Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, thanks for pulling up a chair today on
Speaker 1: Table for Two. We're not in Hollywood. We're actually just
Speaker 1: a little south of Lincoln Center. And if you didn't
Speaker 1: know this, Lincoln Center is my favorite place on earth.
Speaker 2: What's going to be a good thing to eat while
Speaker 2: being interviewed by Bruce.
Speaker 1: Yes, Today we're having lunch with a gentleman who was
Speaker 1: the principal dancer for the New York City Ballet from
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five to two thousand and eight. Do you
Speaker 1: understand the magnitude of that He's one of the greatest
Speaker 1: living ballet dancers ever and he is currently the president
Speaker 1: of the most prestigious arts school in New York, Juilliard.
Speaker 2: What if I hadn't tried dancing?
Speaker 3: Great?
Speaker 2: What if I don't know, I was very argumentative. I
Speaker 2: guess I'd be a lawyer or something.
Speaker 3: You know, we're having lunch with Damian Wetzel.
Speaker 1: So sit back, grab a glass of rose, enjoy this
Speaker 1: beautiful afternoon in New York City with me and Damian Wetzel.
Speaker 1: I'm Bruce Bosi and this is my podcast Table for Two.
Speaker 1: We're having lunch with I didn't realize the length of
Speaker 1: time that you were at New York City Ballet, and
Speaker 1: that you were a principal dancer dancing your ass off
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 3: It's two thousand and eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I moved here in eighty four to go to
Speaker 2: the school American Valley, which was City Valley School and
Speaker 2: kind of in an early full circle that used to
Speaker 2: be in Juilliard. It was like the school was housed
Speaker 2: in Juilliard. So when people ask did you go to Juilliard,
Speaker 2: I'm like, kind of because SAB was on the third fourth, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was its own like school within a school,
Speaker 2: but we shared a cafeteria and it was like I
Speaker 2: was around all the musicians and actors and dancers that
Speaker 2: were part of Juilliard. And so I was eighty four
Speaker 2: and then I joined City Ballet, you know, May eighty five.
Speaker 2: Ballet was sort of one thing among many. Definitely not
Speaker 2: the intention like this is going to be a dancer, No, no, no.
Speaker 2: I think it was literally that I was bouncing off
Speaker 2: the walls and there were some choices to be made
Speaker 2: about how to spend time, and that seemed like a
Speaker 2: culturally kind of exciting way to maybe try.
Speaker 3: Yea, I know, the amount of physical work.
Speaker 1: I don't know it because I've never done it, but
Speaker 1: I appreciate it and I feel like that going to
Speaker 1: school and then studying ballet, like you guys are athletes
Speaker 1: in a way that nobody else was an athlete, and
Speaker 1: our culture doesn't even actually categorize you as athletes.
Speaker 2: I feel so. I remember once being an eighth grade
Speaker 2: science class, and I don't know how this happened, but
Speaker 2: the science teacher was talking about sports and put up
Speaker 2: a picture on the projector of Edward Vallella so Vera.
Speaker 2: Villella was one of the greatest male dancers America has
Speaker 2: ever produced. He and Jackdams were like their initial principal
Speaker 2: dancers for balancing at City Ballet. So this is my
Speaker 2: first kind of exposure. In some ways, I knew who
Speaker 2: Eddie Vellella was. He's definitely an idol, you know, along
Speaker 2: with like Barishnikoff and other people, but Eddie's a little
Speaker 2: bit earlier generation. And there was a Life magazine cover
Speaker 2: of Eddie Valella flying through the air, and I think,
Speaker 2: so again, is it true or is it my memory?
Speaker 2: But the headline was is this the world's greatest athlete?
Speaker 2: And my science class was like full who are like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is what you do bingo. It was like new
Speaker 2: respect starts to creep in and it was something else.
Speaker 3: Is that science teacher too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, missus Pollock? Yeah, I think that was her name. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's all. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You also came into as young adults now dancing. You
Speaker 1: were dancing in the mid eighties, which became a very
Speaker 1: dark period in the arts because many people were dying.
Speaker 2: People are dying.
Speaker 3: What was that experience.
Speaker 1: How did that affect I mean, I'm sure there were dancers,
Speaker 1: so you were dancing with that would have been.
Speaker 2: Yeah, some of the best we lost. We lost people
Speaker 2: in City Ballet. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful guys. By the time
Speaker 2: I'm in, you know, in my late teens, and this
Speaker 2: is the AIDS epidemic is going on. It's again through
Speaker 2: the lens of all the artists. Are you know, disproportionately
Speaker 2: being affected by this. When you walk into State Theater,
Speaker 2: which we shared with the New York City Opera, which
Speaker 2: doesn't exist anymore, and the notices day after day after
Speaker 2: day of the people, you know, the memorials, and it
Speaker 2: was just like you know, and then the art starts
Speaker 2: getting made. Then you've got Larry Kramer, Tony and the
Speaker 2: things that are starting to happen that reflect right work
Speaker 2: and the movement an AIDS walk and I remember Heather
Speaker 2: other created the team, so the AIDS watch. It was like,
Speaker 2: let's have a team that walks, and you know, so
Speaker 2: City Ballet had a team and we would you know,
Speaker 2: and it was like a sense of community fighting the
Speaker 2: futility of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Damien, when did you know I've now stepped
Speaker 1: into this room? When did you know, like, okay, I'm
Speaker 1: actually now a principal dance room.
Speaker 3: What was it a ballet? Was the evolution of being like,
Speaker 3: oh I'm here.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a a couple of things that
Speaker 2: kind of were signals. What was simply the ability to
Speaker 2: do it, like, you know, because to get a chance
Speaker 2: and be able to succeed, it's not a guarantee. And
Speaker 2: so getting some key parts Ruby's was one of them.
Speaker 2: I was still in the Court of cass and I
Speaker 2: got one show out of the five that we're going
Speaker 2: and I got my one and you know, getting being
Speaker 2: able to deliver it. Okay, So there's that. I remember
Speaker 2: thinking like what is going to be necessary?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: What do I need to you know, and I thought,
Speaker 2: you need to be indispensable and what does that look like?
Speaker 2: And it was like, you've got to be a go
Speaker 2: to person, got to be a person who can partner
Speaker 2: as well as dance. Well, not enough just to jump high.
Speaker 2: You're not going to get the real parts if you
Speaker 2: can't also do that. You're going to need to be
Speaker 2: able to learn fast in you know, if there's you,
Speaker 2: you know, some people learn. Everybody learns differently, right, multiple
Speaker 2: intelligences all the way. And for me it was like,
Speaker 2: what is it? How fast can I learn a ballet?
Speaker 2: And so I thought, okay, that's being And so in
Speaker 2: the end what happens is, I'm twenty one of the
Speaker 2: great dancers of all time at City Ballet is injured
Speaker 2: and I suddenly they start throwing shit at me. I'm
Speaker 2: been getting to do part after part after part after
Speaker 2: part in one season. So this is nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 2: so I'm twenty one, and between November November I'm in
Speaker 2: the corps January. I mean, I made a soloist and
Speaker 2: may I'm made a principle. Wow, because I've done a
Speaker 2: huge swath of repertory and I've managed it, and I'm
Speaker 2: in dispenser at least then at least right then, and
Speaker 2: then you know, then you have other phases happened, But
Speaker 2: there was like that was the thing for me when
Speaker 2: I knew that. You know, basically, you could call me
Speaker 2: at six point thirty for an eight o'clock show, say
Speaker 2: we need you to do this, and I was going
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 3: Okay, and you could do it.
Speaker 2: I would be okay. Yeah, it may not be perfect,
Speaker 2: but I was going to be okay, you know, And
Speaker 2: I loved that. I loved that sense of emergency too,
Speaker 2: which is it's like a drug.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, oh yeah, you're home.
Speaker 2: I love it. Sitting at a restaurant on Columbus Avenue,
Speaker 2: somebody wears Damien. Oh we saw him sitting in Lingay.
Speaker 2: That happened. I call at the restaurant, Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 3: And then next thing, you know, you're.
Speaker 2: Good, getting a makeup and go yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 2: The thing that is though a lot of that is
Speaker 2: the other things. The reason like I could learn fast
Speaker 2: was because I'd studied music to some degree. It fed
Speaker 2: in I was a kid, you know, New England Conservatory
Speaker 2: on Saturday mornings before I was at ballet class. I
Speaker 2: was doing that so I had a musical education of
Speaker 2: some sort that I could read a score, I could
Speaker 2: do things like that that really helped, you know, I
Speaker 2: had and then the work i'd done, Like so when
Speaker 2: I was at SAV School American Ballet, it's like the company. Okay,
Speaker 2: so SAV is the school of the company. I would
Speaker 2: take a ten thirty class, a twelve thirty class, and
Speaker 2: then sometimes a five thirty class. In between the twelve
Speaker 2: thirty and the five thirty, I would go to the
Speaker 2: public library and I'd watch films and I just watched
Speaker 2: videos as much as I could. I had a ritual.
Speaker 2: You know, I had no real money, but I was okay,
Speaker 2: I just enough and I would I would go and
Speaker 2: i'd watch the video of the people that the things.
Speaker 2: So I was like studying and trying to learn. I
Speaker 2: loved it. It was so great. Loved it. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: could not get enough. Couldn't get enough. But that was
Speaker 2: part of it. Was like recognizing that there's more to
Speaker 2: it than just what goes on, you know in the
Speaker 2: studio or you know, I joined a gym to be
Speaker 2: able to lift or whatever, but you know, and I
Speaker 2: was listening to music and just and also just trying
Speaker 2: to live going to the clubs. I remember going to area.
Speaker 2: I mean I just thought, go to an area back then,
Speaker 2: you probably yeah. I mean it was hard to get
Speaker 2: in at first, and then you know, you figured it out.
Speaker 2: Go to Palladium, going to places that like opened your
Speaker 2: mind to New York, the New yorkness of it, all,
Speaker 2: the specialness. Go to the opera for the first times
Speaker 2: at the Metropolitan Opera, learning how to sneak into City Ballet,
Speaker 2: to like get in, knowing the ushers.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Security was different then. I mean, I don't know, it's
Speaker 2: like timing. I was like able to like bluff my
Speaker 2: way in, so I saw everything. I remember going to
Speaker 2: Carnegie Hall for the first time and seeing like almost
Speaker 2: a fight break out over music, and I remember that
Speaker 2: really impressed me. It was like, because the great conductor
Speaker 2: Ricardo Mouti was conducting something and that's the as the
Speaker 2: as the piece ended, I guess.
Speaker 3: I don't remember.
Speaker 2: I guess it was the middle of the concert, somebody
Speaker 2: screamed boo for Mooty and somebody else said, dare you.
Speaker 2: I was just like, wow, this is crazy here at
Speaker 2: Carnegie Hall. I never seen it again since, but you
Speaker 2: never know. These things make an impression. Yeah, the passion.
Speaker 2: I think key moments, Like you asked about that when
Speaker 2: you note things the first time, I like I kind
Speaker 2: of appreciated that complexity is not necessarily what you think.
Speaker 2: It is, Like the simple things can be the most complex.
Speaker 2: It's like you read like drawing a perfect circle is
Speaker 2: like the hardest thing. You know, it was like, but
Speaker 2: look looks really easy. But like the the cord, the
Speaker 2: ability to walk on stage, forget about the steps, just
Speaker 2: walking when you realize that as a as you know,
Speaker 2: whenever I was seventeen eighteen, you know I'm going to
Speaker 2: walk out there, and you suddenly start to question that
Speaker 2: and you're like start to really kind of go inside
Speaker 2: and say, well, what is it? Where's my how? And
Speaker 2: you realize how those simple things are actually the hardest,
Speaker 2: and then finally realizing as a performer that the whole point,
Speaker 2: the whole point, is to connect with the audience, and
Speaker 2: that's a very complex thing, very simple and complex. Like
Speaker 2: Jerry Robbins was the one who was like always like
Speaker 2: his ideal state he would talk about many of his
Speaker 2: ballets was that you do not even never consider the audience.
Speaker 2: They should be like observers who happen upon and they
Speaker 2: get to see this world. Don't sell it, yeah, don't
Speaker 2: like you know, look, you know sell you know, unless
Speaker 2: that's the part to do it. But then when you
Speaker 2: start to kind of take that apart a little bit,
Speaker 2: it's like, so I'm I'm never going to actually forget them,
Speaker 2: so I'm actually acting like I'm not recognized. So it's
Speaker 2: like doubly kind of false in a way, which is
Speaker 2: that it's so hard. It's so hard, you know. So
Speaker 2: that's like when I got to that place where there
Speaker 2: was something else. I remember with Robin's like the first
Speaker 2: time I recognized that what he was doing in many
Speaker 2: of his dances was this a completely different type of
Speaker 2: movement than I'd ever tried. Actually, there was a he
Speaker 2: used to say, market baby, Market, that was this thing.
Speaker 2: And what that means is they say take it easy
Speaker 2: because he didn't want to see you like pushing an effort.
Speaker 2: But then he'd also say I can't see it, and
Speaker 2: you'd be like, wait, I'm marketing, but you can't see it.
Speaker 2: And that's a very but it's a very childish reaction
Speaker 2: when suddenly you wake up one day and you realize
Speaker 2: I'm starting to get this. I'm starting to get this
Speaker 2: to all of this and how this actually what makes
Speaker 2: things different, that they're not all the same. You don't
Speaker 2: do everything the same. And so you see that with
Speaker 2: great actors obviously, you see that with great musicians, and
Speaker 2: you see that with great answers. So that was those
Speaker 2: were turning points that you know, take time and I'm
Speaker 2: still learning, still learning. I see Nisha like that way.
Speaker 2: I remember seeing a video of him like with Diane
Speaker 2: Sawyer and she got him to sit down and watch
Speaker 2: a video of himself with her and he's watching this
Speaker 2: video that you know, by any standard, is just off
Speaker 2: the charts so good, and midway through he's like, I'm
Speaker 2: pushing so hard, but I didn't need to do all
Speaker 2: of that, you know, just because it's and that's when
Speaker 2: you realize, oh my god, this is so much more
Speaker 2: than being impressive. It's actually it's lifelong kind of struggle
Speaker 2: to be organic. Actually, that's like it's like the meda
Speaker 2: goal is like to be connected organically, not in a
Speaker 2: forced way, as a as a technician or as a
Speaker 2: So those are like those are life life goals. Yeah,
Speaker 2: how do you get to that?
Speaker 1: Our guest Damian Wetzel was a dancer with the New
Speaker 1: York City Ballet for twenty five years. During that time,
Speaker 1: he performed in countless productions, including Swan Lake and Copelia.
Speaker 1: It is so special to experience the ballet as a viewer,
Speaker 1: But what was.
Speaker 3: It like for a performer.
Speaker 1: Going to the ballet as a patron, as a person
Speaker 1: who's gone.
Speaker 3: It's a very big deal. It's an event.
Speaker 1: You're going to the ballet, you dress, the theater is
Speaker 1: so beautiful, the chandeliers, the lights, the whole thing. The
Speaker 1: expectation that then came as you sit and then you
Speaker 1: know the theatore goes dark and the curtain comes up
Speaker 1: from your side of it. What does I feel like
Speaker 1: when you're like, okay, we're about you, Because even though
Speaker 1: you know, you know, you have, these letters are big.
Speaker 2: So there's so many different ways I could answer that,
Speaker 2: because I have so many different feelings about it. I mean,
Speaker 2: and it really is. It depends on the context of
Speaker 2: what's going to be danced where it is. I heard
Speaker 2: Wynton Marsalis give a version of kind of a masterclass
Speaker 2: meets philosophy lesson earlier this this fall with it. He
Speaker 2: runs Jazz at Lincoln Center and he runs Julliard Jazz
Speaker 2: and he was asking what are you thinking about before
Speaker 2: you play? And he got some answers that were technically good,
Speaker 2: and then one guy said, well the context of it?
Speaker 2: Where am I? Who are these people? What am I?
Speaker 2: And he was like, that's that's what you're thinking about
Speaker 2: this actually, So to me the answer is like, wow, director,
Speaker 2: I always think about that. I loved like, if I'm
Speaker 2: making something, or if there's an opportunity to seamlessly transition
Speaker 2: from the audience is just there there. You're doing what
Speaker 2: you're doing. I'm doing what I'm doing, and then suddenly
Speaker 2: you're in it. I love that. And I saw that
Speaker 2: Nick Heidner do that in a production to National Theater
Speaker 2: years ago. With the music and the intermission, suddenly they
Speaker 2: were back in the scene, and it's like it just
Speaker 2: blurs the line between life and part And I love that. Jerry,
Speaker 2: you know, is the master frankly, I mean, he's you know,
Speaker 2: the theatrical genius, and he could do it every which way,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of the you hear the music first
Speaker 2: and you don't even know what's happening, and then suddenly
Speaker 2: you're in the scene or his great masterpiece dances are gathering,
Speaker 2: which is all chopin piano music for an hour ten dancers'
Speaker 2: So the kind of thing we used to do, we
Speaker 2: used to do at the end of the night often,
Speaker 2: so the theater backstage would be very empty, just ten
Speaker 2: of us, everybody else gone home. And it starts with
Speaker 2: the audience is in. So I'll set the stage like
Speaker 2: you were talking. So you come back from intermission, you
Speaker 2: know this is you know, if you know what you know?
Speaker 2: You know, okay, just an hour long. I'm about to
Speaker 2: sit you know, it's a serious commitment. I'm here. Pianist
Speaker 2: comes out on the side. You can see them and
Speaker 2: they're kind of in a subtle light. But curtains down,
Speaker 2: lights go down, the curtain goes up, empty stage, blue
Speaker 2: sight in the back, and it's crazy wow, because so
Speaker 2: the first thing that happens is downstage, downstage left. My
Speaker 2: roll waits for the curtain to finish, takes a couple
Speaker 2: of steps out and stops, and all you feel is
Speaker 2: sort of the cool air coming from the audience and
Speaker 2: just the silence, and then you take a few steps
Speaker 2: and the pianist catches you on the fourth step with
Speaker 2: chopin talk about like the anticipation of many things. Like
Speaker 2: it's just like for the dancer, it's like, Wow, what
Speaker 2: a frommendous privilege to get to kind of be in
Speaker 2: a space and the whole point of the space. Jerry,
Speaker 2: when even coach it would say, this is a place
Speaker 2: that you were. You haven't been in a long time.
Speaker 2: But you come back up and you stand there and
Speaker 2: you kind of take it in and it's all about
Speaker 2: kind of remembering what you once did. And that's how
Speaker 2: it starts. And by the end, everybody's on stage and
Speaker 2: that same character my part goes and touches the touches
Speaker 2: the stage with your palm and just kind of lets
Speaker 2: it sit there for a second, kind of touching the
Speaker 2: stone of memory and history, pure intimacy, and you know,
Speaker 2: and the audience is there to see it. They happened
Speaker 2: to be there to see it. Happened to be there.
Speaker 1: Audience remember to say we happen to be there.
Speaker 2: It's a very different thing then, like you know, a
Speaker 2: show piece of some kind where you come out to
Speaker 2: entertain if you will. And you know, we're doing a
Speaker 2: thing right now at Juilliard New Dances. It's called every
Speaker 2: December and they are all new dances, so it's like
Speaker 2: all every every dancer is in it. So first, second, third,
Speaker 2: fourth year their college students, so every you know, they
Speaker 2: each get a choreographer. Then we're going to break that
Speaker 2: up a little probably in the future, and a few
Speaker 2: more things. But but it's it's kind of a creative
Speaker 2: collaboration moment. The musicians are often involved in great ways.
Speaker 2: And I was looking at the pieces and I was
Speaker 2: looking at one of them and I was remembering a
Speaker 2: phrase and I don't know the attribution. I could look
Speaker 2: it up, but it was dance that aspires to the
Speaker 2: form of music. And I was like, okay, so music.
Speaker 2: We don't demand much of music. We listen and in
Speaker 2: certain like you know, especially in classical music, there's no narrative,
Speaker 2: unless there's an unless there's a song being told. But
Speaker 2: it's music. And now if you study, you learn, oh
Speaker 2: this was actually based on a poem, and you can
Speaker 2: you know, do some things. But dance it aspires to
Speaker 2: the form of music. Wow. What it's like a conceptual
Speaker 2: kind of thing where it's literally it's a symphony orchestra
Speaker 2: or it's a solo and it's just there for the
Speaker 2: pureness of that dance. This is a milestone getting to
Speaker 2: that place where I was like for me, like okay,
Speaker 2: I get it. And then it was from the world
Speaker 2: of Robins or Valanchine to getting out in the world
Speaker 2: and seeing Paul Taylor, Immerse Cunningham, you know, Twila Tharp
Speaker 2: bringing in kind of more pop dance in a funny way, mixing,
Speaker 2: rubbing up against stuff. Just like music, the forms of
Speaker 2: music which have always influenced each other and been built
Speaker 2: off of everything from you know, folk tunes that became
Speaker 2: symphonies that became you know Servinsky. Early Servinsky is all
Speaker 2: about you know, Russian folks folk music. And I was
Speaker 2: just planning a program for next fall, the great great
Speaker 2: artist Barbara Hannigan, and it's all based on folk folks
Speaker 2: songs really have different composers who addressed folk music in
Speaker 2: different ways. And then we're going to add in some dance,
Speaker 2: and we'll add in this and it's like the thrilling
Speaker 2: kind of build of it is the thing. And then
Speaker 2: how exciting it is to kind of have that. It's
Speaker 2: it's just growing and I'm learning. I was just learning
Speaker 2: from her, Like the students will all be a part
Speaker 2: of this. They'll like get their minds blown as they
Speaker 2: go along, and they have to work really hard to
Speaker 2: do it because you still have to do it. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's like where Winton is Also, He's like, okay, now
Speaker 2: we talked about context, but you got to play right.
Speaker 1: I was like, it's do you feel like you've mentioned
Speaker 1: a lot of incredible choreographers who are just you know,
Speaker 1: when you know you're like, oh, okay, I'm about to
Speaker 1: sit with.
Speaker 3: Twila and Twilt is now going to talk about what
Speaker 3: we are going to do. We're just sitting with Jerome
Speaker 3: or sitting is.
Speaker 1: There not necessarily a favorite, but how do you like,
Speaker 1: where does that play in you to be able to
Speaker 1: show to I know this is because twilet is very
Speaker 1: specific when you see a Twilet Flower production.
Speaker 2: Well, so I think it's again in a way, it's
Speaker 2: like you you take in the context of whatever it is. Differently,
Speaker 2: so Jerry was different because I was I was a kid.
Speaker 2: I mean, he came to watch me in class at
Speaker 2: SAB on a Saturday morning because of mutual friends that
Speaker 2: you should look at this kid and basically gave me
Speaker 2: some corrections and then told me don't go to ABT.
Speaker 2: You should come to City Ballet really because I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know where I was going. Because because Barishnikov
Speaker 2: was running American Valley Theater, which was like whoa Misha,
Speaker 2: but a very different repertory, much more like nineteenth century classics,
Speaker 2: Amisia was revolutionizing it in truth, but Jerry Robbins was
Speaker 2: sitting at City Valley making art, and I was like,
Speaker 2: so that was the validation I needed to say that's
Speaker 2: where I'm going, even though I was already total cult
Speaker 2: for Valancie and I was like, I was at that
Speaker 2: theater every night just learning, and I was seeing things
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe. Actually, I was like, what is this.
Speaker 2: I remember there's a valley called episodes. I was literally like,
Speaker 2: what this is unreal? Because I grew up watching Swan Lake.
Speaker 2: You know, I saw that too, and I was like
Speaker 2: and that. I was like, there is so much more.
Speaker 2: So when I think about your question, I'm like, it's
Speaker 2: a huge garden. You know, you're walking through and you
Speaker 2: make choices, you say, I want to work with this one,
Speaker 2: that one. You know, you explore different things. There are
Speaker 2: lots of different ways people do. Twilo was the first
Speaker 2: and maybe the only person I ever really worked with
Speaker 2: who used different music all the time. She would choreograph
Speaker 2: something to Randy Newman that ended up being set to
Speaker 2: Bob Telson, you know, and it would be like, what's happening.
Speaker 3: On broad where she did that Billy Joel?
Speaker 2: Yeah, moving out?
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and you're like, wait, wait, Twilette Tharp and
Speaker 1: Billy Joel have this like.
Speaker 2: I mean, she was always opened for she did so much.
Speaker 2: She had great the Beach Boys Ballet and all these
Speaker 2: things that she did that were kind of rooted in
Speaker 2: popular so to speak, but then she would flip it
Speaker 2: on its side. I mean, I think the last thing
Speaker 2: she made that I was in was a ballet to
Speaker 2: Beethoven at City Ballet, and we worked with all kinds
Speaker 2: of music getting getting there. I remember she put on
Speaker 2: craft Verk, I remember kraft Work. It was German kind
Speaker 2: of you know, very like, had all this kind of
Speaker 2: vibe to it, and that ended up being, you know,
Speaker 2: Beethoven seventh. And there are those who would say that's really,
Speaker 2: you know, not how I would do it. The music
Speaker 2: is first, and we're going to do that. But what
Speaker 2: I learned was a respect for possibility, different ways to
Speaker 2: do things. And then and the.
Speaker 3: Alway open to it.
Speaker 2: I was, I was, I was ready to be it
Speaker 2: was ready. I was ready for that in one lane
Speaker 2: way like I love I love magic, like like literally
Speaker 2: like magic. Yeah, I mean there's a I had a
Speaker 2: I had a series of Kennedy's Center for a bunch
Speaker 2: of years called Demo, and Demo was all about bringing
Speaker 2: together great people musicians, dancers primarily, but occasionally a clown
Speaker 2: Bill Erwin was in for a while, and we would
Speaker 2: put together a show basically, and it was called demo
Speaker 2: because it really was and sometimes it was great and
Speaker 2: sometimes it was like okay, you know. Uh. But one
Speaker 2: of the groups I worked with had a friend in
Speaker 2: DC who was a magician, and the magician would come
Speaker 2: to the show and then afterwards we'd go out for
Speaker 2: dinner and he would then he would do stuff and
Speaker 2: I just remember never I'd never been that close to
Speaker 2: it before, and the things that would go on were
Speaker 2: like so, I just that was a mind thing. And
Speaker 2: I'm still I've been ruminating for a couple of years
Speaker 2: now on doing a show about magic, like trying to
Speaker 2: figure out how to bring that feeling of involuntary reactions
Speaker 2: almost like you just can't believe you know, the composer
Speaker 2: Caroline Shaw is someone I work with a lot on
Speaker 2: a door and I think she's just a genius. And
Speaker 2: I remember we were we were together one night when
Speaker 2: this guy did this stuff, and it's like we had
Speaker 2: a card and it ended up in the salt or something,
Speaker 2: and we still talk about it. So your card is
Speaker 2: in the salt, and it's like, wow, it's unbelievable, and
Speaker 2: you want that feeling of possibility, like how is that possible?
Speaker 2: Is kind of and so what a great place to be.
Speaker 2: So I aspire to that.
Speaker 1: It's two thousand. From my understanding of the story, you're
Speaker 1: in DC. I believe you're sitting next to Giffer, to
Speaker 1: Gabby Gabby Giffer. Now, Harvard has never accepted somebody to
Speaker 1: get an mp.
Speaker 3: A degree without having a bachelor's.
Speaker 1: Now, arguably you've earned a bachelor degree for the twenty
Speaker 1: plus years of your life that no one earns in
Speaker 1: four years going And.
Speaker 2: That was the case. I made that.
Speaker 1: And you get accepted to this program, which then brings
Speaker 1: you to eventually getting the position of being the president
Speaker 1: of what is arguably, if not definitively the premier.
Speaker 3: Art school, Juilliard in New York. I think one. But
Speaker 3: my silly question is, is it sort of like.
Speaker 1: Fame for like, you know, like I always dream when
Speaker 1: I saw fame in nineteen eighty two, because.
Speaker 2: Me too, that idea of level spilling out onto this
Speaker 2: performing art.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So yeah, two thousand and four, I'm at City Ballet.
Speaker 2: It's going fine. I've started doing I mean between like
Speaker 2: getting to be a principal dancer, and then I've started
Speaker 2: branching and doing different things. I'm running groups, I'm choreographing
Speaker 2: for City Valley and other places. I'm directing things. Still
Speaker 2: primarily a dancer, but I'm at all these other things.
Speaker 2: I start doing stuff where I don't know. I wish
Speaker 2: I could really think about it hard. But there was
Speaker 2: a moment when I realized that I liked and I
Speaker 2: had an affinity for speaking in public about art stuff.
Speaker 2: Basically first dance, like I would do a lecture demonstration
Speaker 2: and I would very easily talk about dance, and that
Speaker 2: translated to being, you know, talking about the arts in general.
Speaker 2: And at one point I got asked to be on
Speaker 2: a group of kind of a forty under forty of
Speaker 2: US and China relations, and I was sort of the
Speaker 2: arts guy, and there was a Chinese arts guy, and
Speaker 2: there was an American business and an American military and so
Speaker 2: on and so forth and government. And that's where I
Speaker 2: met Gabby. So I had built to that place where
Speaker 2: I was sort of involved in things beyond my primary
Speaker 2: and I loved it and I was interested in it.
Speaker 2: It goes back to, you know, my childhood and my
Speaker 2: dad being an international law and foreign policy professor, and
Speaker 2: you know, it's like in my head that this is
Speaker 2: a global thing, thinking about how the art world played
Speaker 2: in the Cold War, and I would always think about
Speaker 2: that and talk about things like that, looking to make
Speaker 2: the arts more a part of society. I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: this is making it more than simply a performance. What's
Speaker 2: the rest. So when we talked a little bit about
Speaker 2: the eighties that was brewing, it was in there like
Speaker 2: this is a bigger conversation and I like to talk.
Speaker 2: It turns out, so National Committee has this forty forty thing.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting group, and it was actually in Arizona
Speaker 2: and Gabby and I get on the bus like going
Speaker 2: to dinner, you know, like from the hotel. You're a
Speaker 2: wady with the dinner thing, you know, and She starts
Speaker 2: asking me about what I'm going to do when I
Speaker 2: stopped dancing, which is not close, but it's maybe not far.
Speaker 2: I'm in my mid thirties that point, and who knows,
Speaker 2: you know, an accident can happen anytime. You don't know, yah,
Speaker 2: And I say, gosh, you know, I'm doing this and
Speaker 2: this and this. I'm dancing, I'm directing. I'm probably going
Speaker 2: to stay in the field because you know, I didn't
Speaker 2: go to college, and I don't see you know, I
Speaker 2: don't have some great ballet fortune here. It's not like
Speaker 2: I can just stop and take four years off and
Speaker 2: go to college.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem that way to me. So I see
Speaker 2: people do it now, and I'm just hats off. I'm like, wow,
Speaker 2: I don't know how to do this.
Speaker 3: Stop the Yeah.
Speaker 2: No. They managed to juggle in different ways, and she said, well,
Speaker 2: you know what, there's this program at the Kennedy School
Speaker 2: at Harvard. It's a mid career program and it's a
Speaker 2: master's program. And she said, I think you should do that,
Speaker 2: you know, And I was like, well, how am I
Speaker 2: gonna do that? She said, I'm telling you, it's a
Speaker 2: mid career program. You should persevere you should try. So
Speaker 2: I file it away. I go home and I look
Speaker 2: online and I look at the requirements and nowhere does
Speaker 2: it say you need a bachelor's degree. I'm looking and
Speaker 2: then like, it actually doesn't say it. So I call
Speaker 2: up the Kennedy School and I get somebody at admissions
Speaker 2: and I asked them and that somebody says, oh, well
Speaker 2: it should say that, you know. And I'm like, oops, okay,
Speaker 2: so okay, and I remember going outside, We're at our
Speaker 2: house in Connecticut other than I and I say, well,
Speaker 2: there goes that you know or something like that, and
Speaker 2: she's like, who did you talk to? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't know. Somebody had admissions. She said maybe you
Speaker 2: should try a little harder, you know, And sure enough,
Speaker 2: I try a little harder. I end up going up there.
Speaker 2: I meet a mutual contact of a friend who basically
Speaker 2: says a version of well did you go to high
Speaker 2: school a bit? Because the truth is I graduated super
Speaker 2: early from Hollywood High School. It's because I was dancing
Speaker 2: professionally in LA at that point, and I got all
Speaker 2: the credits and I just couldn't wait to get going.
Speaker 2: So I did at least a bit I said, and
Speaker 2: she's like, oh my god, I guess you should come
Speaker 2: up here. And so I did, and I met the
Speaker 2: head of the program, and then I met the dean
Speaker 2: of the school, and the dean of the school an
Speaker 2: amazing man named Joe Joseph McCarthy, No, no choke be
Speaker 2: his name is. Joe McCarthy said to me, I like
Speaker 2: to think that Harvard's the kind of place that understands
Speaker 2: this situation. And boy do I think about that all
Speaker 2: the time in my current role. I'm like aspire to that.
Speaker 2: And he said, Okay, So here's the deal. Apply take
Speaker 2: your GRE tests, get your recommendations, and if you are
Speaker 2: not you know, if you if you are able to
Speaker 2: do the work, we're gonna we're gonna make this. We're
Speaker 2: going to figure this out. Because no one's been at
Speaker 2: school in a long time anyway, everybody's been out for
Speaker 2: at least a dozen years because it's a mid career program,
Speaker 2: and let's just see. So I came back, I got
Speaker 2: a tutor for the GRES, did a ton of practice tests,
Speaker 2: did it. It went fine, great, recommendations worked. You know,
Speaker 2: I just said, I think I can do this, studied
Speaker 2: like crazy, and one day I was on the airport
Speaker 2: going to Texas to do a gig and I got
Speaker 2: an email and it said you're in, You're going to
Speaker 2: You're going to Harvard. And I was like, are you
Speaker 2: kidding me? And I remember hither and I were laughing
Speaker 2: so hard because we were living kind of in another century,
Speaker 2: I guess, because we kept thinking it would come in
Speaker 2: the mailbox. And I got an email, you know, and it.
Speaker 3: Was like, I got an yest century are.
Speaker 2: Rejected, just an email in some you know, tragic little
Speaker 2: restaurant in LaGuardia. I'm like, oh my god. So and
Speaker 2: and I talked to the dean again, and I make
Speaker 2: some plans, and I take some economics courses over the
Speaker 2: summer to get ready. The next thing, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: there and I get this master's in Public Administration, which
Speaker 2: is essentially a leadership degree, but it's a to me.
Speaker 2: It was like the chance of a lifetime to go
Speaker 2: to school. And so I took classes at the business school,
Speaker 2: at the law school, and I was all over the place.
Speaker 2: I was taking you know, seminars, and I did all
Speaker 2: these different types of things, rhetoric with David Gergan. I
Speaker 2: remember I took a course on state craft with the
Speaker 2: most incredible professor who was a priest who I actually
Speaker 2: knew as a kid because he worked with my father
Speaker 2: on international law things. Again, it was like so crazy,
Speaker 2: and back and back in Cambridge, Boston, you know, running
Speaker 2: back and forth to Boston Valley to stay in shape
Speaker 2: because I'm still dancing. So I'm in Boston staying in shape,
Speaker 2: come back anyway. It all adds up that by the
Speaker 2: time I actually retire that night, when I'm forty one,
Speaker 2: I've kind of got a bunch of different lives going.
Speaker 1: Thanks for pulling up a chair today on table for two.
Speaker 1: While Damien had an incredible career as a ballet dancer,
Speaker 1: he now has another important role. He has served as
Speaker 1: president of the Juilliard School in New York City since
Speaker 1: July twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3: You've had this huge, vast career here in New York
Speaker 3: and you find yourself now running Juilliard.
Speaker 2: So we'd all added up in a funny way. So
Speaker 2: that just to cut fast from two thousand and eight
Speaker 2: to twenty eighteen, when I become the president, I am
Speaker 2: doing I'm leading three or four lives, I'm directing, I'm
Speaker 2: working on national arts education, programs, really dreaming the big
Speaker 2: dream that every child should have arts in their schools
Speaker 2: and how do we get there? And doing work on
Speaker 2: that that I'm super proud of and super inspiring and
Speaker 2: humbling to get to do. I'm working as at the
Speaker 2: Aspen Institute. I created an arts policy program there that
Speaker 2: was all about art and society, very focused on education,
Speaker 2: but also diplomacy, economics, other things. And when I get
Speaker 2: a call about Juilliard, there's this moment when I go
Speaker 2: and I really am happy. I will say, doing all
Speaker 2: these different things, it is like, what a gift to
Speaker 2: never get to you never say no. I remember George
Speaker 2: Stevens Junior asked me to start directing, you know, dance
Speaker 2: when they had a Kennedy Center honor who is a dancer?
Speaker 2: I would direct those. I never had to say no.
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, call me, say yes. I did
Speaker 2: things for the World Science Festival honor. I to honor
Speaker 2: Stephen Hawking with a performance attributing art and science. So
Speaker 2: when I got when I got this call, I was
Speaker 2: in the habit of saying I do not want one job.
Speaker 2: But then I thought about what Juilliard was and I
Speaker 2: was like, it is all of it. It is the
Speaker 2: education piece, It is the performance piece. It is the
Speaker 2: international global impact. It is the future of the arts.
Speaker 2: It is economics, it is what is going to create
Speaker 2: the next centers, the next programs, all the teachers that
Speaker 2: come out of there who educate the next generation. And
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I it is a dream dream
Speaker 2: to try to enter that world. And back at Juilliard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, do you feel like when you're looking
Speaker 1: at the student now at Juilliard and everything's changed in
Speaker 1: the world, you know, between social.
Speaker 2: Media, attact and all that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, has the student changed? Is there work ethic different?
Speaker 3: Are they jaded in a different way? Are they motivated
Speaker 3: in a different way?
Speaker 2: It seems like it's a so yes, everything changes generationally,
Speaker 2: it changes. We all know that from from our lives.
Speaker 2: You know, we know that people and you know kind
Speaker 2: of and then we so we know it this way
Speaker 2: first looking up and then suddenly we look down and
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, they're different, right right, you know, they
Speaker 2: don't think that we're not thinking exactly the same way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But you know the gift of getting to work, obviously
Speaker 2: with successive generations is recognizing that and being a part
Speaker 2: of that that story right to my mind. You know,
Speaker 2: it's gotten infinitely more complex in different ways, the things
Speaker 2: that take up your time. But conversely, you can see everything,
Speaker 2: all of the inspiration you want, it's at yours, it's
Speaker 2: in your pocket. It's like, oh my god, look at this,
Speaker 2: and look at this and look at this. Conversely, maybe
Speaker 2: you're not getting quite the same amount of the need
Speaker 2: for live experience, which is actually in so many ways
Speaker 2: the most that's live and living are related as works.
Speaker 2: So you know, are we living this? Yes, and yet
Speaker 2: the rigor of it is still the same. You're still
Speaker 2: showing up as a dancer to the bar, You're still
Speaker 2: going to your lessons as a musician, You're still doing
Speaker 2: your skills. You're still doing you know, a build of
Speaker 2: repertory found but where it's going or actors, the same thing.
Speaker 2: It's all good. The foundation of diction and all the
Speaker 2: things that they teach at Juilliard like nowhere else in
Speaker 2: the world. It's like it's I can't believe when I
Speaker 2: go and I get to watch and I see the
Speaker 2: progression over time that remains. But the destinations are enormously
Speaker 2: you know, more varied. There's more of a sense of
Speaker 2: and it's I believe in this so much. There are
Speaker 2: so many ways to get to heaven. There are so
Speaker 2: many destinations that are definitions of success. Whereas you know,
Speaker 2: in in many generations pass there was a narrower set
Speaker 2: of outcomes that you would, you know, you might embrace.
Speaker 2: You might be going to an orchestra. You might be
Speaker 2: a soloist, you might be a you might be a
Speaker 2: film composer, you might be someone who works independently as
Speaker 2: with your own ensemble. You might I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: it's the varying things are so much And what I
Speaker 2: love so much about Juilliard is that that edge effect
Speaker 2: is there are so many edges you have your you know,
Speaker 2: within music, there's an opera, there's jazz, there's composition, there's
Speaker 2: baroque music, there's orchestral news, there's chamber music. There's the composers.
Speaker 2: There's and then they're next to the dancers, who are
Speaker 2: a variety of outcomes, whether they're going into you know,
Speaker 2: foundational modern dance or into ballet or going to Europe
Speaker 2: to be in a you know, a contemporary company, or
Speaker 2: to be choreographers or to be directors of which so
Speaker 2: many Juilliard graduates and dance or the directors of the
Speaker 2: companies all kinds. And then in drama you know that
Speaker 2: that field, you know, from the theater base, which is
Speaker 2: what Juilliard's base was for theater. Look at the film,
Speaker 2: you know, you look at you know, from the beginning,
Speaker 2: you know, from like Christopher Reeves and Robin Williams and
Speaker 2: you know, to Viola Davis, to Jessica Chastain to and
Speaker 2: right down to day. The outcomes in film are enormous,
Speaker 2: But then all the other ways that actors are actually
Speaker 2: functioning today, and we just think about, you know, this
Speaker 2: is this is the ecosystem that we are actually not
Speaker 2: just partaking in, but going to continue creating. And that
Speaker 2: to me was the thing. I was like, Wow, this
Speaker 2: is you know, music, dance, and drama together, not just
Speaker 2: performers but makers. Not just makers and performers, but potential
Speaker 2: teachers at Lincoln Center surrounded by one set of outcomes
Speaker 2: which we send people to all those houses. You know,
Speaker 2: if we have a all call Julliard alumni on Lincoln
Speaker 2: Center Plaza, you know, all come out and you know,
Speaker 2: saying it'll be quite something, you know, but then it
Speaker 2: just keeps going, not just in America, globally around the world,
Speaker 2: and so what we put in is what we get out,
Speaker 2: and to me, that is that foundation. And then the
Speaker 2: adventure of it all. What is next? What are the
Speaker 2: what are the collaborative things that we can nurture now?
Speaker 2: What can they try now? That will be the next step.
Speaker 2: We think about the generation's past, and again it's oscillation.
Speaker 2: There are times when institutions kind of go like this
Speaker 2: and hang on to things. They say, we're going to solidify,
Speaker 2: and then there's times when they push out, you know,
Speaker 2: and they make room. I heard bil Ty Jones say
Speaker 2: that in a room at Juilliard my first year. He
Speaker 2: was talking about, you know, the message in one of
Speaker 2: the pieces, the piece they were staging on Juilliard, and
Speaker 2: he talked to the dancers and I have to say,
Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about this in a while, but man,
Speaker 2: it's mystical. They're surrounding him and you know what Bilty
Speaker 2: looks like. It's just like it's a magnificent human being.
Speaker 2: And he said what we were saying, and he put
Speaker 2: his elbows out is make room or make room. And
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, what a message.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I find that's so effective
Speaker 1: in leadership is if you've actually worked in the trenches,
Speaker 1: if you worked in the you know, from being in
Speaker 1: the costume department to dancing to being you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like anyone sits in that chair who can
Speaker 1: actually talk to your students and say, I know it,
Speaker 1: I lived it.
Speaker 3: Yeah did it.
Speaker 2: I mean the history of Juilliard like the history of
Speaker 2: you know, kind of classical, but also art because in
Speaker 2: Juilliard's not strictly classical. There is jazz, for instance. There
Speaker 2: are contemporary forms both in dance and in drama. We
Speaker 2: have composers in film. This is not you know, but
Speaker 2: it is a it is a wide ambition, it's my point.
Speaker 2: But all of it is relatively new. When we look
Speaker 2: at the rest of the world, it's pretty new.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Jilliard starts in nineteen oh five in its first incarnation,
Speaker 2: it's not even called Juilliard till nineteen twenty six, and
Speaker 2: then it grows to add dance in nineteen years fifty one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we're going to be one hundred name so I get
Speaker 2: another whack at a centennial. They did one in two
Speaker 2: thousand and five, another one. We're gonna do another nineteen
Speaker 2: fifty one, they add dance. Nineteen sixty nine, they had
Speaker 2: drama when they moved to Lincoln Center to represent all
Speaker 2: the art forms there because that's where are the educational
Speaker 2: constituents that they had said, this is going to be everything,
Speaker 2: and it's all in development. So when I look back
Speaker 2: at the leaders of Juilliard from the beginning, this is
Speaker 2: all revolution. It's all like here we go. America too,
Speaker 2: will have a classical symphony of we will educate for it,
Speaker 2: not just going to import. And then dance takes hold
Speaker 2: and we think about the modern dance kind of revolution
Speaker 2: starting with Graham. You know, company is going to be
Speaker 2: They're going to have their one hundredth anniversary in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty six two. That's going to be the Martha Graham Company.
Speaker 2: It's all developing. So when like William Schumann was a
Speaker 2: president for many years and then he became the president
Speaker 2: of the first batch of Lincoln Center, actually first round,
Speaker 2: he was the second, but he was really the first
Speaker 2: practicing president. He's adding things in a way just like
Speaker 2: New York is, just like America is post war. Post
Speaker 2: war is like unbelievable. Look where we're sitting right now.
Speaker 2: You were talking about Lincoln Center. I was thinking of
Speaker 2: City Center, you know, on fifty fifth Street, which was
Speaker 2: made by Mayor LaGuardia to be the people's house for dance,
Speaker 2: where City Ballet was founded, for City Opera found, where
Speaker 2: the musicals, where all of this kind of history is
Speaker 2: just happening at that time. After it's a post war
Speaker 2: boom of many kinds, and in New York and in
Speaker 2: culture in America, you start seeing the investment in it.
Speaker 2: You see like the Ford Foundation sponsoring not just City
Speaker 2: Ballet and Soil American Ballet making an investment, but theater
Speaker 2: and orchestras around the country. All of those theaters, you know,
Speaker 2: the guth three and the one in Houston that I'm
Speaker 2: losing my mind here, I can't remember. All of that
Speaker 2: is post war energy that goes for decades. That leads
Speaker 2: us to the place where we have a Lincoln Center,
Speaker 2: because we're not there yet, we don't have our homage
Speaker 2: to art in that way. And that leads to the
Speaker 2: Kennedy Center, and then then we have an established thing,
Speaker 2: and Julliard is a part of that every step of
Speaker 2: the way, building and those leaders are adding and building. Yes,
Speaker 2: and you know this is a. This is evolution, and
Speaker 2: we continue and the project is not done. The project
Speaker 2: continue what it's one.
Speaker 1: A message has I don't think has anyone ever sat
Speaker 1: in your seat, Julia with the history behind them, because
Speaker 1: you one of the things that I find that's.
Speaker 3: So effective in leadership and leadership on any level. Damian.
Speaker 1: I couldn't think of a better person to sit in
Speaker 1: the seat that you're sitting in. And I could also
Speaker 1: want to say the journey of your life from a
Speaker 1: little boy to the dance, to the choreographer to the
Speaker 1: directing to be sitting here in the center of our
Speaker 1: beloved city at such a vibrant time in your life
Speaker 1: and you are how helping people find their voice, to
Speaker 1: create more beauty and tell stories.
Speaker 2: And oh, it's really kind of you. My goal here
Speaker 2: is to create next steps. I want this to be
Speaker 2: ever more creative and also ever more affordable. We're making
Speaker 2: it happen. We have our drama MFA went tuition free
Speaker 2: this last fall with the help of some wonderful people.
Speaker 3: We have.
Speaker 2: You know, over a third of our students, or just
Speaker 2: at a third right now, are tuition free, and some
Speaker 2: of our programs for young people, we have our own
Speaker 2: preparatory division that we're expanding out into communities to try
Speaker 2: to make sure that every child has that opportunity to
Speaker 2: experience art so they're not in a way, they get
Speaker 2: the benefit of it and whether they, you know, end
Speaker 2: up on a stage or just for life, for the
Speaker 2: skills that come with an artistic kind of practice. I
Speaker 2: think foundationally for America, for the world, that the foundation
Speaker 2: of understanding is culture. And I appreciate you giving me
Speaker 2: the chance to have this conversation all this time.
Speaker 3: Thank you for your time, thank you for pulling up
Speaker 3: for share.
Speaker 4: I love our lunches and never forget the romance of
Speaker 4: a meal. If you enjoy the show, please tell a
Speaker 4: friend and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Table
Speaker 4: for Two with Bruce Bosi is produced by iHeartRadio seven
Speaker 4: three seven Park and Airmail. Our executive producers are Bruce
Speaker 4: Bosi and Nathan King. Our supervising producer is Dylan Fagan.
Speaker 4: Our editors are Vincent to Johnny and Cas B.
Speaker 3: Bias.
Speaker 1: Table for two is researched and written by Jack Sullivan.
Speaker 1: Our sound engineers are Meil B. Klein, Jess Krainich, Evan Taylor,
Speaker 1: and Jesse Funk. Our music supervisor is Randall. Poster Our
Speaker 1: talent booking is done by Jane Sarkin. Table for two's
Speaker 1: social media manager is Gracie Wiener. Special thanks to Amy Sugarman,
Speaker 1: Uni Scherer, Kevin Yvane, Bobby Bauer, Alison Kanter Graber. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.