1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week a monster 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: devouring the Earth. A couple of weeks ago, I was 3 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: invited to the Barbie Coansenter to see the London premiere 4 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: of a piece of music called Unearthed, exploring the climate crisis. Ah, 5 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: it's a fragmentation. It's an aratorio which chooses an orchestra, 6 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: singers and narration to tell a story. In this case 7 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: it involved the BBC Orchestra alongside a soprano, a men's 8 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: choir and a young person schoir. It was fantastic, even 9 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: though I was staring at an orchestra. Some of the 10 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: didn't seem to come from the instruments, but somewhere deep, 11 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: like a creaking forest or like the sound of a 12 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: crying whil and the music had this visceral power that 13 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: I've not seen explored in such a way to tell 14 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: a climate story. So I wanted to find out more 15 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: about the piece, the music and the name on Earth. 16 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: On Earth can mean many different things, but certainly there's 17 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 2: the actual word on Earth. You're taking in an unearthing, 18 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: so I'm bringing something up from the Earth. And then 19 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: there's one as a negative like not non Earth. Like 20 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: on Earth, this is not of the Earth. What we're doing. 21 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: That's Unearth's composer Julia Wolf a Pulitzer Prize winning musician 22 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: whose compositions have been performed around the world. Her work 23 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: mixes orchestral music, spoken word and singing to tell rich 24 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: stories of the topic she is interested in, be it 25 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: the climate crisis in Unearthed, struggles of labor in Fire 26 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: in My Mouth, or the oral histories of the Pennsylvany 27 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: in a cold region in anthracite fields. She can spend 28 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: months or even years in researching these stories and then 29 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: turning all of that into moving compositions. The BBC were 30 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: kind enough to let us use some of the clips 31 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: from the Barbeican performance in this episode, and if you'd 32 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: like to listen to the full performance of Julia Wolf's Unearth. 33 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: It will be broadcast on BBC Radio Three on Thursday, 34 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: twelfth February at seven thirty pm UK time, and will 35 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: be available on BBC Sounds at least for those here 36 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: in the UK for the next month. This is the 37 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: third episode in Zero's Imagine series, where we talk to authors, 38 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: musicians and artists about how they can help us understand 39 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: the climate crisis through art. Please send us your feedback 40 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: to zero Pod at Bloomberg dot net. Here's my interview 41 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: with Julia Wolf. Julia, Welcome to zero. 42 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 43 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: So Unearthed premiered in twenty twenty three in New and 44 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: it performed here in the Barbican in London in late January. 45 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: What was the inception of the piece? 46 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: Well, I've done a number of pieces on subjects. For 47 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: the most part, they've been historical subjects, labor history at 48 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: the turn of the century, in the garment industry in 49 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: New York, coal mining, so a lot of different covering 50 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: a lot of different issues about humanity, I guess, and 51 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: with on Earth it's really the first piece. It's not historic. 52 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: I wish it was historic. I wish we were past 53 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: issues of climate change, but we're not. So it's very 54 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: much now, very much about the present and just somehow 55 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: trying to express you could say, concern or the kind 56 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: of passion for paying attention to these issues through music. 57 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: And throughout the piece there's a lot of nature in it. 58 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: Of course, nature shows up in musical composition of all 59 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: sorts ever since this haven't been music. But with climate 60 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: there is a clash between nature and humans when you 61 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: think about it musically, did you have to think differently, 62 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: think of a different creative approach to showcasing what is 63 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: a beautiful thing clashing with I would say humans are 64 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: beautiful too, but at some point. 65 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: There sometimes they're beautiful, sometimes not. But yeah, that's a 66 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 3: good question. 67 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 2: I definitely thought a lot about human relationship to nature, 68 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: and it goes back to very early I mean the 69 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: opening the three Movements, and the first movement is called flood. 70 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: And of course the flood story is an ancient story 71 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: for many cultures, but I took some biblical lines and 72 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: as a kind of metaphor was certainly flooding is one 73 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: of the major issues that have come up in relationship 74 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,559 Speaker 2: to climate change. So we start with a very early 75 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 2: human response to nature, which is the flood. You know, 76 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: a lot of these ideas do evoke musical worlds, So 77 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: example and flood, you really hear it kind of surging 78 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 2: in a way. I've never written before, these kind of 79 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: waves of sound, and that's just kind of a response 80 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: to what is that experience of a flood. I've never 81 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: been in a flood, I certainly read about them, but 82 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: so you get things like that, and then in the 83 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 2: second movement, which is called Forest, that came from reading 84 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: a lot about the incredible interconnectedness and ecosystem of a forest. 85 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: It's quite beautiful and quite remarkable the way that trees 86 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: communicate with each other literally like underground sending signals. And 87 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: so that's the Happy Movement, I'd say, just kind of 88 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 2: a celebration of what that is. And it's so much 89 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: fun being very literal, Like there are things that these 90 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: strings are doing, the orchestral strings that sound like that 91 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: creaking sound when you walk through a forest. I'm not 92 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 2: even sure what is going on with the trees when 93 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: they do that, but it's kind of like a you know, 94 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: it's very subtle you walk through it. I don't think 95 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: they're cracking, but somehow when they're swaying, this creek happens 96 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: and it sounds pretty pretty close, you know, with the 97 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: violins and the cellas, and so there's some literal things, 98 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: and then there are more magical. 99 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 3: Things that almost seem. 100 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 2: Like like little fairy elf sounds with harmonics, and so 101 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: it's some of those, some of the are very literal references. 102 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: And finally when we get to the third movement, which 103 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: is the last movement, it's a little more directly drawing 104 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: from the language and the term terminology of climate change, 105 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: just having fun with these words like restoration, animal migration, 106 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: a lot of ass in that, but so kind of 107 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: rhythm of these terms so very very dark and scary 108 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: and and some of the solutions work sort of more 109 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: positive words there. But so there's there's other languages as well, 110 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: but that's a little less nature oriented that one. It's 111 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: a little bit more protests in a way. 112 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: Well, I want to come to the three different parts 113 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: of Sorry and jump and walk through some of the 114 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: musical bits as well. But so maybe we can start 115 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: with the aim of bringing flood at the start. I mean, 116 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: there are ways in which floods are a contemporary problem, 117 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: but there's also the creation story, the ancient flood story, 118 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: and in the biblical sense, these are things that happen 119 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: to people and you can't do very much about it 120 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: because the force of nature is such. But with climate 121 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: there is agency that we have. So you know, why 122 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: start at a moment of essentially stripping a listener off 123 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: a feeling of agency? 124 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's true. 125 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: It's one of the most out of control dangers, I guess, 126 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: or phenomenons that happen in nature, and I'm always interested 127 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: in and I guess in that essence, it's a historical piece, 128 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: but in kind of reflecting backward and forward. So the 129 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: flood is gosh, everywhere everywhere in the world. It's not 130 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: particularly to a country. It's so ancient that so many 131 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: cultures have told this story or some variation of a 132 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: story of the entire world being flooded. It's a very 133 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: very powerful natural phenomenon. And so of looking back to 134 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: our history as human being and thinking about origins, that 135 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: seem like a natural place to start. 136 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, you're right. I mean floods are everywhere. Just 137 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, this past weeks we've had a flood in 138 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: New Zealand because of landslide, killed a few people. There's 139 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: a massive flood in Indonesia which has resulted in huge 140 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: policy changes. Like this is having not just impact on 141 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: the ground cause it suffering, but longer term impact in 142 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: governments making decisions about this. You know, throughout your other works, 143 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: now that I've had a chance to listen to, you've 144 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: blended politics and music together. You did that in the 145 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: labor stories. You know, in anthwer site fields, you're talking 146 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: about gold mining in Pennsylvania with fine and mouth, you're 147 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: talking about the garment workers in New York City dying 148 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: as a result of the fire and just working conditions. 149 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: And then in steel Hammer you have a worker going 150 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: against automation, a theme as old as there have been 151 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: machines around, and particularly interesting now with artificial intelligence. But 152 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: what is it that you hope Honarth achieves now at 153 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: this time? You know, when you, as a US citizen, 154 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: are in a country where the government is essentially abandoning 155 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: any climate responsibility, even though it is the country that 156 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: has contributed the most to the climate problem. 157 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 3: That is so terrible. 158 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: I have to say, you know, it's painful for many 159 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 2: of us the idea that there isn't an absolutely clear 160 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: recognition of what's going on with nature. 161 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 3: It's so clear. 162 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there's always been fluctuations in temperatures, 163 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: and you know there have been floods and fires in 164 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: the past, but we're at a point now it's very 165 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 2: clearly tied to the warming of the planet. So many 166 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 2: people are working on this and actually I probably I 167 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: have to give credit to my friends who work in 168 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 2: that area and advocacy. I'm sure this piece partly from 169 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 2: all the conversations with them. You know, friends who encourage 170 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: alternative transportation and one friend who's involved in investing in 171 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: alternative energies. So it's in my consciousness for flugs, I 172 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: can remember. But it's a lot of hard work. And 173 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: it's also so hard when it's an upward battle when 174 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: you don't have that recognition from the top, so everyone 175 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: coming up from the bottom has to work even harder 176 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: and and you know, connect to all the other people 177 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: who are very very consciousness. I think certainly other countries 178 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: are much more aware and are recognizing that everyone has 179 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: to make the difference. It's not it's an infrastructure issue. 180 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 2: It's sure individual carbon footprint is important, but I think 181 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 2: it's really how you can't make change without the infrastructure 182 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: of the changes. 183 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: And you perform this piece for the first time in 184 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, so this was an era where an 185 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: American president was actually attempting to do something serious about 186 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: climate change. And now it's playing in twenty twenty six again, 187 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: when there has been a complete reversal on that stance. 188 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: Has the meaning of your own piece changed as a result? 189 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: Of the politics. 190 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: Well, that's a really fascinating thing that how everything changes, 191 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: and all these pieces they feel so different in different eras, 192 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: you know, certain lines that are sung. Even another piece 193 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: called Her Story, which is about women inequality, and there's 194 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: a line Abigail Adams had written to her husband John 195 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: Adams saying, do not put unlimited power into the hands 196 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: of husbands. All men would be tyrants if they could. Well, okay, 197 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 2: she wrote that in seventeen seventy six, a very interesting 198 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: line for that time period. But it has a very 199 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 2: different residence today, you know, So that's a different piece. 200 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: But so in this piece, the issues are just as 201 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: present now as they were before, and hopefully they won't 202 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: continue to be so, you know, hopefully we'll solve some 203 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: of these issues. But it always is always a very 204 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: for me, a very interesting reflection of of the past 205 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 2: and the present and also in a way interfacing with 206 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: the future as well. Like that your response changes according 207 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: to what's going on in the world at that moment, 208 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: and that's kind of beautiful because it's a very a 209 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 2: live relationship to the music. It should change, you know, 210 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: it's not stuck in time. 211 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: Now, let's listen to another clip and we can talk 212 00:13:29,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: a little more about the second movement. So this is 213 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: the start of the second movement. You have the choir 214 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: singing the word tree in different languages, the paid which 215 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: is my mother tongue, Hindi was pronounced right, and I 216 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: was like, I see it. I'm sure everything else is perfect, 217 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: And it's sort of trying to represent the point of 218 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: the ecosystem here. And it's then followed by excerpts from 219 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: Emily Dickinson's poem who Robbed the Words? Then I'll just 220 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: read out the words, so the listener has them who 221 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: robbed the words? The trusting words? The unsuspecting trees brought 222 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: out their burrs and mosses his fantasy to please, He 223 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: scanned their trinkets. Curious, he grasped, He bore away. What 224 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: will the solemn hemlock? What will the fir tree say? 225 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: Why have that particular poem? 226 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was kind of It's kind of sometimes you 227 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: have these magical moments where it's come across something. And 228 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: with all these pieces, I'm developing texts in a very 229 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: free way. You could say I'm the librettis or I 230 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 2: write the text, but actually I'm really like a hunter gatherer, 231 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: and as I'm reading, I come across things and I 232 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: think the idea of tree, the word tree in different 233 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: languages just struck me as a way to emphasize the 234 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: global nature of this issue, that it's not in one place, 235 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: and it's you know, wealthy nations, poor nations, you know, everyone, 236 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: especially particularly poor nations, actually would are feeling this. And 237 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: then somehow I can't. I came across the Emily Dickinson pome. 238 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of for problems in general, but 239 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: I hadn't known this one. It's kind of a hidden one, 240 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 2: it's not so known, and just amazing. This also very 241 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: early recognition of development. You know, this is a metaphor 242 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: of sense because it's like a bird coming and taking 243 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: from taking from nature, but the bird's part of nature 244 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: as well. But it's a metaphor for cutting down forest, 245 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: I mean, kind of moving in and developing land, a 246 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: specially leaving nature. And it's just arrived magically on my 247 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: doorstep in away, and so it seemed like a really 248 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: nice way to thread in this question what the heck 249 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: are we doing? And that's sung by the soprano solos, 250 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: so there's a men's choir which is a very warm, 251 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: low sound, and then she's kind of this singular sailing voice, 252 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: and so she gets to sing the Emily Dickinson. 253 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Julia Wolf whether artists have 254 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: a duty to be political. If you want to get 255 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: in touch with Zero, with guest suggestions, feedback, or anything 256 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: at all, right to the show at zero port at 257 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. And while you're at it, write us 258 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. It helps 259 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: new listeners find the show. I had a question, which is, 260 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: you know, from a musical standpoint, you could do a 261 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: lot of this just with music, but throughout your works 262 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: you've chosen to have words and use the words in 263 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: musical ways to get something across. Why the words at all? 264 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: Okay? 265 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: Another good question, because I should say that I got 266 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: into music because it felt like it was beyond words 267 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: and I couldn't explain it, and because I actually had 268 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: no intention of studying music. When I went to university, 269 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: accidentally walked into a music class and it was so 270 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 2: fascinating to me that you could build something out of music. 271 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: That was just like you can build something out of music. 272 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 2: That seemed amazing to me, and I love that you 273 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: can't explain it. I mean, we try to explain that, 274 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 2: we've you know, musicologists and historians, but really we don't 275 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: know why it affects us in this magical way. 276 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 3: And so I love that. 277 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 2: And it took me a long time to then re 278 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: embrace words because I did a lot of creative before 279 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: I got into music. I did a lot of creative writing, 280 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: and a lot of my work has been early work 281 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 2: was in theater. So I thought, Okay, put that all aside, 282 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: just focus on how do you build a language with music? 283 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: How do you focus on the kind of colors that 284 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: you want and the textures. But it crept back in, 285 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: you know, just this way of telling stories and addressing issues. 286 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 2: There's something very powerful about singing attacks. I mean, you 287 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: can watch a documentary, you can reet a book, there's 288 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: so many incredible documentations of this particular issue, climate change. 289 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: I read amazing books in the process, but when you 290 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 2: sing it, it's something else happens. There's some kind of 291 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: emotional response to the subject, and that's been really incredible 292 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: to take a dive into that, to bring the words 293 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: back in. 294 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's my job most of the time. 295 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: I am playing with words. There is a challenge with words, 296 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: which is that they are sometimes too concrete. And as 297 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: we go into the third movement, and maybe we can 298 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: listen to a clip that concreteness becomes emotionally, it put 299 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: me in uncomfortable places. It's not what I wanted to 300 00:19:17,320 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: listen to. H So you can hear the soprano there, 301 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: and of course you can hear the first bits of 302 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: the words there, which are habitat, fragmentation, disintegration, devastation, which 303 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: are sung by adults. And then later on you have 304 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: a children's squore, young people's chore, come in and talk 305 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: about the solutions the words of hope, conservation, reforestation, simplification. 306 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: Why the choices that you made in that movement in 307 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: that way? Is it, you know, just trying to be 308 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: on the nose saying this is a problem the adults 309 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: created and it's the young people who are going to 310 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: solve it. This is what I want people to take away. 311 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 3: That's definitely part of it. 312 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 2: And you know, I've definitely paused before using that language 313 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: is very different. I can't think of any other piece 314 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: have done that has quite that kind of language. 315 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 3: Although I do like everyday language. 316 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: You know, like I'm not necessarily writing with super poetic language. 317 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: And there's the Onmily Dickinson, this piece that's unusual for me. 318 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 2: Sometimes you know, still of names or list of this 319 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: or list of that, or it's from a speech or 320 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: something like that. 321 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: So but there's something. 322 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 2: It was almost like shocking to me to try to 323 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 2: work with these very concrete terms, but it kept coming 324 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 2: back to me. And you know, one of the books, 325 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: or two of the books I read, were by this writer, 326 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Colbert, and she's writing well, she's a journalist at 327 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 2: the New Yorker and writing mostly about climate change. 328 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: She's a big. 329 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 3: Gloom and doom. I mean it's very dark, but actually 330 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 3: a more. 331 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: Recent book, Under a White Sky is focusing on solutions. 332 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 2: So reading the earlier book with the sixth Extinction and 333 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 2: then the more recent book in my head was filled 334 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: with these ideas about animal migration, you know, animals having 335 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: to move to cooler moving north, I say, like move 336 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: into cooler climates and this all these changes that are 337 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: incredibly concerning, and they all have a kind of rhythm 338 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: because they're all like Asian like deforestation restoration, whether the 339 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 2: positive ones or the negative ones. It was fun to 340 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 2: embrace that, you know, I always try to kind of 341 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 2: go to some kind of new territory, and that kind 342 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: of language was new for me and interesting to have 343 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 2: the kids saying it's funny. It's really kind of clarified 344 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 2: how we do move from the adults who caused the 345 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: problem to. 346 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 3: The kids who we have. You have to look them 347 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: in the face. 348 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: They're inheriting it, you know, so their role is very important, 349 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 2: the voices of the children's schore. 350 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: In the process, you have a number of performers alongside 351 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: the musicians, the people playing the instruments, but you have 352 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: the singers, you have the Young People's Choir. What were 353 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: conversations with the performers as they were going through learning 354 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: this piece and being part of it and being physically 355 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: performing it. Which I'm not a musician, but I feel 356 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: like that process does something that's much more different than 357 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: I sitting in the audience listening to it, you know, passively. 358 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: Well, in a way, all of us in the audience 359 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: are are not so different from the players. I mean, 360 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: they're they're inside it, and they're concentrating and incredible in 361 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: their instruments, but there's something similar about it. The experience 362 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 2: in the sense that I try to convey a lot 363 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: of these ideas to the performers as well, Like I'm 364 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: always thinking extra musically, it's not just notes and rhythms. 365 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 2: There's something else going on. But one interesting relationship and 366 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: the piece is that some of the text was drawn 367 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 2: from the young people who first sang it. So when 368 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: I was building the piece, the director and I Annie Kaufman, 369 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 2: stage director, we went to the young people's course in 370 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: New York City and we gave them a series of questions, 371 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: and we had their conductor, their leader posed these questions 372 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: to them, and some of the text was just so 373 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: amazing that came out from these interviews that it's in 374 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 2: the piece. And the piece starts with a line that 375 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: one of the kids said, which was like a monster 376 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 2: devouring the earth, tell everyone they may not listen, you know, 377 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: And I just okay, that's that's what we're starting with that, 378 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: you know. And then the last line of the piece, 379 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 2: hope requires action, also very literal. It's like shockingly literal 380 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: to me. But well, as we're randing, you know, we 381 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: want to have hope, you have to have action. We 382 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: want to have action. You have to have hope. You know, 383 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: but that came from you know, like a ten year old, 384 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: So that's really special to me that that they contributed 385 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: their voices a part of it. There's some text in 386 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 2: the middle also from the kids. But but it was 387 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 2: a fruitful gathering when you know, asking those questions getting 388 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: pretty amazing answers. 389 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: Music has also been used as a political tool, and 390 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, I just listened to this recent long podcast 391 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: series that was done about a Nigerian artist named Phila Kuti, 392 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: and he essentially created a political movement out of the 393 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: music to try and deal with the oppressive Nigerian government 394 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: and you know, even looking to run for president of 395 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: Nigeria at one point. So there there is power to 396 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: music that can be taken to quite a quite an 397 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: extreme political power as well. With the end of the 398 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: piece where you go hope requires action, you are making 399 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: a call to action. But what is it that you 400 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: hope music can create for this climate movement? 401 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: You know, I first all, I think that's a great 402 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 2: example of the artists, because I think artists have always 403 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: been a kind of mirror. 404 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 3: You know. 405 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 2: I'm part of our I would say job, but part 406 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: of our inspiration is to reflect on who we are 407 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: and that could be very concrete or a little bit 408 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: more abstracted, but it's somehow it's like who are we 409 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: in this time period, in this location. Yeah, I mean 410 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 2: that for me, that's been a really essential question, whether 411 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: whether the words or no words, it is some kind 412 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 2: of expression of that. And certainly there are places where 413 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: you can't make art, you know, you literally cannot make art, 414 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: and there's certainly throughout history there are places where you 415 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: can have to make a certain kind of art or 416 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: you know, it has to be art that serves the 417 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: government or all kinds of craziness that have gone on 418 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 2: with the relationship. 419 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 3: Between art and politics. 420 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: You can tell my politics within the piece, but I 421 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: don't I necessarily mean to be didactic. And so what 422 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 2: I like to do or the way I like to 423 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 2: work is I take a look at things and I 424 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 2: go and then I kind of hold them up and 425 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: I go, well can you believe that? Like look at that? 426 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 2: Look what's going on? Or look what went on? And 427 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: who were we then? And who are we now? And 428 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 2: who it's kind of question asking in a way, and 429 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: I think these questions are really important. Sometimes we can, 430 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 2: you know, be in our little sleep world and so 431 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: there's a certain kind of call to paying attention. But 432 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: it's not black and white like here's what you need 433 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 2: to do and here's who's wrong and here's who's. 434 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 3: Right, because it's very complicated. 435 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: I really think with a lot of these pieces, what 436 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: I'm saying is we're all a part of this. We're 437 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 2: all a part of it, whether it's how we vote 438 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: or whether it's how we tried to be conscious. We 439 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: all have to be in this conversation. So if there's 440 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 2: anything political for me personally, is probably an like, hey, 441 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 2: let's look at ourselves. 442 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 3: Let's let's look at what's happening. And as opposed to 443 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 3: good guy, bad guy, you know. 444 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: There are some bad guys and there are some good guys, 445 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 2: but it's more interesting. 446 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 3: To think about I think a bigger picture for me. 447 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of debate in the public realm 448 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 1: about whether or not artists even should be getting themselves 449 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: involved in politics. Some Hollywood actors have created controversy by 450 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: standing up and saying things that are political. Others have 451 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: gone silent as a result. Do you feel artists have 452 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: a duty to be political and not shy away from controversy. 453 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: I don't think there's there's one way to make a 454 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: First of all, art affects us and hopefully like lifts 455 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: us up and makes us think deeply about things. But 456 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 2: it's not going to make change by itself, I don't, 457 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, it's really great to address these 458 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: issues and for me as meaningful, but I am not 459 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: going to change the laws, or the or the mentality 460 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 2: necessarily just with one piece of music. So I think 461 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: the act of making artists political just in itself, you know, 462 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: just to say we are human beings and we have 463 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: this form of expression, and we're not just about like 464 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: nuts and bolts. I mean, why is art even here? 465 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: I don't know, chief questions, But it's to lift us 466 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: up or to ask ourselves questions and and kind of 467 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 2: have a hopefully some kind of celestial experience that's political 468 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: itself too. It's not just about money or property or 469 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: you know, it's sort of about something else, something kind 470 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: of ethereal or femeral almost. I think that throughout history 471 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 2: artists have been concerned citizens, and they have addressed issues 472 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: and so many pieces, and I think that it's very genuine, 473 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: you know, But I don't think it's the job to 474 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: kind of it gets too simplified, I think when you 475 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 2: just like I said, it's not so black and white 476 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: all the time. History is very complex and many, many, 477 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: many histories. I think art contributes to that, but it's 478 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: not a solution or even a job of the artist. 479 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 3: Too, you know. 480 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: I think there's also a weariness on my part because 481 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: a lot of times it's used in the opposite way, 482 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: like you must make art to serve the state. I 483 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: mean so many examples of that, and art is kind 484 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: of working underground and have secret messages and their pieces 485 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: like no, I don't feel the way the state feels. 486 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: You know. 487 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 3: So it's a complex relationship. 488 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: But I think that having the freedom of expression is 489 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: sort of essential and hopefully it lifts us up. 490 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: One question on climate as a story telling instrument, because 491 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: in the music you're telling a story too. It is, 492 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: in one place, a huge expansive subject that should allow 493 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,959 Speaker 1: you to be able to tell many stories in many contexts. 494 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: In another way, it's urgent and we kind of know 495 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: what we need to do and we just need to 496 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: get on with the task of doing it. And there 497 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: is a tendency to try and tell stories that are 498 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: preachy or pedantic or didactic when you were trying to 499 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: compose this, how did you deal with that challenge and 500 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: opportunity that climate presence. 501 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's in a way maybe for all 502 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: these pieces, it's sort of following my journey or my discovery. 503 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 2: So I can't point directly to how all the books 504 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: I read are in this piece, but it pretty much 505 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: it follows the thread of me discovering and not discovering 506 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 2: because I thought about it for quite a number years, 507 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: but also thinking more deeply about these issues. There's one 508 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: great book by Nash Roderick Nash, Wilderness in the American Mind. 509 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: It talks about our relationships nature and how's changed every time, 510 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: you know, like you're looking at pioneers are going. 511 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: At con greed nature. 512 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: There's been all kinds of different attitudes until we finally 513 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: get to the moment of preservation. This idea I think 514 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: came with Teddy Roosevelt in terms of like government perspective. 515 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's actually. 516 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 2: Something to preserve the Grand Canyon, you know, whatever it is, 517 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: that nature needs to be cared for and respect it, 518 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: and also that we're a part of nature. We often 519 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: think of ourselves as a part. One word that where 520 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: as if we're somehow not connection, but we are natural 521 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: phenomenon as well. So how does that relationship work and 522 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 2: how do we we care for that relationship? 523 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 3: Thank you, Julia, thank you, thank you for having me, and. 524 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to zero. Now for the sound 525 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: of the week. That is the sound of trees creaking 526 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: in the wind, one of many sounds that inspired Julia. 527 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode and would like to listen 528 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: to the full performance of Julia Wolfe's Unearthed Eduli broadcast 529 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: on BBC Radio three on Thursday, twelfth February at seven 530 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: thirty pm UK time, and it will be available for 531 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: at least those in the UK on BBC Sounds for 532 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: the next month. This episode was produced by Oscar boyd A. 533 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: The music is composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to Anne McKay, 534 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: Joe Hawkins, Olivia Rudgard, Samersadi, Laura Milan and Sharan chen 535 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: I am Akshatrati. Back soon.