WEBVTT - #114 Jason Flom with Julie Rea 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.440 On October thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, Julie Ray woke to 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.320 a sound from her ten year old boy, Joel's bedroom. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:11.960 When she looked, she did not see Joel, and a 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.480 man in a sche mask lunged from the darkness. Julie, 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.360 a black belt in taekwondo, struggled with the masked man 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.200 as he escaped to the backyard, slamming her head on 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:24.680 the ground before fleeing into the night. Julie banged on 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.120 her neighbor's door, asking for help and saying that Joel 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.320 was gone. When Jariff Deputy Dennis Yorke searched the house, 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.080 he found Joel between the bed and the nearby wall, 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.280 his pajamas soaked in blood. He had been stabbed twelve times. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.080 Despite her own injuries and the minuscule amount of Joel's 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.239 blood found on her shirt, authorities came up with a 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.479 theory that there was no intruder and that Julie was 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.720 responsible for the death of her own son. After a 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:53.000 bumbling tunnel vision investigation searching only for evidence of Julie's 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.240 killed and coming up empty, the prosecution resorted to using 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:01.680 blood spatter analysis, a known junk science. Experts testified anyway, 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:06.160 employing no actual demonstration that the bloodstains were consistent with 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:10.000 Julie wielding the murder weapon. Julie was sentenced to sixty 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.760 five years in prison and subjected to the abuse that 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.280 befalls a person who murdered their own child. Just two 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.680 years later, a serial child murderer facing the death penalty 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.160 for a nearly identical crime and who was linked to 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.039 many other similar crimes, confessed to being the masked man 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.880 from Julie's version of events. His confession was corroborated, and 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.039 she was acquitted at her retrial in two thousand and 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:36.000 six and formerly exonerated in twenty ten. All of this 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.120 was made possible with the help of the Center on 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.400 Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, and, most notably, staff attorney 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:47.360 Karen Daniel, to whom this episode is lovingly and respectfully dedicated. 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.880 Karen was a pioneer in the innocentce movement and a 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:55.000 hero to many. She passed away on December twenty sixth, 0:01:55.120 --> 0:02:10.680 twenty nineteen. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plum. Welcome 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.799 back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. I'm your host 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.880 and I'm here today. With a woman who I am 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.000 really kind of in awe of, to put it mildly, 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:27.520 Julie Ray is a person of incredible integrity, strength, and purpose, 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.680 I would say. And she is an ax hoonnery from 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.280 Illinois who was wrongfully convicted of the murderer of her 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:39.200 own son. Julie, I'm very happy you're here. I'm obviously 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.200 sorry you have to be here, but I'm happy you're here. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:42.640 Thank you, Jason. 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.799 And with Julie, it's a guy named Ron Safer. Ron 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.160 is a partner at Riley Safer Homes and Cancilla. And 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.760 Ron is a former Assistant US Attorney for the Northern 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:57.640 District of Illinois and moreover, he does work today for 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.919 the Center of Wrongful Convictions at the north Western University 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.160 Pritzker School of Law. And he's a colleague and a 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.760 dear friend of the late great Karen Daniel, who will 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.880 speak to you about to whom we'll pay tribute later 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.840 in this episode. So Ron, welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:16.640 It's a pleasure to be here. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.320 So yeah, it's a side because I'm going to go 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.920 back to the beginning. I read Julie's story when she 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.000 was on the cover of the New York Times magazine 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.360 and the headline was she was exonerated of the murder 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.760 of her son. Her life is still shattered and with 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.360 that it's one of the most powerful pictures I've ever seen. 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.040 Let me just say that, you can look it up yourselves, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.960 but it was. There was so much pain and so much, 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.560 so much more to it than that in this photograph. 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.120 I just thought, this is someone I know. If I 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.280 can do anything to share her story or to help 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.320 in any way, I'm committed to do it. So Julie, 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.760 going back to the beginning, can you take us through 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.280 what your life was like before this happened. I mean, 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:09.480 you were a woman of tremendous potential and someone who 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.800 had accomplished a great deal of black belt in taekwondo, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:14.040 a doctoral student. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:16.920 Well, the black belt in taekwon was kind of a joke, 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.000 but it was something Joel and I did together which 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:21.839 was really fun. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.240 But you were working towards your doctorate in educational psychology 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:31.520 right at the time that everything went completely haywire. Can 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.400 you just talk to us a little bit of how 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.720 you chose that field, and that's a hell of a 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.120 thing to take on when you're raising a child, you know, 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:40.040 as a single mom. 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:47.680 It was a perfect fit. It gave me time to 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:53.080 be there for Joel, a flexible schedule. School was a 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:58.640 good match for me. I really enjoyed graduate work and 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:04.479 the field was very interesting. I had wonderful mentors, and 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.160 I had a planned on a career in academia, which 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:13.200 would give me a chance to research things I loved 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.520 and was interested in. It would give me an excellent 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:20.799 environment for Joel. He was brilliant and intrigued with learning. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:25.920 Joel and I enjoyed the life that we had at 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:30.359 the time. We had a lot of extracurricular activities and friends. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.520 We had a great neighborhood and community where we lived. 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.360 We were doing a lot of fun things together and 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.440 just really looking forward to the next part of our 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.200 lives together. I remember things that Joel and I used 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:55.839 to like to do before everything changed. I remember sitting 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.919 by the door when it was storming and listening to 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.160 the rain while we were reading. And his favorite soup 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.159 is chicken noodle, so he had chicken noodle, and I 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:09.120 like tomatoes, so I had tomato. Just so many good 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.920 memories of all the things we were doing in our 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:19.400 lives at that time. I remember, I can't sing to 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.279 save my life, and Jall kind of inherited some of 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:27.359 that ability from me. But we would drive through and 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.919 get tacos from this one place. It was actually a 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.520 little tavern, was a very small talent, so we had 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.160 limited options. And this one night of the week we 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.240 had these great tacos and they had to drive through, 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.680 and then we would drive through and get a hot 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.200 pudge Sunday and we had done that. We were coming 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:49.200 home from taekwondo and we weren't singing. I don't know 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.320 what those songs in the Jungle, the Mighty Jungle, the 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:57.520 lines leaps tonight with the windows down, there was just 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:03.960 a really happy time. So much was going right, So 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:05.080 much was going right. 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.000 And Ron, if I can turn this over to you, 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:13.400 because I know this is borderline impossible for Julie to discuss, 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.080 but can you share some of the details of this case. 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.560 You know what happened and how this all went so 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:21.400 horribly wrong. 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:27.600 Sure, Julie and Joel were together in Julie's home and 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.560 in the middle of the night, four am, an intruder 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:38.080 came into the home. Julie didn't tear him. He is 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:43.080 somebody who has broken into homes and trailers across the 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:49.080 country without being heard. He was a serial murderer and 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.679 somebody very skilled at this, and so he was not heard. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.680 He came into Joel's bedroom, stamped him to death, and 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:04.240 pushed him off the bed. Julie awoke to some sound 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:10.040 and she looked across from her bed into Joel's bedroom 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.000 and saw that he was not in the bed, and 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:17.400 so she woke herself up, started going towards his bedroom 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.760 and banged into somebody in the hallway. It was Tommy 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.560 Lynde Sells who she banged into, and the knife that 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.320 he held was found right there where Julie said they 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:33.000 banged into each other. He then sought to leave the house. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.160 Julie grabbed onto his legs. Now again, Julie doesn't know 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.840 what's going on. All she knows is that Joel's not 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.600 in his bed. So you can imagine what a flood 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.400 of thoughts anybody would have at that time. So she 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.079 doesn't know what's going on, but she grabs onto this 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:56.160 guy for dear life. He drags her along the carpet, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.839 and indeed she has rugburns on her knees from that 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:05.160 he breaks away get into the garage where there is 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:10.400 another door to the outside. Julie wants again grabs onto 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.520 him because he's having trouble getting out of that back door. 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.600 He breaks the glass to get out of the back door, 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:22.080 and Julie grabs onto him again for dear life, thinking 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:26.760 that he's the only link to Joel, and he drags 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.040 her along. She has scrapes on the top of her 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.600 feet from being dragged across the glass that is broken 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.360 from that door. He goes out into the backyard she's 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:43.280 holding on has grass stains from that. He then takes 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:48.480 her head, smashes it into the ground and walks off. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.760 Julie immediately went to a neighbor's house and they called 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:59.439 the police, and the police found Joel's at that point 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:06.080 dying body. And from there, you know, of course, the 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:11.440 universe is changed, and everything that happened from that minute 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:16.240 that I started that narrative until Julie got out of 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:18.520 jail years later went wrong. 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:25.760 And this one, I mean, even for me, this one 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:31.440 is absolutely mind boggling because it not only didn't make sense, 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.920 it couldn't have made sense. You have nothing to pin 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:39.880 this on Julie, And in fact, there's every arrow pointing 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.720 directly at an intruder. Of course, back then, nobody knew 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.080 who it was. That comes clear later at the story 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.160 when he actually confesses. Right. 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:55.559 The case agent testified under my cross examination ultimately that everyone, 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.000 people who liked Julie, people who didn't like Julie, every 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.560 everyone told him that Julie and Joel had a good 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:08.480 and loving relationship. This was a quote. He could not 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.559 find anyone who would say that she raised her voice 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:17.960 to him, let alone her hand. So why would anybody 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:24.280 think that somebody who is a PhD candidate, an educational psychology, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.320 with a good and loving relationship with their son, and 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.280 a good and caring person would do something like this. 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.240 And no prior history of violence or mental issues or 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.000 anything nice. Quite the opposite, actually, right, So, in order 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.600 to get to where we're trying to figure out how, 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.600 I don't know if we'll ever really know why the 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.760 authorities in this case chose to pin this on Julie. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.199 Julie had just lived through a scene from the worst 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:55.400 horror movie that anyone could ever see, every parent's worst nightmare. So, Julie, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.800 if you can talk about it from there, you weren't 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.600 arrested then in there. This was something that took time 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.679 to wind its way through, and at some point they 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.440 decided to develop a narrative, maybe just because they couldn't 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.720 figure it out that involved you. But you've spoken to 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.600 me in the article about what your life was like 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:16.520 in the aftermath of this horror. 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:18.840 Well, in defense of the police, I mean, I think 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:25.280 that they were poorly trained. I think that they didn't 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.079 know what to do. It was a small town, they 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.839 weren't used to handling these kinds of crime scenes. They 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:36.360 showed up mishandled the evidence horribly. I mean where there 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:41.439 were hair and fiber evidence opportunities, they lost them. They 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.560 actually ruined them. They picked up the quilt that Joel 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:50.560 had been under and took a picture of themselves destroying 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.640 evidence and then showed that picturing court as though they 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.160 were proud of it. That is the level of incompetence. 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:06.280 And they did not take fingerprints. They for whatever reason, 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:12.760 decided that because the way the glass broke and fell 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:17.200 on the floor or the ground, that it was broken 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.960 out like I told them, the man had broken the 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:27.240 glass out, that they didn't think that was reasonable, which 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.079 I don't know what is reasonable when you have somebody 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.600 coming into a home and killing someone. He did use 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:39.000 a knife from my home, and they didn't fingerprint around 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.880 the knife block that they took the knife from. I 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.680 guess they thought that. I really have no clue what 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:52.600 they thought. I just don't know. I thought they were 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.400 trying to solve the crime. I thought they were trying 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.360 to catch the person. I was in shock. 0:13:58.520 --> 0:13:59.040 I was. 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:05.600 In denial. When you're in shock, you look for ways 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.600 to fix things. I thought if I helped them, maybe 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.720 somehow we could fix what had happened. I don't know, 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:16.760 so I just talked to them and try to answer 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.360 all their questions. I had no idea that they could 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:25.160 possibly consider me a suspect. I mean, they actually came 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.160 to me at one point and said that they had 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:32.640 satellite photos, and I was thrilled to death because if 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:37.400 they had satellite photos, then we had evidence that we 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.560 could use to catch the person that did this. And 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.600 so we went back and forth for quite a long 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:51.880 time because there were no satellite photos, and they thought 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:53.440 they were going to catch me in some kind of 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:58.280 a lie or confuse me or trip me up or something. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.320 So they kept moving the information around like no the 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.600 satellite photos are only of a certain part of the art, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.880 and so I would say, oh, okay, well that's fine then, 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.560 you know, just broaden the scope of whatever you've got, 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.680 you know, or look at the different time periods. He 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:16.320 had to have moved through that part of the art 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:22.440 at some point, and they had no satellite photos at 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.640 that point. I had no idea cops would lie, you know. 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.520 I was looking for some real information. I mean, the 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:34.640 kind of person that does something like this is going 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:35.400 to do it again. 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.000 That's a key point. I'm glad you brought that up, 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:43.240 because as citizens, all of us want to see a 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.480 person like Tommy Linzel's apprehended and brought to justice as 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.400 quickly as possible, because everyone's at risk if not. And 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.080 of course we know from the case after case that 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:59.400 when the wrong person is pursued, ultimately arrested and then charged, 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.520 they stopped looking for the right person. In this case, 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.480 the right person was a serial killer named tommyland Sells. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.440 And I think you're right to point out the training. 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.000 This was a small town, right, so it's reasonable to 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.200 assume that these officers didn't have a great deal of 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.880 experience investigating crimes as serious as this one. But the 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.400 fact that they didn't even dust the bedroom or the 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.880 butcher block, as you said, for fingerprints, that they didn't 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:25.120 preserve critical trace evidence from Joel's bedspread, the fact that 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.080 from the beginning they focused on you and any blood 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.360 that you might have tried to wash away, right they done. 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.960 Yeah, septic tank, they dug up the septic tank. They 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.200 did all kinds of things, and they didn't bother to 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.280 give us this information at the time. But apparently the 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.000 first officer on the scene threw up on the scene. 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.760 Wow, I mean, and that exactly a time when you 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.200 should have been receiving nothing but care and support and they're, 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.920 you know, instead hunting you and trying to pin this 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:52.560 thing on you. 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.600 Okay, but let me inject a little bit of experience 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:59.320 into this. I was a prosecutor. These were not only 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.600 local police, they were the Illinois State Police. These people 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.480 had experience where this went off the rails, was where 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:13.520 cases all too often get off the rails. They did 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:19.600 not believe Julie from the first second, and often when 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:25.680 children are murdered, parents become suspects for whatever reason. These 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:30.439 officers jumped to a conclusion and then took steps that 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:37.679 resulted in confirmation of that conclusion. That is, they concluded 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.240 that Julie did it with no evidence, no reason, but 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:46.399 they did. Therefore, why fingerprint because her fingerprints are going 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.360 to be all over the place. Why preserve fibers because 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:52.800 her fibers are going to be all over the place. 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:57.919 And then they say, well, there's no evidence of an intruder. 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.320 Of course, there's no evidence of an intruder. You destroyed 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.159 it or did not capture any of the evidence of 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:09.600 the intruder. So when you view the evidence and then 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.960 either failed to create it or destroy the evidence that 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.960 is counter to the way you view it, then you 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.879 have a self fulfilling prophecy. And by the way, you 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.320 mentioned the investigation went on for years. What happened is 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:31.520 they investigated, investigated, investigated, got of course no evidence that 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.800 Julie committed the crime because she didn't. Asked her to 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.879 take a polygraph, She took a polygraph, passed the polygraph, 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.600 They investigated some more, asked her to take a second polygraph. 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.280 She passed a second polygraph. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.000 The local prosecutor would not indict me. He said, there's 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.880 no evidence. I'm not going to indict her. So they 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:57.080 got a special prosecutor and brought him in. Ed Parkinson 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.959 was a state prosecutor. He came from the specials secutor's office, 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.280 a Pellet prosecutor's office. They indicted with a grand jury, 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.399 and he promised that he would tell the grand jury 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.600 if they asked that I had passed two polygraphs. Not 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.160 only did he not give them that information, he himself, 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:21.200 who was conducting the grand jury, testified by saying, when 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.520 they asked, did she take a polygraph? He said, out 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:29.800 of fairness to the defendant, I will not answer that question, 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.800 we won't give you that information, implying I had not 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.359 passed polygraphs. 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:38.840 Do you feel that at this point, and you're really 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.359 a perfect person to answer this, that the people in 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.280 position to make these decisions knew that they were prosecuting 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.200 an innocent woman. 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:52.080 I think that the prosecutors, if I had to guess, 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.320 didn't care. I think he certainly misled the jury and 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:01.200 didn't care one way or the other. The local police, 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:06.520 I'm not sure if they knew, but they ignored all 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.320 of the evidence of the contrary. For example, Julie put 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:15.240 together a sketch of the intruder. The local bus station 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:21.600 person called the police and said, Hey, that guy was 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:28.000 just here. He purchased a bus ticket to win Amacca, Nevada, 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.960 a tiny town. He didn't have enough money. I gave 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.360 him the ticket anyway, I wanted him out of here. 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:39.000 He gave a horrible vibe and she called the police 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:44.359 and told him that where was Tommy Lynn Sells arrested 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:52.880 at one point Winnamucca, Nevada. What is between Winnemucca, Nevada 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:58.160 and where he bought that bus ticket? Springfield, Missouri where 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:03.200 two days after he murdered Joel, he murdered a little 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:08.560 girl named Stephanie Mahaney. The police knew that. The police 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:26.119 ignored that, unbelievably. It gets worse because even if you 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:33.000 totally ignored Tommy Lynn Sells, if you examine the physical evidence, 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:38.960 you realize that it prohibits Julie as a suspect, excludes her. 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.640 And one thing that the state used at her trial 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:48.240 was a blood spatter expert who testified in a way 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:54.240 that is unscrupulous, is a compliment. He took over the courtroom, 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.679 he splattered fake blood all over the courtroom, and then 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:03.520 he testified that the bloodines convicted Julie showed that she 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:10.640 committed the crime. It showed, in fact, exactly the opposite. 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:16.320 Julie had three transfer stains on her T shirt that 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.720 had Joel's blood on it, which were smudged. They were 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.159 not transferred by a hand. They were transferred by a 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:29.600 glove or something something that an intruder might wear. There 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:34.040 was blood spatter all of this room. Her T shirt 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:38.960 was Christine of blood spatter, and it was not cleaned. 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:43.240 They luminoled the house. There was no cleaning that went on. 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:49.800 And there was one blood spatter from Joel's blood on 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:54.679 Julie's T shirt. It was a ninety degree that is, 0:22:54.840 --> 0:23:02.679 a drop from directly above it on her back. So 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:07.679 when could that have possibly happened? Obviously not if she 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.760 was committing the crime. Could not have come from Joel, 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:16.560 but easily could have come from Tommy Lynn Sells or 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:21.320 some unnamed intruder at that time who after he smashed 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.240 her head into the ground in the backyard, dropped a 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:29.040 bit of blood whatever it is. You know that she 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:33.160 could not have committed that crime from that one drop 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:37.040 of blood spatter. They put this expert on the stand 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:41.440 in the second trial, as the juror said, he ended 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.560 up after cross examination after telling the same lies ondirect 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:50.560 After cross examination, he ended up being a powerful defense 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:56.679 witness because blood spatter evidence proved beyond any reasonable doubt 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.760 that Julie was totally innocent of this crime. 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:06.080 And there are no eyewitnesses. Obviously, there's no forensic evidence. 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:11.000 As we've discussed, there's no motive. So the entire case 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.480 hinged on that tiny amount of blood on the T shirt. 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:18.680 And we know that blood spatter it's not conducted by scientists. 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:22.400 Typically is conducted by detectives or other law enforcement personnel 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:25.320 who may be trained in crime scene stuff, but they're 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:29.640 not trained in science, generally speaking. And the idea that 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.359 they can get up there with impunity and with authority 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:35.520 and make assertions to things like they did in this 0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:39.159 case that are so damning when they actually don't know 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.560 what they're talking about or they're lying. It's another reform 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:45.920 that needs to be made so that this doesn't happen again. 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.720 Right, The blood evidence really was just as you described 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:55.840 in the first trial. It was distorted, it was lied about, 0:24:56.720 --> 0:25:03.200 and unfortunately Julie's attorney at that time was not equipped 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:09.040 to take that expert on that and the unanswered question 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:13.720 of who does this, Who breaks into a home to 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:19.200 kill a child, leaves an adult essentially unharmed, and forgets 0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:23.600 to bring a murder weapon, uses the weapon from the house, Well, 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:29.160 the answer is tommylind Sells. He's done that in half 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:34.680 a dozen cases across the country. But they close their 0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:39.600 mind to the possibility that a person like that existed. 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:45.400 I think a big part of the reason that jury's 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:49.959 convict people wrongly, especially in a case like this, is 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:54.639 because it's terrifying to let this kind of a crime 0:25:54.680 --> 0:26:02.160 go unanswered. And we resume that our detectives have done 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.400 their jobs and brought us the right people, that our 0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:12.000 prosecutors are prosecuting sincerely, that they've done their jobs and 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.639 they've worked hard, and they know that they're prosecuting the 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:17.960 right people. That we can trust the people in the 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:23.240 stand when they're under oath, that they wouldn't lie. And sadly, 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:27.600 we are finding that we can't assume these things, and 0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:31.360 that's a terrifying reality that's got to change. And if 0:26:31.359 --> 0:26:35.000 we as a culture and as a country, as a 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:41.200 group of people, as jurors don't hold accountable prosecutors and 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:46.600 detectives and law enforcement, it won't change. 0:26:47.560 --> 0:26:49.440 I would add, by the way, that at the time 0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:55.040 we began Julie's case, I shared the naive assumptions that 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:58.040 Julie just said that we have to disabuse people of 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:01.400 that the prosecutor are there to do the right thing, 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:03.600 that the police are there to do the right thing. 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.199 That had been my experience. I was a prosecutor for 0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:14.359 ten years. The Illinois States Attorney General supervised this. When 0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:19.240 I saw the evidence in this case, I said, we 0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:22.200 need to take this to the state's attorney general because 0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:27.160 they will dismiss this case when they hear this. And 0:27:27.400 --> 0:27:30.320 my colleagues, who were more experienced, said no, that's not 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:33.480 going to happen, but I insisted on doing it. We 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:37.119