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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing.

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Speaker 1: This as Rufer's Electricians HVAC workers under the microscope at tonight.

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Speaker 1: Why was Nancy Guthrie's backdoor propped open? This as a

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Speaker 1: Pima County Sheriff's deputy arrested for kidnapp and the same

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Speaker 1: jurisdiction as Nancy Guthrie is kidnapped. The FBI tonight looking

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Speaker 1: for sat images. Satellite images, Yes, they've been used in

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Speaker 1: the past. Will they emerge as key evidence? Also tonight

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Speaker 1: a vehicle of interest. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grece. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Why was the back door propped open?

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Speaker 2: It confirms the initial reports that entry was initially gained

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Speaker 2: through the rear of the residents.

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Speaker 1: Yet we know missus Guthrie went out the front door

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Speaker 1: because that was her blood straight out. Today, Matt Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, we are learning that Rufer's electricians HVAC

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Speaker 1: workers are now under the microscope in the disappearance of

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. What's happening well, Nancy.

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Speaker 3: One thing that has been learned is that there were

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Speaker 3: a number of individuals that had legitimate access to Nancy

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Speaker 3: Guthrie's home. In particular, there was an electrician at least

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Speaker 3: one maybe more, that was there to replace an electrical

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Speaker 3: panel that was a big undertaking and required multiple days

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Speaker 3: and work orders. That was leading up to the day

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Speaker 3: she was kidnapped. We've got h fact workers that were

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Speaker 3: also reportedly doing service maintenance work on her HVAC system

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Speaker 3: in the home in the weeks leading up to her

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Speaker 3: disappearance on February first. These are all legitimate people reportedly

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Speaker 3: that were there and are now being tracked back by investigators.

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Speaker 3: Each individual person this.

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Speaker 1: For reference at twelve to you is put up Dave

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Speaker 1: mac What do you mean they were all legitimate? Do

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Speaker 1: you know who was on the team of roofers working

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Speaker 1: on her house? Do you know they were all legitimate?

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Speaker 1: Were they day laborers? They got picked up in the

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Speaker 1: parking lot of the grocery store. You don't know that.

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Speaker 1: Why did you say that?

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Speaker 3: I said legitimate because there were legitimate reasons for these

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Speaker 3: people to be there. We don't know who they are,

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Speaker 3: we don't have their names, and hey, a day laborer

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Speaker 3: could have been picked up to do work that day.

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Speaker 4: We don't know.

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Speaker 3: We just know that there were legitimate works in place

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Speaker 3: for the work being done, not the individuals.

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Speaker 1: Dave mac Dave Mac an eighty four year old mother,

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Speaker 1: grandmother is missing. Words matter, words matter, straight out to

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Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons, joining us Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security, I

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Speaker 1: can't say it enough. He leads a team of investigators

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Speaker 1: around the world finding and extracting missing people, including extractions

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Speaker 1: from Mexico former marine Irocky Warvet. Brian, I would expect

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Speaker 1: this as SOOP. I would be surprised if they didn't start, well,

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Speaker 1: not nanos, not nanos, But the FBI didn't start looking

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Speaker 1: at the hvacs, the electricians, the roofers. Day one. We've

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Speaker 1: heard about landscapers and pool guys, but now we're hearing

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Speaker 1: specifically about h VAC workers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and that search has expanded to anybody doing

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Speaker 2: work inside of Missus Guthrie's High and in the I

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Speaker 2: would say important to remember, and in the neighboring properties.

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Speaker 2: These are going to be HVAC technicians, electricians, general contractors,

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Speaker 2: any type of repair work being done. The FBI will

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Speaker 2: be meticulously going through those work orders, the dates, the times,

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Speaker 2: that those work orders were completed, and then most importantly,

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Speaker 2: who was there on site and who has information about

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Speaker 2: those people and getting an interview with them.

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Speaker 1: Scott Iiker, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey

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Speaker 1: Team cast former FBI agent before that, former homicide nor

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Speaker 1: from Virginia twenty twelve years now with precisions cellular analysis experts. Iiker.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think the FBI zoomed in the moment they

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Speaker 1: got there and started looking at well, we know looking

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Speaker 1: at pool guys and looking at LANSCA papors, but now

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Speaker 1: HVAC workers. We also know they looked at electricians, but

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Speaker 1: now we're learning more about roofers and h va workers.

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Speaker 5: Why, Well, that's part of the process of when we

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Speaker 5: go out and there's a crime scene, we're going to

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Speaker 5: do a neighborhood canvas. That's not just talking to the neighbors.

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Speaker 5: That's also figuring out who was normally in that area

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Speaker 5: and who was there doing work or who was just

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Speaker 5: visiting family in the area. You don't just narrow it

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Speaker 5: down to people that live there. It's everybody that could

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Speaker 5: have been in that area at the time the crime

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Speaker 5: occurred and prior to the time of occurring. So the

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Speaker 5: workers there are definitely people that we and when I

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Speaker 5: was in the FBI, we'd be tracking down and interviewing

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Speaker 5: and validating their reasons to be there and where they

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Speaker 5: were on the night of the crime.

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Speaker 1: We're just learning tonight that it's not just electricians, not

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Speaker 1: just the pool guy in the landscaper, but specifically rufers,

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Speaker 1: HVAC workers under the microscope and Susannah Ryan joining US

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Speaker 1: lab director forensic DNA analyst at Pure Gold Forensics. She

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Speaker 1: is a consultant Ryan Forensics, twenty five years in the

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Speaker 1: business of DNA and soroology. Susannah, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Day one, you look at them, Day two,

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Speaker 1: you get their DNA. It's not hard. I stood there

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Speaker 1: warrant in hand and said, I'm getting your DNA now.

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Speaker 1: I did not perform the test because that would make

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Speaker 1: me a witness at child. But I stood there and

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Speaker 1: watch it. Watched it on many occasions. I watched it

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Speaker 1: get put in a paper bag, sealed, signature written on it,

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Speaker 1: and taken to the crime lab. How do you do it?

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Speaker 1: How do you get the HVAC workers DNA and the

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Speaker 1: least intrusive manner possible?

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Speaker 6: It's very simple. It's just what we call buckle slab,

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Speaker 6: So it's just a swa from the inside of someone's mouth.

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Speaker 6: We're collecting the cheek cells and so that's a great

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Speaker 6: source of DNA. We don't have to take blood anymore.

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Speaker 7: So it's very simple.

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Speaker 6: Put that swab in, swirl it around, collect it, and

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Speaker 6: like you said, then you have it. Whether you actually

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Speaker 6: have to test it or not. That's going to come

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Speaker 6: down the road when if you start having unknown profiles

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Speaker 6: but absolutely collected. I can't tell you the number of

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Speaker 6: cases that I have worked that it's turned out that,

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Speaker 6: you know, not to disparage construction workers. I'm not saying,

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Speaker 6: you know, these people are bad people in any way,

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Speaker 6: but I have had a lot of cases where it's

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Speaker 6: been a construction worker, someone that, as Dave Max said,

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Speaker 6: had legitimate access to the house, but performed a terrible

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Speaker 6: act on a person living there. And that does have

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Speaker 6: me concerned that perhaps one of these people who had

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Speaker 6: this access to the house then locked the door, put

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Speaker 6: something in it so it didn't close completely because they

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Speaker 6: were planning on coming back later that night to.

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Speaker 7: Wants Suffy.

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Speaker 1: So Roofer's electricians, h VAC workers get in line. You're

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Speaker 1: getting a buckle swab. It's really not hard, just like

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Speaker 1: Susanna Ryan's telling you. It's like a long Q tip

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Speaker 1: and they just stick it in your mouth and swirl

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Speaker 1: it around. They don't let you do it in a

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Speaker 1: forensic buckle swab like you would take your own COVID

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Speaker 1: test by sticking the Q tip up your nose. No,

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Speaker 1: they do it to make sure it's an accurate test.

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Speaker 1: Very easy. In the time we've talked about it, we

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Speaker 1: could have done maybe three or four buckle swabs now. Next,

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Speaker 1: a Pima County Sheriff's deputy arrested for kidnap of a

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Speaker 1: female in this jurisdiction, Dave mac hit me Nancy.

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Speaker 3: Twenty two year old Travis Reynold is a deputy or

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Speaker 3: foreigner deputy with Pima County and he is accused of

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Speaker 3: transporting suspect and during this transporting the suspect to jail,

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Speaker 3: Travis Reynolds commented on her hotness, referring to her as

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Speaker 3: a milf and suggesting.

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Speaker 1: That he hold on, please stop. I've never heard it

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Speaker 1: stated quite like that, Dave mac did you say the

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Speaker 1: p Ma County sheriff deputy commented on her hotness. Her hotness,

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Speaker 1: is that what you said?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead. He commented on her hotness. That's not

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Speaker 1: a feeling, and he keep going and suggested either keep

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Speaker 1: going help No, I'm frank because of what it suggests Nancy.

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Speaker 3: He suggests he could actually help her case if they

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Speaker 3: just popped over to it.

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Speaker 1: He's some bargain. Look at this. Please, okay, go ahead. Sorry.

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Speaker 3: So once the woman is obviously very uncomfortable in this situation,

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Speaker 3: but Reynolds doesn't let up. They go to the jail,

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Speaker 3: and at the jail, this Pema County Sheriff's deputy the

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Speaker 3: time sits in the vehicle with the suspect. He doesn't

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Speaker 3: take her inside the jail. The deputy sits in his

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Speaker 3: car in the parking lot with by the way surveillance

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Speaker 3: cameras facing the car where they can see them sitting

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Speaker 3: in the car. During this time period of two hours,

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Speaker 3: the suspect watches other suspects being taken in for booking

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Speaker 3: into the jail and suggests, hey, let's go in.

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Speaker 4: It's time.

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Speaker 3: She's begging. Let take me into jail. Reynolds doesn't. They

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Speaker 3: stay in the vehicle for two hours During that time,

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Speaker 3: Reynolds allegedly shows the victim suspect videos a male and

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Speaker 3: female having sex. The suspect or victim rather believes.

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Speaker 1: Dave it's called porn pornography, porn video. Let me guess.

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Speaker 1: Is he the star of the porn just apparently?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, keep going. Can you wrap it up? Because

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Speaker 1: I don't see any connection?

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Speaker 3: Go go, go, go well, he is charged with kidnapping

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Speaker 3: the deputy, former deputy Travis Reynolds.

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Speaker 1: Way can you leave out? He made her show, He

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Speaker 1: made her show him her breasts before he would let

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Speaker 1: her let her out of the car.

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Speaker 4: That is exactly what happened, and I did leave it out.

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Speaker 4: I apologize.

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Speaker 3: So once she showed him her breast, the deputy then

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Speaker 3: escorted the victim suspect into the jail, where she was booked.

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Speaker 3: He was later arrested by Tucson police because he is

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Speaker 3: a deputy with pan mc county and he is arrested

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Speaker 3: and charged with kidnapping and is being held on two

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Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars bond.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to throw this to Scott Iiker, I

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Speaker 1: Ker I need to see Iker. Not seeing him there?

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Speaker 8: He is.

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Speaker 1: What's wrong with men? What is wrong with men?

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Speaker 5: I can tell you that that's kind of sickening, and

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Speaker 5: that's abuse of a power of a police officer. I mean,

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Speaker 5: you've already got someone in a position where they can't

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Speaker 5: fight back, and you are suggesting these type of events

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Speaker 5: and stuff like that for some favor. It's sickening.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, I don't see a connection that the

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Speaker 1: motors operand I'm medo of operation completely different than that

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Speaker 1: of Nancy Guthrie. But we still have to look at it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if he'll try to force himself on one

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Speaker 1: female in this jurisdiction, he may very well. He has

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Speaker 1: not been charged, he's not been named a person of

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Speaker 1: interest in the Nancy Guthrie case. My gut is he's

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Speaker 1: not part of that. So please don't run up to

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Speaker 1: his apartment with pitchforks and torches, Please don't. That's it.

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Speaker 1: You still have to look at it, Iker, you can't

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Speaker 1: ignore it.

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Speaker 5: I agree that this doesn't look like it's having any

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Speaker 5: connection to the Nancy Guthrie case. Just the fact that

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Speaker 5: they use the term kidnapping. That's going to make the news,

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Speaker 5: and it's in Pima County. But I don't see at

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Speaker 5: this at this point in time, any connection to Missus

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Speaker 5: Guthrie's case.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what about it, Fitz, I agree that.

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Speaker 2: You know, Hey, the unfortunate thing here is this is

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Speaker 2: yet again another negative blow in the media to Pema

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Speaker 2: County that's unrelated to the case, but also will tie

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Speaker 2: up significant resources amongst their leadership. Right because at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, Pema County leadership is going to

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Speaker 2: have to react to this. They're going to have to

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Speaker 2: answer questions, They're going to be dealing with lawyers. This

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Speaker 2: is yet again another distraction against their efforts for finding

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Speaker 2: Missus Guthrie.

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Speaker 1: Let me see, Fitz, you know what you just did.

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Speaker 1: You just gave me a night terror. I'll be dreaming

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Speaker 1: about this tonight because this fits right in with sod

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Speaker 1: some of the dude did at defense. When we finally

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Speaker 1: do catch the purp and it will be a man,

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Speaker 1: if not more than one man, they're going to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: look this Pema County sheriff. He's a kidnapped right under

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Speaker 1: your nose. Maybe he did it. That could get one

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Speaker 1: gurror to veer off the path into the weeds. See

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. This is bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, problems compound

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Speaker 2: in moments like this where you know this piece of

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Speaker 2: information armed a defense attorney armed with that can point

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Speaker 2: to their reaction to this case. You know what were

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Speaker 2: the communications? Was this individual ever in missus Guthrie's neighborhood

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Speaker 2: for any reason? And that could just be a major

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Speaker 2: distraction at trial.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Joe Scott Morgan for being with us tonight.

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Speaker 1: Forensics investigator and Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the evidence outside Nancy Guthries's

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Speaker 1: front door. We've seen a lot. We've seen the matt,

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Speaker 1: which I know you want to talk about. We've seen

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Speaker 1: the rocks, the debris, the foliage on top of the mat.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about some Ozark trail shoes.

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Speaker 1: Ozark trail shoes. Now, Joe Scott, we know that the

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Speaker 1: backpack was an Ozark Trail backpack from Walmart, but Ozark

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Speaker 1: trail shoes. I want you to look at the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the tread and compare it to blood found outside

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's front door.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: You take a look at this image, Nancy, and you

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Speaker 9: begin to think about, well, is there any kind of

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Speaker 9: discernible tread pattern that is contained in there? Now, let

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Speaker 9: me preface this by saying that the image that you're

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Speaker 9: seeing with the blood droplets, that's not coming from the police,

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Speaker 9: that's coming from somebody in the press. Okay, So the

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Speaker 9: quality of that image will be enhanced relative to the

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Speaker 9: pictures that they took as crime scene investigators. So you'll

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Speaker 9: be able to see more fine detail in that. Now,

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Speaker 9: why is this important? It's important when you begin to

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Speaker 9: think about that Ozark trail tread there, and our tread

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Speaker 9: on our shoes is very distinctive to us in the

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Speaker 9: way that we walk. So what they're looking for, first off,

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Speaker 9: is a general categorization of these treads. Is it something

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Speaker 9: that could potentially be looking at the image of the blood?

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Speaker 9: Is there an image that is consistent with the tread

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Speaker 9: pattern on the Ozark tread on the Ozark shoes. Now,

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Speaker 9: if that is in fact the case, if they are

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Speaker 9: able to get their hands on shoes like shoes, for instance,

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Speaker 9: they would do a comparison at that moment in time,

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Speaker 9: particularly if they find them with a suspect nancy. And

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Speaker 9: what's going to make those particularly identifiable is the wear pattern.

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Speaker 9: How do we wear our shoes? Do we pronate supinate

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Speaker 9: or we heal strikers or we tow strikers. You begin

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Speaker 9: to think about that come through in that image.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk to you about the Ozark

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Speaker 1: Trail shoes. And we had been looking at various shoes

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Speaker 1: to determine their shoe patterns on the bottom of their treadmarks.

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Speaker 1: This is from a photo I found on X from

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Speaker 1: a guy who talks shit on X. His words, not mine.

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Speaker 1: Now we're seeing the bottom of the pattern. I want

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Speaker 1: you to look at the Ozark Trail shoe itself. Here

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Speaker 1: is a side shot of the Ozark Trail men's low

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Speaker 1: hiker boots. Now, let's compare that to the video of

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Speaker 1: the porch guy. Let's look at his shoes, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 1: They actually look more like the Ozark Trail shoe than

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Speaker 1: they do, for instance, a regular pair of Nikes or

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Speaker 1: tennis shoes with stripes down the side or a logo.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, and there's very distinctive pattern here, Nancy that let

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Speaker 9: me let me just you know, kind of frame this

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Speaker 9: up for you with FBI, with their digital folks that

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Speaker 9: are taking a look at these images. If they trim

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Speaker 9: this out, and the folk that they focus in on

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Speaker 9: these particular shoes, they'll be able to super enhance these

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Speaker 9: This video is so good compared to a lot of

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Speaker 9: the stuff I've seen over the years, relative to specific

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Speaker 9: types of shoes. They can enhance this image to the

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Speaker 9: point where I think that they could probably come up

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Speaker 9: with branding, you know, and what you're looking for specific identifiers.

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Speaker 9: If you take a look at the tip of that shoe,

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Speaker 9: you've got the rubber sole that actually rises up to

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Speaker 9: meet the toes, All right, look at that, and then

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Speaker 9: you look at that kind of striped area that's kind

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Speaker 9: of highlighted if you can really see it on the

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Speaker 9: heel of this shoe, Well, that's unique to that shoe.

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Speaker 9: And Nancy and forensic science, that comes down to something.

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Speaker 9: There's a principle that we have that's referred to as individualization.

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Speaker 9: That means that we're tying specific brands items back to

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Speaker 9: a particular person. And so all of those when you

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Speaker 9: take that total aggregate there and you kind of shake

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Speaker 9: it down, you're looking for something that is going to

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Speaker 9: be unique to that individual. Where could he have purchased

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Speaker 9: these shoes? Do they show any kind of wear on

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Speaker 9: them on the sides at all. And again through the enhancement,

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Speaker 9: perhaps the digital enhancement that the FBI is going to

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Speaker 9: render up, that's going to be a very specific identifier

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Speaker 9: for these. And again going back to branding, we talked

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Speaker 9: about the book bag, We've talked about the shoes. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 9: by the way, what about the holster as well? Remember

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Speaker 9: there was talk that that was potentially purchased through Walmart,

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Speaker 9: either online or maybe at a store itself. So you've

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Speaker 9: got three things here that we're looking at.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you also, Joscott Morgan, about

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Speaker 1: speculation that blood was found inside inside Nancy Guthries a

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Speaker 1: front door. If there was a rug there, you know,

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Speaker 1: like an entrance hall, an entrance area rug that's very

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Speaker 1: very common that may have those blood spots may have

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Speaker 1: escaped detection because it blends in with a rug. How

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Speaker 1: do you go about getting blood spotterer if there is

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Speaker 1: any from off the rug.

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Speaker 9: Well, you're not going to get it off. That's an

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Speaker 9: excellent question. You're not going to get it off. You

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Speaker 9: don't want to remove it, But what you want to

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Speaker 9: do is test it. Okay, So what they're going to

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Speaker 9: do first and This is kind of fascinating. People might

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Speaker 9: be interested in this. If they take that rug, they're

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Speaker 9: going to subject it to alternative light sources back at

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Speaker 9: the State Crime Lab or with the FBI, And what

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Speaker 9: that means is they're going to utilize things like infrared

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Speaker 9: photography and they're going to see if they can't enhance

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Speaker 9: any kind of stains that might be on that rug. Now,

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Speaker 9: can we definitively say that that stain came about as

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Speaker 9: a result of this event with her, No, we can't

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Speaker 9: necessarily say that. However, the presence of some kind of

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Speaker 9: biological sample there is significant.

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Speaker 1: So what you wanted to mind for Joe Scott, Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott plays come out of your ivory tower for just

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Speaker 1: one moment. There's blood on a front porch. If there's

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Speaker 1: blood just on the inside of the door, what do

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Speaker 1: you think she cut her legs shaving right there? Of

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Speaker 1: course it's connected.

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Speaker 9: Well, it could very well be. And it could be

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Speaker 9: that she had a spontaneous bloody nose as well, And

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Speaker 9: I think that people would.

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Speaker 1: Argue that put him up. So you're telling me, with

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Speaker 1: blood on the front porch the night she's kidnapped, you're

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Speaker 1: actually trying to suggest that one day she's walking by

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Speaker 1: her front door and she suddenly has a spontaneous nosebleed. No,

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Speaker 1: it would be connected. You know, just pretend with me,

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Speaker 1: go out on a limb. It's connected. It was from

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Speaker 1: the same night. Blood on the outside of the door,

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Speaker 1: blood on the inside of the door. I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: you about getting blood, DNA spatter aspirated. I don't know

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Speaker 1: off the interior rug, if there is one at the

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Speaker 1: front door, and if it was overlooked by Nanos's people

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Speaker 1: when they first went in. Think, think, think, ye, it'd

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Speaker 1: still be there on the rug, Joe Scott, That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying.

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Speaker 9: Well, hopefully they did collect it at that moment, Tom

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Speaker 9: and preserve it. Uh, if for no other reason to

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Speaker 9: get it.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't that go without saying. I mean, it's way out

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Speaker 1: of my promise to correct a professor of forensics. But

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Speaker 1: of course I hope they got the blood. I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: all my tin steps ahead of you right now. Of

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Speaker 1: course I hope they got the blood.

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Speaker 9: I tell you this. I hope that they got the

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Speaker 9: rug that was going into the house. They didn't know,

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Speaker 9: did they they left it out there?

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Speaker 10: No?

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Speaker 1: They didn't.

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Speaker 9: Oh really, I saw it in the image. I saw

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Speaker 9: it in the image there, Nancy. Now maybe they came

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Speaker 9: back later and collected it, but they didn't collect it

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Speaker 9: in the moment. And let me tell you one other thing.

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Speaker 1: If you why they didn't, it's probably still sitting there,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, that's why. That's why I want it explored.

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Speaker 9: Well, yeah, I wanted to explore too. And you know,

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Speaker 9: I'm more than happy to go teach classes for these

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Speaker 9: people because obviously they skipped over the day where we

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Speaker 9: talk about securing and collecting evidence because they didn't in

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Speaker 9: that first pass that they did. Now, I don't know

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Speaker 9: who showed up that thirty six hours later. I hope

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Speaker 9: they had the good sense to collect it. I hope

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Speaker 9: they had the good sense to collect everything inside of

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Speaker 9: that door, Nancy, and anything else that's on that surface

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Speaker 9: in that house. Because let me tell you something, the

397
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 9: clock is ticking. It has been ticking now for many,

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Speaker 9: many weeks, and they missed something initially here. That is,

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Speaker 9: this guy is stomping all over that rug putting back up.

400
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Speaker 9: Show the video of him walking up, he's walking up

401
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Speaker 9: to that he's putting his feet down there in the

402
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 9: nest camera video that we're looking at Nancy. You know,

403
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Speaker 9: that's a pretty significant piece of evidence because not only

404
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 9: do we have blood depth position on the surrounding area

405
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 9: and you can't see it on that rug gee, I

406
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 9: wonder why, because it's black. You would have to have

407
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 9: some kind of contrast medium to be able to show

408
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Speaker 9: it up right there. And then I guarantee you dollars

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Speaker 9: to donuts there's blood deposition on that doormat right there.

410
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Speaker 9: And God only knows what's inside of the house, like

411
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 9: you said, in the receiving area, if there is a

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Speaker 9: carpeted space in there, if there's a welcome matt you

413
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Speaker 9: know where you wipe your feet and all that sort

414
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Speaker 9: of thing, or even a runner you know you think

415
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Speaker 9: about that, Well, you can have blood deposition there as well.

416
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Speaker 9: So it draws into question for me from a forensic standpoint,

417
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Speaker 9: is there going to be value here? Because once you

418
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Speaker 9: do not secure the scene, then all bets are off.

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Speaker 9: You're going to have the lawyers that are going to

420
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 9: come in and say, well, anybody could have come up

421
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 9: to that location after this and could have planned anything,

422
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 9: or it could have been destroyed, or it could have

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Speaker 9: been altered. This is a train wreck. Nancy, pure and simple,

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Speaker 9: Pure and simple. When you look at this.

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Speaker 1: You were seeing video earlier from our friends of Fox News.

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Speaker 1: And I want to point out the reason Joe Scott,

427
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: Morgan and I are angry and upset tonight is because

428
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Speaker 1: we see errors, We see mishandling of the crime scene.

429
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Speaker 1: We see possibilities that may very well still exist that

430
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Speaker 1: could give us clues, not just clues, evidence as to

431
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Speaker 1: who took Nancy Guthrie. And we're going to go down

432
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Speaker 1: swinging fighting. When we hit bottom, we'll still be swinging up.

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Speaker 1: That is why Joe Scott and I and everybody on

434
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: this panel tonight, it's still fighting, still angry, still searching,

435
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: still looking for answers. Another idea, Joe Scott Morgan the

436
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: back door. Oh hey, I want you to hear what

437
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: Savannah said about the blood. Listen, Joe Scott, she can't wonder.

438
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 10: If she was tremendous pain. Her back was very bad,

439
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 10: so there was no wander off and the doors were

440
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 10: popped opin. Yeah, and there was blood on the front

441
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 10: doors and the ring camera had been bunked off.

442
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: So Joe Scott, we hear her saying there was blood

443
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: on the doorstep that's what they saw that morning. That

444
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: does not preclude blood on the rug in the entrance hall,

445
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: or blood in the entrance hall, which they would definitely

446
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: have stepped on the purp and Missus Guthrie would have

447
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: stepped on the blood on the inside, and maybe Annie,

448
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: maybe the husband, maybe the police had they not seen it,

449
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: but it could still actually be there. That was from

450
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: today YouTube, by the way, Okay, Joe Scott jump in.

451
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's any number of places you think about. Let's

452
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 9: just say we're talking about a carpet. Okay, it's interwoven,

453
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 9: so you can actually have blood deposition that actually gets

454
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 9: into the weave of the carpet. And again, even with

455
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 9: any kind of trace evidence, this is very delicate stuff.

456
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 9: You have to be very very careful about it where

457
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 9: you're trying to pull things out or try to enhance

458
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 9: them so that you can examine. Because there's two types

459
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 9: of examination that we're thinking about here. First off, if

460
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 9: there is in fact biological data contained within the rug,

461
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 9: you have to be able to assess that. And then

462
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 9: if there is blood deposition, which means that there is

463
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 9: a specific pattern, that has to be a set. So

464
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 9: we're talking about photography and we're talking about biological assessment

465
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 9: in the lab.

466
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: Nancy from our friends at Fox News. Two other quick

467
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: items Jo Scott Morgan. One, we know the door was

468
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: propped open in the back. What evidence can we get

469
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: from that door knob? How is it propped open? Was

470
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: it propped up one with a rock? Can I get

471
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: DNA off that? Was it propped up one with a chair?

472
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: Did they move it with their hands? Did they all

473
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: wear gloves? What can I get from that?

474
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 4: Oh?

475
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 9: My god? You know, I think about the surface of

476
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 9: what you know. When Savannah says it was propped open,

477
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 9: all right, that doesn't just mean that it's open. That

478
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 9: means that some item That generally implies that some item

479
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 9: was used to facilitate that, right, So I am thinking

480
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 9: about things like trace evidence relative to fingerprints. I'm thinking

481
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 9: about any kind of deposition relative to potential DNA. If

482
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 9: it is a rock, if it's an iron bar, if

483
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 9: it's a piece of wood, I don't know. And also

484
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 9: you think about, in addition to that, any kind of

485
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 9: trace evidence that might be on the doorknob or on

486
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 9: the actual door jam where you're actually opening the door,

487
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 9: where you're putting your hands on there to try to

488
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 9: get it open and propped. I wonder if we can

489
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 9: put into this world, into this environment, the idea that

490
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 9: it could have been pride. All right now they're saying

491
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,959
Speaker 9: no signs of force entry. That's something that I'm going

492
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 9: to be very curious about. Was lock jimmied in any way?

493
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 9: We had talked about lock picking some time ago. Did

494
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 9: somebody get access to that lock or is it commonly unlocked?

495
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 9: That's a big question too, because some people will seppear

496
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 9: in their homes. Maybe she left it unlocked.

497
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: That's from Fox Flight Team. That's a really good point,

498
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, because we heard that Missus Guthrie sometimes left

499
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: her back door unlocked. So there's so many directions to go. Okay,

500
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: what were you to say?

501
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 9: No, I was just saying that I think that the

502
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 9: idea here is was there were there Are there any

503
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 9: tool marks on that door whatsoever? Or there any tool

504
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 9: marks on the key access area that that point where

505
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 9: you make contact with the with the key going into

506
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 9: the lock. Did anybody pry anything? Was anything pressure? Did

507
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 9: somebody put his shoulder into it? Does it open ind

508
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 9: does it open out? Is it something you have to pull?

509
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 9: So all of those dynamics come into play, and when

510
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 9: you're at a crime scene, Nancy, this is how your

511
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 9: brain has to work as an investigator. You want to

512
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 9: consider all possibilities.

513
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: Another issue, and this goes to Iker. We saw in

514
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: the Chile Writtenhouse case that sat images satellite images were used,

515
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: actually they were infrared images. Explain how that helped crack

516
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: the case and bring out the truth in the Written

517
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: House incident.

518
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 5: The problem is you cannot predict when the satellites are

519
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 5: going to come over and use and find the video

520
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 5: or imagery at the time of the crime is very

521
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 5: very unusual, so actual imagery is not very helpful. Ninety

522
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 5: nine percent of the time. The one percent of the

523
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 5: time that there is some sort of satellite or aerial

524
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 5: drone or plane doing mapping, that's a possibility that it

525
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 5: randomly came over a crime scene at a specific time.

526
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 5: But there's so many different things that could cause you

527
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 5: not to get the image, like clouds or a storm

528
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 5: or something like that. You can't the satellites can't see

529
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 5: the ground at those specific times.

530
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: Let me see, Iker, Iker, you know what I don't like.

531
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: I don't like anybody telling me why something's impossible. I

532
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: like somebody telling me possibilities. Yes, I know about clouds.

533
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer, but I know clouds will

534
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: obstruct an airplane's vision of the earth below. I understand

535
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: that concept. So tell me how it could work. Man,

536
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: I'm looking for answers here. I'm upset that we're at

537
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 1: day fifty nine and seemingly not any closer to finding

538
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. So I'm looking for answers. I don't need

539
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: to hear why it might not work. Throw me a bone, icher,

540
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: how could it work?

541
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 5: I totally agree with you. We're all frustrated at this situation.

542
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 5: And I was explaining that you know, the FBI and

543
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 5: we always want to look at all the possibilities. Well,

544
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 5: also have to take into the fact that when we

545
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 5: go for this type of evidence, we have to be

546
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 5: lucky if things actually happen the way we want.

547
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: Example, Well, then how would I find it? Tell me

548
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: how I can get lucky? Okay, how can I find

549
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: infrared aerial surveillance? How do I find it? What do

550
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: I do if it's there? Yes, I know it may

551
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: not be there. Yes I know it may be cloudy.

552
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: I get it, But how do I find it? Show

553
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: me a path to a maybe a definite Maybe this.

554
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 5: Is exactly like the video from the front porch. Remember

555
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: that Pima County sheriff said, there's nothing there. You've got

556
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 5: to follow those those crumb breadcrumbs and keep pushing to

557
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 5: try to find it. So we got the video, so

558
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 5: let's go see what aerial satellites or aerial drones or

559
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 5: other stuff that were in the area at the time

560
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 5: that the crime occurred. So maybe we will get something there.

561
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 5: You don't leave it to chance. You've got to fight

562
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 5: for it and continue pushing to get to the end

563
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 5: of and get that evidence.

564
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: Okay, be honest with me. Wo the Feds consider this,

565
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: Would they have already thought of this?

566
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 5: Yes, they would have. I've done it in my cases.

567
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: Okay, back to you, Dave Matt. I want to hear

568
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: about a vehicle of interest. I'm understanding that it would

569
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: be a gray suv or a gray pickup a silver

570
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: or gray suv and or a silver or gray pickup truck.

571
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: Is this truth and the reason I'm asking I'm going

572
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: somewhere with this. I'm going to a secondary crime scene.

573
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: That's where I'm going. So tell me what you know

574
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: about potential vehicle of interest.

575
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: Since the beginning of this investigation, they've been the investigators

576
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: have been trying to identify vehicles of interest and they've

577
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: narrowed it down to two specifically, one a white van,

578
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: the other a gray or silver suv or pickout truck

579
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: as you mentioned. So we're looking at two basic types

580
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: of vehicles that are believed to have been possibly in

581
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: the neighborhoods that are unaccounted for, meaning they don't belong

582
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: to anyone that lives there or a resident that had

583
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: a friend in the neighborhood.

584
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 4: So we're talking about two vehicles that.

585
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 3: Were in the neighborhood that have been drawn down to

586
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: by investigators as interest.

587
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 4: Now FBI and p MC County Sheriff's deputies they.

588
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 3: Searched and towed a gray or silver Range Rover, if

589
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 3: you remember that from the Culver's restaurant, about two miles

590
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 3: away from the parking lot, two miles away from Nancy

591
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 3: Guthrie's home. We saw that that happened thirteen days into

592
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 3: the investigation. We've also seen early on investigators were at

593
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: a Circle K gas station on Oracle Road in Tucson. Again,

594
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 3: this is about a mile and a half two miles

595
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 3: from Nancy Guthries's home where they were investigating a vehicle

596
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 3: of interest trying to get video a surveillance video from

597
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 3: the circle K. These are two ongoing issues and they've

598
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: narrowed it down to the white van or the gray

599
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 3: silver suv or truck.

600
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: They seemed to be off the white van and now

601
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: onto the gray or silver truck or suv, and I

602
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: guarantee iker they're getting something and it fits in with

603
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 1: the vehicle that was towed and other vehicles of interests

604
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 1: they've been looking at SUV's trucks, gray or silver. Question

605
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: to you, I remember when we were investigating the top

606
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: Mom case, Kane Casey Anthony. It's actually the Kalie Anthony case.

607
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: She was the two year old murder victim. And I

608
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: think it was either Target or Walmart could enhance the

609
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: video of top Mom writing a fake check, fraudulently writing

610
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: a check on a friend's checking account so well I

611
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: could practically see her cleavage, which I did not need

612
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: to see. Why can't the FBI or can they enhance

613
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: that video that we keep showing in the hopes that

614
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: someone will recognize a vehicle? Can they are they is

615
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: that what's happening right now.

616
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 5: It all depends on the quality of the video initially

617
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 5: so and can they slow it down? It depends on

618
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 5: the amount of frames per second that that recording and

619
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 5: it initially has. When you can slow it down, if

620
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 5: there's more frames per second, you get more detail. If

621
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 5: you get have less frames per second, it's very grainy,

622
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 5: and that's where you run into some problems. But you

623
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 5: know they're working on it there hopefully get a maybe

624
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 5: a download from the company itself and not from the

625
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 5: neighborhood neighbor who provided that video.

626
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: Susanna Ryan joining us LAB director forensic DNA analyst at

627
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: Pure Gold Forensics. Susannah I mentioned the reason I'm curious,

628
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: the reason I want to find that vehicle is because

629
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: it represents a secondary crime scene. Explain the significance of

630
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: finding that secondary crime scene.

631
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 6: Well, if we're able to locate that vehicle, and we

632
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 6: know that Nancy was bleeding, so it's likely we'll be

633
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 6: able to find her blood. But what else is going

634
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 6: to be in that vehicle is the suspects DNA. You know,

635
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 6: even if they stole this vehicle, for example, it takes

636
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 6: a very short amount of time for some want to

637
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 6: leave their DNA behind in a vehicle, even if they're

638
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 6: trying to avoid that, you know, I mean I always

639
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 6: think of people shedding DNA like you know, like pig

640
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 6: Pen and Charlie Brown, Like you're constantly leaving DNA behind.

641
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 6: Every time you speak, You're leaving DNA behind. So anything

642
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 6: on that vehicle could have perpetrator's DNA, steering wheel, gearshift,

643
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 6: you know, any controls or knobs, the door going in

644
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 6: and out of the vehicle, So it would be highly propriate,

645
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 6: you know, very useful to find that vehicle. I think

646
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 6: it's great that now we have something to look for.

647
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 6: That was exactly what I was going to say today,

648
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 6: like what is the vehicle? Do we have anything? I

649
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 6: think it should be released because people want to help.

650
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 6: If people start seeing, oh there's a car that hasn't

651
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 6: moved for days in this parking lot, then they can

652
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 6: leave a tip and maybe that's that's the key to

653
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 6: solving this case.

654
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the FBI trying to reverse

655
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 1: engineer what could be two legitimate ransom notes. This amid

656
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: reports that missus S. Guthrie's home was found immaculate when

657
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: her daughter, Annie came rushing in. What if anything does

658
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: that mean to CSI crime scene investigators? Trust me, it

659
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 1: means a lot. And tonight did a dog named Jolene

660
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: Foyle the kidnappers original plan. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.

661
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. I want to thank you for

662
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: being with us.

663
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 11: Dogs are usually sound slavers, full confession. When the dog

664
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 11: woke me up to say I've got to go outside,

665
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 11: I was grudgingly accommodating and took the dog out to

666
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 11: our little courtyard in the back of our house.

667
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 7: And it was unusual and it seldom happens.

668
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 10: I mean from the very early moments, you know, Annie

669
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 10: and Tommy were saying, this isn't this isn't that case

670
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 10: that you are used to where someone wanders off. She

671
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 10: can't wander off, my mom. She was in tremendous pain.

672
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 10: Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to.

673
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 10: On a good day she could walk down to the

674
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 10: mailbox and get the mail, but most days not. So

675
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 10: there was no wander off, and the doors were popped open. Yeah,

676
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 10: and there was blood on the front doors.

677
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: That is from our friends today on YouTube and joining

678
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: us now special guest jeff le me, Nancy Guthrie's neighbor

679
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: who pastor often when they will both be out walking

680
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. Jeff let me, thank you for joining

681
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: us again. Tonight we are learning the back door was

682
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: propped open. Recent reports the home was quote immaculate. In

683
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: other words, Nancy Guthrie kept a perfect home. But yet

684
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: we see Jeff le me, and I'm sure you've seen it.

685
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: Let's show it again. The porch guy on the front porch.

686
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: He is approaching Nancy Guthrie's front door, looking around. He's like, whoopsie,

687
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: there's a door, cam let me attack it. He's trying

688
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: to dislodge it right there. Ultimately we know Savannah tells

689
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: us it was dislodged there. He's like, hmm, can't get

690
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: it off. I'll put foliage over it. That will work,

691
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: which makes me question his intelligence. But that said, he's

692
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: managed to elude authorities now for sixty days. Clearly the

693
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: original plan was to take missus Guthrie out the back door.

694
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: It was all propped open. Jeff, let me, what is

695
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: the name of your dog?

696
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 7: Jolene? Named after the song.

697
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: By Dolly Parton. Of course, so jeff let me tell

698
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: me again what happened that night, how unusual it was,

699
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: and did you have any idea that about four doors

700
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: down your dog was very likely foiling a kidnappers plan

701
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 1: to take Nancy Guthrie out the back door.

702
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 11: Our dogs are sound sleeper, so this was really unusual

703
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 11: for the dogs to wake us up at that hour.

704
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 11: Were horrified as a community, speaking to neighbors, speaking to

705
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 11: people we know here, people just cannot imagine what she

706
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 11: went through that evening and how shocking this is and how.

707
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 7: Terrible this is.

708
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: That night your dog out of the blues only happened

709
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: one other time to your recollection, and that would have

710
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: been on January the eleventh.

711
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 11: Absolutely, that was another night that we were questioned, and

712
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 11: when we went through the camera data with the investigators,

713
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 11: that's when we discovered it was the other night that

714
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 11: where this happened. And as I've noted, it hasn't happened since,

715
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 11: so perhaps the animals, the dogs were aware of some activity.

716
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 11: As I noted, one of the evenings our cameras went

717
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 11: offline that night. We had discussions with the investigators whether

718
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 11: or not that was a coincidence, whether it was spotty

719
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 11: service that we have with sell and what have you here?

720
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 11: Or it has some meaning and I hope that all

721
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 11: these issues, the dogs and cameras can add some value

722
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 11: to what happened.

723
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: Mister le me. Has it occurred to you that your dog,

724
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: a dog barking, foiled the kidnappers plan? We know that

725
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: they had the back door propped wide open. We think

726
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 1: maybe according to one source, by Missus Guthrie's own flower pots,

727
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: that was the plan. If that door was meant just

728
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: to go in and get Missus Guthrie and go out

729
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: in the front, they wouldn't have propped it open behind them.

730
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: That was the plan. But your dog barking, I believe,

731
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: may have foiled their plan and they had to go

732
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: out the front. So do you know that you've actually

733
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: been attacked furiously online after you visited with us before,

734
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: people wondering, wow, how did he happen to bring up

735
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: that his dogs went crazy on jan eleven and the

736
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: early morning hours of FAB one. You didn't know. You

737
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: didn't know until the fans asked you to look at

738
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: your video, isn't that right?

739
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 7: That's correct? I mean we didn't.

740
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 11: We dismissed this as maybe this you know, so the

741
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 11: inconvenient of a dog waking you up in the early

742
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 11: hour morning morning hour, minister, of the evening, and just

743
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 11: being going back to that, and we didn't have that

744
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 11: correlation until later on when we were in discussions. You know, people,

745
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 11: you know, the reality is that your people can be critical,

746
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 11: but the community overall is trying to be supportive of

747
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 11: the investigation, supportive and compassionate about the family that suffered,

748
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 11: has suffered incredibly and we have to put that aside

749
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 11: and this move forward and try to be as helpful

750
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 11: as we can.

751
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: Mister Lama, again, about what time was it that Jolaine

752
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: insisted on going outside?

753
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 11: So if this is an approximate time, I think it

754
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 11: was at one am. Was the time that the dogs

755
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 11: woke us up and took us you know, you know,

756
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 11: encouraged me to take her outside, and she noticed activity

757
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 11: and was staring towards the direction of the home and processing.

758
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: Now of course missus Guthrie's home.

759
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, and at that hour I noticed this in the video,

760
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 11: My task was to take Jolene outside, have her do

761
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 11: her business, so to speak, and then take her back

762
00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 11: in at ist notice that, but that was you know,

763
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 11: as we discussed earlier, perhaps this could help with timeframe

764
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 11: or awareness of maybe some where some activity was taking place.

765
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: Let's see the timeline quickly, control room. If I could

766
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: look at that. One forty seven am, the door cam

767
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: disconnects and your dog, Joline and Joline's companion wake you

768
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: up and take you out around one forty What did

769
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: she do to wake you up? And you said, encourage

770
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: you to take her out? My dog barks his head off.

771
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: What did she do?

772
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 11: Julie is a very affectionate dog. She started to look

773
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 11: my face, which is her signal to wake up and

774
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 11: I need you, I need your help. And so she

775
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 11: was licking my face and greeting me, and that is

776
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 11: a signal to say I need to go outside.

777
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: So you take her ound around one forty am. And

778
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: let me be clear, you did not realize. The only

779
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: other time to your recollection she has insisted, did you

780
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: take around I'm referring to Joline was on jan eleven.

781
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 11: January eleven, Yes, and we haven't had My wife and

782
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 11: I were discussing this. We haven't had that happen since

783
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 11: and this was very I mean, they're not puppies, you know,

784
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 11: this was not typical behavior at all.

785
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: So question to you What is your neighborhood been like

786
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: since Miss Gutherie went missing?

787
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 11: You know, people are trying to be supported of the family.

788
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 7: I was very moved.

789
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 11: A bunch of folks came together and people heartfelt. People

790
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 11: have put flowers and displays in front of the home,

791
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 11: and people came together to clean up the displays. You know,

792
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 11: people have are thinking about her. The yellow ribbons that

793
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 11: you've seen in the neighborhood. We're saddened. We all saw

794
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 11: the interview. You can't help but be moved and heartbroken

795
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 11: by the the pain that family suffered, and truly truly

796
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 11: want some resolution and some solace to come from this.

797
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: Have you observed any activity at missus Guthrie's home. You know,

798
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 1: there are still.

799
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 11: A few streamers about, but beyond that, I mean, the

800
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 11: neighborhood has settled down.

801
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 7: I do see people.

802
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 11: Coming and I think it's very meaningful to them to.

803
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 7: Kind of stand in front of the home and process.

804
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 7: But it's it's been much quieter. But despite it being quieter,

805
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 7: what about by law enforcement?

806
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 11: You know, you know I've not seen once again. I

807
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 11: walked by twice a day with the dogs. I have

808
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 11: not seen a lot of activity. I know there's security

809
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 11: around the house. There's been a security system set up,

810
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 11: a little bit of media, but I've not seen personally activity.

811
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 7: But then again, I'm only walking twice a day.

812
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: Did your dog Joelane know missus Guthrie? Perhaps we passed

813
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: her quite often, right, We.

814
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 7: Saw less of her.

815
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 11: Recently, but early on, when we've lived here six years,

816
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 11: we would walk by the home and at that time

817
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 11: we would see her up front with her dog at times.

818
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 11: So perhaps my sight and we all know that dogs

819
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 11: have incredible sense of smell, so.

820
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: Perhaps question did she still have her dog?

821
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 7: My understanding is that her dog.

822
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 11: This is under an understanding that someone had expressed to

823
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 11: me that in December that perhaps her dog had passed away,

824
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 11: but we had not seen her dog recently.

825
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: That video you saw us for our friends at Fox

826
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: five in Vegas. What was your response to the haters

827
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: and how does it make you feel that your dog,

828
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 1: Joelane specifically may have thwarted the kidnappers plan.

829
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 11: You know, I initially I was not going to talk

830
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 11: to the media, but someone encouraged me and said that

831
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 11: this keeps attention on this case, It keeps awareness of

832
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 11: the reward, it keeps awareness of someone perhaps coming forth

833
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 11: with information that might be helpful.

834
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 7: So there would be a value to doing this. And

835
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 7: there are people who are going to be critical, but

836
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 7: the reality is.

837
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 11: Perhaps this can add value, and I'm going to dismiss

838
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 11: those criticisms and move forward, and let's try to be helpful,

839
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 11: Let's try to be supportive, and let's try to move

840
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 11: forward and move towards perhaps some resolution, some solace, some

841
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 11: progress with this case.

842
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: Jeff let me joining us. He is the owner of Jolene,

843
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: the dog, who may very well have thwarted the kidnappers'

844
00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: original plans.

845
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 10: That night, everybody, I wanted to come on and just

846
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 10: share a few thoughts as we enter into another week

847
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 10: of this nightmare.

848
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: Tonight, we learned the FBI is trying to reverse engineer

849
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: what could be two legitimate ransom notes. We are also

850
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: learning that the crime scene where Missus Guthrie was literally

851
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: dragged out off her bed, no shoes and pj's was

852
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: quote immaculate when LA law enforcement got there, and when

853
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: Annie and her husband got there.

854
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 10: Listen, I mean from the very early moments, you know,

855
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 10: Annie and Tommy were saying, this isn't this isn't that

856
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 10: case that you are used to where someone wanders off.

857
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 10: She can't wander off. My mom her she was in

858
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 10: tremendous page. Her back was very bad. You know, she

859
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 10: was trying to On a good day she could walk

860
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 10: down into the mailbox and get the mail, but most

861
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 10: days not.

862
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: And the doors were propped on bin yeh.

863
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 10: And there was blood on the front doors, and the

864
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 10: ring camera had been yanked off, and so we were saying, this.

865
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 4: Is do something.

866
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 10: This is not okay, Yeah, this isn't. Something is very

867
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 10: wrong here.

868
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. From our friends at Today on YouTube, as a

869
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: matter of fact, they thought Annie thought that there had

870
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: been a medical emergency because the home was not ransacked

871
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: in any way. Straight out to Bob Krieger, joining me

872
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: out of Arizona, this jurisdiction, former SWAT commander at p

873
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:57,760
Speaker 1: MC County Sheriff's Office, thirty years in law enforcement. They're

874
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: in Arizona, Bob Kreeger, thank you for being with us tonight.

875
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: I understand why Savannah and sister Annie thought that they

876
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: go in. Everything as we're hearing is pristine and quote immaculate,

877
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 1: not what you would expect in a kidnapping, saying right,

878
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: not at all.

879
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 5: If I would have.

880
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 12: Walked into that scene, I would have thought to myself,

881
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 12: you know, nothing really happened here, and hearing the way

882
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 12: it's been described all of those things, the first thought

883
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 12: I would have had as well, probably as a first

884
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 12: responder and an officer, and seeing this probably a medical emergency,

885
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 12: start reaching out to the paramedics, the local fire agencies,

886
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 12: see if they had any calls to Nancy's house, and

887
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 12: then proceed from there. But to hear that it was

888
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 12: there were no signs of a struggle inside or anything

889
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,760
Speaker 12: like that. Even if it were, you know, a medical

890
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 12: emergency on her part, you would see something, something would

891
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 12: be knocked over probably, So yeah, it's very surprising to

892
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 12: hear that was immaculate.

893
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: Decide, you know, think about it, though, Bomb, she's eighty

894
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 1: four years old. Eighty four years old. Without her hearing aids,

895
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: she can't hear what the purpose saying. She doesn't know

896
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: what they're saying. I assume that she doesn't have twenty

897
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 1: twenty or twenty nineteen vision. I don't know what she

898
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: could see was happening being woken up at two o'clock

899
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: in the morning. So do you really think, Bob, that

900
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 1: she could put up much of a struggle. My mom,

901
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: who's ninety four, can barely stand up. I have to

902
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: hold her to get her from the love seat to

903
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: the wheelchair or the walker. And it's a good day

904
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: that she can walk from her room through the kitchen

905
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: back to the twins rooms. That's a good day. So

906
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: how much of a fight do you really think Nancy

907
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: Guthrie could put up?

908
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 12: Not much of a fight at all, if any everything

909
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 12: that you hit on, you know, if she were in

910
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 12: that ste you know, even if she would have fallen

911
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 12: over or slipped, you would think there would be some

912
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 12: signs of something in disarray. Trying to carry one hundred

913
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 12: and fifty pound woman holding her up doing however, you're

914
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 12: trying to get.

915
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 7: Her from point A to point B.

916
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 12: Something's gonna get bumped, something's gonna get knocked, a vase

917
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 12: is gonna get knocked over. You're gonna see something, And

918
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 12: that's what the investigators are looking for as far as

919
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 12: signs of a struggle go. It doesn't necessarily mean there's

920
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 12: a fight going on. But she is not moving easily.

921
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 12: And imagine how scared someone's going to be in that instance.

922
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 7: They're not gonna, you know, just go with you.

923
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 12: But they're gonna be pulled and pushed, and all of

924
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 12: those things are happening, So you would expect to see

925
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 12: something out of place.

926
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: Somewhere and again, Bob Krieger, former SWAT commander there in

927
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: p mccounty thirty years. For all I know, she may

928
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: have had on a second pair of hearing aids. She

929
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: may have had on her glasses. But even if even

930
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 1: if she did, she couldn't put up a fight. She

931
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: couldn't even walk to the mailbox. So I don't know

932
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: why everybody's acting like, oh, there was no struggle. She

933
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: couldn't struggle. Are they that surprised that she kept her

934
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,399
Speaker 1: home as neat as a pen? The purp went in,

935
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: got her and went out. You said you found it unusual.

936
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: I don't find it unusual at all. When my mom

937
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: lived at home, her home was immaculate, perfect at all times.

938
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: She wouldn't go to bed if there was a dish

939
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: in the sink. So why is everyone so surprised that

940
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: the home was immaculate, including you, Kraiger. Why Because if.

941
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 12: Someone comes into your house and you're not expecting them,

942
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 12: my house is fairly immaculate as well, and there's going

943
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 12: to be something that's going to be out of place.

944
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 12: It's just you're not going to acquiesce to their demands.

945
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 12: I don't care how old, You're going to use every

946
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 12: ounce of energy you have to fight that person off,

947
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 12: and something's probably gonna get.

948
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: Get Yeah, you bob, how tall are you?

949
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 4: I'm six one.

950
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: How much do you weigh?

951
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 7: About two hundred and five pounds?

952
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: And I bet you work out right.

953
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 5: Regularly.

954
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: Yes, I bet you could put up a fight. She couldn't.

955
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: If somebody tried to drag you out of your bet

956
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: at two am hgl yes, the place would be torn apart.

957
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: But again, you keep talking about putting up a fight.

958
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: Didn't you just agree with me? Nancy Guthrie cannot put

959
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: up a fight. They picked on an Lol, a little

960
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: old lady. She can barely walk. There's not evidence of

961
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: a fight. I don't know why. Why are you saying

962
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: that there would be evidence of a fight. Just answer

963
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: me succinctly.

964
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 7: They're not evidence.

965
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 12: Of a fight, evidence of something happening, movement, something knocked over.

966
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: I don't care.

967
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 12: If you're alive, you're going to fight somewhat. You're going

968
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 12: to push something, knock something over. Not saying a knockdown,

969
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 12: drag out fight. But there's going to be signs of

970
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 12: something happening in there that's unusual at the family.

971
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 2: Who is he?

972
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 3: You mean?

973
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: Like maybe blood on the doorstep and the door propped

974
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: open in the back. Maybe something like that. Would that

975
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: qualify in your mind for evidence that something went wrong?

976
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 12: Yes, things such as that, something simple, something subtle, that

977
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 12: might not stick out to the normal person, but to

978
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 12: Annie when the family gets there and they're walking through

979
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 12: the saying that's not right, that's out of place, not

980
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 12: saying that the house would have been ransacked, drawers pulled out,

981
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:37,919
Speaker 12: things like that.

982
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: Okay, now you and I are on the same page.

983
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: I get it, And the last thing I want to

984
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: do is take on a former SWAT commander from Pema County.

985
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 1: I want to agree with you, but at this juncture,

986
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 1: when I hear claims thrown out that contradict the fact

987
00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: that she was kidnapped, I don't like it because there

988
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: is no other solution. There is no other answer right now.

989
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: This was not a burglary gone wrong. This was not

990
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: a this was not a theft. They didn't come in

991
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: to steal and go, oh you know what, forget taking

992
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: the money. I'm just going to take the eighty four

993
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 1: year old grandma that didn't happen. Dave Mack joining US

994
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. What is the significance of these

995
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: claims that the home was immaculate? Why is everyone going

996
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: cray over that, because, of course rahim's immaculate.

997
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes sense to me.

998
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 3: But you know, Nancy, I'm a little confused over initial

999
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 3: reports that said other things, that there were things out

1000
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 3: of place, they knew something that law enforcement said they

1001
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 3: knew something happened right away and immediately called in homicide detectives.

1002
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 3: So immaculate, I guess that means furniture is in its

1003
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 3: proper place, there's no dirt on the floor that they

1004
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 3: can see. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what

1005
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: they mean by immaculate. Most homes I've been into that

1006
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 3: have an elderly person, they are immaculate. Everything's where it belongs,

1007
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 3: everything is in its proper place. But you're talking about

1008
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 3: getting an eighty four year old woman out of that house, Nancy,

1009
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 3: I agree with you one hundred percent. She's not going

1010
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 3: to be easily taken out of the house because she

1011
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 3: doesn't move well. It's going to require a lot. It's

1012
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 3: going to require at least two people to get her

1013
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 3: out of the house. And if you doubt, I don't

1014
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 3: see how things can't be bumped.

1015
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 4: So I'm a little confused over this idea.

1016
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: I don't understand why you're saying you're confused. What's confusing you.

1017
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: I'm not confused at all.

1018
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm thinking if I was to help take someone

1019
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 3: out of a home that is not able to move

1020
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 3: on their own, I would be bumping into stuff. If

1021
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 3: I don't know the layout, I would be knocking things over.

1022
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 3: It just seems obvious to me. And by the way,

1023
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 3: if I'm kidnapping somebody, I'm not going back to.

1024
01:01:58,120 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 4: Pick it up.

1025
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 3: The back door being open, that does not seem immaculate

1026
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 3: to me. The back door open indicates it's not immaculate.

1027
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 3: So I'm just That's where I'm confused.

1028
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 4: Nancy. I don't get the idea.

1029
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 3: That they got an eighty four year old woman out

1030
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 3: of the house without messing something up.

1031
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you this, Dave mac having had

1032
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: my mom live with us now almost eleven years, I

1033
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: don't knock the furniture over when I get her out

1034
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: on her walker, and I have to carry her to

1035
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 1: put her on the walker and push her out because

1036
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: you don't want to be in a wheelchair. She'd rather

1037
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 1: me pull her on her walker. But I don't knock

1038
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: over the furniture. I'm very curious why you think that

1039
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 1: would have to happen, because it does to what I

1040
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: want to hear this.

1041
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 3: You know what you're doing. It's your mother. You're being

1042
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 3: careful with her. You know the layout, you know where

1043
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 3: the chairs are, you know where everything is. Nancy, you

1044
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 3: put it there.

1045
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: You can see where the chairs are. I don't need

1046
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,479
Speaker 1: to know. I don't need to see a floor plan

1047
01:02:58,560 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: to see a chair.

1048
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 4: I'm just saying somebody who's in there can take over.

1049
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 1: Got you all tied up in knots, I'm gonna let

1050
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 1: you untie them yourself to Brian Fitzgibbons, joining us Director

1051
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 1: Operations USPA nation Wide Security, leading a team of investigators

1052
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: around the world finding and extracting missing people former Marine

1053
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: Iraqi war vet. I don't think you need to trash

1054
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: the place or turn over the furniture to get an

1055
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: eighty four year old grandma out of the home, especially

1056
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 1: if there are two able bodied young men like the

1057
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: one we see on her front step. You don't have

1058
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 1: to flip over the lamps and tear the pictures down

1059
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: off the wall. Hey, let's see the inside of Nancy

1060
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: Guthrie's home from that Today Show clip. This is from

1061
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: this is when Savannah came home and they did a

1062
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: special segment. Okay, what is there to turn over? I

1063
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: don't get yea what anybody is talking about. There is

1064
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: a bedside table with the lamp. There's plenty of space

1065
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,439
Speaker 1: coming around. I think she sleeps on the left side

1066
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: of the bed because there is her little digit clock

1067
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: right there. So I don't get it. Fitzgibbons. Of course,

1068
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: the place is going to be immaculate. And by the way,

1069
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 1: she does have rugs on her floor, which is a

1070
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: whole other can of worms for our expert, our DNA

1071
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: expert to talk about. We were wondering last night if

1072
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: she had a rug in her entrance hall. We know

1073
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: she's got rugs. I'll circle back with Tammy Ballard on that.

1074
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: But I don't have to turn over the furniture to

1075
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: get a ninety four year old woman onto a walker

1076
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: and out of the house. I don't get it. But hey,

1077
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 1: my mind is open. What clue does this give me?

1078
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,919
Speaker 2: Fitzgibbons, I think, with this new information, with the home

1079
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 2: being immaculate, the door's propped open, you know here for me, obviously,

1080
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 2: it's not going to be difficult for two able bodied

1081
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 2: men to move an eighty four year old woman without

1082
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: knocking things over. But what it calls into question is

1083
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: the timeline that Sheriff Nanos published that gives these perpetrators

1084
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 2: roughly forty some odd minutes inside the house. So, you know,

1085
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 2: this new information makes me question are their problems with

1086
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 2: that timeline.

1087
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 1: We are also learning that the back door may have

1088
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 1: been propped open with flower pots. I don't know if

1089
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 1: that's credible, but we do know the door was propped

1090
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: open with something. If that's true. If that's true that

1091
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: flower pots were used, it tells me that was not

1092
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 1: the original plan that the kidnappers found. It was a

1093
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,440
Speaker 1: vail and they used it in order to prop the

1094
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: door open. Let's think about for instance, let's go to

1095
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: Scott ker on this forensics expert founding member FBI Cellular

1096
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: Analysis serve A team twelve years Norfolk, Virginia, PD Homicide

1097
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: now Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott thank you for being with us.

1098
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: Think about it. Compare Brian Coburger. He came with a

1099
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 1: kburd knife that he ordered on Amazon. He came dressed

1100
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 1: in clothes to conceal his identity. He was prepared. He

1101
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: did not need to use a flower pot to open

1102
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:44,959
Speaker 1: and prop open a door. So what does this tell

1103
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 1: you about the purpose if in fact that report is true.

1104
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 5: Well, I think there's several different reasons why they might

1105
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 5: prop open the door. One is they're trying to get

1106
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 5: Nancy out. We've just just discussed how hard it be

1107
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 5: to move an eighty four year old lady that can't

1108
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 5: walk on herself by herself. So having two gentlemen or

1109
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 5: two kidnappers grabbing her by the arms or the underneath

1110
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 5: her arms to try to get her out the door,

1111
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 5: it's much easier to prop open a door to get

1112
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 5: her out that way.

1113
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: Now I'm talking to you about the use of flower pots.

1114
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 5: I understand that. But if you are used, if you're

1115
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 5: doing that, you want to prop open the door with

1116
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 5: a whatever's nearby, which makes sense. You know, if it's

1117
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 5: a back door, you's got a lot of flower pots

1118
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 5: in the backyard there, just move one over to prop

1119
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 5: that door open, so you're not messing with the door

1120
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 5: as you're trying to get her out.

1121
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: Bob Krieger, what does it tell you if in fact

1122
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: this report is true that flower pots were used to

1123
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 1: prop the door open, it tells me the part wasn't

1124
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 1: prepared and didn't plan for it.

1125
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 12: I actually think the opposite that Nancy. I think they

1126
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 12: were planned for it, and propping it opens just a

1127
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 12: way of keeping it open. But I think if this

1128
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 12: is true, the initial plan was they were going to

1129
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 12: walk her out the back door, around the back gate

1130
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 12: that was propped open as well, and into a car.

1131
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 12: Something happened to change that plan, and that's probably why

1132
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 12: they went out the front door with the blood where

1133
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 12: you find blood. I know from my experience, whenever we

1134
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 12: would do a swap warm we'd go into a house,

1135
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 12: you always want to have a plan of egress. You

1136
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 12: want to know exactly how you're leaving that house. So

1137
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 12: they went in one door, you want to go out

1138
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 12: that same door, Get in, get out as quick as

1139
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 12: you can. Something probably happened they went to whatever their

1140
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 12: plan B was, and then they went out the front door.

1141
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 12: Probably that would be my estimation as to why that

1142
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:44,679
Speaker 12: back door was open and propped open like that.

1143
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 10: I wanted to come on and it's been two weeks

1144
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 10: since our mom was taken, and I just wanted to

1145
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 10: come on and say that we still have hope and

1146
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 10: we still believe to whoever has her or knows where

1147
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:24,600
Speaker 10: she is. But it's never too late, and you're not

1148
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 10: lost or alone, and it is never too late to

1149
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:35,799
Speaker 10: do the right thing. And we are here.

1150
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: Straight out to a special guest joining us tonight is

1151
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard, crimes and consultant specialist investigation and reconstruction and

1152
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: former DNA criminalist at the San Diego p D. Tammy Ballard,

1153
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us with all of the

1154
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: discussion of the immaculate nature of the inside of the home.

1155
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that make it that much more easy to get

1156
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: those electro static prints off the floor?

1157
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:15,719
Speaker 13: Well, Nancy, if the house had been completely locked down

1158
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 13: from the moment that this incident occurs, that is quite

1159
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 13: a good potential. However, this sounds like this whole entire

1160
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:31,759
Speaker 13: scene was family members coming in, law enforcement investigators coming

1161
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 13: into the home. So there's been a lot of traffic

1162
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 13: in that house, which would mean that you would have

1163
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 13: had to have the foresight to lock that scene down

1164
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 13: to be able to look for something like a footwear impression,

1165
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 13: and knowing that you wanted to collect something with an

1166
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:55,519
Speaker 13: electrostatic lift. So again, this would have needed to be

1167
01:10:55,600 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 13: something that was thought about from the beginning before everybody

1168
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 13: trafficked through this home.

1169
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend that Nano's directed everyone to be careful

1170
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 1: in the home and keep it pristain the fact that

1171
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 1: we're hearing it was quote immaculate. Wouldn't that help We

1172
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:17,639
Speaker 1: see the porch guy coming right up off that gravel walk,

1173
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 1: if that was on his shoes, Is there a chance

1174
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 1: of the static lift?

1175
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 14: Yes, there is a chance. So there's two sides to this. First,

1176
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 14: you have somebody who's coming in from the outside with

1177
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 14: potential dirt mud maybe on their shoes, so you're looking

1178
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 14: for something that they're leaving behind. But then you're also

1179
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:43,919
Speaker 14: looking for the voids what's missing, which is what actually

1180
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 14: what would be more inclined to do something with an

1181
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 14: electrostatic lift. So if he traffics something in where you

1182
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 14: have mud, dirt, if he steps through any blood that's

1183
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 14: on the interior of the residence, then you have those

1184
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 14: visible footwear impressions. But you also have the opposite of

1185
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 14: having to look for something that may not be visible

1186
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,640
Speaker 14: to the naked eye, which was the potential for that

1187
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 14: electrostatic lift to assist on that. And they do know

1188
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 14: that Pema County and the local law enforcement does have

1189
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,840
Speaker 14: that in their wheelhouse to potentially have approached that scene

1190
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 14: with that technology.

1191
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: Bob Krieger, if it was on their radar, you're the

1192
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 1: former Swatt commander. They're in Pma County. If they understood

1193
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:31,640
Speaker 1: the technology behind electrostatic lifts, certainly they would not have

1194
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:35,599
Speaker 1: destroyed the scene. Agree or disagree? And do you believe

1195
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: with your knowledge of Pema County Sheriff's Department, would they

1196
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 1: have preserved the flower pots we've been talking about, if

1197
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: in fact that's true, to try to get prince or

1198
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 1: DNA off of them.

1199
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 12: I would agree with that one key to us scene,

1200
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 12: especially once it starts going down the more suspicious line.

1201
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,600
Speaker 12: You want to preserve everything. So whether it's a homicide

1202
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 12: or a missing person or kidnapping, one way in, one

1203
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 12: way out, that's you. You set that up as the

1204
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 12: first step the unseen to preserve all that evidence. All

1205
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 12: of these things should have been done especially once it

1206
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:17,400
Speaker 12: hit the suspicious nature. If the flower pots were used

1207
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 12: to prop a door open, they absolutely better have been

1208
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 12: taken as evidence. They should not have been left behind.

1209
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 7: They should should be taken.

1210
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 12: They should be in need the evidence, uh location right

1211
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 12: now you'll be able to get any potential DNA off

1212
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 12: of that. Who knows how they might have just used

1213
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 12: their foot, but that's something that's vital to the investigation.

1214
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 12: You don't want to leave that behind.

1215
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,720
Speaker 1: Would A could have? Should a? Bob Kraiger, would a

1216
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 1: could have? Should have? I know they should have, but

1217
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: do you believe that they did.

1218
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:56,720
Speaker 12: I hope that they did not, not knowing they absolutely

1219
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 12: a rookie cop would have taken those that. That's what

1220
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 12: That's all I can say about it. And if they didn't,

1221
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,839
Speaker 12: that was a failure in the investigation as well.

1222
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard. If if and that's a big if they

1223
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 1: did take them, how hard would it be to get

1224
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: Prince off the flower pots? Maybe even DNA by the

1225
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 1: way he keeps putting that biteline into his mouth.

1226
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 14: Yeah, I would absolutely be looking for both so and

1227
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 14: I hope that they would do that as well. And

1228
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 14: you know, I've seen a lot of scenes and I've

1229
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:33,439
Speaker 14: seen a lot of investigations. Unfortunately, things do get left behind,

1230
01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 14: but this has been highlighted in even the media, as

1231
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 14: you know. So I these items could be collected at

1232
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:43,840
Speaker 14: any time at this point, so hopefully if they weren't

1233
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 14: initially collected, they're collected now and they should be examined.

1234
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 14: I did have people follow up after the last time

1235
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:53,559
Speaker 14: I was on your show. That's the best part about

1236
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 14: the forensics community. Everybody's like, hey, I did get DNA

1237
01:14:57,439 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 14: off of foliage. I did get DNA off of this,

1238
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,440
Speaker 14: which is great, So maybe you'll help solve this, Nancy.

1239
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:08,600
Speaker 1: I can only pray. You know, earlier we were discussing

1240
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 1: reverse engineering that we believe that we're being told the

1241
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: FBI is trying to reverse engineer the ransom notes tonight

1242
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:22,719
Speaker 1: as we're speaking, that is in the process. Scott Iiker

1243
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:27,280
Speaker 1: joining us, former member of the FBI's cast team. What

1244
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 1: goes into reverse engineering? What is that?

1245
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 5: So this would be handled by our behavioral analysis unit,

1246
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 5: and these are experts in the field of analyzing words

1247
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 5: and individual's behaviors. So they would take those notes whatever

1248
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 5: form they came in. They would examine the language, the tone,

1249
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 5: the words, they were used the handwriting if it came

1250
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:57,280
Speaker 5: in in that fashion. They would also be working with

1251
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 5: the family and with the investigators to try to figure out,

1252
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 5: all right, is this a legitimate ransom note? Is a fake?

1253
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:07,719
Speaker 5: We've ran intoo this before in this case, so they'd

1254
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:11,560
Speaker 5: be working very hard. So that's all that re engineering

1255
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 5: or reverse engineering the ransom note, trying to figure out

1256
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 5: what type of person and hopefully narrow down who the

1257
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 5: suspect is.

1258
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 4: Well.

1259
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:26,200
Speaker 1: Rivi has Gibbons Savannah stated that she believed two of

1260
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,559
Speaker 1: the ransom notes. Of the many notes that have come

1261
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:33,719
Speaker 1: in from vultures, she believes two of them were real.

1262
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:38,599
Speaker 1: So do you agree or disagree with iker? We understand

1263
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 1: the FBI is trying to reverse engineer them. Now what

1264
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 1: does that mean to you? Do you believe it?

1265
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1266
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 2: I think it adds credibility that at least two of

1267
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 2: the ransom notes are considered to be authentic or you know,

1268
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 2: there's a high confidence in their authenticity. And the question

1269
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 2: remains which of those notes, which media outlets were they

1270
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:06,759
Speaker 2: sent to or were they sent directly to the family.

1271
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 1: That we don't know.

1272
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:13,680
Speaker 2: But all of these things in totality, the fbis dissecting

1273
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 2: these leads credibility that.

1274
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 7: They do believe that these notes were auth.

1275
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 1: That time, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace are the FEDS

1276
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: closing in on block chain analysis of the bitcoin demand.

1277
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: That's right, the ransom notes, two of them, Savannah Guthrie

1278
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:46,559
Speaker 1: believes are quote real. Is that the highest and best

1279
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 1: evidence leading police to Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper? And tonight we

1280
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:59,200
Speaker 1: learn evidence in the garage was it totally missed by nanos?

1281
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 1: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I

1282
01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us. How much

1283
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 1: of a fight do you really think Nancy Guthrie could

1284
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:20,280
Speaker 1: put up?

1285
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 12: Not much of a fight at all, even if it

1286
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,200
Speaker 12: were a medical emercy at her part, you would see something,

1287
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 12: something would be not over probably. So yeah, that's very

1288
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 12: surprising to hear.

1289
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 2: That was avaculum tide.

1290
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 1: Not what you would expect in a kidnapping saying right,

1291
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:43,600
Speaker 1: we learn that too, of the multiple ransom notes and

1292
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 1: all of the bizarre communications may be real.

1293
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 10: The two notes that we received that we responded to,

1294
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 10: I tend to believe those are real.

1295
01:18:56,720 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 1: That from our friends at today on YouTube, Savannah tells

1296
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:07,280
Speaker 1: us that she believes two of the ransom notes were real. Now,

1297
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 1: what was in the ransom notes?

1298
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 15: We received an alleged ransom note that we forwarded on

1299
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 15: to the authorities, to the sheriff's department. The FBI called

1300
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 15: us a few hours later, wanted to had a bunch

1301
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 15: of questions.

1302
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 4: About that note.

1303
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 15: There are deadlines, I say plural deadlines in this letter,

1304
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 15: and one is looming right if this isn't indeed a

1305
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 15: legit letter. This man sent us an email saying that

1306
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:43,760
Speaker 15: he will reveal the name if he gets one bitcoin.

1307
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:47,959
Speaker 15: We checked the account all day. He did not receive anything.

1308
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 15: The account is bear.

1309
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: That's our friend, Harvey Levin ever at TMZ, if you

1310
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: will recall at least two notes. Ransom notes went directly

1311
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 1: to TMZ and two other local TV outlets straight out

1312
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:07,559
Speaker 1: to a special guest in joining us airy Redboard. He

1313
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 1: is the global head of policy and government affairs at

1314
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: TRM Labs. It's the blockchain intelligence company. Former Assistant US

1315
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 1: Attorney in DC, former senior advisor to the Undersecretary of

1316
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 1: Terrorism in Financial Intelligence. You can find him at trmlabs

1317
01:20:28,479 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 1: dot com. ARII thank you for being with us. Many

1318
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 1: people believe that bitcoin cannot be traced, and tonight we

1319
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:43,200
Speaker 1: are learning the FBI believes that's their best lead on

1320
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:47,719
Speaker 1: who took miss Guthrie. Now, I think it's the video

1321
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:51,360
Speaker 1: of the porch guy in the video of cars racing by,

1322
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:55,880
Speaker 1: which is also in your wheelhouse digital evidence. But let's

1323
01:20:55,920 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 1: address the ransom notes and the possibility says everybody went

1324
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:06,600
Speaker 1: radio silent on it of tracing this bitcoin request.

1325
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 16: No, it's a great question. Look, and anytime, first of all,

1326
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:12,600
Speaker 16: thank you for having me on Nancy. Look, anytime that

1327
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 16: there's a cryptocurrency address involved in a case, it's an

1328
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 16: immediate lead. And what most people don't understand about cryptocurrency

1329
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:24,679
Speaker 16: is every transaction occurs on a public blockchain, particularly Bitcoin,

1330
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:29,520
Speaker 16: which is which is public, meaning every transaction is traceable, trackable,

1331
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 16: and immutable. In other words, it's there forever. In other words,

1332
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:35,519
Speaker 16: crypto is the ultimate crime scene. You can go back

1333
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 16: in time. You know what transactions have occurred prior to

1334
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 16: this day involving this cryptocurrency address. Has this address sent funds,

1335
01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 16: has it received funds, and ultimately you track and trace

1336
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:50,760
Speaker 16: those funds across blockchains using tools like trm.

1337
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 1: Okay, you do know that you're speaking to a trial lawyer.

1338
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 1: You need to explain what you're saying when you're referring

1339
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:08,720
Speaker 1: to block chain analysis. Bitcoin transactions, if you look at

1340
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 1: them in the US anyway, they are recorded. It's almost

1341
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 1: like a Google doc where everybody's adding stuff in and

1342
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 1: they are in blocks. It looks like blocks where each

1343
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:26,439
Speaker 1: entry is made. Think of a spreadsheet and blocks of information. Okay,

1344
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:28,759
Speaker 1: we typically write in paragraphs. It looks like a block,

1345
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 1: and then you follow the chain. That's where they get

1346
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:38,479
Speaker 1: the phraseology block chain analysis. Now slow it down, airy

1347
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 1: and explain again very slowly, how the FEDS can do

1348
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:45,839
Speaker 1: this and this is what they're doing right now according

1349
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 1: to reports.

1350
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:49,640
Speaker 16: So what we do with TRM is we take that

1351
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 16: raw blockchain data that you're describing, that alpha numeric address

1352
01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:55,240
Speaker 16: day for example, that would be in a ransom note,

1353
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:57,640
Speaker 16: and we layer it with threat intelligence.

1354
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:01,679
Speaker 1: We have a team of threats right there. Right there.

1355
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 1: You may like the number at the bottom of your

1356
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:10,080
Speaker 1: check that it's every bitcoin account has an identifiable number

1357
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:12,720
Speaker 1: like we have a social security number. It's got an

1358
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 1: identifiable number like a checking account. Is that right? That

1359
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:16,920
Speaker 1: is correct?

1360
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 16: It's a string.

1361
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: Dummy down, man, dummy down for me. Now start over place.

1362
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 16: Absolutely.

1363
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1364
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:28,600
Speaker 16: So look, every cryptocurrency address is a unique string of

1365
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,800
Speaker 16: letters and numbers, and what we do is we associate

1366
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 16: those numbers with threat actors, think terrorist financiers, sanctioned ransomware actors,

1367
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 16: and that allows law enforcement to track and trace the

1368
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 16: flow of funds, to build investigation prosecutions, to ultimately seize

1369
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:47,800
Speaker 16: back those illicit proceeds.

1370
01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:52,160
Speaker 1: There has been a high level of success by the Feds,

1371
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:55,880
Speaker 1: by the FBI, by the IRS. You know, they're about

1372
01:23:55,880 --> 01:24:01,160
Speaker 1: three inches up everybody's tailpipe. On Bitcoin, every transaction is

1373
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:07,080
Speaker 1: recorded on a block chain. As Airy just said, Bitcoin

1374
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 1: wallets have an address and they can be watched by

1375
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:15,599
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Then the tricky time is when the purp

1376
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:18,040
Speaker 1: tries to cash it in. But right now we're not

1377
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:21,439
Speaker 1: at that point because I don't believe that ransom was

1378
01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 1: ever paid straight out to Chris mcdunna joining US veteran

1379
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: homicide detective, over three hundred homicides under his belt. He

1380
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 1: is the star of the Interview Room on YouTube, and

1381
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:40,639
Speaker 1: he also is the directory of the Cold Case Foundation. Chris,

1382
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You immediately flagged a

1383
01:24:43,479 --> 01:24:46,559
Speaker 1: lot of problems with the ransom note. That doesn't mean

1384
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: it's not legitimate.

1385
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:53,920
Speaker 8: Explain Well, the ransom notes in of itself gives us

1386
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:57,840
Speaker 8: a little insight into the behavioral aspects of what the

1387
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 8: suspect maybe you try to pull off here, and if

1388
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:03,720
Speaker 8: you think about it, just what Arry said there, you know,

1389
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:07,519
Speaker 8: to use bitcoin as a you know, a hook into

1390
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:08,080
Speaker 8: the victim.

1391
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:11,639
Speaker 17: Well, automatically, that's just like saying, hey, I'm over here,

1392
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:12,360
Speaker 17: come get me.

1393
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 8: Now.

1394
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:16,840
Speaker 17: There are some sophistications obviously that are out.

1395
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 4: Of my league that Eric could talk about.

1396
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 17: But it just doesn't make sense that immediately this bitcoin

1397
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 17: becomes you know, the talking point here for this case,

1398
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:31,680
Speaker 17: and we have that with that guy in Hawthorne, California

1399
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:35,719
Speaker 17: who was arrested, Derek Carilla. So it's a red flag

1400
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 17: in my opinion.

1401
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think them asking for bitcoin was the

1402
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 1: red flag. If you will recall, Savannah Guthrie took it

1403
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 1: seriously enough to say I will pay.

1404
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:54,439
Speaker 10: We received your message and we understand. We beg you

1405
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:57,800
Speaker 10: now to return our mother to us so that we

1406
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 10: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we

1407
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 10: will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and

1408
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 10: we will pay.

1409
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 1: Airy redboard joining us from t RM Labs. Airy. First

1410
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 1: of all, there was a delay in the demand for

1411
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: money bitcoin. That's a problem every kidnapping for ransom. You here,

1412
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 1: immediately give me money and you get proof of life

1413
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,200
Speaker 1: number one. There was a delay number two. From what

1414
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:34,040
Speaker 1: we understand, there was never proof of life number three

1415
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:37,559
Speaker 1: going through a news outlet as opposed to directly to

1416
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:43,439
Speaker 1: the family. That's also unusual, but not unheard of, that

1417
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:46,360
Speaker 1: you don't go directly to the family. Those three red

1418
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:49,760
Speaker 1: flags were a problem. That doesn't mean Savannah's wrong. I

1419
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:52,640
Speaker 1: think she, of all of us, knows what's going on

1420
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:57,479
Speaker 1: in the investigation. So tell me tonight, right now, aery,

1421
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 1: who would be on the team' ing the bitcoin address,

1422
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 1: in other words, tracing the ransomer. That's why I care

1423
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 1: about the bitcoin address, because that's going to lead me

1424
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 1: to the perp who's doing it. What kind of people

1425
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:15,479
Speaker 1: are on this team, this FBI Bitcoin team, it's a

1426
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:15,880
Speaker 1: great question.

1427
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,920
Speaker 16: It's called a Virtual Asset Unit within the FBI, and

1428
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 16: there's a team of crypto tracers and they're the best

1429
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 16: in the world. They've built investigations involving ransomware in North Korea,

1430
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:28,080
Speaker 16: hacks and terrorist financing, and what they're doing is they're

1431
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 16: using TRM to track and trace the flow of funds

1432
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:35,840
Speaker 16: to ultimately identify that individual. The problem is, and you

1433
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:38,680
Speaker 16: mentioned this, is that it really needs a payment. A

1434
01:27:38,680 --> 01:27:42,679
Speaker 16: transaction must occur in order to start that tracing and tracking,

1435
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:44,720
Speaker 16: because ultimately what you want at the end of the

1436
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:47,640
Speaker 16: day are those funds to be pashed out at a

1437
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 16: cryptocurrency exchange, because when they hit that exchange, that's when

1438
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:55,160
Speaker 16: you can get that underlying user information who owns that account,

1439
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:58,000
Speaker 16: because that exchange would have done the know your customer

1440
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 16: right When you open that account on a crypto change,

1441
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:03,120
Speaker 16: it's like opening a bank account, and that's when you

1442
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:06,680
Speaker 16: can really connect the dots. So crypto tracing is very powerful,

1443
01:28:06,840 --> 01:28:09,240
Speaker 16: but you have to have the movement of funds in

1444
01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:11,800
Speaker 16: order to really build an investigation.

1445
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:17,400
Speaker 1: Ary redboard. A lot of people that aren't in our

1446
01:28:17,439 --> 01:28:21,320
Speaker 1: business think that solving a case is like in a

1447
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 1: movie or on TV. It's all chasing people down a

1448
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 1: dark alley and pulling a gun and saying phrase. It's

1449
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 1: not like that. Right now, there is at least one

1450
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 1: team chasing down this bitcoin address. At least one team.

1451
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:42,839
Speaker 1: You've got another set of two teams, one in Quantico

1452
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 1: and one on the ground. They're in Tucson looking for

1453
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 1: digital evidence, which is another one of your specialties. There

1454
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: are multiple teams. Some are looking at the images, some

1455
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:58,799
Speaker 1: are trying to find a license plate, some are working

1456
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:02,880
Speaker 1: on fingerprints, are working on like the Cellular Analysis Survey

1457
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 1: team within the FBI, are working on any cell phone,

1458
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:15,519
Speaker 1: any nav system, any powered up iPad traveling in that

1459
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 1: neighborhood at that time, not just Jen thirty one, but

1460
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:24,439
Speaker 1: also all the way back to Jan eleven and Feb one.

1461
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 1: They're looking, They're looking, they're looking. But on this Savannah says,

1462
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:33,479
Speaker 1: she thinks the two ransom notes for real, except that

1463
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:38,120
Speaker 1: as a given, let's don't debate that anymore. How can

1464
01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 1: we connect the bitcoin account to the perp? Now you

1465
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:46,960
Speaker 1: mentioned people that would be on the bitcoin analysis team,

1466
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 1: the crypto chasers. What are they? Hackers? What did they

1467
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:54,800
Speaker 1: get their PhD at Harvard? And crypto chasing? Who are they?

1468
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:57,200
Speaker 1: What kind of people would be able to do this?

1469
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 16: These are FBI agents and this to across the federal government, IRS,

1470
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 16: Criminal Investigation, Homeland Security, DEA Secret Service. There are this

1471
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:10,200
Speaker 16: cadre of crypto tracers who have access to tools like

1472
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 16: TRM and the training to really do this work. So

1473
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:16,200
Speaker 16: they're in a tool, they go to an address, and

1474
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:19,080
Speaker 16: ultimately they're trying to understand what funds have gone into

1475
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 16: that address, where is that address sending funds? But the

1476
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:24,000
Speaker 16: real key, and I keep coming back to this, is

1477
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:27,560
Speaker 16: you have to have funds ultimately go to a cryptocurrency

1478
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:30,880
Speaker 16: exchange or some other off ramp because the reality is

1479
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:33,760
Speaker 16: most people can't buy stuff with crypto today, so you

1480
01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:36,840
Speaker 16: still need to cash out. And that cash out point

1481
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:39,680
Speaker 16: is the key the problem here, and you identified it

1482
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:41,720
Speaker 16: is I think there's an open question about whether a

1483
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 16: payment has ultimately been made and whether those funds are moving.

1484
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:48,720
Speaker 16: And without funds moving, the best crypto tracers in the

1485
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:51,840
Speaker 16: world that the FBI and beyond aren't really able to

1486
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:53,679
Speaker 16: do much with a cryptocurrency address.

1487
01:30:56,000 --> 01:31:01,080
Speaker 1: So do you have to input info to get bitcoin address?

1488
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 1: Like here's a simple Now a comparison, when you create

1489
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:11,160
Speaker 1: an email, you have to give a little information to

1490
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: get a new email, like your old email or your

1491
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:17,360
Speaker 1: phone or your something. So what information do you have

1492
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:20,960
Speaker 1: to input in order to get that bitcoin account? If any?

1493
01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:23,759
Speaker 16: You don't And the reason for that is Bitcoin, unlike

1494
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:28,559
Speaker 16: you're by or unlike other financial institutions, is decentralized. But

1495
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 16: what is centralized are those cryptocurrency exchanges. So if you

1496
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:35,599
Speaker 16: set up an account at a cryptocurrency exchange, that's when

1497
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:39,879
Speaker 16: you have to provide that underlying name, address, social security number, email.

1498
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:43,360
Speaker 16: And that's when that's when law enforcement really gets their

1499
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:46,200
Speaker 16: leads from a crypto address, when those funds go to

1500
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 16: a cryptocurrency exchange, and that's when you send your subpoena

1501
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 16: to that exchange asking for that underlying user information and

1502
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 16: did they use a Gmail account, for example to open

1503
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:57,320
Speaker 16: up that account? Then all of a sudden, you can

1504
01:31:57,320 --> 01:31:59,760
Speaker 16: send a subpoena or a search warrant to Google to

1505
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 16: get at those Gmail records. Do you have a cell

1506
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:05,439
Speaker 16: phone provider that was used here? Can you triangulate location

1507
01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:09,200
Speaker 16: based on cell tower data? So a bitcoin address when

1508
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:12,120
Speaker 16: the funds are ultimately moving, is a great investigative lead.

1509
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 16: But that's when law enforcement uses all those other tools

1510
01:32:15,160 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 16: that they have in their toolbox.

1511
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:21,200
Speaker 1: What I was saying earlier, Ariy, is that people expect

1512
01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 1: this high action scenario to play out. It's not always

1513
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 1: like that. I can remember so many nights sitting in

1514
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:31,720
Speaker 1: the floor of my office, first as a fed and

1515
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,600
Speaker 1: then as a felony prosecutor at Intercity Atlanta, with stacks

1516
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:40,960
Speaker 1: and stacks of papers in front of me, just stacks

1517
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:47,599
Speaker 1: and stacks, wading through them, marshaling the evidence, much as

1518
01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 1: we do tonight. So it's not always a high speed

1519
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:56,840
Speaker 1: chase with cars turning over. It's guys and women coming

1520
01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:01,240
Speaker 1: into the office seven am, drinking their coffee and then

1521
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:07,559
Speaker 1: diving in. So when someone is analyzing this trail, one

1522
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:10,880
Speaker 1: of the hottest trails we've got in finding Nancy Guthrie,

1523
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:12,960
Speaker 1: what do they do? Is it all on computer? Are

1524
01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:15,080
Speaker 1: they looking at documents? Are they all together in a

1525
01:33:15,120 --> 01:33:18,080
Speaker 1: conference room? What is it? What does it look like?

1526
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:21,679
Speaker 16: Absolutely, you essentially have an investigator, likely in an office,

1527
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 16: in front of a laptop or a computer, who's in

1528
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:27,400
Speaker 16: a tool like TRM. You know, it's an application that

1529
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:31,160
Speaker 16: actually shows funds moving on a blockchain. There's a user

1530
01:33:31,200 --> 01:33:35,240
Speaker 16: interface that creates graphs and you're saying to yourself, all right,

1531
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 16: I'm looking at that initial address that's in the ransom note,

1532
01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:41,880
Speaker 16: where are funds going? And then you start tracing and

1533
01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:44,840
Speaker 16: you have these really cool graphs that are following the

1534
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:48,360
Speaker 16: money in real time. The problem is you need that

1535
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 16: initial payment in order to start that activity right and

1536
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:54,160
Speaker 16: open question about whether or not we have that today.

1537
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:58,400
Speaker 16: So that crypto address is a very very powerful investigative lead,

1538
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 16: but again, you need a payment to be made one

1539
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:01,400
Speaker 16: way or another.

1540
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:05,640
Speaker 1: To Joseph Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University.

1541
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:08,840
Speaker 1: He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

1542
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:12,720
Speaker 1: and he is a star of a hit podcast, Bodybags.

1543
01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:15,840
Speaker 1: At Joseph Scott Morgan for my Purposes. He is a

1544
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:20,679
Speaker 1: death investigator with over ten thousand death scenes under his belt.

1545
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 1: I don't believe any ransom was ever paid, even though

1546
01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:28,960
Speaker 1: Savannah believes, and I believe her that two of those

1547
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 1: ransom notes were from people connected to the kidnapping of

1548
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie, because they never offered proof of life.

1549
01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:45,040
Speaker 9: Never Okay, well yeah they didn't. And to that point,

1550
01:34:45,479 --> 01:34:47,559
Speaker 9: we have to we have to begin to think about

1551
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 9: what's her status at this point in time. And you

1552
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:53,000
Speaker 9: know that's a big that's a big piece to this,

1553
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:56,240
Speaker 9: isn't it, Nancy, Because suddenly we have all of the

1554
01:34:56,280 --> 01:34:59,439
Speaker 9: static and all of this chatter, and then it just

1555
01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:03,160
Speaker 9: drops off into nothingness. So I wonder if these individuals

1556
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 9: that have perpetrated this crime are left, you know, kind

1557
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 9: of scratching their head, thinking, oh, what in the world

1558
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:13,200
Speaker 9: do we do at this point in time, because, as

1559
01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:18,320
Speaker 9: you mentioned, my background is as a death investigator, and

1560
01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:20,639
Speaker 9: right now I don't have a lot of hope at

1561
01:35:20,640 --> 01:35:25,120
Speaker 9: this point in Tom Nancy, particularly considering you know how

1562
01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:28,200
Speaker 9: much Tom has gone by, and in addition to that,

1563
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 9: what type of physical help she was in.

1564
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:36,799
Speaker 1: Right I'm referring, I'm strictly focusing on solving this case.

1565
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:41,280
Speaker 1: I'm not apining as to whether Missus Guthrie has passed on.

1566
01:35:42,120 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the problem with the ransom note. The

1567
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:48,519
Speaker 1: problem is it went to a news outlet, not the family.

1568
01:35:48,760 --> 01:35:51,360
Speaker 1: It was not immediate as you would expect in a

1569
01:35:51,439 --> 01:35:53,080
Speaker 1: ransom note. They want their money, and they want the

1570
01:35:53,080 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 1: whole thing over. Then they want to fly to France

1571
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:59,120
Speaker 1: where they can hide, and they never offer proof of life.

1572
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:02,720
Speaker 1: Those or many of the problems. Guys, We've heard a

1573
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:05,400
Speaker 1: lot in the last thirty six hours about the home

1574
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 1: being quote immaculate. What would you expect from missus Guthrie.

1575
01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:13,360
Speaker 1: Of course, the home was immaculate, I think what they're

1576
01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:15,600
Speaker 1: trying to say is what she wasn't forced out of

1577
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:20,040
Speaker 1: the home. Well, she was. Savannah says that her mother

1578
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:24,400
Speaker 1: was taken from her bed in her pajamas with no shoes,

1579
01:36:24,439 --> 01:36:29,160
Speaker 1: and we see Missus Guthrie's blood on the front porch,

1580
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 1: so it's not immaculate. That's video of the inside of

1581
01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:37,280
Speaker 1: Missus Guthrie's home from our friends at Today on YouTube

1582
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 1: on one of Savannah's visits, I want you to look

1583
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:44,360
Speaker 1: at a photo, a photo of the front of Missus

1584
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:49,200
Speaker 1: Guthrie's home. Now, in this photo it became relevant because

1585
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:53,000
Speaker 1: a state worker had been at the home after she

1586
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:55,840
Speaker 1: went missing and put her card up there. But look

1587
01:36:56,120 --> 01:37:01,320
Speaker 1: at the inside of the home. There you see, and

1588
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 1: it is immaculate. Nothing was turned over, there was no

1589
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:11,120
Speaker 1: struggle there, and importantly, Joe Scott, no rug. There are

1590
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:14,960
Speaker 1: also reports that there was blood on the interior of

1591
01:37:15,040 --> 01:37:18,880
Speaker 1: the door. But what do you make of what we're seeing.

1592
01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:23,720
Speaker 1: There's no sign of struggle. What can you do with this,

1593
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:26,000
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. By the way, that's when Crystal m a

1594
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:29,800
Speaker 1: R eighty seven, Crystal mar eighty seven on X go ahead,

1595
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:30,320
Speaker 1: Joe Scott.

1596
01:37:31,200 --> 01:37:33,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, So when you're taking a look at that image,

1597
01:37:33,240 --> 01:37:34,960
Speaker 9: you know, one of the things that really stands out

1598
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:38,320
Speaker 9: is that little table that's in the background, and there

1599
01:37:38,360 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 9: is that lamp that's precariously positioned there when you think

1600
01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:47,439
Speaker 9: about that, and interestingly enough, that lamp looks very similar

1601
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:49,320
Speaker 9: to the one that we saw just a moment ago

1602
01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:53,599
Speaker 9: in her bedroom. She was making her bed. At any rate,

1603
01:37:54,320 --> 01:37:57,240
Speaker 9: when when we work a case, Nancy, one of you know,

1604
01:37:57,280 --> 01:38:00,000
Speaker 9: the classic statement we see, we say is no sign

1605
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 9: a force entry, no signs of struggle. If there was

1606
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:06,680
Speaker 9: in fact a struggle, could it have potentially involved that

1607
01:38:06,760 --> 01:38:09,760
Speaker 9: little table. Could they have just swept right past it

1608
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:12,480
Speaker 9: and it not be touched. Well, yeah, that's the possibility.

1609
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:15,120
Speaker 9: But just from that view alone, and again this is

1610
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:18,320
Speaker 9: one little sliver, we're not seeing anything there that would

1611
01:38:18,320 --> 01:38:21,360
Speaker 9: be indicative of a struggle where somebody is rolling around

1612
01:38:21,360 --> 01:38:26,280
Speaker 9: the ground. Where we have broken furniture, toppled fixtures, that

1613
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:29,839
Speaker 9: sort of thing, that's nothing like you would normally expect

1614
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:33,000
Speaker 9: to see. And here's the other bit to this you

1615
01:38:33,040 --> 01:38:35,880
Speaker 9: had mentioned, and we talked about this extensively the other day.

1616
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:40,720
Speaker 9: There appears to be no internal rug. From that little perspective,

1617
01:38:40,760 --> 01:38:43,120
Speaker 9: there I'm not saying that it couldn't be out of view,

1618
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:47,120
Speaker 9: but there's no runner visible, which you see many times

1619
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:50,040
Speaker 9: at front doors on the interior as opposed the exterior.

1620
01:38:51,080 --> 01:38:53,680
Speaker 9: So yeah, there wouldn't have been anything to have collected

1621
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:57,519
Speaker 9: relative to a rug to bring in to do analysis. There. Again,

1622
01:38:57,760 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 9: we go back to the welcome math that's in front

1623
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:03,200
Speaker 9: the door, which of course was not collected initially.

1624
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:06,400
Speaker 1: And we've got some close ups too on the debris

1625
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:11,679
Speaker 1: of the upper right hand side that one. Okay, there's

1626
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:14,080
Speaker 1: your shot. What about it, Joe Scott.

1627
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:16,680
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm looking at this, Nancy. And you know the

1628
01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 9: thing about blood is everybody thinks that they can spot it.

1629
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 9: Guess what you can't, And particularly when you have a

1630
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:25,599
Speaker 9: mat like this that's black. Now, if the thing was

1631
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:30,360
Speaker 9: maybe beige or white or something like that, maybe it pop. Okay,

1632
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:33,439
Speaker 9: And remember it seems we don't call blood blood, we

1633
01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:35,920
Speaker 9: say a bloodlocked substance. We have to test that to

1634
01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:38,719
Speaker 9: make sure it's blood. But guess what in this case,

1635
01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:42,120
Speaker 9: with that deposition there, we already know something here. They

1636
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:44,679
Speaker 9: have tested that blood that does come back as her blood.

1637
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:47,920
Speaker 9: I don't know what's on that carpet. Also, there could

1638
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:50,800
Speaker 9: be footprints on that carpet as well that you would

1639
01:39:50,800 --> 01:39:54,439
Speaker 9: have to use alternative lighting in order to essentially raise

1640
01:39:55,000 --> 01:39:59,680
Speaker 9: So again we've talked about maybe contact with a shoeprint

1641
01:40:00,160 --> 01:40:03,679
Speaker 9: to the blood, maybe it was transferred over onto the mat,

1642
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:07,320
Speaker 9: but this thing's not collected. The big question that I

1643
01:40:07,320 --> 01:40:10,240
Speaker 9: oppose this to you, Nancy, how in the hell are

1644
01:40:10,240 --> 01:40:12,640
Speaker 9: you going to analyze something if you don't collect it

1645
01:40:12,720 --> 01:40:14,760
Speaker 9: and take it back to be analyzed.

1646
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:18,599
Speaker 1: Good point, And I want to show you a photo

1647
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:21,479
Speaker 1: we obtain at the get Go. It's off the front

1648
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:25,200
Speaker 1: porch with a tent around it. It's in broad daylight.

1649
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:29,720
Speaker 1: This shot from our friend Matt Finn FNC on X.

1650
01:40:30,240 --> 01:40:33,880
Speaker 1: If you will recall when this first occurred, Joe Scott Morgan,

1651
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:37,639
Speaker 1: I suggested to you that the tent could be there

1652
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:42,080
Speaker 1: to get to use als alternative light source. Could you,

1653
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:45,440
Speaker 1: in a nutshell explain what that means?

1654
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 9: Well, light works at various different spectrums, and so you

1655
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:54,640
Speaker 9: need to have a controlled environment when you see the

1656
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:57,720
Speaker 9: tent essentially there, If that in fact is what they

1657
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:00,760
Speaker 9: were using it for, you want to be able to

1658
01:41:00,760 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 9: shut down and control the amount of light that's coming

1659
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:05,240
Speaker 9: in because you're going to be using what's referred to

1660
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:09,640
Speaker 9: as alternative light sources. This can be things like infrared.

1661
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:13,120
Speaker 9: There's certainly other things that we apply it scenes and

1662
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:15,560
Speaker 9: what you're trying to pick up on our little nuances

1663
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:20,000
Speaker 9: that are going to illumin s through this varied light

1664
01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 9: spectrum that we can actually document photographically, and we do

1665
01:41:23,400 --> 01:41:27,320
Speaker 9: it in real time. And here's the real crux of this.

1666
01:41:27,920 --> 01:41:31,040
Speaker 9: We have to do it. We have to do it

1667
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:34,880
Speaker 9: in an environment where the evidence is collected in what's

1668
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:37,840
Speaker 9: referred to as insight too. That means in place, so

1669
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:41,439
Speaker 9: it's a reference point. If you take a shot and

1670
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:44,719
Speaker 9: a reference point relative to that door. In the event

1671
01:41:44,760 --> 01:41:47,479
Speaker 9: that this scene does go to jail, does go to jury,

1672
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:50,559
Speaker 9: they have that point of context so that they can

1673
01:41:50,840 --> 01:41:53,680
Speaker 9: absolutely understand it and contextualize it.

1674
01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:58,360
Speaker 1: This shot from our friend Matt sen FNC on X

1675
01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:02,640
Speaker 1: speaking on and by the way, it may be of

1676
01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:05,439
Speaker 1: no probit to value at this juncture, but you're right

1677
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:10,200
Speaker 1: that doormat, which was probably teeming with forensic evenance, was

1678
01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:13,760
Speaker 1: not collected until it was too late and all the

1679
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:17,559
Speaker 1: evidence likely destroyed. Let me go back to that photo

1680
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 1: on the inside of Miscuthriy's foyer, because on it, and

1681
01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:25,719
Speaker 1: I keep getting questions about this. You see a business

1682
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 1: card once and for all, Dave mac joining US Crime

1683
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:32,320
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter. What is the business card?

1684
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:37,240
Speaker 3: It is an Adult Protective Services card belonging to an

1685
01:42:37,280 --> 01:42:40,639
Speaker 3: advanced investigator by the name of Debra M.

1686
01:42:40,800 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 4: Her name is written on the card.

1687
01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:46,800
Speaker 3: An advanced investigator with Adult Protective Services in Tucson would

1688
01:42:46,840 --> 01:42:51,280
Speaker 3: be a professional field investigator employed by the Arizona Department

1689
01:42:51,280 --> 01:42:55,480
Speaker 3: of Economic Securities APS unit, whose job is to investigate

1690
01:42:55,479 --> 01:43:00,360
Speaker 3: reports of abuse, neglect, exploitation, or self neglect. And in

1691
01:43:00,400 --> 01:43:06,320
Speaker 3: this case, when Nancy Guthrie was reported missing, APS got involved,

1692
01:43:06,479 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 3: and that's why the card was placed in the door.

1693
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:11,960
Speaker 3: There was nobody home at the time that Deborah placed

1694
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:13,560
Speaker 3: the card in the door.

1695
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:19,360
Speaker 1: So no mystery. It's all been determined that she was

1696
01:43:19,400 --> 01:43:23,800
Speaker 1: brought out after Missus Guthrie went missing, and that's it.

1697
01:43:24,040 --> 01:43:28,920
Speaker 1: There was no elder abuse going on. Deborah M was

1698
01:43:28,960 --> 01:43:32,920
Speaker 1: not her regular quote case worker, nothing of that sort.

1699
01:43:33,160 --> 01:43:34,000
Speaker 1: Is that correct?

1700
01:43:34,439 --> 01:43:35,759
Speaker 4: Absolutely correct?

1701
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:36,400
Speaker 1: You're sure?

1702
01:43:36,800 --> 01:43:37,040
Speaker 4: Yep?

1703
01:43:37,800 --> 01:43:43,120
Speaker 1: Okay, moving forward, I want to talk about evidence missed

1704
01:43:43,360 --> 01:43:47,479
Speaker 1: within Nancy Guthrie's garage. Let's take a look at her

1705
01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:51,880
Speaker 1: home that includes a shot of her garage. We are

1706
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:57,000
Speaker 1: learning that Nancy Guthrie rarely used the front door, and

1707
01:43:57,080 --> 01:44:00,880
Speaker 1: I assume this extends to the back door, which is

1708
01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:04,720
Speaker 1: even harder to get to this video guys from our

1709
01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:10,880
Speaker 1: friends at twelve News, she typically used the garage door.

1710
01:44:11,680 --> 01:44:15,680
Speaker 1: Now Chris McDonald joining US director COLCASESE Foundation, former homicide

1711
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:21,080
Speaker 1: detective Chris My parents did the same exact thing that

1712
01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:25,320
Speaker 1: pull up, do the garage door and go in that way.

1713
01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:30,559
Speaker 1: It's just easier. It's just easier. And they believed the

1714
01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:33,920
Speaker 1: garage door gave them security, which I agree with them,

1715
01:44:34,400 --> 01:44:37,600
Speaker 1: and would very often leave the door from the garage

1716
01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:40,800
Speaker 1: into the laundry room, which went into the kitchen. They'd

1717
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:45,320
Speaker 1: leave that unlocked because the garage door protected them. You see.

1718
01:44:45,479 --> 01:44:49,240
Speaker 1: So that pull up, open the garage door with the clicker,

1719
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:52,920
Speaker 1: go in to me forever to make them do this,

1720
01:44:53,200 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 1: shut the garage door, and then get out and go

1721
01:44:56,240 --> 01:45:00,559
Speaker 1: in to make sure nobody would come in there. Said

1722
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:03,560
Speaker 1: that leave that door unlocked going into the kitchen the

1723
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:10,519
Speaker 1: laundry room. That we understand is MS Guthrie's practice. But

1724
01:45:11,520 --> 01:45:15,240
Speaker 1: we are now understanding that evidence may have been missed

1725
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:19,639
Speaker 1: in the garage and now it's too late. What should

1726
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:22,120
Speaker 1: have been done in the garage? Chris? And what do

1727
01:45:22,200 --> 01:45:23,040
Speaker 1: you think about this?

1728
01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:28,599
Speaker 17: So right there we learn a little bit about what

1729
01:45:28,640 --> 01:45:32,519
Speaker 17: we would call pattern of life in the victimology aspect

1730
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 17: of this thing. And that just tells us, okay, Missus Guthrie,

1731
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 17: this is how she does things. It's not unusual for

1732
01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:48,519
Speaker 17: homes around anywhere to have the interior garage doores not locked. Okay,

1733
01:45:48,520 --> 01:45:51,080
Speaker 17: So it's a good idea for your audience. Always locked

1734
01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:55,519
Speaker 17: those interior garage doores that set. The investigators should have

1735
01:45:55,640 --> 01:45:59,160
Speaker 17: processed that entire garage almost immediately.

1736
01:45:59,479 --> 01:45:59,960
Speaker 1: They should have.

1737
01:46:00,479 --> 01:46:03,160
Speaker 17: They did tow her car out of there, but they

1738
01:46:03,240 --> 01:46:05,519
Speaker 17: really should have, you know, give it one hundred percent.

1739
01:46:06,400 --> 01:46:10,479
Speaker 17: You know, alternate light sources, you know, finding footprints, throwing

1740
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:15,080
Speaker 17: powder on there, Nancy. On that one helicopter shot over

1741
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:17,559
Speaker 17: the house that you showed just a couple of minutes ago,

1742
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:24,160
Speaker 17: I noticed the gate appears to be opened. And is

1743
01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:30,000
Speaker 17: this the prompt open gate? Right there? Is this the

1744
01:46:30,080 --> 01:46:35,120
Speaker 17: prompt open gate that Savannah was talking about, you know,

1745
01:46:35,200 --> 01:46:38,080
Speaker 17: because she said there were three doors that were propped open,

1746
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:42,599
Speaker 17: two underneath that patio and then the gate itself show

1747
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:46,320
Speaker 17: that should have been a red flag also for the investigators.

1748
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:48,800
Speaker 1: The video, the aerial video we're showing you is from

1749
01:46:48,840 --> 01:46:50,600
Speaker 1: our friends at twelve News. Take a listen to what

1750
01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:51,320
Speaker 1: Savannah said.

1751
01:46:51,680 --> 01:46:54,800
Speaker 10: I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie

1752
01:46:54,840 --> 01:46:58,479
Speaker 10: and Tommy were saying, this isn't. This isn't that case

1753
01:46:58,520 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 10: that you are used to where someone wanders off. She

1754
01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:07,200
Speaker 10: can't wander off my mom her she was in tremendous pain.

1755
01:47:07,760 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 10: Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to.

1756
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:14,600
Speaker 10: On a good day she could walk down to the

1757
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:16,680
Speaker 10: mailbox and get the mail, but most days not.

1758
01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:18,439
Speaker 1: So there was no.

1759
01:47:18,479 --> 01:47:24,080
Speaker 10: Wander off, and the doors were opt omen and there

1760
01:47:24,160 --> 01:47:28,320
Speaker 10: was split on the front doors, and the ring camera

1761
01:47:28,400 --> 01:47:32,799
Speaker 10: had been yanked off, and so we were saying, this.

1762
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:34,639
Speaker 1: Is do something.

1763
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:40,920
Speaker 10: This is not okay, this isn't. Something is very wrong here.

1764
01:47:41,080 --> 01:47:44,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, from our friends at today YouTube. You're right. She

1765
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:47,599
Speaker 1: says the doors were propped open. I didn't hear anything

1766
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:52,400
Speaker 1: about a gate or three door slash gates. I heard doors,

1767
01:47:53,160 --> 01:47:58,720
Speaker 1: and we know the back door was propped open, reportedly

1768
01:47:58,760 --> 01:48:01,439
Speaker 1: with flower pots. Don't know if that's true. Why do

1769
01:48:01,520 --> 01:48:06,240
Speaker 1: I care? It could mean something probative wise, Why were

1770
01:48:06,280 --> 01:48:10,160
Speaker 1: they used? Were they touched with a bare fingertip? Is

1771
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:15,960
Speaker 1: their DNA on them? That said? You're right? Doors propped open.

1772
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:19,040
Speaker 1: But I want to talk to you about the garage door.

1773
01:48:20,040 --> 01:48:23,439
Speaker 1: The garage door we know for a fact closed Jan

1774
01:48:23,600 --> 01:48:30,240
Speaker 1: thirty one. What time Nancy arrived home nine forty eight pm?

1775
01:48:30,400 --> 01:48:37,040
Speaker 1: The garage door closed at nine five zero, nine fifty.

1776
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:42,920
Speaker 1: There was a blue Subaru that remained part in her garage.

1777
01:48:43,560 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 1: It was towed away for analysis. So at least they

1778
01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:53,759
Speaker 1: pulled out the subaru. So straight out to airy redboard

1779
01:48:53,840 --> 01:48:59,280
Speaker 1: joining us. What should have been done forensically in the garage?

1780
01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:05,519
Speaker 16: Look, you want to ultimately take over that crime scene entirely.

1781
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:08,080
Speaker 16: You want to block it off. You don't want anyone

1782
01:49:08,120 --> 01:49:11,120
Speaker 16: in and out, and you want to do absolutely everything

1783
01:49:11,160 --> 01:49:13,799
Speaker 16: you can to gather every piece of evidence as quickly

1784
01:49:13,840 --> 01:49:15,519
Speaker 16: as possible, which is really the key here.

1785
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 1: What about it, Joe Scott? I know you agree with

1786
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:21,719
Speaker 1: what Aerry just said what more should have been done?

1787
01:49:22,400 --> 01:49:24,559
Speaker 1: And I assume you agree with me that now it's

1788
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:25,920
Speaker 1: too late to get anything.

1789
01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:31,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, that train left the station a long long time ago. Nancy,

1790
01:49:32,280 --> 01:49:34,439
Speaker 9: you know anything that you would find right now at

1791
01:49:34,439 --> 01:49:38,120
Speaker 9: this point in, Tom, you would have great questions that

1792
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:42,320
Speaker 9: would be asked about the veracity of the of the

1793
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:45,799
Speaker 9: of the evidence, whether or not it was still valid

1794
01:49:46,479 --> 01:49:49,720
Speaker 9: load these many weeks. So yeah, I mean, listen, I

1795
01:49:49,760 --> 01:49:53,479
Speaker 9: don't care what level you're at as an investigator. There

1796
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:55,960
Speaker 9: are just some basic tenets that you hold to, and

1797
01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:59,519
Speaker 9: that the number one thing is security of the scene.

1798
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:02,479
Speaker 9: Is not just the scene, it's that evidence that is

1799
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:06,040
Speaker 9: contained therein those things that are unseen and unseen. We

1800
01:50:06,120 --> 01:50:09,439
Speaker 9: cannot go out contrary to what the public things, we

1801
01:50:09,479 --> 01:50:14,040
Speaker 9: cannot go out to a scene and microscopically observe it

1802
01:50:14,360 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 9: and pick up on everything there. It takes time because

1803
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:20,240
Speaker 9: there are things that have to be collected and then

1804
01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:23,000
Speaker 9: brought in and analyzed in a controlled environment.

1805
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:25,840
Speaker 1: Well, the reality is, Joe Scott, and you pointed it out.

1806
01:50:26,080 --> 01:50:29,120
Speaker 1: If the front door mat with blood all around, it

1807
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,280
Speaker 1: wasn't taken. I don't have a lot of hope for

1808
01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:37,160
Speaker 1: evidence retained from the garage. At least they got the

1809
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:38,920
Speaker 1: subaru and a lot of people and I want to

1810
01:50:38,960 --> 01:50:42,760
Speaker 1: put this to bed, are stating did she ever make

1811
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:46,439
Speaker 1: it home? Did she really make it home? Yes, she

1812
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:50,640
Speaker 1: made it home. You've got the garage door opening and closing.

1813
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:57,519
Speaker 1: You have her pacemaker connected to her Bluetooth. It then

1814
01:50:57,800 --> 01:51:04,599
Speaker 1: spikes around two AM and then disconnects. So that would

1815
01:51:04,680 --> 01:51:07,960
Speaker 1: have to be a hell of a conspiracy to cover

1816
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:11,960
Speaker 1: all those tracks, to fake the garage door opening and closing,

1817
01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:16,320
Speaker 1: to fake her pacemaker connecting to her WiFi her Bluetooth

1818
01:51:16,360 --> 01:51:21,280
Speaker 1: at home, and then severing that connection around two a m.

1819
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:28,400
Speaker 1: So I just don't see a conspiracy involving her never

1820
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:33,160
Speaker 1: making at home. Back out to you, Dave Mack, it's

1821
01:51:33,240 --> 01:51:38,920
Speaker 1: my understanding that the guy leading this has never handled

1822
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:41,680
Speaker 1: a homicide.

1823
01:51:42,360 --> 01:51:43,920
Speaker 4: You're correct, Nancy.

1824
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:45,920
Speaker 3: It's one of them that has come up during the

1825
01:51:45,920 --> 01:51:49,519
Speaker 3: course of this investigation that the lead detective on this

1826
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:54,040
Speaker 3: case has never or the person heading up this investigation

1827
01:51:54,280 --> 01:51:59,240
Speaker 3: has not done a homicide investigation. The most experienced person

1828
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:02,559
Speaker 3: deal with this in terms of detectives has two years

1829
01:52:02,560 --> 01:52:06,200
Speaker 3: of experience at the Pima County Sheriff's Department. Now, thankfully

1830
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:08,719
Speaker 3: the FBI is involved, but for the first days, Nancy,

1831
01:52:08,760 --> 01:52:12,800
Speaker 3: every decision being made by a detective with less than

1832
01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:13,840
Speaker 3: two years experience.

1833
01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:20,599
Speaker 1: Amidst claims that Nanas's team did not process the garage

1834
01:52:20,600 --> 01:52:25,800
Speaker 1: tonight at least, we know that the FEDS are tracking

1835
01:52:26,240 --> 01:52:30,519
Speaker 1: that ransom note bitcoin account and they are calling every

1836
01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:38,200
Speaker 1: bit of information. An entire team of bitcoin chasers tracers

1837
01:52:38,840 --> 01:52:42,360
Speaker 1: are on it as we go to air. If you

1838
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:45,880
Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about the disappearance of

1839
01:52:45,960 --> 01:52:49,679
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free eight hundred two two

1840
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:54,280
Speaker 1: five five three two four. That's eight hundred calls FBI,

1841
01:52:54,920 --> 01:52:57,680
Speaker 1: or if you wish to remain anonymous, five to two

1842
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:02,519
Speaker 1: zero eight eight to two seven four six three. There

1843
01:53:02,600 --> 01:53:06,519
Speaker 1: is a one point two plus million dollar reward for

1844
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:11,719
Speaker 1: information leading to the whereabouts of missus Guthrie. No arrest,

1845
01:53:12,000 --> 01:53:15,880
Speaker 1: much less a conviction is required for you to get

1846
01:53:16,200 --> 01:53:20,759
Speaker 1: the reward. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. Good night friend,