1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: On October thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, Julie Ray woke to 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: a sound from her ten year old boy, Joel's bedroom. 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: When she looked, she did not see Joel, and a 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: man in a sche mask lunged from the darkness. Julie, 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: a black belt in taekwondo, struggled with the masked man 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: as he escaped to the backyard, slamming her head on 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: the ground before fleeing into the night. Julie banged on 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: her neighbor's door, asking for help and saying that Joel 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: was gone. When Jariff Deputy Dennis Yorke searched the house, 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: he found Joel between the bed and the nearby wall, 11 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: his pajamas soaked in blood. He had been stabbed twelve times. 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: Despite her own injuries and the minuscule amount of Joel's 13 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: blood found on her shirt, authorities came up with a 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: theory that there was no intruder and that Julie was 15 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: responsible for the death of her own son. After a 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: bumbling tunnel vision investigation searching only for evidence of Julie's 17 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: killed and coming up empty, the prosecution resorted to using 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: blood spatter analysis, a known junk science. Experts testified anyway, 19 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: employing no actual demonstration that the bloodstains were consistent with 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: Julie wielding the murder weapon. Julie was sentenced to sixty 21 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: five years in prison and subjected to the abuse that 22 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: befalls a person who murdered their own child. Just two 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: years later, a serial child murderer facing the death penalty 24 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: for a nearly identical crime and who was linked to 25 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: many other similar crimes, confessed to being the masked man 26 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: from Julie's version of events. His confession was corroborated, and 27 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: she was acquitted at her retrial in two thousand and 28 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: six and formerly exonerated in twenty ten. All of this 29 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: was made possible with the help of the Center on 30 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, and, most notably, staff attorney 31 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: Karen Daniel, to whom this episode is lovingly and respectfully dedicated. 32 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: Karen was a pioneer in the innocentce movement and a 33 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: hero to many. She passed away on December twenty sixth, 34 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plum. Welcome 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. I'm your host 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: and I'm here today. With a woman who I am 37 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: really kind of in awe of, to put it mildly, 38 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: Julie Ray is a person of incredible integrity, strength, and purpose, 39 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: I would say. And she is an ax hoonnery from 40 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: Illinois who was wrongfully convicted of the murderer of her 41 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: own son. Julie, I'm very happy you're here. I'm obviously 42 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: sorry you have to be here, but I'm happy you're here. 43 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason. 44 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: And with Julie, it's a guy named Ron Safer. Ron 45 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: is a partner at Riley Safer Homes and Cancilla. And 46 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: Ron is a former Assistant US Attorney for the Northern 47 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: District of Illinois and moreover, he does work today for 48 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: the Center of Wrongful Convictions at the north Western University 49 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: Pritzker School of Law. And he's a colleague and a 50 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: dear friend of the late great Karen Daniel, who will 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: speak to you about to whom we'll pay tribute later 52 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: in this episode. So Ron, welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. 53 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here. 54 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a side because I'm going to go 55 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: back to the beginning. I read Julie's story when she 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: was on the cover of the New York Times magazine 57 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: and the headline was she was exonerated of the murder 58 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: of her son. Her life is still shattered and with 59 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: that it's one of the most powerful pictures I've ever seen. 60 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: Let me just say that, you can look it up yourselves, 61 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: but it was. There was so much pain and so much, 62 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: so much more to it than that in this photograph. 63 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: I just thought, this is someone I know. If I 64 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: can do anything to share her story or to help 65 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: in any way, I'm committed to do it. So Julie, 66 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: going back to the beginning, can you take us through 67 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: what your life was like before this happened. I mean, 68 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: you were a woman of tremendous potential and someone who 69 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: had accomplished a great deal of black belt in taekwondo, 70 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: a doctoral student. 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: Well, the black belt in taekwon was kind of a joke, 72 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: but it was something Joel and I did together which 73 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: was really fun. 74 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: But you were working towards your doctorate in educational psychology 75 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: right at the time that everything went completely haywire. Can 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: you just talk to us a little bit of how 77 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: you chose that field, and that's a hell of a 78 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: thing to take on when you're raising a child, you know, 79 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: as a single mom. 80 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: It was a perfect fit. It gave me time to 81 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: be there for Joel, a flexible schedule. School was a 82 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: good match for me. I really enjoyed graduate work and 83 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: the field was very interesting. I had wonderful mentors, and 84 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 2: I had a planned on a career in academia, which 85 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: would give me a chance to research things I loved 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: and was interested in. It would give me an excellent 87 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 2: environment for Joel. He was brilliant and intrigued with learning. 88 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: Joel and I enjoyed the life that we had at 89 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 2: the time. We had a lot of extracurricular activities and friends. 90 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: We had a great neighborhood and community where we lived. 91 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 2: We were doing a lot of fun things together and 92 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: just really looking forward to the next part of our 93 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: lives together. I remember things that Joel and I used 94 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: to like to do before everything changed. I remember sitting 95 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 2: by the door when it was storming and listening to 96 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 2: the rain while we were reading. And his favorite soup 97 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 2: is chicken noodle, so he had chicken noodle, and I 98 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: like tomatoes, so I had tomato. Just so many good 99 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: memories of all the things we were doing in our 100 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: lives at that time. I remember, I can't sing to 101 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: save my life, and Jall kind of inherited some of 102 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: that ability from me. But we would drive through and 103 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 2: get tacos from this one place. It was actually a 104 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: little tavern, was a very small talent, so we had 105 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 2: limited options. And this one night of the week we 106 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: had these great tacos and they had to drive through, 107 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 2: and then we would drive through and get a hot 108 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: pudge Sunday and we had done that. We were coming 109 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: home from taekwondo and we weren't singing. I don't know 110 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: what those songs in the Jungle, the Mighty Jungle, the 111 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: lines leaps tonight with the windows down, there was just 112 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: a really happy time. So much was going right, So 113 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: much was going right. 114 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: And Ron, if I can turn this over to you, 115 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: because I know this is borderline impossible for Julie to discuss, 116 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: but can you share some of the details of this case. 117 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: You know what happened and how this all went so 118 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: horribly wrong. 119 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: Sure, Julie and Joel were together in Julie's home and 120 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 3: in the middle of the night, four am, an intruder 121 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: came into the home. Julie didn't tear him. He is 122 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 3: somebody who has broken into homes and trailers across the 123 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 3: country without being heard. He was a serial murderer and 124 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 3: somebody very skilled at this, and so he was not heard. 125 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: He came into Joel's bedroom, stamped him to death, and 126 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: pushed him off the bed. Julie awoke to some sound 127 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 3: and she looked across from her bed into Joel's bedroom 128 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: and saw that he was not in the bed, and 129 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: so she woke herself up, started going towards his bedroom 130 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 3: and banged into somebody in the hallway. It was Tommy 131 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: Lynde Sells who she banged into, and the knife that 132 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: he held was found right there where Julie said they 133 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: banged into each other. He then sought to leave the house. 134 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 3: Julie grabbed onto his legs. Now again, Julie doesn't know 135 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 3: what's going on. All she knows is that Joel's not 136 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 3: in his bed. So you can imagine what a flood 137 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 3: of thoughts anybody would have at that time. So she 138 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 3: doesn't know what's going on, but she grabs onto this 139 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 3: guy for dear life. He drags her along the carpet, 140 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 3: and indeed she has rugburns on her knees from that 141 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: he breaks away get into the garage where there is 142 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: another door to the outside. Julie wants again grabs onto 143 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: him because he's having trouble getting out of that back door. 144 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 3: He breaks the glass to get out of the back door, 145 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 3: and Julie grabs onto him again for dear life, thinking 146 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 3: that he's the only link to Joel, and he drags 147 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: her along. She has scrapes on the top of her 148 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: feet from being dragged across the glass that is broken 149 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: from that door. He goes out into the backyard she's 150 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 3: holding on has grass stains from that. He then takes 151 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 3: her head, smashes it into the ground and walks off. 152 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: Julie immediately went to a neighbor's house and they called 153 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 3: the police, and the police found Joel's at that point 154 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 3: dying body. And from there, you know, of course, the 155 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 3: universe is changed, and everything that happened from that minute 156 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: that I started that narrative until Julie got out of 157 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 3: jail years later went wrong. 158 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: And this one, I mean, even for me, this one 159 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: is absolutely mind boggling because it not only didn't make sense, 160 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: it couldn't have made sense. You have nothing to pin 161 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: this on Julie, And in fact, there's every arrow pointing 162 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: directly at an intruder. Of course, back then, nobody knew 163 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: who it was. That comes clear later at the story 164 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: when he actually confesses. Right. 165 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 3: The case agent testified under my cross examination ultimately that everyone, 166 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: people who liked Julie, people who didn't like Julie, every 167 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 3: everyone told him that Julie and Joel had a good 168 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: and loving relationship. This was a quote. He could not 169 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 3: find anyone who would say that she raised her voice 170 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 3: to him, let alone her hand. So why would anybody 171 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: think that somebody who is a PhD candidate, an educational psychology, 172 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 3: with a good and loving relationship with their son, and 173 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: a good and caring person would do something like this. 174 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: And no prior history of violence or mental issues or 175 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: anything nice. Quite the opposite, actually, right, So, in order 176 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: to get to where we're trying to figure out how, 177 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if we'll ever really know why the 178 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: authorities in this case chose to pin this on Julie. 179 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: Julie had just lived through a scene from the worst 180 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: horror movie that anyone could ever see, every parent's worst nightmare. So, Julie, 181 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: if you can talk about it from there, you weren't 182 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: arrested then in there. This was something that took time 183 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: to wind its way through, and at some point they 184 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: decided to develop a narrative, maybe just because they couldn't 185 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: figure it out that involved you. But you've spoken to 186 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: me in the article about what your life was like 187 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of this horror. 188 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 2: Well, in defense of the police, I mean, I think 189 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: that they were poorly trained. I think that they didn't 190 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 2: know what to do. It was a small town, they 191 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 2: weren't used to handling these kinds of crime scenes. They 192 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: showed up mishandled the evidence horribly. I mean where there 193 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 2: were hair and fiber evidence opportunities, they lost them. They 194 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: actually ruined them. They picked up the quilt that Joel 195 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: had been under and took a picture of themselves destroying 196 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: evidence and then showed that picturing court as though they 197 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: were proud of it. That is the level of incompetence. 198 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 2: And they did not take fingerprints. They for whatever reason, 199 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: decided that because the way the glass broke and fell 200 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: on the floor or the ground, that it was broken 201 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: out like I told them, the man had broken the 202 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: glass out, that they didn't think that was reasonable, which 203 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 2: I don't know what is reasonable when you have somebody 204 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: coming into a home and killing someone. He did use 205 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: a knife from my home, and they didn't fingerprint around 206 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: the knife block that they took the knife from. I 207 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 2: guess they thought that. I really have no clue what 208 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: they thought. I just don't know. I thought they were 209 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: trying to solve the crime. I thought they were trying 210 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 2: to catch the person. I was in shock. 211 00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 4: I was. 212 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: In denial. When you're in shock, you look for ways 213 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: to fix things. I thought if I helped them, maybe 214 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: somehow we could fix what had happened. I don't know, 215 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: so I just talked to them and try to answer 216 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: all their questions. I had no idea that they could 217 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: possibly consider me a suspect. I mean, they actually came 218 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: to me at one point and said that they had 219 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: satellite photos, and I was thrilled to death because if 220 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: they had satellite photos, then we had evidence that we 221 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: could use to catch the person that did this. And 222 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: so we went back and forth for quite a long 223 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: time because there were no satellite photos, and they thought 224 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: they were going to catch me in some kind of 225 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: a lie or confuse me or trip me up or something. 226 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: So they kept moving the information around like no the 227 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: satellite photos are only of a certain part of the art, 228 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: and so I would say, oh, okay, well that's fine then, 229 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: you know, just broaden the scope of whatever you've got, 230 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: you know, or look at the different time periods. He 231 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: had to have moved through that part of the art 232 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: at some point, and they had no satellite photos at 233 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: that point. I had no idea cops would lie, you know. 234 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: I was looking for some real information. I mean, the 235 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: kind of person that does something like this is going 236 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: to do it again. 237 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: That's a key point. I'm glad you brought that up, 238 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: because as citizens, all of us want to see a 239 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: person like Tommy Linzel's apprehended and brought to justice as 240 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: quickly as possible, because everyone's at risk if not. And 241 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: of course we know from the case after case that 242 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: when the wrong person is pursued, ultimately arrested and then charged, 243 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: they stopped looking for the right person. In this case, 244 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: the right person was a serial killer named tommyland Sells. 245 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: And I think you're right to point out the training. 246 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: This was a small town, right, so it's reasonable to 247 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: assume that these officers didn't have a great deal of 248 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: experience investigating crimes as serious as this one. But the 249 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: fact that they didn't even dust the bedroom or the 250 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: butcher block, as you said, for fingerprints, that they didn't 251 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: preserve critical trace evidence from Joel's bedspread, the fact that 252 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: from the beginning they focused on you and any blood 253 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: that you might have tried to wash away, right they done. 254 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, septic tank, they dug up the septic tank. They 255 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: did all kinds of things, and they didn't bother to 256 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: give us this information at the time. But apparently the 257 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: first officer on the scene threw up on the scene. 258 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, and that exactly a time when you 259 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: should have been receiving nothing but care and support and they're, 260 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: you know, instead hunting you and trying to pin this 261 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: thing on you. 262 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: Okay, but let me inject a little bit of experience 263 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 3: into this. I was a prosecutor. These were not only 264 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: local police, they were the Illinois State Police. These people 265 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 3: had experience where this went off the rails, was where 266 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: cases all too often get off the rails. They did 267 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: not believe Julie from the first second, and often when 268 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 3: children are murdered, parents become suspects for whatever reason. These 269 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 3: officers jumped to a conclusion and then took steps that 270 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 3: resulted in confirmation of that conclusion. That is, they concluded 271 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 3: that Julie did it with no evidence, no reason, but 272 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 3: they did. Therefore, why fingerprint because her fingerprints are going 273 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 3: to be all over the place. Why preserve fibers because 274 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 3: her fibers are going to be all over the place. 275 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 3: And then they say, well, there's no evidence of an intruder. 276 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: Of course, there's no evidence of an intruder. You destroyed 277 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 3: it or did not capture any of the evidence of 278 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: the intruder. So when you view the evidence and then 279 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 3: either failed to create it or destroy the evidence that 280 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 3: is counter to the way you view it, then you 281 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 3: have a self fulfilling prophecy. And by the way, you 282 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 3: mentioned the investigation went on for years. What happened is 283 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: they investigated, investigated, investigated, got of course no evidence that 284 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 3: Julie committed the crime because she didn't. Asked her to 285 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 3: take a polygraph, She took a polygraph, passed the polygraph, 286 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 3: They investigated some more, asked her to take a second polygraph. 287 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 3: She passed a second polygraph. 288 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: The local prosecutor would not indict me. He said, there's 289 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 2: no evidence. I'm not going to indict her. So they 290 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: got a special prosecutor and brought him in. Ed Parkinson 291 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 2: was a state prosecutor. He came from the specials secutor's office, 292 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: a Pellet prosecutor's office. They indicted with a grand jury, 293 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: and he promised that he would tell the grand jury 294 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: if they asked that I had passed two polygraphs. Not 295 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 2: only did he not give them that information, he himself, 296 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: who was conducting the grand jury, testified by saying, when 297 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: they asked, did she take a polygraph? He said, out 298 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: of fairness to the defendant, I will not answer that question, 299 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: we won't give you that information, implying I had not 300 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: passed polygraphs. 301 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: Do you feel that at this point, and you're really 302 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: a perfect person to answer this, that the people in 303 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: position to make these decisions knew that they were prosecuting 304 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: an innocent woman. 305 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: I think that the prosecutors, if I had to guess, 306 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: didn't care. I think he certainly misled the jury and 307 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 3: didn't care one way or the other. The local police, 308 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if they knew, but they ignored all 309 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: of the evidence of the contrary. For example, Julie put 310 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: together a sketch of the intruder. The local bus station 311 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: person called the police and said, Hey, that guy was 312 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 3: just here. He purchased a bus ticket to win Amacca, Nevada, 313 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: a tiny town. He didn't have enough money. I gave 314 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 3: him the ticket anyway, I wanted him out of here. 315 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: He gave a horrible vibe and she called the police 316 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 3: and told him that where was Tommy Lynn Sells arrested 317 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 3: at one point Winnamucca, Nevada. What is between Winnemucca, Nevada 318 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 3: and where he bought that bus ticket? Springfield, Missouri where 319 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 3: two days after he murdered Joel, he murdered a little 320 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 3: girl named Stephanie Mahaney. The police knew that. The police 321 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 3: ignored that, unbelievably. It gets worse because even if you 322 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 3: totally ignored Tommy Lynn Sells, if you examine the physical evidence, 323 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 3: you realize that it prohibits Julie as a suspect, excludes her. 324 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 3: And one thing that the state used at her trial 325 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: was a blood spatter expert who testified in a way 326 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: that is unscrupulous, is a compliment. He took over the courtroom, 327 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 3: he splattered fake blood all over the courtroom, and then 328 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: he testified that the bloodines convicted Julie showed that she 329 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 3: committed the crime. It showed, in fact, exactly the opposite. 330 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 3: Julie had three transfer stains on her T shirt that 331 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 3: had Joel's blood on it, which were smudged. They were 332 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 3: not transferred by a hand. They were transferred by a 333 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 3: glove or something something that an intruder might wear. There 334 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 3: was blood spatter all of this room. Her T shirt 335 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 3: was Christine of blood spatter, and it was not cleaned. 336 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 3: They luminoled the house. There was no cleaning that went on. 337 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: And there was one blood spatter from Joel's blood on 338 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 3: Julie's T shirt. It was a ninety degree that is, 339 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 3: a drop from directly above it on her back. So 340 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 3: when could that have possibly happened? Obviously not if she 341 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: was committing the crime. Could not have come from Joel, 342 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 3: but easily could have come from Tommy Lynn Sells or 343 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 3: some unnamed intruder at that time who after he smashed 344 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 3: her head into the ground in the backyard, dropped a 345 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: bit of blood whatever it is. You know that she 346 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 3: could not have committed that crime from that one drop 347 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 3: of blood spatter. They put this expert on the stand 348 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 3: in the second trial, as the juror said, he ended 349 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 3: up after cross examination after telling the same lies ondirect 350 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: After cross examination, he ended up being a powerful defense 351 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 3: witness because blood spatter evidence proved beyond any reasonable doubt 352 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 3: that Julie was totally innocent of this crime. 353 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: And there are no eyewitnesses. Obviously, there's no forensic evidence. 354 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: As we've discussed, there's no motive. So the entire case 355 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: hinged on that tiny amount of blood on the T shirt. 356 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: And we know that blood spatter it's not conducted by scientists. 357 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: Typically is conducted by detectives or other law enforcement personnel 358 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: who may be trained in crime scene stuff, but they're 359 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: not trained in science, generally speaking. And the idea that 360 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: they can get up there with impunity and with authority 361 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: and make assertions to things like they did in this 362 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: case that are so damning when they actually don't know 363 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: what they're talking about or they're lying. It's another reform 364 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: that needs to be made so that this doesn't happen again. 365 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: Right, The blood evidence really was just as you described 366 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 3: in the first trial. It was distorted, it was lied about, 367 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 3: and unfortunately Julie's attorney at that time was not equipped 368 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 3: to take that expert on that and the unanswered question 369 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 3: of who does this, Who breaks into a home to 370 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 3: kill a child, leaves an adult essentially unharmed, and forgets 371 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 3: to bring a murder weapon, uses the weapon from the house, Well, 372 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 3: the answer is tommylind Sells. He's done that in half 373 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 3: a dozen cases across the country. But they close their 374 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 3: mind to the possibility that a person like that existed. 375 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 2: I think a big part of the reason that jury's 376 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 2: convict people wrongly, especially in a case like this, is 377 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 2: because it's terrifying to let this kind of a crime 378 00:25:54,680 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: go unanswered. And we resume that our detectives have done 379 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: their jobs and brought us the right people, that our 380 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: prosecutors are prosecuting sincerely, that they've done their jobs and 381 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: they've worked hard, and they know that they're prosecuting the 382 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: right people. That we can trust the people in the 383 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: stand when they're under oath, that they wouldn't lie. And sadly, 384 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: we are finding that we can't assume these things, and 385 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 2: that's a terrifying reality that's got to change. And if 386 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: we as a culture and as a country, as a 387 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 2: group of people, as jurors don't hold accountable prosecutors and 388 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 2: detectives and law enforcement, it won't change. 389 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 3: I would add, by the way, that at the time 390 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 3: we began Julie's case, I shared the naive assumptions that 391 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 3: Julie just said that we have to disabuse people of 392 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 3: that the prosecutor are there to do the right thing, 393 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 3: that the police are there to do the right thing. 394 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 3: That had been my experience. I was a prosecutor for 395 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 3: ten years. The Illinois States Attorney General supervised this. When 396 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 3: I saw the evidence in this case, I said, we 397 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 3: need to take this to the state's attorney general because 398 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 3: they will dismiss this case when they hear this. And 399 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: my colleagues, who were more experienced, said no, that's not 400 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 3: going to happen, but I insisted on doing it. We 401 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 3: went to the highest levels of the state's attorney general 402 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 3: and I said, look, here's the evidence. Here's what we're 403 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 3: going to say an opening statement. Here's how I'm going 404 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 3: to cross examine your expert forget about Tommy lind says 405 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 3: Julie could not have committed this crime. Here's why at trial, 406 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 3: you're going to be humiliated. We are going to absolutely 407 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 3: not only prove that you can't prove her guilty, we 408 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 3: will prove her innocent. Beyond any reasonable doubt. You should 409 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 3: not put her through this. Stop this now, And I 410 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,719 Speaker 3: was convinced they would. Obviously I was wrong. 411 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: When they arrested me and took me to the county jail, 412 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: I still thought, when they figure out they've made a mistake, 413 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 2: it's all going to be okay. When they did what 414 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 2: they did to me in that county jail, I realize 415 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: not only do they not care, they're fully aware you're innocent. 416 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: That's not an issue on the table. That's not what 417 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: this is about. People have no idea what's going on 418 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: when they think privatizing prisons is an option. Think about 419 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: what happens when we privatize military. We call that mercenaries. 420 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: We take the heart out of the military, we take 421 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 2: the ethics out of it. We have mercenaries. Think about 422 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: what you're doing when you take the value and the 423 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 2: concern for rehabilitation out of correctional systems, you privatize that 424 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 2: and make that a business where the bottom line is 425 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: only money. My god, what is going to happen to 426 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: our country when that is a done deal. 427 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: Let's go back to this sham trial that you experience 428 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: when the jury goes out, when they came back, did 429 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: you still hold on to that belief that justice would 430 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: be done? 431 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: You're talking about the first trial. 432 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, when the jury came back, you. 433 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: Hope and trust that the truth will come out and 434 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: that they will have heard it, because you know you're innocent. 435 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: But they didn't. Obviously they didn't, and they did find 436 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: you guilty and convicted you a first degree murder and 437 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: since to sixty five years in prison. At that point, 438 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,719 Speaker 1: how did you even remain sane? Now you're looking at 439 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: spending the rest of your life in prison. Sixty five 440 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: years is very unlikely to survive that, but you stayed 441 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: strong to fight. And then along comes the team from 442 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern, Karen Daniel and 443 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: her team of Avengers. Right, how did you first come 444 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: in contact with them? And what did that mean to 445 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: you when you found out that you were going to 446 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: be represented by this well, let's just call it what 447 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: it was. I mean, she was a legend. 448 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: First, I want to say something about the time I 449 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: was in there and what happened with the conviction. And 450 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: I remember getting a letter from one of the jurors saying, 451 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: can you please forgive me for convicting you, and I 452 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: remember one of the jurors saying something about I just 453 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: needed her to look me in the eye and tell 454 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: me she didn't do it. And my attorney at my 455 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: first child would not let me take the stand I 456 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: wanted to, but he wouldn't let me wow, which was 457 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 2: very frustrating because obviously I would have been able to, 458 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: you know, tell them, you know, I didn't do it, 459 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: and what had happened, and all those kinds of things, 460 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: and you know, getting that letter and having someone say, 461 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 2: you know, I'm so sorry I can't sleep at night. 462 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: Can you please forgive me? And I remember thinking, well, 463 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: you know, that makes two of us that can't sleep 464 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: at night, but for different reasons. There's just this futility 465 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: that you feel about life. When something like this happens. 466 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 2: It takes away your faith in humanity. And that's why 467 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: I wanted to answer these questions together, because when Karen 468 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: told me that there were going to take the case, 469 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: I didn't know all of what that meant. But over 470 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: time I came to understand what it meant, and I 471 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: got my sense of confidence and humanity back through each 472 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: hearing and hug through every time they sat beside me. 473 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: When She told the judge she would be proud to 474 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: have me as her daughter, which she wasn't old enough 475 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: to have me as her daughter. She would have been 476 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: my sister and we became I mean, she did for 477 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: me the things the sister would have done. 478 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: The team from Center of Unwrawful Convictions, again led by Karen, 479 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: they really did the work that the authorities should have 480 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: done and could have done in the first place. Right, 481 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: they found the killer, They got a confession. Can you 482 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: talk about how the whole thing on raph. 483 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 3: Really the identity of Tommy lynd Cells happened by an accident. 484 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 3: There was a twenty twenty episode on Julie's case and 485 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 3: it said, essentially, this is weird. This woman, you know again, 486 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 3: had a good and loving relationship with her son. There 487 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 3: was no reason in the world she would do this. 488 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 3: There was no hard evidence. On the other hand, who 489 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 3: does this? So it was just weird. And nobody breaks 490 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 3: into a home to kill a kid, leaves an adult 491 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 3: essentially not mortally wounded, and forgets to bring a murder weapon. 492 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: A woman who was writing a book on a Texas 493 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 3: death row inmate Tommy lynd Sells wrote to him and said, 494 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 3: I just heard somebody say on TV, nobody does this. 495 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 3: We know that's not true, because she knew as he 496 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: did that he had done this time and time again. 497 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 3: He wrote back and said, now this is six years 498 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 3: after the fact. Was it in Illinois? Was it two 499 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 3: days before? Stephanie Mahaney? And the answer, of course was 500 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: yes and yes. And she said why do you ask 501 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 3: and he says, because I did it. And then these 502 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 3: prosecutors went down and they took a tape recorded confession, 503 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 3: an eighty six page tape recorded confession. Now this is 504 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 3: a drug adult guy who had committed fifty murders across 505 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 3: the United States. So we got what the subdivision looked 506 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 3: like wrong, He got what the outside of the house 507 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 3: looked like wrong. He got a number of details wrong. 508 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 3: But he described the conflict with Julie in exactly the 509 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 3: same terms as she did. He described where he got 510 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 3: the knife exactly right. He described Joel's bedroom exactly as 511 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 3: it was. But they ignored all that. Northwestern came along 512 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 3: Karen Daniel, who was easily the most brilliant legal mind, 513 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 3: the most fearless lawyer with whom I have ever worked. 514 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 3: She put all of this together. She put together the 515 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 3: corroborating evidence that I described earlier about the bus terminal, 516 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 3: about the fact that he had been arrested in Winnemaka, 517 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 3: and all of the things that gave teeth to this, 518 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 3: and she wrapped it up in a beautiful package and 519 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 3: filed a habeas petition. They vacated the conviction really on 520 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 3: grounds that had little to do with any of that. 521 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: They vacated the conviction because the prosecutors had been pointed 522 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 3: pursuing to the wrong statute, which is kind of a technicality. 523 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 3: But at the same time, they had all of this 524 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 3: evidence in front of them, so they vacated the conviction. 525 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 3: Julie is free for a minute, and then they rearrested. 526 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 2: That's one of the fascinating things to me about our 527 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 2: court system and our legal system. They specifically said, this 528 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 2: is not about Tommy Lindzell's you know, our court system 529 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 2: works that way. It's not about this, i e. It 530 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: is about this. It's not about what's logical, it's not 531 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: about necessarily what's true, and it's certainly not necessarily about 532 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 2: what's right. It's about legal precedent, it's about technicalities, and 533 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 2: so it really is a game. It really is a puzzle. 534 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 2: It really is a whole different language. And that's why 535 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: if you don't have the right attorneys, you don't have 536 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 2: a chance. It doesn't matter if you're innocent or not. 537 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 2: At least that's what I've learned. And if I hadn't 538 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 2: had Karen and Ron and Jeff and the attorneys that 539 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: I had, I would be locked up in a very 540 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 2: very bad situation for a very very long time if 541 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: I were still alive. 542 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: And it's also quite shocking that the state chose to 543 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: retry you, but they did. By this point, everybody knew 544 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: you were innocent. I mean, I don't know if Iron 545 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: would disagree with that, but I think that it's fair 546 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: to say that this was now a game, right, This 547 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: was about protecting the wrongful conviction. 548 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean even the prosecutor he offered me 549 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: twenty years due ten both trials. And both trials, I said, look, 550 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 2: if you think I'm guilty, you need to be giving 551 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 2: me the destines because whoever committed this crime needs to 552 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 2: have capital punishment. That's what needs to happen here. This 553 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 2: is not the kind of crime that you give somebody 554 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 2: twenty years do ten for That's just an insult. 555 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: To Joel. 556 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 2: And for him to say, oh, this woman's evil, which 557 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 2: he went on record as saying after I was acquitted. 558 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 2: But to have offered me twenty years due ten, that's 559 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 2: just well, it doesn't equate well. 560 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 3: And they did know at that point that Julie was innocent. 561 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 3: They said at the bond hearing, the first appearance that 562 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 3: we had on this case. First time I stood in 563 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 3: front of the judge said, judge, you have to let 564 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 3: her out on bond, because you yourself said this was 565 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 3: a very thin, circumstantial case. That first of all, she 566 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 3: appeared at every pre trial hearing and the trial. Second, 567 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,439 Speaker 3: this circumstantial case went off on one unanswered question. Who 568 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 3: does this? Now? Not only do we know who does this, 569 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 3: but he's confessed. And the judge turned to the prosecutor 570 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,439 Speaker 3: and said, yeah, what about this confession thing? And here 571 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 3: are the words that the state uttered over a decade ago, 572 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 3: but they are burned in my memory. This is almost verbatim, o, judge, 573 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 3: don't worry about Tommy lynn Sells. No one will ever 574 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 3: hear about him, because, first of all, Texas will not 575 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 3: honor an out of state subpoena for a death row inmate, 576 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 3: which is true, by the way, because they are afraid 577 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 3: that he will go to a non death penalty state 578 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,479 Speaker 3: and they won't get him back to kill him. And 579 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 3: we immunized him for the death penalty. So it is 580 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 3: not a statement against penal interest. It is hearsay no 581 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 3: jury will ever hear about Tommy lyn Cells. I said, 582 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 3: wait a minute, Judge, I do not hear the representative 583 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 3: of the people of the state of Illinois to be 584 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 3: telling you that he intends to try this woman for 585 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 3: essentially her life while concealing from the jury the fact 586 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 3: that he took a confession from a serial murderer that 587 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 3: he knows is corroborated by independent evidence. I don't hear 588 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 3: the representative of the people of the state of Illinois 589 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 3: to be saying that. But if you hear him to 590 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 3: be saying that, you ought to say not in my courtroom. 591 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 3: This is not happening. Judge looked at me, looked at him, 592 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 3: and then imposed a significant bond. So everybody knew that 593 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 3: Julie was innocent at that point, and it was, unfortunately, 594 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 3: as Julie describes it, a game. 595 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: So the retrial goes forward. This time it's all out 596 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: in the open they're not able to railroad her the 597 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: way they did the first time. This time, Julie at 598 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: the stand and proclaimed your innocence, and of course, ultimately 599 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: the jury saw through the bullshit, they're bullshit and returned 600 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: a not guilty verdict. And I've read that your knees 601 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: buckled in the courtroom. Is that? Is that right? When 602 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: the when the verdict was announced. 603 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 2: I fell. Yes, I don't remember falling. I mean, I 604 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 2: know I did, but I don't remember that part. What 605 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 2: I remember is looking at Ron and him looking at me, 606 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 2: and I was just really, really, really thankful. 607 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I remember about that day. First 608 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 3: of all, we were at lunch and Julie said, so, 609 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 3: in your experience as a criminal defense attorney, how long 610 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 3: does it take the jury in cases like this? I said, well, 611 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 3: when the jury comes back, I'll let you know, because 612 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 3: then I will have one criminal defense case. She said, what, 613 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 3: You've never done this before. 614 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 2: Don't you sound excited or worried? I know I didn't. 615 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,919 Speaker 4: Don't you think you should have told me that? I said, well, 616 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 4: I guess, I said, no. Do you feel underrepresented? But 617 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 4: we were, we were in the courtroom. 618 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 3: And look, there was no evidence. It was overwhelming. There 619 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 3: was no chance, and yet you're standing there. And I 620 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 3: remember waiting for the verdict, thinking, I don't know what 621 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 3: tomorrow looks like. If they say guilty, I don't know 622 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 3: how to go on in life. So I can't imagine 623 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 3: what Julie is thinking right now. And when they said 624 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 3: not guilty. I turned to Julie. Her knees did buckle. 625 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 3: I went to catch her missed, but we picked her up, 626 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 3: you know, and we all hugged. It was just an 627 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 3: enormous relief that finally she could put this aspect of 628 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 3: the nightmare behind her, she would never again be put 629 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 3: in that kind of danger. 630 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: For all the years I've been doing this, and I'm 631 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: constantly Everyone who knows me knows I'm always out there 632 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: talking to strangers about this cause people will say to me, well, well, 633 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: there's two questions they ask. One is was the prosecutor 634 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: disciplined in any way? And the second is, tell me 635 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: the person who suffered so much the x HOGNERI was 636 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: compensated by the state in your case. We know the 637 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: answer the first question is no, as it is in 638 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: ninety nine point of all cases. And the answer the 639 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: second question I think you have. 640 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 2: To look at compensation broadly to answer that question. There's 641 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 2: a lot of different kinds of riches in life. I 642 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 2: think I appreciate life more and I have been blessed 643 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 2: with some of the most amazing people in the world 644 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 2: through this experience. I think that there are lessons that 645 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 2: you learn when you walk a desperately lonely path where 646 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 2: your shadow is your only company, and there is a 647 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,439 Speaker 2: homecoming when you find out that the world is full 648 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 2: of wonderful people. They've just been hidden from you for 649 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 2: a while and you thought they were gone. So yes, 650 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 2: I've been compensated. 651 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:02,720 Speaker 3: So you just heard the grace and generosity and strength 652 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 3: of character and just uniquely wonderful spirit that Julie has 653 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 3: to have survived with that kind of an attitude and 654 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 3: that kind of a desire to help others. The answer 655 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 3: to your question is no, the state didn't compensate Julie. 656 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 3: You know, it is unthinkable what she has had to bear, 657 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 3: and the way she has bored it is equally unfathomable, 658 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 3: but diametrically opposed way, in a wonderful way. And the 659 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 3: way we're gonna stop this is for people to stop 660 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:53,280 Speaker 3: electing prosecutors who only care about statistics and not justice. 661 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 3: It's going to be to have people stop electing judges 662 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 3: who are off on crime and more interested in justice. 663 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,839 Speaker 3: It's going to be people who take their oath as 664 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 3: jurors seriously and not have the naive presumption because you 665 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,799 Speaker 3: can't have it in today's world. There's too much evidence 666 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 3: that people are wrongfully drawn into these courtrooms. And to 667 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 3: have jurors who have an open mind and not just 668 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 3: listen to the prosecution. And people like Karen Daniel devoted 669 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 3: her life to doing just that, to opening people's eyes 670 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 3: time and time and time again, to opening the judge's eyes, 671 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 3: to open the Port of Appeals eyes, the Supreme Court's eyes, 672 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 3: juror's eyes, citizens' eyes. Through her indomitable spirit, through her 673 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 3: incredible intellect and energy. And we need more of those, 674 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 3: and we need more Julie's in the world without the 675 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 3: nightmare preceding it, and we'll get them. 676 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 2: Thank you Jason so much for having the show and 677 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 2: taking the time to do the research you do, and 678 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 2: I would just really beg people to do. You know 679 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 2: what Karen did. She didn't just see problems. She went 680 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,120 Speaker 2: about finding solutions. One little endeavor at a time, and 681 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 2: you just put all those things together and you start 682 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 2: solving the big problems. And again, just be informed. When 683 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,320 Speaker 2: you know things, when you share information, when you educate others. 684 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,919 Speaker 2: These things can't continue to happen because people won't allow 685 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:54,280 Speaker 2: them to. Information is very, very powerful, So be informed. 686 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,719 Speaker 1: Well, that's very well said, and I appreciate you. Know, 687 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 1: you really are doing my for me because you speak 688 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: so eloquently about the problems and the solutions, and I 689 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: think we're moving as a society in that direction. There's 690 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: been a number of positive developments recently, too numerous to 691 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: get into now. And of course also check out Center 692 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: for Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern who do such wonderful work, 693 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,759 Speaker 1: and of course the Edocence Project Innocence Project dot org. 694 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: Now clothing arguments. Usually I asked for closing arguments, but 695 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: you guys already did them. I think at this point 696 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,799 Speaker 1: all I can say is, Wow, I'm really honored to 697 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 1: have had both of you on the show. I think 698 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 1: the work that you've done and you continue to do 699 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: ron is exemplary and heroic. And Julie, I said it 700 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,399 Speaker 1: before at the beginning of the show, and I'll say 701 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: it again. You are a hero to me and to 702 00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: so many others. And I don't even have the right 703 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,279 Speaker 1: words to say. You know what your perseverance and what 704 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 1: your The best word is grace, as Ron said, means 705 00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:59,719 Speaker 1: to all of us. It makes us all want to 706 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: fight harder, longer, and better and to help people in 707 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: your situation and to help prevent others from falling into 708 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: this trap going forward. So thank you just for being you, 709 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,600 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining us on Wrongful Conviction. This 710 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,359 Speaker 1: has been an amazing experience for. 711 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 2: Thank you Jason so much so. 712 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: Now it's with a heavy heart that I want to 713 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 1: offer a tribute to one of the true legends in 714 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,000 Speaker 1: the field of writing wrongful convictions, a woman who we 715 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,680 Speaker 1: lost too soon in a tragic accident a very short 716 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: time ago, and that person is Karen Daniel. Karen was 717 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 1: the director of the Center for Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern Moreover. 718 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: She was a warrior. She's described by so many different 719 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: people who worked with her, who loved her, who were 720 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,920 Speaker 1: represented by her as someone who was tough as nails 721 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: and at the same time was warm and soft and 722 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:10,799 Speaker 1: was a hugger and someone who cared deeply about the 723 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,799 Speaker 1: people that she represented, and that went far beyond the 724 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 1: courtroom into all aspects of her life. So I think 725 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 1: today we have two people who were directly touched by 726 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,800 Speaker 1: her in different ways, and I can't find the right words. 727 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 1: So I'm going to turn it over to you. I 728 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: guess we'll save Julie. We'll save you for last, and 729 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:39,560 Speaker 1: let Ron first, please share your remembrances of this wonderful woman. 730 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 1: Karen Daniel. 731 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 3: Karen was an angel who was lent to us from 732 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 3: heaven for a two short period of time. She was 733 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:57,959 Speaker 3: a fierce, fearless, incredibly persuasive lawyer, and she was also 734 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 3: a teacher. She taught countless students about what is important 735 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:08,400 Speaker 3: in a law degree. She taught me everything that I 736 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,760 Speaker 3: know about wrongful conviction cases. I had never done any 737 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 3: I was a prosecutor in a previous life and then 738 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 3: a corporate lawyer. She had tremendous patience, she had tremendous intellect. 739 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:26,399 Speaker 3: Anything that I do, anything that her students do, are 740 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 3: all because of what Karen taught us. And you know, 741 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 3: the ripple effect of the pebbles that Karen tossed into 742 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,960 Speaker 3: the ocean with all of us would cause a title wave. 743 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 3: She is one of the few people who we can 744 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 3: appropriately use the term hero. Karen changed the world for 745 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 3: the better. 746 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 1: Julie over to you. 747 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,960 Speaker 2: Karen's story is the stuff that legends are made of. 748 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:10,160 Speaker 2: She was quiet, kind of like the sun is. She 749 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:16,840 Speaker 2: could make things grow. She was there in ways that mattered. 750 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 2: She wasn't always just saying she would do things to 751 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 2: make the world a better place, but she was doing them. 752 00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 2: She helped exoneries with legal matters beyond their exoneration. She 753 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:36,400 Speaker 2: would help with their medical emergencies, with personal tragedies, family events, celebrations. 754 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 2: She was there when they made memories, and she was 755 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 2: there when their heart was breaking. She was the one 756 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,239 Speaker 2: that walked you to the cab when everybody else had 757 00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,360 Speaker 2: already gone home from the party or was still partying. 758 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,359 Speaker 2: She made sure you were safe getting from here to there, 759 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,440 Speaker 2: when you were of otherwise been alone on the road. 760 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 2: Karen was there. She was the sister that he didn't have, 761 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:08,960 Speaker 2: the best friend you always wanted. She wasn't about money. 762 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,120 Speaker 2: She was better than money could ever hire or buy. 763 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 2: She was priceless and the changes and the things that 764 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 2: we all wish we could do in life, she did 765 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 2: and She passed that on to a lot of people, 766 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,520 Speaker 2: the desire to do that, the methods for how to 767 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,480 Speaker 2: do it. And I know that all of us who 768 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,600 Speaker 2: were blessed enough to know her, who are struggling still 769 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 2: with losing her or trying to figure out how in 770 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 2: the world we're gonna do something to prove that we 771 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 2: deserved having had her in her life. 772 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,879 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Thank you, Julie, and thank you un You're 773 00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 1: welcome Karen wherever you are. You're gone but never forgotten, 774 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: and we're sending our respect and appreciation your way. Don't 775 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,719 Speaker 1: forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get 776 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,600 Speaker 1: your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor 777 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,120 Speaker 1: to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join 778 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,520 Speaker 1: me in supporting this very important cause and helping to 779 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,560 Speaker 1: prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to 780 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,360 Speaker 1: learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to 781 00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,680 Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The 782 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,280 Speaker 1: music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated 783 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 784 00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,800 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. 785 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,200 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava 786 00:54:50,239 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one