1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 2: We're on vacation today, but that doesn't mean we don't 5 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 2: have a great show for you. The Lever's David Sirota 6 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: stuffs by to talk about his new book master Plan, 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: The Hidden Plot to legalize Corruption in America. But first 8 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 2: we'll talk to ABC News Jonathan Carl and he's going 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: to tell us all about his new book, Retribution, Donald 10 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: Trump and the campaign that changed America. 11 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: Well, Hole's politics. How are you, young Carl? 12 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 3: Doing great? Thanks for having me on. 13 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: I'm so excited, so talk to me about this book. 14 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 4: Look, as you know, and I never would have thought 15 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 4: this would have been my destiny. But this is now 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 4: the fourth book I've written on the Trump era, starting 17 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 4: with when I was covering him the first time around, 18 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 4: and I wrote Front, wrote The Trump Show, and it 19 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 4: just keeps going. This, Molly, is the I think the 20 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 4: most important of the books I've written, and certainly it 21 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,319 Speaker 4: was the most challenging. This is the longest book, it's 22 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 4: the most heavily reported book, and I think it's you know, 23 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 4: it's called Retribution. I chose that name the day after 24 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 4: Donald Trump won in November last year. And I chose 25 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 4: it for a reason. And you see it playing out 26 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 4: right now. 27 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's kind of shocking. My favorite thing 28 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: on the campaign trail was where they'd be like, well, 29 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: you don't really want to exact retribution on your enemies, 30 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: and he'd be like, no. 31 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: No, I do, I do. 32 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 5: Yes. 33 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 4: I mean we probably figured that out when he did 34 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 4: his first official rally of the campaign in Waco, Texas. 35 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 4: And at that rally, as you recall, he played on 36 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 4: the big screens behind the stage those huge jumbotron's images 37 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 4: of the January sixth attack on the Capitol, and of 38 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 4: course played the J six choir singing the national anthem. 39 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love you to just talk to us 40 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: about like, why, what we can learn from this? We 41 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: are watching retribution in real time, but what are the 42 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: sort of lessons from this book? 43 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 4: Well, there were two moments that really drove my desire 44 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 4: to do another one of these books. The first was 45 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 4: going to see Donald Trump on trial in New York 46 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 4: in that dingy one hundred Center Street courtroom where he 47 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 4: was forced to appear four days a week. Compelled to 48 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 4: be there, had to sit silently while people on the 49 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 4: stands said, you know, terrible things about him, embarrassing things 50 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 4: about him, Stormy Daniels testifying about Trump wanting to spanker 51 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 4: with a magazine with his face on the cover, and 52 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 4: also being there as Joe Biden dropped out of the race, 53 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 4: it just occurred to me that we were watching a campaign, 54 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 4: a presidential campaign unlike any other that we have ever 55 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 4: seen in American history. I mean, maybe you have to 56 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 4: go back to like nineteen twelve to find something remotely 57 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 4: as chaotic and unpredictable and also, in this case, something 58 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 4: so high stated. So I started, you know, obviously I'm 59 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 4: reporting day to day for ABC News, I'm doing my 60 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 4: day job. But as I'm doing it, I was coming 61 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 4: back to what I would want to try to tell 62 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 4: the larger story of what was really happening in this campaign, 63 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 4: with the benefit of a little bit of hindsight and 64 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 4: the time to do some more in depth reporting about 65 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 4: what was happening. And that's the product of this book. 66 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 4: I mean, it's been frankly, it's been an working on. 67 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 4: This has been an obsession of mine for over a year. 68 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 4: There's a lot that It tells you about how Donald 69 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 4: Trump came back to power and what his intention was 70 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 4: from the start to do with that power, which is 71 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 4: in large part to get even at all of those 72 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 4: who he believes have wronged him. 73 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: What does it end? 74 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know where it ends. 75 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what all of us are thinking all 76 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: the time. 77 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 4: Right Yeah, And I you know, I feel like I've 78 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 4: known Trump for more than thirty years. I've I've spent 79 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 4: so much of my professional life now, you know, cross 80 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 4: I'm ling him. I can tell you a lot about 81 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 4: Trump how it ends. I can't really tell you obviously, 82 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 4: you have all this talk now that he doesn't want 83 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 4: to leave the White House, the abandon talking about, you know, 84 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 4: him running again in twenty twenty eight. Donald Trump's not 85 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 4: ruling out trying to I mean, constitution, what constitution? You know, 86 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 4: staying in power. I don't really think that's where he's going. 87 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 4: But here's the thing, Molly, how does he pass the baton? 88 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 4: At what point does he stand up and make it official? 89 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: I'm out, I'm not running JD. It's yours, Marco, it's yours, 90 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 4: or you two get to fight it out and whoever else. 91 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: But you know, RFK Junior r f K. 92 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 4: Believe me, I don't know how that happens, because the 93 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 4: minute that happens, he becomes a lame duck and the 94 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 4: attention goes to somewhere else. I covered the Obama White House, 95 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 4: and let me tell you, twenty fifteen twenty sixteen at 96 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 4: the Obama White House was often like a ghost town. 97 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 4: I mean, they were still doing things, but nobody was 98 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 4: paying any attention. You know, poor Josh Ernest, who was 99 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 4: the press secretary at the time, would have these hour 100 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 4: and a half briefings. Hardly any of the regular correspondents 101 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 4: were in there covering them, and they weren't really making 102 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 4: any news because the attention was all on at first 103 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 4: Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton and the next you know 104 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 4: who would be the next president, and then of course 105 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 4: eventually Trump. 106 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: That is attention, right if he admits he's not running again, 107 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the man behind the curtain, I 108 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: mean that gone. 109 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 4: I mean, look, what really drove the reporting in this 110 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 4: book is seeing how Donald Trump left office disgraced a 111 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 4: pria he was banished on social media. I mean, think 112 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 4: about that. He was banished on social media and most 113 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 4: of the major companies in this country announced that they 114 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 4: would not be donating money, not just not to Trump, 115 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 4: but to anybody who was aligned with Trump in challenging 116 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 4: the twenty twenty election. 117 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 3: He was gone. He was a pariah. 118 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 4: This is why when Kevin McCarthy went to visit him 119 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 4: shortly after he left office, it was such a huge story. 120 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 4: Oh my god, God, what's Kevin McCarthy doing. And you know, 121 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 4: he managed to recapture the Republican Party in a way 122 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 4: that he had never captured it in the first place. 123 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 4: This entirely, you know, he has this power, and you 124 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 4: know how he managed to do that, and how he 125 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 4: wants to use that power. I think points to a 126 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 4: very different second term than what we saw on Trump's 127 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 4: first term. 128 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: Did he ever call you? 129 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 5: He does? 130 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 3: He calls me. I call him, I tell you. 131 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 4: One of the strange things that I started to do 132 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 4: during the campaign was during the fall campaign, I would 133 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 4: sometimes call him every two or three days, and there 134 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 4: was a much higher percentage chance of him answering the 135 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 4: phone than say the deputy press secretary of the Kamala 136 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 4: Harris campaign. Mostly it's me calling him, but there were occasions, 137 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 4: and there are occasions where where he calls me, and 138 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 4: it's a highly unusual thing. 139 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 3: I want to go. 140 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: Back to the sentence you just said that it's more 141 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: likely to get down Trump on the phone that it 142 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: was to get the deputy press secretary of the Kamala 143 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: Harris campaign on the phone, because I think that is 144 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: part of why come won. 145 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't. 146 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 4: I don't think there's any question. You know, we were 147 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 4: talking about Jeb Bush a moment ago. It actually kind 148 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: of brings back memories of Jeb Bush back when those 149 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 4: in those salad days, when he was the Republican front runner. 150 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 4: He was very hard to get through too, and it 151 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 4: did precious few interviews. His campaign events were tightly choreographed, 152 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 4: just like Hillary Clinton's were, And certainly I think Kamala 153 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 4: Harris did that even more so than those. I mean, 154 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 4: when you think about her, she and I tracked. Keep 155 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 4: in mind that this book is about what happened to 156 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 4: Biden and about and about Harris's quick rise and fall. 157 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 4: And you know, Harris gives the sense that one hundred 158 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 4: and seven days she ran out of time, she didn't 159 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 4: have enough time. In fact, it was the reverse. In 160 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 4: fact what happened is she was strongest during those first say, 161 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 4: thirty to forty days, and then tapered off. And part 162 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 4: of it was this intensely careful, precious few interviews, precious 163 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 4: few interactions with the press when Trump was out there 164 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 4: for everybody. 165 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: And if you do that, if you do very few interviews, 166 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: then every minute you talk to anyone is scrutinized within 167 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: an inch of its life. 168 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 5: Yeah. 169 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: So, I mean you remember the first interview, which was 170 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 4: with Dana Bash, right, and it was she comes in, 171 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 4: she effectively wins the nomination. You know, there's no convention yet, 172 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 4: but she's effectively won the nomination and does absolutely nothing. 173 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 4: And for a period of a couple of weeks. The 174 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 4: best answer that I could get is that, you know, 175 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: she was spending much of her time preparing for this 176 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 4: big first scene in an interview. 177 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: When she disappeared its August. I remember in August thinking 178 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: where is she? 179 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 5: Why? 180 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: Why is she not out there? And you know what's 181 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: so interesting is that Hillary Clinton had a couple of 182 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: weeks too in August where she's effectively disappeared. You'll remember 183 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: Hillary's house, yeah, right, And maybe she was sick, maybe 184 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: she was not sick, but it didn't matter because if 185 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: you create a vacuum, anyone who's around will fill it. 186 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, to be entirely fair here, Harris had 187 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 4: a tremendous first couple of weeks. 188 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: Tremendous. 189 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 4: I mean it was people who had thought that she 190 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 4: didn't have what it takes or was going to be 191 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 4: a terrible candidate were like, wait a minute, where was 192 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 4: this Kamala Harris. 193 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 3: She's good, She's got it down, so. 194 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: Uh and then it was disappearing at least and then it. 195 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 4: Was disappearing, and that she does the CNN interview and 196 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 4: because to your point, she hasn't been doing interviews, not 197 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: just as a candidate, but really not even as vice president. 198 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 4: I mean it was not a strong interview. 199 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: Right, and picked apart within an inch of It's like 200 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: because if you're Donald Trump and you're doing I mean, 201 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 1: like I think about how much media Donald Trump does 202 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: in a day when he's not calling journalists and you know, 203 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: I mean three four hours a day, I mean full 204 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: spray of this that a press conference, and then those 205 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: like insane cabinet meetings that are televised, which are like 206 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: you know a little North Korea, but you still have 207 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: a visual of the guy out there. And so you 208 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: say something crazy, if you've said seven thousand other things 209 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: since then, it becomes sort of hard to keep trap. 210 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's that, you know, it's that Bannon esque 211 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 4: flood the zone. You know, he may do five things 212 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 4: that are completely crazy and or you know, get would 213 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 4: get picked apart and get hit, but he does twenty 214 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 4: five other things, so you forget about those things he 215 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 4: just did. I mean, and it's as a journalist, you're 216 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: just you've got not just a fire hose coming at you, 217 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 4: but you have ten fire hoses coming at you. 218 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 3: By the way. 219 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 4: Also, why to me it was so important to write 220 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 4: this book is to try to get a little bit 221 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 4: of a step back and what did we just go through? 222 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 4: What did we just live through? And to go through 223 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 4: and take the time and to pick apart the key 224 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 4: moments that brought us to this point in American history, 225 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 4: and to try to go back and see what was 226 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 4: really happening behind the scenes. That's what I tried to 227 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 4: do with this book. 228 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: This is a very different white House than Trump one 229 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: point zero, like, very different, different, priority is different, everything 230 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: different on fetteredness. So explain to me what you see 231 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: as the sort of main players in this White House. 232 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 4: Well, the first thing that makes it entirely different is 233 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 4: he is actually trying to fundamentally change things. He's going 234 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 4: to have an impact on this country and by the way, 235 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 4: also on the physical layout of the White House that 236 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 4: he never had in the first term. You don't say, 237 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 4: I mean, I mean the first term, all the chaos, 238 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 4: all the attention, all that took place when he left office, 239 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 4: he left office, it was ephemeral. There was not that 240 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 4: much of a lasting impact. That is not the case already, 241 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 4: just you know, less than a year into this White House. 242 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 4: And the two other biggest factors are he comes in 243 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 4: with an agenda that was part of what he was 244 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 4: into last time, but it wasn't central really, which is 245 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 4: to get back at the people that screwed him over 246 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 4: in his minds. I mean, he faced an election where 247 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: he was either going to maybe go to prison or 248 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 4: become the most powerful president that we have seen in 249 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 4: our lifetimes, thanks to a Supreme Court immunity decision, thanks 250 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 4: to a Congress that is entirely obsequious, and going to 251 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 4: do whatever he wants, the most powerful president of our lifetime. 252 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 4: So he becomes that, and he's going to use that 253 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 4: power to get back at everybody that investigated him, that 254 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 4: attacked him, the Republicans who tried to rein him in. 255 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 4: So not just this isn't just prosecutors and Democratic opponents 256 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 4: who impeached him or any of that. This is also 257 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 4: the Republicans that tried to rain him in enemies list. 258 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: High on that enemy's list are people like well, Jim Comey. 259 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 4: I wouldn't be surprised to see people like General Kelly 260 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 4: on that list, Mark Milly on that list, people who 261 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 4: served in his administration, Bill Barr. You had Bannon the 262 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 4: other day saying that Barr should go to prison, that 263 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 4: Bill Barr should be prosecuted. Is talk about that? 264 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: No, I don't want to think about that. How much 265 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: is Bannon world talking to Trump World? 266 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 4: Well, I don't know about Bannon World or Trump World, 267 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 4: but Bannon is talking to Trump absolutely? 268 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: Wow, all right? 269 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 4: And there is absolutely a you know, a line there. 270 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 4: And also Bannon two things. One, he does have an 271 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: influence on Trump. He makes sure that his show he's 272 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 4: on for four hours. 273 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: A day on the war and better him than May. 274 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 4: And when he has the key messages that he wants, 275 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 4: they go to Natalie Harp Trump's assistant and they go 276 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 4: to Trump and Trump watches them and also. 277 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: Natalie prints it out right. 278 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 4: Well, these are video clips, so she she sets up 279 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 4: the video clips the human prins. 280 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 281 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 4: But but I describe a scene in the book that 282 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,359 Speaker 4: is really kind of mind blowing that helps you understand 283 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 4: what happened when Zelensky came to the White House in 284 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 4: February and you had that big confrontation. Well, in advance 285 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: of that, there was a National Security meeting with Vance 286 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 4: heg Seth, Rubio, Waite, Coough, Besant, then the National Security 287 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: Advisor Mike Waltz, and their meeting at the White House 288 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 4: with Trump and they're going over that minerals deal that 289 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 4: we're going to sign with the Ukraine, and Trump says, 290 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 4: get Steve Bannon on the phone. Waltz calls Bannon. Anyway, 291 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 4: they go back and forth. Bannon like puts Waltz to 292 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 4: h to voicemail. Then Trump calls Bannon himself on his 293 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: phone and Bannon takes the call and for the next 294 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 4: half hour, Bannon is basically lecturing the National Security team 295 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 4: on how they can't trust that punk Zelensky, which is 296 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 4: what Bannon calls him, and how if you give him 297 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 4: a you know, if you do a security he's gonna 298 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 4: want he's gonna want a natural resources deal. He's going 299 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 4: to want security guarantees. You cannot trust him, you cannot 300 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 4: do him. And that really Again, this has never been 301 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 4: reported before, but I think that that incident, and I've 302 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: talked to many people that were involved in that set 303 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 4: the stage for the confrontation with Zelenski. And that was Bannon. 304 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 4: He's not in the White House, he's not on the 305 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 4: National security team, but in that moment he had more 306 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: influence than the national security advisor of the Secretary of. 307 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: State John Carl Thank you, Malli, I. 308 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: Love talking to you. Thank you for having me on. 309 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: David Sirota is the founder of The Lever, the screenplay 310 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: author of Don't Look Up, and the author of Master Planned, 311 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: The Hidden Plot to Legalize Corruption in America. 312 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Dave, Thank you, thanks for having me. 313 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: I have so many places I want to start because 314 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: it's so bad, but let's start with John Roberts, the 315 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: man who just wants to cut away our freedoms versus 316 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: he wants to use a scalpel rather than a chainsaw, 317 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: but he'll use a chainsaw if he needs to. 318 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 5: Yeah. 319 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 6: I mean, we're on the twenty year anniversary now of 320 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 6: John Roberts' takeover of the Supreme Court, which is that's 321 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 6: really how you make yourself feel old is to realize 322 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 6: it's been twenty years, and I think people have forgotten 323 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 6: what that few month period was like in two thousand 324 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 6: and five, where there was Sandra Day O'Connor and William 325 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 6: Rehnquist were suddenly out of the picture and John Roberts 326 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 6: and Sam Alito were installed very very quickly on that court. 327 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 6: And soon after that, of course, came the Citizens United decision, 328 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 6: which transformed American politics almost overnight. I mean, our book 329 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 6: is about the master plan that conservatives hatched over fifty 330 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 6: years to deregulate the campaign finance system, kill off anti 331 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 6: corruption laws, anti bribery laws, and Citizens United was one 332 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 6: of the big obviously earning points, again engineered by John Roberts. 333 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 5: And the thing that drives me crazy. 334 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 6: And probably drives anyone crazy who remembers back in two 335 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 6: thousand and five was how he was presented as this reasonable, 336 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 6: almost moderate candidate, and I remember distinctly sort of trying 337 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 6: to sound the alarm in the position that I was 338 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 6: in like, this guy is not some easy going moderate. 339 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 6: This guy is a movement conservative. Arguably, I guess you'd 340 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 6: call him that. Maybe the second movement conservative put on 341 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 6: the court. I mean, you had Scalia, But this guy 342 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 6: was sort of groomed by the conservative movement to be 343 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 6: everything that he has come to be. And to my mind, 344 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 6: there are three priorities when you look at John Roberts' career, right, 345 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 6: I mean to really understand John Roberts passions. There is 346 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 6: his passion to destroy and dismantle voting rights laws. 347 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: We really dosate the voting rights law. 348 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 5: Really that he's been working on it forever. 349 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 6: There is his passion to close the courthouse doors to 350 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 6: anyone who is inconvenient to political and corporate power. But 351 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 6: by that I mean his war on what's known as standing. 352 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 6: You are not allowed in this court. We won't even 353 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 6: adjudicate your issue because you do not have standing. Again, 354 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 6: that is a John Roberts passion. And then the other 355 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 6: John Roberts passion is equating and enshrining the connection between 356 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 6: money and free speech, the idea that money is a 357 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 6: constitutionally protected form of speech, which was started before John Robertson. 358 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: Right, it feels like a Mitch McConnell. 359 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 6: Yes, Mitch McConnell, the Buckley case in the seventies. But 360 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 6: John Roberts really has taken that the Roberts Court has 361 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 6: to its logical extreme. 362 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: In John Roberts defense, he has very rich donors. 363 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 5: I guess that is it. In his defense, I. 364 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: Mean, these guys need of ation every once in a while. 365 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: And as Thomas has shown us, you know, those are 366 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: re's are expensive. I know. 367 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 5: And the thing, the thing that kind of blows me away. 368 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 6: Although the Court, as we traced in our book, is 369 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 6: is doing these rulings, deregulating. 370 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 5: The campaign finance system. 371 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 6: And narrowing the interpretation of anti bribery laws down the 372 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 6: to the point where. 373 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: Last se ribes are they bribed? 374 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 5: No, they're protuities. Right. 375 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 6: I have to say this out loud repeatedly because it's 376 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 6: almost like people won't believe it. In the last court term, 377 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 6: there was a case about a local official who had 378 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 6: gotten a payment from a government contractor. After the local 379 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 6: official delivered the government contract to this contractor gotten a payment, 380 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 6: and the court ruled that that was not a bribe, 381 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 6: that was a so called legal critulaluit. 382 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 5: It's a tip, right. 383 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: I just want to follow that up for one second 384 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: because it comes back in season two, which is Tom 385 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: Holman is wept up in an FBI investigation where he 386 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: is not the target, right, he just wanders in and 387 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: accepts a bag of fifty thousand dollars in cash, and 388 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: they say this is the Biden Justice Department says, well, 389 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: we may not even be able to prosecute this because 390 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court just ruled that bribes aren't bribes. 391 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 6: I mean, that's the world we are living in now. 392 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 6: And again, to underscore the point you alluded to, these 393 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 6: rulings are coming down at the very time that some 394 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 6: of these justices engineering them are accepting lavish gifts from 395 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 6: billionaires who have business in some cases before the. 396 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: Court in all cases right, or they're connected to someone 397 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: who does right. 398 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 5: While they are legalizing corruption. 399 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 6: They are effectively engaging in the kinds of practices without, 400 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 6: by the way, disclosure. We only know about that because 401 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 6: of reporting. They weren't in Thomas's case, he didn't disclose it, 402 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera. So they are in an undisclosed 403 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 6: way engaging in the kind of behavior that they are 404 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 6: issuing rulings legalizing I mean it's mind blowing, yes it is. 405 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: And yet it is also very much exactly what you 406 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: think of when you think of these guys. Right. The 407 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: thing that bothers me the most is the idea that 408 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: they are like, well, this is textualism. 409 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 5: Right, which is crazy to me. Right, I mean, that 410 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 5: doesn't make any sense. 411 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 6: The idea that the founders in the Constitution kind of 412 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 6: legalized bribery or equated by the way money with speech, 413 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 6: it's just severed from any textual reality. Frank, I'm not 414 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 6: a constitutional scholar here, but like the idea that money 415 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 6: is speech, the idea, by the way, that corporations have 416 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 6: constitutional rights is simply not in the Constitution at all. 417 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 6: And the court used to distinguish between sort of corporate 418 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 6: speech and human speech. The Court used to distinguish between 419 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 6: actual human beings and corporate persons. That's all been thrown out, 420 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 6: and we have to ask the question of why has 421 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 6: it been thrown out. It's because throwing it out provides 422 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 6: disproportionate political power to essentially conservatives who know that they 423 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 6: can't legislatively pass their unpopular agenda through democratic, small d 424 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 6: democratic institutions. In other words. I think this is a 425 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 6: missed point a lot like why is the conservative movement 426 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 6: doing it this way? Why do they want to legalize corruption, 427 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 6: Why do they want to deregulate the campaign finance system. 428 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 6: It's because if you realize that your agenda tax cuts 429 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 6: for the wealthy, et cetera, et cetera. If you realize 430 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 6: your agenda is wildly unpopular among voters who were supposed 431 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 6: to be in control of things in a democratic republic. 432 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 6: If you realize it's unpopular, then you have to rig 433 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 6: the game to make sure that those policies can go 434 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 6: into effect, and that allow you to circumvent the democratic 435 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 6: institutions that would say no to those policies. 436 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: I think that's right. This court seems, especially the last 437 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: couple shadow dock at rulings we've seen, they have been 438 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: so blatantly partisan. It would be hard for me. And 439 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: I am an optimist, a person who has lots of 440 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: friends who used to be in the federal society, for 441 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: whom they really want you to believe that Emmy is 442 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: smart and Kavanaugh has some kind of ethos. But everything 443 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: I've seen over in this term especially has just been partisan. 444 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 6: Hacker right, agreed, and now we've got a term coming 445 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 6: up talking about corruption, where jd Vance has quietly and 446 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 6: deliberately given the Supreme Court an opportunity to go even 447 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 6: beyond Citizens United and eliminate all of what's ever left 448 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 6: of campaign finance rules. It's incredible that this case hasn't 449 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 6: gotten more attention. 450 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: What's the case. 451 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 6: It's about the NRSC, the National Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee 452 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 6: versus the f V. 453 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 5: That's technically what it is. 454 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 6: Essentially, jd Vance went into court and said that a 455 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 6: prohibition or a limit on how much party committees can 456 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 6: coordinate their spending with candidates. He's arguing that's unconstitutional. Now 457 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 6: people hear that and they're like, oh, that's kind of esoteric. 458 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 6: That's kind of like, what does that really mean. The 459 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 6: point is it's a rule about how much donors can 460 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 6: pass through their money to candidates through a party. The 461 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 6: idea of the limits was to say you can't use 462 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 6: a party committee to get around campaign contribution limits. 463 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 5: That's what's at issue here, right. 464 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 6: The Supreme Court has long held up that super PACs 465 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 6: can spend what they want, but if you want to 466 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 6: give money directly to a candidate, there are limits there 467 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 6: because that can be a corrupting force. Vance's case is 468 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 6: designed to give the court a way to do away 469 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 6: with all of the remaining campaign finance limits, the remaining 470 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 6: limitations on donations. This would essentially take Citizens United and 471 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 6: put it on steroids at a time that polls tell 472 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 6: us the public across the political spectrum, by the way, 473 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 6: the public hates Citizens United. And so you have Dvance 474 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 6: going into court at a moment when the public loathes 475 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 6: Citizens United and is giving the now six to three 476 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 6: court the chance to go way beyond Citizens United. And 477 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 6: I don't know what's going to come in this case, 478 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 6: but I'm not feeling all that optimistic because get this, 479 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 6: the Biden administration was defending existing law. When Trump came in, 480 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 6: Trump's Department of Justice switched sides and says it is 481 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 6: refusing to defend the current law. And way it gets 482 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 6: even more crazy. So then the Supreme Court has to 483 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 6: appoint a lawyer to represent the FEC and they appoint 484 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 6: a former John Roberts clerk who was clerking for Roberts 485 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 6: during the original Citizens United decisions. So, in other words, 486 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 6: the conservative movement has triangulated the entire case. They engineered 487 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 6: the case they have the Supreme Court, and a conservative 488 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 6: movement lawyer is now the defense lawyer for the existing law. 489 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: I want to talk about where we go next. There's 490 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: another case that's in front of the Supreme Court that 491 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: I think is sort of my favorite case of this 492 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: semester because it's the one where than the most conflicted, 493 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: and that is the tariff case. So you've got Coke 494 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: Brothers versus Trump, and this is I think my favorite 495 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: case because this Supreme Court is so captured. It's a 496 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: captured institution period paragraph it's owned by wealthy conservative donors, 497 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: but it's also owned by Donald Trump. And here's a 498 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: case where the wealthy conservative donors want the tariffs gone 499 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: because the tariffs are terrible for business and make no sense. 500 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: And Donald Trump wants ultimate power via the unitary executive theory. 501 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: He is a god king and he can use these terriffs. 502 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: And you know, the thing that I think Trump loves 503 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: so much about tariffs is that it is really an 504 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: opportunity to pick winners and losers. You know, It's one 505 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: thing to do crony capitalism with our economy, but he 506 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: can do crony capitalism now with other countries' economies. So 507 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: how do you think this goes down. 508 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 6: It's a great question, and I agree with you. Trump 509 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 6: likes tariffs because it forces other countries. And by the way, 510 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 6: big donors donor corporations to kiss his ring. There was 511 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 6: a study that we reported on at the lever from 512 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 6: the tariffs in the first term, in which it showed 513 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 6: that the companies that donated money to Trump and the 514 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 6: Republicans were more likely to get exemptions from the tariffs. 515 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 5: In a sense, it's a corruption scheme. Now here's the thing. 516 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 6: You're totally right to hone in on the fact that 517 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court, the conservative Supreme Court, is caught between 518 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 6: always wanting to do what big money wants and always 519 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 6: wanting to give Donald Trump, and not just Trump, but 520 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 6: give the executive branch, certainly their executive branch when it's 521 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 6: controlled by Republicans, always wanting to give the executive branch power. 522 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: And also they don't want Trump to be mad at 523 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: them totally. I mean, like this is an entire culture 524 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: of Americans who are scared of Trump's tweets exactly. 525 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 6: So you've got these two conflicting forces. And what's really 526 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 6: interesting about the Supreme Court. Before we get to the 527 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 6: tariff stuff is to look at what they've done with 528 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 6: Trump's attempt to remove independent agency appointees the court. What's 529 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 6: really fascinating here is that the court has allowed Trump 530 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 6: to remove appointees at the agencies that are problematic to 531 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 6: corporate power, the FTC, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, but 532 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 6: they have not allowed Trump to remove a member of 533 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 6: the Federal Reserve. 534 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: Board because that would be bad for the markets exactly. 535 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 6: So what was fascinating was they somehow made up this 536 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 6: idea that the FTC commissioners are not independent, so they 537 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 6: can be thrown out ps they're annoying to corporations, but 538 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 6: nobody on the Federal Reserve Board aka Wall. 539 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 5: Streets Institution can be removed at all. 540 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 6: So I wonder if they're going to try to creatively 541 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 6: do something visa VI tariffs where they sort of say 542 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 6: something like these specific tariffs are not allowed aka business 543 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 6: doesn't like them, we can get rid of them, but 544 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 6: the president. 545 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 5: Still retains the power. 546 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 6: Like I wonder if they're going to try to find 547 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 6: some ridiculous middle ground in a binary situation. 548 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: Tariff sybey INDs but not batteries or something. 549 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 5: Something like that. 550 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 6: I mean I think you're totally right that it is 551 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 6: fascinating that they've built this machine and now the machine 552 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 6: is like sort of in a sense, at war with itself. 553 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: I mean, that is the one bright spot in this 554 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: whole fucking disaster, is that you see MAGA is so 555 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: drunk with power that they're coming after each other. I mean, 556 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal, the woke Wall Street Journal, perhaps 557 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: you've heard of it, owned by Rupert Murdoch, had a 558 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: piece today about Laura Lumer targeting MAGA. 559 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 5: Trump like was a story for like three hours. 560 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 6: But Trump going to war with Leonard Leo was like 561 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 6: kind of blew my mind. And for those who don't, 562 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 6: I know, Leonard Leo was the conservative activist. 563 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: He's how we got here. Leonard Leo is how we 564 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: have a court that rubber stamps everything Donald Trump wants 565 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: to do. 566 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 6: Exactly So, Leonard Leo is the conservative activist who packs 567 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 6: the court. Over twenty twenty five years, Federalist Society guy, 568 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 6: some of the Federalist Society judges at a certain point 569 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 6: once in a while sort of said hey, Trump, you 570 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 6: can't do this. Trump freaks out and essentially disavows. Leonard 571 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 6: Leo says he's like a bad guy. 572 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 5: Right. It's like I've used the example of the French 573 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 5: Revolution dynamic. 574 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 6: It feels like the Committee on Public Justice, right Like, 575 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 6: Robespierre's running the Committee on Public Justice and he's getting 576 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 6: his way. You know, they're doing the guillotine to everybody, 577 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 6: and then all of a sudden, it accelerates, it accelerates, 578 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 6: and then Robespierre's head is in the guillotine, right like, 579 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 6: metaphorically speaking, like the revolution quote unquote is sort of 580 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 6: accelerates so fast that it starts eating itself. And I 581 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 6: feel like that's what's happening right now. I don't know, 582 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 6: like we're in the abyss. I don't know where we 583 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 6: go from here. 584 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because I feel like we agree on 585 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: a lot of things about how we got here, and 586 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: like the many ways in which Democrats were unable to 587 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: bring a knife to a knife fight and brought a 588 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: stuffed animal to a knife fight, and then we're like, 589 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: just we're so disappointed by Republicans doing fascism. It does 590 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: strike me though, that all this energy they had saved 591 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: up for Dems and now Dems were like, we can't 592 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: legislate this, and so now they're using it on each other. 593 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, look the story of the Democrats. Let's 594 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 6: go back to where we started, John Roberts twenty years ago. 595 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 6: I'm old enough to remember that lots and lots of 596 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 6: Democrats voted to put John Roberts. 597 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 5: On that court. 598 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 6: And I remember back then, and I was a much 599 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 6: younger person. I was looking around being like what am 600 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 6: I missing here? Like why are they saying such nice 601 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 6: things about this person and helping the Republicans install him 602 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 6: on the court. And I don't think that's like a 603 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 6: historical anomaly. I think it was kind of emblematic of 604 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 6: this idea that the party and its leaders believed that 605 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 6: simply by adhering to so called norms, everything would at 606 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 6: a certain point revert back to normal. At this point, clearly, 607 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 6: that calculation, if you can call it, that was wrong. 608 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 6: I do understand people say it wasn't that they were wrong, 609 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 6: it's that they were a lot of them. 610 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: Were complicit, right, I don't agree. 611 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 5: Maybe not all of them were complicit. 612 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 6: I think the term doesn't necessarily mean you were sort 613 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 6: of deliberately in on it. 614 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 5: It's that you were willing to tolerate it if you. 615 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 6: Got to, For instance, keep your job in the Senate 616 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 6: or keep your job in Congress. You're not willing to 617 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 6: actually risk anything real to you yourself to stop this, 618 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 6: That to me is a form of complicity. And I'm 619 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 6: asking the question now I think everyone should be as like, 620 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 6: when are Democrats going to actually risk something? And by that, 621 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 6: I mean when are they going to actually really put 622 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 6: themselves out there to risk their own political cares to actually, 623 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 6: in a real sense, try to stop this. We've seen 624 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 6: very very few efforts that rise to this level of 625 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 6: an emergency. 626 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: But I do want to just say, because I've been 627 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: very hard on Democrats and everyone is mad at me, 628 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: that the shutdown for them is a huge gamble and 629 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: it seems to be for today getting people to talk 630 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: about healthcare. 631 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 5: Look, I hope you're right. I think it is. 632 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 6: We haven't seen them do something like this in a 633 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 6: very long time, and I think it's better late than never. 634 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 6: But I would just tell you this, they're not doing 635 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 6: that because they're nice. They're doing that because people are 636 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 6: mad at them. The latest pupole shows that more Democratic 637 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 6: voters are mad at their own party than we've seen 638 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 6: in a generation or two. So that anger even if 639 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 6: some of your listeners are like mad at you for 640 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 6: being mad at Democrats. That wressure is actually necessary to 641 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 6: get them to stand up. 642 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And quite frankly, Chuck Schumer saw the 643 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: right on the wall and knew we had to do 644 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: it from March. But let us give them a tiny 645 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: bit of credit. 646 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 5: I agree. 647 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 6: And the healthcare stuff is a disaster if it is 648 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 6: allowed to go into a fact like if those cuts happen, 649 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 6: I mean we're talking about doubling people's healthcare premiums. That 650 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 6: is something that I think is worth doing what they're doing. 651 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: And Trump is not going to make the price of 652 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: eggs any cheaper. 653 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 5: No, He's making everything more expensive. 654 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: Thank you, Dave Saroda, thank you, thanks for having me. 655 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 656 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 657 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 658 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 659 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.