 2: get into. 792 00:40:43,196 --> 00:40:45,876 Speaker 3: No, it was really hard. It was. It was the opposite. 793 00:40:45,916 --> 00:40:48,116 Speaker 3: It was by far the hardest series of courses I've 794 00:40:48,156 --> 00:40:49,596 Speaker 3: ever taken in in my life. 795 00:40:49,636 --> 00:40:50,756 Speaker 2: Where'd you go to college? 796 00:40:51,196 --> 00:40:53,116 Speaker 3: The first couple of years at Davis and then at Berkeley. 797 00:40:53,316 --> 00:40:54,956 Speaker 2: Oh sweet, I went to Berklyn too. 798 00:40:55,236 --> 00:41:00,196 Speaker 3: So it was I had. I was brought up in 799 00:41:00,396 --> 00:41:02,596 Speaker 3: very much like a women's lib household. My mother was 800 00:41:02,636 --> 00:41:05,436 Speaker 3: an early member of NOW in the early seventies, you know, 801 00:41:05,556 --> 00:41:08,836 Speaker 3: like we went to NOW meetings, you know, and NOW 802 00:41:08,876 --> 00:41:12,236 Speaker 3: sell librations in Houston when we lived in Houston during 803 00:41:12,276 --> 00:41:14,636 Speaker 3: that week when Billy Jean King was playing Bobby Riggs 804 00:41:14,636 --> 00:41:18,156 Speaker 3: and we had that first issue of Miss magazine that 805 00:41:18,196 --> 00:41:22,036 Speaker 3: came out of was it in Life magazine? The pull 806 00:41:22,076 --> 00:41:24,276 Speaker 3: out with Glorious Stein, And you know, I was brought 807 00:41:24,316 --> 00:41:27,676 Speaker 3: up in that very much. And I but I had 808 00:41:27,756 --> 00:41:31,196 Speaker 3: a lot of budding heads with my mom as a kid. 809 00:41:31,476 --> 00:41:36,796 Speaker 3: And she had left to go to medical school when 810 00:41:36,796 --> 00:41:40,036 Speaker 3: I was like fifteen, so she was away a lot 811 00:41:40,036 --> 00:41:42,396 Speaker 3: of that time. And when I was applying to college 812 00:41:43,276 --> 00:41:45,556 Speaker 3: or I just got into college, I remember having a 813 00:41:45,556 --> 00:41:47,316 Speaker 3: big argument with her one day about something. She called 814 00:41:47,356 --> 00:41:49,156 Speaker 3: me a chauvinist about it, and I was like, fuck you, 815 00:41:49,196 --> 00:41:52,956 Speaker 3: I'm not a Schouvenis. And I went upstairs and I 816 00:41:53,036 --> 00:41:56,316 Speaker 3: was filling out my course things, and I I think 817 00:41:56,356 --> 00:41:59,756 Speaker 3: I picked this my sixth choice, Social History of American 818 00:41:59,796 --> 00:42:02,596 Speaker 3: Women in the Family. I wasn't going to get it, 819 00:42:02,596 --> 00:42:04,356 Speaker 3: and I was like, see, I'm not shown I'm taking 820 00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:08,516 Speaker 3: women's studies courses, so fuck you, you know. And then I 821 00:42:08,556 --> 00:42:11,356 Speaker 3: went up for orientation week and I spent the entire 822 00:42:11,396 --> 00:42:15,076 Speaker 3: time getting stoned and drunk and didn't get into some 823 00:42:15,116 --> 00:42:17,316 Speaker 3: of my other classes and never bothered to try and 824 00:42:17,636 --> 00:42:20,516 Speaker 3: switch the courses. So I ended up in Social History 825 00:42:20,516 --> 00:42:24,116 Speaker 3: of American Women in the Family, which I had never 826 00:42:24,156 --> 00:42:25,996 Speaker 3: intended to take. I will say this on my pot. 827 00:42:26,036 --> 00:42:27,836 Speaker 3: I don't think I was ever a chauvinist, but I 828 00:42:27,916 --> 00:42:29,836 Speaker 3: was totally full of shit proving it to my mom 829 00:42:29,916 --> 00:42:32,236 Speaker 3: by that course. But I ended up in the course, 830 00:42:32,876 --> 00:42:37,556 Speaker 3: and it was incredible. It was like two hundred women 831 00:42:37,796 --> 00:42:40,796 Speaker 3: and four guys in the class, you know, And I 832 00:42:40,836 --> 00:42:42,796 Speaker 3: had probably more of a background in that stuff than 833 00:42:42,836 --> 00:42:44,796 Speaker 3: any of the other guys, because I literally had grown 834 00:42:44,876 --> 00:42:50,676 Speaker 3: up in the movement. But I didn't know all the stuff. 835 00:42:50,676 --> 00:42:52,956 Speaker 3: I hadn't read the literature, you know. You read The 836 00:42:52,956 --> 00:42:56,596 Speaker 3: Feminine Mystique by Betty for Dan and The Yellow Wallpaper 837 00:42:56,596 --> 00:43:01,596 Speaker 3: by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, and you know, I was I mean, 838 00:43:01,676 --> 00:43:06,476 Speaker 3: it's a whole half of our society that is, you know, 839 00:43:08,516 --> 00:43:12,516 Speaker 3: flopped especially. I mean it was different, somewhat better than 840 00:43:12,636 --> 00:43:15,836 Speaker 3: but you know, it's still Reagan time, so that the 841 00:43:16,396 --> 00:43:19,476 Speaker 3: promise of the era and the early seventies hadn't really 842 00:43:19,516 --> 00:43:23,796 Speaker 3: come about. In the early eighties. When I was in college, 843 00:43:24,396 --> 00:43:26,556 Speaker 3: it was just so good. It was really hard. We 844 00:43:26,596 --> 00:43:28,236 Speaker 3: had to read an enormous amount, we had to write 845 00:43:28,236 --> 00:43:32,276 Speaker 3: an enormous amount, and I basically, I mean it was 846 00:43:32,316 --> 00:43:35,396 Speaker 3: bullshit me taking it in the first place. But I 847 00:43:35,476 --> 00:43:39,956 Speaker 3: took every single course offered. I only stopped being a Women' 848 00:43:39,956 --> 00:43:43,236 Speaker 3: studies major because I realized I was writing songs, and 849 00:43:43,716 --> 00:43:45,996 Speaker 3: I became an English major. I was getting straight a's 850 00:43:45,996 --> 00:43:47,516 Speaker 3: in my English classes, and I realized it was just 851 00:43:47,556 --> 00:43:50,636 Speaker 3: too easy. I took that my freshman year fall term, 852 00:43:50,836 --> 00:43:53,956 Speaker 3: I took women's studies class. I took a women in 853 00:43:53,996 --> 00:43:58,596 Speaker 3: poetry class. I read Carolyn Foschet's poetry, which is hugely 854 00:43:59,156 --> 00:44:02,876 Speaker 3: and I got the first RAM record and those things, 855 00:44:03,036 --> 00:44:05,796 Speaker 3: and I wrote my first song. I love all those 856 00:44:05,836 --> 00:44:09,236 Speaker 3: things together because they very much informed. My sister was 857 00:44:09,556 --> 00:44:12,316 Speaker 3: sixteen and at home, my mom was off at medical school. 858 00:44:12,876 --> 00:44:14,956 Speaker 3: Sixteen is a hard time to be a girl, and 859 00:44:15,036 --> 00:44:17,476 Speaker 3: she was struggling with it, especially with your mother out 860 00:44:17,476 --> 00:44:22,156 Speaker 3: of town. And my first song was written about, like, 861 00:44:23,396 --> 00:44:29,116 Speaker 3: you know, the difficulty she was having. It was very informed, 862 00:44:29,996 --> 00:44:32,796 Speaker 3: it was very informed by like everything I was reading 863 00:44:32,796 --> 00:44:36,756 Speaker 3: and thinking about, and you know, I was just But 864 00:44:36,756 --> 00:44:38,796 Speaker 3: once I started writing songs, I started writing every day. 865 00:44:38,796 --> 00:44:40,716 Speaker 3: It's all I did was write songs. And I realized 866 00:44:40,716 --> 00:44:44,436 Speaker 3: that I couldn't do that really at Davis. I'm not 867 00:44:44,436 --> 00:44:46,436 Speaker 3: I can write, but there I couldn't start a band. 868 00:44:46,476 --> 00:44:48,276 Speaker 3: The bands that were all cover bands, they played at 869 00:44:48,276 --> 00:44:51,076 Speaker 3: frat parties or anything I really wanted to do. I 870 00:44:51,116 --> 00:44:53,476 Speaker 3: needed to go to Berkeley and I also needed to 871 00:44:53,516 --> 00:44:55,396 Speaker 3: go there for the English to become an English major, 872 00:44:55,436 --> 00:44:56,436 Speaker 3: to learn to really write. 873 00:44:56,476 --> 00:44:58,996 Speaker 2: I thought, did you graduate? 874 00:45:00,036 --> 00:45:03,076 Speaker 3: I did not turn in my thesis. I'm missing one paper. 875 00:45:03,836 --> 00:45:05,316 Speaker 2: Oh man, come on. 876 00:45:06,036 --> 00:45:08,476 Speaker 3: I was writing my thesis on HD Hill to do Little, 877 00:45:08,676 --> 00:45:12,956 Speaker 3: the the poet who was an expatriate living in London 878 00:45:12,996 --> 00:45:15,116 Speaker 3: during the Blitz. She had the poem called the Walls 879 00:45:15,156 --> 00:45:16,876 Speaker 3: Do Not Fall, and it was an epic poem. I 880 00:45:16,916 --> 00:45:20,956 Speaker 3: was writing my thesis on that and it just wasn't 881 00:45:21,076 --> 00:45:25,556 Speaker 3: very good at all. I knew it wasn't very good. 882 00:45:25,596 --> 00:45:27,716 Speaker 3: The more I wrote songs, the harder it was for 883 00:45:27,836 --> 00:45:30,876 Speaker 3: me to write essays. It's a very different style of writing. 884 00:45:30,956 --> 00:45:35,236 Speaker 3: Like one comes from this wealth of feeling and then 885 00:45:35,276 --> 00:45:37,436 Speaker 3: you try and find ways to hone it down into 886 00:45:37,916 --> 00:45:40,596 Speaker 3: a craft, and the other one comes from a bunch 887 00:45:40,596 --> 00:45:44,356 Speaker 3: of thought processes and an idea, and then you support 888 00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:46,716 Speaker 3: the arguments in an essay and they're kind of backwards 889 00:45:46,796 --> 00:45:49,916 Speaker 3: versions of each other. And the more I became really 890 00:45:50,476 --> 00:45:53,236 Speaker 3: like I spent all day writing songs for two or 891 00:45:53,276 --> 00:45:56,116 Speaker 3: three years there, the harder it was to write essays. 892 00:45:56,156 --> 00:45:58,956 Speaker 3: I just couldn't think that way very well anymore. And 893 00:45:59,916 --> 00:46:02,116 Speaker 3: like to this day, I don't write songs with ideas, 894 00:46:02,676 --> 00:46:04,236 Speaker 3: Like I don't have an idea for a song and 895 00:46:04,236 --> 00:46:06,836 Speaker 3: then write it really, I mean, not like a theme. 896 00:46:07,556 --> 00:46:11,196 Speaker 2: I might have a line starts with a line usually. 897 00:46:10,996 --> 00:46:13,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I don't have like an idea like whenever 898 00:46:13,956 --> 00:46:17,476 Speaker 3: I try and do that right thematically, it's terrible. Ever 899 00:46:17,476 --> 00:46:19,596 Speaker 3: since I started writing songs, I can't write that way, 900 00:46:20,396 --> 00:46:22,196 Speaker 3: and I was really struggling with it. At that point 901 00:46:22,236 --> 00:46:24,636 Speaker 3: I had this I had was all done except for 902 00:46:24,716 --> 00:46:26,316 Speaker 3: you know, as an English major, Brookeley, you needed to 903 00:46:26,316 --> 00:46:29,956 Speaker 3: write a thesis and it just wasn't very good. And 904 00:46:29,996 --> 00:46:31,596 Speaker 3: so I went to run professor, and I said, look, 905 00:46:31,596 --> 00:46:34,236 Speaker 3: I need an extension on this. I'm gonna have taken 906 00:46:34,276 --> 00:46:36,236 Speaker 3: incomplete because it's I just this. I'm not a turn 907 00:46:36,316 --> 00:46:39,156 Speaker 3: this in. It's not very good. You know, it's probably 908 00:46:39,356 --> 00:46:41,476 Speaker 3: I probably would have passed. I'm sure it was a sea. 909 00:46:41,436 --> 00:46:43,996 Speaker 2: That's a paper, but it wasn't fine. 910 00:46:44,476 --> 00:46:46,076 Speaker 3: It was a weird way to sum up your college 911 00:46:46,116 --> 00:46:48,516 Speaker 3: experience by getting a C, you know, or something like that. 912 00:46:48,996 --> 00:46:51,356 Speaker 3: And so she said, look, just you know, you need 913 00:46:51,396 --> 00:46:53,596 Speaker 3: to just try and do it right away. Because people 914 00:46:54,036 --> 00:46:56,756 Speaker 3: if they get it done in the first semester after, 915 00:46:57,356 --> 00:46:59,196 Speaker 3: they tend to get it done. If they don't, they 916 00:46:59,196 --> 00:47:02,076 Speaker 3: tend to not get it done. So I understand, just 917 00:47:02,676 --> 00:47:04,396 Speaker 3: get it done, and I never did. 918 00:47:04,836 --> 00:47:08,316 Speaker 2: So were your parents upset with you? 919 00:47:08,356 --> 00:47:12,436 Speaker 3: No? I mean, I don't know. I mean not now. 920 00:47:12,596 --> 00:47:15,516 Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, look, I wanted to learn to 921 00:47:15,516 --> 00:47:17,956 Speaker 3: be a writer, and I did. I mean, and I 922 00:47:18,396 --> 00:47:21,236 Speaker 3: owe it all to Berkeley and Davis. But they were great. 923 00:47:21,476 --> 00:47:23,436 Speaker 3: I mean they taught me to be a writer, and 924 00:47:24,596 --> 00:47:27,116 Speaker 3: I am. And many of my thesis I've written since 925 00:47:27,116 --> 00:47:29,596 Speaker 3: then have sold briskly, you know, Like I mean, I 926 00:47:29,596 --> 00:47:33,076 Speaker 3: feel like I got everything out of them in a 927 00:47:33,116 --> 00:47:37,476 Speaker 3: really good way. And I really It's come up before 928 00:47:37,476 --> 00:47:39,836 Speaker 3: about honorary degrees from them and stuff, and I like to. 929 00:47:39,876 --> 00:47:41,996 Speaker 2: Say, I owe you an honorary degree, but. 930 00:47:41,956 --> 00:47:43,516 Speaker 3: I don't really want it. It came up and I 931 00:47:43,556 --> 00:47:48,476 Speaker 3: sort of said no because I feel like it's not respectful. 932 00:47:48,476 --> 00:47:51,116 Speaker 3: I don't know, I really respect my time there. Yeah, 933 00:47:51,156 --> 00:47:54,196 Speaker 3: but I didn't graduate. I didn't turn in my thesis, 934 00:47:54,316 --> 00:47:56,916 Speaker 3: and so I don't really think I should get a degree. 935 00:47:57,876 --> 00:47:59,476 Speaker 2: I wonder if you can still turn it in. 936 00:48:00,756 --> 00:48:03,556 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I'm not going to. I mean, 937 00:48:03,556 --> 00:48:06,636 Speaker 3: I really, I really it worked. I really I respect 938 00:48:06,716 --> 00:48:08,996 Speaker 3: college and I got everything out of college, like say, 939 00:48:09,476 --> 00:48:11,436 Speaker 3: most English mixtures, don't, you know what I mean, Like 940 00:48:11,476 --> 00:48:12,756 Speaker 3: I don't know how it works out for them, but 941 00:48:12,796 --> 00:48:14,636 Speaker 3: not like it worked out for me, Like it's been. 942 00:48:15,236 --> 00:48:18,756 Speaker 3: I have the utmost respect for everything I got out 943 00:48:18,756 --> 00:48:21,356 Speaker 3: of Berkeley, and I have me too, But you know, 944 00:48:21,556 --> 00:48:24,436 Speaker 3: I feel fine without the degree. It worked out great, 945 00:48:24,636 --> 00:48:27,076 Speaker 3: you know, like I'm the very rare English major who 946 00:48:27,156 --> 00:48:31,876 Speaker 3: actually is a professional writer, you know, and very successful. Yeah, 947 00:48:32,676 --> 00:48:33,796 Speaker 3: and I got it all from them. 948 00:48:34,996 --> 00:48:36,916 Speaker 1: After one last break, were back with the rest of 949 00:48:36,996 --> 00:48:38,916 Speaker 1: Lea Rose and Adam Durretz. 950 00:48:43,636 --> 00:48:45,036 Speaker 2: Are you a short story reader? 951 00:48:46,196 --> 00:48:49,116 Speaker 3: Not anymore? Really? I used to a long time ago. 952 00:48:49,596 --> 00:48:50,476 Speaker 2: What do you read now? 953 00:48:51,956 --> 00:48:54,316 Speaker 3: Oh, I read a lot of crap now. I used 954 00:48:54,316 --> 00:48:55,996 Speaker 3: to read a lot of history and a lot of fiction, 955 00:48:56,516 --> 00:48:58,396 Speaker 3: and I mostly just read sci fi and stuff now 956 00:48:58,396 --> 00:49:01,916 Speaker 3: because I mostly use my reading on the treadmill. Oh, 957 00:49:01,956 --> 00:49:04,116 Speaker 3: I work out. I read on the treadmill, and I. 958 00:49:04,036 --> 00:49:06,316 Speaker 2: Work out, like do you run or walk and read 959 00:49:06,636 --> 00:49:08,676 Speaker 2: both and read a book? 960 00:49:09,356 --> 00:49:12,956 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I use my I use my kindle. I 961 00:49:13,076 --> 00:49:15,396 Speaker 3: mostly just read sci fi when I'm reading books. Now 962 00:49:15,396 --> 00:49:18,516 Speaker 3: I don't really. That was another problem I had. I 963 00:49:18,596 --> 00:49:21,156 Speaker 3: started to have more problems in the latter part of 964 00:49:22,876 --> 00:49:26,996 Speaker 3: my forties. I had a lot of trouble reading some 965 00:49:27,076 --> 00:49:29,916 Speaker 3: of the dissociative stuff fucked with my ability to focus 966 00:49:29,996 --> 00:49:32,516 Speaker 3: that way, and so I didn't read anything at all 967 00:49:32,596 --> 00:49:36,156 Speaker 3: for a number of years, really, And then I got 968 00:49:36,196 --> 00:49:39,036 Speaker 3: back into it on the treadmill. And now I read 969 00:49:39,036 --> 00:49:43,556 Speaker 3: a ton none of which is you knowature, great literature. 970 00:49:43,556 --> 00:49:45,636 Speaker 3: But I read all I do. I read all the 971 00:49:45,676 --> 00:49:48,116 Speaker 3: time now, constantly, And then I get on the treadmill 972 00:49:48,196 --> 00:49:50,116 Speaker 3: and I come up again, read more and get on 973 00:49:50,196 --> 00:49:51,956 Speaker 3: the treadmill and read, and yeah. 974 00:49:52,116 --> 00:49:54,156 Speaker 2: Nice. It seems I could be hard to run and read, but. 975 00:49:54,836 --> 00:49:58,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it is. But it works for me somehow. 976 00:49:58,236 --> 00:50:02,676 Speaker 3: You know a few years ago when Bob when Sagitt died, Yeah, 977 00:50:02,756 --> 00:50:06,156 Speaker 3: my girlfriend came to me and said, that was really scary. 978 00:50:06,596 --> 00:50:10,596 Speaker 3: I wish you would be a little healthier, you getting older, 979 00:50:10,636 --> 00:50:15,276 Speaker 3: and I wish you would I would just feel better. Yeah, 980 00:50:15,276 --> 00:50:17,076 Speaker 3: And I was like, you know, and after years of 981 00:50:17,116 --> 00:50:20,916 Speaker 3: not taking that shit seriously, I started getting on the 982 00:50:20,916 --> 00:50:24,196 Speaker 3: treadmill every day, and for like three or four years now, 983 00:50:24,236 --> 00:50:28,916 Speaker 3: I've been every day and going to the gym. And 984 00:50:29,116 --> 00:50:31,316 Speaker 3: but the book, the reading really helped it. Like I 985 00:50:31,556 --> 00:50:34,556 Speaker 3: found that it really worked for me. But I can't 986 00:50:34,556 --> 00:50:36,556 Speaker 3: think too much about what I'm reading. I just I 987 00:50:36,596 --> 00:50:38,956 Speaker 3: just want to plot. Yeah. 988 00:50:38,956 --> 00:50:40,996 Speaker 2: Well, whatever works, I mean, whatever gets you on the 989 00:50:41,036 --> 00:50:43,236 Speaker 2: treadmill and keeps you on there is a good thing. 990 00:50:43,316 --> 00:50:46,116 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I read books about music sometimes. 991 00:50:46,196 --> 00:50:50,196 Speaker 3: I read like I read Joe Boyd's book White Bicycles 992 00:50:50,236 --> 00:50:51,956 Speaker 3: on it here. It's a fantastic book about that. 993 00:50:51,996 --> 00:50:52,836 Speaker 2: Oh I haven't heard of that. 994 00:50:53,116 --> 00:50:56,276 Speaker 3: He was the producer who produced a parrot work convention 995 00:50:56,436 --> 00:50:59,356 Speaker 3: in Nick Drake, a lot of different stuff, Richard and 996 00:50:59,396 --> 00:51:02,076 Speaker 3: Linda Thompson and a lot a lot of different and 997 00:51:02,116 --> 00:51:07,676 Speaker 3: he wrote this great book about life and the music, 998 00:51:07,916 --> 00:51:10,196 Speaker 3: kind of in the English folks. Even though he's an American. 999 00:51:10,916 --> 00:51:13,676 Speaker 3: He's actually the sound guy. Did you see a complete unknown? 1000 00:51:14,236 --> 00:51:14,756 Speaker 2: I did not? 1001 00:51:15,436 --> 00:51:20,076 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, he's he's the sound guy at at Newport 1002 00:51:20,476 --> 00:51:23,636 Speaker 3: who refuses to turn down. That was actually Joe Boyd. 1003 00:51:23,916 --> 00:51:25,476 Speaker 3: They don't identify him in the film, but I know 1004 00:51:25,556 --> 00:51:26,876 Speaker 3: they do in the credits, and it's him. 1005 00:51:27,156 --> 00:51:27,796 Speaker 2: Oh, very cool. 1006 00:51:27,876 --> 00:51:28,036 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1007 00:51:28,036 --> 00:51:29,596 Speaker 2: I'm waiting for it to come on streaming so I 1008 00:51:29,596 --> 00:51:29,956 Speaker 2: don't have. 1009 00:51:29,876 --> 00:51:34,276 Speaker 3: To hear it's so good. I hate, hate, hate movies 1010 00:51:34,316 --> 00:51:37,876 Speaker 3: about music. I hate they're always such bullshit and they're 1011 00:51:37,876 --> 00:51:41,076 Speaker 3: always like, oh, he he's this what he's terrible with people? 1012 00:51:41,116 --> 00:51:45,676 Speaker 3: Unlet's show you know it's so good. I was prepared 1013 00:51:45,756 --> 00:51:50,436 Speaker 3: to hate it, and it's just so fucking good. Wow, 1014 00:51:51,156 --> 00:51:55,196 Speaker 3: it is so great. I don't I can't believe it is. 1015 00:51:56,036 --> 00:51:57,996 Speaker 3: I still can't believe it's that good a movie, and 1016 00:51:58,036 --> 00:52:01,236 Speaker 3: it is. I've seen it twice now, Wow, two movies 1017 00:52:01,236 --> 00:52:04,996 Speaker 3: I've seen recently that blew my mind? Were that and 1018 00:52:05,076 --> 00:52:07,716 Speaker 3: becoming led Zeppelin the documentary see. 1019 00:52:07,596 --> 00:52:09,516 Speaker 2: That either it's actually playing it at the near me. 1020 00:52:09,516 --> 00:52:10,476 Speaker 2: I want to go see it in a theater. 1021 00:52:10,556 --> 00:52:13,236 Speaker 3: It should go. It's so good and they're both good 1022 00:52:13,236 --> 00:52:16,356 Speaker 3: for the same reason. They both play full songs. The 1023 00:52:16,396 --> 00:52:19,276 Speaker 3: movie does too. The movie like actually plays songs like 1024 00:52:19,396 --> 00:52:21,436 Speaker 3: real performances that are great. 1025 00:52:21,756 --> 00:52:23,036 Speaker 2: But is it shall Amy singing? 1026 00:52:23,956 --> 00:52:29,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, fucking bizarre that it's any good. Yeah, him and 1027 00:52:29,316 --> 00:52:33,876 Speaker 3: a girl Monica Barbara who plays Joe Bias. Yeah, they're 1028 00:52:33,876 --> 00:52:37,676 Speaker 3: both so good, and they're so good together. Ed Norton 1029 00:52:37,756 --> 00:52:41,116 Speaker 3: as Pete Seeger is it's you've never seen Ed Norton 1030 00:52:41,156 --> 00:52:44,276 Speaker 3: in a role like this, and he's fucking great. The 1031 00:52:44,316 --> 00:52:48,636 Speaker 3: guy that plays Woody Guthrie Scoop McNairy, who does the 1032 00:52:48,796 --> 00:52:51,836 Speaker 3: almost he's a mute at that point in his life 1033 00:52:51,876 --> 00:52:54,716 Speaker 3: for the most part because he's been so sick and 1034 00:52:54,836 --> 00:52:58,716 Speaker 3: so it's mostly with his eyes. He's it's just such 1035 00:52:58,716 --> 00:53:02,836 Speaker 3: a good movie. You gotta see it. I'm those two 1036 00:53:02,956 --> 00:53:08,076 Speaker 3: movies for music fans are like, Wow, Like what a 1037 00:53:08,276 --> 00:53:11,836 Speaker 3: lush treat. Both those movies are. They're so they give 1038 00:53:11,996 --> 00:53:12,476 Speaker 3: so much. 1039 00:53:12,956 --> 00:53:13,236 Speaker 2: Wow. 1040 00:53:13,636 --> 00:53:17,636 Speaker 3: They don't think of you as having no attention span, Yeah, 1041 00:53:17,676 --> 00:53:19,156 Speaker 3: which is a way I think a lot of movies 1042 00:53:19,156 --> 00:53:20,836 Speaker 3: about music think you have the attention span of a 1043 00:53:20,836 --> 00:53:23,756 Speaker 3: four year old. Yeah, you know, and these ones do 1044 00:53:23,876 --> 00:53:27,636 Speaker 3: not treat you like that, and they're really good. I 1045 00:53:27,716 --> 00:53:30,116 Speaker 3: tell you, I fucking hate movies about music. 1046 00:53:30,476 --> 00:53:32,196 Speaker 2: Do you like docs though? Music docs? 1047 00:53:32,636 --> 00:53:35,196 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah? Some docs more yeah, but very few. But 1048 00:53:35,276 --> 00:53:41,476 Speaker 3: so many docs are just like so they're there bench 1049 00:53:41,756 --> 00:53:43,876 Speaker 3: a lot of people who make documentaries. There benchmark for 1050 00:53:43,916 --> 00:53:47,556 Speaker 3: how to make great documentary is behind the music. Yeah, 1051 00:53:47,756 --> 00:53:51,396 Speaker 3: that's okay, it should not be. That shouldn't. But this, 1052 00:53:51,596 --> 00:53:56,636 Speaker 3: like that Depinely movie, it's fucking great. It's benchmark is 1053 00:53:56,676 --> 00:53:57,556 Speaker 3: closer to get. 1054 00:53:57,396 --> 00:54:00,356 Speaker 2: Back, Get Back with incredible. 1055 00:54:00,836 --> 00:54:03,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so is this. You're You're gonna blow your 1056 00:54:03,476 --> 00:54:05,596 Speaker 3: mind when you see it. Like there are at least 1057 00:54:05,676 --> 00:54:09,916 Speaker 3: four maybe five full song performance is in that movie. 1058 00:54:10,116 --> 00:54:13,196 Speaker 2: That's awesome, Like full songs, like aren't they incredible? 1059 00:54:14,476 --> 00:54:17,076 Speaker 3: They're so good? Like did you come. 1060 00:54:16,956 --> 00:54:19,556 Speaker 2: Away with like any new takes on Zeppelin after seeing it? 1061 00:54:20,716 --> 00:54:21,996 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of idea. I mean, 1062 00:54:22,036 --> 00:54:26,916 Speaker 3: I'm a fan, but I mean I hadn't watched you know, 1063 00:54:27,876 --> 00:54:30,996 Speaker 3: the song remains the same as not the Greatest concert movie. 1064 00:54:30,996 --> 00:54:33,876 Speaker 3: And I had seen that and been like, you know, 1065 00:54:33,956 --> 00:54:35,836 Speaker 3: but I have a lot of Zeppelin bootlegs, so I 1066 00:54:35,916 --> 00:54:37,996 Speaker 3: know how good they were, but I had never seen 1067 00:54:39,836 --> 00:54:43,076 Speaker 3: this footage like this, where like, holy shit, the first song. 1068 00:54:43,236 --> 00:54:45,076 Speaker 3: My girlfriend is not a huge zeppein fan or anything. 1069 00:54:45,396 --> 00:54:46,956 Speaker 3: She went to the movie with us and they got 1070 00:54:46,956 --> 00:54:48,316 Speaker 3: through playing the first song, which is I don't know 1071 00:54:48,316 --> 00:54:50,076 Speaker 3: if it was Heartbreaker or a Whole Lot of Love whatever. 1072 00:54:50,116 --> 00:54:52,796 Speaker 3: The first thing in the documentary is on some Dutch 1073 00:54:52,876 --> 00:54:54,436 Speaker 3: TV show or something. I don't know what it was, 1074 00:54:54,756 --> 00:54:56,356 Speaker 3: but it was over and she turned to me and 1075 00:54:56,356 --> 00:54:59,516 Speaker 3: she's like, holy shit, they're great. What a fucking band. 1076 00:54:59,596 --> 00:55:02,516 Speaker 3: And I was like, I know, unbelievable. One of the 1077 00:55:02,516 --> 00:55:05,316 Speaker 3: songs is days It Confused, ten minutes long. They played 1078 00:55:05,316 --> 00:55:06,036 Speaker 3: the whole fucking thing. 1079 00:55:06,356 --> 00:55:06,916 Speaker 2: Wow. 1080 00:55:07,236 --> 00:55:09,956 Speaker 3: And the footage they get all this great oudhood footage 1081 00:55:10,436 --> 00:55:15,116 Speaker 3: they got great, Like they don't have footage with John Bonham, 1082 00:55:15,116 --> 00:55:17,036 Speaker 3: but they have a great interview with him. It's a 1083 00:55:17,076 --> 00:55:20,356 Speaker 3: really long interview and they play it throughout the movie 1084 00:55:20,436 --> 00:55:23,276 Speaker 3: over stuff, and there's scenes of the other guys in 1085 00:55:23,316 --> 00:55:27,076 Speaker 3: the band sitting watching footage with the director while he 1086 00:55:27,076 --> 00:55:31,356 Speaker 3: plays this bonhom interview and they're they're really moved by 1087 00:55:31,396 --> 00:55:34,796 Speaker 3: seeing him and it's just fucking It's only about the 1088 00:55:34,836 --> 00:55:38,076 Speaker 3: first the time from when they're kids leading up to 1089 00:55:38,116 --> 00:55:43,796 Speaker 3: the second record, but it is sublime for a music fan, 1090 00:55:43,836 --> 00:55:44,916 Speaker 3: it's like the real deal. 1091 00:55:45,436 --> 00:55:47,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that when you see a doc and 1092 00:55:47,156 --> 00:55:49,076 Speaker 2: it sort of gives you a whole new perspective on 1093 00:55:49,116 --> 00:55:51,756 Speaker 2: a band that's that legendary. That's that's why I love 1094 00:55:51,836 --> 00:55:54,036 Speaker 2: Get Back because it was like I saw the Beatles 1095 00:55:54,076 --> 00:55:56,756 Speaker 2: in a whole different way. I understood them in a 1096 00:55:56,796 --> 00:56:00,756 Speaker 2: way that I you know, there's such an institution. It's 1097 00:56:00,756 --> 00:56:04,156 Speaker 2: hard to have new feelings or revelations about the Beatles. 1098 00:56:04,716 --> 00:56:06,836 Speaker 3: You've heard every song so many times that you know 1099 00:56:06,956 --> 00:56:10,476 Speaker 3: every last inflection, and so it doesn't give much to 1100 00:56:10,516 --> 00:56:12,716 Speaker 3: you because listening to a Beatles song is often more 1101 00:56:12,796 --> 00:56:15,916 Speaker 3: like remembering than hearing. Yes, you know, because you already 1102 00:56:15,916 --> 00:56:18,516 Speaker 3: have a memory of every inflection in the song. So 1103 00:56:18,596 --> 00:56:21,476 Speaker 3: to see them, yes, sitting around in a room, to 1104 00:56:21,476 --> 00:56:23,756 Speaker 3: see how close they all are and how they fight, 1105 00:56:24,076 --> 00:56:26,636 Speaker 3: but how good friends they are, how loving Paul and 1106 00:56:26,716 --> 00:56:31,316 Speaker 3: John at each other. Yeah, but how loving John is 1107 00:56:31,316 --> 00:56:34,196 Speaker 3: with Yoko, and how loving Paul Is with Yoko that 1108 00:56:34,356 --> 00:56:38,356 Speaker 3: like all these legends of all the wedding heads and everything, 1109 00:56:38,356 --> 00:56:41,356 Speaker 3: all the bitterness, you realize that some of that is 1110 00:56:41,396 --> 00:56:43,276 Speaker 3: just like a bad day. 1111 00:56:43,996 --> 00:56:46,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, to see George's yearning, like I want 1112 00:56:46,636 --> 00:56:49,876 Speaker 2: to contribute more than I'm allowed to. My voice isn't valued, 1113 00:56:49,916 --> 00:56:52,316 Speaker 2: like you see all of this, and Ringo just kind 1114 00:56:52,316 --> 00:56:53,676 Speaker 2: of like hanging back. 1115 00:56:53,796 --> 00:56:57,516 Speaker 3: And but how he is, how every time they start 1116 00:56:57,636 --> 00:57:00,876 Speaker 3: was a bizarre song idea. Ringo has the perfect fucking beat. 1117 00:57:00,916 --> 00:57:02,836 Speaker 3: He's just there. I don't know, you know, if you're 1118 00:57:02,876 --> 00:57:04,476 Speaker 3: a musician or not, but like, one of the hardest 1119 00:57:04,476 --> 00:57:06,276 Speaker 3: things about being in a band is if you have 1120 00:57:06,316 --> 00:57:09,036 Speaker 3: a drummer, it is so hard to work on new materials. 1121 00:57:09,196 --> 00:57:12,956 Speaker 3: Don't have a drummer who is good at that that 1122 00:57:12,956 --> 00:57:16,516 Speaker 3: particular skill of keeping the beat but not getting in 1123 00:57:16,556 --> 00:57:19,716 Speaker 3: the way as a drummer, and therefore stalling new material 1124 00:57:19,756 --> 00:57:21,356 Speaker 3: because you don't know what to play yet and everything 1125 00:57:21,356 --> 00:57:23,956 Speaker 3: you're doing is fucking it up. Ringo is there every 1126 00:57:23,996 --> 00:57:27,996 Speaker 3: time with something original and cool and like they're writing 1127 00:57:28,076 --> 00:57:30,916 Speaker 3: and he's supporting and the songs take off because he's 1128 00:57:31,156 --> 00:57:36,236 Speaker 3: so good and so easy, I know. But when he 1129 00:57:36,276 --> 00:57:39,396 Speaker 3: comes in it's like like get back itself. Who would 1130 00:57:39,396 --> 00:57:42,236 Speaker 3: to think to go? You would think do get back? 1131 00:57:42,316 --> 00:57:45,916 Speaker 3: But he's like dun who thinks to do like a 1132 00:57:45,956 --> 00:57:48,756 Speaker 3: fucking marching beat like that? But he does. And it's 1133 00:57:48,756 --> 00:57:52,116 Speaker 3: so good. It's the Epple movies like that because you 1134 00:57:52,156 --> 00:57:56,196 Speaker 3: really get to see them play and they're really good. 1135 00:57:56,396 --> 00:57:59,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're so good. Robert Plant is just like incredible. 1136 00:57:59,996 --> 00:58:01,436 Speaker 2: I mean all of them are incredible. 1137 00:58:02,916 --> 00:58:05,636 Speaker 3: It's blistering stuff, like it's crazy good. 1138 00:58:06,196 --> 00:58:09,476 Speaker 2: Oh that's awesome. Are you speaking of a fellow English major? 1139 00:58:09,476 --> 00:58:10,836 Speaker 2: Are you a big Paul Simon fan? 1140 00:58:11,716 --> 00:58:15,156 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, Like I mean, to me, what's your favorite album? 1141 00:58:15,436 --> 00:58:19,556 Speaker 3: Hearts and Bones? It's it's to me it's the one 1142 00:58:19,596 --> 00:58:22,156 Speaker 3: of the best written albums I've ever heard in my life. 1143 00:58:22,236 --> 00:58:23,676 Speaker 3: I mean, there's Grace fans great. 1144 00:58:23,716 --> 00:58:25,116 Speaker 2: All his albums are great. 1145 00:58:25,116 --> 00:58:27,356 Speaker 3: Hearts and Bones. I don't really love the first song. 1146 00:58:27,396 --> 00:58:29,956 Speaker 3: It's called Allergies and it's Al Daimiola playing guitar on it. 1147 00:58:30,156 --> 00:58:34,516 Speaker 3: But everything after that is the best. The songwriting on 1148 00:58:34,556 --> 00:58:38,996 Speaker 3: that record is Yeah, you should listen to it. Man. 1149 00:58:39,356 --> 00:58:43,036 Speaker 3: Hearts and Bones is and he's made a lot of 1150 00:58:43,116 --> 00:58:45,116 Speaker 3: great records and written a lot of great songs. I 1151 00:58:45,196 --> 00:58:48,996 Speaker 3: go back to that record all the time because the 1152 00:58:49,036 --> 00:58:54,036 Speaker 3: depth of the writing on it, it's just peerless to me. Yeah, 1153 00:58:54,196 --> 00:58:56,596 Speaker 3: I hear that documentary about him is so good. Everyone's 1154 00:58:56,596 --> 00:58:58,676 Speaker 3: told me that it's really really good. Oh, I had 1155 00:58:58,716 --> 00:59:00,956 Speaker 3: it came out like a year ago or two years ago. Here, 1156 00:59:00,956 --> 00:59:03,556 Speaker 3: it's amazing. Why did you ask just. 1157 00:59:03,476 --> 00:59:07,156 Speaker 2: Because Paul Simon is a I know maybe Simon and 1158 00:59:07,196 --> 00:59:12,076 Speaker 2: Garfunkle were both English majors. And also you mentioned Graceland, 1159 00:59:13,356 --> 00:59:15,836 Speaker 2: and I love Graceland, and I also feel like Graceland 1160 00:59:15,876 --> 00:59:19,876 Speaker 2: is very much like a Berkeley album, Like I don't know, 1161 00:59:19,956 --> 00:59:21,076 Speaker 2: has a Berkeley vibe to me? 1162 00:59:21,716 --> 00:59:24,316 Speaker 3: I get that. I love that record, I think, But 1163 00:59:24,356 --> 00:59:27,916 Speaker 3: I he's got so many That first record, the Paul 1164 00:59:27,956 --> 00:59:30,236 Speaker 3: Simon record that has Mother and Child Reunion on it. Oh, 1165 00:59:30,276 --> 00:59:34,596 Speaker 3: that's an incredible record. Yeah, I mean yeah, he's yeah, 1166 00:59:34,876 --> 00:59:39,116 Speaker 3: so good. He's a peerless songwriter to me, like as 1167 00:59:39,116 --> 00:59:42,076 Speaker 3: good as it comes. But that record Hearts and Bones 1168 00:59:42,156 --> 00:59:44,756 Speaker 3: is very underappreciated to me, I think because the first 1169 00:59:44,756 --> 00:59:47,596 Speaker 3: song is not a great song, but everything else is. 1170 00:59:49,196 --> 00:59:53,196 Speaker 3: I mean I I studied that a lot, Like, yeah, 1171 00:59:53,276 --> 00:59:55,436 Speaker 3: that in Graceland, I really studied a lot. There was 1172 00:59:55,436 --> 00:59:57,516 Speaker 3: a great box set when they put Graceland out. They 1173 00:59:57,596 --> 01:00:00,916 Speaker 3: had this like a spiral binder in it that had 1174 01:00:00,916 --> 01:00:03,396 Speaker 3: a bunch of stuff that songwriting. He also talked about 1175 01:00:03,436 --> 01:00:06,956 Speaker 3: like rhyming and how he would work, and he would 1176 01:00:06,996 --> 01:00:09,796 Speaker 3: make lists of words that rhyme to even ideas for 1177 01:00:09,876 --> 01:00:12,076 Speaker 3: later in the song too. I remember really thinking about 1178 01:00:12,156 --> 01:00:17,116 Speaker 3: that as I read. I think that came out as 1179 01:00:17,196 --> 01:00:21,436 Speaker 3: well as the Sondheim book. When I was working on 1180 01:00:21,636 --> 01:00:23,916 Speaker 3: the songs for Somewhere Under Wonderland and I was trying 1181 01:00:23,916 --> 01:00:26,516 Speaker 3: to write in a whole new way for myself, less 1182 01:00:26,876 --> 01:00:30,076 Speaker 3: just autobiographical plots, more about how I feel, but with 1183 01:00:30,556 --> 01:00:33,156 Speaker 3: other characters, as opposed to trying to make everything about 1184 01:00:33,196 --> 01:00:35,636 Speaker 3: my life. Could I could? I realized I could write 1185 01:00:35,676 --> 01:00:38,756 Speaker 3: how I felt without making it a plot line from 1186 01:00:38,756 --> 01:00:40,396 Speaker 3: my life, you know. And so I wrote songs like 1187 01:00:40,396 --> 01:00:44,236 Speaker 3: Pallisades Park and you know, And I really studied that 1188 01:00:44,356 --> 01:00:47,836 Speaker 3: Graceland lyric book and all the stuff, all the scribbling 1189 01:00:47,876 --> 01:00:49,956 Speaker 3: he does in the margins, with all the different rhymes, 1190 01:00:49,996 --> 01:00:53,236 Speaker 3: and really thinking about how to like how to brainstorm 1191 01:00:53,316 --> 01:00:57,236 Speaker 3: ideas for writing. I don't know that's a great record, 1192 01:00:57,556 --> 01:01:00,636 Speaker 3: I say, Hearts and Bones, because I it's not as 1193 01:01:00,676 --> 01:01:03,476 Speaker 3: innovative as Graceland by any stretch of the imagination, but 1194 01:01:04,276 --> 01:01:08,636 Speaker 3: the pure songwriting on it is just maybe the strongest 1195 01:01:08,676 --> 01:01:12,516 Speaker 3: group of songs anyways. It's just I just think it's incredible, awesome. 1196 01:01:12,676 --> 01:01:15,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, has it been satisfying seeing so many people connect 1197 01:01:16,076 --> 01:01:19,356 Speaker 2: with your music and hearing you know, over the past 1198 01:01:19,356 --> 01:01:21,596 Speaker 2: three decades people come up to you and tell you 1199 01:01:21,676 --> 01:01:23,876 Speaker 2: how much they've connected to your songs and what they 1200 01:01:23,956 --> 01:01:24,796 Speaker 2: mean to them. 1201 01:01:25,556 --> 01:01:27,596 Speaker 3: I think it's more me connecting with them. For me, 1202 01:01:27,876 --> 01:01:30,236 Speaker 3: that does happen what you're talking about, but I always 1203 01:01:30,236 --> 01:01:33,436 Speaker 3: feel really awkward. Yeah, I think it's more about like 1204 01:01:34,996 --> 01:01:38,356 Speaker 3: the feeling of me connecting with everybody, like when I'm writing, 1205 01:01:38,556 --> 01:01:42,036 Speaker 3: when I'm on stage, me connecting with the band, Like 1206 01:01:42,076 --> 01:01:45,156 Speaker 3: it's more about, yes, me connecting with them than them 1207 01:01:45,156 --> 01:01:48,876 Speaker 3: connecting with me. For me, it works both ways, though, 1208 01:01:48,916 --> 01:01:52,516 Speaker 3: you know, Like the fact that I can talk about 1209 01:01:52,516 --> 01:01:55,836 Speaker 3: myself and that does connect me to other people is 1210 01:01:55,876 --> 01:01:58,996 Speaker 3: really cool that it's something that is so personal to 1211 01:01:59,036 --> 01:02:05,156 Speaker 3: me can become personal to everybody. But that's like, but 1212 01:02:05,236 --> 01:02:08,276 Speaker 3: I'm still working from the it's personal to me perspective 1213 01:02:08,836 --> 01:02:14,396 Speaker 3: because inevitably, other people's connections to me, aren't. They're their connections, 1214 01:02:14,676 --> 01:02:16,796 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. They're in their heads and 1215 01:02:16,836 --> 01:02:19,716 Speaker 3: they're connecting with a picture of me, not actually with me. 1216 01:02:20,516 --> 01:02:23,716 Speaker 3: But it allows me to actually connect with people in 1217 01:02:23,796 --> 01:02:27,236 Speaker 3: a way that feels important. And but the wall of 1218 01:02:27,276 --> 01:02:33,996 Speaker 3: connection coming back is often more disturbing than anything else, 1219 01:02:34,196 --> 01:02:37,436 Speaker 3: kind of yeah, you know, because it's overwhelming, and it's 1220 01:02:37,476 --> 01:02:39,436 Speaker 3: also it's a lot of it takes place with a 1221 01:02:39,516 --> 01:02:42,356 Speaker 3: character inside their heads that's a version of me that 1222 01:02:42,476 --> 01:02:46,676 Speaker 3: isn't actually me. They have deep, deep connections to a 1223 01:02:46,756 --> 01:02:49,756 Speaker 3: version of me, but it's not actually me. And I 1224 01:02:49,756 --> 01:02:52,396 Speaker 3: don't know them at all, so they I don't have 1225 01:02:52,476 --> 01:02:53,956 Speaker 3: any connection to them, you know what I mean. Like 1226 01:02:53,956 --> 01:02:55,516 Speaker 3: I have not thought them, I don't know them at all, 1227 01:02:55,556 --> 01:02:58,356 Speaker 3: So like, but they have this very real, deep connection 1228 01:02:58,436 --> 01:03:01,396 Speaker 3: to me that means the world to them. Yeah, and 1229 01:03:01,516 --> 01:03:05,996 Speaker 3: it and it has provided solace and joy and a 1230 01:03:05,996 --> 01:03:09,236 Speaker 3: million other feelings throughout their life. I've been present and 1231 01:03:09,396 --> 01:03:12,796 Speaker 3: for all these parts of their life for them, but 1232 01:03:12,876 --> 01:03:15,356 Speaker 3: I wasn't actually there at all. So for me, it's like, 1233 01:03:15,396 --> 01:03:18,036 Speaker 3: I don't know what you're talking about, but I wasn't 1234 01:03:18,036 --> 01:03:20,236 Speaker 3: there for that I was over here. 1235 01:03:20,636 --> 01:03:23,276 Speaker 2: Have you had that experience with anyone who you really admire, 1236 01:03:23,276 --> 01:03:26,316 Speaker 2: any musicians who you feel extremely close to, and then 1237 01:03:26,356 --> 01:03:28,276 Speaker 2: you've met them, and it's just sort. 1238 01:03:28,036 --> 01:03:32,676 Speaker 3: Of have a lot of trouble talking to my idols. 1239 01:03:33,036 --> 01:03:36,876 Speaker 3: I have trouble forming sentences with certain of my idols, 1240 01:03:36,876 --> 01:03:38,876 Speaker 3: who are the nicest people in the world, but I 1241 01:03:38,916 --> 01:03:42,276 Speaker 3: can't always think of anything to say. Yeah, there are 1242 01:03:42,276 --> 01:03:44,396 Speaker 3: people who have been great to me my entire career, 1243 01:03:44,436 --> 01:03:47,596 Speaker 3: who I've known for decades, and they have been nothing 1244 01:03:47,636 --> 01:03:49,796 Speaker 3: but nice to me, and I cannot form sentences around them, 1245 01:03:50,116 --> 01:03:52,036 Speaker 3: and we're not friends because of that, you know, Like 1246 01:03:52,116 --> 01:03:56,436 Speaker 3: it's a weird thing. Yeah, I mean, because I'm probably 1247 01:03:56,436 --> 01:03:58,676 Speaker 3: a lot more hesitant and careful about that. I don't 1248 01:03:58,676 --> 01:04:01,556 Speaker 3: come up with the expectation of knowing them because I don't, 1249 01:04:01,836 --> 01:04:04,916 Speaker 3: and I'm alter hyper aware of that because I've been 1250 01:04:04,916 --> 01:04:07,076 Speaker 3: on both sides of it, So like, I don't, you know, 1251 01:04:07,156 --> 01:04:10,276 Speaker 3: I don't show up to Bruce Springsteen House expecting to 1252 01:04:10,316 --> 01:04:13,836 Speaker 3: be Bruce's best friend, even though Bruce is the nicest 1253 01:04:13,836 --> 01:04:17,036 Speaker 3: guy on earth. You know, he's the nicest, kindest guy, 1254 01:04:17,076 --> 01:04:19,036 Speaker 3: one of the nice people I've ever met in my life. 1255 01:04:19,676 --> 01:04:22,356 Speaker 3: And I have a deep connection to that stuff. But 1256 01:04:22,436 --> 01:04:23,876 Speaker 3: it's not real, you know what I mean. I can't 1257 01:04:23,876 --> 01:04:26,476 Speaker 3: show up to his house. Yeah shame. 1258 01:04:28,116 --> 01:04:30,036 Speaker 2: You probably could, but you won't. 1259 01:04:30,116 --> 01:04:31,316 Speaker 3: We'll try. I'll try at some point. 1260 01:04:31,516 --> 01:04:35,716 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you Adams so much, and thank you and 1261 01:04:35,956 --> 01:04:36,756 Speaker 2: have fun on tour. 1262 01:04:37,476 --> 01:04:39,076 Speaker 3: Ah, we will, thanks so much. 1263 01:04:41,756 --> 01:04:44,236 Speaker 1: You can hear the latest Counting Crow's album, Butter Miracle, 1264 01:04:44,316 --> 01:04:46,876 Speaker 1: The Complete Suits, as well as our favorite Counting Crow 1265 01:04:46,996 --> 01:04:50,316 Speaker 1: songs on a playlist LinkedIn episode description and again. To 1266 01:04:50,316 --> 01:04:52,796 Speaker 1: see the video version of this episode, visit YouTube dot 1267 01:04:52,796 --> 01:04:56,516 Speaker 1: com slash Broken Record Podcast and be sure to follow 1268 01:04:56,596 --> 01:04:59,676 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can 1269 01:04:59,716 --> 01:05:03,076 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is 1270 01:05:03,076 --> 01:05:06,156 Speaker 1: produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from 1271 01:05:06,236 --> 01:05:09,756 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tomday. 1272 01:05:10,476 --> 01:05:13,956 Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you 1273 01:05:14,036 --> 01:05:17,316 Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to 1274 01:05:17,436 --> 01:05:21,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers 1275 01:05:21,436 --> 01:05:24,516 Speaker 1: bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine 1276 01:05:24,596 --> 01:05:28,556 Speaker 1: a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, 1277 01:05:29,316 --> 01:05:31,596 Speaker 1: and if you like this show, please remember to share, 1278 01:05:31,756 --> 01:05:34,476 Speaker 1: rate and review us on your podcast app Our theme 1279 01:05:34,516 --> 01:05:36,916 Speaker 1: music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond,