1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: We begin the interview series for Unobscured Season four with 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: Dr Douglas Smith. Dr Smith is the author of Rasputin, Faith, Power, 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: and the Twilight of the Romanovs, just one of six 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: books he has published on Russia. Douglas is an award 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: winning historian and his writing has been published into more 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: than a dozen languages. Anyone who has researched the life 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: of Grigory Rasputin knows just how difficult it can be 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: to separate the man from the myth. As you'll know 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: well from this season of Unobscured, Dr Smith's work has 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: become an essential guide to that difficult task. His original 12 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: research set a new standard of understanding the Siberian mystic, 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: from his early life to the details of his murder 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: and the importance of his legacy. Both the man and 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: the myth matter, and there's no one better for walking 16 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: through the details than Douglas Smith. Since his book was published, 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: its reach has grown year by year, and so has 18 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: the respect he earns for experts and curious readers alike. 19 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: Were delighted to have his perspective on Unobscured researcher Sam 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Alberty and writer Carl Nellis talked to Douglas about the 21 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: revelations that came from taking a new look at Rasputin. 22 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to share this conversation with all of you. 23 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: This is the Unobscured Interview series for season four. I'm 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: Aaron Manky for Unobscured Podcast. I'm Carl Nellis, and I'm 25 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: here with my co producer Sam Alberty. Today we're talking 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: with Dr Douglas Smith, an award winning historian and translator. 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: Douglas Smith is the author of six books on Russia. 28 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: It's a privilege to have him join us. Uh. Douglas, 29 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: welcome to an Obscured Podcast. Thanks for having me. Um 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: So your book on Rasputin, Rasputin, Faith, Power and the 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: Twilight of the Romanovs. It's a landmark study in Gregory 32 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: Rasputin's life and his influence. And as I've just mentioned, 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: you've written a lot on Russia. What what brought you 34 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: to such an important project, uh, and one that focused 35 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: on Rasputin in particular. Well, I had never really planned 36 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: to write a book about Rasputin and to spend like 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: six years of my life full time doing it. Um 38 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: I wrote a book before this, called Former People, which 39 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: told the story of what happened to the Russian nobility, 40 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: the Russian one percent, if you will, following the revolutions 41 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventeen with the collapse of the Romanov dynasty 42 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: and then Lennon and the Bolshevik seizure of power at 43 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 1: the end of the year. Um and I was fascinated 44 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: by the story. You know, in the United States we 45 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: always love to hear about, you know, rags to riches. Well, 46 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: the story of the nobility was the ultimate story of 47 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: riches to rags. And while I was researching that book, 48 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: I had to dig deep into the final years of 49 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: the Romanov dynasty, so the first years of the twenty century, 50 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: and in every source I seemed to poke my nose into, 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: there was the specter of of respute and hanging hanging 52 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: around in the background. And so I became more and 53 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: more curious about them. Simply as a result of that 54 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: that previous research. Um and Uh as a figure, as 55 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: a character, as a as a as a myth and 56 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: a legend, he began to attract my attention. Um And 57 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: then also purely for sort of um marketing purposes. I 58 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: realized this was about that we were going to be 59 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: coming up on the centenary of the murder of Resputing 60 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: in sixteen and then the centenary of the Russian Revolution 61 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: UM and publishers do love these big hundred year retrospective 62 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: type publishing opportunities. So I thought, well, this is a 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: perfect time to uh to revisit uh and try to 64 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: really better understand this amazingly important character. Douglas sam here 65 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: speaking of the of the sources in that um in 66 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: this work. One of the things that was so illuminating 67 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: to me through as I was reading your book is 68 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: how complicated the just trying to trace out the history 69 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: of that is, even as he looms uh so ever 70 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: presently in the background, UM, can you describe your work 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: a little bit and analyzing the sources that have formed 72 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: the traditional history of the Rasputin myth and some of 73 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: the what has made it, what makes it so difficult 74 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: to dig into, like a a kind of unblemished history 75 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: of Rasputin. Yeah. Well, you know, when I decided I 76 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: want to do to the book, UM, I I told 77 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: myself that I wasn't going to go down to the 78 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: university library and pull out the last fifteen biographies of 79 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: resputing and take notes and sort of regurgitated all which 80 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: is kind of what has happened for a long time now, 81 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: So you get the same myths and stories and distortions 82 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: and lies and airs told and retold and retold. Um 83 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: So I set myself the task of really digging into 84 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: the archives and going back to the original sources, the 85 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: original letters and documents and memoirs and police reports and 86 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: and things like that, which basically no one has really done. 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: Not necessarily their fault, but for most of the Soviet 88 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: period documents on respute and were not available. It was 89 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: sort of a taboo subject. You just couldn't study it 90 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: in depth. Um So I came along at a good 91 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: time when a lot of this stuff that for decades 92 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: no one had been allowed to see, I was given 93 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: access to. So I spent years in archives across Russia 94 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: and Moscow and Petersburg, but also out in Siberia where 95 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: he was from places like to Bullskin to mien Um. 96 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: And then I also was really interested in in finding out, 97 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, what might be available about him outside of Russia. 98 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: So I was to Paris and Berlin, to Vienna, London, 99 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: Oxford UM, the Hoover Institution at Stanford. So I really 100 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 1: ransacked the archives and was able to dig up tons 101 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: of of amazing original source material that had escaped the 102 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: attention of historians before. And in so doing too, I 103 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: think dispel with a lot of the myth and and 104 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: conjecture and air, and I hope create a much more 105 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: realistic portrayal of this person. That's great. That really comes 106 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: through to us of course, to the readers of your book, 107 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: and we hope that people who listened to to our 108 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: program will go and read your book because your researches 109 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: is amazing. Let's let's go back to some of what 110 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: you found. You mentioned Siberia there before your work. As 111 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: you say, much of what we you know, quote, knew 112 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: of Recputan's life in Siberia prior to his coming to 113 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: the capital and rising to prominence. It was a mystery. 114 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: So maybe for recipients early life, what did you discover 115 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: when you did that work, Well, that's that was one 116 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: of the real challenges is basically the first thirty years 117 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: or so of his life or a giant black hole 118 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: for which we have very little reliable information and in 119 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: a way that lack of information, lack of documentation has 120 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: allowed UM people to create all sorts of lies and 121 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: stories about the young Resputin. There was nothing to refute 122 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: those stories pretty much, and so it was sort of 123 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: an open book. You could write as you saw fit, 124 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: and so people tended to talk about him as this, 125 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, horse thieve, this, reprobate this, UM, you know, 126 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: hooligan if you will, UM. And I decided that, okay, 127 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: there's got to be something in the archives out in 128 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: Siberia that will dispel these stories or prove them to 129 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: be true. You know, I was open to whatever I 130 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: might find. And so one of the things that was 131 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: interesting is UM into bolsk Uh in Siberia, which has 132 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: a fairly good sized archive and has information on Resputing 133 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: that no one had really seen before. I was able 134 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: to dispel once and for all the story that he 135 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: had been a horse thief in his youth, which is 136 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: one of these things that gets repeated over and over 137 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: and over. But I did find uh some information that 138 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: had escaped previous historians, which was a a small notice 139 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: in a document that recorded UH arrests and UM brief jailings, 140 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: if you will, of people in the village of Pakrovskaya, 141 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: which is where he was from, not far from to 142 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: bullsk and as a teenager, young Grigory Resiput and had 143 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: in fact been thrown as my dad would say, thrown 144 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: in the uscal uh put In the local pen, the 145 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: local jail for a couple of days for using abusive 146 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: language towards the local mayor. Now, this was kind of 147 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: an interesting discovery, um in that it does give us 148 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: like one of the few little kernels of real factual 149 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: information about his youth, and it does, in my reading 150 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: of it, suggests that he was sort of a ruffian um, 151 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: a little bit of a rebel, a little bit of 152 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: a troublemaker, even as a young person. So that was 153 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: one of the few things that I found that would 154 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: add to the story. But chiefly what I found there 155 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: was the lack of evidence, uh to dispel so many 156 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: of the false stories. One of the things that that 157 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: you point out, especially in the beginning of your book, 158 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: and seems to be a theme that comes out, is 159 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: that Rasputin's background, just being from Siberia is something that 160 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: really follows him and plays plays into his relationships even 161 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: in the capital Um. And it seems like Raspute, or 162 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: that Siberia rather occupies the kind of a complicated place 163 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: in in broader in the broader identity of Russia. Can 164 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: you describe some of the general contours of the place 165 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: of of Siberia and cybera Arians within Russian identity and consciousness, 166 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: especially kind of as they're seen in as they would 167 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: have been seen in like European Russia, or well, obviously 168 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: for for so much of the world, I mean, Siberia 169 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: conjures up all sorts of uh, exotic notions if you will, 170 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, bears walking down the street, and the vastness 171 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: of the place, it's extremes of of temperature um and 172 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: the fact that so for so much of Russian history 173 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: Siberia has been a dumping ground for for criminals and 174 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: political prisoners. It's, you know, this vast space of that 175 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: was some sort of you know, enormous um ice clad jail, 176 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: if you will, for for for centuries um. And while 177 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: there is obviously a great deal of truth to that um, 178 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: Siberia is a more complicated place than one might originally think. 179 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: And it was also um a place of freedom, which 180 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: seems somewhat contradictory, but One of the things that distinguishes Siberia, 181 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: which is that area east of the euro Mountains that 182 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: divides Europe from Asia in that part of the world, 183 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: is that there was never any serfdom in Siberia. Now, 184 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: serfdom was basically a form of slavery, if you will, 185 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: that existed in the European part of Russia. Um, much 186 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: of much of the Russian populace under the Tsars were 187 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: serfs um, which by sort of the beginning of the 188 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: nineteenth century really was not all that different in many 189 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: ways from American slavery. Serfs could be bought and sold, 190 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: they could be abused, uh and were abused, work to 191 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: the bone, and what have you. Well, the peasants of 192 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: Siberia were not owned, they didn't have landlords, they didn't 193 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: have masters, and so they they had a more independent 194 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: kind of spirit than the serfs in European Russia. And 195 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: I think this was central to understanding Resputing and who 196 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: he was. He had never been a surf, he had 197 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 1: never been owned. He was born a peasant, but a 198 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: free peasant. And I think this is an important aspect 199 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: of his biography and background that um explains part of 200 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: how he managed to do what he do. It's hard 201 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: to conceive of a Russian serf um growing up in 202 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: such a harsh type of a system, displaying the level 203 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: of of independence and freedom of spirit that resputant had 204 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: mm hm. And you note that in that early period 205 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: of his life he becomes a pilgrim, and that the 206 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: themes that you were able to discern from studying the 207 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: whole arc of his life, um, they really coalesced during 208 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: that period. Could you talk a little about what those 209 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: themes were and how they developed for the pilgrim Rasputin? Yeah, Well, 210 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: the the Russians had this notion of the holy pilgrim 211 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: Russian ortstrani and by roughly n there was maybe as 212 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: many as a million of these people, typically typically peasants 213 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: who picked up and wandered the vast Russian Empire in 214 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: search of spiritual and religious enlightenment. Um. They tended to 215 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: live on the edge of poverty. Some of them went 216 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: around in fetters, chains um. Some of them, even resputing, 217 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: who went around in fetters for a while, would try 218 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: to sort of mortify the flesh and deny themselves the 219 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: pleasures of any flesh, whether it be you know, food, um. 220 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: Resputing for long stretches as a holy pilgrim, would not 221 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: change his clothes or underwear, lived in the wilds, lived 222 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: out of doors UM in search of enlightenment that they 223 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: might find in churches and monasteries and from priests um 224 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: all over the country. And they would simply live off 225 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: of alms and things like that as they went. So 226 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: this was resputants university, if you will. UM. Sometime roughly 227 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: when it was around twenty eight years old, he apparently 228 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: had some sort of a religious experience of vision or something, 229 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: and he got up and would leave home for long 230 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: stretches and travel on foot all over the Russian Empire 231 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: UM as one of these pilgrims seeking enlightenment, and it became, 232 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: if you will, his university. He learned the Bible inside 233 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: and out and was able after that to quote long 234 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: stretches of the Bible from memory. UM. He had this 235 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: incredible power of speaking about the Gospels in a way 236 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: that was direct, honest, earthy, and full of the fire 237 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: of a true believer that he had gained through these 238 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: years as a pilgrim. And this is something that sort 239 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: of set him apart um. And he also, if you will, 240 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: learned all about the social order of Russia. He learned 241 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: about the nobile, he learned about peasants, he learned about 242 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: convicts and criminals, UM, And he came to see the 243 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: world and to see Russia in one in which the 244 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: peasants were the backbone of the country. UM and the 245 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: elites were in a sense sort of parasites that lived 246 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: off of the labor of the common of the common man. 247 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: And these were themes that very much shaped his his 248 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: thinking about Scripture UM, about the place of religion, and 249 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: and the sort of critique that he kind of developed 250 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: about the Russian social order. So, of course, uh speaking 251 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: of the of the elites and and recipient's life as 252 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: a pilgrim, of course that that life brings him to St. Petersburg. 253 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: And could you tell us a bit about what St. 254 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: Petersburg was like at the turn of the century, what 255 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: what concerns dominated life there, and what might have attracted 256 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: Rasputin to come to that city in. St. Petersburg was 257 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: obviously the capital of the of the Russian Empire, and 258 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: had been since the beginning of the eighteenth century when 259 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: it was first created out of swamps by the Czar 260 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: Peter the Great Um and by you know, nineteen hundred, 261 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: around the time when Rasputin showed up, it was a 262 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: very sort of vibrant, growing metropolis, full of enormous ghettos 263 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: of poor, really miserable living conditions, on top of which 264 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: sat a glittering small elite of the very wealthy and powerful. 265 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: But for a figure like Resputant, who was clearly very ambitious, 266 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: he he had he had enormous hopes for himself and 267 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: his career as as sort of you know, an itinerant preacher, 268 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: if you will. Um he was also very much a 269 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: devout monarchist and believed in the institution of the monarchy 270 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: and saw himself as a real devoted son subject of 271 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: the of the Emperor of Russia. And I think much 272 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: of what drove him to the capitol was was this 273 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: sort of, if you will, kind of vainglory that he 274 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: had that somehow he was going to reach the top 275 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: of Russian society, that he had this message to bring 276 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: to the elites of Russia and even bring to the 277 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: palace of the Tsars. And I think this is ultimately 278 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: what um led him from one provincial city after another 279 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: to make his way to Petersburg, where he arrives either 280 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: in nineteen o four or nineteen o five from what 281 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: we can tell. Sometimes this period or the years leading 282 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 1: up to it is called the Silver Age of Russia. 283 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: Can you explain how people have used the Silver Age 284 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: and what is usually meant by that? Right? So, the 285 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: Silver Age refers to a period roughly from eighteen ninety 286 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: until the outbreak of World War One in nineteen fourteen. 287 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: And it's contrasted with the so called Golden Age of 288 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: of Russian literature, which was sort of the first decades 289 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century with the greatest of all Russian 290 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: writers and poets Alexander Pushkin. So what you had in 291 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: the Silver Age contrast with that was another flowering of 292 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: of literature, art, culture, music that was going on in 293 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: that fantasy eclip period um where you had incredible writers 294 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: like Ahmatova coming along uh yes, say in Alexander Bloch 295 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: and and many others that you had great painters like Rubel, 296 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: You had composers like Rachmaninoff and Rubinstein. Um, the ballet 297 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: was at its height under Um, under Jago liv and 298 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: artists like Alexander ben Wah. So there was this like outpouring, 299 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: this literally sort of bubbling of artistic expression that was 300 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: happening during that period. UM. And this it's interesting is 301 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: that Resputant's life and career overlaps almost exactly with with 302 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: the Silver Age, So in some ways you could view 303 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: him as as another expression of this this fervent bubbling 304 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: over of of artistic and intellectual curiosity and productivity. You mentioned, Uh, 305 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: of course that Rasputin was a UM, a devoted monarchist 306 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: and had the these you know, these ambitions for UH, 307 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: led by vain glory, to reach reach the pinnacle, reach 308 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: even the czar and the emperor. UH. And the role 309 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: of the autocracy just in general and Russia is is 310 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: so central, it seems like to the story. UM, how 311 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: would you describe the role that that the autocracy did 312 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: play in in Russian life and consciousness? UM, and especially 313 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: the connection between the czar and the people. Well, by 314 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: this time, under Zar Nicholas the second, who would who 315 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: would be the last? Are? The Romanov's had ruled rush 316 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: of Um for three hundred years since sixteen thirteen when 317 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: the first Romanoff was put on the throne. UM, So 318 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: there's been three hundred years of of Romanov monarchy. The 319 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: later decades of the dynasty under Nicholas. The second our 320 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: our period of dynamic um change. The economy is taking off, 321 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: it's growing, you get an increasingly sizeable um urban middle class, 322 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: you get the development of of an urban proletariat. So 323 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: on one hand, what you have is this sort of 324 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: dynamism and and change going on in the economy and 325 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: in society at large. And then you have this static 326 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: um political system that goes back to the early seventeenth 327 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: century of you know, one ruler with all supreme power 328 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: apparently handed down from God. And so there's this growing 329 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: tension between a dynamic and developing society and a rigid 330 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: um political system that doesn't reflect the change um. And 331 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: it's it's it's very much one of the struggles that 332 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: the Nicholas faces as czar is how to handle this, 333 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: and he does and absolutely horrifically appallingly bad job of 334 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: handling it um. And it's obviously what then leads to 335 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: revolution and the downfall of the monarchy in nineteen seventeen. 336 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: Part of the problem is is Nicholas his own personality. Uh, 337 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: he's weak, he's passive, he's indecisive, and he feels that 338 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: he was handed this this duty upon coming to the 339 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: throne following the death of his father, Alexander the Third, 340 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: who was a true sort of tyrant who ruled with 341 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: an iron fist. And and he doesn't sort of have 342 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: that character that his father does, and he waffles, and 343 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: he prevaricates, and he's not always sure what the right 344 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: move is to make, and he basically in many ways 345 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: sort of uh fumbles the situation. And he lives in 346 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: a world that is completely cut off from the realities 347 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: of the people that he rules over. Um. They live 348 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: in a gilded cage. The Romanovs do partially because they 349 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: know that there are segments of society with the want 350 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: the monarchy swept away, and not only that would would 351 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: want to kill him, and there are attempts on his life. Um. 352 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: Alexander the Second was blown up by terrorists in eighty 353 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: one UM. And so they're they're very much in a 354 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: way isolated from the society that they rule over. You 355 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: mentioned their Nicholas's personality. Of course, he marries Alexandra. Could 356 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: you describe her past personality, maybe in comparison to Nicholas, 357 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: or or how her personality interacted with this society that 358 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: she stepped into when she married him right. So obviously, Alexandra, 359 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: it's important to to know was was German born Um 360 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: marries into the Russian Romanov family Uh, and it was 361 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: a truly um loving marriage. They were utterly devoted to 362 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: each other their entire life. They were utterly devoted to 363 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: their children. But by temperament they were in many ways 364 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: very different from each other. Whereas Nicholas was again sort 365 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: of weak and and indecisive and and passive, if you will, 366 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: she was UH brittle yet determined, UM very much someone 367 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: who was very shy and awkward in public settings, always 368 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: preferred to be uh in the privacy of the family 369 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: and not out in public in a sense doing her 370 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: royal duties as the Empress. She was profoundly mystical, spiritual, 371 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: UM believed in all sorts of what to us today 372 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: would seem in many ways as strange um occult kind 373 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: of notions. UM. And she was somebody who, though she 374 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: loved Nicholas, dearly saw him for who he was, and 375 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: it must be said, saw the weaknesses of his character, 376 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: and so spent much of her her life trying to 377 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: find ways to support him in his role as are 378 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: and trying to to do what she could, in her 379 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: understanding of it, to make him a more effective and 380 00:24:48,240 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: more powerful ruler. You mentioned Alexandra's mysticism, which which seems 381 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: to show up certainly, not just in her, but it 382 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: seems seems like it's a kind of almost a trend 383 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: among elites in the capitol um. What was going on 384 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: in Russia at that time, during this Silver Age that 385 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: made the members among the aristocracy so interested and eager 386 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: in these kind of eccentric religious figures and occultism, mysticism, 387 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: things like that, right with the sort of the the 388 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: tight geist, if you will, of of fantasy eclo. Russia, 389 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 1: like other parts in Europe. Actually, to be honest, at 390 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: the time, there was there was very much a fascination 391 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: with with with dark forces at play, with a sense 392 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: that they were on the verge of some sort of 393 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: apocalyptic change, that it was in some ways the end 394 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: of times um. And there was a profound um fascination 395 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: with with mysticism, spiritualism, the cult uh you know, seances 396 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: and table turning and and all sorts of these sorts 397 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: of things. Hypnotism was was quite popular at the time, 398 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: and that's one thing that's often forgotten, I think when 399 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: people write about Nicholas and Alexandrin and their relationship with 400 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: Respute and um is it wasn't like they were the 401 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: only ones who were into this kind of thing. Most 402 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: of UH sort of elite aristocratic society and Rush at 403 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: the time was fascinated with with very spiritualist leaders, with 404 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: gurus uh and what have you. UM and there was 405 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: this desire to to seek alternate ways of connecting with 406 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: with forms of reality that traditional religion and the church 407 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: UM and science were unable to explain to people who 408 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: were who were seeking answers to to sort of these 409 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: life's questions that seemed to have this pressing urgency right 410 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: around nineteen it Can you talk about who Mr Philippe 411 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: was who stepped into this environment and maybe what his 412 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: rise was like in that milieu. Well, Mr philipp is 413 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: one of the one of the great characters in the 414 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: whole story of Nicholas and Alexandra and and then by 415 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: extension of resputing Uh he was basically a necromancer, a 416 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: seer charlatan if you will, from France who came to 417 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: the attention of Nicholas and Alexandra by way of the 418 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: so called Black Crows. UH. These two sisters who had 419 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: married into the extended Romanov family, and they were utterly 420 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: obsessed with the occult and Rosicrucianism and mysticism. And they 421 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: learned about this Monsieur Philippe through travels to France UM 422 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: and they helped introduce him to Nicholas and Alexandra UM 423 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: and he made his way to the court in St. Petersburg, 424 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: and they were utterly taken with him. They were convinced 425 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: he was a prophet um, that he could divine the future, 426 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: and that he had insights um into the nature of 427 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: rule and power and and and how um Nicholas should 428 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: should govern Russia. And he also claimed a very unique 429 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: skill that was really crucially important to UH Nicholas an 430 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: Alexander at the time, and that was the ability to 431 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: determine and shape the sex of a child in utero. 432 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: Now this was hugely important because obviously Alexandra's main task 433 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: as empress was to give birth to a son and 434 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: heir to the throne, and she gave birth to four 435 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: daughters in a row. And there was great consternation uh 436 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: within the royal family that Alexandra had failed her duty 437 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: as the empress, and Philip claimed there was a certain 438 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: magnetic electric energy that emanated from his fingertips, and by 439 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: passing them over Uh the empresses belly once she was pregnant, 440 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: he could make sure that the next child she had 441 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: would be a son. And obviously this is something that 442 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: was high on their list of priorities, and that gave 443 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: Philippe this great um hold over Nicholas and Alexander for 444 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: quite some time until he was outed as a charlatan 445 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: by other members of the royal family and forced to 446 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: leave Russia and go back to France for good. Speaking 447 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: of Nicholas and Alexandra's male heir, then, UM, it seems 448 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: like one of the most determinative decisions that they make 449 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: is when they find they have a male son, Uh 450 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: that he of course has has hemophilia, but they they 451 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: keep it a secret for a long time. Um. Why 452 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: did why did they feel like they needed to keep 453 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: that such a secret from everyone? Well, obviously, there was 454 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: incredible sense of relief and joy when alex say, the 455 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: first boy was born into the into the family after 456 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: four girls. Um. There was a sense that Alexandra had 457 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: fulfilled her duty as the Empress, had delivered a male heir. 458 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: For Nicholas the second. But once it's learned not that 459 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: long on, that he that he has tim ophelia, that 460 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: he has this bleeding disease, there's utter terror and panic 461 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: because obviously there's a fear, as often happens with with OPHELIAX, 462 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: especially in those days when the disease was not as 463 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: well understood, that he would not live to adulthood UM. 464 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: And the last thing they wanted Russia to know was 465 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: that the boy that she had produced was ill, was 466 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: diseased UH, and would likely die within a few years. 467 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: And this was something they were kept as a very 468 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: closely guarded secret and were terrified UM to let out 469 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: beyond sort of the confines of the palace. Now it's 470 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: interesting is that UM people always assume that what brought 471 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: Respute into the palace was his ability to heal the 472 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: sick air, alex say, But in fact it's much more 473 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: complicated than that, and you have to, in fact go 474 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: back to Monsieur Philippe, because Monsieur Philippe, when he left 475 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: Russia for good, told Nicholas and Alexandra to be patient, 476 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: that he could see into the future at time when 477 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: a man would come to take his place as their friend, 478 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: and that is how they referred to Monsieur Philippe and 479 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: later to Respute, was as our friend, and that someone 480 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: would come to take his place and to provide the 481 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: same role um, to play the same role that he 482 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: had in their lives Um. And this is very much 483 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: then what prepares the way for resputing to come into 484 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: the lives of Nicholas and Alexandra, that is independent of 485 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: the illness of alex Say, when resput and does arrive, 486 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: he makes lots of connections with others among the aristocracy, 487 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: among the elites before he meets the czar um, when 488 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: he when he got to St. Petersburg nineteen o five 489 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: and nineteen o six, What kinds of relationships was he 490 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: building with these elite figures? Were they his followers? Were 491 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: they some kind of friend? What were these relationships he 492 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: was building? Well? What helps sort of open the doors 493 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: of the capital for resputing um, chiefly are his contacts 494 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: with higher ups within the um Russian Orthodox Church. Through 495 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: his years as a holy pilgrim, he had come to 496 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: impress a great many priests and then bishops and archbishops 497 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: within the church as a true man of God, as 498 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: a true holy man who has risen up from the 499 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: depths of Russian peasant society. And he literally gets letters 500 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 1: of recommendation from priests and bishops as churches, at churches 501 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: and monasteries as he goes along. And it's with these 502 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: letters of recommendation that he shows up in St. Petersburg, 503 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: probably some time around nineteen o four and is immediately 504 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: accepted in at the Alexander Neevsky Monastery, one of the 505 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: great seats of Russian holiness within the Russian Orthodox Church UM. 506 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: And originally, these these church members are amazed at this figure. 507 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: They have never seen someone quite like him, the energy, 508 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: the fervor with which he praised the and preaches the 509 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: word of God. UM. He's referred to as a as 510 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: a burning torch, as a taught string um. They sense 511 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: this sort of electrical charge that comes from him as 512 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: he speaks the word of God. And then through his 513 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: connections in the church, he then is introduced into aristocratic society. 514 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: He makes his way from palace to palace, going to 515 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: various aristocratic salons UM. And these men and women within 516 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: the upper echelons of Russian society are fascinated by these 517 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: um peasant holy men. If you will. It's like they're 518 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: being put in touch with creatures from another planet. Um. 519 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: It's a world that they, being part of the westernized 520 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: urban elite, have no real contact with. They don't go 521 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: to Siberia, they don't go to peasant huts, and so 522 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: it allows them to enter this whole world of a 523 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: Russian society from which they're cut off, but which holds 524 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: great fascination for them amidst this group of of elites 525 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: that he's building these relationships with. It seems like or 526 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: certainly one of the more enduring elements of the respute 527 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: and story is that a lot of a lot of 528 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: these followers were women. Uh. And I was wondering if 529 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: you could comment and help us to understand what aristocratic St. 530 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: Petersburg women found it to be attractive in Respue, what 531 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: what drew them to him. I think what's really important 532 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: in trying to understand h resputants popularity amongst sort of um, 533 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: the women of places like St. Petersburg is to is 534 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: to recognize that these were women typically from the upper 535 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: levels of society, women who did not work, women who 536 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: are not encouraged or often he even really allowed to 537 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: do work. Um, they were often lonely. They were often 538 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: in loveless marriages or single um many of them, uh, 539 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: we're not actually put it, having their emotional spiritual needs 540 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: met either in their personal relationships within the family or 541 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: from the religious um figures that they met through the 542 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: official Russian Orthodox Church, which by this time was very bureaucratic, 543 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: was almost like a you know, simply a branch of 544 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: civil servants, if you will. And a figure like Resputin 545 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 1: comes along, full of of dynamism and passion and energy, 546 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 1: and he very basically on one level, he just listens 547 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: to them. He's willing to hear them. He's he's willing, uh, 548 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: he hears them, he listens to them, he takes their 549 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: concerns into his soul, if you will. And for a 550 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: lot of women, this is this is something they simply 551 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: have not had in their life, that they've been searching 552 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: in their life. So that's that's part of it. Um. 553 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: There's also the flip side, which you know is central 554 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: to to who risputing was um uh is he was alleged. 555 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no better way around it. He would 556 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 1: not have fared very well in the the me too 557 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: moment of our our recent history. Um. He pawed them, 558 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: he rubbed them, he stroked them. Uh. We really don't 559 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: know how far he went with some of them, um, 560 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: but uh, you know, to some of these women, his 561 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: physical attentions may have been welcome things lacking in their 562 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: own lives. But I think for most of them they 563 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: were elements of his personality and conduct that they cared 564 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: uh not to indulge him in um um. But there 565 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,919 Speaker 1: was this against attention he gave to these women who 566 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: were were very much seeking of connection, if you will. 567 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: So at this point, what was resputing along with these relationships? 568 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: What was he actually teaching um where his teaching is 569 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: kind of esoteric? Were they scandalous to the Russian Orthodox Church? 570 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: Or you mentioned that it was a connections in the 571 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: church that built the bridge into high society for him. 572 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: Was he teaching Orthodoxy where his teaching is practical? Can 573 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,439 Speaker 1: you describe characterize his his teaching at this point? Well, 574 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: on one hand, you know, the the church is looking 575 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: to revitalize itself. It feels that, you know, they're sort 576 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: of dead at its core, and they they're looking for 577 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: um an injection of energy and fervency and and and 578 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: burning belief and figures like Resputent offered that um. Now 579 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: myths uh and gossips start to develop around Respute and 580 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: that he is a member of one of these illegal 581 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: sex known as the klisti hlist is the Russian word 582 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: for whip. That the uh, that he is a member 583 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: of this group that engages in all sorts of strange 584 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: rights and rituals of selflagellation or giastic sex um, all 585 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: sorts of things like this and this is this is 586 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: a cloud that hangs over his head his whole his 587 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: whole life. He probably was never remembered that UM. But 588 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: in terms of his his actual teachings and the message 589 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: that he brings really in many ways is nothing radical, 590 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: is nothing terribly um earth shattering or new. What he's 591 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: able to do is to is to quote scripture talk 592 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: about the teachings of Jesus and the Gospel in a 593 00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: way that is imbued with this sort of peasant earthiness. UM. 594 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: He speaks about it in a way that that imbues 595 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: it with the life and an energy that the sort 596 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: of hide bound priests of the of the Orthodox Church 597 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: are are aren't able to do. He goes on and 598 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: on at length about the beauty of of of nature 599 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: of God's creation UM that can be felt and experienced 600 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: by being out in the in the fields and woods 601 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: of Russia. And this speaks very much to the people 602 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: in the urban areas UM. He also has a message 603 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: of love, of Christ's love that is powerful. And he 604 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: also has a certain social critique that I think people 605 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: are are UM open to listening. And this is very 606 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: much about the importance of the common people, the importance 607 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: of the Russian peasant, the importance of the poor and 608 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: the degree to which they are being fed upon UM 609 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: by the upper classes. Much of the teachings that he 610 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 1: he gives is a social critique of the idle rich 611 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: of the urban capitals UM, and this is something that 612 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: he he very much believes in UM and has a 613 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: certain resonance among people themselves, even though they may be 614 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: from these social classes. Speaking of dynamic, dynamic religious figures 615 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: that are are gaining popularity at this time, one of 616 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: the most fascinating figures aside from Rasputin, to me as 617 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: I was reading your book was the monk iliodor h. 618 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit about about who he 619 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: is and why he's He looms so heavily in Rasputin's. Yeah, 620 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: Iliodorus a fascinating and utterly bizarre character. I mean, he's 621 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,839 Speaker 1: one of these figures you really couldn't make up even 622 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: if you tried. He was again one of these sort 623 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: of popular preachers who, unlike Resputent, does go to the 624 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: theological seminary and does get an actual training UH in 625 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: theology and religion and becomes an an Orthodox priest. Resputent 626 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: never gets a theological training, never becomes a priest. Um. 627 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: But Iliodor is UH an extreme vocal critic of Nicholas 628 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: the Second and the autocracy in its in its waning years. 629 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: Not what you might expect from the left, denouncing it 630 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: as an oppressive autocratic institution that denies freedom and civil liberties, 631 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: but a critic from the right. He is the nastiest 632 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: of anti semites. Um is constantly um denouncing Jews as 633 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: an evil influence as the destroyers of the Russian Orthodox people, 634 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: denounces Nicholas and his government for not doing more to 635 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: come down hard on the Jews and the Empire. He 636 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: denounces intellectuals he had, denounces socialists and liberals and the 637 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: intelligentsia and what have you. And he he establishes fairly 638 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: large following in the city of Saditz in UH quite 639 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: a way as outside the capital, but he becomes a 640 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 1: thorn in the side of the regime because he's he's 641 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: constantly denouncing it and calling for violence UM and early 642 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: on Resputing is drawn to Eliador and another one of 643 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: these sort of right wing priests by the name of 644 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,879 Speaker 1: Germ again and the three of them, Krum becomes sort 645 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: of a tricha, a threesome of these um upstart preachers, 646 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: if you will. UM. But eventually, over time Respute and 647 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: breaks with Theodore and get him again, and they become 648 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 1: sort of blood enemies, to the point that Iliador will 649 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: be involved in two plots to have Respute and murdered 650 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: once Ressputan does meet the czar and meet the Romanos. 651 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 1: What do we know about You know, we we've talked 652 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: about that he was a monarchist and wanted to support 653 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: UM bizarre, but do we know anything more about kind 654 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: of his personal or inner motives and aims. Uh focused 655 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: on Nicholas, Alexandra the royal household as he was forming 656 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: and maintaining a bond with them. Well, we know the 657 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: first time they met was the first November nineteen o five, 658 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: when as a result of his connections with the sisters 659 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: I mentioned the from Montenet grow the Black Crows who 660 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,320 Speaker 1: had married into the Romanov family and gotten to no Resputin, 661 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 1: that they found a way to introduce Resputent into the 662 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: palace um. And there was a meeting that Nicholas and 663 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: Alexandra had with him, and they were from the very 664 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: beginning utterly beguiled by him. They were completely completely impressed 665 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: with him, taken in by him, moved by him, and 666 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: sat with him for for hours listening to him, to 667 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: him speak. Now, it's important the timing of this. The 668 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: fall of nineteen o five Russia isn't turmoil. This is 669 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: the so called revolution of nineteen o five, when the 670 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: cities are burning, there's unrest all over the country and 671 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: and the autocracy actually does come close to being torn 672 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,959 Speaker 1: down by revolution, and Resputent comes to them. And what's 673 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,319 Speaker 1: interesting is from the very beginning of their relationship he 674 00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: offers Nicholas political advice and says, don't give up the throne, 675 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: don't give up power, maintain the dynasty, maintain the autocracy. 676 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: And this is just the sort of message that Nick 677 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: Nicholas is looking for and especially to hear it not 678 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: from some minister or general, but to hear it from 679 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 1: a peasant from Siberia, from a man of God. It's 680 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,879 Speaker 1: as almost as if he becomes a a a mouthpiece 681 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: for all of peasant Russia. When Nicholas and Alexander sit 682 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: down with Resputant, they feel they are hearing the voice 683 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: of the peasant masses that they have no other way 684 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: of accessing. And from the very beginning he is giving 685 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,720 Speaker 1: Nicholas political advice, and this is hugely important. It again 686 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: undercuts the notion that the main attraction to Resputin was 687 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: to try to keep alex a healthy and alive um, 688 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: which does become huge important, but from the very beginning 689 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,240 Speaker 1: was was much less important, and maybe not even important 690 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 1: at all. And what Respute gets out of this obviously 691 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,240 Speaker 1: is is just, you know, to be able to bask 692 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: uh In, knowing that he is admitted to the palace 693 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 1: where no other peasant is allowed, that he has the 694 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 1: ear of the Emperor and the Empress of Russia is 695 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: uh something that obviously plays to his notions that he 696 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 1: is a divine figure, that he is important, that he's 697 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: powerful um and that it it gives him, you know, 698 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: this this aura of authority. That is something I think 699 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:40,440 Speaker 1: that he has a very um striving individual who wanted 700 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: to see how far he could go with his life 701 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: and career becomes a great reward in and of itself. 702 00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,399 Speaker 1: One of the most helpful ways, as I was again 703 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,439 Speaker 1: reading your book, that you you frame out in terms 704 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: of thinking about the nature of that relationship was through 705 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: the lens of a royal favorite. Um. Could you tell 706 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: us a bit about how how Rasputin UH stacked up 707 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: with with other royal favorites UH, And it may be 708 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: a little bit about what that institution is, right, well, 709 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a way of thinking about resputing that 710 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: people have generally not considered. UM. I I was immediately 711 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: struck by it. As as as a functional relationship. That 712 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: is is really important to understanding the dynamic of the relationship. Obviously, 713 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: monarchies UH tend to generate royal favorites, and you you know, 714 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: you have them in England, you have them in France 715 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,839 Speaker 1: and Germany, UH and other places, and obviously you had 716 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: them in Russia before one of the great periods of 717 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: royal favorites in Russian history was in the reign of 718 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: Catherine the Great in the second half of the eighteenth 719 00:48:55,120 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: century UM where you had the arlaf Brothers, Gregory or 720 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: a law who was Katherine the Great lover who helped 721 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: to you know, put her on the throne and overthrow 722 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 1: her husband, the Czar Peter the Third. And then after 723 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: she's done with Gregory Orlof, she takes another favorite, Gregory 724 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: Pachomkin Potempkin as he's known in English, who becomes quite 725 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: possibly her secret husband and one of her great favorites. 726 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,800 Speaker 1: Is it's it's it's someone who helps share the burdens 727 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,919 Speaker 1: of rule. It's it's a figure that a ruler can 728 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 1: completely open up to UM, can can help UM if 729 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 1: you will share the emotional challenges of kingship UM and 730 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 1: in a sense respute and fulfills that same function to 731 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: Nicholas and Alexandra that the Orlof Brothers or Gregory patch 732 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 1: Tomkin did for Kathyn the Great. One of the things though, 733 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:05,759 Speaker 1: I think that's that's similar is that outsiders always hate favorites. 734 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: So the courtiers in the time of Catherine the Great 735 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,560 Speaker 1: felt that an Orlof or or a pet Tompkins access 736 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 1: to the ruler and power was not justified, that it 737 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,920 Speaker 1: was illegitimate, if you will. And that's the same thing 738 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: that happens with with with Resputin is the ministers and 739 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: courtiers and generals and aristocrats feel that that the influence 740 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: that uh Resputent has, the access he has is illegitimate 741 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:39,319 Speaker 1: and undeserved and undermines the prestige of their monarchy. So 742 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: that's one thing that's similar. One thing that's different about 743 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 1: Resputin as a favorite is favorites typically, once they attached 744 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,879 Speaker 1: themselves to a ruler, stay very close physically. They live 745 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,839 Speaker 1: in the palace, they live nearby the palace, they're always there, 746 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: they're always at the side of the ruler, and they 747 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 1: almost always typically use that access to enrich themselves with 748 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 1: great wealth and titles and what have you. What's interesting 749 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,560 Speaker 1: about Resputant is that he's very different. He never moves 750 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 1: into the palace, He maintains his home in Siberia, and 751 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: he never enriches himself. He doesn't get any any sort 752 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,280 Speaker 1: of noble titles, and he doesn't acquire great wealth, which 753 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: in some ways is very different from what you typically 754 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:30,760 Speaker 1: see with a royal favorite. Mm hmm. Let's go follow 755 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 1: some of those rumors and things that grew up around resputing. 756 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,120 Speaker 1: Do we know if the if the raised suspicions and 757 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: the primary investigation of him and his religious practices during 758 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,359 Speaker 1: some of those early years nineteen o seven, and did 759 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: they affect his relationship with the ars Arena. Well, it's 760 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 1: interesting is to look at how the the um criticisms 761 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,280 Speaker 1: against Respute and shift over the course of his life 762 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: and in the early years when he after he's first 763 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,799 Speaker 1: sort of made connections at court Um and starts to 764 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: gain notoriety. The criticisms against him are chiefly religious based, 765 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 1: that he's, as I mentioned, a member of this illegal sect, 766 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: the polisti Um, that he has engaged in or giastic 767 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 1: religious practices and what have you. This is the original 768 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 1: criticism against him Um. And there are investigations that are 769 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,920 Speaker 1: begun into his religious practices back at home in Siberia. 770 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,759 Speaker 1: And these these concerns are brought before Nicholas and Alexandra, 771 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: and they basically dismissed them out of hand, and they 772 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,400 Speaker 1: say that, you know, whenever a great religious figure rises 773 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 1: up out of the people, the religious powers that be 774 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,400 Speaker 1: tend to dismiss them and distrust them. Um and try 775 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,320 Speaker 1: to cast them in a harsh light, and they basically 776 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: push all of this stuff away and refused to used 777 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: to listen to these criticisms. As as respuents relationship continues 778 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: to develop, Um and the these these rumors start to 779 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,840 Speaker 1: to swirl a bit more. You know that the first 780 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: serious test then of his relationship with the with the 781 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:25,480 Speaker 1: throne comes when Prime Minister's Stolepian and dress Hiv tried 782 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:31,840 Speaker 1: to banish him from the capital unsuccessfully. UM. I was curious, 783 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:36,600 Speaker 1: why were such powerful men like them unable to to 784 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,040 Speaker 1: do something that seemed kind of simple to banish him 785 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: from the capital, right exactly. Um. One of the things 786 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 1: that that happens over time is that the more resputing 787 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 1: is criticized by powerful men within the government, within the army, 788 00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 1: within the church, the more Alexandra double is down that 789 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,920 Speaker 1: she is not going to let them take respute and 790 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,520 Speaker 1: away from her. UM. I think she always regretted the 791 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,840 Speaker 1: fact that she had allowed members of the Romanov family 792 00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 1: and within the government circles to force her Nicholas to 793 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,840 Speaker 1: get rid of Monsieur Philippe, and she was she was 794 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,479 Speaker 1: determined that that was not going to happen. Again, and 795 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:31,399 Speaker 1: Nicholas could not stand confrontation with Alexandra um and it's 796 00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,080 Speaker 1: it's there's a story. It may be hippocryphal, but I 797 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:35,759 Speaker 1: put it in the book because it I think it 798 00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,160 Speaker 1: captures a certain truth, whether or not was actually said 799 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:44,759 Speaker 1: or not. But apparently Nicholas told steleip And that, you know, 800 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,440 Speaker 1: I cannot get rid of Resputing because for me, it's 801 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:53,240 Speaker 1: better to have one Resputin than you know, another hundred 802 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,600 Speaker 1: hysterical fits uh from Alexandra if I'm forced to get 803 00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,839 Speaker 1: rid of this man. So you all will just need 804 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,840 Speaker 1: find your way to deal with his presence, with the 805 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,120 Speaker 1: fact that he's a part of our life, because I 806 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,440 Speaker 1: just can't get rid of him. My wife needs him, 807 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,319 Speaker 1: the Empress needs him. And this is just how it's 808 00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:19,080 Speaker 1: going to be with Nicholas saying things like that. Can 809 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,920 Speaker 1: you help us understand how serious monarchists who supported the 810 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: czar thought they were helping him by publicly attacking Respute 811 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: And when that came about, well, those who are devout 812 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 1: monarchists come to see resputants presence and the rumors um 813 00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:44,759 Speaker 1: and gossip about him as a horrible womanizer, as a 814 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,960 Speaker 1: member of this illegal religious sect that this is um 815 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:54,360 Speaker 1: tarnishing the reputation of the throne, this is undermining the 816 00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:59,360 Speaker 1: legitimacy of the Romanov dynasty. So they perceive it as 817 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:05,319 Speaker 1: protecting Nicholas and Alexandra, protecting the throne by trying to 818 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:11,480 Speaker 1: remove resputin um and have him banished to Siberia um 819 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,439 Speaker 1: and never you know, being allowed to come back into 820 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: the presence of Nicholas and Alexandra. So that's kind of 821 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: how they perceive their attempts to, as they understand it, 822 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,560 Speaker 1: open the eyes of Nicholas and Alexandra to the true 823 00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,040 Speaker 1: character of Respute and and to the damage he's doing 824 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 1: to the aura um around the throne. But there's another 825 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,879 Speaker 1: dynamic going on. Is is is they are are very 826 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 1: much resent Resputin because Nicholas and Alexandra allow very few 827 00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 1: people into their private world um, and that extends to 828 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,279 Speaker 1: the aristocracy and the upper reaches of the government. They 829 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,440 Speaker 1: don't even allow the great princes and princesses of the 830 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: of the realm into their most private and intimate spheres 831 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,840 Speaker 1: of life. Yet they are allowed owing a peasant to 832 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 1: have access to that. And this is something that rubs 833 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: them all the wrong way. That makes them angry, envious, jealous. Um, 834 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 1: there's a good deal of sort of basic sort of 835 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 1: class hatred where these aristocrats look down their nose at 836 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 1: the peasant masses of Russia. And so there's an also 837 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,480 Speaker 1: element of that going on in their criticism, something obviously 838 00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,919 Speaker 1: that they don't they don't say, but is very much 839 00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:32,480 Speaker 1: part of what is motivating their actions. Speaking of that, 840 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:37,800 Speaker 1: that incredibly close access that Rasputin has with the Romanovs, 841 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: another of the most enduring UH elements of the Rasputin 842 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,880 Speaker 1: myth is that UH he and Alexandra were lovers. And 843 00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: you note that it was most likely that that idea 844 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:56,000 Speaker 1: came about from Eliodor, who UH published a letter from 845 00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:00,760 Speaker 1: supposedly is from from Alexandra to Rasputin. Can you ascribe 846 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,480 Speaker 1: that letter and uh the effect that it had in 847 00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:09,520 Speaker 1: the public once it was once it was released. So Um, Alexandra, 848 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,800 Speaker 1: UM and Resputin exchange letters. Resputent also exchanged letters with 849 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:19,400 Speaker 1: UH with the children UM in the family, and on 850 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:24,760 Speaker 1: a visit to Pakrovskaya too Resputent's home, Resputent showed some 851 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:28,800 Speaker 1: of these letters to Iliador. Now we don't know exactly 852 00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 1: what happened, but it appears that Eliador stole some of them, 853 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,680 Speaker 1: including a letter that Alexandra wrote to Resputing at a 854 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,800 Speaker 1: moment of extreme grief and sadness and emotional distress, and 855 00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,880 Speaker 1: which she talks about, you know, I'm only able to, 856 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, feel at peace and at ease when i 857 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,640 Speaker 1: can rest my head on your shoulder, when I'm in 858 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:54,200 Speaker 1: your presence, when I feel your warmth around me. Um. 859 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:59,360 Speaker 1: And Iliador basically held down to this letter as as 860 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:01,680 Speaker 1: as a well up and to use against Resputin when 861 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 1: the time came, and he did just that. Copies of 862 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:10,240 Speaker 1: the letter were made, they spread throughout society, and it 863 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: became the basis of this notion that there was a 864 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:20,840 Speaker 1: sexual relationship between Resputin and the Empress. Now nine certain 865 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:26,760 Speaker 1: there never was any such relationship. Um. But again this 866 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,880 Speaker 1: information was brought before for Nicholas, and he was presented 867 00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,600 Speaker 1: with the actual letter, and he said, yes, this is 868 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,320 Speaker 1: Alexandra's handwriting, took the letter, put it in his destroyer, 869 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,560 Speaker 1: and basically said, we will not speak of these matters further. 870 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,840 Speaker 1: But again it becomes um part of the basis for 871 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:51,760 Speaker 1: the myth that not only is Resputing offering spiritual sucker 872 00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:56,080 Speaker 1: um emotional comfort, but that in fact he's engaged in 873 00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,200 Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with the empress, which then later grows 874 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,919 Speaker 1: metastas rises to the point that he's also sleeping with 875 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,280 Speaker 1: the daughters of Alexandra, in fact even gets one of 876 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:10,360 Speaker 1: them pregnant, and that there's talk that alex say, the 877 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,760 Speaker 1: heir to the throne, is in fact the bastard child 878 01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,760 Speaker 1: of Resputant, and all the stuff just gets more outlandish 879 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:21,360 Speaker 1: and crazier as the years progress. So what do we 880 01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:26,480 Speaker 1: know about resputents actual relationship to the Romanov children, the 881 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,440 Speaker 1: daughters to Alexey from that time? What is striking? We 882 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,960 Speaker 1: we know that you know he was he was allowed 883 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:39,680 Speaker 1: access to the nursery um where the children were being raised. Uh, 884 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,360 Speaker 1: he would help put them to bed, he would rough 885 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:48,720 Speaker 1: house with them. Um. It's quite startling. Um. And you 886 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:53,880 Speaker 1: really question the judgment of Nicholas and Alexandra. Um because 887 01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:58,520 Speaker 1: there are maids present, There are nursemaids present, um, and 888 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,919 Speaker 1: they see this and they're they're shocked by it. Um. 889 01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,120 Speaker 1: And they begin to then talk outside the palace and 890 01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,520 Speaker 1: it's and it starts to spread. UM. Again, I don't 891 01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:13,400 Speaker 1: think there was ever anything un toward Uh, that happened 892 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:15,640 Speaker 1: at these moments, they were always being watched by the 893 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,560 Speaker 1: parents or by nurses, what have you, nurse mates, Um, 894 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,320 Speaker 1: But it does become the source for gossip and rumors. 895 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,440 Speaker 1: We have letters, um that have survived that respute and 896 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,280 Speaker 1: wrote to the children, and they're they're you know, they're 897 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,440 Speaker 1: they're very innocent, and they're very you know, they don't 898 01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:37,880 Speaker 1: suggest anything nefarious. They're they're very much you know, Tanyusha, 899 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,959 Speaker 1: I love you, I miss you. God loves you, God 900 01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,600 Speaker 1: shines on you. Go out be in nature. There of 901 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:52,640 Speaker 1: that sort of nature. One of the big formative moments, 902 01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,440 Speaker 1: it seems like, or at least an important one for 903 01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:57,800 Speaker 1: for Rasped and was his his trip through the Holy 904 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:02,600 Speaker 1: Land in nineteen eleven. Can you tell a bit about, uh, 905 01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,240 Speaker 1: what prompted that, how that affected him, and how that 906 01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:11,040 Speaker 1: formed his own sense of purpose and standing as a 907 01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,240 Speaker 1: holy man. Well, just as you know, I mentioned that 908 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: he had begun his religious life as one of these 909 01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,800 Speaker 1: holy pilgrims, going around Russia from church to church and 910 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,760 Speaker 1: monastery to monastery. Um, once you've tapped out Russia, what's 911 01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,800 Speaker 1: the next big place to go as a pilgrim? And 912 01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,960 Speaker 1: that would be to go to the Holy Land. And 913 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,200 Speaker 1: it's not as exotic maybe as it first seems, that 914 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, a Russian in nineteen eleven would be going 915 01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,480 Speaker 1: to the Holy Land. There were actually packaged tours that 916 01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,640 Speaker 1: Russians would go on that would that would take them 917 01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,200 Speaker 1: to see the places connected to the life of Jesus. 918 01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 1: And this is essentially what he did as he went 919 01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,040 Speaker 1: on one one of these package tours, if you will. 920 01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,400 Speaker 1: But he was profoundly moved by the experience, and he 921 01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,160 Speaker 1: wrote about it, and he and and he sent letters 922 01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:01,600 Speaker 1: back to Nicholas and Alexandra about the meaning it had 923 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,240 Speaker 1: for him. One of the things that he came back 924 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:09,120 Speaker 1: with was a renewed um conviction that the only true 925 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:13,800 Speaker 1: form of Christianity was Russian Orthodoxy. He had nothing but 926 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,400 Speaker 1: horrible things to say about the other branches of the 927 01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:24,200 Speaker 1: Christian faith, and and he came to believe that pilgrimage 928 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 1: to the Holy Lands should be encouraged among Russian society 929 01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,720 Speaker 1: as a way of instilling greater faith in the church, 930 01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:38,040 Speaker 1: and by extension, than by instilling greater faith and loyalty 931 01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:44,400 Speaker 1: among Russian Orthodox believers and subjects of the Crown. In 932 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:48,040 Speaker 1: the sanctity of the throne itself, that this was a 933 01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:53,360 Speaker 1: way you could further bind Russians to the autocracy, was 934 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,800 Speaker 1: through these trips to the Holy Land, and and he 935 01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 1: would come back and speak about his experiences there, and 936 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:06,040 Speaker 1: this definitely sort of gave him a greater sense of 937 01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:13,240 Speaker 1: religious authority in the eyes of his believers mhm. At 938 01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,360 Speaker 1: the end of that year dwenteen eleven. You note that 939 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,600 Speaker 1: there's this and you describe, of course in your book, 940 01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:25,480 Speaker 1: this confrontation between Elidor and uh Germ again and Rasputin um, 941 01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,520 Speaker 1: and you describe it as as one of the most 942 01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:33,160 Speaker 1: bizarre and mysterious events in Rasputin's life. Um. What prompted 943 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,280 Speaker 1: these men to dramatically turn on Respute And as you 944 01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,640 Speaker 1: said earlier, that the that they do this and they become, 945 01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:43,520 Speaker 1: as you said, blood enemies. What happened there, well, it's 946 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:47,360 Speaker 1: it's bizarre. There's there's conflicting accounts of of of what happened, 947 01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:51,760 Speaker 1: but it was in St. Petersburg and Gerim again and 948 01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:58,040 Speaker 1: Eliador summoned Respute into a meeting. Now it's possible that 949 01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 1: they sensed that resputants place alongside Nicholas and Alexandra was 950 01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,560 Speaker 1: somehow weakened that the criticisms around him had reached such 951 01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,960 Speaker 1: an extent that maybe Nicholas and Alexandra were thinking of 952 01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,920 Speaker 1: cutting themselves free of Resputin, thus meaning there would be 953 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:21,080 Speaker 1: an opening for a similar figure. And Eleador had always 954 01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:23,520 Speaker 1: hoped that he would be able to take Resputant's place 955 01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:29,040 Speaker 1: alongside Nicholas and Alexandra. So they confronted Resputant and basically 956 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:34,280 Speaker 1: accused him of being the devil, of being the anti Christ. Uh. 957 01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:38,480 Speaker 1: There's a bizarre you know talk that they you know, 958 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,480 Speaker 1: grabbed at his penis and we're gonna try to you know, 959 01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:45,640 Speaker 1: lop it off u and neuter him, turn him into 960 01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:47,640 Speaker 1: a eunuch on the spot, that sort of thing. That 961 01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,040 Speaker 1: there was a fight and struggle, and they were beating 962 01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,560 Speaker 1: him with the cross, saying out devil, out devil um. 963 01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,040 Speaker 1: And they were trying to get him to to promise 964 01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,840 Speaker 1: to go back to Siberia and never show his face again. 965 01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:03,520 Speaker 1: They play their hand terribly, um, and in fact, it 966 01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:09,440 Speaker 1: only further strengthens resputants place at court and further damages 967 01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:13,480 Speaker 1: the position of of Iliador and Gerim again. And they 968 01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:17,760 Speaker 1: are basically then at that point they rupture any relationship 969 01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:20,280 Speaker 1: they have with Rasputin, and they then go on and 970 01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,200 Speaker 1: basically lose their place in the church, and especially in 971 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:28,600 Speaker 1: terms of Eliodor, who denounces his faith and becomes an 972 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:37,600 Speaker 1: apostate and and leaves the leaves the church altogether. Around 973 01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,200 Speaker 1: this time and shortly after, uh, you also note that 974 01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:44,000 Speaker 1: there's there's souring relationships, uh kind of on a on 975 01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:48,600 Speaker 1: a broader scale, and a number of different uh moments 976 01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:52,600 Speaker 1: or or or factors of that. Uh. How significant were 977 01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:58,120 Speaker 1: were things like Novoselov's pamphlet the Rasputin Dossier and Gutchakov's 978 01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:03,040 Speaker 1: blow to the Alcove speech in souring the relationship between 979 01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,600 Speaker 1: the Duma and the Czar and kind of a large scale, right. 980 01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:10,560 Speaker 1: So it's you know, up until this point, really all 981 01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:16,080 Speaker 1: of the information people have about Resputing is oral, it's 982 01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:20,440 Speaker 1: word of mouth, it's gossip. And then in n of 983 01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,080 Speaker 1: a journalist by the name of your Novosel publishes in 984 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:29,400 Speaker 1: the Moscow Gazette a story about Resputing as this debauched 985 01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:33,640 Speaker 1: pseudo holy man who's a sex maniac and a pervert 986 01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:37,360 Speaker 1: and ellegtion and a threat to society, which causes shock 987 01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:41,520 Speaker 1: waves and gets repeated in magazines and newspapers throughout the country, 988 01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:45,480 Speaker 1: and then of a self later tries to to publish 989 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:49,040 Speaker 1: this information in a pamphlet that is repressed, but then 990 01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:52,040 Speaker 1: parts of it get leaked to the press and printed 991 01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:55,000 Speaker 1: throughout And it's one of the interesting things is is 992 01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,120 Speaker 1: there's a certain level of freedom of the press now 993 01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:02,160 Speaker 1: in Russia after nineteen o five, and Nicholas is just lived. 994 01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,479 Speaker 1: He's so angry that newspapers are publishing these things about 995 01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,600 Speaker 1: respute and that he tries to get it to stop. 996 01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:10,880 Speaker 1: But his ministers say, look, you know, after the revolution 997 01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,240 Speaker 1: of nineteen o five, you granted freedom of the press generally, 998 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:20,000 Speaker 1: and so we simply cannot go around censoring uh newspapers 999 01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,479 Speaker 1: and magazines. Um, we can try to confiscate them after 1000 01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,200 Speaker 1: the fact, but we can't beforehand tell them you can't 1001 01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:31,360 Speaker 1: write about this person. So this greatly increases the controversy 1002 01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:36,879 Speaker 1: around resputing and leads then to a figure a deputy 1003 01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,040 Speaker 1: and the dooma which is like the parliament um to 1004 01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:44,320 Speaker 1: get up in nineteen twelve um and denounce respute and 1005 01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:49,160 Speaker 1: by name, and to insist that the crown tell them 1006 01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:53,080 Speaker 1: and the country who is this respute? And figure what 1007 01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:56,559 Speaker 1: is the source of his power? Is he operating on 1008 01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,040 Speaker 1: his own behalf? Does he represent some cabal of of 1009 01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:05,439 Speaker 1: mysterious figures? Uh? And is simply working to enrich them? 1010 01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,599 Speaker 1: Who is he? What is he doing? Um? And the 1011 01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:14,200 Speaker 1: country needs to know? This creates an enormous scandal and 1012 01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:18,960 Speaker 1: and introduces a rift now between the throne and the 1013 01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:23,479 Speaker 1: doom and the Parliament that leaves them at logger heads 1014 01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:27,280 Speaker 1: and only gets worse and worse in the final five 1015 01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:31,880 Speaker 1: years of the life of the dynasty. Really really happy 1016 01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:34,160 Speaker 1: to talk with that, goes. We loved his book, and uh, 1017 01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:36,280 Speaker 1: we're working on the show. We're loving it. So one 1018 01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:38,040 Speaker 1: of the one of the things that I that that's 1019 01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:43,320 Speaker 1: interesting amidst the rumors that are developing around Raspute, and 1020 01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:48,160 Speaker 1: especially the ones that are religious based, is that he 1021 01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:52,080 Speaker 1: he also routine these seems like he's surprised major religious 1022 01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:57,640 Speaker 1: figures along the way with how just normal Orthodox he 1023 01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,439 Speaker 1: was folks like theo Fan and fa Istraumov back back 1024 01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:06,400 Speaker 1: home in Bishop Alexei in what ways, how how typical 1025 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:10,240 Speaker 1: was Respute in terms of what an Orthodox Christian was 1026 01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:14,160 Speaker 1: like at that point? Well, you know, there were so 1027 01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,200 Speaker 1: many attempts to paint him as a as a heretic 1028 01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,840 Speaker 1: and uh dangerous sectarian and all that. And they're all 1029 01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:26,160 Speaker 1: these actual church investigations into his practices and beliefs, and 1030 01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,120 Speaker 1: even people who wanted to sort of you know, paint 1031 01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:31,040 Speaker 1: him in the in the in the worst of colors, 1032 01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,280 Speaker 1: were not able to do it. I mean, he he 1033 01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:37,280 Speaker 1: believed in the rights and the rituals. He attended UH 1034 01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:43,479 Speaker 1: services regularly, He followed the prayers, he followed the UH 1035 01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,559 Speaker 1: you know, the ritual and what have you. When he 1036 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,880 Speaker 1: preached the word, when he spoke the Word of the Gospels, 1037 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:54,599 Speaker 1: he literally was quoting directly from from scriptures and and 1038 01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,200 Speaker 1: so in this there wasn't in any sense that he 1039 01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:03,680 Speaker 1: was really perverting the message of the Church, was perverting 1040 01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:08,240 Speaker 1: the message of scripture. He was very much someone who 1041 01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:15,559 Speaker 1: UH ultimately tried to express the notion of love thy 1042 01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,120 Speaker 1: neighbor as thyself, UM and what have you. Now, of course, 1043 01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:25,280 Speaker 1: there's also this tension between the message his practice UH 1044 01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:28,240 Speaker 1: as an orthodox believer and the way he you know, 1045 01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,479 Speaker 1: treated women and something like that. And there's this huge 1046 01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:35,679 Speaker 1: gap and we still don't fully understand, you know, all 1047 01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:39,040 Speaker 1: exactly that what went on with women and there were 1048 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:43,120 Speaker 1: I think attempts at times, probably frequently with him to 1049 01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:51,919 Speaker 1: bend scripture and teaching for his own sexual uh goals. 1050 01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,360 Speaker 1: You know, he did not come up with this saying, 1051 01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:56,519 Speaker 1: even though it's often attributed to him. But you know, 1052 01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:01,479 Speaker 1: the notion that he who does not sin uh cannot repent, 1053 01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:04,719 Speaker 1: and he who does not repent cannot be saved. Thus, 1054 01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:08,280 Speaker 1: if we give ourselves into sin, we are thus leading 1055 01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:12,639 Speaker 1: ourselves to repentance and redemption and and being saved. This 1056 01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,920 Speaker 1: idea did not begin with him in Russian culture, um, 1057 01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,040 Speaker 1: but it does seem fair to say that he did 1058 01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:22,760 Speaker 1: use it, especially when he was trying to lure some 1059 01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:30,040 Speaker 1: woman into his bed. M hmmm. Can you tell us 1060 01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:34,960 Speaker 1: a bit about Varna and the process of his elevation 1061 01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:38,720 Speaker 1: to bishop. How big a part in that process did 1062 01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:42,800 Speaker 1: Respute and play. So one of the things that happens is, 1063 01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,719 Speaker 1: you know, originally coming up, Respute and woos the clergy. 1064 01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:52,400 Speaker 1: They're impressed by him, uh, they're convinced of the sincerity 1065 01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,840 Speaker 1: of his religious expression. Um. But then as that all changes, 1066 01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,080 Speaker 1: he he acquires a great deal of enemies with in 1067 01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,519 Speaker 1: the higher echelons of the Russian Orthodox Church, which you 1068 01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,639 Speaker 1: need to understand is a very much bureaucratic top down 1069 01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:11,880 Speaker 1: basically government run uh institution, and so they start coming 1070 01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:16,920 Speaker 1: after Resputin. So Resputents almost starts looking around for allies, defenders, 1071 01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:20,400 Speaker 1: and and wants to have them put in positions of 1072 01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:24,439 Speaker 1: power within the Russian Orthodox Church too, if you will 1073 01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:28,160 Speaker 1: guard him from his his enemies, and one of those 1074 01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:32,559 Speaker 1: is is Varnava, who was also born at peasant like him, 1075 01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:37,120 Speaker 1: had no real education, but was a powerful preacher um 1076 01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,880 Speaker 1: and then sort of makes his way slowly up the church, 1077 01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:45,759 Speaker 1: and Resputin decides that he wants Varnava to be appointed bishop, 1078 01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:49,080 Speaker 1: but the bishops are strongly against it because they don't 1079 01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:52,720 Speaker 1: think he's worthy of the title in the position um. 1080 01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:56,800 Speaker 1: But the one who can ultimately push this through is 1081 01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:01,200 Speaker 1: the Emperor, and Resputing, you know, inveigles his way in 1082 01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:06,880 Speaker 1: with Alexandra Nicholas and gets Nicholas against the wishes of 1083 01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:09,320 Speaker 1: the body known as the Holy Synod, which is sort 1084 01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:12,280 Speaker 1: of the ruling body of the church, to go ahead 1085 01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:16,400 Speaker 1: and make Varnava a bishop, which he later becomes UM. 1086 01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:21,720 Speaker 1: And again this this introduces this great rift and distrust 1087 01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:27,320 Speaker 1: between the official church and and Nicholas, which further undermines 1088 01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:36,160 Speaker 1: Nicholas and his power and authority. You know that in 1089 01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:43,000 Speaker 1: your book one of the especially related to Rasputin's religious mystique, 1090 01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:48,600 Speaker 1: um And and that persona that his reported power, his 1091 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:52,080 Speaker 1: reported power to heal, is one of the most salient 1092 01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:57,880 Speaker 1: aspects of his enduring persona. Did Rasputin ever claim that, 1093 01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:00,720 Speaker 1: like himself, claimed that he had the ability to heal? 1094 01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,599 Speaker 1: Or was that something that was attributed to him by 1095 01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,440 Speaker 1: others that some other that's a notion that was attributed 1096 01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:09,080 Speaker 1: to him um And. This was obviously one of the 1097 01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:12,080 Speaker 1: central questions I tried to to get at in my 1098 01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:15,280 Speaker 1: research for the book. He really doesn't go around saying 1099 01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:20,560 Speaker 1: I'm a faith healer. This is something that um arises, 1100 01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, out of his relationship with Nicholas. Now Alexandra 1101 01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:29,879 Speaker 1: and alex say the sun um and then get spread around. 1102 01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:34,920 Speaker 1: But people don't go to him necessarily to be healed 1103 01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,320 Speaker 1: of something. If if they're to be healed, it's it's 1104 01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:44,200 Speaker 1: it's of an emotional illness, an emotional spiritual injury. Um. 1105 01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:48,040 Speaker 1: That's really what sort of healing he he claimed to 1106 01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:55,599 Speaker 1: be able to offer to people. How important were some 1107 01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:59,719 Speaker 1: particular healing healings for Reciptent's relationship with the royal family 1108 01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:05,160 Speaker 1: partic the healing. Yeah, so that's one of the crucial 1109 01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:09,560 Speaker 1: moments in the relationship there. Um. It's at one of 1110 01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,440 Speaker 1: the hunting lodges and what is today modern day Poland 1111 01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,120 Speaker 1: and of Alexey goes out on a on a carriage 1112 01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:22,000 Speaker 1: ride and he's jostled about and this produces a bleeding episode, 1113 01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:26,320 Speaker 1: um in his leg and it becomes quite critical. The 1114 01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:28,800 Speaker 1: doctors are fussing over him. They don't know what to do. 1115 01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:31,800 Speaker 1: It's getting worse and worse. The boy is in excruciating pain, 1116 01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:35,880 Speaker 1: which is driving his parents, you know, utterly mad to 1117 01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:40,200 Speaker 1: see their their beloved son hurting so terribly. Um. It 1118 01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:42,559 Speaker 1: gets to the point where they're about to, you know, 1119 01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:44,800 Speaker 1: have a priest brought in for the last rites. They 1120 01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,320 Speaker 1: don't think that that alex A is going to survive. 1121 01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:53,160 Speaker 1: So as sort of a last ditch effort, Alexandra sends 1122 01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:58,960 Speaker 1: a cable telegram to Respute and who's home in Siberia, um, 1123 01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,879 Speaker 1: you know, for some sort of intercession, and he cables 1124 01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:06,599 Speaker 1: back and says, don't worry, your son will not die. 1125 01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:11,920 Speaker 1: God will take care. Do not obsess over the child 1126 01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:15,080 Speaker 1: and tell the doctors to leave him alone. I know 1127 01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:19,960 Speaker 1: that all will be well. And miraculously he was right, 1128 01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:23,759 Speaker 1: and he the boy was well. The boy does survive. 1129 01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:27,760 Speaker 1: And even the doctors were utterly confounded. They could not 1130 01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:29,760 Speaker 1: make sense of this. They could not explain it in 1131 01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:33,439 Speaker 1: the medical understanding that they had it at the time. 1132 01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:36,680 Speaker 1: But it's something that obviously I had to try to 1133 01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,360 Speaker 1: figure out, and others have tried to make sense of 1134 01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:42,719 Speaker 1: his You know, what was the relationship between rispute and 1135 01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:45,800 Speaker 1: and and the health of the Tzarevitch, the heir to 1136 01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:50,200 Speaker 1: the throne, And the way I kind of come down 1137 01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:54,439 Speaker 1: on it and think about it is, you know, the 1138 01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:59,160 Speaker 1: doctors were constantly poking and prodding um the boy when 1139 01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:03,120 Speaker 1: he was bleeding, which would have inhibited the clouding effect, 1140 01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:06,360 Speaker 1: which would have only made the bleeding worse. That's one factor. 1141 01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,280 Speaker 1: So Resputent in a sense was right by saying tell 1142 01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,960 Speaker 1: the doctors to go away and leave him alone. That 1143 01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:15,840 Speaker 1: was actually good medical advice for the time. And I 1144 01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:22,639 Speaker 1: think he also allowed Alexandra and inner calm in peace 1145 01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:27,080 Speaker 1: that all would be well. And I talked about this 1146 01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:28,920 Speaker 1: a bit in the book The Degree to which we 1147 01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:33,120 Speaker 1: really are only now really understanding sort of mind body wellness, 1148 01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:38,679 Speaker 1: and the degree to which maybe by calming Alexandra, that 1149 01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:43,679 Speaker 1: calm and confidence was somehow conveyed to little Alexey as well, 1150 01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:49,439 Speaker 1: and in some ways maybe maybe this helped aid the 1151 01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:53,200 Speaker 1: healing process. But it's also important to remember that that 1152 01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:59,200 Speaker 1: Resputent never healed or cured Alexey of hemophilia. He he 1153 01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,639 Speaker 1: was him if eliac his whole life. He died while 1154 01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,680 Speaker 1: still afflicted with hemophilia um. But it is true that 1155 01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,800 Speaker 1: he never did die of of a bleeding episode as 1156 01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:17,680 Speaker 1: long as Resputin was alive. And in the story, the 1157 01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:23,080 Speaker 1: speaking of wounds and healing respute, and of course is 1158 01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:28,160 Speaker 1: he's uh attacked many years before he's actually killed by 1159 01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:33,960 Speaker 1: Konya Guseva. Do we know much about how Nicholas and 1160 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:38,280 Speaker 1: Alexandra reacted in the immediate aftermath of that attack. That 1161 01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:42,000 Speaker 1: was one of the more bizarre and horrific moments in 1162 01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:45,720 Speaker 1: the life of Rasputin when he was back home in 1163 01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:49,640 Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen fourteen and Pakrovskaya and a strange 1164 01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:52,479 Speaker 1: figure came up to him, and he thought she was 1165 01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:55,439 Speaker 1: seeking alms, and he went to get his coin pers 1166 01:19:55,479 --> 01:19:57,799 Speaker 1: out and given her some money, and she plunged a 1167 01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:02,080 Speaker 1: fairly lengthy dagger into his abdomen, screaming, I've killed the 1168 01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:06,920 Speaker 1: anti christ. Um. That he survived this attack is truly miraculous. 1169 01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,600 Speaker 1: When word reached Nicholas and Alexander, they were on the 1170 01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:14,519 Speaker 1: Royal yacht sailing in the Baltic Sea. And what's amazing 1171 01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:16,760 Speaker 1: is is we know the day that Nicholas learned of 1172 01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:19,880 Speaker 1: it um, but he makes no mention that he had 1173 01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:23,839 Speaker 1: heard this or he was concerned about it in his diary, 1174 01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:26,200 Speaker 1: which is truly striking. The only thing he did was 1175 01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:29,160 Speaker 1: a day or two later send word that the police 1176 01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:33,240 Speaker 1: should make every effort to keep their friend, as they 1177 01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:36,679 Speaker 1: called Gregory, safe from any such further attacks. But it's 1178 01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:39,599 Speaker 1: it is strange that they did not express a truly 1179 01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:49,320 Speaker 1: grievous reaction at the time we come to. You know, 1180 01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,760 Speaker 1: the clouds are moving in right over, over bizarre and 1181 01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:55,920 Speaker 1: over resputing at this time, and that's the that's the 1182 01:20:56,040 --> 01:20:59,679 Speaker 1: term that the resputent uses in his menacing cloud letter. 1183 01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:04,599 Speaker 1: H What effect did that letter have on on Zar Nicholas? 1184 01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:10,519 Speaker 1: Unfortunately it didn't have enough of an an In fact, 1185 01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,479 Speaker 1: on the Czar. The famous letter that you're talking about 1186 01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:19,120 Speaker 1: was written by Rispute and while he lay in hospital 1187 01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:22,080 Speaker 1: in the city of two Men in Siberia, recovering from 1188 01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:27,519 Speaker 1: the attack by Gusheva Um and he knew that Europe 1189 01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:32,840 Speaker 1: was fast approaching war, and he was determined to keep 1190 01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,760 Speaker 1: Russia out of the war. And he was determined two 1191 01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:42,840 Speaker 1: convince Nicholas not to listen to his generals and ministers 1192 01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:47,320 Speaker 1: who were pushing him to go to war against Austria UM. 1193 01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:50,360 Speaker 1: And this letter is is truly remarkable. And the fact 1194 01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:53,240 Speaker 1: that the letter has survived and is now in the rare, 1195 01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:57,120 Speaker 1: rare bookroom and what the main library at Yale University 1196 01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:01,800 Speaker 1: is also somehow bizarre and strange. Uh. But he he 1197 01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:06,960 Speaker 1: foresaw it's prophetic. He foresaw that if Russia were to 1198 01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:12,080 Speaker 1: go to war, that it would lead to seas of blood, 1199 01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:18,280 Speaker 1: millions of innocent Russian peasants killed, and bloody slaughter. And 1200 01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:21,840 Speaker 1: he he pled with Nicholas in the most powerful and 1201 01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:26,360 Speaker 1: prophetic of terms, to to not go to war. And 1202 01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:28,200 Speaker 1: I always think it's one of those great what if 1203 01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:31,320 Speaker 1: moments in the history of the twentie centuries. What if 1204 01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:36,040 Speaker 1: Nicholas had listened to rerispute and and and not and 1205 01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:39,400 Speaker 1: not agreed with his generals, how the course of history 1206 01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:43,680 Speaker 1: might have been different. M do you want to take 1207 01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:49,160 Speaker 1: a run at reading it? Let me see, dear friend. 1208 01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:54,240 Speaker 1: I'll say again, A menacing cloud is over Russia, lots 1209 01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:57,680 Speaker 1: of sorrow and grief. It's dark and there's not a 1210 01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:02,000 Speaker 1: ray of hope, a sea of t years immeasurable. And 1211 01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:05,720 Speaker 1: as to blood, what can I say? There are no 1212 01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:10,479 Speaker 1: words indescribable horror. I know they all want war from you, 1213 01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:15,519 Speaker 1: evidently not realizing that this means ruin hard is God's 1214 01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:19,519 Speaker 1: punishment when he takes away reason. It's the beginning of 1215 01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,719 Speaker 1: the end. You are the czarar, father of the people. 1216 01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:27,160 Speaker 1: Don't allow the madness to triumph and destroy themselves and 1217 01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:31,760 Speaker 1: the people. Yes, they'll conquer Germany, But what of Russia? 1218 01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:35,719 Speaker 1: If one thinks, then truly, never for all of time 1219 01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:39,879 Speaker 1: has one suffered like Russia, drowned in her own blood. 1220 01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:45,160 Speaker 1: Great will be the ruin grief without end? Gregory, I 1221 01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:47,679 Speaker 1: was I was just gonna ask if you could, uh 1222 01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:52,960 Speaker 1: comment on on Rasputen's general perspective on war, because uh, 1223 01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:56,000 Speaker 1: it seems like he he brought that up more than one. 1224 01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:59,160 Speaker 1: That's another side to respute, and that that was new 1225 01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:02,000 Speaker 1: to me, that didn't come out in the previous biographies 1226 01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:05,360 Speaker 1: that I had read as that. And in this sense again, 1227 01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:07,559 Speaker 1: I think you can say that he really did hearken 1228 01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,680 Speaker 1: to the to the teachings of of the gospels. Is 1229 01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:15,160 Speaker 1: that he was He was ultimately a man of peace. 1230 01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:17,800 Speaker 1: Now that does not mean he was a man of 1231 01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:22,760 Speaker 1: good relations with individuals, but he was never someone who 1232 01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,840 Speaker 1: called for war, called for vengeance and what have you. 1233 01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:30,200 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, there were wars and the Balkans 1234 01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:34,080 Speaker 1: before World War One that led up to World War One, 1235 01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:39,320 Speaker 1: and he was very vocal at that time in nineteen twelve, 1236 01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:44,040 Speaker 1: for example, against going to to war, that war was wrong, 1237 01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:47,479 Speaker 1: that it went against the teachings of of the church, 1238 01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:51,760 Speaker 1: that it went against the message of Jesus christ um. 1239 01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:54,000 Speaker 1: And he was so vocal that there were a good 1240 01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:57,400 Speaker 1: many Russians who denounced him as some sort of traitor, 1241 01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:01,360 Speaker 1: that he was not a true patriot of Russia because 1242 01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:03,799 Speaker 1: he was counseling the czar against going to war against 1243 01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:10,839 Speaker 1: Russia's supposed enemies. Can you describe for us the scale 1244 01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:15,920 Speaker 1: of surveillance that was assigned to Rasputin in his later 1245 01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:20,519 Speaker 1: years from twelve on through nineteen sixteen, how many different 1246 01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:25,080 Speaker 1: agents were either watching him or watching out for him 1247 01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:30,800 Speaker 1: at any given time in that period. It is amazing 1248 01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:36,480 Speaker 1: the amount of resources that the Secret Police, the akarana 1249 01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:42,200 Speaker 1: Um and other police agencies directed towards resputing in the 1250 01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:46,639 Speaker 1: last you know, five or six years of his life. UM. 1251 01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:50,160 Speaker 1: A brief aside, I was allowed access to the police 1252 01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:51,920 Speaker 1: files on respute in which are kept in one of 1253 01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,680 Speaker 1: the major archives in Moscow, UM and they pulled them 1254 01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:59,360 Speaker 1: all out for me, and they literally measured, probably close 1255 01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:03,559 Speaker 1: to a meat or high thousands and thousands of pages 1256 01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,519 Speaker 1: of surveillance documents. UM. There was typically you know, dozens 1257 01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:10,120 Speaker 1: of agents that were tracking him at any one time. 1258 01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,000 Speaker 1: And not only were they tracking him, but they were 1259 01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:16,040 Speaker 1: tracking everybody that he came in contact with, and would 1260 01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:20,400 Speaker 1: would do investigations into his circle and his contacts and 1261 01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:23,960 Speaker 1: associates and what have you. And part of it was surveillance, 1262 01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:26,840 Speaker 1: but part of it was also after the summer of 1263 01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:30,439 Speaker 1: nineteen o fourteen, when he was almost murdered, supposedly they 1264 01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:34,360 Speaker 1: were also charged with keeping him safe from another such 1265 01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:39,080 Speaker 1: attempt on his life. So they're voluminous files UM of 1266 01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:43,920 Speaker 1: of investigations of surveillance UM and you could almost do 1267 01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:46,720 Speaker 1: a whole book just on on these documents, and it 1268 01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:54,479 Speaker 1: would probably make for some fascinating insights. You know that 1269 01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:58,040 Speaker 1: one of the UM one of one of the most 1270 01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:04,879 Speaker 1: UH incredible one often retold in incredible stories about Resciput, 1271 01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:08,439 Speaker 1: and is this this incident at the Yar, as it's called, 1272 01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:11,040 Speaker 1: but that it probably didn't happen the way that it's 1273 01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:14,720 Speaker 1: often been told. Can you walk us through that what 1274 01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:18,080 Speaker 1: like what actually is likely to have to have happened 1275 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:23,200 Speaker 1: at the Yard restaurant and how some such different versions 1276 01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:25,040 Speaker 1: of it have been have come down to us right 1277 01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:27,760 Speaker 1: what they The so called incident at the Yar is 1278 01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:33,400 Speaker 1: one of the iconic UH moments in the biography of Respute, 1279 01:27:33,400 --> 01:27:36,479 Speaker 1: and it's in every book on him UM and it's 1280 01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:40,400 Speaker 1: sometimes told in in somewhat different versions, but basically the 1281 01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:45,559 Speaker 1: the standard story is that UH in March of nineteen fifteen, 1282 01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:51,320 Speaker 1: Rescipute and took the train from uh Petrograd as Petersburg 1283 01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:55,160 Speaker 1: was now called, down to Moscow, where you met with 1284 01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:57,160 Speaker 1: some friends and one night they went out to this 1285 01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:02,320 Speaker 1: famous restaurant called the Jar, which had this uh gypsy 1286 01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:06,879 Speaker 1: choir and chorus and everything that he got outlandishly drunk, 1287 01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:10,840 Speaker 1: he started chasing the girls in the gypsy choir. Um, 1288 01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,400 Speaker 1: he started being rude and vulgar. Uh, and then it 1289 01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:19,240 Speaker 1: sort of culminated in him jumping up on the table, 1290 01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:25,679 Speaker 1: exposing himself, dropping his trousers, waiving his member around and 1291 01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:28,840 Speaker 1: and claiming in front of the astonished guests at the 1292 01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:32,640 Speaker 1: R restaurant that this was the altar at which the 1293 01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:36,960 Speaker 1: Empress worshiped, at which point the police were called and 1294 01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,640 Speaker 1: they dragged him, snarling and screaming and cursing out and 1295 01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:44,320 Speaker 1: put him into jail. Now this is the standard story 1296 01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:48,800 Speaker 1: that you'll read over and over and over. Uh. Some 1297 01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:53,080 Speaker 1: more recent defenders of resputing in Russia have claimed that 1298 01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:57,599 Speaker 1: the story is a lie, that Resputant was never there, 1299 01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:00,559 Speaker 1: and that that effect this was a double anger, a 1300 01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:04,760 Speaker 1: body double that resputants enemies had sent into the R 1301 01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:09,160 Speaker 1: restaurant to try to destroy him. Um. So I was 1302 01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:11,720 Speaker 1: obviously desperate to try to get to the bottom of 1303 01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:14,600 Speaker 1: the story when I was doing my research, and it 1304 01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:18,280 Speaker 1: was in fact in the police files in this archive 1305 01:29:18,360 --> 01:29:20,840 Speaker 1: in Moscow that I found the clues to sort of 1306 01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:25,960 Speaker 1: unlocking this riddle. Uh, once and for all. All of 1307 01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:27,720 Speaker 1: it is there in black and white, all of the 1308 01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:33,960 Speaker 1: surveillance reports. And indeed agents tracked Respute and from Petrograd 1309 01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:37,559 Speaker 1: to Moscow on the train in March. They followed him 1310 01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:40,840 Speaker 1: around literally by the minute. And indeed he did go 1311 01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:43,960 Speaker 1: to the r restaurant. But what's interesting is you read 1312 01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:47,439 Speaker 1: the policeman's report of what happened there. There was no 1313 01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:51,320 Speaker 1: talk of drunkenness. There's no talk of chasing chorus girls, 1314 01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:54,679 Speaker 1: gypsy chorus girls. There's no talk of you know, dropping 1315 01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:58,080 Speaker 1: his trousers and and waving his member around, and there's 1316 01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:00,360 Speaker 1: no talk of any arrest. In fact, they had dinner. 1317 01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:03,559 Speaker 1: He went back to someone's house. Uh. He did get 1318 01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:05,920 Speaker 1: drunk the next day and drove around with some friends, 1319 01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:08,400 Speaker 1: and then the agents followed him back to the train 1320 01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:12,160 Speaker 1: station and he went back to Petrograd. End of story. 1321 01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:17,320 Speaker 1: So the police send this report back to Petrograd, where 1322 01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:19,639 Speaker 1: it's read by the head of the Akarana, a man 1323 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:24,040 Speaker 1: named Vladimir Junkowski, who is the devout, sworn enemy of 1324 01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:26,240 Speaker 1: Resputin and is convinced that he is going to bring 1325 01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:29,320 Speaker 1: him down where others have failed. So he writes back 1326 01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:31,960 Speaker 1: to the chief of police and Moscow and says, yes, 1327 01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:35,080 Speaker 1: I've seen this report from the yard. Clearly this is 1328 01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:39,200 Speaker 1: a mistake. I'm sure something else must be missing and 1329 01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:43,639 Speaker 1: must have happened now in between the lines. The police 1330 01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:47,000 Speaker 1: in Moscow know what is being asked of them, and 1331 01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:50,519 Speaker 1: so you can see them start to generate after the 1332 01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:55,600 Speaker 1: fact new documents that purport all sorts of bizarre and 1333 01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:59,080 Speaker 1: disturbing elements that supposedly happened in the our restaurant, and 1334 01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:03,000 Speaker 1: they send these to you, to Junkovski and Petrograd, and 1335 01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:06,120 Speaker 1: he says, I still don't think you have the full story, 1336 01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:09,720 Speaker 1: and so they literally you know, quote unquote sex it up, 1337 01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:12,679 Speaker 1: if you will, to make it more outlandish and add 1338 01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:16,400 Speaker 1: all sorts of crazy elements to it, not only sexual stuff, 1339 01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,559 Speaker 1: but in fact that he was, you know, meeting with 1340 01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:24,320 Speaker 1: various uh shady uh figures who are involved in in 1341 01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:29,920 Speaker 1: vast graft and corruption schemes to defraud you know, the 1342 01:31:29,920 --> 01:31:32,719 Speaker 1: the National treasury of all sorts of millions and millions 1343 01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:35,960 Speaker 1: of rubles and what have you. And so finally they 1344 01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:40,520 Speaker 1: create this outlandish story on official police letterhead the Chinkwowski 1345 01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:46,919 Speaker 1: satisfied and then takes it to Nicholas, and Uh says, 1346 01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:51,240 Speaker 1: with faux sincerity, of how difficult it is for him 1347 01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:54,760 Speaker 1: to have to open the eyes of Nicholas to this 1348 01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:58,519 Speaker 1: horrible incident that had happened, But it is his duty 1349 01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:01,080 Speaker 1: as a servant of the Czar that he speaks the 1350 01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:05,360 Speaker 1: truth Uh, and presents these fake documents to to Nicholas. 1351 01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:08,880 Speaker 1: He shows them to Alexandra, and Alexandra says, this is 1352 01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:12,040 Speaker 1: this is total nonsense. And here Alexandra was right, this 1353 01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,479 Speaker 1: is a pack of lies, and I refuse to believe it. Uh. 1354 01:32:15,520 --> 01:32:19,320 Speaker 1: And so it again is then taken as proof that 1355 01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:23,120 Speaker 1: nothing can damage Resputing in the eyes of Nicholas and Alexandra, 1356 01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:25,879 Speaker 1: and he can go to any lengths he he wishes, 1357 01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:29,320 Speaker 1: and his place is secure. But in fact, he really 1358 01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:32,440 Speaker 1: never did anything wrong that night at the r restaurant. 1359 01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:35,880 Speaker 1: So there are lots of other rumors about Resputing at 1360 01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:40,120 Speaker 1: the time, especially about him being a spy, that crop 1361 01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:44,360 Speaker 1: up with the beginning of the second of the First 1362 01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:46,800 Speaker 1: World War. Can you tell us about what some of 1363 01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:51,320 Speaker 1: those rumors about Resputing the spy were? Well, it's interesting 1364 01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:55,439 Speaker 1: again you know, whatever, uh, the concerns of the day 1365 01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:59,519 Speaker 1: happened to be. Everyone wants to sort of trace the 1366 01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:02,479 Speaker 1: origin inspect to to respute and if before it was 1367 01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:06,960 Speaker 1: religious perversion and the downfall of morality, while it's got 1368 01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:11,000 Speaker 1: to be Resputants fault. Once the war gets going in 1369 01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:14,719 Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen, not only gets going, but gets going badly 1370 01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:17,160 Speaker 1: for Russia and they are not doing well in the 1371 01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:21,280 Speaker 1: war against German Austria, well then clearly who's to blame. 1372 01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:23,559 Speaker 1: And instead of, you know, looking to the obvious sources 1373 01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:28,559 Speaker 1: there there arises this idea and society that, aha, there 1374 01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:31,000 Speaker 1: must be traders in our midst who are selling out 1375 01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:34,360 Speaker 1: the country, selling out our war secrets and what have you, 1376 01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:38,880 Speaker 1: And they trace it all back to Resputing and to Alexandra. Alexandra, 1377 01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:43,600 Speaker 1: as you recall, is German by birth, um is extremely 1378 01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:47,920 Speaker 1: unpopular in Russia and many are convinced that she is 1379 01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:52,360 Speaker 1: given her nationality selling out Russia, that she's a trader 1380 01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:56,000 Speaker 1: to Russia, she's defending Germany, and that she's doing this 1381 01:33:56,280 --> 01:34:00,439 Speaker 1: together with Resputin, that the two of them are line 1382 01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:04,479 Speaker 1: together to to sell out Russia, that they are part 1383 01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:07,839 Speaker 1: of what become known as the quote unquote dark forces 1384 01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:16,599 Speaker 1: at work trying to undermine the Russian war effort. One 1385 01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:21,439 Speaker 1: of the things that I think often pops up in 1386 01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:26,400 Speaker 1: that regard, or a misconception perhaps, is that Respute and 1387 01:34:26,439 --> 01:34:30,000 Speaker 1: Alexandria were kind of Alexandra were kind of scheming to 1388 01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:32,880 Speaker 1: get Nicholas out of the capitol eventually when he goes 1389 01:34:32,920 --> 01:34:36,040 Speaker 1: off to the stavka Um. Is there any truth to 1390 01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:37,800 Speaker 1: that that they were trying to get him to leave 1391 01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:40,559 Speaker 1: to consolidate their own power, or is there they're more 1392 01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:42,880 Speaker 1: going now And in fact it's it's just the opposite 1393 01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:45,479 Speaker 1: dynamic that's that's going on, which is again one of 1394 01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:48,920 Speaker 1: the falsehoods that's sort of percolated through all the history 1395 01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:53,600 Speaker 1: about Respute. And is that exactly that that Nicholas um 1396 01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:58,880 Speaker 1: is purposely sent away to the supreme headquarters of the 1397 01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:04,080 Speaker 1: army known in in Russian astafka Um, so that Resputin 1398 01:35:04,200 --> 01:35:08,120 Speaker 1: and Alexandra, with Nicholas away, can seize the reins of 1399 01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:12,439 Speaker 1: government um and basically run the country at the same 1400 01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:14,799 Speaker 1: time as they work as traders to sell the country 1401 01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:17,360 Speaker 1: out to the Germans. In fact, it was just the opposite. 1402 01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:20,720 Speaker 1: They did not want Nicholas to go off to headquarters 1403 01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:25,760 Speaker 1: because they knew how impressionable he was, and that they 1404 01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:28,760 Speaker 1: knew that um, if Nicholas is going to be surrounded 1405 01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:32,240 Speaker 1: by his generals, he will do what they tell him 1406 01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:36,280 Speaker 1: to do. And they want him near them because they 1407 01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:40,240 Speaker 1: feel that their advice, their guidance and counsel is what 1408 01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:44,479 Speaker 1: should matter, and so they desperately want him to stay 1409 01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:47,360 Speaker 1: at the palace and not go off to headquarters. So 1410 01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:51,439 Speaker 1: it's in fact the opposite of what the long held 1411 01:35:51,520 --> 01:36:01,200 Speaker 1: view was. By nineteen fifteen nineteen sixteen, how heavily did 1412 01:36:01,439 --> 01:36:07,080 Speaker 1: raspute and figure, whether directly or indirectly, in a kind 1413 01:36:07,120 --> 01:36:12,160 Speaker 1: of a breakneck uh speed of ministerial sackings and appointments 1414 01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:17,000 Speaker 1: in the government. Maybe that would reinforce that idea about 1415 01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:20,800 Speaker 1: um Resputen and Alexander kind of pulling strings and that 1416 01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:24,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Well, there is by the last couple 1417 01:36:24,240 --> 01:36:27,480 Speaker 1: of years of the of the dynasty, this this phenomenon 1418 01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:31,200 Speaker 1: that becomes known as ministerial leap frog, where basically like 1419 01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:33,960 Speaker 1: one prime minister is being sacked a new one hired 1420 01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:36,519 Speaker 1: every other month. There's a there's a new head of 1421 01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:39,960 Speaker 1: the police, there's changes at the upper echelons, of the 1422 01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:43,920 Speaker 1: military and other UM posts in the government, Minister of 1423 01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:47,680 Speaker 1: Interior and what have you. UM, And everyone starts to 1424 01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:51,080 Speaker 1: assume that all of this is being done at the 1425 01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:55,320 Speaker 1: behest of resputing Um. It's more complicated than that, But 1426 01:36:55,400 --> 01:37:00,000 Speaker 1: it is true that by by those latter years risk 1427 01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:07,280 Speaker 1: Sputin is exercising more influence on ministerial appointments, has more 1428 01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:11,599 Speaker 1: opinion about these things, and Alexandra listens to him and 1429 01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:15,479 Speaker 1: tries to lean on Nicholas to make some of these changes. 1430 01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:20,320 Speaker 1: But what's important to remember is that part of the 1431 01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:23,760 Speaker 1: reason Resputint is doing this is he is very much 1432 01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:29,600 Speaker 1: fearful for his life. There have been several attempted assassination 1433 01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:35,880 Speaker 1: assassinations of resputing Um, and he is terrified that the 1434 01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:41,120 Speaker 1: people uh In charged with keeping him safe are in 1435 01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:43,599 Speaker 1: fact the ones that want him dead, and so he 1436 01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:48,400 Speaker 1: is very much UM leaning on Alexandra to make sure 1437 01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:50,760 Speaker 1: that the people they hire to be, for example, the 1438 01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:52,880 Speaker 1: head of the police or the Ministry of the Interior 1439 01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,479 Speaker 1: are in fact allies of his and not not enemies 1440 01:37:56,520 --> 01:38:03,640 Speaker 1: just waiting to do him in. You mentioned that there 1441 01:38:03,640 --> 01:38:09,080 Speaker 1: had been several attempts on his Resputin's life, Um, one 1442 01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:14,080 Speaker 1: of them came about from UH members of that he 1443 01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:18,040 Speaker 1: was into this kind of political troika with can you 1444 01:38:18,080 --> 01:38:20,360 Speaker 1: can you describe some of the outlines of that of 1445 01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:23,280 Speaker 1: that murder attempt? Right, So, there were several um plots 1446 01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:26,040 Speaker 1: and assassinations that were attempting to get against Respute in 1447 01:38:26,080 --> 01:38:29,720 Speaker 1: his lifetime. And one of the more bizarre UH was 1448 01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:32,160 Speaker 1: put together by the sort of the so called troika, 1449 01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:35,679 Speaker 1: the threesome, at the head of which was the Minister 1450 01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:39,920 Speaker 1: of Interior, man named Huastof, who in fact got the 1451 01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:43,840 Speaker 1: job as Minister UH claiming to be a defender of 1452 01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:47,080 Speaker 1: resputing and an ally of Resputin. But he very quickly 1453 01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:50,519 Speaker 1: then shifts to the other side to the competing camp 1454 01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:53,880 Speaker 1: and starts trying to dream up ways to to do 1455 01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:57,040 Speaker 1: in Resputin. He he plots to have him put on 1456 01:38:57,080 --> 01:39:01,040 Speaker 1: a train and sent off outside capital and then someone 1457 01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:02,880 Speaker 1: was going to come and pick him up and throw 1458 01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:06,679 Speaker 1: him off a speeding train. Um. There's attempts to put 1459 01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:10,160 Speaker 1: together a bottle of poison wine that he will drink 1460 01:39:10,200 --> 01:39:13,519 Speaker 1: and die um. And then together with a couple of others, 1461 01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:18,120 Speaker 1: he comes up with trying to lure iliad Or, who 1462 01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:22,200 Speaker 1: by this time has fled Russia for Norway to pay 1463 01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:27,679 Speaker 1: iliad Or sixty thou rubles if iliad Or could get 1464 01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:31,680 Speaker 1: some of his allies who are still in Russia to 1465 01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:39,040 Speaker 1: shoot and kill Resputing. Now this plotting gets very complex, 1466 01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:40,920 Speaker 1: and I go through it all in great detail in 1467 01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:43,880 Speaker 1: the book. It's really fascinating. It's like a bizarre sort 1468 01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:47,439 Speaker 1: of crime story. But it all comes to light before 1469 01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:51,400 Speaker 1: it can happen, and Huastov claims that no, no, no, 1470 01:39:51,439 --> 01:39:53,800 Speaker 1: I was never trying to kill Resputin. I was trying 1471 01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:56,920 Speaker 1: to out a plot to kill Rasputin. But in the 1472 01:39:57,040 --> 01:39:58,920 Speaker 1: end of the whole thing blows up in his face. 1473 01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:03,120 Speaker 1: But it it offers further proof to to Alexander and 1474 01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:06,799 Speaker 1: Resputing that even the people that they hire in place 1475 01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:10,720 Speaker 1: in positions of power to keep Resputing safe are in 1476 01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,160 Speaker 1: fact snakes in the grass who want him killed, which 1477 01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:18,200 Speaker 1: heightens the sense of of paranoia that is seeping through 1478 01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:22,320 Speaker 1: the court and Resputent's life in these final few years. 1479 01:40:25,080 --> 01:40:29,959 Speaker 1: You trace what you call resputens apotheosis to his interaction 1480 01:40:30,040 --> 01:40:35,400 Speaker 1: with Petrograd Governor General Obolensky in nine Can you describe 1481 01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:38,800 Speaker 1: that interaction and what it implies concerning like the level 1482 01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:44,960 Speaker 1: of power to which Resputin had actually ascended at that point, right. 1483 01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:48,599 Speaker 1: So I call it the pathiosis because it seems to 1484 01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:52,160 Speaker 1: me that this interaction that he has with with Abelnski 1485 01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:57,639 Speaker 1: at the time signified just the degree to which he 1486 01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:02,840 Speaker 1: had gone in being able to manipulate uh, Nicholas and 1487 01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:09,680 Speaker 1: Alexandro when he felt it was necessary. Abeliansky, Prince. Abeliansky 1488 01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:15,280 Speaker 1: came from one of the great aristocratic families of Russia. Um. 1489 01:41:15,400 --> 01:41:20,120 Speaker 1: These were the families that basically were the pillars of 1490 01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:25,280 Speaker 1: the Romanov dynasty. These were the families that literally ruled 1491 01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:31,200 Speaker 1: the country alongside the Romanovs, great wealth, great power, UH 1492 01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:34,200 Speaker 1: and prestige, the kind of people who never would have 1493 01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:39,400 Speaker 1: allowed a peasant into their into their office or room 1494 01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:45,240 Speaker 1: or palace. And Rasputin felt that that Abelynsky was not 1495 01:41:45,400 --> 01:41:48,040 Speaker 1: doing his job. In part, he felt that Abelianski was 1496 01:41:48,080 --> 01:41:50,479 Speaker 1: not doing a good enough job to make sure there 1497 01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:53,280 Speaker 1: was a steady UH supply of food being brought to 1498 01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:56,719 Speaker 1: the capital. And in this Resputent was was was correct 1499 01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:01,720 Speaker 1: and and onto something. So he he went to Aboliansky 1500 01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:05,679 Speaker 1: um and you know, upbraided him for not doing his job. 1501 01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:09,800 Speaker 1: And Abolanski became very obsequious and basically threw himself at 1502 01:42:09,800 --> 01:42:12,840 Speaker 1: the mercy of respute and you know, insisting that you 1503 01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:15,920 Speaker 1: know he had done everything that Resputin had ever wanted. 1504 01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:19,840 Speaker 1: He pulled out letters, uh that Resputent had sent him 1505 01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:23,200 Speaker 1: request various favors and what he han't said, I've always 1506 01:42:23,240 --> 01:42:25,800 Speaker 1: followed these to the law, and whatever you wanted, I've 1507 01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:29,479 Speaker 1: given you. Um. But the fact that he could speak 1508 01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:33,320 Speaker 1: this way to someone like Abeliansky, upbraid him and criticize 1509 01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:36,200 Speaker 1: him and then basically lead to Abeliansky's downfall a few 1510 01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:39,679 Speaker 1: months later shows just uh, in my opinion, the ultimate 1511 01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:42,360 Speaker 1: pinnacle of power that that he had reached by early 1512 01:42:42,439 --> 01:42:47,880 Speaker 1: nineteen sixteen. Can you describe for us Felix Yusupov's character 1513 01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:51,240 Speaker 1: and personality and what his his family and upbringing were 1514 01:42:51,280 --> 01:42:55,559 Speaker 1: lie So, Prince Felix u super was a member of 1515 01:42:55,560 --> 01:43:01,160 Speaker 1: one of the great aristocratic families of Russia UH centuries 1516 01:43:01,200 --> 01:43:06,640 Speaker 1: of extreme wealth and power and prestige UM one of 1517 01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:11,240 Speaker 1: the truly one of the richest most powerful families in Russia. UM. 1518 01:43:11,320 --> 01:43:14,240 Speaker 1: His parents had had doated on his older brother who 1519 01:43:14,320 --> 01:43:16,720 Speaker 1: was killed in a duel, and then all of their 1520 01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:21,920 Speaker 1: attention and devotion, especially from his mother, Princess Zinaida, were 1521 01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:26,719 Speaker 1: showered upon Felix. He was doated on, he was spoiled. Um, 1522 01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:31,320 Speaker 1: he was indulged. Uh. He was you know, sort of 1523 01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:36,160 Speaker 1: the worst, I would say, examples of the of debauched 1524 01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:39,839 Speaker 1: aristocracy in the early part of the twenty century. Nothing 1525 01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:42,639 Speaker 1: was expected of him. It was a life of glamor, 1526 01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:48,760 Speaker 1: of Champagne. Of uh, he was a notorious um. Uh. 1527 01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:52,760 Speaker 1: What should I say, boy about society if you will? 1528 01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:55,439 Speaker 1: At the time, who really had no purpose in life 1529 01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:58,879 Speaker 1: until he decides that he is going to save Russia 1530 01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:02,519 Speaker 1: by killing Respute and putting together a plot to do 1531 01:44:02,720 --> 01:44:05,120 Speaker 1: him in, And this becomes, if you will, his e 1532 01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:08,479 Speaker 1: day fixed, this becomes his raised on Detra, and he 1533 01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:12,240 Speaker 1: devotes all of his energies and times to figuring out 1534 01:44:12,280 --> 01:44:18,479 Speaker 1: how he's going to do away with Resputing. One of 1535 01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:23,720 Speaker 1: the challenges of knowing what happens, and you describe this, 1536 01:44:23,920 --> 01:44:28,160 Speaker 1: is that the accounts we have of Resputin's eventual murder 1537 01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:32,520 Speaker 1: come to us from the people involved in the deed. Um. 1538 01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:35,640 Speaker 1: What sort of picture of Rasputin does your soup of 1539 01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:39,440 Speaker 1: paint in his account of the assassination plot? How trustworthy 1540 01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:42,559 Speaker 1: is he has a source for information concerning Resputin or 1541 01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:47,400 Speaker 1: the murder. That kind of thing. Well, that's what struck 1542 01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:51,760 Speaker 1: me Um working on the book, is that for so 1543 01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:55,479 Speaker 1: long our image of Resputing as a person, his life 1544 01:44:55,479 --> 01:45:00,400 Speaker 1: and experiences, and especially as death comes from books that 1545 01:45:00,439 --> 01:45:05,080 Speaker 1: were written not just by his enemies, people like Eliador, 1546 01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:08,479 Speaker 1: but from the man who murdered him in cold blood, 1547 01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:12,559 Speaker 1: from your soup of Um. So much of the myth 1548 01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:16,680 Speaker 1: of risputants murder, which is something that everybody seems to 1549 01:45:16,720 --> 01:45:22,240 Speaker 1: know in some sort of detail, comes from your soup 1550 01:45:22,240 --> 01:45:28,479 Speaker 1: as memoirs, Um. And I always found it odd that 1551 01:45:28,520 --> 01:45:31,439 Speaker 1: we had taken the words of a cold blooded killer 1552 01:45:31,840 --> 01:45:35,400 Speaker 1: at face value and never questioned them for what they 1553 01:45:35,439 --> 01:45:42,400 Speaker 1: really were. Um. You sup As memoirs are sort of 1554 01:45:44,000 --> 01:45:48,280 Speaker 1: network of lies, the tissue of have truths and and 1555 01:45:48,280 --> 01:45:53,360 Speaker 1: and an attempt to bade himself in glory, if you will, 1556 01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:57,439 Speaker 1: for a truly horrible deed. Like the only moment I 1557 01:45:57,439 --> 01:45:59,799 Speaker 1: think in his memoirs when he's ever really being honest 1558 01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:03,640 Speaker 1: is when you super frights that that killing Rasputin was 1559 01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:08,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote a cowardly crime, for that is what it was, Um. 1560 01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:11,280 Speaker 1: He depicts himself. He super does as like sort of 1561 01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:16,000 Speaker 1: Saint Michael slaying the dragon. He depicts Rasputin as a 1562 01:46:16,040 --> 01:46:19,400 Speaker 1: man that was impossible to kill um, that he had 1563 01:46:19,439 --> 01:46:23,919 Speaker 1: sort of superhuman power in him, that he was Satan himself. 1564 01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:27,160 Speaker 1: And in fact, in the various versions of the memoirs 1565 01:46:27,200 --> 01:46:33,720 Speaker 1: that you super frights he and each one exaggerates the 1566 01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:37,799 Speaker 1: impossibility of killing Rasputin with each retelling of the tale 1567 01:46:38,320 --> 01:46:41,639 Speaker 1: that you know they beat him, they poisoned him, uh, 1568 01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:44,960 Speaker 1: they shoot him, he refuses to die, that they dump 1569 01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:47,320 Speaker 1: him in a hole in an icy branch of the 1570 01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:51,599 Speaker 1: Nyeva river, and even then he still breathes his last 1571 01:46:51,680 --> 01:46:53,640 Speaker 1: and tries to make the sign of the crossed, and 1572 01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:57,479 Speaker 1: eventually only dies of drowning. I mean, this is all 1573 01:46:57,600 --> 01:47:01,200 Speaker 1: just a pack of lies that you soup of told 1574 01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:06,080 Speaker 1: to make himself feel better, to aggrandize himself, and quite frankly, 1575 01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:08,400 Speaker 1: to earn money, because he was now living in in 1576 01:47:08,520 --> 01:47:12,160 Speaker 1: exile after the revolution in Europe, and it had no 1577 01:47:12,200 --> 01:47:14,599 Speaker 1: way to make a living other than to keep retelling 1578 01:47:14,640 --> 01:47:18,120 Speaker 1: the story of how he had killed Resputin Um. An 1579 01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:23,320 Speaker 1: ultimate fact, there was probably never any poison um, And 1580 01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:27,360 Speaker 1: in point of fact, we know from photographs uh taken 1581 01:47:27,400 --> 01:47:30,320 Speaker 1: at the autopsy of Resputin's body after it was pulled 1582 01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:33,080 Speaker 1: from the ice, that he was shot three times at 1583 01:47:33,120 --> 01:47:36,320 Speaker 1: close range, twice in the torso, and a third and 1584 01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:40,080 Speaker 1: final time at point blank rage, right into the middle 1585 01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:43,439 Speaker 1: of his forehead. Resputin was more than dead when they 1586 01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:52,280 Speaker 1: finally dumped his body into the icy river. One of 1587 01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:55,400 Speaker 1: the one of the theories that has been floated. I 1588 01:47:55,400 --> 01:47:58,240 Speaker 1: had never heard this before until reading your book, that 1589 01:47:58,240 --> 01:48:02,640 Speaker 1: anybody had ever floated this was uh Um, that the 1590 01:48:03,320 --> 01:48:07,120 Speaker 1: murder of Resputant was in some way orchestrated or planned 1591 01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:12,400 Speaker 1: by the British government. Uh how is how is there 1592 01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:15,839 Speaker 1: any credence to that idea? This notion that the English 1593 01:48:15,920 --> 01:48:20,240 Speaker 1: were involved has an old history, and in fact actually 1594 01:48:20,760 --> 01:48:23,640 Speaker 1: first sort of bubble up to the surface right in 1595 01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:29,360 Speaker 1: the first days after the murder, that um, British intelligence 1596 01:48:29,439 --> 01:48:35,280 Speaker 1: agents were in some way connected to the killing of Resputing. 1597 01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:40,200 Speaker 1: Part of the story goes back to the idea discredited 1598 01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:43,439 Speaker 1: false notion but that was widely believed at the time, 1599 01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:47,840 Speaker 1: was again that Resputing was a spy, that Resputent and 1600 01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:53,719 Speaker 1: Alexandra were basically working with the German government, and we're 1601 01:48:53,800 --> 01:48:58,520 Speaker 1: trying to get Russia to leave the war um and 1602 01:48:58,520 --> 01:49:02,600 Speaker 1: and conclude a separate piece Germany. Now, obviously the English 1603 01:49:02,960 --> 01:49:06,880 Speaker 1: were very much worried about Russia leaving the war because 1604 01:49:06,920 --> 01:49:09,960 Speaker 1: they needed Russia to maintain an eastern front in the 1605 01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:13,400 Speaker 1: battle against Germany. And so the theory goes was that 1606 01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:18,000 Speaker 1: British agents killed Resputant as a way to prevent some 1607 01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:21,679 Speaker 1: sort of peace treaty between Russia and Germany. Now, there's 1608 01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:24,520 Speaker 1: no truth in any of this, and there's no reality 1609 01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:28,000 Speaker 1: that this ever happened, um, But there have been been 1610 01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:32,000 Speaker 1: books written about it, there have been documentaries made about it, 1611 01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:36,040 Speaker 1: and there's even been this theory put forward that if 1612 01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:40,759 Speaker 1: you look at the the bullet hole in resputants head, 1613 01:49:41,800 --> 01:49:46,640 Speaker 1: that the markings around the whole proved that it was 1614 01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:51,080 Speaker 1: a bullet fired by a British gun, by an endfield 1615 01:49:52,040 --> 01:49:57,200 Speaker 1: UH pistol, and that this means that whoever fired the 1616 01:49:57,240 --> 01:50:00,240 Speaker 1: fatal shot was a British agent. Well, first of all, 1617 01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:05,640 Speaker 1: you know the whole Trader secret peace treaty is nonsense. 1618 01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:09,600 Speaker 1: Second of all, the idea that you can read what 1619 01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:14,160 Speaker 1: kind of gun killed Respute and based on the markings 1620 01:50:14,160 --> 01:50:17,000 Speaker 1: in his forehead is just not really supported by the facts. 1621 01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:22,040 Speaker 1: And third, something I found in the police files in Moscow, 1622 01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:26,240 Speaker 1: which was truly enlightening for me, was that not only 1623 01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:32,200 Speaker 1: did British officers use end field pistols during World War Two, 1624 01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:36,320 Speaker 1: but so did Russian officers. They were also using them 1625 01:50:36,320 --> 01:50:39,400 Speaker 1: as a side arm during World War One. And in fact, 1626 01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:42,800 Speaker 1: one or more of the agents in the Ahran of 1627 01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:46,840 Speaker 1: the Secret Police who were tasked with guarding Resputin had 1628 01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:51,559 Speaker 1: been issued and field uh pistols as side arms. So 1629 01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:54,519 Speaker 1: even if it was an Endfield that fired the fatal shot, 1630 01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:59,479 Speaker 1: we don't know who was holding that gun. UM. I 1631 01:50:59,520 --> 01:51:02,519 Speaker 1: won't go into more detail. I try to unpack all 1632 01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:05,799 Speaker 1: of this in the book. UM. I think the British 1633 01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:09,760 Speaker 1: probably wanted respute and dead, UM, but I don't think 1634 01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:14,280 Speaker 1: there's anything to really conclusively prove that they were in 1635 01:51:14,360 --> 01:51:17,280 Speaker 1: any way involved in the killing. So just a few 1636 01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:22,240 Speaker 1: more questions to wrap us up. UM. After Gregory was killed, 1637 01:51:22,320 --> 01:51:27,000 Speaker 1: his daughter Maria found another letter among his belongings, another 1638 01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:31,479 Speaker 1: letter that we could call prophetic. UM. Would you want 1639 01:51:31,479 --> 01:51:35,600 Speaker 1: to read that for us, my dear, A disaster is 1640 01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:40,920 Speaker 1: threatening us, A great misfortune is drawing near the face 1641 01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:45,080 Speaker 1: of our lady has darkened, and the spirit is disturbed 1642 01:51:45,120 --> 01:51:48,799 Speaker 1: in the calm of the night. This calm will not last. 1643 01:51:49,640 --> 01:51:53,760 Speaker 1: Terrible will be the wrath. And whether shall we flee? 1644 01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:58,519 Speaker 1: Start over? And whither shall we flee? It is written, 1645 01:51:59,120 --> 01:52:02,960 Speaker 1: Watch for ye know neither the day nor the hour. 1646 01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:06,800 Speaker 1: This day has come for our country. There will be 1647 01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:11,560 Speaker 1: cries and blood. In the great darkness of these griefs. 1648 01:52:12,040 --> 01:52:16,080 Speaker 1: I can now distinguish nothing. My hour will soon strike. 1649 01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:19,719 Speaker 1: I am not afraid, but I know it will be bitter. 1650 01:52:20,320 --> 01:52:23,439 Speaker 1: I shall suffer, and it will be pardoned to men. 1651 01:52:24,360 --> 01:52:28,240 Speaker 1: I shall inherit the kingdom, But you will be saved. 1652 01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:32,200 Speaker 1: The road of your sufferings is known to God. Men 1653 01:52:32,320 --> 01:52:37,200 Speaker 1: without number will perish, Many martyrs will die, Brothers will 1654 01:52:37,240 --> 01:52:41,479 Speaker 1: be slain by their brothers. The earth will tremble, famine 1655 01:52:41,560 --> 01:52:47,400 Speaker 1: and pestilence will reign. Signs will appear to men. Pray 1656 01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:50,839 Speaker 1: for your salvation, and through the grace of the Savior, 1657 01:52:51,600 --> 01:52:57,160 Speaker 1: and have her who intercedes with him, you will be consoled. Gregory, 1658 01:53:00,640 --> 01:53:05,880 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Yeah. Just so. Of course, the 1659 01:53:06,240 --> 01:53:10,160 Speaker 1: question that that everybody probably asks at some point, uh 1660 01:53:11,200 --> 01:53:15,280 Speaker 1: to what extent uh in in uh to what extent? 1661 01:53:15,360 --> 01:53:18,680 Speaker 1: Was respute and responsible for the fall of the Romanovs 1662 01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:21,960 Speaker 1: and the imperial and imperial Russia. Well, I came away 1663 01:53:23,000 --> 01:53:25,840 Speaker 1: after six years of research and writing and thinking about 1664 01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:31,000 Speaker 1: Respute and um, you know, seeing him as this great scapecoat, 1665 01:53:31,479 --> 01:53:34,000 Speaker 1: sort of one of the great scapegoats of history. And 1666 01:53:34,000 --> 01:53:36,600 Speaker 1: it's not to deny his faults. It's to not to 1667 01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:39,880 Speaker 1: deny him of responsibility for things that he did to 1668 01:53:40,040 --> 01:53:45,680 Speaker 1: further the demise of the of the autocracy. Um. But 1669 01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:49,479 Speaker 1: everyone wants to put it all on his shoulders. Um. 1670 01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:53,920 Speaker 1: It was. It was strange to just read account after 1671 01:53:53,960 --> 01:53:58,320 Speaker 1: account after account um of people who were part of 1672 01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:00,960 Speaker 1: Russia at the time, in the government, meant, in the army, 1673 01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:03,160 Speaker 1: at court, and they all want to place it on 1674 01:54:03,280 --> 01:54:06,520 Speaker 1: resputing shoulders, as if as if it hadn't been resputing, 1675 01:54:07,240 --> 01:54:09,280 Speaker 1: none of this would have happened. There would have been 1676 01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:11,960 Speaker 1: no war, there would have been no revolution, there would 1677 01:54:11,960 --> 01:54:14,400 Speaker 1: have been no downfall of the dynasty. And that's so 1678 01:54:14,479 --> 01:54:18,400 Speaker 1: utterly simplistic and incorrect that I hope, if nothing else 1679 01:54:18,439 --> 01:54:21,000 Speaker 1: I can, I can move us off of this simplistic 1680 01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:24,560 Speaker 1: way of thinking about him and his role, uh and 1681 01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:30,519 Speaker 1: his place in history. That's great. Our last question would 1682 01:54:30,520 --> 01:54:32,600 Speaker 1: have been, what do you hope that listeners and readers 1683 01:54:32,680 --> 01:54:34,560 Speaker 1: every book will take away? But I think you've just 1684 01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:39,400 Speaker 1: answered that. Um. So, Douglas, thank you so much for 1685 01:54:39,560 --> 01:54:44,360 Speaker 1: joining us on Unobscured Sam. Yes, thank you so much. 1686 01:54:44,400 --> 01:54:47,120 Speaker 1: This has been amazing to be able to chat with 1687 01:54:47,160 --> 01:54:49,000 Speaker 1: you after reading your book. It's this is a great 1688 01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:52,280 Speaker 1: great thanks for the opportunity to talk. Um. It's uh, 1689 01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, he's one of these figures that I think 1690 01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:59,760 Speaker 1: will always hold out great fascination for us. Um And 1691 01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:03,480 Speaker 1: I've you know, devoted all these years trying to plumb 1692 01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:05,960 Speaker 1: his depths, and I took it as far as I 1693 01:55:05,960 --> 01:55:08,120 Speaker 1: could go, but I don't think we'll ever really get 1694 01:55:08,160 --> 01:55:10,040 Speaker 1: to the deep dark bottom of it all. But it's 1695 01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:14,480 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to explore, to think about, discuss, and um, 1696 01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:20,720 Speaker 1: it's been great having the opportunity to talk with you. Great. Yeah, 1697 01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:23,680 Speaker 1: thank you. Well, we don't want yeah, we don't want 1698 01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:25,320 Speaker 1: to take any more time than you than you have, 1699 01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:28,600 Speaker 1: so um, yeah, you just you have our gratitude and uh, 1700 01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:32,080 Speaker 1: thanks for the book, Thanks for the talk. Thanks, let 1701 01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:35,000 Speaker 1: me know when it comes together. I look forward to hearing. Yeah. 1702 01:55:35,080 --> 01:55:37,320 Speaker 1: We'll keep you in the loop and Zack, thanks again 1703 01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:39,400 Speaker 1: for your work, Thanks for doing the recording on that side. 1704 01:55:40,960 --> 01:55:44,960 Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode of Unobscured. Stick around 1705 01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:48,240 Speaker 1: after this short sponsor break for a preview of what's 1706 01:55:48,240 --> 01:55:54,960 Speaker 1: in store for next week. And then there's a period 1707 01:55:55,000 --> 01:56:00,640 Speaker 1: of disillusionment with the people and disillusionment with the results 1708 01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:05,240 Speaker 1: of that revolution of nineteen o five, and many intellectuals 1709 01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:10,320 Speaker 1: who had been Marxists or liberals begin to but especially Marxists, 1710 01:56:10,760 --> 01:56:15,040 Speaker 1: begin to turn away from from materialism and they are 1711 01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:21,120 Speaker 1: drawn to to idealism. They're drawn to religion. They are 1712 01:56:21,400 --> 01:56:26,480 Speaker 1: frustrated with the political world, and they they look for 1713 01:56:26,600 --> 01:56:32,040 Speaker 1: other other forms of of meaning and identity and so 1714 01:56:32,120 --> 01:56:36,440 Speaker 1: on as the as the political situation becomes less and 1715 01:56:36,560 --> 01:56:53,880 Speaker 1: less free. After nineteen o six nine seven. Unobscured was 1716 01:56:53,960 --> 01:56:57,360 Speaker 1: created by me Aaron Manky and produced by Matt Frederick, 1717 01:56:57,440 --> 01:57:00,680 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Josh Thane in partner ship with I 1718 01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:05,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, with research by Sam Alberty, writing by Carl Nellis, 1719 01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:08,880 Speaker 1: and original music by Chad Lawson. Learn more about our 1720 01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:13,200 Speaker 1: contributing historians, source materials, and links to our other shows 1721 01:57:13,320 --> 01:57:17,560 Speaker 1: over at grim and Mild dot com. Slash unobscured and 1722 01:57:17,680 --> 01:58:01,840 Speaker 1: as always, thanks for listening. Four