Speaker 1: Welcome to Go ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi em Eli
Speaker 1: went Worth, and you're listening to Go ask Ali? Where
Speaker 1: this season I'm asking the question, how do you grow
Speaker 1: a teenager in a pandemic? We are going to talk
Speaker 1: today about growing an l g b t Q teen
Speaker 1: in a pandemic. There's a lot to kind of unpack
Speaker 1: with this subject. Um, My curiosity is more about what
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community is dealing with in general, and how
Speaker 1: the pandemic kind of magnifies it. Today, I'm very excited
Speaker 1: about my guest, Stephen Russell, and his resume goes on
Speaker 1: for pages. His credentials include working at the University of
Speaker 1: Texas at Austin as a director for the College of
Speaker 1: Natural Sciences School of Human Ecology. He served as past
Speaker 1: chair of the Board of Directors of the Sexuality Information
Speaker 1: and Education Council of the United States Sex Said for
Speaker 1: Social Change. Finally, he's also part of the LGBTQ community
Speaker 1: and a father to a teen Stephen, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being here. I'm really glad to be here.
Speaker 1: You kind of focus on relationships between LGBTQ teenagers and
Speaker 1: their families. Um, you're constantly working very hard to change policy.
Speaker 1: Before we get to that, I want to go through
Speaker 1: identification because I think a lot of parents need to understand.
Speaker 1: I have two teenage daughters who have informed my husband
Speaker 1: and I they are sis, meaning they identify their gender
Speaker 1: with their sexuality. Is that correct? Their gender with their sex?
Speaker 1: That was a sign of birth? Yes, there sex, thank you. See,
Speaker 1: this is why we're gonna have a lot to go through. Um,
Speaker 1: So let's talk about sexual orientation because that is that
Speaker 1: is different than uh, sexual identity and gender identity and expression. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So sex is what we are assigned at birth, male
Speaker 1: or female, and is based on biological characteristics or traits. Um,
Speaker 1: it is actually a little It is more complicated than
Speaker 1: male or female in human physiology anatomy. We understand now
Speaker 1: there's much more actual human variation in sexual characteristics and
Speaker 1: biological sex than we thought. We understand much more now
Speaker 1: about ideas about intersex, meaning the space between and people
Speaker 1: who whose biological physiological sex is not consistent with our
Speaker 1: ideas about you know, exclusive maleness and exclusive females. And
Speaker 1: this is different from when you hear people say yes,
Speaker 1: I was born a boy, but I don't feel like
Speaker 1: a boy. I feel like a girl. I know this
Speaker 1: sounds very elementary right now, but I do want for
Speaker 1: people listening to this to really understand terms and uh
Speaker 1: labels when we go into these discussions. Right that is
Speaker 1: the manifestation of gender identity when as a young person
Speaker 1: feels that their gender identity, that their gender expression, the
Speaker 1: way they understand themselves in the world is either consistent
Speaker 1: with or not consistent with the sex that is on
Speaker 1: their birth certificate or that is their biological physiological self.
Speaker 1: And so when your kids tell you what we're ciss,
Speaker 1: it means that they understand their feminine identity, their female identity,
Speaker 1: and that's consistent with um the way that they were
Speaker 1: presented to the world and understood by their pediatricians and
Speaker 1: parents when they were when they were born and when
Speaker 1: they were growing up. And and of course, for some kids,
Speaker 1: if that is inconsistent, if they grow up feeling that
Speaker 1: there's a mismatch, that it didn't it's not quite right
Speaker 1: that they were surprised to find out when they were
Speaker 1: three that they were a boy when they really thought
Speaker 1: they were a girl, or you know, felt like a girl,
Speaker 1: or the other way around that is when we think
Speaker 1: of and understand transgender, although transgender is not necessarily what
Speaker 1: people call themselves. Necessarily, sometimes it is, but often transgender
Speaker 1: is a description of the into identity rather than the
Speaker 1: person's self expression of their gender. Yeah, because I found
Speaker 1: that in my little bubble that parents and teachers have
Speaker 1: a tendency to not identify the correct way. A lot
Speaker 1: of times I'll hear people say, oh, yeah, there's we
Speaker 1: have three trans students in our class, and they're actually
Speaker 1: not trans, you know, they're uh, non binary or there.
Speaker 1: You know, there are other things. But people, I think
Speaker 1: more and more get confused by these identifying factors, um,
Speaker 1: which actually causes the youth more trouble than they're what
Speaker 1: they're actually experiencing anyway. Yeah, and I think what's happened
Speaker 1: in the last decade, the last even five years, is
Speaker 1: that young people are helping us understand ourselves and so um,
Speaker 1: you know, transgender literally means you know, changing moving gender.
Speaker 1: And there are of kids who are now saying the
Speaker 1: binary the sort of male or female doesn't apply to
Speaker 1: me at all. So it's not that I'm transgender, It's
Speaker 1: just that I reject the idea that I can only
Speaker 1: express myself in a masculine way that's consistent with being
Speaker 1: called a boy at birth. I want to be something
Speaker 1: that is neither boy nor girl. Is just me. There
Speaker 1: are increasing numbers of young people who are asserting that
Speaker 1: for themselves. And then it's complicated because for many trans kids,
Speaker 1: they view themselves not as trans, but as a boy
Speaker 1: or a girl that is different from how they were
Speaker 1: sided at birth. So there are you know, kids who say, like,
Speaker 1: the truth is, I'm just a girl. Even though I
Speaker 1: was born as a boy and people understood me as
Speaker 1: a male, I'm a girl and so um so, I
Speaker 1: mean they think one of the you know, existential adventures
Speaker 1: that were in the middle of kind of in terms
Speaker 1: of the society understanding at being open to and understanding
Speaker 1: how young people see themselves and want to see themselves. Um,
Speaker 1: and what we know from developed all sciences that honoring
Speaker 1: that is is what's important for young people and their
Speaker 1: well being. Do you think that that teenagers know at birth?
Speaker 1: This is really interesting and complicated, And I think that
Speaker 1: that's that's why I'm asking you, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: still a lot to be learned on that. I'm going
Speaker 1: to say something that is kind of a rough generalization,
Speaker 1: but uh that that gender identity and understanding of yourself
Speaker 1: with respect to gender is really something that happens really
Speaker 1: young and very early. And we've known this for you know,
Speaker 1: sixty years. We've known that, you know, sex dimorphism, that
Speaker 1: toddlers begin to understand what you know, what's what are
Speaker 1: girl things and what are boy things? And they can
Speaker 1: point out, you know, anatomy, and they can they can learn, oh,
Speaker 1: I am a boy or I am a girl, especially
Speaker 1: if they are sis gender, and all of those things
Speaker 1: align and are simple and for them to understand. There's
Speaker 1: pretty good at understanding that gender identity develops in childhood.
Speaker 1: The difference is that sexual orientation and identity. UM. There's
Speaker 1: kind of a mix of people who will say, I've
Speaker 1: always known that I was different with respect to my desires, attraction,
Speaker 1: the people that I want to be emotionally, romantically and
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately sexually involved with. I always I've always
Speaker 1: known that was different. Um. And then there are folks
Speaker 1: for whom that emerges around the time of the changes
Speaker 1: that we think of as puberty, so around the sort
Speaker 1: of second decade when our bodies and minds begin to
Speaker 1: really change that brings up for people an understanding of
Speaker 1: their gender, their sexuality. The thing that's important about the
Speaker 1: adolescents period, it's so embedded in our family relationships, our
Speaker 1: relationships with our peers and the larger world and what's
Speaker 1: happening in the larger society that um, you know, the
Speaker 1: adventure for the social and developmental scientists is disentangling all
Speaker 1: that and trying to understand what's going on for kids.
Speaker 1: But it's clear that understanding of sexual identity has to
Speaker 1: be understood adolescence as a product of relationships kids have,
Speaker 1: the schools there are, but also the social and historical
Speaker 1: moment they're in. I would imagine that, Um, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of pushback with people that aren't as sort of
Speaker 1: self actualized about this world that they say, well, they're
Speaker 1: too young, it's a phase. Uh, they're too young to
Speaker 1: know what they want. Um. You know, these are all
Speaker 1: things you hear out in our culture. Um, as well
Speaker 1: as particularly kids that want to transition. What do you
Speaker 1: think about that? Yeah, this is when I think the
Speaker 1: thoughtful and caring medical psychological professionals and families need to
Speaker 1: really think with a child about what's best for them.
Speaker 1: Because I don't think that there is a single answer.
Speaker 1: What I do think we know now there are um
Speaker 1: you know, there have been gender clinics in the Netherlands
Speaker 1: for much longer than in the United States, and you know,
Speaker 1: starting about five years ago, we had the first studies
Speaker 1: that tracked people long enough. UH, and the very first
Speaker 1: humrital interventions are pretty clearly showing in adulthood, meaning following
Speaker 1: people for you know, a decade or more. UH, people
Speaker 1: who transition, who are who are able to transition and
Speaker 1: allowed to transition early in life have adult body satisfaction,
Speaker 1: emotional health, physical health that is equivalent to everybody else
Speaker 1: in the general population. That to me is the most
Speaker 1: important kind of information that we need, because we're still
Speaker 1: a decade away from really having that kind that level
Speaker 1: of knowledge for you know, robust, diverse populations around the
Speaker 1: globe and especially here at home in the United States,
Speaker 1: and it's complicated, especially for families. I think balancing some
Speaker 1: kids really have significant emotional need to express themselves in
Speaker 1: a differently gendered way. For those kids, I think that
Speaker 1: compelling emotional need may outweigh concerns that we have that
Speaker 1: are real because we don't have aging people who had
Speaker 1: hormone replacement therapy. That's not a thing we've had, so
Speaker 1: we really don't know what the physiological long term influences
Speaker 1: might be overall, Right, balancing all those things, I think
Speaker 1: is something that families need to think through carefully and
Speaker 1: and increasingly there's a conversation about like how much self
Speaker 1: determination you can children have, And we know pretty well
Speaker 1: every kid is different, but you know, age thirteen fourteen
Speaker 1: is when we're pretty clear that the reasoning function of
Speaker 1: the cognitive capacity of the brain has the same reasoning
Speaker 1: capacity as an adult brain, and we can understand what
Speaker 1: it means to have a future orientation. I mean, I
Speaker 1: would think it's it's a lot for a thirteen year
Speaker 1: old that knows they want to transition and to have
Speaker 1: to wait till quote unquote adulthood is many years of pain, right, um,
Speaker 1: And if we're talking about pharmacological intervention um postponing, that
Speaker 1: could really make a difference for the rest of their
Speaker 1: life in terms of their physical expression and movement in
Speaker 1: the world. And that is significant. You know, the question
Speaker 1: of breast development or facial development really makes the difference
Speaker 1: for how you live in the world. Imagining at thirteen,
Speaker 1: what it's going to be like at sixteen is a
Speaker 1: really big deal. And so those are valid concerns for
Speaker 1: us to help our kids think through and for parents
Speaker 1: to try to anticipate. We're going to take a short
Speaker 1: break and we'll be right back. Welcome back with more
Speaker 1: go ask gallei um discussed with me because I know
Speaker 1: you've spoken about the school to prison pipeline. What do
Speaker 1: you mean by that school to prison pipeline is the
Speaker 1: ways that we systematically exclude with some kids from education
Speaker 1: that makes them vulnerable to and is literally a pipeline
Speaker 1: into the juvenile justice system. And starting about five years ago,
Speaker 1: scholars started to be concerned about the ways that we
Speaker 1: saw other forms of not fitting in with what it
Speaker 1: means to be uh quote good student in the context
Speaker 1: of you know, thirty kids in the classroom American junior
Speaker 1: high in high schools. We've known this actually for a
Speaker 1: while about kids with learning challenges that they're more likely
Speaker 1: to experience exclusionary discipline and to be in the justice system.
Speaker 1: Uh it turns out we see the same kinds of
Speaker 1: patterns for LGBTQ kids, and our studies of show that
Speaker 1: that for girls it's often because they're perceived as aggressive.
Speaker 1: For boys, it's because they're putting on having makeup, being
Speaker 1: gender different and being told you can't wear now polished.
Speaker 1: If girls can wear now polish, why can't boys were
Speaker 1: in their polish. But you know, a boy getting suspended
Speaker 1: and then being on the street and getting picked up
Speaker 1: for being truant and then kind of juvenile setting, they're
Speaker 1: more likely to be teased, you know, or worse. And
Speaker 1: so kids. Lgbt Q kids are more likely to be
Speaker 1: the target of victimization being in a fight. You may
Speaker 1: not want to tell the principle they were for the community,
Speaker 1: right right, right right, calling me a fag when they
Speaker 1: were hitting me, because maybe you're not ready to confront
Speaker 1: about yourself. Yeah, of course you're certainly not going to
Speaker 1: come out to your principle first. But and also gay students,
Speaker 1: if they express um their sexuality by holding hands or kissing,
Speaker 1: they're more likely to be suspended than kind of your
Speaker 1: heterosexual holding hands were making out. So do you feel
Speaker 1: like the LGBTQ students are set up to fail right
Speaker 1: now in our country? I say, I think it depends
Speaker 1: on where they live and what kind of you know,
Speaker 1: what we know makes a big difference. The thing that's
Speaker 1: encouraging is that we have so much new research in
Speaker 1: the last decade to really document, for example, with respect
Speaker 1: to schools, we know that inclusive nondiscrimination policies make such
Speaker 1: a huge difference for just the setting of schools, training teachers.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. Most teachers really do want to do
Speaker 1: what's right for children. They're there because they care and
Speaker 1: they want kids to thrive. And a lot of teachers
Speaker 1: and parents too don't get it. Gender regulation is actually
Speaker 1: undermining kids, not helping them to fit in and be safe.
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you Obama had directives for schools
Speaker 1: to protect transgender students. Are they still in place or
Speaker 1: have they under this administration? Quality that was that was
Speaker 1: an early thing that was resented from the US Department
Speaker 1: of Education. Okay, And the other thing I've read the
Speaker 1: smaller schools have a tendency to be more compassionate. That uh,
Speaker 1: the smaller the community. UM have you found has a
Speaker 1: tendency to be more empathetic and more inclusive. Um have
Speaker 1: you found that in your studies to be true? I
Speaker 1: think it's contingent on leadership and on the things like
Speaker 1: policies and strategies and schools. I think in principle that's
Speaker 1: true that in smaller communities people are more likely to
Speaker 1: know one another and understand one another, and there is
Speaker 1: some degree of kind of exceptionalism, like, oh, well, I
Speaker 1: might not like the gays, but you know, so sana is.
Speaker 1: It's not like that she's the person that we've grown
Speaker 1: up with and so um, there's some degree of exceptionalism.
Speaker 1: But the culture in the context of classrooms and schools
Speaker 1: is really kind of the main thing that is going
Speaker 1: to drive how kids do. And do we have a
Speaker 1: school setting where the culture is that everyone is treated
Speaker 1: with respect and fairness. You know, do we have leaders
Speaker 1: among students that assert that, you know, everybody has a
Speaker 1: right to an opinion, everybody has a right to space,
Speaker 1: that we don't act that way in our school, that
Speaker 1: we all get along here? What do you what do
Speaker 1: you think about like celebrities, YouTubers, Instagram personalities. Have they
Speaker 1: been helpful? Because I know, certainly with my own kids,
Speaker 1: they see movies where you know, the best friend is
Speaker 1: trans or gay or and the more it gets into
Speaker 1: the mainstream of what teenagers watch, it seems to be
Speaker 1: kind of breaking a lot of stereotypes. Have you found that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know there's the good and the bad of all
Speaker 1: of the dimensions of that. Those of us who are
Speaker 1: old enough to remember when Helen came out, you know,
Speaker 1: on television, there was literally nothing, I mean, it was
Speaker 1: absolute deafening silence in media and that literally within two
Speaker 1: years there wasn't such thing as a show that didn't
Speaker 1: have a gay character. What followed from that was sort
Speaker 1: of the stereotypes. And I think what LGBTQ kids continually
Speaker 1: struggle with is like, huh, who am I and what
Speaker 1: am I going to become? And if you are sort
Speaker 1: of only seeing a certain kind of version of that
Speaker 1: gay meant rich white guy, I think that's where we
Speaker 1: have challenges. I think sometimes also those messages are simplistic,
Speaker 1: you know, like that it gets better. That was so
Speaker 1: compelling for so many people like us who were middle aged. Well,
Speaker 1: I'll speak for myself. I could be I could be
Speaker 1: your money anyway. Uh So for people who were looking
Speaker 1: back and thinking of the middle school is healthful, and
Speaker 1: that's true that the way that was so undermining for
Speaker 1: so many kids who felt like I don't want to wait,
Speaker 1: I'm getting harassed every single day when I go to school,
Speaker 1: and I frankly prefer not to wait until things are
Speaker 1: some days somehow somewhat better. There has been sort of
Speaker 1: among advocates among youth pushback on that message that like,
Speaker 1: we shouldn't use that as an excuse to settle for
Speaker 1: good enough schools for our kids or good enough faith
Speaker 1: communities for our kids. We should say, like, no, we
Speaker 1: should really, you know, make sure that things are better now.
Speaker 1: And we're we are learning a lot about what can
Speaker 1: make that happen. So much of my focus has been
Speaker 1: on schooling because that is the place where the rubber
Speaker 1: often meets the road. Wouldn't appear community before it comes home, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's an institution that where the public has
Speaker 1: a stake, and we can make policy changes in ways
Speaker 1: that we can't relate with families. We can't make families
Speaker 1: change their minds about things, right, but we can say
Speaker 1: the schools. You might not change your mind, but you
Speaker 1: should at least stop discriminating, or you should at least
Speaker 1: create systems so that kids don't get you know, bullied
Speaker 1: or harassed at school. Um, so at least at school,
Speaker 1: like you said, they can you know, implement a safer environment.
Speaker 1: And I do want to talk to you about how
Speaker 1: we can push lgbt studies into the school curriculum, But
Speaker 1: the home life you can't change. Now they're they're at
Speaker 1: home in most parts of this country seven with the
Speaker 1: family that you know, in terms of data and percentages
Speaker 1: are not supporting them. Um, how do we help these
Speaker 1: students that are in quarantine right now? Yeah, it's really hard.
Speaker 1: There are many lgbt Q kids whose experiences now that
Speaker 1: they are re closeting in a way. I mean that
Speaker 1: in fact, maybe their only place to have that expression
Speaker 1: was at school because they were not out at right
Speaker 1: You were had sort of navigated with your family that
Speaker 1: you were out, but you're real placed to be out
Speaker 1: was at school, And so now you're home and you're
Speaker 1: the re closeting. Idea point about like not bringing it up,
Speaker 1: not having it be the focus of attention, that conversation
Speaker 1: that we've all been avoiding, and even though we've had it,
Speaker 1: we're avoiding it. But one of the classic indication of
Speaker 1: family rejection for lgbt Q kids is parent regulating their
Speaker 1: peer networks, saying you can't hang out with those kids,
Speaker 1: or you can't go to that group or you can't,
Speaker 1: you know, or monitoring their media, their social or digital
Speaker 1: media use. Can I go to that site? Or can
Speaker 1: I you know, text or email the friends and so
Speaker 1: parents do that because it's the right thing to do
Speaker 1: in general for kids, right knowing who we are, who
Speaker 1: were with, and where we are. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: I struggle with it too, but I will say that
Speaker 1: during this pandemic, I have been a lot more lenient
Speaker 1: about screen time because it is their only way to socialize.
Speaker 1: Thinking about lgbt Q teens, I think ink and I
Speaker 1: hope that at least when they're in their rooms and
Speaker 1: they're struggling with whatever they're struggling with, especially with a
Speaker 1: family that maybe doesn't support them, that there are support groups.
Speaker 1: There are places that they can go during this period,
Speaker 1: even if they have to kind of put this, as
Speaker 1: you said, conversation on hold. There the Center link, it's
Speaker 1: a great national resource, and they have online chats now
Speaker 1: They've had this for for a while now, but I
Speaker 1: think those are really taking off as a place where
Speaker 1: adult facilitated for the kid that doesn't have their own room,
Speaker 1: for the kid that doesn't have their own computer or
Speaker 1: their own you know, eye tool or phone or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is that they need for their schooling. Um,
Speaker 1: what if the only space you have is with a sibling.
Speaker 1: What if the only space you have is in the
Speaker 1: living room of a of a family space. So I
Speaker 1: think we're seeing the you know, cultural diversity, social class
Speaker 1: diversity plant impacting not only just schooling, but then compounded
Speaker 1: with the social emotional development and sustaining the lives of
Speaker 1: LGBTQ kids and kids at the intersection of other sort
Speaker 1: of disadvantaged and marginal marginalized groups. We really have to
Speaker 1: be concerned about. And the relentless optimist is that we
Speaker 1: are learning dramatically new things that are going to change
Speaker 1: the way we will be from now on. This is
Speaker 1: a cohort defining a generation defining moment. There will never
Speaker 1: be kids who will like, let's hope right that this
Speaker 1: that there will not always be kids who have to
Speaker 1: learn only at home forever. Right. There will be a
Speaker 1: couple of years of kids that will say, my high
Speaker 1: school years were those COVID years, and I will always
Speaker 1: have hand sanitizer in my you know, back pocket for
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. And I think masks are
Speaker 1: to be like condoms like you need both, you gotta
Speaker 1: have them. And so I think adapting to digital communication
Speaker 1: is what young people have always done. All called sures.
Speaker 1: Young people are the innovators, not exclusively, but look at
Speaker 1: all of the people that we think of us billionaires,
Speaker 1: and you know, trace back where their innovation came from
Speaker 1: us when they were you know, exactly, teenagers tinkering around
Speaker 1: in a rag or an attic or a backyard or somewhere.
Speaker 1: These sort of dilemmas are going to help kids be resilient. Ah,
Speaker 1: but I am nervous about the ways that it's undermining
Speaker 1: kids in the moment. I think that's the thing that
Speaker 1: we as parents need to be concerned about. Now, a
Speaker 1: quick word from our sponsors, welcome back to go ask Gali.
Speaker 1: Let's get back to the discussion. Let's assume that there
Speaker 1: are some parents listening to this podcast who have a
Speaker 1: child who is a l g B t Q youth
Speaker 1: teenager and they are struggling with acceptance or they are
Speaker 1: struggling with how to support their teenager. Um, what kind
Speaker 1: of words of wisdom can you give these parents as
Speaker 1: well what I've learned from parents, especially from studying parent rejection. Yes, kids,
Speaker 1: is that nobody really wants to reject their children. I
Speaker 1: think it's so core to our understanding and vision and
Speaker 1: imagination for our kids, like what we think they're going
Speaker 1: to be someday. It's so if it's rooted in faith,
Speaker 1: it's so core to who to our fundamental beliefs about
Speaker 1: ourselves in the world. You can maintain your faith belief
Speaker 1: and support the thriving of your kid at the same
Speaker 1: time that those don't have to be in conflict. The
Speaker 1: minority of people I think that really sort of fundamentally
Speaker 1: believed that to two men or two women should not
Speaker 1: be married. Um, you know, if you can put that
Speaker 1: on pause for now. When your kid is not asking
Speaker 1: you if they can get married, they're asking you like
Speaker 1: can I, you know, watch this show? Or can I
Speaker 1: wear this outfit? Or can I cut my hair in
Speaker 1: a certain way. When we when we regulate them and
Speaker 1: when we tell them that it's not okay, if we
Speaker 1: can just back off from those messages, they will thrive.
Speaker 1: They will be okay. Kids don't need their parents ac
Speaker 1: acceptance because then they have nothing to complain about. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is part of what I used to be a teenager.
Speaker 1: And when you show the statistics about depression, suicide, substance use,
Speaker 1: and you say, we know that if you can back
Speaker 1: off from these things, if you can, if you can
Speaker 1: quit telling them that who they are is not okay,
Speaker 1: your kid will do better. And most most parents are
Speaker 1: willing to do that. And then you know, they realize
Speaker 1: this is not the end of the world. My kid
Speaker 1: is actually the person I love, and they're becoming who
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be in the world. Like I can
Speaker 1: say to teachers, I'm not trying to change your values.
Speaker 1: You don't have to like suddenly be in favor of
Speaker 1: I'm just going to use gay marriage because that was
Speaker 1: the thing we talked about for a while. You don't
Speaker 1: have to be in favor of that to make sure
Speaker 1: that that kid is okay in the classroom. That's week.
Speaker 1: How can all kids have an equal chance in education?
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, and I think it's so
Speaker 1: important because I think what happens is um particularly with parents,
Speaker 1: is they they make a huge leap from Oh I
Speaker 1: just saw you know, Frannie kissing Jane. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to have grandchildren. Oh my god, this
Speaker 1: is so antichrist. You know, whatever they wherever they go
Speaker 1: to that to just like you said, put it on
Speaker 1: hold to be so helpful for their psychological growth, I
Speaker 1: imagine and I feel, and I try to support the
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community because I could really weep for the students
Speaker 1: who have that at home, that anger and an unaccepting
Speaker 1: household and then go to school and are bullied. Um.
Speaker 1: And so if we can just give a little bit
Speaker 1: of guidance to parents, and you are definitely doing with schools,
Speaker 1: a little bit of of hope for them, then you know,
Speaker 1: get these kids through their teenage years, like you said,
Speaker 1: consequently they will be I think the parents, if they
Speaker 1: are more accepting, will still maintain that connection with them
Speaker 1: when they get older and make whatever decisions they make
Speaker 1: in the world. And it's complicated by the fact of adolescence.
Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is people used to come out
Speaker 1: when they were in their twenties and thirties and forties,
Speaker 1: and now they're coming out when they're sixteen, fifteen, fourteen,
Speaker 1: thirteen or six seven, you know, with respect to gender
Speaker 1: identity expression. And I think that the dilemma right now
Speaker 1: that we're in that there have not been models for
Speaker 1: being a supportive parent of a queer kid. We haven't
Speaker 1: really had that. I mean, the next generation will have that,
Speaker 1: but right now we're making it up. Having a trans child. UM,
Speaker 1: the deep, profound, incredible confrontation to their imagination for that
Speaker 1: child is going to be in the world. And how like,
Speaker 1: what was so concerning to me about the idea that
Speaker 1: my child that was born as Robert is going to
Speaker 1: be my beautiful daughter? Like the whole point of the
Speaker 1: human species is that were resilient. I mean, that's why
Speaker 1: we exist as we do. UM, And so I think
Speaker 1: families are fundamentally resilient, and almost all parents want to
Speaker 1: do right by their kids. So I think it's really
Speaker 1: helping families understand that it is those it's the things
Speaker 1: that we're doing, the everyday small things that actually get
Speaker 1: under the skin and erode our kids well being. You know,
Speaker 1: I came out when I was twenty six. I lived independently,
Speaker 1: was financially mostly independent, and didn't rely emotionally economically financially
Speaker 1: on my parents. And I wasn't his maldi And you know,
Speaker 1: there was no outgay people at the university where I
Speaker 1: went in the It was in the in the South
Speaker 1: and in the eighties that just that much has changed,
Speaker 1: and so my ability to emotionally regulate myself. When I
Speaker 1: was coming out to my parents, and my parents saying,
Speaker 1: you know, my mom saying, you know, expect me to
Speaker 1: tell anybody to you, and it's like, Mom, I don't
Speaker 1: expect to tell anybody. Or the first thing she did
Speaker 1: was call and tell people you know. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: I have to say that sometimes coming out stories are
Speaker 1: so helpful to younger people. I mean I have many
Speaker 1: friends that have, you know, told my kids they're coming
Speaker 1: out story because when they tell the story and the
Speaker 1: parents empower them, everybody's like, oh my god, your parents
Speaker 1: are so great. Um, will you tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit about you as a parent before before we sign off?
Speaker 1: Just tell me about your kids and sort of how
Speaker 1: you parent them. Sure, it's a wild, long story, so
Speaker 1: I don't know how much time you have. But my
Speaker 1: son is twenty five and he was an undocumented immigrant.
Speaker 1: He was their team. We were not lucky to be parents.
Speaker 1: We had a immigration attorney friend who called and said, like,
Speaker 1: there's a gay kid who's undocumented who needs a home
Speaker 1: right now. Can you do it? And we looked at
Speaker 1: each other and said, uh, I guess so we should
Speaker 1: probably do that. And he's amazing and it was an
Speaker 1: adventure because we were like it was pretty The funny part,
Speaker 1: of course, was that we were like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: what do we do? And people kept saying to me,
Speaker 1: aren't you an expert on this? Supposed to know something?
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, I never thought
Speaker 1: about I'm not a I don't know what do you
Speaker 1: think about raising a kid? They're like, wait, you're the expert.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. It's just one kid or two? Just one?
Speaker 1: Just one? Yeah? And did you have to learn Spanish?
Speaker 1: It's super interesting, like a very sort of classic immigrant story.
Speaker 1: He was not and he did not want to speak Spanish.
Speaker 1: I think he had a lot of trauma. And he
Speaker 1: also was invested in rejecting Mexican part of who he was.
Speaker 1: He understood it as poor and homophobic and you know, negative,
Speaker 1: and that was that was a hard thing for us
Speaker 1: for a long time, was helping him understand actually HOMOPHOBI
Speaker 1: he's not owned by certain groups, like there are plenty
Speaker 1: of white people that are. Um, so he got he
Speaker 1: got to grow up in this this incredibly nurturing environment s.
Speaker 1: He the super interesting thing for him was like the
Speaker 1: three sixty twice from from a really one kind of
Speaker 1: life to a to another one to a middle class
Speaker 1: where the last thing he needed to worry about was
Speaker 1: being gay. Um, but we had so many interesting wild
Speaker 1: stories about you know, raising a gay teenager these days,
Speaker 1: and especially him. But you know, for example, I do
Speaker 1: all this research on high school gender sexuality alliance clubs,
Speaker 1: case straight Alliance clouds g s A, and there was
Speaker 1: a g s A at his school, and I was
Speaker 1: friends with the faculty sponsor the g s A. And
Speaker 1: I kept saying him, why don't you go to the
Speaker 1: g S Have you thought about the g s A?
Speaker 1: And it finally he didn't. He was not interested, And
Speaker 1: I finally said, what's the deal with the g s A.
Speaker 1: He said, Look, all the kids at the g s
Speaker 1: A complained about their parents and not being able to
Speaker 1: be out at home, and I just like, I just
Speaker 1: don't want to hang out with them. And I thought,
Speaker 1: how interesting, My kid like doesn't connect with the gay
Speaker 1: kids because they're struggling with coming out and he's like,
Speaker 1: been there, done that. And actually one of his big
Speaker 1: problems as a teenager dating was that all the little
Speaker 1: boys he wanted to date, wanted to date him, but
Speaker 1: didn't want anyone to know. Yeah, he thought like he
Speaker 1: was he was ahead of his time in that way
Speaker 1: because he was like, you know, it was all out
Speaker 1: there for him because his his life circumstance, and he
Speaker 1: was the gay kid with the gay dads, and so
Speaker 1: he was like, I can't believe these stupid boys are
Speaker 1: too ashamed of being gay. And I'm like, well, honey, yeah,
Speaker 1: they had to really did have a really different experience
Speaker 1: than you have, exactly exactly, very proud of him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd call that a success story. And he's just he's
Speaker 1: a really sweet guy, which is nice. How would you
Speaker 1: direct anybody that wanted to get involved in an activist
Speaker 1: kind of way politically about helping schools be more inclusive
Speaker 1: with the LGBTQ communities or is there any place you
Speaker 1: would direct people? Glisten is his amazing national organization for
Speaker 1: LGBTQ issues and education and so, and there are chapters
Speaker 1: all around the country. Listen is like the go to
Speaker 1: and then uh, you know, reach out. I mean one
Speaker 1: of the things I say when I do workshops or
Speaker 1: I visit teachers, or I say, you know, does your
Speaker 1: school have an inclusive nondiscrimination policy, and there are many
Speaker 1: many blank faces in the room, even if people that
Speaker 1: are well meaning, even if people that are advocates for
Speaker 1: their kids. And I think that kind of really concrete.
Speaker 1: Call your superintendent, call your school board members, and say,
Speaker 1: why don't we include sexual orientation and gender identity and
Speaker 1: expression in our nondiscrimination policy. Have our teachers been trained
Speaker 1: on understanding and supporting LGBTQ young people. And when you
Speaker 1: know of families that are experiencing dilemmas for their kids
Speaker 1: that are LGBTQ, become involved. So like think of uh
Speaker 1: any LGBTQ kid as our kids. And so I really
Speaker 1: think that parents make a huge difference in moving to
Speaker 1: dial in schools. And I think when um what happens,
Speaker 1: I think for many parents of LGBTQ kids, as their
Speaker 1: kid may be the only kid, the parent may feel isolated,
Speaker 1: the parent may feel like they don't know where to go.
Speaker 1: P FLAG Parents and Friends of Lesbian and Gays is
Speaker 1: an important also national organization for parents. UM. But what
Speaker 1: I would say to the parents of the CIS straight
Speaker 1: kids is like, listen to your kids, find out what's happening,
Speaker 1: and be an ally to the parents of kids, who
Speaker 1: are you know, going to the school board of the principle.
Speaker 1: That was absolutely absolutely well. Stephen, this has been great.
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to shoot the movie based on the
Speaker 1: book based in your life. Oh my god, I love
Speaker 1: that part of a chapter of the book will be
Speaker 1: about being a cheer mom. I was a cheer mom
Speaker 1: for my son. My son integrated the two son h
Speaker 1: serious and the stories that I had. I would go
Speaker 1: to these meetings and I was one of the only dads.
Speaker 1: I would tornment my kids and say like, do you
Speaker 1: want to get my nails done with the badger because
Speaker 1: all the moms have their nail stuff with badgers for
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, that's great. I mean, but by the way,
Speaker 1: teenagers are embarrassed of your parents no matter what you
Speaker 1: do anyway, So that's all I do is embarrass my daughters.
Speaker 1: Stephen Russell, thank you so much for being on go
Speaker 1: ask Alli. This has been really great. It's been so
Speaker 1: nice to talk to you about sort of what you're
Speaker 1: doing and your thoughts and I think you know, for me,
Speaker 1: this is a particularly important issue for parents, and thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, and it's really fun. Thank you
Speaker 1: for tuning in to Go ask Ali, feel free to
Speaker 1: write a review, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, or follow me on
Speaker 1: social media on Instagram, the Real Ali Wentworth and Twitter
Speaker 1: Ali E. Wentworth. Go ask Alli is a production of
Speaker 1: Shonda land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.