1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dick. It happened here at the podcast that 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: I and Mia Wong occasionally hijack talk about Asian American stuff, 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: and you know, some some some some pretty interesting Asian 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: American stuff happened, which is that, Yeah, there was a 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: sort of massive sweeping cultural victory question mark for the 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: Asian American community TM when everything ever we were all 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: at once did. Okay, I'm getting conflicting sources about exactly 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: the record that I said at the Oscars, but it 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: won seven Oscars, did very well. Everyone is very happy. Um. Yeah, 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: So I decided that I was going to use this 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: to talk about some other stuff that is related to it, 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: and with me to talk about many things, including sort 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: of the family in patriarchy and Asian American culture and media. 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: Is Tiffany a filmmaker from New York. Tiffany, Welcome to 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: the show. Hi, thanks for having me on. Thanks thanks 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: for being on. Um. So we were for trying to 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: figure out how precisely we want to sort of start this, 18 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: because you know, there's a lot of sort of angles 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: you can take. I think that the thing that I 20 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,919 Speaker 1: want to start with is well, like a okay, everything 21 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: every all it Wants is a very good movie in 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, and I think it's sort of 23 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: it's kind of the apotheosis of a structure of Asian 24 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: American media that I've I've talked about before on this show. 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: Um that I'm gonna I'm gonna run through a brief 26 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: explanation of what this is. So something that I yeah, 27 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: I've talked about a bit before that that I think 28 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: about a lot is the way in which Asian American 29 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: media has been. It has a basically a structural form. 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: It has there's a very specific story or set of 31 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: story structures into which anything you're trying to tell has 32 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: to be fit and that that series of things is okay. 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: So you have a small business, you have you have 34 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of immigrants that come to the US or 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: that they are well usually they're already in the US, 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: and they're trying to run a small business and they're 37 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: having these issues sort of integrating into into sort of 38 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: like a wide American society, and there's some kind of 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: conflict in the family, and the TV show or the 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: movie is about like resolving this sort of conflict. Um. Yeah. 41 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,399 Speaker 1: And I think everything ever all at once is like 42 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: the best version of this that we've ever gotten in 43 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. But you know, and something I've 44 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: talked about in a certain New Year's episode is that 45 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: there's something about I guess Asian American like the way 46 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: our sort of political culture works that makes it so 47 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: that this is the only story that we tell. And 48 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you can look at a lot 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: of the sort of like, sorry, I've been rambling for 50 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: a lot, but I want to get this out of 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: the way before you go further. But you know, like 52 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: the there there's a lot of movies that are like 53 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: it's like you know, shows like Fresh off the Boat, 54 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: like Iron Fist is also sort of like almost literally 55 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: this right, um like Turning Red. This is sort of 56 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: like an emblematic example of sort of thing that is 57 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: exactly this, Like Fresh off the Boat is basically this, right. 58 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: I think part of the sort of there's a kind 59 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: of ideological shell game happening here that's about the family. 60 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: Everything ever, all at once, has a lot of similarities 61 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: the crazy rich Asians in ways that are kind of 62 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: not immediately apparent. I have finally reached the point, TM, 63 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: but which is that both everything everywhere, all at once 64 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: in Crazy Rich Asians ends in exactly the same way, right, 65 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: which is the the like the this the sort of 66 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: family tension that has had been sort of building up 67 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: and playing out throughout the entire movie like is resolved 68 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: and every one sort of goes back to being a family. 69 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: And this is interesting specifically for Crazy Rich Asians because 70 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: in the original, like in the book version of this story, 71 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: the family shatters. The plot of that movie is this, 72 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: this Asian American girl is dating like this guy who's 73 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: from Singapore, who has not told her that he's from 74 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: like an unbelievably rich, like Singaporean family, and the story 75 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: is about him going about them going to Singapore and 76 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: realizing that this guy is unbelievably rich and that his 77 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: family is just assholes who suck. And in the book, 78 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: like the family like mistreats both of them really badly 79 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: and so they just leave and they book it and 80 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: they cut they cut off the rich family. But in 81 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: the movie they some weird thing happens where like the 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: main character plays Ma Jung with the guy's mom and 83 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: like a miracle occurs in the family works out and 84 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: everything everyone at wants has a very similar sort of 85 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: thing where like the way this movie ends, And I 86 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: want to say I do. I do like this movie 87 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: a lot, But the way that it ends is Evelyn, 88 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: who is Joy's mom, walks up to her and says, 89 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: you're fat, and I don't like that you got a tattoo. 90 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: But also the family is good and like we should 91 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: work it out, and then they do, like a baricle occurs, 92 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: and there's this sort of running ideology in this which 93 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: is that like the family is sort of sort of 94 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: too big to fail, like you're you're not allowed to 95 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: have a a movie that's about something that's not about 96 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: the family, or be a movie where you know, like 97 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: the end of it is people walk away from your 98 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: family because it's hurt them a lot, right, And I 99 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: will also say that sort of Asian American cultural production 100 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: that doesn't center the family, it actually just doesn't get 101 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: read as being Asian American, right, Like I think, I um, 102 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen this, but like being 103 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: View has this beautiful documentary called Minding the Gap, and 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: it's about like his trauma and his like sort of 105 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: youth growing up in a broken home and hanging out 106 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: with skateboarding friends, some of whom are like black and 107 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: that just never gets talked about as an Asian American film, 108 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: even though it's made by an Asian American filmmaker, and 109 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: his experience as like someone who actually migrated from China 110 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: is such a big part of his story. Like, because 111 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: it's not about the sort of family conflict and reconciliation, 112 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: it actually doesn't get read as an Asian American film 113 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the time, which to me is interesting. 114 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, I just wanted to second your point that 115 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: like in both of these films, everything everywhere, all at 116 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: once and crazy rich Asians, like nothing actually changes. You know, 117 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: there's the reconciliation within the family, but nothing about the 118 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: family structure changes. Like I think Evelyn her the sort 119 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: of like conciliatory gesture she gives us, like, oh, I'm 120 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: your mom, and I would always choose to be with 121 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: you in any universe. I forget like the exact phrasing. 122 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: It's been a while since, but it's something like that. 123 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I would still want to be 124 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: with you because I'm your mom. And it's like this 125 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: very um the family is it is its own explanation, Yeah, 126 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: and I think it points to sort of this is 127 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: the movie that I think hit the exact limit of 128 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: this kind of of this kind of sort of Asian 129 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: family politics because in in in it's in this sort 130 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: of like moment where it needs to justify itself. It can't. 131 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: It doesn't have anything. The moment's it's sort of it's 132 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's empty of an actual like it's 133 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: it's empty of any sort of like I D logical 134 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: message about why this should be redemptive, right, like just 135 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, and and I think this is something that 136 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: like we don't think about enough, which is that like like, okay, 137 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: if if your mother hurts you like a lot, right, 138 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: like them being your mother is not a redemptive thing. 139 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: I mean, this is something I've been thinking about a 140 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: lot in the context of sort of transness and and 141 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, and in the ways that like trans people 142 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: like i mean literally get killed by their families, in 143 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: the ways that they get you know, kicked out from 144 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: their families, and the ways that sort of this this 145 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: this sort of self justification of it's good because it 146 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: is right that like the relationship. Yeah, this is sort 147 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: of what you were saying, right, is like it justifies 148 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: itself by just like well, I am your mother. It's like, 149 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: well that's not an argument, right, yeah, right, and it's 150 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: not enough. Like I think Joy spends the whole film 151 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: like fighting to be seen by her mom, and in 152 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: the end, her mom doesn't really give any reason why 153 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: she loves Joy, Like there's nothing like specific to Joy 154 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: herself as a person. It's just like you're my daughter, 155 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm your mother. Of course I love you. And you know, 156 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: like why should that be something a queer child settles for, 157 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: like just this very basic baseline of acceptance rather than 158 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: anything that like actually celebrates who they are as an individual. Yeah, 159 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: and that's something that I also wanted to talk about 160 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: with This is like and this is not just like 161 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: the specific you know, we're talking a lot about the 162 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: Certific movie because this is like the most recent one 163 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: that's come out, and and we're not sort of saying 164 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: this to like like there is a lot of like 165 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: good stuff in this movie, Like this is the movie 166 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: like like Joy is probably the character who is like 167 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: closest to me who I have ever seen in anything 168 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: like at any point, right, and like there was something 169 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, sort of incredibly emotional, like I cried a 170 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: lodger in this movie. That was like incredibly emotional about 171 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: you know, like seeing yourself in it, Like yeah, yeah. 172 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: But there's something about the way that Asian Americans, like 173 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 1: especially sort of like cysaid Asian Americans, think about queerness 174 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: that that I think is is you see in this movie, 175 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: which is that. Okay, so this movie has two queer 176 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: relationships in it, right unless you're going to count like 177 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,599 Speaker 1: the guy in the raccoon, which it's funny, but I 178 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: don't know about that one, but right, but you know, 179 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: the actual like the actual two sort of like queer 180 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: relationships are between Joy and her girlfriends and then between 181 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: Evelyn and the tax lady. And there's two things that 182 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: are interesting about that. One is that both of the 183 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: both of the characters, they're in relationships with our white 184 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: and very and this this is a visit like something 185 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: that's very very specifically like pointed out about Joy's girlfriends, 186 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: and you know, you know that's the joke is like, well, 187 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: she's half Mexican, but she's played throughout the entire thing 188 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: as like an outsider who like doesn't understand what's happening 189 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: in this sort of scenes, like doesn't understand the family dynamic, 190 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't understand its knees and you know, and you 191 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: see this again with Okay, so who have like you know, 192 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: they're able to imagine a world in which, like Evelyn, 193 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: the main character, who has like just been homophobic this 194 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: entire movie, is in a queer relationship and like, yeah, 195 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: like I good for her. But if you look at 196 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: who it's with, right, it's it's the character in the 197 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: movie who is this tax lady who her thing is 198 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: that she is like like she she she she is 199 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: like the human representation of the sort of white supremacists, 200 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: like capitalist bureaucracy that is, you know, attacking this family 201 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: and is sort of like driving these people into the ground. 202 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: And then she's sort of redeemed by by like love 203 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: and queerness. But there's this way that queerness gets positioned 204 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: is outside of asianness, by the way that like by 205 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: the the way that the only possible crew relationship that 206 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: they can imagine is with a white person, as you know, 207 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: as someone who's explicitly marked as an outsider. Right, Yeah, 208 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. Like queerness it 209 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: queerness is like attached to these anxieties over assimilation. Yeah, 210 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: from the perspective of like the older generation like Evlyn 211 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: and Going Going is like the fear of them being 212 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: assimilated too much into this Western culture um, which is 213 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: just a very it's it's very strange to me that 214 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: this is the thing that keeps coming up in like 215 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: Asian American narratives and discourses because obviously, like Asian American, 216 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: like Asian your cinema in Asia is like such a 217 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: powerful cultural force. And the film makes all these one 218 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: car Hire references, and I feel like One car Hi 219 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: has made like one of the greatest works of crew 220 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: cinema happy together um of like recent decades. And so 221 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: it's just it's so strange, um how craness is being 222 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: positioned as like an external threat. And I mean, like 223 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: you know, you you could you could take a sort 224 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: of like like the if you if you want to 225 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: do the lib analysis of this, Like China has had 226 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: queer rulers like there has there has the West produced one, 227 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: like maybe I possibly at some point maybe, but like 228 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, like it's kind of like it's ideologically frustrating, right, 229 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: like like you know you can fall back onto like 230 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: we know that, like we have records of where people 231 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: in China for like five thousand fucking years, right, Like 232 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: it's you know, but like I think, I think what's 233 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: really interesting about this is that this is something that 234 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: seen as so natural that people writing like even like 235 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: like Asian American like writers writing about the film don't 236 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: even notice it, like they just they just sort of 237 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: passively reproduce it. Yeah, And I don't know, I think 238 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, it's deeply frustrating, like being an 239 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: Asian queer person, because this is something that like, you know, 240 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: the the kinds of right wing nationalism that like are 241 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: like they they you know, like there's kinds of sort 242 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: of Chinese nationalism right that will make that will make 243 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: this like explicitly make the same argument that like gay 244 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: people are like a like a sort of like I mean, 245 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: I guess they would have they would have said it 246 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: was borshewaba. Now it's a sort of like decadent Western 247 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: like imposition onto the like onto the world of Asia. 248 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: But it's like like no, but then but then, but 249 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: you know, you you get these like sort of like 250 00:14:53,920 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: very well credentialed, like progressive like Asian American who are 251 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: just either implicitly or almost explicitly making exactly the same argument. Yeah, yes, 252 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: And it's also what the American right wing think, right 253 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: like they want to China as like if you know, 254 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: China represents this like sexual threat of having like the 255 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: society where everyone is in their place, you know, Like 256 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: they imagine that these sort of like traditional gender roles 257 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: are much more adhered to in China, which is why 258 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: it's like we're on the decline, like China's rising. So 259 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: it's yeah, it is a very weird idea that nationalists 260 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: on both sides are attached to. And it's disappointing that 261 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: um Asian Americans who think of themselves as progressive or 262 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: even radical kind of reproduce this unthinkingly. Yeah. I mean 263 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: one of my like recent black Pill moments was I 264 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: don't know if people remember this, um, but there there 265 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: there was There was someone on Twitter who very kind 266 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: of famously got like just like obliterated for saying that, 267 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: I for for saying that like people people shouldn't like 268 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: cancel their subscription to The New York Times after they 269 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: like did the whole thing. They did this whole bullshit. 270 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: A few people don't know what the sort of scandal 271 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: was it. So the a bunch of people who'd written 272 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: for the New York Times sent them a very very 273 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: bild letter saying like, hey, can you guys like fix 274 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: some obvious like like not even saying fixed, like can 275 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: you report on trans issues better here? Or some like 276 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: glaring short of mistakes that you made in New York 277 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: Times through a hissy fit and got really mad at 278 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: them and and you know this, this person's reaction was like, oh, 279 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: well you can't you like, don't cancel your subscription, like 280 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: you have to support the news. And it was this 281 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: like sort of moment and she she is one of 282 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: the host of like one of the big progressive ation 283 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: American podcasts, and it was like it was just you know, 284 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: for me, it was it was just really sort of 285 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: like black pilling moment of like, oh, this is like 286 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: this is like what like like you know what like 287 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: like three three, three seventy five a month. It is 288 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: what these people think my life is worth. Like yeah, 289 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think this kind of ideological stuff 290 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: is very deeply tied into the way that Asian Americans 291 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: have been representing and thinking about the family instead of 292 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: recent years. And but but but but before before we 293 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: go into that, do you know when the family is 294 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: trying to sell you. It is it is the products 295 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: and services that support this podcast. We have to take 296 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: an ad break. We will be right back. Yeah, just 297 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: out of just out of curiosity, since I don't have 298 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: the pleasure of listening to the ads while we're recording, 299 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: Like what is going to play during that? I have 300 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: no idea, Like, it could be anything. I don't know. 301 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: It could be a gold ad, it could be the 302 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: f while we have the FBI tried to do it. Yeah, 303 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: we've had, We've had, We've had law unfortunate agencies. We've 304 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: had people selling gold Ronald Reagan coins. I we've had. 305 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: I don't think I've seen that, like since I was 306 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: a child. I think they used to have like television commercials. Yeah, 307 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: they do it on podcasts now. Apparently a thing that 308 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: I discovered when people sent me so look like maybe 309 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: maybe maybe maybe maybe they'll do a Thatcher one and 310 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: you two can own the the immortal words. There is 311 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: no such thing as society. There is only individuals in 312 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: the family. Yeah. Wow, Well, whatever it takes to keep 313 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: the podcast running. Yeah, so all right, something I wanted 314 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: to sort of circle back to is, you know, I 315 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: think one of the one of the sort of one 316 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: of the things about this kind of Asian American media, 317 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: You know that you have this this sort of ambivalence 318 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: of like like like what the sort of queer child 319 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: is supposed to be? And you know, like I would 320 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: say this like it is a pretty common experience if 321 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: you are like a queer child of an Asian family 322 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: that your family does fucked up shit. Do you like 323 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: that's a thing? Um? And this is I wanted to 324 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: ask you about something that you've been talking about that 325 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm sort of interested in, which is one of the 326 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: things that I don't know when you try to talk 327 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: about this stuff. There's this way in which the way 328 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: we sort of collectively think about when I say we 329 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: this is like I guess, like a kind of specific 330 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: Asian American thing. The way we think about trauma gets 331 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: involved very quickly. Yeah, And I was wondering for you 332 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: talk about that some more. Yeah, I feel like there's 333 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: this there are these sort of like unspoken discursive rules 334 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: where when you talk about trauma within an Asian immigrant family, 335 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: there are like, first of all, it's always intergenerational trauma, right, 336 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: Like you can't talk about like a queer child experiencing 337 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: trauma without then like getting into the fact that, oh, 338 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: like the parents have experienced traumatic things like through the 339 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: process of immigration or like war, the refugee experience, etcetera, etcetera. 340 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: And so there's this sort of like economy of trauma 341 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: where some members within the family get their trauma treated 342 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: as more legitimate and others don't. I think it's like 343 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: really common to hear this refrain, which is like, oh, 344 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: second generation immigrants are like the you know, people like 345 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: US Asian immigrant children who were born in the West, Um, 346 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: can't possibly know that like the real trauma that our 347 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: parents or grandparents went through because they were the ones 348 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: who like fled their countries or experienced war firsthand, or 349 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: grew up in poverty. But then it's also just like 350 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: when we talk about eight intergenerational trauma, Um, there's this 351 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: sort of like obfiscation of who was enacting that trauma 352 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: within the family, right, like if the intergenerational trauma exists, 353 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: like who is passing it down? And so I don't 354 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm articulating myself well on this, 355 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: but um, yeah, I guess the essential ideas that I 356 00:21:52,080 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: think there's this like mechanism which kind of um immediately 357 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: dilegitimizes any talk of abuse or trauma from the perspective 358 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: of um Asian youth or from the perspective of like 359 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: the child in the family. Yeah, And I think I 360 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: think that's a kind of I don't know, there's just 361 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: really baffling, deep unwillingness in a lot of ways to 362 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: think about. And I think this is a sort of 363 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: broader like cultural thing too, But there's just deep unwillingness 364 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: to think about the family as a side of violence 365 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: and as a side of sort of profound violence. It's like, 366 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: you know, like it's the place where the violence that 367 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: shapes you comes from in a lot of cases. And 368 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: I mean, like I know a lot of people. This 369 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: has happened to you, has happened to me to some extent, 370 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: And there's this real kind of you know, this is 371 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: what this is what I actually really liked about everything everywhere, 372 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: all at once. It's like it like goes into that 373 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Like it is a movie 374 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: for about nine the nine tenths of the movie. It 375 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: is a movie about how like the people around like 376 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: how how the people in your family can hurt you 377 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: repeatedly and about the sort of like the ways that 378 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: they think about it, the way but you know, there's 379 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: there's but but but but but I think this is 380 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: where this sort of perspective thing comes into it, where like, yeah, 381 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: we're I think, like we don't really have a language 382 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: to sort of talk about this stuff, and the way 383 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: the film deals with it is sort of like you know, 384 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: is is this kind of like very specific kind of nihilism, 385 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: which is like definitely a thing that you can fall into, right, 386 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: like you know, like that like that that is definitely 387 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: a reaction to being traumatized, but it's seen as like 388 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: illegitimate and world destroying I think in a lot of 389 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: ways because it causes you to sort of like if 390 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: if that's your experience of the family, like you're going 391 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: to leave or you're going to or you're only going 392 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: to and by force, and so you know, the movie 393 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 1: sort of rejects it. But but you know, there's this 394 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: way that it's very difficult to talk about this stuff 395 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: and about the sort of like long arc of how 396 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: people have thought about the family before us. Right, what's 397 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: an example of what you mean by like how people 398 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: have thought about the family before us? Well, I think 399 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: I think in the Chinese context in particular, there's a 400 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: very there's like there's I mean, if you look at 401 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: what was happening in in the sort of rat like 402 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: in the in the sort of very radical periods in 403 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: Chinese history in the last you know, if you like 404 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: last sort of hundred years, you look at sort of 405 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: what's going on in nineteen twenty five, if you look 406 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: at what happens immediately like after the Chinese Revolution, like 407 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: there is a real period of like questioning, questioning patriarchal authority, 408 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: of questioning like what is the family for? Like why 409 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: why are we doing this? And you know, I think 410 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: I think the answers they came to were ultimately unsatisfying, 411 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: which is that like, well, we need the family around 412 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: because like we we are, our economy does not function 413 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: without uncompensated labor. So the Maoists sort of like attempt 414 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: to grapple with this fails. But I don't like as 415 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: as as as with many things that Maoism attempt to 416 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: grappled with, I don't think they were wrong to look 417 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: at it. I think their solutions were all terrible, But 418 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: I think there's this kind of I mean, there's this 419 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: reaction there's there's a kind of older Asian queer reaction 420 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: which I think is like kind of deeply suspicious of 421 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: the family, as you know, this thing that has an 422 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: enormous amount of potential to sort of inflict violence on 423 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: you and sort of destabilize your life and cut you 424 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: off from resources and information. I mean, I was struck 425 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: by someone else making this comment about how like in 426 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: everything everywhere, all at once, you know, they can imagine 427 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: like the sort of infinite um number of universes, but 428 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: in every single one, the family unit remains the same, 429 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, like the social arrangement never changes across all 430 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: of these different universes. Yeah. I thought that was a 431 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: really good point. There's just like the sense in which 432 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the recent Asian American culture can't imagine 433 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: the family as like something that can be transformed. It 434 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: just kind of takes it for granted as this like static, 435 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: eternal structure which can't be challenged, and people, if they 436 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: find reconciliation or happiness, it needs to be somehow within 437 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: that same arrangement. Yeah, And I think a lot of 438 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: that has to do with like the thing that we've 439 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: decided about elders collectively, which is another one of those things, 440 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: like is like the legitimacy of the authority of elders 441 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: is something that in in Chinese revolutionary history is something 442 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: that's very much up for debate, and almost everyone who 443 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: decided to like take up arms against the state, like 444 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: almost all of those people were like, this is messed up. 445 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: And then you know, I think, I think partially as 446 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: a result of how badly sort of the Maoist project goes, 447 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: and then also I think as as as a kind 448 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: of like explicit part of state policy, there's this way 449 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: in which that kind of authority gets reinscribed and any 450 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: sort of questioning of it gets gets looked at as 451 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: like oh or like a return to sort of like 452 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: Maoist egalitarianism or whatever. Which the thing that I see 453 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: a lot in the ways that like not really Asian Americans, 454 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: but like in the in in in in, you see 455 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: this in Chinese discourse like a decent amount. I mean, 456 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: you see this in kind of um messed up ways, 457 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: and some of the Asian American discourse from people whose 458 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: families never participated directly in the Maoist project. You know, 459 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: they might have like a lot of people who immigrated 460 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: here to the US weren't like they were connected to 461 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 1: the KMT. They were on the nationalist side. There are 462 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: people who ideologically were never aligned with UM any sort 463 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: of socialist project, and you know they'll they'll they'll invoke 464 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,959 Speaker 1: things like well, you know, this is exactly what my 465 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: ancestors were fleeing from China. Yeah, and it's like, okay, 466 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: like you guys, like I I have really bad news 467 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: for you about like what the KMT's ideology was, and 468 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: like I feel like this is like sort of these 469 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: are like the egg monopoly people, right, Yeah, And but 470 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: I think I think like this has two effects, right, 471 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: which is like, on the one hand, those people like 472 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: that that like specific kind of very weird Chinese anti 473 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: communist is sort of incredibly privileged in in the way 474 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: that like that stuff's thought about. But then you know, 475 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: like there are a lot of people who are in 476 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: like from like from China who are in the US 477 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: like specifically because of the failure of this project. And 478 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: this is something else you talked about in the Atlanta episodes. 479 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: But like several of the people like who were killed 480 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, like were there because like liberalization drove them 481 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: to a point where like they you know where where 482 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: they had to work to support their families, and you know, 483 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: and and and the the other thing that sort of 484 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: comes hand in hand with liberalization is that that and 485 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, this is something that like people really 486 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: don't want to think about, which is that you know, 487 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: economic to somebody said political liberalization in China came hand 488 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: in hand with this massive entrancement of the patriarchal project, 489 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: which is the one child policy just sort of slamming 490 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: down like a hammer of being of the state, just 491 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: being like we are going to directively like we are 492 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: we are going to directly control your reproductive autonomy. We 493 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: are going to you know, we are going to force 494 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: that we sterilize people. We are going to like we 495 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: would literally just limit the amount of kids you can have. 496 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: We are going to make this sort of like giant 497 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, like this enormous state intervention into like 498 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: social reproduction, and the people who are the victims of that, 499 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: like you don't really hear from them much. I mean, 500 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: like what one of the stories I'm still just haunted 501 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: by is that one of the people who died in Atlanta, 502 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: like her family refused to bury her, like refused to 503 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: take her remains to bury her because like their village 504 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: is like no you you you never married, so you 505 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: can't be like buried in the village and wow. Yeah, 506 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: and so you know, like her like she had a 507 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: funeral in the US that was attended by no one 508 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: who knew her because none of her friends could show 509 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: up because you get a rushed by the cops. And 510 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: you know, there were these like there were these kinds 511 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: of like transnational linkages of like the violence of people's 512 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: families that just disappears from this sort of like narrative 513 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: of like like Asian americanness, like is the family is 514 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: this union basist relation? Right? And on that d of 515 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: did we also want to talk about how the sort 516 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: of like focus on the small business slash family or 517 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: the family as a small business obscures some of the 518 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: class conflicts within the Asian American community. Like yeah, these 519 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: very massage workers you're talking about. I remember in the 520 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 1: wake of that Atlanta stings, a lot of people started 521 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: they kind of views the massage workers as like an 522 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: emblem of the Asian American community more broadly um one 523 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: in fact, like a lot of the sort of like 524 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: more professional class Asian Americans or like the Asian Americans 525 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: who get platforms in the media, they aren't like they 526 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: aren't from the same class as like the massage workers are. Um, 527 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: we heard from like a lot of small business owners, 528 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: but those are those are the same people who like 529 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: own massage parlors and hire these exploited workers, who like 530 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: have undocumented status and who can thus be like put 531 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: into much more precarious positions than like you know, US 532 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: citizens and so, um, yeah, I did you want to 533 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: talk a bit more about that? Yeah, I mean, I 534 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: think I think the small business owners it's a really 535 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: sort of interesting and powerful character, like especially in the US, 536 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: because it's it's like it's possible to be a small 537 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: business owner, be really poor, but also not be propertyless. Yeah, 538 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: and I think that like the like the specifically like 539 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: the core of the American dream is is to own property. 540 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: And you know, so here is this class you can 541 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: point out as like, oh, well we're really poor, but 542 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: you don't actually you never have to look at labor 543 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: relations at all, right, and that that like frees you 544 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: from having to actually think about what capitalism is and 545 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: and it also lets you it lets really like the 546 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: actual sort of like the real sort of Asian American 547 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: ruling class, right, like the actual billionaires, right, and you 548 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: know there are Asian American billionaires. There's there's a good 549 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: number of them. There's also just a bunch of just 550 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: Asian billionaires. Because there is a there's just an Asian 551 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: ruling class. It lets those people, especially in the US, 552 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: hide behind the image of the Citi small business owner, right, 553 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: and they can you know, and they can use it 554 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: the launder their sort of reputation because like it's in 555 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: the US, like being anti small business is like the 556 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: hardest position you can possibly take. It is like like 557 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: it is you you like, I don't I don't know 558 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: if people remember this. Um, a friend of mine, Vicky Ostwall, 559 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 1: wrote this book called in Defensive Looting. Oh yeah, yeah, 560 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: great book. Everyone should read it. Like they were like 561 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: sitting US senators were like like yelling about the book, 562 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: like like a huge swasp on left left got like 563 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: unbelievably mad about it. Like a lot of you will 564 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: probably also get mad about it. But like, like one 565 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: of the things that always comes up with with with 566 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: looting is like I you know, it's like, well, are 567 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: you gonna loot small businesses? And it's like well, actually, yeah, 568 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: like like it as far as people looting small businesses, 569 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's the people who work there 570 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: and it sucks because working for small businesses is fucking 571 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: terrible and right, yeah, people in the community where those 572 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: like small businesses are and like our discriminatory towards Yeah, 573 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: and Vicky makes this point about this, there's this kind 574 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: of populism that gets invoked where you know, one of 575 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: the police statements about I think it was about ferguson 576 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: Um was there talking about like they burned down our 577 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: Walmart and it's like, well, what do you mean our Walmart? 578 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: Like fucking owned the Walmart, Like, don't get shipped from it. 579 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: Everyone who works on the walmarket's fucked. Everyone has to 580 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: buy it from the Walmart. But it's it's just really 581 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: hollow like populism, Like it's this thing that like you 582 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: assemble a community based around then around the corporation. And 583 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: I think that's kind of what's been happening with Like 584 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 1: I think this is the reason why Asian American culture 585 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: is like like this, because it's it's this it's like, 586 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's this this very hollow like in 587 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: a lot of like like multinational like populism has been 588 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: assembled around like the figure of the small business owner, 589 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: but it's ultimately like it doesn't really have ideas other 590 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: than you should let us like you should let us 591 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: make money without being racist. And also the fact like 592 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: the it has that idea, and then it has the 593 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: idea that the family is good because it is and 594 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: that's kind of it. M yeah, yeah, I don't I 595 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: don't know why. I think there's there's a lot about well, okay, 596 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: I always say this, like the the the day people 597 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: are okay with looting small businesses is the day the 598 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: US can actually fall, and any until before then, like 599 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: it will, it will survive, because that's always the sort 600 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: of last defense of capitalism is like what about small 601 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: businesses and you will you will get people who call 602 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: themselves communists who will be like no, no, no, actually 603 00:36:53,800 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: these are fine. It's like I mmmm mm hmm. Okay. 604 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: So I wanted to kind of pivot back around a 605 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: bit to talk about elders a bit more because I 606 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: feel like I kind of sidetracked us off of that. 607 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think there's this really I don't know, 608 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: there's been this kind of like rehabilitation of the elder 609 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 1: in a way that like was something that was deeply 610 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: questioned in periods where it was kind of like it 611 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: was more obvious and less and more socially sectable to 612 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: sort of look at the power these people have and 613 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: how much it can suck. M Well, yeah, I think 614 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: I noticed this picking up during you know, the sort 615 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,720 Speaker 1: of like first state of anti Asian attacks during COVID. 616 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: I think that's one like a lot of progressive Asians 617 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: started invoking the figure of the elder, right, like, our 618 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: elders are being attacked, like, um, an attack on our 619 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: elders is an attack on our community, Like that sort 620 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: of thing, um where the elder is kind of like 621 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: used as a sort of emblem of the innocence of 622 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: the Asian American community, or what do you like, what 623 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: work do you think the elder is doing there in 624 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: this discourse? Like why does it have to be an elder? 625 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: Like what if we were just saying Asian people are 626 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: being attacked, or like what if it was Asian youths 627 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: being attacked? Like why does it have to be the 628 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: Asian elder? Because I think we were talking about this earlier. Empirically, 629 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: it's not exactly true right, it wasn't mostly old people 630 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: who are victims of these attacks. Yeah, And I mean 631 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: I think this is one of the areas where, like 632 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: the murky, like it's really really hard to get good 633 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: data on being attacked because I mean, police reports are 634 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: obviously incredibly unreliable, right, and then you know, like they're 635 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: self collected data. But the self collected data is not 636 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: all encompassing it, you know, it's sort of skewed in 637 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: its own ways. But yeah, I think I think there's 638 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: this way in which, like, I don't know, like I 639 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: think there's almost as way in which elders almost like 640 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: they're also like like personally infantilized by it. Where it's 641 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: like pick does this sort of like like part of 642 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: like they use as a sort of symbol of like 643 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: people who can't defend themselves, which partially isn't true, like 644 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: there were actually examples of like Asian elders like defending themselves, 645 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: but but it does this kind of like and also 646 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: like the rates of gun purchase purchases one up with it. 647 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I know, like just then totally in the 648 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: Chinese American community, I knew so many like like elderly 649 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,439 Speaker 1: Chinese people who are like I'm going to go out 650 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: and buy a gun though. Yeah, yeah, I think like 651 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: the the way that that thing it was invoked has 652 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: a lot of sort of like I don't know, it 653 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: was it was like there was this way in which 654 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: they like they became framed as like this is sort 655 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: of like this is the apotheosis of like everything that 656 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: it is to like be Asian American h and that 657 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: like that like the fact that that was under attack 658 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,439 Speaker 1: was this sort of incredible crisis, right, And I think 659 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: like I think there's like that abs gears a lot 660 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: about what was happening, which is that like if there 661 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: was one clear trend in the data, it was that 662 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: women were being attacked at like a way higher rate 663 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: than anyone else. And you know, and this has been 664 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: a thing that has sort of continued, which is like 665 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: I don't know, like there's been more attacks in the 666 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: last like few months, right, and it's it's it's it's 667 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: been a lot of like young women getting like young 668 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 1: Asian women getting pushed in front of trains and people 669 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: have just really stopped caring, like yeah, to the extent 670 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,319 Speaker 1: where like it's it's like literally a meme that you 671 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: can like watch the cycle of like the stop API 672 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: hate like signs coming up and down right, And I 673 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: don't know. I think I think the elder part of 674 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: it kind of like it obscured a lot of what 675 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: was actually happening. Yeah. I feel like the last incident 676 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: that really made a splash in the media was, um, 677 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: the murder of Christina Una is that her I forget 678 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: what her last name is, but um, Christina Una Lee 679 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: um getting murdered in Chinatown. And this was already a 680 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: year ago, um, And I haven't really heard anything since. 681 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,959 Speaker 1: Like I see things in the local news that where 682 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: I live in Queens recently how to a couple of attacks, 683 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: um just a week ago, I think, But it didn't 684 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: make the national news or anything. Yeah. And I think 685 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: the way that the kind of like hierarchy of victimhood 686 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: I guess affected that like has had I you know, 687 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's the biggest, like single reason why 688 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: everyone has sort of stopped caring. But like, I like, 689 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: I think the sort of stop API hate like that 690 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: moment kind of only happened because there was this sort 691 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: of backlash against like there's this backlash against Black Lives 692 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: Matter and against the insurrection and people needed another people 693 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: needed a kind of like ideologically safe like thing, like 694 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: way of demonstrating like how good their politics were or whatever. 695 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: But I think it definitely contributed to sort of why 696 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: like stuff has been abandoned. And I also wanted to ask, 697 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: do you see this this thing, this stixation on alders. Um, 698 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,800 Speaker 1: it's happening at the same time that ancestors get invoked 699 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: a lot in like Asian American literature, especially queer literature. Um, 700 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of authors like Ocean Wong, Like, how did 701 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: ancestors become such a thing. Yeah, it's really I don't know, 702 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: I really don't understand how that happens. Like a lot 703 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: of my ancestors fucking sucked, Like I don't know, like 704 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: like I don't know how to sort of like I 705 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: don't know. I have this sort of I don't know, 706 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 1: I have this sort of weird sense of the kind 707 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: of politics at work here, which is like there's a 708 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:06,439 Speaker 1: lot of kinds of politics that I think can work 709 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: in for example, in indigenous contexts that are very very powerful, 710 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,919 Speaker 1: that don't really work in the Asian American context where 711 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 1: like like our ancestors, like if you're a Chinese, right 712 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: your ancestors did some fucked up shit, like your ancestors 713 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: did a lot of jeticides, like you you like, you know, 714 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,800 Speaker 1: and I think I think this is something that's actually 715 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: at the core of the kind of like right wing 716 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: Chinese nationalism, which is that like right wing Chinese nationalism 717 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,720 Speaker 1: is basically about the anger that China was like ceased 718 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: to be able to be an empire, because like if 719 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 1: you look at the sort of colonization process, right like 720 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: the Qing are this very very expansionist like like sort 721 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: of militarist imperial state, right like they're they're they're they're 722 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: they're like they conquered like they if they find a 723 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: bunch of wars around Tibet, they conquered shing John they 724 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: do Jedticide. They're like immediately they're pushing south. They're pushing 725 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: like they're they're basically pushing like in every direction they 726 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: can possibly push. And then they kind of like you know, 727 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: they they they hit like a pretty impressive territorial boundaries 728 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: and then their ability to do imperialism gets kind of 729 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: halted because suddenly there's other imperial powers like in the region, 730 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: and you know, and the sort of end of this 731 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: is like they they lose all these wars and you 732 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: have the start of like you have the start of 733 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,320 Speaker 1: the Century of Humiliation and all of the sort of 734 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: stuff that happens there. But it's like the actual thing 735 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: that they're like, the actual thing that the Century of 736 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: Humiliation people are humiliated about. Well, I mean the fact 737 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: that it's called the Center of Humiliation and not like 738 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, like the like the Century of Death 739 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: or something, which for people who don't know what Century 740 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: of Humiliation is. Um, So, I think it's it's I 741 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,479 Speaker 1: think that the actual I think it's like eighteen forty 742 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,760 Speaker 1: nineteen forty. There's this is sort of nationalist term around 743 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: understanding this period in which China is undergoing like you know, 744 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 1: like it is genuinely like in China are like suffering 745 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: enormous imperial violence. Um Like, I like unfathomable numbers people 746 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: die in this period. This is like the Opium but 747 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: basically a period from the Opium Wars until you know, 748 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 1: sort of through the various Japanese conquests and then sort 749 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: of ending essentially with the Revolution. But yeah, I don't know, 750 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: like I think it's interesting that it's it's understood in 751 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,879 Speaker 1: the in terms of national humiliation, in terms of sort 752 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: of like the loss of this ability to do I 753 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:33,239 Speaker 1: mean to do imperialism and instead of in sort of 754 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: terms of like the just unfathomable human suffering that went on. 755 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: And I think this all of this sort of comes 756 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:47,959 Speaker 1: back to this weird kind of intensification of nationalism kind 757 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: of among everyone in the last like especially since twenty twenty. 758 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: You know, I mean there's been there's been like a 759 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,399 Speaker 1: kind of like explicit like Chinese nationalists terms some parts 760 00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: of left, but I think I think it's really kind 761 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 1: of like hit everyone in ways that like hasn't really 762 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: been examined. There's been this kind of difficulty in having 763 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: a kind of like theoretical and cultural language to speak 764 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: about Asian American nous, partially because well because like the 765 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, I've talked about this before, right, but like 766 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 1: the the the term Asian American was created by like 767 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: third worldists, right, many of whom are a Maoists, some 768 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: of whom are certain marketist Lendinness. But like that that 769 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,400 Speaker 1: whole language just died. I mean, like you know, you know, 770 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 1: you can still find like Boba Vankian or whatever, but 771 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 1: like the sort of language is like understanding yourself was 772 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: part of the Third World, and like you know, like 773 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,439 Speaker 1: as as like a liberal national liberation movement, like that's over. 774 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: National liberation is basically dead as a politics, like and 775 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: any and anyone who tried it after a certain point 776 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: like just got called session and now just get murdered horribly. 777 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: Um and like you know, and there's there's obviously also 778 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,359 Speaker 1: the sort of like China Vietnam, Cambodia fighting each other 779 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 1: thing that that has this massive impact on that kind 780 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: of politics, and it gets replaced with um, this kind 781 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: of politics that's based that's you know, it gets sort 782 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: of replaced by like the Asian civil rights movement stuff, right, 783 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: But like there's there's no the thing is like a 784 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: rescue is it doesn't have politics, Like its politics are 785 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: completely incoherent. Like you have like you literally have these 786 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,320 Speaker 1: marches where you have like like old school like camt 787 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: Des squad guys like marching next to maoists, And it's 788 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,840 Speaker 1: like why you can you can because it's supposed to 789 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 1: be a sort of like panaty logical thing and over time, 790 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,840 Speaker 1: like all the all the ideologies they're supposed to compose 791 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: it die and but but that meant that they're like 792 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:55,399 Speaker 1: there's there's no like, there's no actual language to sort 793 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: of talk about the experience because the two sets of 794 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: vocabularies that like or like wait like frames of understanding 795 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: the struggle or just have both kind of like you're 796 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: basically collapsed or been discredited. And I think that leaves 797 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,959 Speaker 1: this whole, and people are trying to fill the whole 798 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,760 Speaker 1: by like adopting other people's politics, but like, it doesn't 799 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: work for us. I don't think, like, I I don't know, 800 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,040 Speaker 1: like I like, I think people will disagree with me 801 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: about the potential of of sort of ancestor politics and 802 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: politics of elders, but like, I don't think it does 803 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:38,200 Speaker 1: that much for us. Yeah, I think the last thing 804 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 1: that I do want to say is, you know, if 805 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: we've reached the limits of a lot of the politics 806 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:49,919 Speaker 1: that we've been seeing here, um what what what kinds 807 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 1: of politics and what kind you know, also sort of 808 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: what kind of media do you do? You do you 809 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: see as stuff that we can use to go beyond this, 810 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: because I think there is a lot of like, like, 811 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: there are a lot of like people creating good like 812 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 1: queer stuff. They're not like, yeah, actually I think I 813 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: mentioned this to you. Um. I recently watched this film 814 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 1: called Return to Soul Um. It's by a director called 815 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: Davy two, and it's about a French Korean adoptee. So 816 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,120 Speaker 1: she was adopted from Korea as a baby, I mean yeah, 817 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: as a baby by French parents and grew up in 818 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: friends And the film is like kind of a journey 819 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: of her going back to Korea and meeting her birth family. 820 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,319 Speaker 1: But it's like, it's not it doesn't fall into the 821 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 1: same sort of like family natalist politics. It's very like 822 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: deeply questioning of um, of the family, and of even 823 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:03,879 Speaker 1: like this idea that um, I guess what the sort 824 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:11,560 Speaker 1: of like wayward queer, stray Asian child like needs in 825 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,919 Speaker 1: order to heal from trauma. Like she doesn't really have 826 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,799 Speaker 1: reconciliations with either family, like either her French family that 827 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,919 Speaker 1: she comes from, Like they're very much sidelined in this film. 828 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: They just don't play that big of a role. And 829 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,799 Speaker 1: then she and then when she goes to Korea, you know, 830 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: she has these very like awkward encounters meeting her birth 831 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,479 Speaker 1: family because they're like immediately like oh, you know, we're 832 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,920 Speaker 1: so sorry. We gave you away, now you're back, you 833 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: could come live with us, And then she's just like 834 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 1: hold on, like I don't even know if I consider 835 00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,840 Speaker 1: you my family. And so it it seems to me 836 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 1: like to really depart from this like script that we've 837 00:51:55,520 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 1: become so accustomed to in Asian diasporic in a really 838 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: interesting way, I thought. And it's also a lot about music, 839 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: Like it's a very moody, music driven film. It doesn't 840 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:13,880 Speaker 1: feel that identitarian. Yeah, I would recommend everyone to watch 841 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,360 Speaker 1: it everything everyone all at once. Is we have that 842 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: we have now told the best version of that story, 843 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 1: and I think we can find you know, I would 844 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: just like like this is this is a really broad recommendation, 845 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,000 Speaker 1: but like, go watch One Car. This is this, Okay, 846 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,839 Speaker 1: this is the most film nerd I'm ever gonna get 847 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: that doesn't involve I am I suddenly blanking the name 848 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,759 Speaker 1: of the thing, Sorry, Daniel, The most film nerd I'm 849 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,000 Speaker 1: ever gonna get that doesn't involve like Commune de Paris 850 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy one is go watch One Car. Why Like 851 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,400 Speaker 1: they're they're I don't know. I I think I think 852 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,680 Speaker 1: there is something to be gained by looking at you know. 853 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean they're like looking at Hong Kong Cinema looking 854 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: at I don't know, I I like good, good, Like 855 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,840 Speaker 1: Americans have finally realized that Koreans and it was really good, 856 00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:06,600 Speaker 1: which is wonderful. Um, I'm glad, I'm glad. We're, you know, 857 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: getting to the place where people realize that it's that like, 858 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot of great stuff going on there. But 859 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: we know it is possible for Asians to tell different 860 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 1: stories because all across the world they already are, right, 861 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,760 Speaker 1: like we we are already telling stories that are different 862 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,200 Speaker 1: and more interesting than this. And I think, well then, 863 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,680 Speaker 1: and I must typically saying, like then everything everywell it was, 864 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,080 Speaker 1: but then that then the specific structure that that that 865 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: the Asian American movies fall into. And yeah, people should 866 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,640 Speaker 1: go discover them because they're great, and yeah, we can 867 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:45,000 Speaker 1: find new and better kinds of queer joy and yeah, yeah, Tiffany, 868 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:46,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us and being I 869 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,879 Speaker 1: don't know why I'm saying us as if there's more 870 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: than me here, but yeah, thank you, thank you for 871 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,320 Speaker 1: being on the show. Yeah anytime. Thank you for having 872 00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:01,680 Speaker 1: me on. And it's been a really stimulating conversation yeah, yeah, 873 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 1: this has been na could Happen Here. You can find 874 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,320 Speaker 1: us at happen Here pod on Twitter and Instagram. You 875 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: can find cool Zone Media at Coolson Media. I hope 876 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,759 Speaker 1: it's Coolson Media. I'm actually not one hundred percent surefests 877 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,240 Speaker 1: I should know this by now, I simply have not learned. 878 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:22,320 Speaker 1: Um yeah, go go go go into the world BGAU crime. 879 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 880 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,320 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 881 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,600 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 882 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 883 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,760 Speaker 1: You can find sources for it could Happen Here, updated 884 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,400 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for 885 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:44,800 Speaker 1: listening