WEBVTT - Indie Evolution: Producer Gigi Pritzker on Staying Nimble and Embracing Risk 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:10.440 M Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring conversations 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:14.440 with industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.239 Managing editor of Television for Variety Today. My guest in 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.840 Los Angeles is Gigi Pritzker. Pritzker is CEO of Madison 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.720 Wells Media. She's a veteran producer and film financier who 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:28.920 has expanded her company significantly in the past few years. 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:33.080 Madison Wells Media, named for the street corner in Chicago 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:39.000 where her grandfather once sold newspapers, now encompasses television production, VR, 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:43.000 live experiences and more. In our interview, she talks about 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.800 how she's been able to grow an independent production outfit 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:52.199 in a marketplace dominated by media giants. G g. Pritsker, 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.760 thank you so much for stopping by to talk with us. 0:00:54.920 --> 0:01:00.000 Thank you. Um. You run MWM, which is a very 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.760 versified media company. You have a lot of a lot 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.759 of operations, a lot of fingers and a lot of pies. Um. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.600 I want to talk about the I want to talk 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.600 about some of the cutting edge things that you guys 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.160 are involved with in terms of VR and you know, 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.560 immersive entertainment experiences. But I thought we'd talk. I know 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:18.840 you're kind of your roots are in the film business, 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.800 putting together, helping to finance, helping you know, arranged distribution 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.320 for films. The perception in the industry right now is 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.400 that the film business is generally challenged. That that that 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.560 that you have the blockbusters, you have Black Panther, and 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.840 you have everything else. In your experience as somebody who's 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.000 who's been in the business for a long time and 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:40.679 has worked in this area, how do you see the 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:44.360 state of getting a movie made these days? Well, having 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.880 always been kind of an outsider um and not in 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:53.480 the system, it's always been challenging. So challenge is nothing 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:59.240 new for independent filmmakers. UM. I think now there are 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:06.040 different lenges UM the UM, the advent or the you know, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:11.040 building up of s VAUD and other streaming platforms. You 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.960 can look at it as a negative or as a challenge. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.080 I kind of view it as a positive and as 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:21.560 an opportunity. The reality is we at MWM look at 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.240 creators and story as the main focus of what we do. 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.920 We're oriented around storytelling and so some stories lend themselves 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.520 to a theatrical release and some don't, and some make 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:37.600 more sense for streaming and some don't. So for us, 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:41.640 we just see expanded opportunity to tell stories, uh, in 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.520 a variety of ways. But as as the specific of 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:50.160 the question, Um, with respect to independent film, I think 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.440 you have to be more nimble now. I think you 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.600 have to be UM focused in how you develop and 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.680 what stories you're developing and with what creators you are 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.880 developing them. And so yes, it's challenged, but it's never 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:09.320 not been challenged. And there are certain arenas that are 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.480 more challenging than other there's certain budget ranges that are 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:17.400 more challenging than others. Um, But that's okay, that's what 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:21.359 we're in. That's the business wherein as challenge and difficulty, right, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.720 it wouldn't it wouldn't be as dynamic a market or 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.519 as sexy a business if it was, if anybody could 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.240 just go in and you know, come up with the 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.320 formula and have a you know, have a hit, have 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.160 a hit movie. Yeah, it was never easy, Like, okay, 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.920 there's no over the twenty five years I've been doing this, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.240 thirty years I've been doing this, there wasn't a period 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.160 when I can go, oh, well it was easy. Then 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.600 how would you say in terms of your In terms 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.520 of the business model for your company, you provide some 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.800 financing for films and then bringing other investors or do 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:55.440 you typically a fully financed all p and A for 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.800 for the projects that you get behind. We don't findance 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:03.720 pna UM. We develop. We UM finance our own development, 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.200 so we have development UM in house. We also co 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:12.800 produce and co develop and co um uh all sorts 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.240 of things. We love collaborating, so for us, there isn't 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.559 any one way in which we work in film and TV. 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:25.680 So material comes in, material gets developed internally, that then 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.400 becomes something that we package. We then may take on 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:33.920 a co financier, we may not UM. It really just 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.119 depends on the project and when we UM get into 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:43.640 the distribution pipeline on a particular piece also dictates what 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.800 the financing scenario looks like, so it happens in a 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:53.640 variety of ways. UM. We also have foreign distribution capabilities, 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:58.320 so we're pretty nimble around financing, understand the landscape really 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.919 well and can be helpful UM to filmmakers on that front. 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.200 In terms of foreign distribution, do you have your own 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.919 sales entity or do you work with others that have 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.760 feet on the ground in various markets. So we used 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:15.880 to have I built my own UM foreign sales operation 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.400 when we were odd Lot Um and it was odd 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:24.279 Lot International, which we then merged UM with Sierra Affinity. 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.920 So over the years it has changed and morphed kind 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:31.000 of the That's the story of everything I've done. Uh, 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.920 it evolves and changes as the business changes. UM. And 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.680 then a few years ago we found that we were 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.400 doing lots of things through the studios and those were 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.040 worldwide rights, so it wasn't quite the same as split 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.719 right steals. So we currently work with lots of different 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:53.320 foreign sales agencies and studios and all kinds of different 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.039 ways of putting it together. And how has you know, 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.840 Netflix and Amazon in particular have come in and our 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.920 big forces now in the film business, especially that kind 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.599 of the traditional kind of mid range budget not not 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.200 the blockbuster and not the micro budget. Um. They're coming 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.440 in and filling you know, filling that that market very well. 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.320 But I know that their economics of what they need 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.560 in terms of the rights can be very challenging for 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.599 somebody for an independent producer that is trying to you know, 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.040 that is trying to recoup costs. And then some how 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:28.760 are you dealing with the introduction of streaming services with 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.080 different models than even than even the studios that you 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.160 know are famous for wanting all rights that they can 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.960 get their hands on. Well, I think that's exactly why 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.440 about three years ago, I re oriented the way in 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:46.719 which I'm in the industry UM. Whereas before odd Lot 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:52.440 was really truly independent film production UM, and I had 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.160 a theater company that was separate from that. It occurred 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.159 to me about three years ago, as all of this 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.719 was changing and Netflix was growing in Amazon was coming 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.760 into the space that really what you needed to do 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.479 was orient yourself around story and whatever way in which 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.680 that story gets executed, whether it's film and the film, 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:17.080 whether it's theatrically distributed or on a streaming platform, whether 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.840 it's TV, whether it's immersive, all of those UM opportunities 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.360 to express story are available under one roof with us 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.640 now at Madison Wells Media, and so I think UM, 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.640 for me, that's provided us an opportunity to be more 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:38.120 nimble and to respond to what the market forces are 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:42.240 and how things are changing within distribution landscapes. UM. So 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.360 we're not really dependent solely on just our film business 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.920 or just another business, you know, the live business. We 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:53.480 really are UM a group UH that can express story 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:55.040 in a lot of different ways. I think a perfect 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.720 example for us is Genius, which is the series we 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:03.000 have with Fox twenty one at Gianna Imagine. Originally that 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:07.720 was the Einstein UM property, which was ours, and we 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.160 tried for a number of years to figure out how 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.600 to tell the Einstein story as a film. And as 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.440 we were failing to do that properly UM and not 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:24.120 meeting our own expectations, um TV started to change. Streaming 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.000 came on and it became really clear to me that 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:31.240 actually Einstein's life was too big for a two hour structure, 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.120 and so it was like, wait a minute, let's reorient 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:38.240 this and think about it in limited series. And once 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.680 we were able to do that and rethink it and 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.040 Imagine came on board, it became a much easier way 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.480 to tell that story, and it became the series that 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.520 is Genius, and we just finished season two with Picasso 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.960 and Emmy nominated both years in a row. Congratulation. Thank 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.280 you so so, that to me is a perfect example 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:01.280 of how we didn't want to be um UH standing 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.080 behind technology or changes in the industry. We wanted to 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.360 be able to be nimble enough so we wouldn't get 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.520 kneecapped by that and be able to pivot when you 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.800 need to pivot in terms of in terms of the 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:14.959 way your company works, is it important do you have 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:19.000 to have significant ownership or equity in a property to 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.599 make it work for you, because I know in television 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.719 it's always been, even more so than film, there has 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.880 been almost a resistance to outside money. It's been, you know, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.280 especially as the companies have gotten bigger and the conglomerates 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.480 more vertically integrated. There's been a sense of no, we 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:37.360 want your development, but we don't want your money. We 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.560 want to own all all worldwide rights, right, And I 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.560 think sometimes that is changing. So there there are bits 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.719 and pieces in the in the TV world that are 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.440 starting to actually mimic the film and independent finance world, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.360 where you can put you know, foreign rights together to 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:57.560 build a project that way. But the reality is um 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.600 whether it's um having a huge amount of the equity 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.240 or a piece of the equity, or fully financing or 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.760 partially financing or film or television. For us, what's important 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.680 is actually the package of rights that we have and 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.959 the ability to take this material across different platforms. That 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.400 to us is what's very important UM. And the financing 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.040 structure and the equity structure can be you know, kind 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.560 of a mixed portfolio. Frankly, depending on the project. It 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.600 sounds like a lot to juggle though, you know, just 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.920 in terms of keeping it all keeping it all straight, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.080 it is. It is a lot to juggle, but it's 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.080 it's a it's a ton of fun and I think 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.040 it's um for the group of us that are they're 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:44.800 doing it, it's really um a completely collaborative by design structure. 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.080 Uh so that are legal and finance and you know, 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.480 the the business side or the operations side is very 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.280 much embedded within the creative side as well. Everybody's working 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.440 to solve the issues of how do we get the 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.600 best creators, get the best storytellers be able to express 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.120 what we want to express in the most effective way 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.280 for us financially as well as creatively. There's you know, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.200 like I'm harping on this on the streaming services, but 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.160 they are such a big force. Um. You know, there 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:21.520 there are some pretty astounding UM pay days happening now 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.000 for talent, for talent that isn't demand it you know, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.360 it's it isn't. It's an incredible time for talent that 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.400 doesn't demand. It's also very challenging time for people to 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.360 work within budgets and in parameters because expectations are now 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.320 being set so high with you know, nine figure deals 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.080 being written by Netflix. Is that a challenge for you 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:46.120 at the development phase to attract to attract talent to us, 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.960 you know, an independent company at a time when you know, 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.760 when the largest companies are are chasing after big stars 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.200 with big checks. You know, look, I think it's always 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.280 hard and there's always challenges. But for us, we have 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:03.520 found is UM talent at that level knows where they 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.679 can go and get a big paycheck. To your point, 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.880 but what we're building is a platform where people can 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.680 come and actually build wealth and ownership and that's different 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.880 UM and we're seeing that a lot of the talent 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.280 that is coming and working with us and the creators 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:23.200 that were orienting around appreciate that UM and so yeah, 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.679 you can go there and get a big payday. There 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.400 are limits to the upside, there are limits to the 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:33.520 ownership UM and so ultimately sometimes that's great and that's 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.880 all you want, and sometimes you want to own it 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.080 and you want to be able to own all the 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.319 rights along with us and really express it over years. UM, 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.680 that's a different model. That's a different world. That's where 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.600 we are. M It is a it is a fast 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.280 changing marketplace out there. UM. Let's talk about some of 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.440 your other the other divisions and other activities. I know 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.960 you've been putting a lot of resources into VR right now. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.560 What do you think. I think VR is still a 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.079 little bit of a nebulous market for a lot of people, 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.560 including me, who doesn't who I've tried those I've tried 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.800 the goggles. Oh boy, I just you know, I I 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.760 get dizzy so fast. It's it's amazing. But it's a 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.480 hard it's just hard for my old tired brain to 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.679 take in all. What do you think do you see 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:23.800 it becoming a more mainstream, more you know, UM, more 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:29.120 readily accessible type of entertainment experience for people? Yeah? I 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.359 think that for us. UM, the way we are engaged 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.240 with VR and a R and just immersive content in 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:41.680 general is UM that we want to be in the space. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.480 We want to get a better understanding of what it's 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:49.600 like to be makers in the space. UM, But nobody 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.480 knows where it's evolving or what the market is or 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.160 when the market will catch up. So we're very disciplined 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.720 and very careful UM to not get over our skis 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.280 on it, if you will. So UM we're engaged in 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.760 a variety of areas. I think what we're seeing is 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:11.280 that a lot of the UM best use for this 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.119 is in location based entertainment. There is really a burgeoning 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.800 market UM for location based entertainment that is immersive and 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:24.320 VR oriented UM. So we've got a number of projects 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.040 UM in that space. We've got something with John Favreau 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.920 called Nomes and Goblins that we did a short We 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.880 released body little over a year ago, a short piece, 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.280 and then we're now building that out UM. And the 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.760 approach for something like that is both location based and 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.440 then home install UM. And there's Sony PlayStation in other 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:51.080 places where people are gravitating towards that content in that manner. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.760 But I think the location based aspect of it is 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.640 really an interesting one, and it's interesting for us because 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:02.080 it's the confluence of UM the technology that VR and 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.440 a R has, but it's also got aspects of live theater, 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.400 which we're also involved in. So we have a project 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:12.320 that UM actually merges those two and is immersive theater 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.280 UM and that certainly will be location based UM. So 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.680 our immersive group is doing a lot of different kinds 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:26.160 of work in different areas, some with established creators who 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.840 want to work in this medium, some with new talent 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.400 who are native to VR UM and so for us, 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.160 it's really about again the very mixed portfolio, not being 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.000 tied to one strategy that you go along on and 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.440 then find out that the market shifted and whoops, you 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.920 picked the wrong one. So I would say we're being 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.640 very diligent, very careful, and trying to build relationships with 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:54.240 the makers in that space. Uh. And the the ability 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.960 to be innovative and really creative truly in it is 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.080 is what's so much fun. It sounds like a big 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:05.240 investment to be into that, into the actual technology to 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:11.040 be able to to craft VR experiences or VR films. Yeah, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:16.160 I mean we are not, uh again like our overall platform, 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.480 We're We're agnostic. So whether it's a you know, a 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.000 vibe or a Hollo lens or whatever the technology is 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.400 that we want to use to UM either port to 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:32.040 or create the content in, we aren't owners of that. 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:36.200 We aren't investing in that we are really content creators. 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.200 That's what we are across all of the things that 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.760 we do. And so that's a different mindset and a 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:46.920 different um uh investment strategy. UM. And so for us, 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.600 really it is content creation across the platform and including 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.280 in VR and a R and immersive. Are you finding 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.400 that creative talent like the Jon Favreau's are coming to 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.120 you with I've got this great idea that I envisioning, 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.640 you know, envision of br component to this movie or 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:08.199 I envision of a full on VR entertainment experience. Are 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.040 people coming in the door now with pitches like that, Yes, 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:16.840 very much so. And UM there are also UM opportunities 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.880 that we have with i P that comes to us 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.080 through one portal. We want to make a film, we're 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.880 doing this thing, we have this i P and then 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.160 we have the ability to say, okay, well let's think 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.280 about it in a different medium as well. UM. So 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.399 for example, we have a show in our live group 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.160 UM which does a lot of i P driven musicals UM, 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.239 a show called Red Roses, Green Gold UM. It is 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:45.920 the catalog of Jerry Garcia UM and Robert Hunter expressed 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.119 in a musical UM with a story that doesn't relate 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.600 to them, but using that music, which is the music 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.400 of The Grateful Dead. That show was done off Broadway. 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:01.720 Uh last year UM in New York and our immersive 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.520 group worked with our theater group, our live group to 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.800 create a music video that was in VR that we 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:15.000 then took UM to south By Southwest and Yeah, exactly 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.240 it was The Grateful Dead and VR how perfect long 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:21.280 guitar jams. Uh. So it was great. It was a 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:25.720 wonderful way for those groups to work together collaboratively. It 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.520 was an interesting way to express that piece of theater 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.080 in another medium. UM, and the fans of the show 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:37.480 really appreciated the opportunity to see that music video in 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.840 that format. So we're really bringing things very much across 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.959 the different pieces within the groups that are that are 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.920 assembled around Madison Welles Media. Is there a is there 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.760 a a business model for VR at this point or 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.920 is it still very experimental? Yeah, it's very experimental, which 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.239 is why you have to be very UM. I think 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.280 you have to be diligent, you have to be disciplined, 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.199 but you have to be willing to take some risk. UM. 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.240 It's certainly not without risk, no doubt about it. UM. 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.400 But you know that to me, that's independent filmmaking from 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.119 the beginning, right you you you need to think about 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.320 what's your ultimate goal and how are you going to 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.600 monetize this? But you have to be creative, so you 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.080 have to take some risk um, but you try to 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.760 mitigate the risk in any way you can. So it's 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:29.080 always that balance between you know, creative risk, innovation, a market. 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.400 Where is the market, what are the opportunities? And for 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:37.639 us having put this together Madison Wells Media, the entire 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.760 purpose is that this is a group of people oriented 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:47.240 around being nimble, um, being able to take calculated risk um. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.240 And so that's you know, immersive is is no different, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.439 But yeah it isn't It is an area whose market 0:19:54.720 --> 0:20:00.680 is not to find right now. Um. You you mentioned, 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.359 you know, being willing and having to have an appetite 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.160 for risk. As you talk to other financiers and I'm 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.639 sure deal with private equity and you know, investors, we 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.040 hear that there's a lot of investors that want to 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.720 put money into content. They see the you know, they 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.040 see the booming global demand, they see the appetite of 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.439 the big streaming services. Is that true? Is that a 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.119 misperception in your experience right now in terms of, you know, 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.880 the ability to attract other investors to to content ventures, 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.600 to individual films or film slates. The sense is that 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.520 the kind of the slate business had really tapered off 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.439 in the last couple of years. Well, you know, I 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.320 don't I don't know if we were out there just 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.800 looking for film finance, I don't know what the world 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:49.239 looks like now. Um, certainly on an individual basis, there 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:50.840 are a lot of people with a lot of money 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.600 that want to invest in movies because it's always been 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.720 and always will be fun and sexy and all those things. 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:03.520 Um we are um right now really I think an 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.880 interesting and and and we have had incoming phone calls, Um, 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.320 an interesting play for investors who are looking at a 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:18.359 bigger content company that isn't just film based. But um, yes, 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.440 we're finding there are people out there who are very 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:25.119 interested because the world has changed so much and the 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.320 ability to create content. You know, it's interesting are our 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.800 group is assembled around not just financing, but actually being 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.480 able to make the thing, whether it is the musical 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:41.040 or the film or the TV show. So the ability 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.440 to have both those sides the making of as well 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:47.720 as the financing and in some cases the direct distribution 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:52.480 of those things. Um is very attractive and is unique. Yeah, 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:54.679 it is very you know, it's rare that you have 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.960 all of those elements on in an independent outfit under 0:21:57.960 --> 0:21:59.920 one roof. Yes, But I think it speaks also to 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.200 your longevity. How long I know, prior to m w M, 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.680 you were odd Lot Entertainment And remind me how long? 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:10.920 How long when did you start first start odd Lot 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.600 and in the in the business. Um, so odd Lot 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:24.159 itself UM started around is somewhere in that vicinity. Um, 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:29.240 but I've been you know, making film and um even 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:35.160 before that, making music videos and filmed content and music videos, 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.080 corporate films. You know, in the eighties, that was kind 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.359 of the thing everybody in New York City, which is 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.879 where I was building a small production company. You made 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:48.240 whatever anybody needed you to make, mostly in video back then, 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:53.280 so before everybody could make video on their iPhones exactly. 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.600 So I mean I did literally hundreds of you know, 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:02.080 this is the castor on the chair that this company makes, 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.840 and we need a video to sell those casters. So 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.240 we did hundreds of corporate films, which was great training 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:10.840 because like try and tell the story of the most 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:15.320 boring piece of equipment ever known to man. Interesting exactly, 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:17.720 So it was it was really it was good training. 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:20.879 And what was it that made you go into the 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:24.720 film business or into the production entertainment business in the 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:27.560 first place? Were you somebody who just grew up loving 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:31.520 films and TV? You know? It's funny, Um, I feel 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:35.879 like I didn't know going forward where it was all heading. 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.040 And at some point you turn around at a certain 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:40.520 age and you go, oh, that did all make sense. 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:44.040 But I didn't really realize that going forward. So oddly, No, 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:45.800 I didn't think I was going to always end up 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:49.920 in the film business. But I lived in Nepal during 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:54.399 college and did a thesis on cultural transmission through folk tales. 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:58.760 So somewhere in their stories have always apparently been important 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:01.600 to me. Um. And it was a meandering path that 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:05.239 frankly got me here. Um. Because I didn't grow up 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:07.600 in this industry. I don't have relatives that we're in 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:10.800 this industry. Um. So I kind of came here very 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:14.399 much as an outsider and started in New York. Wow. 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:17.560 That's quite a that that's quite a rise. Good good 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:21.639 for you in in start in obviously starting out as 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:26.600