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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It's a rare

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Speaker 1: public riff between the Republican and Democratic leaders of the

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Speaker 1: Senate Intelligence Committee over their investigation into Russia and the

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign. Yesterday, Republican chairman Richard Burr said the committee

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Speaker 1: had found no evidence of collusion, but Senator Mark Warner,

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Speaker 1: the top Democrat on the committee, disagreed, saying the investigation

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Speaker 1: is still ongoing and the committee still had to interview

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Speaker 1: some key witnesses. Joining me as William Banks, professor at

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Speaker 1: Syracuse University Law School, Bill, how do you read Burr's comments? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think that Burro was was caught by the interviewer

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Speaker 1: to answer a specific question of about the state of

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Speaker 1: play at that particular date, and he gave an accurate answer.

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Speaker 1: They had no conclusive evidence of of conspiracy or collusion

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Speaker 1: at that time, but you know, his his colleagues, Senator

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Speaker 1: Warner is absolutely correct that there's more to do. Several

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Speaker 1: witnesses have yet to return to the committee, UH, in

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Speaker 1: part because they're still undergoing proceedings related to Mueller's investigation.

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Speaker 1: So the answer is is one that we shouldn't or

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Speaker 1: the riff. I think we shouldn't take it too seriously

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Speaker 1: because the committee will be back together and indeed, for

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Speaker 1: nearly two years now, UH, those two have managed bipartisan investigation.

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Speaker 1: I expect they'll continue. There's also a question of what

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Speaker 1: is meant by evidence and direct evidence, which seems that

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Speaker 1: both Democrats and Republicans are saying there is no direct evidence.

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Speaker 1: Are they referring to a smoking gun? Because juries sometimes

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Speaker 1: have to draw conclusions based on indirect evidence and circumstantial evidence. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's true. So you know, the when when they're done,

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Speaker 1: when the rest of the witnesses returned and they lay

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Speaker 1: it all out and h there'll be a chance for

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Speaker 1: us to derive circumstantial evidence. I think, you know, among

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Speaker 1: we've got Michael Cohen yet coming back. There's Paul Manifort,

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Speaker 1: and now there's a lot of attention being focused on

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Speaker 1: an inadvertent leak last week of of some statements made

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Speaker 1: in in a hearing related to Manifort. That there's a

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Speaker 1: special interest in the in a meeting between Maniford and

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Speaker 1: a Russian named Kilimnick that focused on both interest in

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Speaker 1: solving a problem in the Ukraine to Russia satisfaction, and

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Speaker 1: on and on Trump polling data that was passed between

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Speaker 1: Manifort or Rick Gates to this Russian operative who had

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Speaker 1: ties to the intelligence agencies there. As far as the

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Speaker 1: Mueller Report goes, I just want to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about William Barr, who is going to be the

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Speaker 1: next Attorney General, and his statements that he would like

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Speaker 1: to give as much information as possible in that report

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Speaker 1: to the public, but there may be things that have

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Speaker 1: to be concealed due to security concerns. What do you

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Speaker 1: where do you think he stands right now as far

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Speaker 1: as revealing the Muller Report, It is hard to tell.

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Speaker 1: And he was he was a little bit coy, I

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Speaker 1: think in the hearings and in committing to a specific position.

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Speaker 1: But we have to understand that we don't yet know.

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Speaker 1: None of us knows what form the Mueller Report is

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Speaker 1: going to take. This is This is not like Watergate.

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Speaker 1: This is not like ken Starr and and President Clinton,

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Speaker 1: where they had a specific charge about reporting based on

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Speaker 1: a statute the Ethics and Government Act that, as we know,

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Speaker 1: the whole Mueller investigation has been conducted pursu into Justice

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Speaker 1: Department regulations, not pursuing to a law enacted by Congress,

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Speaker 1: and those regulations don't specify a full report to Congress,

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Speaker 1: so we could be looking at any number of different

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Speaker 1: formats for report length, content, degree of UH specificity. So

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Speaker 1: it's probably not fair for us to prejudge what Bar

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Speaker 1: might do when none of us, including Bar, knows what

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Speaker 1: the report's going to look like. There is a court

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Speaker 1: decision during the Watergate era that allowed the House to

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Speaker 1: review the evidence that Watergate prosecutors had assembled against former

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Speaker 1: President Richard Nixon, and that states that Congress has the

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Speaker 1: right to obtain all evidence. So will that give the

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Speaker 1: congressional investigators? And in I think it does, I mean

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Speaker 1: that those are important principles. I think Congress, of course

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Speaker 1: has constitutional responsibility to conduct investigations within its purview, and

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Speaker 1: certainly following the laws of the United States is within

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Speaker 1: its purview of investigation. So I think courts would tend

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Speaker 1: to be very supportive of efforts. But Congress to obtain

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Speaker 1: the information first, we need a dispute, though so far

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Speaker 1: there's no dispute, and I think it's likely that the

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Speaker 1: information is going to come to Congress one way or

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Speaker 1: the other. Uh. You and I've talked several times about

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Speaker 1: the position of President Trump here had given the politics

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Speaker 1: even though there's a democratic how since we still have

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Speaker 1: a strongly Republican Senate, the prospects of impeachment are are

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Speaker 1: still very much in the in the distance and highly unlikely.

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Speaker 1: And unless that circumstance changes dramatically, I think then there'd

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Speaker 1: be little pressure on bar or on Mueller not to

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Speaker 1: have the materials that he has, whatever format takes widely

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Speaker 1: disseminated in Congress, would appropriate redactions and such. Something that's

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Speaker 1: been suggested talked about if the Mulla report is not

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Speaker 1: released in full, is calling Mueller to testify before one

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Speaker 1: of the House committees. How would that work? Would it work?

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Speaker 1: It could work again, so long as as he's not

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Speaker 1: revealing secret grand jury information or you know, compromising intelligence

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Speaker 1: sources or methods. He could freely testify because there's nothing

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Speaker 1: in the Justice Department regulations that would hit him prohibit

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Speaker 1: him from doing so. That would be very interesting, and

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Speaker 1: that would grab ratings as as we thought Michael Cohen's

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Speaker 1: would until he backed out of it. Now, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about some I would call extraordinary area or

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Speaker 1: even bizarre comments that Trump's former lawyer, John Dowd made.

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Speaker 1: One of the things he said was that he was

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Speaker 1: afraid that the President couldn't handle an interview with Mueller,

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Speaker 1: because he would if he didn't know the answer, he

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Speaker 1: would just say anything. Is that strange for a lawyer

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Speaker 1: to talk about a former client that way. It's very strange.

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Speaker 1: Mr Dowd didn't do himself any credit or service by

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Speaker 1: making those comments. I'm certainly certain that current council is

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Speaker 1: very disturbed about Doubt's behavior. He may be right, of course,

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Speaker 1: but that's not something that the Council wants to say

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Speaker 1: about a client in such a high profile matter as this.

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Speaker 1: It's it's certainly this whole case has been unusual from

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Speaker 1: start to finish, the things that lawyers have done, and

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Speaker 1: including Michael Cohen. Do you believe that Michael Cohen at

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Speaker 1: this point will be testifying at one of these committees

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Speaker 1: before he goes to prison, because he keeps on putting

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Speaker 1: it off. I think he will. I think he has

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Speaker 1: been putting it off. But I think he can't put

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Speaker 1: it off forever, and I think it's going to behoove

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Speaker 1: him to come forward. And you know, I think he

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Speaker 1: probably at the end of the day will be at

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Speaker 1: least in the House, if not in the Senate. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I noticed that what we started out talking about was

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Speaker 1: that the Senator Burr and he mentioned he was a

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Speaker 1: little bit aggravated. You could say that Cohen had put

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Speaker 1: it off, but they could always call him from prison

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Speaker 1: and get him to come in. But I suspect that

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Speaker 1: they don't really want to do that. But it is

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Speaker 1: a possibility. Yeah, it is a possibility. Right, He's not

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Speaker 1: going anywhere where he can't be reached, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: All Right. Well, thanks so much Phil. As always, that's

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Speaker 1: William Banks. He's a professor at Syracuse University of Law School.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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Speaker 1: subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg m