Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky.
Speaker 1: We begin the interview series for Unobscured Season four with
Speaker 1: Dr Douglas Smith. Dr Smith is the author of Rasputin, Faith, Power,
Speaker 1: and the Twilight of the Romanovs, just one of six
Speaker 1: books he has published on Russia. Douglas is an award
Speaker 1: winning historian and his writing has been published into more
Speaker 1: than a dozen languages. Anyone who has researched the life
Speaker 1: of Grigory Rasputin knows just how difficult it can be
Speaker 1: to separate the man from the myth. As you'll know
Speaker 1: well from this season of Unobscured, Dr Smith's work has
Speaker 1: become an essential guide to that difficult task. His original
Speaker 1: research set a new standard of understanding the Siberian mystic,
Speaker 1: from his early life to the details of his murder
Speaker 1: and the importance of his legacy. Both the man and
Speaker 1: the myth matter, and there's no one better for walking
Speaker 1: through the details than Douglas Smith. Since his book was published,
Speaker 1: its reach has grown year by year, and so has
Speaker 1: the respect he earns for experts and curious readers alike.
Speaker 1: Were delighted to have his perspective on Unobscured researcher Sam
Speaker 1: Alberty and writer Carl Nellis talked to Douglas about the
Speaker 1: revelations that came from taking a new look at Rasputin.
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to share this conversation with all of you.
Speaker 1: This is the Unobscured Interview series for season four. I'm
Speaker 1: Aaron Manky for Unobscured Podcast. I'm Carl Nellis, and I'm
Speaker 1: here with my co producer Sam Alberty. Today we're talking
Speaker 1: with Dr Douglas Smith, an award winning historian and translator.
Speaker 1: Douglas Smith is the author of six books on Russia.
Speaker 1: It's a privilege to have him join us. Uh. Douglas,
Speaker 1: welcome to an Obscured Podcast. Thanks for having me. Um
Speaker 1: So your book on Rasputin, Rasputin, Faith, Power and the
Speaker 1: Twilight of the Romanovs. It's a landmark study in Gregory
Speaker 1: Rasputin's life and his influence. And as I've just mentioned,
Speaker 1: you've written a lot on Russia. What what brought you
Speaker 1: to such an important project, uh, and one that focused
Speaker 1: on Rasputin in particular. Well, I had never really planned
Speaker 1: to write a book about Rasputin and to spend like
Speaker 1: six years of my life full time doing it. Um
Speaker 1: I wrote a book before this, called Former People, which
Speaker 1: told the story of what happened to the Russian nobility,
Speaker 1: the Russian one percent, if you will, following the revolutions
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventeen with the collapse of the Romanov dynasty
Speaker 1: and then Lennon and the Bolshevik seizure of power at
Speaker 1: the end of the year. Um and I was fascinated
Speaker 1: by the story. You know, in the United States we
Speaker 1: always love to hear about, you know, rags to riches. Well,
Speaker 1: the story of the nobility was the ultimate story of
Speaker 1: riches to rags. And while I was researching that book,
Speaker 1: I had to dig deep into the final years of
Speaker 1: the Romanov dynasty, so the first years of the twenty century,
Speaker 1: and in every source I seemed to poke my nose into,
Speaker 1: there was the specter of of respute and hanging hanging
Speaker 1: around in the background. And so I became more and
Speaker 1: more curious about them. Simply as a result of that
Speaker 1: that previous research. Um and Uh as a figure, as
Speaker 1: a character, as a as a as a myth and
Speaker 1: a legend, he began to attract my attention. Um And
Speaker 1: then also purely for sort of um marketing purposes. I
Speaker 1: realized this was about that we were going to be
Speaker 1: coming up on the centenary of the murder of Resputing
Speaker 1: in sixteen and then the centenary of the Russian Revolution
Speaker 1: UM and publishers do love these big hundred year retrospective
Speaker 1: type publishing opportunities. So I thought, well, this is a
Speaker 1: perfect time to uh to revisit uh and try to
Speaker 1: really better understand this amazingly important character. Douglas sam here
Speaker 1: speaking of the of the sources in that um in
Speaker 1: this work. One of the things that was so illuminating
Speaker 1: to me through as I was reading your book is
Speaker 1: how complicated the just trying to trace out the history
Speaker 1: of that is, even as he looms uh so ever
Speaker 1: presently in the background, UM, can you describe your work
Speaker 1: a little bit and analyzing the sources that have formed
Speaker 1: the traditional history of the Rasputin myth and some of
Speaker 1: the what has made it, what makes it so difficult
Speaker 1: to dig into, like a a kind of unblemished history
Speaker 1: of Rasputin. Yeah. Well, you know, when I decided I
Speaker 1: want to do to the book, UM, I I told
Speaker 1: myself that I wasn't going to go down to the
Speaker 1: university library and pull out the last fifteen biographies of
Speaker 1: resputing and take notes and sort of regurgitated all which
Speaker 1: is kind of what has happened for a long time now,
Speaker 1: So you get the same myths and stories and distortions
Speaker 1: and lies and airs told and retold and retold. Um
Speaker 1: So I set myself the task of really digging into
Speaker 1: the archives and going back to the original sources, the
Speaker 1: original letters and documents and memoirs and police reports and
Speaker 1: and things like that, which basically no one has really done.
Speaker 1: Not necessarily their fault, but for most of the Soviet
Speaker 1: period documents on respute and were not available. It was
Speaker 1: sort of a taboo subject. You just couldn't study it
Speaker 1: in depth. Um So I came along at a good
Speaker 1: time when a lot of this stuff that for decades
Speaker 1: no one had been allowed to see, I was given
Speaker 1: access to. So I spent years in archives across Russia
Speaker 1: and Moscow and Petersburg, but also out in Siberia where
Speaker 1: he was from places like to Bullskin to mien Um.
Speaker 1: And then I also was really interested in in finding out,
Speaker 1: you know, what might be available about him outside of Russia.
Speaker 1: So I was to Paris and Berlin, to Vienna, London,
Speaker 1: Oxford UM, the Hoover Institution at Stanford. So I really
Speaker 1: ransacked the archives and was able to dig up tons
Speaker 1: of of amazing original source material that had escaped the
Speaker 1: attention of historians before. And in so doing too, I
Speaker 1: think dispel with a lot of the myth and and
Speaker 1: conjecture and air, and I hope create a much more
Speaker 1: realistic portrayal of this person. That's great. That really comes
Speaker 1: through to us of course, to the readers of your book,
Speaker 1: and we hope that people who listened to to our
Speaker 1: program will go and read your book because your researches
Speaker 1: is amazing. Let's let's go back to some of what
Speaker 1: you found. You mentioned Siberia there before your work. As
Speaker 1: you say, much of what we you know, quote, knew
Speaker 1: of Recputan's life in Siberia prior to his coming to
Speaker 1: the capital and rising to prominence. It was a mystery.
Speaker 1: So maybe for recipients early life, what did you discover
Speaker 1: when you did that work, Well, that's that was one
Speaker 1: of the real challenges is basically the first thirty years
Speaker 1: or so of his life or a giant black hole
Speaker 1: for which we have very little reliable information and in
Speaker 1: a way that lack of information, lack of documentation has
Speaker 1: allowed UM people to create all sorts of lies and
Speaker 1: stories about the young Resputin. There was nothing to refute
Speaker 1: those stories pretty much, and so it was sort of
Speaker 1: an open book. You could write as you saw fit,
Speaker 1: and so people tended to talk about him as this,
Speaker 1: you know, horse thieve, this, reprobate this, UM, you know,
Speaker 1: hooligan if you will, UM. And I decided that, okay,
Speaker 1: there's got to be something in the archives out in
Speaker 1: Siberia that will dispel these stories or prove them to
Speaker 1: be true. You know, I was open to whatever I
Speaker 1: might find. And so one of the things that was
Speaker 1: interesting is UM into bolsk Uh in Siberia, which has
Speaker 1: a fairly good sized archive and has information on Resputing
Speaker 1: that no one had really seen before. I was able
Speaker 1: to dispel once and for all the story that he
Speaker 1: had been a horse thief in his youth, which is
Speaker 1: one of these things that gets repeated over and over
Speaker 1: and over. But I did find uh some information that
Speaker 1: had escaped previous historians, which was a a small notice
Speaker 1: in a document that recorded UH arrests and UM brief jailings,
Speaker 1: if you will, of people in the village of Pakrovskaya,
Speaker 1: which is where he was from, not far from to
Speaker 1: bullsk and as a teenager, young Grigory Resiput and had
Speaker 1: in fact been thrown as my dad would say, thrown
Speaker 1: in the uscal uh put In the local pen, the
Speaker 1: local jail for a couple of days for using abusive
Speaker 1: language towards the local mayor. Now, this was kind of
Speaker 1: an interesting discovery, um in that it does give us
Speaker 1: like one of the few little kernels of real factual
Speaker 1: information about his youth, and it does, in my reading
Speaker 1: of it, suggests that he was sort of a ruffian um,
Speaker 1: a little bit of a rebel, a little bit of
Speaker 1: a troublemaker, even as a young person. So that was
Speaker 1: one of the few things that I found that would
Speaker 1: add to the story. But chiefly what I found there
Speaker 1: was the lack of evidence, uh to dispel so many
Speaker 1: of the false stories. One of the things that that
Speaker 1: you point out, especially in the beginning of your book,
Speaker 1: and seems to be a theme that comes out, is
Speaker 1: that Rasputin's background, just being from Siberia is something that
Speaker 1: really follows him and plays plays into his relationships even
Speaker 1: in the capital Um. And it seems like Raspute, or
Speaker 1: that Siberia rather occupies the kind of a complicated place
Speaker 1: in in broader in the broader identity of Russia. Can
Speaker 1: you describe some of the general contours of the place
Speaker 1: of of Siberia and cybera Arians within Russian identity and consciousness,
Speaker 1: especially kind of as they're seen in as they would
Speaker 1: have been seen in like European Russia, or well, obviously
Speaker 1: for for so much of the world, I mean, Siberia
Speaker 1: conjures up all sorts of uh, exotic notions if you will,
Speaker 1: you know, bears walking down the street, and the vastness
Speaker 1: of the place, it's extremes of of temperature um and
Speaker 1: the fact that so for so much of Russian history
Speaker 1: Siberia has been a dumping ground for for criminals and
Speaker 1: political prisoners. It's, you know, this vast space of that
Speaker 1: was some sort of you know, enormous um ice clad jail,
Speaker 1: if you will, for for for centuries um. And while
Speaker 1: there is obviously a great deal of truth to that um,
Speaker 1: Siberia is a more complicated place than one might originally think.
Speaker 1: And it was also um a place of freedom, which
Speaker 1: seems somewhat contradictory, but One of the things that distinguishes Siberia,
Speaker 1: which is that area east of the euro Mountains that
Speaker 1: divides Europe from Asia in that part of the world,
Speaker 1: is that there was never any serfdom in Siberia. Now,
Speaker 1: serfdom was basically a form of slavery, if you will,
Speaker 1: that existed in the European part of Russia. Um, much
Speaker 1: of much of the Russian populace under the Tsars were
Speaker 1: serfs um, which by sort of the beginning of the
Speaker 1: nineteenth century really was not all that different in many
Speaker 1: ways from American slavery. Serfs could be bought and sold,
Speaker 1: they could be abused, uh and were abused, work to
Speaker 1: the bone, and what have you. Well, the peasants of
Speaker 1: Siberia were not owned, they didn't have landlords, they didn't
Speaker 1: have masters, and so they they had a more independent
Speaker 1: kind of spirit than the serfs in European Russia. And
Speaker 1: I think this was central to understanding Resputing and who
Speaker 1: he was. He had never been a surf, he had
Speaker 1: never been owned. He was born a peasant, but a
Speaker 1: free peasant. And I think this is an important aspect
Speaker 1: of his biography and background that um explains part of
Speaker 1: how he managed to do what he do. It's hard
Speaker 1: to conceive of a Russian serf um growing up in
Speaker 1: such a harsh type of a system, displaying the level
Speaker 1: of of independence and freedom of spirit that resputant had
Speaker 1: mm hm. And you note that in that early period
Speaker 1: of his life he becomes a pilgrim, and that the
Speaker 1: themes that you were able to discern from studying the
Speaker 1: whole arc of his life, um, they really coalesced during
Speaker 1: that period. Could you talk a little about what those
Speaker 1: themes were and how they developed for the pilgrim Rasputin? Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: the the Russians had this notion of the holy pilgrim
Speaker 1: Russian ortstrani and by roughly n there was maybe as
Speaker 1: many as a million of these people, typically typically peasants
Speaker 1: who picked up and wandered the vast Russian Empire in
Speaker 1: search of spiritual and religious enlightenment. Um. They tended to
Speaker 1: live on the edge of poverty. Some of them went
Speaker 1: around in fetters, chains um. Some of them, even resputing,
Speaker 1: who went around in fetters for a while, would try
Speaker 1: to sort of mortify the flesh and deny themselves the
Speaker 1: pleasures of any flesh, whether it be you know, food, um.
Speaker 1: Resputing for long stretches as a holy pilgrim, would not
Speaker 1: change his clothes or underwear, lived in the wilds, lived
Speaker 1: out of doors UM in search of enlightenment that they
Speaker 1: might find in churches and monasteries and from priests um
Speaker 1: all over the country. And they would simply live off
Speaker 1: of alms and things like that as they went. So
Speaker 1: this was resputants university, if you will. UM. Sometime roughly
Speaker 1: when it was around twenty eight years old, he apparently
Speaker 1: had some sort of a religious experience of vision or something,
Speaker 1: and he got up and would leave home for long
Speaker 1: stretches and travel on foot all over the Russian Empire
Speaker 1: UM as one of these pilgrims seeking enlightenment, and it became,
Speaker 1: if you will, his university. He learned the Bible inside
Speaker 1: and out and was able after that to quote long
Speaker 1: stretches of the Bible from memory. UM. He had this
Speaker 1: incredible power of speaking about the Gospels in a way
Speaker 1: that was direct, honest, earthy, and full of the fire
Speaker 1: of a true believer that he had gained through these
Speaker 1: years as a pilgrim. And this is something that sort
Speaker 1: of set him apart um. And he also, if you will,
Speaker 1: learned all about the social order of Russia. He learned
Speaker 1: about the nobile, he learned about peasants, he learned about
Speaker 1: convicts and criminals, UM, And he came to see the
Speaker 1: world and to see Russia in one in which the
Speaker 1: peasants were the backbone of the country. UM and the
Speaker 1: elites were in a sense sort of parasites that lived
Speaker 1: off of the labor of the common of the common man.
Speaker 1: And these were themes that very much shaped his his
Speaker 1: thinking about Scripture UM, about the place of religion, and
Speaker 1: and the sort of critique that he kind of developed
Speaker 1: about the Russian social order. So, of course, uh speaking
Speaker 1: of the of the elites and and recipient's life as
Speaker 1: a pilgrim, of course that that life brings him to St. Petersburg.
Speaker 1: And could you tell us a bit about what St.
Speaker 1: Petersburg was like at the turn of the century, what
Speaker 1: what concerns dominated life there, and what might have attracted
Speaker 1: Rasputin to come to that city in. St. Petersburg was
Speaker 1: obviously the capital of the of the Russian Empire, and
Speaker 1: had been since the beginning of the eighteenth century when
Speaker 1: it was first created out of swamps by the Czar
Speaker 1: Peter the Great Um and by you know, nineteen hundred,
Speaker 1: around the time when Rasputin showed up, it was a
Speaker 1: very sort of vibrant, growing metropolis, full of enormous ghettos
Speaker 1: of poor, really miserable living conditions, on top of which
Speaker 1: sat a glittering small elite of the very wealthy and powerful.
Speaker 1: But for a figure like Resputant, who was clearly very ambitious,
Speaker 1: he he had he had enormous hopes for himself and
Speaker 1: his career as as sort of you know, an itinerant preacher,
Speaker 1: if you will. Um he was also very much a
Speaker 1: devout monarchist and believed in the institution of the monarchy
Speaker 1: and saw himself as a real devoted son subject of
Speaker 1: the of the Emperor of Russia. And I think much
Speaker 1: of what drove him to the capitol was was this
Speaker 1: sort of, if you will, kind of vainglory that he
Speaker 1: had that somehow he was going to reach the top
Speaker 1: of Russian society, that he had this message to bring
Speaker 1: to the elites of Russia and even bring to the
Speaker 1: palace of the Tsars. And I think this is ultimately
Speaker 1: what um led him from one provincial city after another
Speaker 1: to make his way to Petersburg, where he arrives either
Speaker 1: in nineteen o four or nineteen o five from what
Speaker 1: we can tell. Sometimes this period or the years leading
Speaker 1: up to it is called the Silver Age of Russia.
Speaker 1: Can you explain how people have used the Silver Age
Speaker 1: and what is usually meant by that? Right? So, the
Speaker 1: Silver Age refers to a period roughly from eighteen ninety
Speaker 1: until the outbreak of World War One in nineteen fourteen.
Speaker 1: And it's contrasted with the so called Golden Age of
Speaker 1: of Russian literature, which was sort of the first decades
Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century with the greatest of all Russian
Speaker 1: writers and poets Alexander Pushkin. So what you had in
Speaker 1: the Silver Age contrast with that was another flowering of
Speaker 1: of literature, art, culture, music that was going on in
Speaker 1: that fantasy eclip period um where you had incredible writers
Speaker 1: like Ahmatova coming along uh yes, say in Alexander Bloch
Speaker 1: and and many others that you had great painters like Rubel,
Speaker 1: You had composers like Rachmaninoff and Rubinstein. Um, the ballet
Speaker 1: was at its height under Um, under Jago liv and
Speaker 1: artists like Alexander ben Wah. So there was this like outpouring,
Speaker 1: this literally sort of bubbling of artistic expression that was
Speaker 1: happening during that period. UM. And this it's interesting is
Speaker 1: that Resputant's life and career overlaps almost exactly with with
Speaker 1: the Silver Age, So in some ways you could view
Speaker 1: him as as another expression of this this fervent bubbling
Speaker 1: over of of artistic and intellectual curiosity and productivity. You mentioned, Uh,
Speaker 1: of course that Rasputin was a UM, a devoted monarchist
Speaker 1: and had the these you know, these ambitions for UH,
Speaker 1: led by vain glory, to reach reach the pinnacle, reach
Speaker 1: even the czar and the emperor. UH. And the role
Speaker 1: of the autocracy just in general and Russia is is
Speaker 1: so central, it seems like to the story. UM, how
Speaker 1: would you describe the role that that the autocracy did
Speaker 1: play in in Russian life and consciousness? UM, and especially
Speaker 1: the connection between the czar and the people. Well, by
Speaker 1: this time, under Zar Nicholas the second, who would who
Speaker 1: would be the last? Are? The Romanov's had ruled rush
Speaker 1: of Um for three hundred years since sixteen thirteen when
Speaker 1: the first Romanoff was put on the throne. UM, So
Speaker 1: there's been three hundred years of of Romanov monarchy. The
Speaker 1: later decades of the dynasty under Nicholas. The second our
Speaker 1: our period of dynamic um change. The economy is taking off,
Speaker 1: it's growing, you get an increasingly sizeable um urban middle class,
Speaker 1: you get the development of of an urban proletariat. So
Speaker 1: on one hand, what you have is this sort of
Speaker 1: dynamism and and change going on in the economy and
Speaker 1: in society at large. And then you have this static
Speaker 1: um political system that goes back to the early seventeenth
Speaker 1: century of you know, one ruler with all supreme power
Speaker 1: apparently handed down from God. And so there's this growing
Speaker 1: tension between a dynamic and developing society and a rigid
Speaker 1: um political system that doesn't reflect the change um. And
Speaker 1: it's it's it's very much one of the struggles that
Speaker 1: the Nicholas faces as czar is how to handle this,
Speaker 1: and he does and absolutely horrifically appallingly bad job of
Speaker 1: handling it um. And it's obviously what then leads to
Speaker 1: revolution and the downfall of the monarchy in nineteen seventeen.
Speaker 1: Part of the problem is is Nicholas his own personality. Uh,
Speaker 1: he's weak, he's passive, he's indecisive, and he feels that
Speaker 1: he was handed this this duty upon coming to the
Speaker 1: throne following the death of his father, Alexander the Third,
Speaker 1: who was a true sort of tyrant who ruled with
Speaker 1: an iron fist. And and he doesn't sort of have
Speaker 1: that character that his father does, and he waffles, and
Speaker 1: he prevaricates, and he's not always sure what the right
Speaker 1: move is to make, and he basically in many ways
Speaker 1: sort of uh fumbles the situation. And he lives in
Speaker 1: a world that is completely cut off from the realities
Speaker 1: of the people that he rules over. Um. They live
Speaker 1: in a gilded cage. The Romanovs do partially because they
Speaker 1: know that there are segments of society with the want
Speaker 1: the monarchy swept away, and not only that would would
Speaker 1: want to kill him, and there are attempts on his life. Um.
Speaker 1: Alexander the Second was blown up by terrorists in eighty
Speaker 1: one UM. And so they're they're very much in a
Speaker 1: way isolated from the society that they rule over. You
Speaker 1: mentioned their Nicholas's personality. Of course, he marries Alexandra. Could
Speaker 1: you describe her past personality, maybe in comparison to Nicholas,
Speaker 1: or or how her personality interacted with this society that
Speaker 1: she stepped into when she married him right. So obviously, Alexandra,
Speaker 1: it's important to to know was was German born Um
Speaker 1: marries into the Russian Romanov family Uh, and it was
Speaker 1: a truly um loving marriage. They were utterly devoted to
Speaker 1: each other their entire life. They were utterly devoted to
Speaker 1: their children. But by temperament they were in many ways
Speaker 1: very different from each other. Whereas Nicholas was again sort
Speaker 1: of weak and and indecisive and and passive, if you will,
Speaker 1: she was UH brittle yet determined, UM very much someone
Speaker 1: who was very shy and awkward in public settings, always
Speaker 1: preferred to be uh in the privacy of the family
Speaker 1: and not out in public in a sense doing her
Speaker 1: royal duties as the Empress. She was profoundly mystical, spiritual,
Speaker 1: UM believed in all sorts of what to us today
Speaker 1: would seem in many ways as strange um occult kind
Speaker 1: of notions. UM. And she was somebody who, though she
Speaker 1: loved Nicholas, dearly saw him for who he was, and
Speaker 1: it must be said, saw the weaknesses of his character,
Speaker 1: and so spent much of her her life trying to
Speaker 1: find ways to support him in his role as are
Speaker 1: and trying to to do what she could, in her
Speaker 1: understanding of it, to make him a more effective and
Speaker 1: more powerful ruler. You mentioned Alexandra's mysticism, which which seems
Speaker 1: to show up certainly, not just in her, but it
Speaker 1: seems seems like it's a kind of almost a trend
Speaker 1: among elites in the capitol um. What was going on
Speaker 1: in Russia at that time, during this Silver Age that
Speaker 1: made the members among the aristocracy so interested and eager
Speaker 1: in these kind of eccentric religious figures and occultism, mysticism,
Speaker 1: things like that, right with the sort of the the
Speaker 1: tight geist, if you will, of of fantasy eclo. Russia,
Speaker 1: like other parts in Europe. Actually, to be honest, at
Speaker 1: the time, there was there was very much a fascination
Speaker 1: with with with dark forces at play, with a sense
Speaker 1: that they were on the verge of some sort of
Speaker 1: apocalyptic change, that it was in some ways the end
Speaker 1: of times um. And there was a profound um fascination
Speaker 1: with with mysticism, spiritualism, the cult uh you know, seances
Speaker 1: and table turning and and all sorts of these sorts
Speaker 1: of things. Hypnotism was was quite popular at the time,
Speaker 1: and that's one thing that's often forgotten, I think when
Speaker 1: people write about Nicholas and Alexandrin and their relationship with
Speaker 1: Respute and um is it wasn't like they were the
Speaker 1: only ones who were into this kind of thing. Most
Speaker 1: of UH sort of elite aristocratic society and Rush at
Speaker 1: the time was fascinated with with very spiritualist leaders, with
Speaker 1: gurus uh and what have you. UM and there was
Speaker 1: this desire to to seek alternate ways of connecting with
Speaker 1: with forms of reality that traditional religion and the church
Speaker 1: UM and science were unable to explain to people who
Speaker 1: were who were seeking answers to to sort of these
Speaker 1: life's questions that seemed to have this pressing urgency right
Speaker 1: around nineteen it Can you talk about who Mr Philippe
Speaker 1: was who stepped into this environment and maybe what his
Speaker 1: rise was like in that milieu. Well, Mr philipp is
Speaker 1: one of the one of the great characters in the
Speaker 1: whole story of Nicholas and Alexandra and and then by
Speaker 1: extension of resputing Uh he was basically a necromancer, a
Speaker 1: seer charlatan if you will, from France who came to
Speaker 1: the attention of Nicholas and Alexandra by way of the
Speaker 1: so called Black Crows. UH. These two sisters who had
Speaker 1: married into the extended Romanov family, and they were utterly
Speaker 1: obsessed with the occult and Rosicrucianism and mysticism. And they
Speaker 1: learned about this Monsieur Philippe through travels to France UM
Speaker 1: and they helped introduce him to Nicholas and Alexandra UM
Speaker 1: and he made his way to the court in St. Petersburg,
Speaker 1: and they were utterly taken with him. They were convinced
Speaker 1: he was a prophet um, that he could divine the future,
Speaker 1: and that he had insights um into the nature of
Speaker 1: rule and power and and and how um Nicholas should
Speaker 1: should govern Russia. And he also claimed a very unique
Speaker 1: skill that was really crucially important to UH Nicholas an
Speaker 1: Alexander at the time, and that was the ability to
Speaker 1: determine and shape the sex of a child in utero.
Speaker 1: Now this was hugely important because obviously Alexandra's main task
Speaker 1: as empress was to give birth to a son and
Speaker 1: heir to the throne, and she gave birth to four
Speaker 1: daughters in a row. And there was great consternation uh
Speaker 1: within the royal family that Alexandra had failed her duty
Speaker 1: as the empress, and Philip claimed there was a certain
Speaker 1: magnetic electric energy that emanated from his fingertips, and by
Speaker 1: passing them over Uh the empresses belly once she was pregnant,
Speaker 1: he could make sure that the next child she had
Speaker 1: would be a son. And obviously this is something that
Speaker 1: was high on their list of priorities, and that gave
Speaker 1: Philippe this great um hold over Nicholas and Alexander for
Speaker 1: quite some time until he was outed as a charlatan
Speaker 1: by other members of the royal family and forced to
Speaker 1: leave Russia and go back to France for good. Speaking
Speaker 1: of Nicholas and Alexandra's male heir, then, UM, it seems
Speaker 1: like one of the most determinative decisions that they make
Speaker 1: is when they find they have a male son, Uh
Speaker 1: that he of course has has hemophilia, but they they
Speaker 1: keep it a secret for a long time. Um. Why
Speaker 1: did why did they feel like they needed to keep
Speaker 1: that such a secret from everyone? Well, obviously, there was
Speaker 1: incredible sense of relief and joy when alex say, the
Speaker 1: first boy was born into the into the family after
Speaker 1: four girls. Um. There was a sense that Alexandra had
Speaker 1: fulfilled her duty as the Empress, had delivered a male heir.
Speaker 1: For Nicholas the second. But once it's learned not that
Speaker 1: long on, that he that he has tim ophelia, that
Speaker 1: he has this bleeding disease, there's utter terror and panic
Speaker 1: because obviously there's a fear, as often happens with with OPHELIAX,
Speaker 1: especially in those days when the disease was not as
Speaker 1: well understood, that he would not live to adulthood UM.
Speaker 1: And the last thing they wanted Russia to know was
Speaker 1: that the boy that she had produced was ill, was
Speaker 1: diseased UH, and would likely die within a few years.
Speaker 1: And this was something they were kept as a very
Speaker 1: closely guarded secret and were terrified UM to let out
Speaker 1: beyond sort of the confines of the palace. Now it's
Speaker 1: interesting is that UM people always assume that what brought
Speaker 1: Respute into the palace was his ability to heal the
Speaker 1: sick air, alex say, But in fact it's much more
Speaker 1: complicated than that, and you have to, in fact go
Speaker 1: back to Monsieur Philippe, because Monsieur Philippe, when he left
Speaker 1: Russia for good, told Nicholas and Alexandra to be patient,
Speaker 1: that he could see into the future at time when
Speaker 1: a man would come to take his place as their friend,
Speaker 1: and that is how they referred to Monsieur Philippe and
Speaker 1: later to Respute, was as our friend, and that someone
Speaker 1: would come to take his place and to provide the
Speaker 1: same role um, to play the same role that he
Speaker 1: had in their lives Um. And this is very much
Speaker 1: then what prepares the way for resputing to come into
Speaker 1: the lives of Nicholas and Alexandra, that is independent of
Speaker 1: the illness of alex Say, when resput and does arrive,
Speaker 1: he makes lots of connections with others among the aristocracy,
Speaker 1: among the elites before he meets the czar um, when
Speaker 1: he when he got to St. Petersburg nineteen o five
Speaker 1: and nineteen o six, What kinds of relationships was he
Speaker 1: building with these elite figures? Were they his followers? Were
Speaker 1: they some kind of friend? What were these relationships he
Speaker 1: was building? Well? What helps sort of open the doors
Speaker 1: of the capital for resputing um, chiefly are his contacts
Speaker 1: with higher ups within the um Russian Orthodox Church. Through
Speaker 1: his years as a holy pilgrim, he had come to
Speaker 1: impress a great many priests and then bishops and archbishops
Speaker 1: within the church as a true man of God, as
Speaker 1: a true holy man who has risen up from the
Speaker 1: depths of Russian peasant society. And he literally gets letters
Speaker 1: of recommendation from priests and bishops as churches, at churches
Speaker 1: and monasteries as he goes along. And it's with these
Speaker 1: letters of recommendation that he shows up in St. Petersburg,
Speaker 1: probably some time around nineteen o four and is immediately
Speaker 1: accepted in at the Alexander Neevsky Monastery, one of the
Speaker 1: great seats of Russian holiness within the Russian Orthodox Church UM.
Speaker 1: And originally, these these church members are amazed at this figure.
Speaker 1: They have never seen someone quite like him, the energy,
Speaker 1: the fervor with which he praised the and preaches the
Speaker 1: word of God. UM. He's referred to as a as
Speaker 1: a burning torch, as a taught string um. They sense
Speaker 1: this sort of electrical charge that comes from him as
Speaker 1: he speaks the word of God. And then through his
Speaker 1: connections in the church, he then is introduced into aristocratic society.
Speaker 1: He makes his way from palace to palace, going to
Speaker 1: various aristocratic salons UM. And these men and women within
Speaker 1: the upper echelons of Russian society are fascinated by these
Speaker 1: um peasant holy men. If you will. It's like they're
Speaker 1: being put in touch with creatures from another planet. Um.
Speaker 1: It's a world that they, being part of the westernized
Speaker 1: urban elite, have no real contact with. They don't go
Speaker 1: to Siberia, they don't go to peasant huts, and so
Speaker 1: it allows them to enter this whole world of a
Speaker 1: Russian society from which they're cut off, but which holds
Speaker 1: great fascination for them amidst this group of of elites
Speaker 1: that he's building these relationships with. It seems like or
Speaker 1: certainly one of the more enduring elements of the respute
Speaker 1: and story is that a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: these followers were women. Uh. And I was wondering if
Speaker 1: you could comment and help us to understand what aristocratic St.
Speaker 1: Petersburg women found it to be attractive in Respue, what
Speaker 1: what drew them to him. I think what's really important
Speaker 1: in trying to understand h resputants popularity amongst sort of um,
Speaker 1: the women of places like St. Petersburg is to is
Speaker 1: to recognize that these were women typically from the upper
Speaker 1: levels of society, women who did not work, women who
Speaker 1: are not encouraged or often he even really allowed to
Speaker 1: do work. Um, they were often lonely. They were often
Speaker 1: in loveless marriages or single um many of them, uh,
Speaker 1: we're not actually put it, having their emotional spiritual needs
Speaker 1: met either in their personal relationships within the family or
Speaker 1: from the religious um figures that they met through the
Speaker 1: official Russian Orthodox Church, which by this time was very bureaucratic,
Speaker 1: was almost like a you know, simply a branch of
Speaker 1: civil servants, if you will. And a figure like Resputin
Speaker 1: comes along, full of of dynamism and passion and energy,
Speaker 1: and he very basically on one level, he just listens
Speaker 1: to them. He's willing to hear them. He's he's willing, uh,
Speaker 1: he hears them, he listens to them, he takes their
Speaker 1: concerns into his soul, if you will. And for a
Speaker 1: lot of women, this is this is something they simply
Speaker 1: have not had in their life, that they've been searching
Speaker 1: in their life. So that's that's part of it. Um.
Speaker 1: There's also the flip side, which you know is central
Speaker 1: to to who risputing was um uh is he was alleged.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no better way around it. He would
Speaker 1: not have fared very well in the the me too
Speaker 1: moment of our our recent history. Um. He pawed them,
Speaker 1: he rubbed them, he stroked them. Uh. We really don't
Speaker 1: know how far he went with some of them, um,
Speaker 1: but uh, you know, to some of these women, his
Speaker 1: physical attentions may have been welcome things lacking in their
Speaker 1: own lives. But I think for most of them they
Speaker 1: were elements of his personality and conduct that they cared
Speaker 1: uh not to indulge him in um um. But there
Speaker 1: was this against attention he gave to these women who
Speaker 1: were were very much seeking of connection, if you will.
Speaker 1: So at this point, what was resputing along with these relationships?
Speaker 1: What was he actually teaching um where his teaching is
Speaker 1: kind of esoteric? Were they scandalous to the Russian Orthodox Church?
Speaker 1: Or you mentioned that it was a connections in the
Speaker 1: church that built the bridge into high society for him.
Speaker 1: Was he teaching Orthodoxy where his teaching is practical? Can
Speaker 1: you describe characterize his his teaching at this point? Well,
Speaker 1: on one hand, you know, the the church is looking
Speaker 1: to revitalize itself. It feels that, you know, they're sort
Speaker 1: of dead at its core, and they they're looking for
Speaker 1: um an injection of energy and fervency and and and
Speaker 1: burning belief and figures like Resputent offered that um. Now
Speaker 1: myths uh and gossips start to develop around Respute and
Speaker 1: that he is a member of one of these illegal
Speaker 1: sex known as the klisti hlist is the Russian word
Speaker 1: for whip. That the uh, that he is a member
Speaker 1: of this group that engages in all sorts of strange
Speaker 1: rights and rituals of selflagellation or giastic sex um, all
Speaker 1: sorts of things like this and this is this is
Speaker 1: a cloud that hangs over his head his whole his
Speaker 1: whole life. He probably was never remembered that UM. But
Speaker 1: in terms of his his actual teachings and the message
Speaker 1: that he brings really in many ways is nothing radical,
Speaker 1: is nothing terribly um earth shattering or new. What he's
Speaker 1: able to do is to is to quote scripture talk
Speaker 1: about the teachings of Jesus and the Gospel in a
Speaker 1: way that is imbued with this sort of peasant earthiness. UM.
Speaker 1: He speaks about it in a way that that imbues
Speaker 1: it with the life and an energy that the sort
Speaker 1: of hide bound priests of the of the Orthodox Church
Speaker 1: are are aren't able to do. He goes on and
Speaker 1: on at length about the beauty of of of nature
Speaker 1: of God's creation UM that can be felt and experienced
Speaker 1: by being out in the in the fields and woods
Speaker 1: of Russia. And this speaks very much to the people
Speaker 1: in the urban areas UM. He also has a message
Speaker 1: of love, of Christ's love that is powerful. And he
Speaker 1: also has a certain social critique that I think people
Speaker 1: are are UM open to listening. And this is very
Speaker 1: much about the importance of the common people, the importance
Speaker 1: of the Russian peasant, the importance of the poor and
Speaker 1: the degree to which they are being fed upon UM
Speaker 1: by the upper classes. Much of the teachings that he
Speaker 1: he gives is a social critique of the idle rich
Speaker 1: of the urban capitals UM, and this is something that
Speaker 1: he he very much believes in UM and has a
Speaker 1: certain resonance among people themselves, even though they may be
Speaker 1: from these social classes. Speaking of dynamic, dynamic religious figures
Speaker 1: that are are gaining popularity at this time, one of
Speaker 1: the most fascinating figures aside from Rasputin, to me as
Speaker 1: I was reading your book was the monk iliodor h.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit about about who he
Speaker 1: is and why he's He looms so heavily in Rasputin's. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Iliodorus a fascinating and utterly bizarre character. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: one of these figures you really couldn't make up even
Speaker 1: if you tried. He was again one of these sort
Speaker 1: of popular preachers who, unlike Resputent, does go to the
Speaker 1: theological seminary and does get an actual training UH in
Speaker 1: theology and religion and becomes an an Orthodox priest. Resputent
Speaker 1: never gets a theological training, never becomes a priest. Um.
Speaker 1: But Iliodor is UH an extreme vocal critic of Nicholas
Speaker 1: the Second and the autocracy in its in its waning years.
Speaker 1: Not what you might expect from the left, denouncing it
Speaker 1: as an oppressive autocratic institution that denies freedom and civil liberties,
Speaker 1: but a critic from the right. He is the nastiest
Speaker 1: of anti semites. Um is constantly um denouncing Jews as
Speaker 1: an evil influence as the destroyers of the Russian Orthodox people,
Speaker 1: denounces Nicholas and his government for not doing more to
Speaker 1: come down hard on the Jews and the Empire. He
Speaker 1: denounces intellectuals he had, denounces socialists and liberals and the
Speaker 1: intelligentsia and what have you. And he he establishes fairly
Speaker 1: large following in the city of Saditz in UH quite
Speaker 1: a way as outside the capital, but he becomes a
Speaker 1: thorn in the side of the regime because he's he's
Speaker 1: constantly denouncing it and calling for violence UM and early
Speaker 1: on Resputing is drawn to Eliador and another one of
Speaker 1: these sort of right wing priests by the name of
Speaker 1: Germ again and the three of them, Krum becomes sort
Speaker 1: of a tricha, a threesome of these um upstart preachers,
Speaker 1: if you will. UM. But eventually, over time Respute and
Speaker 1: breaks with Theodore and get him again, and they become
Speaker 1: sort of blood enemies, to the point that Iliador will
Speaker 1: be involved in two plots to have Respute and murdered
Speaker 1: once Ressputan does meet the czar and meet the Romanos.
Speaker 1: What do we know about You know, we we've talked
Speaker 1: about that he was a monarchist and wanted to support
Speaker 1: UM bizarre, but do we know anything more about kind
Speaker 1: of his personal or inner motives and aims. Uh focused
Speaker 1: on Nicholas, Alexandra the royal household as he was forming
Speaker 1: and maintaining a bond with them. Well, we know the
Speaker 1: first time they met was the first November nineteen o five,
Speaker 1: when as a result of his connections with the sisters
Speaker 1: I mentioned the from Montenet grow the Black Crows who
Speaker 1: had married into the Romanov family and gotten to no Resputin,
Speaker 1: that they found a way to introduce Resputent into the
Speaker 1: palace um. And there was a meeting that Nicholas and
Speaker 1: Alexandra had with him, and they were from the very
Speaker 1: beginning utterly beguiled by him. They were completely completely impressed
Speaker 1: with him, taken in by him, moved by him, and
Speaker 1: sat with him for for hours listening to him, to
Speaker 1: him speak. Now, it's important the timing of this. The
Speaker 1: fall of nineteen o five Russia isn't turmoil. This is
Speaker 1: the so called revolution of nineteen o five, when the
Speaker 1: cities are burning, there's unrest all over the country and
Speaker 1: and the autocracy actually does come close to being torn
Speaker 1: down by revolution, and Resputent comes to them. And what's
Speaker 1: interesting is from the very beginning of their relationship he
Speaker 1: offers Nicholas political advice and says, don't give up the throne,
Speaker 1: don't give up power, maintain the dynasty, maintain the autocracy.
Speaker 1: And this is just the sort of message that Nick
Speaker 1: Nicholas is looking for and especially to hear it not
Speaker 1: from some minister or general, but to hear it from
Speaker 1: a peasant from Siberia, from a man of God. It's
Speaker 1: as almost as if he becomes a a a mouthpiece
Speaker 1: for all of peasant Russia. When Nicholas and Alexander sit
Speaker 1: down with Resputant, they feel they are hearing the voice
Speaker 1: of the peasant masses that they have no other way
Speaker 1: of accessing. And from the very beginning he is giving
Speaker 1: Nicholas political advice, and this is hugely important. It again
Speaker 1: undercuts the notion that the main attraction to Resputin was
Speaker 1: to try to keep alex a healthy and alive um,
Speaker 1: which does become huge important, but from the very beginning
Speaker 1: was was much less important, and maybe not even important
Speaker 1: at all. And what Respute gets out of this obviously
Speaker 1: is is just, you know, to be able to bask
Speaker 1: uh In, knowing that he is admitted to the palace
Speaker 1: where no other peasant is allowed, that he has the
Speaker 1: ear of the Emperor and the Empress of Russia is
Speaker 1: uh something that obviously plays to his notions that he
Speaker 1: is a divine figure, that he is important, that he's
Speaker 1: powerful um and that it it gives him, you know,
Speaker 1: this this aura of authority. That is something I think
Speaker 1: that he has a very um striving individual who wanted
Speaker 1: to see how far he could go with his life
Speaker 1: and career becomes a great reward in and of itself.
Speaker 1: One of the most helpful ways, as I was again
Speaker 1: reading your book, that you you frame out in terms
Speaker 1: of thinking about the nature of that relationship was through
Speaker 1: the lens of a royal favorite. Um. Could you tell
Speaker 1: us a bit about how how Rasputin UH stacked up
Speaker 1: with with other royal favorites UH, And it may be
Speaker 1: a little bit about what that institution is, right, well,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a way of thinking about resputing that
Speaker 1: people have generally not considered. UM. I I was immediately
Speaker 1: struck by it. As as as a functional relationship. That
Speaker 1: is is really important to understanding the dynamic of the relationship. Obviously,
Speaker 1: monarchies UH tend to generate royal favorites, and you you know,
Speaker 1: you have them in England, you have them in France
Speaker 1: and Germany, UH and other places, and obviously you had
Speaker 1: them in Russia before one of the great periods of
Speaker 1: royal favorites in Russian history was in the reign of
Speaker 1: Catherine the Great in the second half of the eighteenth
Speaker 1: century UM where you had the arlaf Brothers, Gregory or
Speaker 1: a law who was Katherine the Great lover who helped
Speaker 1: to you know, put her on the throne and overthrow
Speaker 1: her husband, the Czar Peter the Third. And then after
Speaker 1: she's done with Gregory Orlof, she takes another favorite, Gregory
Speaker 1: Pachomkin Potempkin as he's known in English, who becomes quite
Speaker 1: possibly her secret husband and one of her great favorites.
Speaker 1: Is it's it's it's someone who helps share the burdens
Speaker 1: of rule. It's it's a figure that a ruler can
Speaker 1: completely open up to UM, can can help UM if
Speaker 1: you will share the emotional challenges of kingship UM and
Speaker 1: in a sense respute and fulfills that same function to
Speaker 1: Nicholas and Alexandra that the Orlof Brothers or Gregory patch
Speaker 1: Tomkin did for Kathyn the Great. One of the things though,
Speaker 1: I think that's that's similar is that outsiders always hate favorites.
Speaker 1: So the courtiers in the time of Catherine the Great
Speaker 1: felt that an Orlof or or a pet Tompkins access
Speaker 1: to the ruler and power was not justified, that it
Speaker 1: was illegitimate, if you will. And that's the same thing
Speaker 1: that happens with with with Resputin is the ministers and
Speaker 1: courtiers and generals and aristocrats feel that that the influence
Speaker 1: that uh Resputent has, the access he has is illegitimate
Speaker 1: and undeserved and undermines the prestige of their monarchy. So
Speaker 1: that's one thing that's similar. One thing that's different about
Speaker 1: Resputin as a favorite is favorites typically, once they attached
Speaker 1: themselves to a ruler, stay very close physically. They live
Speaker 1: in the palace, they live nearby the palace, they're always there,
Speaker 1: they're always at the side of the ruler, and they
Speaker 1: almost always typically use that access to enrich themselves with
Speaker 1: great wealth and titles and what have you. What's interesting
Speaker 1: about Resputant is that he's very different. He never moves
Speaker 1: into the palace, He maintains his home in Siberia, and
Speaker 1: he never enriches himself. He doesn't get any any sort
Speaker 1: of noble titles, and he doesn't acquire great wealth, which
Speaker 1: in some ways is very different from what you typically
Speaker 1: see with a royal favorite. Mm hmm. Let's go follow
Speaker 1: some of those rumors and things that grew up around resputing.
Speaker 1: Do we know if the if the raised suspicions and
Speaker 1: the primary investigation of him and his religious practices during
Speaker 1: some of those early years nineteen o seven, and did
Speaker 1: they affect his relationship with the ars Arena. Well, it's
Speaker 1: interesting is to look at how the the um criticisms
Speaker 1: against Respute and shift over the course of his life
Speaker 1: and in the early years when he after he's first
Speaker 1: sort of made connections at court Um and starts to
Speaker 1: gain notoriety. The criticisms against him are chiefly religious based,
Speaker 1: that he's, as I mentioned, a member of this illegal sect,
Speaker 1: the polisti Um, that he has engaged in or giastic
Speaker 1: religious practices and what have you. This is the original
Speaker 1: criticism against him Um. And there are investigations that are
Speaker 1: begun into his religious practices back at home in Siberia.
Speaker 1: And these these concerns are brought before Nicholas and Alexandra,
Speaker 1: and they basically dismissed them out of hand, and they
Speaker 1: say that, you know, whenever a great religious figure rises
Speaker 1: up out of the people, the religious powers that be
Speaker 1: tend to dismiss them and distrust them. Um and try
Speaker 1: to cast them in a harsh light, and they basically
Speaker 1: push all of this stuff away and refused to used
Speaker 1: to listen to these criticisms. As as respuents relationship continues
Speaker 1: to develop, Um and the these these rumors start to
Speaker 1: to swirl a bit more. You know that the first
Speaker 1: serious test then of his relationship with the with the
Speaker 1: throne comes when Prime Minister's Stolepian and dress Hiv tried
Speaker 1: to banish him from the capital unsuccessfully. UM. I was curious,
Speaker 1: why were such powerful men like them unable to to
Speaker 1: do something that seemed kind of simple to banish him
Speaker 1: from the capital, right exactly. Um. One of the things
Speaker 1: that that happens over time is that the more resputing
Speaker 1: is criticized by powerful men within the government, within the army,
Speaker 1: within the church, the more Alexandra double is down that
Speaker 1: she is not going to let them take respute and
Speaker 1: away from her. UM. I think she always regretted the
Speaker 1: fact that she had allowed members of the Romanov family
Speaker 1: and within the government circles to force her Nicholas to
Speaker 1: get rid of Monsieur Philippe, and she was she was
Speaker 1: determined that that was not going to happen. Again, and
Speaker 1: Nicholas could not stand confrontation with Alexandra um and it's
Speaker 1: it's there's a story. It may be hippocryphal, but I
Speaker 1: put it in the book because it I think it
Speaker 1: captures a certain truth, whether or not was actually said
Speaker 1: or not. But apparently Nicholas told steleip And that, you know,
Speaker 1: I cannot get rid of Resputing because for me, it's
Speaker 1: better to have one Resputin than you know, another hundred
Speaker 1: hysterical fits uh from Alexandra if I'm forced to get
Speaker 1: rid of this man. So you all will just need
Speaker 1: find your way to deal with his presence, with the
Speaker 1: fact that he's a part of our life, because I
Speaker 1: just can't get rid of him. My wife needs him,
Speaker 1: the Empress needs him. And this is just how it's
Speaker 1: going to be with Nicholas saying things like that. Can
Speaker 1: you help us understand how serious monarchists who supported the
Speaker 1: czar thought they were helping him by publicly attacking Respute
Speaker 1: And when that came about, well, those who are devout
Speaker 1: monarchists come to see resputants presence and the rumors um
Speaker 1: and gossip about him as a horrible womanizer, as a
Speaker 1: member of this illegal religious sect that this is um
Speaker 1: tarnishing the reputation of the throne, this is undermining the
Speaker 1: legitimacy of the Romanov dynasty. So they perceive it as
Speaker 1: protecting Nicholas and Alexandra, protecting the throne by trying to
Speaker 1: remove resputin um and have him banished to Siberia um
Speaker 1: and never you know, being allowed to come back into
Speaker 1: the presence of Nicholas and Alexandra. So that's kind of
Speaker 1: how they perceive their attempts to, as they understand it,
Speaker 1: open the eyes of Nicholas and Alexandra to the true
Speaker 1: character of Respute and and to the damage he's doing
Speaker 1: to the aura um around the throne. But there's another
Speaker 1: dynamic going on. Is is is they are are very
Speaker 1: much resent Resputin because Nicholas and Alexandra allow very few
Speaker 1: people into their private world um, and that extends to
Speaker 1: the aristocracy and the upper reaches of the government. They
Speaker 1: don't even allow the great princes and princesses of the
Speaker 1: of the realm into their most private and intimate spheres
Speaker 1: of life. Yet they are allowed owing a peasant to
Speaker 1: have access to that. And this is something that rubs
Speaker 1: them all the wrong way. That makes them angry, envious, jealous. Um,
Speaker 1: there's a good deal of sort of basic sort of
Speaker 1: class hatred where these aristocrats look down their nose at
Speaker 1: the peasant masses of Russia. And so there's an also
Speaker 1: element of that going on in their criticism, something obviously
Speaker 1: that they don't they don't say, but is very much
Speaker 1: part of what is motivating their actions. Speaking of that,
Speaker 1: that incredibly close access that Rasputin has with the Romanovs,
Speaker 1: another of the most enduring UH elements of the Rasputin
Speaker 1: myth is that UH he and Alexandra were lovers. And
Speaker 1: you note that it was most likely that that idea
Speaker 1: came about from Eliodor, who UH published a letter from
Speaker 1: supposedly is from from Alexandra to Rasputin. Can you ascribe
Speaker 1: that letter and uh the effect that it had in
Speaker 1: the public once it was once it was released. So Um, Alexandra,
Speaker 1: UM and Resputin exchange letters. Resputent also exchanged letters with
Speaker 1: UH with the children UM in the family, and on
Speaker 1: a visit to Pakrovskaya too Resputent's home, Resputent showed some
Speaker 1: of these letters to Iliador. Now we don't know exactly
Speaker 1: what happened, but it appears that Eliador stole some of them,
Speaker 1: including a letter that Alexandra wrote to Resputing at a
Speaker 1: moment of extreme grief and sadness and emotional distress, and
Speaker 1: which she talks about, you know, I'm only able to,
Speaker 1: you know, feel at peace and at ease when i
Speaker 1: can rest my head on your shoulder, when I'm in
Speaker 1: your presence, when I feel your warmth around me. Um.
Speaker 1: And Iliador basically held down to this letter as as
Speaker 1: as a well up and to use against Resputin when
Speaker 1: the time came, and he did just that. Copies of
Speaker 1: the letter were made, they spread throughout society, and it
Speaker 1: became the basis of this notion that there was a
Speaker 1: sexual relationship between Resputin and the Empress. Now nine certain
Speaker 1: there never was any such relationship. Um. But again this
Speaker 1: information was brought before for Nicholas, and he was presented
Speaker 1: with the actual letter, and he said, yes, this is
Speaker 1: Alexandra's handwriting, took the letter, put it in his destroyer,
Speaker 1: and basically said, we will not speak of these matters further.
Speaker 1: But again it becomes um part of the basis for
Speaker 1: the myth that not only is Resputing offering spiritual sucker
Speaker 1: um emotional comfort, but that in fact he's engaged in
Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with the empress, which then later grows
Speaker 1: metastas rises to the point that he's also sleeping with
Speaker 1: the daughters of Alexandra, in fact even gets one of
Speaker 1: them pregnant, and that there's talk that alex say, the
Speaker 1: heir to the throne, is in fact the bastard child
Speaker 1: of Resputant, and all the stuff just gets more outlandish
Speaker 1: and crazier as the years progress. So what do we
Speaker 1: know about resputents actual relationship to the Romanov children, the
Speaker 1: daughters to Alexey from that time? What is striking? We
Speaker 1: we know that you know he was he was allowed
Speaker 1: access to the nursery um where the children were being raised. Uh,
Speaker 1: he would help put them to bed, he would rough
Speaker 1: house with them. Um. It's quite startling. Um. And you
Speaker 1: really question the judgment of Nicholas and Alexandra. Um because
Speaker 1: there are maids present, There are nursemaids present, um, and
Speaker 1: they see this and they're they're shocked by it. Um.
Speaker 1: And they begin to then talk outside the palace and
Speaker 1: it's and it starts to spread. UM. Again, I don't
Speaker 1: think there was ever anything un toward Uh, that happened
Speaker 1: at these moments, they were always being watched by the
Speaker 1: parents or by nurses, what have you, nurse mates, Um,
Speaker 1: But it does become the source for gossip and rumors.
Speaker 1: We have letters, um that have survived that respute and
Speaker 1: wrote to the children, and they're they're you know, they're
Speaker 1: they're very innocent, and they're very you know, they don't
Speaker 1: suggest anything nefarious. They're they're very much you know, Tanyusha,
Speaker 1: I love you, I miss you. God loves you, God
Speaker 1: shines on you. Go out be in nature. There of
Speaker 1: that sort of nature. One of the big formative moments,
Speaker 1: it seems like, or at least an important one for
Speaker 1: for Rasped and was his his trip through the Holy
Speaker 1: Land in nineteen eleven. Can you tell a bit about, uh,
Speaker 1: what prompted that, how that affected him, and how that
Speaker 1: formed his own sense of purpose and standing as a
Speaker 1: holy man. Well, just as you know, I mentioned that
Speaker 1: he had begun his religious life as one of these
Speaker 1: holy pilgrims, going around Russia from church to church and
Speaker 1: monastery to monastery. Um, once you've tapped out Russia, what's
Speaker 1: the next big place to go as a pilgrim? And
Speaker 1: that would be to go to the Holy Land. And
Speaker 1: it's not as exotic maybe as it first seems, that
Speaker 1: you know, a Russian in nineteen eleven would be going
Speaker 1: to the Holy Land. There were actually packaged tours that
Speaker 1: Russians would go on that would that would take them
Speaker 1: to see the places connected to the life of Jesus.
Speaker 1: And this is essentially what he did as he went
Speaker 1: on one one of these package tours, if you will.
Speaker 1: But he was profoundly moved by the experience, and he
Speaker 1: wrote about it, and he and and he sent letters
Speaker 1: back to Nicholas and Alexandra about the meaning it had
Speaker 1: for him. One of the things that he came back
Speaker 1: with was a renewed um conviction that the only true
Speaker 1: form of Christianity was Russian Orthodoxy. He had nothing but
Speaker 1: horrible things to say about the other branches of the
Speaker 1: Christian faith, and and he came to believe that pilgrimage
Speaker 1: to the Holy Lands should be encouraged among Russian society
Speaker 1: as a way of instilling greater faith in the church,
Speaker 1: and by extension, than by instilling greater faith and loyalty
Speaker 1: among Russian Orthodox believers and subjects of the Crown. In
Speaker 1: the sanctity of the throne itself, that this was a
Speaker 1: way you could further bind Russians to the autocracy, was
Speaker 1: through these trips to the Holy Land, and and he
Speaker 1: would come back and speak about his experiences there, and
Speaker 1: this definitely sort of gave him a greater sense of
Speaker 1: religious authority in the eyes of his believers mhm. At
Speaker 1: the end of that year dwenteen eleven. You note that
Speaker 1: there's this and you describe, of course in your book,
Speaker 1: this confrontation between Elidor and uh Germ again and Rasputin um,
Speaker 1: and you describe it as as one of the most
Speaker 1: bizarre and mysterious events in Rasputin's life. Um. What prompted
Speaker 1: these men to dramatically turn on Respute And as you
Speaker 1: said earlier, that the that they do this and they become,
Speaker 1: as you said, blood enemies. What happened there, well, it's
Speaker 1: it's bizarre. There's there's conflicting accounts of of of what happened,
Speaker 1: but it was in St. Petersburg and Gerim again and
Speaker 1: Eliador summoned Respute into a meeting. Now it's possible that
Speaker 1: they sensed that resputants place alongside Nicholas and Alexandra was
Speaker 1: somehow weakened that the criticisms around him had reached such
Speaker 1: an extent that maybe Nicholas and Alexandra were thinking of
Speaker 1: cutting themselves free of Resputin, thus meaning there would be
Speaker 1: an opening for a similar figure. And Eleador had always
Speaker 1: hoped that he would be able to take Resputant's place
Speaker 1: alongside Nicholas and Alexandra. So they confronted Resputant and basically
Speaker 1: accused him of being the devil, of being the anti Christ. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's a bizarre you know talk that they you know,
Speaker 1: grabbed at his penis and we're gonna try to you know,
Speaker 1: lop it off u and neuter him, turn him into
Speaker 1: a eunuch on the spot, that sort of thing. That
Speaker 1: there was a fight and struggle, and they were beating
Speaker 1: him with the cross, saying out devil, out devil um.
Speaker 1: And they were trying to get him to to promise
Speaker 1: to go back to Siberia and never show his face again.
Speaker 1: They play their hand terribly, um, and in fact, it
Speaker 1: only further strengthens resputants place at court and further damages
Speaker 1: the position of of Iliador and Gerim again. And they
Speaker 1: are basically then at that point they rupture any relationship
Speaker 1: they have with Rasputin, and they then go on and
Speaker 1: basically lose their place in the church, and especially in
Speaker 1: terms of Eliodor, who denounces his faith and becomes an
Speaker 1: apostate and and leaves the leaves the church altogether. Around
Speaker 1: this time and shortly after, uh, you also note that
Speaker 1: there's there's souring relationships, uh kind of on a on
Speaker 1: a broader scale, and a number of different uh moments
Speaker 1: or or or factors of that. Uh. How significant were
Speaker 1: were things like Novoselov's pamphlet the Rasputin Dossier and Gutchakov's
Speaker 1: blow to the Alcove speech in souring the relationship between
Speaker 1: the Duma and the Czar and kind of a large scale, right.
Speaker 1: So it's you know, up until this point, really all
Speaker 1: of the information people have about Resputing is oral, it's
Speaker 1: word of mouth, it's gossip. And then in n of
Speaker 1: a journalist by the name of your Novosel publishes in
Speaker 1: the Moscow Gazette a story about Resputing as this debauched
Speaker 1: pseudo holy man who's a sex maniac and a pervert
Speaker 1: and ellegtion and a threat to society, which causes shock
Speaker 1: waves and gets repeated in magazines and newspapers throughout the country,
Speaker 1: and then of a self later tries to to publish
Speaker 1: this information in a pamphlet that is repressed, but then
Speaker 1: parts of it get leaked to the press and printed
Speaker 1: throughout And it's one of the interesting things is is
Speaker 1: there's a certain level of freedom of the press now
Speaker 1: in Russia after nineteen o five, and Nicholas is just lived.
Speaker 1: He's so angry that newspapers are publishing these things about
Speaker 1: respute and that he tries to get it to stop.
Speaker 1: But his ministers say, look, you know, after the revolution
Speaker 1: of nineteen o five, you granted freedom of the press generally,
Speaker 1: and so we simply cannot go around censoring uh newspapers
Speaker 1: and magazines. Um, we can try to confiscate them after
Speaker 1: the fact, but we can't beforehand tell them you can't
Speaker 1: write about this person. So this greatly increases the controversy
Speaker 1: around resputing and leads then to a figure a deputy
Speaker 1: and the dooma which is like the parliament um to
Speaker 1: get up in nineteen twelve um and denounce respute and
Speaker 1: by name, and to insist that the crown tell them
Speaker 1: and the country who is this respute? And figure what
Speaker 1: is the source of his power? Is he operating on
Speaker 1: his own behalf? Does he represent some cabal of of
Speaker 1: mysterious figures? Uh? And is simply working to enrich them?
Speaker 1: Who is he? What is he doing? Um? And the
Speaker 1: country needs to know? This creates an enormous scandal and
Speaker 1: and introduces a rift now between the throne and the
Speaker 1: doom and the Parliament that leaves them at logger heads
Speaker 1: and only gets worse and worse in the final five
Speaker 1: years of the life of the dynasty. Really really happy
Speaker 1: to talk with that, goes. We loved his book, and uh,
Speaker 1: we're working on the show. We're loving it. So one
Speaker 1: of the one of the things that I that that's
Speaker 1: interesting amidst the rumors that are developing around Raspute, and
Speaker 1: especially the ones that are religious based, is that he
Speaker 1: he also routine these seems like he's surprised major religious
Speaker 1: figures along the way with how just normal Orthodox he
Speaker 1: was folks like theo Fan and fa Istraumov back back
Speaker 1: home in Bishop Alexei in what ways, how how typical
Speaker 1: was Respute in terms of what an Orthodox Christian was
Speaker 1: like at that point? Well, you know, there were so
Speaker 1: many attempts to paint him as a as a heretic
Speaker 1: and uh dangerous sectarian and all that. And they're all
Speaker 1: these actual church investigations into his practices and beliefs, and
Speaker 1: even people who wanted to sort of you know, paint
Speaker 1: him in the in the in the worst of colors,
Speaker 1: were not able to do it. I mean, he he
Speaker 1: believed in the rights and the rituals. He attended UH
Speaker 1: services regularly, He followed the prayers, he followed the UH
Speaker 1: you know, the ritual and what have you. When he
Speaker 1: preached the word, when he spoke the Word of the Gospels,
Speaker 1: he literally was quoting directly from from scriptures and and
Speaker 1: so in this there wasn't in any sense that he
Speaker 1: was really perverting the message of the Church, was perverting
Speaker 1: the message of scripture. He was very much someone who
Speaker 1: UH ultimately tried to express the notion of love thy
Speaker 1: neighbor as thyself, UM and what have you. Now, of course,
Speaker 1: there's also this tension between the message his practice UH
Speaker 1: as an orthodox believer and the way he you know,
Speaker 1: treated women and something like that. And there's this huge
Speaker 1: gap and we still don't fully understand, you know, all
Speaker 1: exactly that what went on with women and there were
Speaker 1: I think attempts at times, probably frequently with him to
Speaker 1: bend scripture and teaching for his own sexual uh goals.
Speaker 1: You know, he did not come up with this saying,
Speaker 1: even though it's often attributed to him. But you know,
Speaker 1: the notion that he who does not sin uh cannot repent,
Speaker 1: and he who does not repent cannot be saved. Thus,
Speaker 1: if we give ourselves into sin, we are thus leading
Speaker 1: ourselves to repentance and redemption and and being saved. This
Speaker 1: idea did not begin with him in Russian culture, um,
Speaker 1: but it does seem fair to say that he did
Speaker 1: use it, especially when he was trying to lure some
Speaker 1: woman into his bed. M hmmm. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: a bit about Varna and the process of his elevation
Speaker 1: to bishop. How big a part in that process did
Speaker 1: Respute and play. So one of the things that happens is,
Speaker 1: you know, originally coming up, Respute and woos the clergy.
Speaker 1: They're impressed by him, uh, they're convinced of the sincerity
Speaker 1: of his religious expression. Um. But then as that all changes,
Speaker 1: he he acquires a great deal of enemies with in
Speaker 1: the higher echelons of the Russian Orthodox Church, which you
Speaker 1: need to understand is a very much bureaucratic top down
Speaker 1: basically government run uh institution, and so they start coming
Speaker 1: after Resputin. So Resputents almost starts looking around for allies, defenders,
Speaker 1: and and wants to have them put in positions of
Speaker 1: power within the Russian Orthodox Church too, if you will
Speaker 1: guard him from his his enemies, and one of those
Speaker 1: is is Varnava, who was also born at peasant like him,
Speaker 1: had no real education, but was a powerful preacher um
Speaker 1: and then sort of makes his way slowly up the church,
Speaker 1: and Resputin decides that he wants Varnava to be appointed bishop,
Speaker 1: but the bishops are strongly against it because they don't
Speaker 1: think he's worthy of the title in the position um.
Speaker 1: But the one who can ultimately push this through is
Speaker 1: the Emperor, and Resputing, you know, inveigles his way in
Speaker 1: with Alexandra Nicholas and gets Nicholas against the wishes of
Speaker 1: the body known as the Holy Synod, which is sort
Speaker 1: of the ruling body of the church, to go ahead
Speaker 1: and make Varnava a bishop, which he later becomes UM.
Speaker 1: And again this this introduces this great rift and distrust
Speaker 1: between the official church and and Nicholas, which further undermines
Speaker 1: Nicholas and his power and authority. You know that in
Speaker 1: your book one of the especially related to Rasputin's religious mystique,
Speaker 1: um And and that persona that his reported power, his
Speaker 1: reported power to heal, is one of the most salient
Speaker 1: aspects of his enduring persona. Did Rasputin ever claim that,
Speaker 1: like himself, claimed that he had the ability to heal?
Speaker 1: Or was that something that was attributed to him by
Speaker 1: others that some other that's a notion that was attributed
Speaker 1: to him um And. This was obviously one of the
Speaker 1: central questions I tried to to get at in my
Speaker 1: research for the book. He really doesn't go around saying
Speaker 1: I'm a faith healer. This is something that um arises,
Speaker 1: you know, out of his relationship with Nicholas. Now Alexandra
Speaker 1: and alex say the sun um and then get spread around.
Speaker 1: But people don't go to him necessarily to be healed
Speaker 1: of something. If if they're to be healed, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's of an emotional illness, an emotional spiritual injury. Um.
Speaker 1: That's really what sort of healing he he claimed to
Speaker 1: be able to offer to people. How important were some
Speaker 1: particular healing healings for Reciptent's relationship with the royal family
Speaker 1: partic the healing. Yeah, so that's one of the crucial
Speaker 1: moments in the relationship there. Um. It's at one of
Speaker 1: the hunting lodges and what is today modern day Poland
Speaker 1: and of Alexey goes out on a on a carriage
Speaker 1: ride and he's jostled about and this produces a bleeding episode,
Speaker 1: um in his leg and it becomes quite critical. The
Speaker 1: doctors are fussing over him. They don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: It's getting worse and worse. The boy is in excruciating pain,
Speaker 1: which is driving his parents, you know, utterly mad to
Speaker 1: see their their beloved son hurting so terribly. Um. It
Speaker 1: gets to the point where they're about to, you know,
Speaker 1: have a priest brought in for the last rites. They
Speaker 1: don't think that that alex A is going to survive.
Speaker 1: So as sort of a last ditch effort, Alexandra sends
Speaker 1: a cable telegram to Respute and who's home in Siberia, um,
Speaker 1: you know, for some sort of intercession, and he cables
Speaker 1: back and says, don't worry, your son will not die.
Speaker 1: God will take care. Do not obsess over the child
Speaker 1: and tell the doctors to leave him alone. I know
Speaker 1: that all will be well. And miraculously he was right,
Speaker 1: and he the boy was well. The boy does survive.
Speaker 1: And even the doctors were utterly confounded. They could not
Speaker 1: make sense of this. They could not explain it in
Speaker 1: the medical understanding that they had it at the time.
Speaker 1: But it's something that obviously I had to try to
Speaker 1: figure out, and others have tried to make sense of
Speaker 1: his You know, what was the relationship between rispute and
Speaker 1: and and the health of the Tzarevitch, the heir to
Speaker 1: the throne, And the way I kind of come down
Speaker 1: on it and think about it is, you know, the
Speaker 1: doctors were constantly poking and prodding um the boy when
Speaker 1: he was bleeding, which would have inhibited the clouding effect,
Speaker 1: which would have only made the bleeding worse. That's one factor.
Speaker 1: So Resputent in a sense was right by saying tell
Speaker 1: the doctors to go away and leave him alone. That
Speaker 1: was actually good medical advice for the time. And I
Speaker 1: think he also allowed Alexandra and inner calm in peace
Speaker 1: that all would be well. And I talked about this
Speaker 1: a bit in the book The Degree to which we
Speaker 1: really are only now really understanding sort of mind body wellness,
Speaker 1: and the degree to which maybe by calming Alexandra, that
Speaker 1: calm and confidence was somehow conveyed to little Alexey as well,
Speaker 1: and in some ways maybe maybe this helped aid the
Speaker 1: healing process. But it's also important to remember that that
Speaker 1: Resputent never healed or cured Alexey of hemophilia. He he
Speaker 1: was him if eliac his whole life. He died while
Speaker 1: still afflicted with hemophilia um. But it is true that
Speaker 1: he never did die of of a bleeding episode as
Speaker 1: long as Resputin was alive. And in the story, the
Speaker 1: speaking of wounds and healing respute, and of course is
Speaker 1: he's uh attacked many years before he's actually killed by
Speaker 1: Konya Guseva. Do we know much about how Nicholas and
Speaker 1: Alexandra reacted in the immediate aftermath of that attack. That
Speaker 1: was one of the more bizarre and horrific moments in
Speaker 1: the life of Rasputin when he was back home in
Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen fourteen and Pakrovskaya and a strange
Speaker 1: figure came up to him, and he thought she was
Speaker 1: seeking alms, and he went to get his coin pers
Speaker 1: out and given her some money, and she plunged a
Speaker 1: fairly lengthy dagger into his abdomen, screaming, I've killed the
Speaker 1: anti christ. Um. That he survived this attack is truly miraculous.
Speaker 1: When word reached Nicholas and Alexander, they were on the
Speaker 1: Royal yacht sailing in the Baltic Sea. And what's amazing
Speaker 1: is is we know the day that Nicholas learned of
Speaker 1: it um, but he makes no mention that he had
Speaker 1: heard this or he was concerned about it in his diary,
Speaker 1: which is truly striking. The only thing he did was
Speaker 1: a day or two later send word that the police
Speaker 1: should make every effort to keep their friend, as they
Speaker 1: called Gregory, safe from any such further attacks. But it's
Speaker 1: it is strange that they did not express a truly
Speaker 1: grievous reaction at the time we come to. You know,
Speaker 1: the clouds are moving in right over, over bizarre and
Speaker 1: over resputing at this time, and that's the that's the
Speaker 1: term that the resputent uses in his menacing cloud letter.
Speaker 1: H What effect did that letter have on on Zar Nicholas?
Speaker 1: Unfortunately it didn't have enough of an an In fact,
Speaker 1: on the Czar. The famous letter that you're talking about
Speaker 1: was written by Rispute and while he lay in hospital
Speaker 1: in the city of two Men in Siberia, recovering from
Speaker 1: the attack by Gusheva Um and he knew that Europe
Speaker 1: was fast approaching war, and he was determined to keep
Speaker 1: Russia out of the war. And he was determined two
Speaker 1: convince Nicholas not to listen to his generals and ministers
Speaker 1: who were pushing him to go to war against Austria UM.
Speaker 1: And this letter is is truly remarkable. And the fact
Speaker 1: that the letter has survived and is now in the rare,
Speaker 1: rare bookroom and what the main library at Yale University
Speaker 1: is also somehow bizarre and strange. Uh. But he he
Speaker 1: foresaw it's prophetic. He foresaw that if Russia were to
Speaker 1: go to war, that it would lead to seas of blood,
Speaker 1: millions of innocent Russian peasants killed, and bloody slaughter. And
Speaker 1: he he pled with Nicholas in the most powerful and
Speaker 1: prophetic of terms, to to not go to war. And
Speaker 1: I always think it's one of those great what if
Speaker 1: moments in the history of the twentie centuries. What if
Speaker 1: Nicholas had listened to rerispute and and and not and
Speaker 1: not agreed with his generals, how the course of history
Speaker 1: might have been different. M do you want to take
Speaker 1: a run at reading it? Let me see, dear friend.
Speaker 1: I'll say again, A menacing cloud is over Russia, lots
Speaker 1: of sorrow and grief. It's dark and there's not a
Speaker 1: ray of hope, a sea of t years immeasurable. And
Speaker 1: as to blood, what can I say? There are no
Speaker 1: words indescribable horror. I know they all want war from you,
Speaker 1: evidently not realizing that this means ruin hard is God's
Speaker 1: punishment when he takes away reason. It's the beginning of
Speaker 1: the end. You are the czarar, father of the people.
Speaker 1: Don't allow the madness to triumph and destroy themselves and
Speaker 1: the people. Yes, they'll conquer Germany, But what of Russia?
Speaker 1: If one thinks, then truly, never for all of time
Speaker 1: has one suffered like Russia, drowned in her own blood.
Speaker 1: Great will be the ruin grief without end? Gregory, I
Speaker 1: was I was just gonna ask if you could, uh
Speaker 1: comment on on Rasputen's general perspective on war, because uh,
Speaker 1: it seems like he he brought that up more than one.
Speaker 1: That's another side to respute, and that that was new
Speaker 1: to me, that didn't come out in the previous biographies
Speaker 1: that I had read as that. And in this sense again,
Speaker 1: I think you can say that he really did hearken
Speaker 1: to the to the teachings of of the gospels. Is
Speaker 1: that he was He was ultimately a man of peace.
Speaker 1: Now that does not mean he was a man of
Speaker 1: good relations with individuals, but he was never someone who
Speaker 1: called for war, called for vengeance and what have you.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, there were wars and the Balkans
Speaker 1: before World War One that led up to World War One,
Speaker 1: and he was very vocal at that time in nineteen twelve,
Speaker 1: for example, against going to to war, that war was wrong,
Speaker 1: that it went against the teachings of of the church,
Speaker 1: that it went against the message of Jesus christ um.
Speaker 1: And he was so vocal that there were a good
Speaker 1: many Russians who denounced him as some sort of traitor,
Speaker 1: that he was not a true patriot of Russia because
Speaker 1: he was counseling the czar against going to war against
Speaker 1: Russia's supposed enemies. Can you describe for us the scale
Speaker 1: of surveillance that was assigned to Rasputin in his later
Speaker 1: years from twelve on through nineteen sixteen, how many different
Speaker 1: agents were either watching him or watching out for him
Speaker 1: at any given time in that period. It is amazing
Speaker 1: the amount of resources that the Secret Police, the akarana
Speaker 1: Um and other police agencies directed towards resputing in the
Speaker 1: last you know, five or six years of his life. UM.
Speaker 1: A brief aside, I was allowed access to the police
Speaker 1: files on respute in which are kept in one of
Speaker 1: the major archives in Moscow, UM and they pulled them
Speaker 1: all out for me, and they literally measured, probably close
Speaker 1: to a meat or high thousands and thousands of pages
Speaker 1: of surveillance documents. UM. There was typically you know, dozens
Speaker 1: of agents that were tracking him at any one time.
Speaker 1: And not only were they tracking him, but they were
Speaker 1: tracking everybody that he came in contact with, and would
Speaker 1: would do investigations into his circle and his contacts and
Speaker 1: associates and what have you. And part of it was surveillance,
Speaker 1: but part of it was also after the summer of
Speaker 1: nineteen o fourteen, when he was almost murdered, supposedly they
Speaker 1: were also charged with keeping him safe from another such
Speaker 1: attempt on his life. So they're voluminous files UM of
Speaker 1: of investigations of surveillance UM and you could almost do
Speaker 1: a whole book just on on these documents, and it
Speaker 1: would probably make for some fascinating insights. You know that
Speaker 1: one of the UM one of one of the most
Speaker 1: UH incredible one often retold in incredible stories about Resciput,
Speaker 1: and is this this incident at the Yar, as it's called,
Speaker 1: but that it probably didn't happen the way that it's
Speaker 1: often been told. Can you walk us through that what
Speaker 1: like what actually is likely to have to have happened
Speaker 1: at the Yard restaurant and how some such different versions
Speaker 1: of it have been have come down to us right
Speaker 1: what they The so called incident at the Yar is
Speaker 1: one of the iconic UH moments in the biography of Respute,
Speaker 1: and it's in every book on him UM and it's
Speaker 1: sometimes told in in somewhat different versions, but basically the
Speaker 1: the standard story is that UH in March of nineteen fifteen,
Speaker 1: Rescipute and took the train from uh Petrograd as Petersburg
Speaker 1: was now called, down to Moscow, where you met with
Speaker 1: some friends and one night they went out to this
Speaker 1: famous restaurant called the Jar, which had this uh gypsy
Speaker 1: choir and chorus and everything that he got outlandishly drunk,
Speaker 1: he started chasing the girls in the gypsy choir. Um,
Speaker 1: he started being rude and vulgar. Uh, and then it
Speaker 1: sort of culminated in him jumping up on the table,
Speaker 1: exposing himself, dropping his trousers, waiving his member around and
Speaker 1: and claiming in front of the astonished guests at the
Speaker 1: R restaurant that this was the altar at which the
Speaker 1: Empress worshiped, at which point the police were called and
Speaker 1: they dragged him, snarling and screaming and cursing out and
Speaker 1: put him into jail. Now this is the standard story
Speaker 1: that you'll read over and over and over. Uh. Some
Speaker 1: more recent defenders of resputing in Russia have claimed that
Speaker 1: the story is a lie, that Resputant was never there,
Speaker 1: and that that effect this was a double anger, a
Speaker 1: body double that resputants enemies had sent into the R
Speaker 1: restaurant to try to destroy him. Um. So I was
Speaker 1: obviously desperate to try to get to the bottom of
Speaker 1: the story when I was doing my research, and it
Speaker 1: was in fact in the police files in this archive
Speaker 1: in Moscow that I found the clues to sort of
Speaker 1: unlocking this riddle. Uh, once and for all. All of
Speaker 1: it is there in black and white, all of the
Speaker 1: surveillance reports. And indeed agents tracked Respute and from Petrograd
Speaker 1: to Moscow on the train in March. They followed him
Speaker 1: around literally by the minute. And indeed he did go
Speaker 1: to the r restaurant. But what's interesting is you read
Speaker 1: the policeman's report of what happened there. There was no
Speaker 1: talk of drunkenness. There's no talk of chasing chorus girls,
Speaker 1: gypsy chorus girls. There's no talk of you know, dropping
Speaker 1: his trousers and and waving his member around, and there's
Speaker 1: no talk of any arrest. In fact, they had dinner.
Speaker 1: He went back to someone's house. Uh. He did get
Speaker 1: drunk the next day and drove around with some friends,
Speaker 1: and then the agents followed him back to the train
Speaker 1: station and he went back to Petrograd. End of story.
Speaker 1: So the police send this report back to Petrograd, where
Speaker 1: it's read by the head of the Akarana, a man
Speaker 1: named Vladimir Junkowski, who is the devout, sworn enemy of
Speaker 1: Resputin and is convinced that he is going to bring
Speaker 1: him down where others have failed. So he writes back
Speaker 1: to the chief of police and Moscow and says, yes,
Speaker 1: I've seen this report from the yard. Clearly this is
Speaker 1: a mistake. I'm sure something else must be missing and
Speaker 1: must have happened now in between the lines. The police
Speaker 1: in Moscow know what is being asked of them, and
Speaker 1: so you can see them start to generate after the
Speaker 1: fact new documents that purport all sorts of bizarre and
Speaker 1: disturbing elements that supposedly happened in the our restaurant, and
Speaker 1: they send these to you, to Junkovski and Petrograd, and
Speaker 1: he says, I still don't think you have the full story,
Speaker 1: and so they literally you know, quote unquote sex it up,
Speaker 1: if you will, to make it more outlandish and add
Speaker 1: all sorts of crazy elements to it, not only sexual stuff,
Speaker 1: but in fact that he was, you know, meeting with
Speaker 1: various uh shady uh figures who are involved in in
Speaker 1: vast graft and corruption schemes to defraud you know, the
Speaker 1: the National treasury of all sorts of millions and millions
Speaker 1: of rubles and what have you. And so finally they
Speaker 1: create this outlandish story on official police letterhead the Chinkwowski
Speaker 1: satisfied and then takes it to Nicholas, and Uh says,
Speaker 1: with faux sincerity, of how difficult it is for him
Speaker 1: to have to open the eyes of Nicholas to this
Speaker 1: horrible incident that had happened, But it is his duty
Speaker 1: as a servant of the Czar that he speaks the
Speaker 1: truth Uh, and presents these fake documents to to Nicholas.
Speaker 1: He shows them to Alexandra, and Alexandra says, this is
Speaker 1: this is total nonsense. And here Alexandra was right, this
Speaker 1: is a pack of lies, and I refuse to believe it. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so it again is then taken as proof that
Speaker 1: nothing can damage Resputing in the eyes of Nicholas and Alexandra,
Speaker 1: and he can go to any lengths he he wishes,
Speaker 1: and his place is secure. But in fact, he really
Speaker 1: never did anything wrong that night at the r restaurant.
Speaker 1: So there are lots of other rumors about Resputing at
Speaker 1: the time, especially about him being a spy, that crop
Speaker 1: up with the beginning of the second of the First
Speaker 1: World War. Can you tell us about what some of
Speaker 1: those rumors about Resputing the spy were? Well, it's interesting
Speaker 1: again you know, whatever, uh, the concerns of the day
Speaker 1: happened to be. Everyone wants to sort of trace the
Speaker 1: origin inspect to to respute and if before it was
Speaker 1: religious perversion and the downfall of morality, while it's got
Speaker 1: to be Resputants fault. Once the war gets going in
Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen, not only gets going, but gets going badly
Speaker 1: for Russia and they are not doing well in the
Speaker 1: war against German Austria, well then clearly who's to blame.
Speaker 1: And instead of, you know, looking to the obvious sources
Speaker 1: there there arises this idea and society that, aha, there
Speaker 1: must be traders in our midst who are selling out
Speaker 1: the country, selling out our war secrets and what have you,
Speaker 1: And they trace it all back to Resputing and to Alexandra. Alexandra,
Speaker 1: as you recall, is German by birth, um is extremely
Speaker 1: unpopular in Russia and many are convinced that she is
Speaker 1: given her nationality selling out Russia, that she's a trader
Speaker 1: to Russia, she's defending Germany, and that she's doing this
Speaker 1: together with Resputin, that the two of them are line
Speaker 1: together to to sell out Russia, that they are part
Speaker 1: of what become known as the quote unquote dark forces
Speaker 1: at work trying to undermine the Russian war effort. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I think often pops up in
Speaker 1: that regard, or a misconception perhaps, is that Respute and
Speaker 1: Alexandria were kind of Alexandra were kind of scheming to
Speaker 1: get Nicholas out of the capitol eventually when he goes
Speaker 1: off to the stavka Um. Is there any truth to
Speaker 1: that that they were trying to get him to leave
Speaker 1: to consolidate their own power, or is there they're more
Speaker 1: going now And in fact it's it's just the opposite
Speaker 1: dynamic that's that's going on, which is again one of
Speaker 1: the falsehoods that's sort of percolated through all the history
Speaker 1: about Respute. And is that exactly that that Nicholas um
Speaker 1: is purposely sent away to the supreme headquarters of the
Speaker 1: army known in in Russian astafka Um, so that Resputin
Speaker 1: and Alexandra, with Nicholas away, can seize the reins of
Speaker 1: government um and basically run the country at the same
Speaker 1: time as they work as traders to sell the country
Speaker 1: out to the Germans. In fact, it was just the opposite.
Speaker 1: They did not want Nicholas to go off to headquarters
Speaker 1: because they knew how impressionable he was, and that they
Speaker 1: knew that um, if Nicholas is going to be surrounded
Speaker 1: by his generals, he will do what they tell him
Speaker 1: to do. And they want him near them because they
Speaker 1: feel that their advice, their guidance and counsel is what
Speaker 1: should matter, and so they desperately want him to stay
Speaker 1: at the palace and not go off to headquarters. So
Speaker 1: it's in fact the opposite of what the long held
Speaker 1: view was. By nineteen fifteen nineteen sixteen, how heavily did
Speaker 1: raspute and figure, whether directly or indirectly, in a kind
Speaker 1: of a breakneck uh speed of ministerial sackings and appointments
Speaker 1: in the government. Maybe that would reinforce that idea about
Speaker 1: um Resputen and Alexander kind of pulling strings and that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Well, there is by the last couple
Speaker 1: of years of the of the dynasty, this this phenomenon
Speaker 1: that becomes known as ministerial leap frog, where basically like
Speaker 1: one prime minister is being sacked a new one hired
Speaker 1: every other month. There's a there's a new head of
Speaker 1: the police, there's changes at the upper echelons, of the
Speaker 1: military and other UM posts in the government, Minister of
Speaker 1: Interior and what have you. UM, And everyone starts to
Speaker 1: assume that all of this is being done at the
Speaker 1: behest of resputing Um. It's more complicated than that, But
Speaker 1: it is true that by by those latter years risk
Speaker 1: Sputin is exercising more influence on ministerial appointments, has more
Speaker 1: opinion about these things, and Alexandra listens to him and
Speaker 1: tries to lean on Nicholas to make some of these changes.
Speaker 1: But what's important to remember is that part of the
Speaker 1: reason Resputint is doing this is he is very much
Speaker 1: fearful for his life. There have been several attempted assassination
Speaker 1: assassinations of resputing Um, and he is terrified that the
Speaker 1: people uh In charged with keeping him safe are in
Speaker 1: fact the ones that want him dead, and so he
Speaker 1: is very much UM leaning on Alexandra to make sure
Speaker 1: that the people they hire to be, for example, the
Speaker 1: head of the police or the Ministry of the Interior
Speaker 1: are in fact allies of his and not not enemies
Speaker 1: just waiting to do him in. You mentioned that there
Speaker 1: had been several attempts on his Resputin's life, Um, one
Speaker 1: of them came about from UH members of that he
Speaker 1: was into this kind of political troika with can you
Speaker 1: can you describe some of the outlines of that of
Speaker 1: that murder attempt? Right, So, there were several um plots
Speaker 1: and assassinations that were attempting to get against Respute in
Speaker 1: his lifetime. And one of the more bizarre UH was
Speaker 1: put together by the sort of the so called troika,
Speaker 1: the threesome, at the head of which was the Minister
Speaker 1: of Interior, man named Huastof, who in fact got the
Speaker 1: job as Minister UH claiming to be a defender of
Speaker 1: resputing and an ally of Resputin. But he very quickly
Speaker 1: then shifts to the other side to the competing camp
Speaker 1: and starts trying to dream up ways to to do
Speaker 1: in Resputin. He he plots to have him put on
Speaker 1: a train and sent off outside capital and then someone
Speaker 1: was going to come and pick him up and throw
Speaker 1: him off a speeding train. Um. There's attempts to put
Speaker 1: together a bottle of poison wine that he will drink
Speaker 1: and die um. And then together with a couple of others,
Speaker 1: he comes up with trying to lure iliad Or, who
Speaker 1: by this time has fled Russia for Norway to pay
Speaker 1: iliad Or sixty thou rubles if iliad Or could get
Speaker 1: some of his allies who are still in Russia to
Speaker 1: shoot and kill Resputing. Now this plotting gets very complex,
Speaker 1: and I go through it all in great detail in
Speaker 1: the book. It's really fascinating. It's like a bizarre sort
Speaker 1: of crime story. But it all comes to light before
Speaker 1: it can happen, and Huastov claims that no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I was never trying to kill Resputin. I was trying
Speaker 1: to out a plot to kill Rasputin. But in the
Speaker 1: end of the whole thing blows up in his face.
Speaker 1: But it it offers further proof to to Alexander and
Speaker 1: Resputing that even the people that they hire in place
Speaker 1: in positions of power to keep Resputing safe are in
Speaker 1: fact snakes in the grass who want him killed, which
Speaker 1: heightens the sense of of paranoia that is seeping through
Speaker 1: the court and Resputent's life in these final few years.
Speaker 1: You trace what you call resputens apotheosis to his interaction
Speaker 1: with Petrograd Governor General Obolensky in nine Can you describe
Speaker 1: that interaction and what it implies concerning like the level
Speaker 1: of power to which Resputin had actually ascended at that point, right.
Speaker 1: So I call it the pathiosis because it seems to
Speaker 1: me that this interaction that he has with with Abelnski
Speaker 1: at the time signified just the degree to which he
Speaker 1: had gone in being able to manipulate uh, Nicholas and
Speaker 1: Alexandro when he felt it was necessary. Abeliansky, Prince. Abeliansky
Speaker 1: came from one of the great aristocratic families of Russia. Um.
Speaker 1: These were the families that basically were the pillars of
Speaker 1: the Romanov dynasty. These were the families that literally ruled
Speaker 1: the country alongside the Romanovs, great wealth, great power, UH
Speaker 1: and prestige, the kind of people who never would have
Speaker 1: allowed a peasant into their into their office or room
Speaker 1: or palace. And Rasputin felt that that Abelynsky was not
Speaker 1: doing his job. In part, he felt that Abelianski was
Speaker 1: not doing a good enough job to make sure there
Speaker 1: was a steady UH supply of food being brought to
Speaker 1: the capital. And in this Resputent was was was correct
Speaker 1: and and onto something. So he he went to Aboliansky
Speaker 1: um and you know, upbraided him for not doing his job.
Speaker 1: And Abolanski became very obsequious and basically threw himself at
Speaker 1: the mercy of respute and you know, insisting that you
Speaker 1: know he had done everything that Resputin had ever wanted.
Speaker 1: He pulled out letters, uh that Resputent had sent him
Speaker 1: request various favors and what he han't said, I've always
Speaker 1: followed these to the law, and whatever you wanted, I've
Speaker 1: given you. Um. But the fact that he could speak
Speaker 1: this way to someone like Abeliansky, upbraid him and criticize
Speaker 1: him and then basically lead to Abeliansky's downfall a few
Speaker 1: months later shows just uh, in my opinion, the ultimate
Speaker 1: pinnacle of power that that he had reached by early
Speaker 1: nineteen sixteen. Can you describe for us Felix Yusupov's character
Speaker 1: and personality and what his his family and upbringing were
Speaker 1: lie So, Prince Felix u super was a member of
Speaker 1: one of the great aristocratic families of Russia UH centuries
Speaker 1: of extreme wealth and power and prestige UM one of
Speaker 1: the truly one of the richest most powerful families in Russia. UM.
Speaker 1: His parents had had doated on his older brother who
Speaker 1: was killed in a duel, and then all of their
Speaker 1: attention and devotion, especially from his mother, Princess Zinaida, were
Speaker 1: showered upon Felix. He was doated on, he was spoiled. Um,
Speaker 1: he was indulged. Uh. He was you know, sort of
Speaker 1: the worst, I would say, examples of the of debauched
Speaker 1: aristocracy in the early part of the twenty century. Nothing
Speaker 1: was expected of him. It was a life of glamor,
Speaker 1: of Champagne. Of uh, he was a notorious um. Uh.
Speaker 1: What should I say, boy about society if you will?
Speaker 1: At the time, who really had no purpose in life
Speaker 1: until he decides that he is going to save Russia
Speaker 1: by killing Respute and putting together a plot to do
Speaker 1: him in, And this becomes, if you will, his e
Speaker 1: day fixed, this becomes his raised on Detra, and he
Speaker 1: devotes all of his energies and times to figuring out
Speaker 1: how he's going to do away with Resputing. One of
Speaker 1: the challenges of knowing what happens, and you describe this,
Speaker 1: is that the accounts we have of Resputin's eventual murder
Speaker 1: come to us from the people involved in the deed. Um.
Speaker 1: What sort of picture of Rasputin does your soup of
Speaker 1: paint in his account of the assassination plot? How trustworthy
Speaker 1: is he has a source for information concerning Resputin or
Speaker 1: the murder. That kind of thing. Well, that's what struck
Speaker 1: me Um working on the book, is that for so
Speaker 1: long our image of Resputing as a person, his life
Speaker 1: and experiences, and especially as death comes from books that
Speaker 1: were written not just by his enemies, people like Eliador,
Speaker 1: but from the man who murdered him in cold blood,
Speaker 1: from your soup of Um. So much of the myth
Speaker 1: of risputants murder, which is something that everybody seems to
Speaker 1: know in some sort of detail, comes from your soup
Speaker 1: as memoirs, Um. And I always found it odd that
Speaker 1: we had taken the words of a cold blooded killer
Speaker 1: at face value and never questioned them for what they
Speaker 1: really were. Um. You sup As memoirs are sort of
Speaker 1: network of lies, the tissue of have truths and and
Speaker 1: and an attempt to bade himself in glory, if you will,
Speaker 1: for a truly horrible deed. Like the only moment I
Speaker 1: think in his memoirs when he's ever really being honest
Speaker 1: is when you super frights that that killing Rasputin was
Speaker 1: quote unquote a cowardly crime, for that is what it was, Um.
Speaker 1: He depicts himself. He super does as like sort of
Speaker 1: Saint Michael slaying the dragon. He depicts Rasputin as a
Speaker 1: man that was impossible to kill um, that he had
Speaker 1: sort of superhuman power in him, that he was Satan himself.
Speaker 1: And in fact, in the various versions of the memoirs
Speaker 1: that you super frights he and each one exaggerates the
Speaker 1: impossibility of killing Rasputin with each retelling of the tale
Speaker 1: that you know they beat him, they poisoned him, uh,
Speaker 1: they shoot him, he refuses to die, that they dump
Speaker 1: him in a hole in an icy branch of the
Speaker 1: Nyeva river, and even then he still breathes his last
Speaker 1: and tries to make the sign of the crossed, and
Speaker 1: eventually only dies of drowning. I mean, this is all
Speaker 1: just a pack of lies that you soup of told
Speaker 1: to make himself feel better, to aggrandize himself, and quite frankly,
Speaker 1: to earn money, because he was now living in in
Speaker 1: exile after the revolution in Europe, and it had no
Speaker 1: way to make a living other than to keep retelling
Speaker 1: the story of how he had killed Resputin Um. An
Speaker 1: ultimate fact, there was probably never any poison um, And
Speaker 1: in point of fact, we know from photographs uh taken
Speaker 1: at the autopsy of Resputin's body after it was pulled
Speaker 1: from the ice, that he was shot three times at
Speaker 1: close range, twice in the torso, and a third and
Speaker 1: final time at point blank rage, right into the middle
Speaker 1: of his forehead. Resputin was more than dead when they
Speaker 1: finally dumped his body into the icy river. One of
Speaker 1: the one of the theories that has been floated. I
Speaker 1: had never heard this before until reading your book, that
Speaker 1: anybody had ever floated this was uh Um, that the
Speaker 1: murder of Resputant was in some way orchestrated or planned
Speaker 1: by the British government. Uh how is how is there
Speaker 1: any credence to that idea? This notion that the English
Speaker 1: were involved has an old history, and in fact actually
Speaker 1: first sort of bubble up to the surface right in
Speaker 1: the first days after the murder, that um, British intelligence
Speaker 1: agents were in some way connected to the killing of Resputing.
Speaker 1: Part of the story goes back to the idea discredited
Speaker 1: false notion but that was widely believed at the time,
Speaker 1: was again that Resputing was a spy, that Resputent and
Speaker 1: Alexandra were basically working with the German government, and we're
Speaker 1: trying to get Russia to leave the war um and
Speaker 1: and conclude a separate piece Germany. Now, obviously the English
Speaker 1: were very much worried about Russia leaving the war because
Speaker 1: they needed Russia to maintain an eastern front in the
Speaker 1: battle against Germany. And so the theory goes was that
Speaker 1: British agents killed Resputant as a way to prevent some
Speaker 1: sort of peace treaty between Russia and Germany. Now, there's
Speaker 1: no truth in any of this, and there's no reality
Speaker 1: that this ever happened, um, But there have been been
Speaker 1: books written about it, there have been documentaries made about it,
Speaker 1: and there's even been this theory put forward that if
Speaker 1: you look at the the bullet hole in resputants head,
Speaker 1: that the markings around the whole proved that it was
Speaker 1: a bullet fired by a British gun, by an endfield
Speaker 1: UH pistol, and that this means that whoever fired the
Speaker 1: fatal shot was a British agent. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: you know the whole Trader secret peace treaty is nonsense.
Speaker 1: Second of all, the idea that you can read what
Speaker 1: kind of gun killed Respute and based on the markings
Speaker 1: in his forehead is just not really supported by the facts.
Speaker 1: And third, something I found in the police files in Moscow,
Speaker 1: which was truly enlightening for me, was that not only
Speaker 1: did British officers use end field pistols during World War Two,
Speaker 1: but so did Russian officers. They were also using them
Speaker 1: as a side arm during World War One. And in fact,
Speaker 1: one or more of the agents in the Ahran of
Speaker 1: the Secret Police who were tasked with guarding Resputin had
Speaker 1: been issued and field uh pistols as side arms. So
Speaker 1: even if it was an Endfield that fired the fatal shot,
Speaker 1: we don't know who was holding that gun. UM. I
Speaker 1: won't go into more detail. I try to unpack all
Speaker 1: of this in the book. UM. I think the British
Speaker 1: probably wanted respute and dead, UM, but I don't think
Speaker 1: there's anything to really conclusively prove that they were in
Speaker 1: any way involved in the killing. So just a few
Speaker 1: more questions to wrap us up. UM. After Gregory was killed,
Speaker 1: his daughter Maria found another letter among his belongings, another
Speaker 1: letter that we could call prophetic. UM. Would you want
Speaker 1: to read that for us, my dear, A disaster is
Speaker 1: threatening us, A great misfortune is drawing near the face
Speaker 1: of our lady has darkened, and the spirit is disturbed
Speaker 1: in the calm of the night. This calm will not last.
Speaker 1: Terrible will be the wrath. And whether shall we flee?
Speaker 1: Start over? And whither shall we flee? It is written,
Speaker 1: Watch for ye know neither the day nor the hour.
Speaker 1: This day has come for our country. There will be
Speaker 1: cries and blood. In the great darkness of these griefs.
Speaker 1: I can now distinguish nothing. My hour will soon strike.
Speaker 1: I am not afraid, but I know it will be bitter.
Speaker 1: I shall suffer, and it will be pardoned to men.
Speaker 1: I shall inherit the kingdom, But you will be saved.
Speaker 1: The road of your sufferings is known to God. Men
Speaker 1: without number will perish, Many martyrs will die, Brothers will
Speaker 1: be slain by their brothers. The earth will tremble, famine
Speaker 1: and pestilence will reign. Signs will appear to men. Pray
Speaker 1: for your salvation, and through the grace of the Savior,
Speaker 1: and have her who intercedes with him, you will be consoled. Gregory,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Yeah. Just so. Of course, the
Speaker 1: question that that everybody probably asks at some point, uh
Speaker 1: to what extent uh in in uh to what extent?
Speaker 1: Was respute and responsible for the fall of the Romanovs
Speaker 1: and the imperial and imperial Russia. Well, I came away
Speaker 1: after six years of research and writing and thinking about
Speaker 1: Respute and um, you know, seeing him as this great scapecoat,
Speaker 1: sort of one of the great scapegoats of history. And
Speaker 1: it's not to deny his faults. It's to not to
Speaker 1: deny him of responsibility for things that he did to
Speaker 1: further the demise of the of the autocracy. Um. But
Speaker 1: everyone wants to put it all on his shoulders. Um.
Speaker 1: It was. It was strange to just read account after
Speaker 1: account after account um of people who were part of
Speaker 1: Russia at the time, in the government, meant, in the army,
Speaker 1: at court, and they all want to place it on
Speaker 1: resputing shoulders, as if as if it hadn't been resputing,
Speaker 1: none of this would have happened. There would have been
Speaker 1: no war, there would have been no revolution, there would
Speaker 1: have been no downfall of the dynasty. And that's so
Speaker 1: utterly simplistic and incorrect that I hope, if nothing else
Speaker 1: I can, I can move us off of this simplistic
Speaker 1: way of thinking about him and his role, uh and
Speaker 1: his place in history. That's great. Our last question would
Speaker 1: have been, what do you hope that listeners and readers
Speaker 1: every book will take away? But I think you've just
Speaker 1: answered that. Um. So, Douglas, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us on Unobscured Sam. Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: This has been amazing to be able to chat with
Speaker 1: you after reading your book. It's this is a great
Speaker 1: great thanks for the opportunity to talk. Um. It's uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he's one of these figures that I think
Speaker 1: will always hold out great fascination for us. Um And
Speaker 1: I've you know, devoted all these years trying to plumb
Speaker 1: his depths, and I took it as far as I
Speaker 1: could go, but I don't think we'll ever really get
Speaker 1: to the deep dark bottom of it all. But it's
Speaker 1: it's fascinating to explore, to think about, discuss, and um,
Speaker 1: it's been great having the opportunity to talk with you. Great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. Well, we don't want yeah, we don't want
Speaker 1: to take any more time than you than you have,
Speaker 1: so um, yeah, you just you have our gratitude and uh,
Speaker 1: thanks for the book, Thanks for the talk. Thanks, let
Speaker 1: me know when it comes together. I look forward to hearing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We'll keep you in the loop and Zack, thanks again
Speaker 1: for your work, Thanks for doing the recording on that side.
Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode of Unobscured. Stick around
Speaker 1: after this short sponsor break for a preview of what's
Speaker 1: in store for next week. And then there's a period
Speaker 1: of disillusionment with the people and disillusionment with the results
Speaker 1: of that revolution of nineteen o five, and many intellectuals
Speaker 1: who had been Marxists or liberals begin to but especially Marxists,
Speaker 1: begin to turn away from from materialism and they are
Speaker 1: drawn to to idealism. They're drawn to religion. They are
Speaker 1: frustrated with the political world, and they they look for
Speaker 1: other other forms of of meaning and identity and so
Speaker 1: on as the as the political situation becomes less and
Speaker 1: less free. After nineteen o six nine seven. Unobscured was
Speaker 1: created by me Aaron Manky and produced by Matt Frederick,
Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Josh Thane in partner ship with I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, with research by Sam Alberty, writing by Carl Nellis,
Speaker 1: and original music by Chad Lawson. Learn more about our
Speaker 1: contributing historians, source materials, and links to our other shows
Speaker 1: over at grim and Mild dot com. Slash unobscured and
Speaker 1: as always, thanks for listening. Four