1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: Dr Evramex Kendy is one of the country's leading anti 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: racist scholars, and in fact, everything that Dr Kendy does 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: as a professor, an author, a researcher, a podcast host, 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: a human is in an effort to reframe how we 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: think about racism and how we fight it, and he's 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: very prolific. In addition to his academic career, he just 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: co edited a new book called four Hundred Souls. He's 9 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: starting a new journalistic endeavor, an online publication centered on 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: racial justice called The Emancipator, and he's creating a podcast 11 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: based on his two thousand nineteen bestselling book, How to 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Be An Anti Racist. He is also a Stage four 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: calling cancer survivor. I think it gives me a level 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: of urgency. I think that's why some people are like, 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: why are you doing all these different things? You know, 16 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: why don't you wait to do this or that? And 17 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, wait for when? Even and I talk about 18 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: that life changing diagnosis a little later in the show. 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't start our conversation though, without acknowledging that it's 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: been a year since George Floyd's murder in Minneapolis, a 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: year since, a nearly ten minute video of his death 22 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: reverberated across the country, prompting all of us to look 23 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: at ourselves, really look at ourselves collectively and individually. I 24 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: asked Abraham if he would share his reflections on this 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: somber anniversary. So I I wanted the nation to be 26 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: at a different place at the one year anniversary of 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: George Floyd's death. You know, certainly it is good that, um, 28 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: the person who murdered him is being held accountable. Certainly, 29 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: it is good that there is a larger number of 30 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: Americans and indeed people around the world, who are aware 31 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: of the existence of systemic racism, who are aware that 32 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: there's that there's fundamental problems in American policing. But I 33 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: was hoping that we would have begun to make some 34 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: pretty drastic changes to actually ah to actually sort of 35 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: solve these these systemic problems. And we're we're still in 36 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: a moment in which we're arguing over whether even racism exists, um, 37 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: And even though we live in a nation of racial 38 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: inequities and you know that are all around us. So 39 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: I am I have mixed feelings, you know, I'm elated 40 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: that there's this awareness, and certainly more awareness than than 41 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: this time last year. But at the same time, I 42 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: am frustrated that there hasn't been more action. If you 43 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: had a magic wand Abram and you could have said, 44 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: these are the changes that we needed to see. These 45 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: are the changes that make me feel hopeful about the 46 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: future and the present, what would those have been. Part 47 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: of this is about policy, and part of is it 48 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: about framing. So as a result of the COVID nineteen pandemic, 49 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: and even as a result of the economic pandemic within 50 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: the pandemic, the number of Americans who've lost jobs, who've 51 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: lost businesses, who have fallen into poverty, if we as 52 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: a nation, uh would have not only provided relief as 53 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: as we have to a certain extent to two people, 54 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: but we would have also said that this relief isn't 55 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: just relief to get people back on their feet, to 56 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: get businesses going again. This is also a crime fighting measure. 57 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: In other words, the communities, the neighborhoods in our nation 58 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: with the highest levels of poverty and unemployment are also 59 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: typically the neighborhoods with the highest levels of violent crying, 60 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: and we consider the people in those neighborhoods, namely black people, 61 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: to be dangerous, when indeed poverty is dangerous, when indeed 62 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: unemployment is dangerous, When indeed housing insecurity and food insecurity 63 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: is dangerous, and you know, indeed sexual sort of violence 64 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: and patriarchy that it stems from is is dangerous. And 65 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: so what can we do as a nation to completely 66 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: transform the conditions? And that would have been the start, 67 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: right and and and we would be working on how 68 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: do we eliminate again housing insecurity, how do we eliminate 69 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: the fact that so many Americans don't have access to 70 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: to to quality healthcare um and and we would have 71 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: again seen those as not only efforts to help people, 72 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: but even efforts to to eliminate violent crime or reduce it. 73 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: And I'm saying that because part of what happened to 74 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: George Floyd is partially what happens to to to black 75 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: people or even black men across this country. We're seeing 76 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: as dangerous, We're seeing as the problem. And the solvent is, 77 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, more weapons or more armed people in our 78 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: communities as opposed to weaponizing against the social conditions you know, 79 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: in those communities. And so that's what I would have 80 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: wanted us to be thinking that big um and and 81 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: and broadly, do you think that they're our hopeful policy 82 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: discussions going on right now, Abram about police brutality, about 83 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: some of the disparities that were laid bare, not only 84 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: as a result of what happened to George Floyd, but 85 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: so many police killings involving black people, not just black men. 86 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: Are you seeing the seeds of some policy conversations that 87 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: you would like to see pushed faster? Further? So? In 88 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: ethical New York, a very enterprising and courageous young mayor 89 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: just decided that he was going to completely reimagine public 90 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: safety in that city, and that he was going to 91 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: essentially let go of the entire police force and completely 92 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: reorganize it to the point in which some obviously officers hired, 93 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: but others would be rehired to specifically focus, let's say, 94 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: on on on on mental health services or social services, 95 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: um and and and So, I think in part of 96 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: the reason for that is because upwards at fift of 97 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: people who are killed by police in this country have 98 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: a have a mental illness or have a mental disability. Uh. 99 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: There's also efforts in places like I believe San Francisco. 100 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: And I think it's Berkeley, in which the police are 101 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: no longer a large allowed to stop people for traffic stops. 102 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: Why because there's so many people who die unarmed uh 103 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: during traffic stops, as Dante Wright did in Minnesota. Um 104 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: and and then there are certainly efforts to think more 105 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: deeply about funding uh and and and I think, you know, Katy, 106 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: this is the fundamental question, why are people committing crimes? 107 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: Are people committing crimes out of despair and poverty and unemployment, 108 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: or people committing crimes because there's something culturally or fundamentally 109 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: wrong with them? And how we answer that question is 110 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: going to determine how we sort of, you know, attack 111 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: the issue. Um and So there are people asking that 112 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: question and and building policy you know, around it. And 113 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: I think we need to move away from this model 114 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: of whether there are sort of bad apples of good apples, 115 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: you know, in American policing. The issue isn't the individual cops. 116 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's where we trap ourselves because we 117 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: all are related to cops. We all know, we've all 118 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: interacted with with cops who have helped us. So that 119 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: but that's not the issue that the issue is the 120 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: fact that, uh, the the American the combined cost of 121 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: American policing is more than every their military in the 122 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: world combined, aside from the Chinese and the American military. 123 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: That's the issue. So it's not about individual cops, It's 124 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: about the structure. As you saw people take to the 125 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: streets as the Black Lives Matter movement really gained steam 126 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: and momentum following the death of George Floyd, was that 127 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: something that you embraced and did it feel as if 128 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 1: America was finally all Americans or many many Americans, not 129 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: just sort of the prototypical Americans. The fact that it 130 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: did seem to span the racial divide to a certain extent, 131 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: was that heartening to you? It was? It was certainly 132 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: heartening to me. I mean, the fact that you had 133 00:09:51,440 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: demonstrations against police violence and systemic racism in every single state, 134 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: in almost every single town, uh, no matter it's racial 135 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: and economic sort of makeup, um, And I mean certainly 136 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: was was was heartening to me, As some observers estimated 137 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: that it was the largest series of demonstrations in American 138 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: history and um, And so how could you not as 139 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: someone like me who's who've been calling on Americans to 140 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: to to to to to see the problem not as 141 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: bad people, but to see it as as bad policy 142 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: and um and as structural racism. How could I not 143 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: be heartened? And and indeed, by June of last year, 144 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: one survey found that seventies six percent of Americans we're 145 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: reportedly saying that racism is a big problem. That's the 146 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: highest number ever recorded UM for survey. And and so 147 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: we'll we'll never get to a point on any issue 148 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: where there's a of agreement. That's the beauty of humanity, right. 149 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: We we see things differently, and we have different perspectives. 150 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: But but obviously with some critical issues that is facing humanity, 151 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: like bigotry, like climate change, like nuclear war, like pandemics, 152 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: we have to have a governing majority that recognizes it 153 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: as a problem so that we could, you know, keel 154 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: from it when we come back anti racism for kids, 155 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: while starting the conversation early is so important. That's right 156 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: after this, This is so systemic and so foundational racism 157 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: in America. And I know that you are working so hard, Abraham, 158 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: to reframe and reshape the way we learn about race, 159 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: the way you learned about race, and what was sort 160 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: of force fed into you as a young man, and 161 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: you're doing so much in that arena. But tell me 162 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: about how you're trying to address this at a very 163 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: young age, because it seems to me the more we're 164 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: culturally conditioned, the harder it is to unlearn certain attitudes 165 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: and behavior. I agree, I made it. You know, we 166 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: as adults often talk about how hard it is to 167 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: talk about race and racism. Part of that is because 168 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: we only really started talking about it as adults. Right 169 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: If if we would have been conditioned to talk about 170 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: it and conditioned on how we should talk about it, 171 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,599 Speaker 1: you know, from a young age, then I think it 172 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: would be easier for all of us. And so part 173 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: of for me and ensuring that the youngest of people 174 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: are are talking about this so that they have easier 175 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: lives than we do right over this specific issue. But 176 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: then also they don't grow up like I did, you know, 177 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: thinking that that the problem is is black people. By 178 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: the time I graduated high school in the year two thousand, 179 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: not to date myself, UM, I had consumed a decade 180 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: worth of of anti black ideas saying all the things 181 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: that were wrong with black people, and I thought those 182 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: ideas were true, and I thought, therefore that the problem 183 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: that needed to be addressed were people were black people 184 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: as opposed to systemic racism. And really, I've spent the 185 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: last twenty one year is trying to unlearn uh those 186 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: those those racist ideas that have been fed to me. 187 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: And it's been unbelievably difficult. And I only wish that 188 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: I would have instead of learning racist ideas, I would 189 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: have learned anti racist ideas, because then I could have 190 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: built and I feel like I would have been so 191 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: much further along right now in my life. And in fact, 192 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: you write very movingly about in many ways you had 193 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: to accommodate these anti black narratives from an early age, 194 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: and instead of looking at your potential, your potential was 195 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: kind of imposed on you. Yeah, and because they think 196 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: about it, if in the nineties, if there was ever 197 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: a decade in American history where like black youth were 198 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: considered the American problem, which so much of American politics 199 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: revolved around around black youth. Um, you know, it was 200 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: the nineties, and and so if you're constantly being told 201 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with black youth, and you are a 202 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: black youngster and you struggle in any capacity. It's easy 203 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: for you to delete. But I'm struggling in this way 204 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: because I'm a black youth, right as opposed to you know, 205 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: I'm struggling in this way because I should be working harder, 206 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: or I should be doing this, or I should be 207 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: doing that, and um and so it. By the time 208 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: I graduated high school, I was deeply self conscious, you know, 209 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: about even my academic, uh skills, whether I was even 210 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: worthy of college. I only end up graduate applying for 211 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: two colleges because I didn't feel that I was worthy 212 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: of college. I was shocked when one of the colleges, 213 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: the first of the two, admitted me, like literally, I 214 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: did not think I was college material. And and you know, 215 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: I always wonder how much of that had to do 216 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: with this internalized idea that there was something wrong with 217 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: people like me. You are now working to to kind 218 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: of stop that conditioning and young kids with a picture 219 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: book you have The Anti Race Is Baby. You also 220 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: have a two thousand sixteen books stamp. From the beginning, 221 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: it was just rewritten for middle school students and talk 222 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: about what you're trying to do in terms of shaping 223 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: their perspective and why that is. I think you really 224 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: just described why. That's so critically important because you want 225 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: them to not be in your situation when you were 226 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: a high school senior thinking you had no right or 227 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: or college material. So talk about those projects. So first, 228 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: I think as as caretakers, as people who love young people, 229 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: and I have people love young people. Um, I think 230 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:51,479 Speaker 1: it's important for us to recognize that they see racial inequality. 231 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: Um it's not hard to see, right, And so they're 232 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: going to see that some people, namely white people, have more. 233 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: They're gonna see that other people, you know, let's say, 234 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: you know, black and brown people have less. The question 235 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: that they're gonna be asking is why. And but they're 236 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: also going to live in a society where they are 237 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: these messages that are told to adults and young people 238 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: that that there's something wrong with black people and something 239 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: wrong something right about white people. And so you take 240 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: you separate those two and you put them together. Young people, 241 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: If we're not talking to them about why certain people 242 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: have more and other people have less, will they not 243 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: conclude that white people have more because they are born. 244 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: Will they not conclude that black people have less because 245 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: they are less? Will they not then look at themselves? 246 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: Will not a young white boy say I'm special because 247 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm white, as opposed to I'm special because I'm nice 248 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: or because I'm inquisitive. Well, not a young black girl say, uh, 249 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with me because of the color of 250 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: my skin. Will that not affect their development in terms 251 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: of whether, you know, self esteem or even conceit. You know, 252 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: we don't want our kids thinking to high or low 253 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: of themselves. Um, But ultimately, will they have an accurate 254 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: rendering of society? Uh? And and and the key to 255 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: this isn't you know to teach them that, uh the 256 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: opposite of those ideas that you know, white people are 257 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: less or black people are more. The key is, well, 258 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, this is the result of bad rules that 259 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: have favored certain groups of people over the course of 260 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: time and still do. Just like you know, you don't 261 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: like your curfew or your bedtime. You know their rules 262 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: in society that have created these inequalities. And and it's 263 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: and and these uh inequities don't just exist between let's say, 264 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: black and Native people. They also exist between white people. 265 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: In other words, certain wealthy white people have certain advantages 266 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: over certain white poor people, and white poor people are 267 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: called white trash. Which is a racialized term, and you 268 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: shouldn't think of anybody, any group of people in that way. 269 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: And and so there's so many different It allows us 270 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: to really get at and explain why inequality exists, and 271 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: and and it allows young people to not think that 272 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with people. I I I'm gonna continue 273 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: to say this, like, it is so important for us 274 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: to teach adults and young people that the groups, the 275 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: racial groups are equals. And that doesn't mean that the 276 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: individuals within the groups are all the same. You know, 277 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: I know some black folks and white folks who work 278 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: harder than me. Right, It's but when we talk about groups, 279 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: to say that a particular racial group works harder or 280 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: as lazier, or as more gifted or more smarter than 281 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: another group, that the problem. Let's talk about the royal 282 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: Critical race theory has in this because it's become you know, 283 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: a dirty phrase amongst certain segments of the population. And 284 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: I think it's quite misunderstood because like so many things 285 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: in our current culture, it's become weaponized. So, you know, 286 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 1: I think can we begin by just explaining what critical 287 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: race theory is and why it doesn't need to be 288 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: a dirty phrase, sure. So, I think critical race theory 289 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: emerged in the late nineteen seventies and especially in the 290 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, specifically among legal scholars and lawyers and activists 291 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: who recognized by the nineteen eighties that racial inequity in 292 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: housing and education and criminal justice in the environment, we're 293 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: persisting after civil rights and and so critical race theorists 294 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: then started to examine the structure of policies and power, uh, 295 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: many of which were perceived to be race neutral, that 296 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: was maintaining the inequity. In other words, the critical examination 297 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: of structural racism. And and it wasn't necessarily an attack 298 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: on white people, as it's consistently being framed. It was 299 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: an attack on structure, on policies, on practices that we're 300 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: leading to this inequity, you know, an injustice. And and 301 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: I think it's unfortunate that critical race theory, which again 302 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: started out in legal circles and now has expanded to 303 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: to other circles. One of the personally one of the 304 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: most fascinating interventions of critical race theory was was by 305 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: Kimberly Crenshaw, who who coined the term intersectionality, in which 306 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: she really wanted us to think about the intersection of 307 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: let's say, racism and sexism and the way it was 308 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: impacting black women. So you can't really understand what's impacting 309 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: these the race genders without understanding both um and and 310 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: this gave us the tools to really analyze our society 311 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: and the laws, in particular that we're maintaining inequity, which 312 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: is why it's sort of derived from legal theory. And 313 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: the governor of Idaho recently signed a bill to ban it. 314 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: What happened? How did critical race theory become a weapon 315 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: by the status quo or by certain segments of the 316 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: population or political groups. So I think I mentioned earlier 317 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: how last June, seventies six percent of Americans that we're 318 00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: recognizing that's just that that racism is a big problem. 319 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: Um And ever since the June there has been a 320 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: concerted effort to basically chip away at that highest ever 321 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: percentage of of of of sort of anti racist awareness 322 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: in this country. And this is the latest effort, um 323 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: and and the and and and largely because so let's say, 324 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: for instance, if you are a legislator who recognizes that 325 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: the ideology of the country and the demographics of the 326 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: country are moving away from you such that you can't 327 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: get elected if everyone is easily able to vote. So 328 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: what you're going to do is figure out ways to 329 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: suppress the votes of your political opponents. And if you 330 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: tailor those laws to specifically target black and brown indigenous voters, 331 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 1: whether they're written into the law or not, those are 332 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: racist policies. But how do you get away with those 333 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: racist policies by convincing your constituents in the American people 334 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: that racist policies don't exist and that actually the real 335 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: problem are those people who are identifying certain policies as racists. 336 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: You know, those are the real racist, the people who 337 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: talk about racism, um, not the policies themselves. So that 338 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: allows you to get away with those policies, uh, continue 339 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: to pass them, continue to think caused people to think, 340 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: uh that that uh, that the problem are those who 341 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: are identifying racism rather than the racism itself. And then 342 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: you're able to convince your constituents, who now it's harder 343 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: even for them to vote, that those policies are not 344 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: only good for them, but they're also not racist. And 345 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: and so to me that it's part of a larger 346 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: plot and plan to establish sort of a very small 347 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: segment of people bull controlling the rest of us. Is 348 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: it the the last gasp of a white patriarchal system. 349 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: I'd like to hope so. Um and I like to 350 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: hope so, because even the white patriarchal system white men, 351 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: for instance, many many millions of white men right now 352 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: are not benefiting from it. Uh. You know, and to 353 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: give an example, you know, we have this epidemic right 354 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: now that we're not talking about of white male suicide 355 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: by hand gun. Uh. And the levels of white men 356 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: who are who are dying be a suicide by handgun 357 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: are at the levels of black men who die by homicides. 358 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: Um and And so why is that and where is 359 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: this primarily happening? This is primarily happening uh in states 360 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: that are controlled by politicians who primarily say they're defenders 361 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,239 Speaker 1: of white men. Right. And I'm going to make it 362 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: easier for you. I'm gonna make sure that you know 363 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: you have your Second Amendment rights. I'm gonna make sure 364 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: you have access to guns so you can protect you 365 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: and your family and your your quote women from those 366 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: black criminals, those Latino X immigrants, and those Muslim terrors. 367 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: So then people they're able to get guns and now 368 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: they're killing themselves and uh and it's a tragedy. You know, 369 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: it's a tragedy that continues to happen, just as you 370 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: have so many white working class uh men who were 371 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: devastated by this pandemic and this previous presidency. You know, 372 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: at the same time they are imagining that that certain 373 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 1: elected officials are seeking to benefit. Then we become so tribalistic, 374 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: abram and it seems like that we're just a society 375 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: of warring tribes that you know, it's a zero sum game, 376 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: and that someone else's move towards equality is going to 377 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: hurt someone else. I'll never forget I worked at a 378 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: network and the guy said to me, here, someone else's 379 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: success diminishes you, someone else's failure elevates you. Well, you 380 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: can imagine I wasn't very excited about working at this organization. 381 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: And I feel like that you could almost apply that 382 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: to society today. How do how do we get out 383 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: of this trap of feeling that if someone else does well, 384 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: we're not going to do well, and that there's something 385 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: important and beautiful dare I say about leveling a playing field? 386 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: So I actually, I actually think this is extremely important 387 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: issue and and and it's certainly an issue that Heather 388 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 1: McGee addresses in her new book called The Some of 389 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: Us Um, in which she pushes back against this sort 390 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: of zero sum myth of American society, and specifically the 391 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: myth that many white Americans have um that as people 392 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: of color gain, they lose in the greatest in the 393 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: in the most general sense, what I would actually urge 394 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: white Americans to think about it's to not compare their 395 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: lot two people of color. I think white Americans should 396 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: be comparing their lot to white Canadians, to white folks 397 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: in Europe, and think about what do they have that 398 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: you don't have, Whether it's universal health care, universit of 399 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: child care, whether it's lower levels of income um and 400 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: economic you know, inequality, whether it's lower levels of white 401 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: people dying by police, and on and on. Uh. And 402 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: I think once if if I think white Americans was 403 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: to change their frame of reference two. Okay, you know what, 404 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: my kid goes to a first class school, and if 405 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: we change things, they're gonna have to go back and coach. 406 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: You know, Actually, why can't all of our kids be 407 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: going to like private jet schools, which you haven't personally 408 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: even been exposed to right and and and why can't 409 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: all of us have that level of resources, you know, 410 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: for our children, Because if we were to change this country, 411 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: most people would actually gain. Um. But I don't think 412 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: people think about it in that sense, particularly right Americans. 413 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: And it's this isn't just white Americans. You have black 414 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: elites who are like, oh, if if things change, we're 415 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: gonna lose. You have, you know, different elites of color 416 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: who think the same way, and and and that's just 417 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: not true, um, and and and and I think that Unfortunately, UM, 418 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: it's gonna take some time for people to realize that. 419 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: And I think as we make changes and people see that, whoa, 420 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: I actually thought I was gonna lose with the institutionalization 421 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: of the Affordable Care Act, but I'm gaining This is 422 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: actually good for me. Oh whoa, whoa, wait wait they're 423 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: trying to do it. Wait with this No no, no no 424 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: no no. Even though before I was against it, now 425 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to defend it. And so that's what I'm 426 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: urging us to be focused on. We need to make 427 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: people's lives better. We need to show them that by 428 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: making these these huge changes, that they're gonna gain. There's 429 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: no better proof than that when we come back the 430 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: guilt and urgency that comes with the devastating cancer diagnosis 431 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: at just thirty five, that's right after this. It feels 432 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: as if you were we make take two steps forward, 433 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: one step back. It's just a constant, dizzy kind of 434 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: progress and then setbacks. Recently, Nicole Hannah Jones was denied 435 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: this position at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. 436 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: She was denied tenure by the board of trustees. What 437 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: was your reaction to what happened to her and the 438 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: outcry that resulted, and what did it tell you about 439 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: the power and balance in the country that still exists? 440 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: So I wasn't surprised and and that the board of 441 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: Trustees at unc Chapel Hill would would politicize her her 442 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: her tenure case and decide uh that they were going 443 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: to deny her her tenure. And the reason why I 444 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: wasn't surprised is because as someone who has been doing 445 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: similar work within the academy UM, I know that what 446 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,959 Speaker 1: is expected of scholars and intellectuals like us, uh, you know, 447 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: like Nicole um is sometimes we simply are unable no 448 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: matter what we do, even if we're genius to her 449 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: winner of Politzer Prize, winner MacArthur. Even if we've won, 450 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: as Nicole has multiple national magazine awards, you know, even 451 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: if we are the conceiver of one of the most 452 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: important journalistic projects, uh, you know, of our time, that's 453 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: still not enough because your politics, and I should say 454 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: they're politics, uh, sort of block us. And and I 455 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: think I took it very personally in the sense that 456 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: I've seen that happen to so many people in the academy, um, 457 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: you know obviously who weren't as well known as Nicole 458 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: and and in certain ways I've I've had to overcome 459 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: massive um uh speed bumps because of the type of 460 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: work I was trying to do. So I was at 461 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: the same time outraged because to me, she is a 462 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: slam dunk um. You know, she's the type of person that, 463 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, any journalism school in the country would want 464 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: to have tenured as a full professor teaching their students. 465 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: At the same time, I wasn't surprised in the least. 466 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: Have you spoken with her about this? I haven't spoken 467 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: with her about this specific instance, but over the last 468 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: year we have spoken about the similarity OVC of the 469 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: attacks that we've both been receiving, right, And so you know, 470 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: she has been just consistently with been an attack and 471 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, misrepresented for her sixty nineteen project and really 472 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: her work in general. And obviously I've been consistently attacked, 473 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: you know as well. And so I think we have 474 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: reassured each other and and and been there for each 475 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: other and been able to you know, share that you know, 476 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: we were going through similar sort of experiences and um. 477 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I know how deeply she 478 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: cares for students, journalism, students. I know how deeply she 479 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: cares for this nation. I know how deeply she cares 480 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: for for black life, and I know how um just 481 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: brilliant she is as a thinker, you know, as a writer, 482 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: you know, as and as a creator. And so I 483 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: also took this personally as someone who who's a huge admirer, 484 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, of her, because to me, she should be 485 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: celebrated as opposed to denied, you know, tenure, what should 486 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: she do? Um, I think she should do what she 487 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: has just continued to do amazingly despite the critiques on 488 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: the six nineteen project and her work and her vision 489 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: for the country. She has continued to power through and 490 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: do her work. Um, but should she should she leave 491 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: that institution? That's not something I can answer. Um, if 492 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: it were you, would you? So? I think if I 493 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: was in her shoes, I mean, I think I would 494 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: consider it certainly. Um, but I'm not sure what I would. 495 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what I would do. I think a 496 00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: lot of people's eyes were opened in a way they 497 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: hadn't been before. Uh. You know, they might conceive that 498 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: racism exists, it's bad. But I think that many white 499 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: Americans got a very important and and late education in 500 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: racism because it was talked about in a way that 501 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: had been only addressed around the edges really in media 502 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: and in culture at large. How do we continue the conversation? 503 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: How in a in a country that has a very 504 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: short attention span and really demands almost instant gratification, uh 505 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: and and and instant solutions. How can we continue these 506 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: important conversations? How can we push for change? What is 507 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: the most effective means of doing that? I think that 508 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: we should think about this in terms of as individuals 509 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: and as organizations and institutions, and so as individuals, each 510 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: and every one of us can think about sort of 511 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: what are we passionate about and knowledge about what sector? Um? 512 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: You know, based on our hobbies or our profession, our interests, 513 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, where are we at in society? Are are 514 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: we in you know, education? Are we in healthcare? Are 515 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: we in the environment? Or we in sort of mass media? 516 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: Where do we sit? Um? And then secondly, I think 517 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: each and every one of us as individuals can think about, Okay, 518 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: those organizations in our specific space that are challenging racism, 519 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: that are trying to create equitable and just sectors or 520 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: institutions and communities, how can we support them? Right? You know, 521 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: what can we do as individuals to support them, whether 522 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: through volunteering, whether providing our expertise, whether donating to those organizations? 523 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: You know what do we have to give um to 524 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: those efforts? Um? And then obviously each of us, most 525 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: of us live in local communities, neighborhoods, working institutions, and 526 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: so it's thinking about that in the same bandage point. 527 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: You know, those folks who are working against this in 528 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: my specific neighborhood, in my specific institution, how can I 529 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: support them? I can't let you go without asking you 530 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: about your health because you were diagnosed with something that 531 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: affected me personally, I lost my husband to calling cancer 532 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 1: in n he was forty two years old. And first 533 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: and foremost, I want to see how you're doing, if 534 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: if I can help you in any way, and how 535 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: you're kind of soldiering on, because I know firsthand it's 536 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: a rough road. Wow. Um. Well, first you know, of course, 537 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, UM, my heart of course goes out to 538 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: your family and you know, I'm sure it's something that 539 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: you've been living with. And I'm dealing with for for 540 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: for quite some time. And I am elated. Whether elated 541 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: is the best word, I don't know that recently the 542 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: screening age was lower to and so there's a growing 543 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,479 Speaker 1: awareness of the number of young people who are being 544 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: diagnosed UM and who are facing this um, this ugly disease. 545 00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: And I personally, I was recently, you know, scanned and 546 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: everything looks looks fine, um, And so I think I've 547 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: been doing good. I am don't have any noticeable cancer 548 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: in my body. But you know, obviously it's just when 549 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: you have stage four cancer, it's it can come back 550 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: at any point. And so UM, I feel lucky. UM. 551 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: And in a way, I feel almost like a survivor's 552 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: guilt because of so many people who were diagnosed with 553 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: the same disease who tragically are just not with us. 554 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: And I'm always asking, you know, why me, why am 555 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: I still here and not them? But I also try 556 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,479 Speaker 1: to soldier or on in, you know, as you sort 557 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: of characterize it, to just do do good for the world, 558 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 1: right um. And to even have a sense of urgency. 559 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: I think the best aspect of facing this illness is, 560 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: I know, you know, time is something that I know, 561 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's not guaranteed, and we all know 562 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: that theoretically, but you know, for me, it's you know, 563 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: the idea, oh, we can just wait to do that. Well, 564 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: I can't wait, you know, I don't know what's gonna 565 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: happen at my next scan. I don't know what's going 566 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: to happen, you know, two months from now, or if 567 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: I start feeling, you know something, and and so I 568 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: think it gives me a level of urgency. I think 569 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,319 Speaker 1: that's why some people are like, why are you doing 570 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: all these different things? You know, why don't you wait 571 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: to do this or that? And I'm like, wait for when? Right? Um? 572 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: And And also I think we have to have a 573 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: certain level of urgency because there's so many people who 574 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: are suffering. Is that what propelled you? I mean, you're 575 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: doing so much, Abram, And I know one of your 576 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: latest project is that you've gotten together a chorus of 577 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,280 Speaker 1: black voices to talk about the African American experience. And 578 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: you have put together this incredible roster of people. And 579 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: was that born of what's happening to you personally? And 580 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: because you're kind of your tentacles are are are reaching 581 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: far and wide. I think so I for me, once 582 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 1: an idea emerges in right, I obviously you know I 583 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: can only I'm only one person. I can only do 584 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: so much. I need support, UM. But for me, I 585 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: tried to think about instead of whether we can do 586 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: the idea, whether we can put together four Souls, which 587 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,760 Speaker 1: was just an unbelievable experience to really work with ninety writers, 588 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,919 Speaker 1: eight of who wrote five years of African American history 589 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: amounting to forge years, and intent poets who almost acted 590 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: like these lyrical soloists in the books. So every sort 591 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: of UM section would end with with with with the 592 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: poem to really commemorate the four symbolic birthday as we 593 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: called it, of you know Black America. You know, for me, 594 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: it's always okay, how can I not whether I can 595 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: do it? But what type of support would I need 596 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: to participate in this in this project if it's important? 597 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: And I'm glad we were able to. I was able 598 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: to work with Professor Keisha Blaine and we were able 599 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: to put together four intred souls and their ninety writers 600 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: in all, What did you learn from these people, because 601 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: you have been so steeped in in this issue for 602 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,359 Speaker 1: a very long time, what did you personally kind of 603 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: gleaned from their experiences that added to your own perspective? So, 604 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing that I learned is just 605 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: how universal history and the writing of history and the 606 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: writing of the past is. So we have so many 607 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: people who weren't necessarily trained historians who contributed to the text, 608 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,800 Speaker 1: but they were also they were able to write about 609 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: the past from so many different vantage points in so 610 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: many different ways, which made this story is so compelling 611 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: And if anything, it taught me how we can write 612 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: history in an accessible way, you know, bringing in people 613 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, many different people to do so well. Thank 614 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: you for spending this time with me. I really enjoyed 615 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: our conversation and um you've given me a lot to 616 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: think about in terms of what more can I do, 617 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: both individually and you know, collectively. So thank you, You're welcome. 618 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: You're welcome, Katie, and you know again of course it 619 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: admire your work. And um, she was so glad recently 620 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 1: to see you on Jeopardy and should looked like you 621 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: were having tremendous fun. I was very stressed, daddy from 622 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: so You're black. You thought it looked like I was 623 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 1: having fun. A huge thank you again to my guest 624 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: dr Abrahm X. KNDy will link to all of his 625 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: work in the description of this podcast, and you can 626 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: catch his new podcast called The Anti Racist beginning June nine, 627 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,280 Speaker 1: and his new book, which he co edited with Kesha Blaine, 628 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: is called four Hundred Souls, A Community History of African 629 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: America six nineteen to two thousand nineteen. Buy it, read it, 630 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: and spread the word. Next Question with Katie Kurik is 631 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,800 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Media and Katie Curic Media. 632 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: The executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The 633 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, 634 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by 635 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 1: Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 636 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go 637 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: to Katie currect dot com. You can also find me 638 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: at Katie Currect on Instagram and all my social media channels. 639 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 640 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 641 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:29,280 Speaker 1: your favorite shows,