1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: M On May nineteenth, nineteen seventy five, a money owner 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: salesman named Harold Frank was leaving a Cleveland, Ohio convenience 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: store when two men demanded his briefcase. When he resisted, 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: they clubbed him in the head with a pipe, threw 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: acid in his face, and fatally shot him twice in 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: the chest. The store's co owner, Anne Robinson, saw the 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: whole thing go down, and she suffered a bullet wound 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: before the men sped off in a green car with 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: four hundred twenty five dollars. Then a busload of school 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: children were dropped off on the corner, and one local boy, 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: Eddie Vernon, ragged to his friends that he had seen 12 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: the murder and knew who did it, his neighbors Ricky 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: Jackson and the Brethren brothers Wileye and Ronnie. The three 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: young men were arrested and young Eddie Vernon identified them. 15 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: At each one of their trials, all three jurys found 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: Eddie Vernon more credible than the wounded store owner Anne Robinson. 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: This case is it's like a it's like a glaring 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: example of everything that can go wrong and that does 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: go wrong in our criminal legal system. But before I 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: get off on a tangent here, because this case makes 22 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: me so angry, I'm going to introduce our guests we 23 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: have with us today. The man himself, Kwame a Jammu, 24 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: formerly known as Ronnie Bridgeman. Kwame served decades in prison 25 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: for a crime he had nothing to do with, but 26 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: he's here today, standing strong. Kwame. We're very honored to 27 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: have you here on the show today. 28 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: And with him, there is a man named Terry Gilbert. 30 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: Terry is a renowned criminal defense and civil rights attorney 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: as well as a community activist, and importantly he's a 32 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: death penalty abolitionist. And I am absolutely thrilled and honored 33 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: to have you here as well. Terry, thanks for joining us. 34 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: Thanks Jason, I appreciate it. 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So, Kwame, I'm going to start with you. You 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: were born Ronnie Bridgeman and grew up with your brother Wiley, 37 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: as well as your childhood friend and later co defendant, 38 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: Ricky Jackson, who's been on the show before. We'll have 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: his episode linked in the buyout. But anyway, I've invited 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: you here to give your own unique side of this story. 41 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning. You all grew up 42 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: on the same block, same street, right we did. 43 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, three holes is apart. 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: In Kuyahoga County, right. 45 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, Kyhoga County. 46 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: And people that listen to the show have heard so 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: many cases from Kuyahoga County because it's arguably the epicenter 48 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: of the whole wrongful conviction world, which is there's a 49 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: lot of competition for that awful distinction. But tell us 50 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: about Kyahoga County. Where is it? What's it like? 51 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: So? Kuyahoga County is more effects known as Cleveland, Ohio, 52 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: and that is the city within the jurishdiction of Cuyahoga County. Cleveland, 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 3: Ohio is a cesspool, if you will. We have three 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: different sides to it. All of those sides are policed 55 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: very heavily, as Kerry will let you know in a 56 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 3: few when you talk. But I was born in nineteen 57 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: fifty seven, so my youth in Cleveland was through two riots, 58 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: sixty seven and sixty eight riots, all infused by the poor, 59 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 3: the disadvantaged, redlined people, people who had been segregated for 60 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 3: so long it just was tired of being poor. 61 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 4: The situation on the streets of Cleveland and the black 62 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 4: community were horrific in the sixties and the seventies as 63 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 4: it was across the country, and assassination of Martin Luther King, 64 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 4: Robbie Kennedy, they're so called riots that were happening in 65 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 4: that context. There was a war against the black community. 66 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 4: And we had a mayor in the city of Cleveland, 67 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 4: the first African American mayor in the country of a 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: major city, named Carl Stokes, who was elected during this period. 69 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 4: And the police unions were not very happy about a 70 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 4: black mayor who was attempting to come up with some 71 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 4: reforms that would deal with the issues that were happening 72 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 4: at the time in the black community. 73 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: But those reforms never. 74 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 4: Took hold because of the resistance of the establishment, the 75 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 4: police union, the political climate. 76 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: The Cleveland police force was indeed a faction to deal 77 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 3: with it that particular time. They were beyond corrupt, and 78 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 3: as history will show, they're still corrupt to this day. 79 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 3: And so I come up in that, you know, I 80 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: come up in the apthampa that actually because I was 81 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: seventeen years old in nineteen seventy five, when all of 82 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: this happened to me. 83 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: So you're still really a kid, You're a teenager, and 84 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm sure where you had dreams and aspirations like every 85 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: other seventeen year old kid in the country. And I 86 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: know Ricky Jackson and your brother Wiley had already both 87 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: been through the military at this point. So what were 88 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: your plans for the future. 89 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: I tell people all the time that I wanted to 90 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: be a cop. Wow, I had big aspirations and how 91 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 3: do you say, ideologies of how police worked, And it 92 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: was either going to be a cop or a fireman. 93 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: And in the end, in nineteen seventy five, on that 94 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 3: terrible day May nineteenth, nineteen seventy five, and mister Harold 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 3: Franks entered our neighborhood there in fair Hill and Cedar 96 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 3: and lost both his liberty in his life. And I 97 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: became one of the suspects, and then one of the accused, 98 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 3: and then one who was sentencing convicted to die at 99 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 3: just seventeen years old, I had no understanding of how 100 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 3: these people who I supported as a child growing up 101 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: and who I wanted to emulate could do such a 102 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 3: thing to me. 103 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: And this particular crime fifty nine year old white guy 104 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: of Harold Franks, who was a money oral salesman, and 105 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: when he left the neighborhood grocery store on Fairhill Road, 106 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: he was confronted by two men demanding his briefcase. That's 107 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: two not three. When he resisted, they clubbed them in 108 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: the head with a pipe and splashed acid in his face. 109 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: One of the robbers then shot him twice in the 110 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: chest and fired a shot through the glass front door 111 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: of the store. Mister Franks obviously died, and fifty eight 112 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: year old Anne Robinson, who was a coalner the store, 113 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: was shot once in the neck but miraculously survived, and 114 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: the two robbers fled with the briefcase. They got away 115 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: with about four hundred and twenty five dollars. It's really 116 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: sad when you think of that. So life is so cheap. 117 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: In this case, four lives were so cheap. The two 118 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: robbers they got into a green car parked down the 119 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: street and escaped. Now I'm gonna ask a stupid question, quimet, 120 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: did any of you guys have a green car? 121 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 3: No, my brother did own a black and white plymous Slaberine. 122 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 3: They did find that green car, somebody had it and 123 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: everything in the yard all that nothing came of it. 124 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: And it sounds like a very organized type of a crime, 125 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: like maybe even a professional criminal who knew that this 126 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: money order guy was going to be there through acid 127 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: in his face. What would a seventeen year old kid 128 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: who wants to be a copy doing with acid and 129 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: I mean and a gun in this case, let us 130 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: not forget this case wasn't a complicated one. They had 131 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: the green car, they had suspects. They also had Missus Robinson, right, 132 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: didn't Missus Robinson know you guys, yeah right? So here 133 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 1: it is. She's just been shot and she's the only 134 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: one who actually saw the perpetrators. And we know I 135 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: would his identification is unreliable, but not when you know 136 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: the people, right, right, So think about it. So why 137 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: don't you fill the audience in on how these guys 138 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: became the sole focus of these people who ultimately framed 139 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: them for this crime. 140 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 4: In addition to the climate that existed at the time. Specifically, 141 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 4: what happened was a twelve year old boy named Eddie 142 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 4: Vernon who was on a bus coming home from school 143 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 4: at the time, and the shooting occurred. The bus was 144 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 4: in some proximity to the store down about a block away, 145 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 4: And when they got off the bus and they saw 146 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 4: the commotion after the shooting, they started talking and one 147 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 4: kid says, well, I bet you I know who did it, 148 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 4: and he referred to the nicknames of Ricky, Kwa Man 149 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 4: and Wileye. So that's stuck in this kid, Eddie Vernons 150 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 4: mine at twelve years old. Maybe he should tell the 151 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 4: cops who he thinks might have done this horror for crime. 152 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: Eddie Vernon, I've known him since he was a small kid. 153 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 3: My brother went to school one of his sisters, and 154 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: we knew the family. Plus he was a paperboy in 155 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: the neighborhood. Anyway, on that particular day, May nineteen, nineteen 156 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 3: seventy five, myself and Ricky Jackson was just down the 157 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 3: street at the other end of Bartot Street talking with 158 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 3: a guy by the name of Lynn Garrett and his girlfriend, 159 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 3: and we decided to walk around the corner to the store. Now, 160 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 3: mind you, the store that we decided to go to 161 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 3: is not the store in question of so, and the 162 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 3: way to the store we stopped at, unbelievably, Edwar Vernon's 163 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: house and his two sisters, Darlene and Susan, were sitting 164 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 3: on the porch upstairs, and we began to you know, 165 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: shoot the shit, talking to him, and a car pulls up. 166 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: Inside the car, of course as their father, Eddie, hisself, 167 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 3: and a young girl by the name of Rose Brown. 168 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 3: So they opened the window and tell us that hey, 169 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: it's a man up there at the store shot. So 170 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 3: boogey boogey boogie. We wait for the girls to come 171 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: down and we all go up to the store. Sure enough, 172 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: mister Frankens laying on the ground dead. Cops was everywhere right, 173 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 3: you know, asking people who had seen this, who had 174 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 3: seen that that anybody's seen it unbeknown to any of us. 175 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 3: Young aunt with Vernon, you know, raised his hand and 176 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 3: said I did I did you know, to which they 177 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 3: took him in immediately. 178 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: At this point, they were only looking for two assailants, 179 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: not three, so they took Edward down to the police 180 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: station without his parents to get a statement that was 181 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: more faithful to the crime scene. And remember, like Terry said, 182 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: Edward's pardon, this just started off as I bet you 183 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: I know who did it. 184 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 4: They went and started feeding him more details of the crime, 185 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 4: creating a narrative to the point when they pushed him 186 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 4: to say, well, these are the guys that you saw 187 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 4: commit this murder, which we know now is impossible because 188 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 4: other people on the bus we interviewed to show that 189 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 4: there was no way Eddie could have seen this from 190 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 4: that position. So they take the kid in he's twelve 191 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 4: years old, They scare him, they manipulate him to sign 192 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 4: a statement, and about a few days later they brought 193 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 4: him back and they wanted him to look at a lineup, 194 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 4: and he's told the police, well, I don't really know who, 195 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 4: if they did it or not, And one of the 196 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 4: detectives got upset and started pounding his fist into a 197 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 4: table and threatened Eddie that if he did not sign 198 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 4: the document pointing to these young men, that they would 199 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 4: arrest his parents. Of course, none of this was known 200 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 4: back then. 201 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 3: You know, later on we would find out that his 202 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: mother had Ovarian Canton was dying, and so you know, 203 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 3: you asked yourself, who would you choose, guys in the 204 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 3: neighborhood or your mother, you know. So he came out 205 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 3: of that interrogation room, and obviously he wanted to say 206 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: what he thought was his mother from being put in 207 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: the prison toward him, and so he went along with 208 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: the details that had been written in. 209 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: So May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five. They've now heard 210 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: what they wanted to hear, or they've forced Edward to 211 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: say what they wanted to hear, and they're now ready 212 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: to take this to the next level and go arrest 213 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: kids who I believe they knew were innocent. They had 214 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: the green car, they had suspects. Had they even wanted 215 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: to do just a tiny bit of actual police work, 216 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: they probably would have landed on the two guys who 217 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: actually did this. 218 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 4: The whole investigation took about a week. There were other 219 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 4: suspects that were far more viable in terms of who 220 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 4: did this crime, suspects that were older, I think even 221 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 4: had a green car, and that had committed other similar 222 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 4: crimes that was not disclosed to the defense console before 223 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 4: the trial. 224 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: There were at least six other men who had been 225 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 3: simultaneously picked up, arrested, and put into Cuyahoga County jail. 226 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: But they ignored these other viable avenues and took the 227 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: easy route with a coerced twelve year old boy. And 228 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: at that point they were only looking for two assailants, 229 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: so their narrative only named Ricky and Wilie, but you 230 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 1: Kwame were soon written into the story after the night 231 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: that they scooped all three of you up again. This 232 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: was May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five. The three of 233 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: you had been out that night together and Ricky was 234 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: sleeping over at your house when the cops busted his 235 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: door down, and when they didn't find Ricky, they dragged 236 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: his parents out onto the front lawn with guns to 237 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: their heads. 238 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 3: That's exactly what happened at my house. 239 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 2: You know. 240 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 3: I was sound asleep and I felt something hitting my foot. 241 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 3: I locked up, cops everywhere, guns pointed, But I didn't 242 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: think about myself, my safety and none of that, because 243 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: I knew that my mother was in the next room. 244 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: And my mother all of my life had suffered from 245 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 3: heart trouble, which is what she died from, a massive 246 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 3: heart attacked in nineteen ninety. But I just voted past 247 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: the cops and got into the room where my mother 248 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: was at There was more cops and guns, and I 249 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: let them have it. Man. I was saying everything to him, right, 250 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: so the guy snatched me up. I'll never forget, you know, 251 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 3: and he said, sorry, it's what you want to do 252 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 3: with this one, you know this one, and he said 253 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: take him on down. We'd figured out later they had 254 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 3: arrested me for obstruction police. This and on the way 255 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 3: downtown was when they realized that I was seventeen. So 256 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 3: they had to divert going to the county and go 257 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: over to juvenile. And it was only after that they 258 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 3: wrote me into the story. 259 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: So, as the summer of seventy five was coming to 260 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: a close, You, Wiley, and Ricky were all tried separately. 261 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: He went in front of Judge John Angelata and the 262 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: chief prosecutor at that time, John T. Corrigan, had been 263 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: in office since nineteen fifty six and also presided over 264 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: the wrongful conviction of Tony Ipanovitch and god knows how 265 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: many others. But the trial prosecutor was Dominic del Baso. 266 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: So what did he present? 267 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 4: Basically, what we had is the three guys lived in 268 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 4: the neighborhood were young black men, no physical evidence, no 269 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 4: evidence other than that this twelve year old boy testified 270 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 4: and the jury believed him. 271 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: It's really madness when you think about they were relying 272 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: on obvious lives. I mean, the kid contradicted himself. Vernon 273 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: originally told police he was on the bus coming home 274 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: from school when he saw the attack. Then later on 275 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: he testified that he had actually gotten off the bus 276 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: already when he saw the attack. That's pretty hard to 277 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: have both of those things be true. And then there 278 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: was a sixteen year old neighborhood girl parents myth. She 279 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: testified that she walked into the store just before the 280 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: attack and saw two men, not boys, two men outside 281 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: the store, and she went on to say that neither 282 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: of the two men were any of you three guys. 283 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: They were not Jackson, they were not the Bridgeman brothers. Also, 284 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: several of Eddie Vernon's classmates testified that he was on 285 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: the bus with them when they heard the gunshots, and 286 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: that none of them were able to see the robbers. 287 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: And the defense also presented witnesses who said that you 288 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: Klaume were elsewhere at the time to crime with your 289 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: brother and another friend, were wrapping up a basketball game. 290 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: And then there was Anne Robinson back to her, so 291 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: she testified she was shot in the neck by a 292 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: bullet that went through the store's front door, but she 293 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: was unable to entify the robbers even though she saw them, 294 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: and even though she knew you guys. 295 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 3: Well, she said, I know them boys backwards forwards running 296 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: away because they would come and work for me and 297 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 3: my husband in the store. She said, believe you me, 298 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 3: I wanted to get the person responsible for killing mister 299 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 3: Franks and shooting me in my neck. But it wasn't now, 300 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 3: you know, And that that says a whole lot, because 301 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 3: she could have been on that train, you know. Ultimately 302 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 3: her husband started paying it to the Edward Vernon thing. 303 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 3: But missus Robinson, the wife, heals fast to the fact 304 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: that now and kids didn't do that. 305 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 4: But it was the testimony of Eddie Vernon which carried 306 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 4: the day. The jury obviously thought, well, why would this 307 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 4: kid make it up? You know, And so that was 308 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 4: the ticket to death row. 309 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: So he would perfetuate this story not three but four 310 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 3: times because Wiley my brother got a retrial and went 311 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 3: back and they sunk him again and put him in 312 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: the exact same sale death row that they had originally 313 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: put him in. 314 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: So now we go to September twenty seventh, nineteen seventy five, 315 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: fatal day. Did you hold out any hope at this 316 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: point you had seen a lot already, but did you 317 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: have any did you think that they would still see 318 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: through all of this nonsense. 319 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 3: I gave up the ghosts. When the judge himself, he 320 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 3: was instructing the jury. Now listen, because Edward burning up 321 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 3: know how to spell certain words and can't differentiate east 322 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 3: from west doesn't mean he's a liar. Doesn't mean that 323 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: when he says that him and he pointed to me, 324 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 3: is guilty, you see. So in my mind, he had 325 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 3: already convinced that jury that I was fucking guilty, you know. 326 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: So when they came in, now I'm looked up. They 327 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 3: all looked down, you know. The women was holding their 328 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 3: little skirt tails and you know how to do. And 329 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 3: I say, okay, here we go, you know yeah, And 330 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 3: when I came back to the reality of what was 331 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 3: happening to me, I heard him say, until you are dead. 332 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 3: That's all I fucking heard until you I did. 333 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by Ohio Justice and 334 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: Policy Center, a nonprofit law firm that seeks justice for 335 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: people to directly impact it by Ohio's criminal legal system. 336 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: OJPC provides free legal services to currently and formally incarcerated people. 337 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: Through its Beyond Guilt Project, OJPC works to free, over 338 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: punish people who have rehabilitated themselves. Ojpc's Second Chance clinics 339 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: help individuals with criminal records remove barriers to employment and 340 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: house it. Ojpc's Human Rights and Prison Project represents people 341 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: who face denial of medical care. In its twenty five 342 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: year history, OJPC has worked at the policy level and 343 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: won numerous victories in Ohio, including ending juvenile life with 344 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: that Parole and exempting seriously mentally ill people from the 345 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: death penalty. To learn more about Ohio Justice and Policy 346 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: Center and how you can support its mission, visit OHIOJPC 347 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: dot org. That's Ohio JPC dot org, Ohio Justice and 348 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: Policy Center. We don't write people off. 349 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: So that morning, you know, the ride as they call it, 350 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 3: they came in and got me and they give me 351 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 3: a one nine fifty three, something that is embreded in me. 352 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: I'll never forget. Once I actually got to death role, 353 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 3: it became one sale all day, every day. They stripped me, 354 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 3: oh man, storry, calling me girl, little sweetie, and all that, 355 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 3: making me bend over and spreading my butt cheeks. All 356 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 3: that stuff I never you know, know nothing about. But 357 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: here's one that I'll never forget either. Jason, Before we 358 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: go to my cell. We go to the end of 359 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: the rings and I got introduced IACSI saw the chair 360 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 3: this shot. They gonna be waiting on you. Boy, she 361 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 3: gonna rade you good well. 362 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, the idea that your mom lost 363 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: two of her babies that were kidnapped by the police 364 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: and then planned to be executed by the state is 365 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: as a type of pain that I don't think anybody 366 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: who's not experienced they could ever even begin to imagine, 367 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: and that that is just a tragedy on the tragedy. 368 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: But and here you were on death row down the 369 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: hall from your own brother, like you could. Were you 370 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: guys able to see each other or just hear each 371 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: other or how did that even work? 372 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: You know, everybody's hollering, screaming, so we could do that. 373 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 3: We passed notes and this that, but one hour out 374 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: of the twenty four hours that we weren't in the sale, 375 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: and that hour, of course you got to go take 376 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 3: a shot and walk them down the range and you know, 377 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 3: pass messages for guys. So we got, you know, that 378 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 3: little time to see each other in passing on the 379 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: rains like that as well as. 380 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: Ricky and luckily, miraculously for you, Wiley, Ricky, and all 381 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: the other guys on Ohio death throughout. A critically important 382 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight Supreme Court decision came along. 383 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 3: Right, So, this was that famous Sondra Lockett case where 384 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 3: she filed against the constitutionality of how everyone was sentenced 385 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: that particular time, that if you got premeditated murder, you 386 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 3: got sentenced to die. Every judge across the state was 387 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 3: using the same application she filed, and she won, and 388 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 3: that released everyone that had been previously sentenced to die. 389 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: Right. This case challenged what factors could be considered by 390 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: the judge of jury when weighing whether or not to 391 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: impose the death penalty, and so what they found unconstitutional 392 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: In Layman's terms, the state had the ability to list 393 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: unl un limited reasons why the death penalty should be 394 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: applied in your case, but there was a very small 395 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: number of mitigating factors that were allowed to be presented 396 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: by the defense. 397 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 4: The US Supreme Court struck down the Ohio death penalty 398 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 4: law as they did in other jurisdictions, and then there 399 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 4: was a wave of new death penalty statues that came 400 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 4: in where there was more attention to how a jury 401 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 4: would consider the aggravated circumstances versus mitigating factors. So they 402 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 4: got off of death row and went into general population. 403 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: Right, So each of you were re sentenced to life 404 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: sentences with the possibility for parole. 405 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 3: That happened in August of seventy eight. But yeah, there 406 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: was an exception there. An exception was my brother, because 407 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 3: this was the time that he had went back for 408 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: the new trial. 409 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: Right, your brother was granted a new trial, reconvicted and 410 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: sent back to death row, only to await the paperwork 411 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: that would see him into general population with the same 412 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: sentence as the rest of you a year or so later. 413 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: And Edward Vernon, fifteen years old at the time, had 414 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: testified for a fourth time at that new trial. But 415 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: I understand that his resolve began to waver after that, 416 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: as it had at the lineup before they threatened to 417 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: put his sick mother in prison. 418 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: As time went on, he would go and try to 419 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: recanish stirring, always to the same cops, always to the 420 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 3: same two cops that had him hooked up in that 421 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 3: interrogation room in the first place. 422 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was detectives Eugene Terpe and James Farmer. 423 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: And of course, they would pat him on his back 424 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 3: and soothe it over. And long came his life where 425 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 3: he started getting into trouble and did a prison sentence itself. 426 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 3: And I would imagine that's long about the time that 427 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 3: he stopped, you know, trying to be helpful in the 428 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: sense of, you know, telling the. 429 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: Truth, which unfortunately kept that truth hidden for far too long. 430 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, you were all in general population 431 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: now and eventually eligible for parole, so you built a 432 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: solid record inside. 433 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 3: I was very active in sports. I can really box. 434 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: But one of the things that I did in Lucasville 435 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 3: more than anything, was barber But I got out of Lucasville. 436 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 3: I went to Lima Correction Institution in nineteen eighty four 437 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 3: because Lima had transitioned from being the state hospital, so 438 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 3: so half of the joint was still medicated. It was nothing. Therefore, 439 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 3: it was no recreation. Most of all, it was no school. 440 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 3: And so that's where I excelled. Had a few call hosts, 441 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 3: its about nine of us actually, and we took that 442 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 3: proposition to the administration, and the guy, his name is 443 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 3: David Nell, demand that would become the principal of school, 444 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 3: and that we opened the school, and I became administrative 445 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: clerk and I did that until I was actually parolled 446 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 3: from Richland Correction Institution in two thousand and three, which 447 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 3: is very hard to do for somebody to come from 448 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: death row doing a life sentence and then go through 449 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 3: the just a mere fact that I arbitrated education in 450 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 3: that school to so many men, thousands of men got 451 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: at least at least a ged while I was running 452 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 3: because I wouldn't let him not get it. But now, 453 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: mind you, I had got a five year and then 454 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 3: at ten year continuance, so it an't like I just 455 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 3: walked to it. I was doing time, but I was 456 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 3: also doing something constructive and that was educational. 457 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: So even though this was parole and not exoneration, tell 458 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: us about your newfound freedom in two thousand and three. 459 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,719 Speaker 3: Oh great, The very first day was like I was 460 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 3: floating to make it even sweeter. You know. Months later 461 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 3: I would meet the greatest thing that ever happened to me, 462 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: which was my wife, Lashan Ajamul, you know, and I 463 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 3: married her a year after I got out of prison. 464 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Now that you were out, you were on 465 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: a mission to clear all of your names in free 466 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,239 Speaker 1: Wiley and Ricky from prison, and Wiley had actually been 467 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: paroled the year before, but was soon sent back because 468 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: of none other than Eddie Vernon. 469 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 4: Wiley was at the City Mission while he was on 470 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 4: parole and runs into Eddie, who was working there as 471 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 4: a I guess a security guard. They exchanged some words, 472 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,479 Speaker 4: no threats or anything like that. He says, man, why 473 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 4: don't you do something about it, you know, go to 474 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 4: the authorities. And he says, ah, you know, I'm afraid 475 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 4: they're going to prosecute me for perjury and all this 476 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 4: stuff is Somehow that conversation got to the parole board 477 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 4: and they looked at it as a guy on parole 478 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 4: intimidating a witness from his crime, so they flopped him 479 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 4: and sent him back until twenty fourteen when he was 480 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 4: exonerated Jesus Christ. 481 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: So Eddie Vernon held on to his guilty secret for 482 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: another eleven or twelve long years, right, and by now 483 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: he reached out to Terry for help. 484 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 3: I remember this talk. He said, we need to some 485 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 3: kind of way put more light on the subject, you know, 486 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 3: And he told me about this kid, twenty four year 487 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 3: old kid named Kyle Swinson who wrote for the Cleveland 488 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 3: Scene magazine. So when I met with this kid, I 489 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 3: came back to tell my wife like, well, damn, I've 490 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 3: been in jail on this cat been alive. But man, listen, 491 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 3: Kyle went into that neighborhood, and to this day, I 492 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: don't know how he retrieved the information that he did, 493 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 3: but he came back to me talking about things that 494 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 3: I'd never heard of, you know, like, for instance, the 495 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: situation with Edward and his mother, and just on and 496 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 3: on and on, you know. And so when about time 497 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 3: we circle back around to Terry. You ever see the 498 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 3: picture of the snowball coming down that hill, it just 499 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 3: started getting bigger. And the next thing I know, my 500 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 3: wife worked at a spot over here in the West Side, 501 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 3: and one of the ladies worked there with her went 502 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 3: to the same church with atwar Vernon, and so she 503 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 3: told my wife, and my wife told me, and I 504 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 3: reached out to the pastor. So he did what I 505 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 3: guess anybody would do. Well, let me take into this 506 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 3: and I'll get back to you, you know, And so 507 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 3: I tell cow Man, no go, you know, So Kyle 508 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 3: get on him. So now this is two people calling him, 509 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 3: and this is making him like wow. In the meantime, 510 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 3: edw Vernon had a nervous breakdown. He's in the hospital 511 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 3: and so it's fast it goes to see him. 512 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 4: I remember this scene at the hospital with the pastor 513 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 4: and he said to Eddie, is there something that you 514 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 4: want to tell me? 515 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 2: You're in the hospital. 516 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 4: You know, obviously we hope everything works out, but is 517 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 4: there something on your mind? 518 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: You want to get off your chest? 519 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 4: And he then breaks down sobbing and basically admits that 520 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 4: he had lied in the trial and he put three 521 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 4: innocent men in prison. And you know, the Innocence Project 522 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 4: was representing Ricky Jackson. They sent over somebody to get 523 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: an affi David, which was the foundation for the motion 524 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 4: for a new trial, which then took place in November 525 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 4: of twenty fourteen. At the hearing before Judge mcmonagall, Eddie 526 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 4: took the stand and was an incredible witness. The prosecutors 527 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 4: tried to impeach him, cross examined him, and he deflected 528 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 4: any challenge and there was a break in the hearing 529 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 4: and the prosecutors came in and they said, Judge, we 530 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 4: concede that he should get a new trial. And then 531 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 4: in the same hearing they said they're dismissing the murdered indictments, right. 532 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: I understand that the prosecutor in twenty fourteen, Timothy McGuinty, 533 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: was not an unreasonable man. 534 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 4: That was a different prosecutor than we have now. Now 535 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 4: we have a prosecutor doesn't believe in wrongful incarceration. He 536 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 4: doesn't believe that people should get compensation. But the one 537 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 4: that we had back in twenty fourteen saw that there 538 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 4: was no evidence that. 539 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: They were the perpetrators. 540 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 3: So Ricky actually called me that day that he got exonerate, 541 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 3: the very moment my wife breaks that went bad on 542 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 3: the truck. It's a friend of mine and I was 543 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 3: changing the brakes and I'm up under the car and 544 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: my phone rang, so, you know, put it on speaker 545 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 3: and you have a collect call, you know. That's what 546 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 3: they said. It's Ricky. So, so what's going on? Brother? 547 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: You know? 548 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 3: And he's almost incoherent, you know, because so he's so ecstatic, 549 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 3: you know, And I said what he said? I said, 550 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 3: I'm free. 551 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: It's all over. 552 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 3: You know, you break down and start crying. I said, 553 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: what the fuck you say? 554 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 2: You know? 555 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 3: He said, man, it's all over, God damn you heav 556 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 3: me you know, and uh Man almost dock the damn 557 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 3: car down. 558 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: Ricky was on a Wednesday. 559 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 4: We didn't want Wiley to spend even one day more 560 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 4: than he had to, and we were able to get 561 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 4: before the judge on Friday, and Wiley was exonerated. And 562 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 4: I'll never forget when Wiley comes out of the jail 563 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 4: doors into the lobby. These two guys, the moment that 564 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 4: they hugged was one of the most emotional and ratifying 565 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 4: moments of my life as a lawyer. 566 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure that moment is etched in your mind and 567 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: your soul as well. 568 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 3: Without a doubt. 569 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 4: And so Ricky was exonerated, then two days Wiley, and 570 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 4: then a month later we were able to get Klombe exonerated. 571 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 3: But thinking about both my brother Wyley and Ricky Jackson 572 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 3: haven't spent thirty nine years. These guys had lost so 573 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 3: much time. When I got out of prison again parole, 574 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 3: I had an eleven year run, no matter how fucked 575 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: up it was, I still had an eleven year life 576 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 3: without them, And to this day I feel kind of 577 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 3: bad about that. You know, had I had a wife 578 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 3: went through seven cars, right, so as a man, as 579 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 3: a human being, as a person. I wasn't able to 580 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 3: make that equal, and I always feel something there, you know. 581 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: Kind of like a survivor's guilt, right. And so even 582 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: though no amount of money could ever replace what you 583 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: all lost, you were all at least finally eligible for 584 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: state compensation. You also won your civil suits against the 585 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: city and the estates of the detectives. But then life 586 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: took a dire turn again. Your brother Wiley had lung cancer, 587 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: and if that wasn't enough, another tragedy struck. 588 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 3: He had accident, had an auto accident, and it called 589 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 3: someone's life. He was already in bad shape in and 590 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 3: out of the hospital. He actually had an oxygen tank 591 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 3: in the car with him prior to his death. He 592 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 3: would like have caughing spells and pass out. And so 593 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 3: I believe that that's what happened to him on the 594 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 3: night and questioned. He was driving his car late at night, 595 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 3: rode by a construction site, end up hitting two guys, 596 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: and rolled for another four miles before you a car 597 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 3: come to a stop. One of the guys that he 598 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 3: hit passed away. Oh god. And the very next year 599 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 3: he was gone, Wow. 600 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: That's so much, It's just too much, and I'm so sorry, 601 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: and our condolences of course to the family of that 602 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: construction worker as well. So I guess if there's a 603 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: silver lining to this story, it's that you two were 604 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: there for each other in prison and did have a 605 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: number of years of freedom together before his passing. And 606 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: during that time, all three of you guys, as well 607 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: as your wife, Lashawn, have been quite active in a 608 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: movement that is near and dear to my heart, which 609 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: is death penalty abolition. 610 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 3: My wife is a member of the OSSI, which is 611 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: Ohio Wants to Stop Executions nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight. 612 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 3: I think it was her brother was murdered, and so 613 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 3: she is also a family Victim's member. She do a 614 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 3: lot of advocating for the people having family members being 615 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 3: murdered and how the system leaves them. And I am 616 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 3: very active with their organization OSSI, as there is with 617 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 3: my organization, Witness to Innocence. I'm the chairman of Witness 618 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 3: to Innocence. All of our board, with the exception of 619 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 3: the two volunteers, are death Road exaneries and we have 620 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 3: been key in the twenty one states that have about 621 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 3: us still stop using capital punishment in the United States 622 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 3: and then there's also what we're doing here to stop 623 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 3: the capital punishment in the state of Ohio. 624 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: Let me just read you something here from the Death 625 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 1: Penalty Information Center. This is a quote. In February twenty 626 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: twenty one, a special report the Innocence Epidemic found that 627 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: Kyahoga ranked second among US counties, tied with Philadelphia. We 628 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: know how bad that is. That's me talking now. But 629 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: back to the quote. For the most exonerations of death 630 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: row prisoners who have been wrongfully convicted, all of those 631 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: wrongful convictions involved police or prosecutorial misconduct or both. Brian 632 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: Stevenson estimates at about ten percent of people on death 633 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 1: thrower in acent and of course most of those people 634 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: end up being executed. So it's fair to say that 635 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: we execute innocent people in this country one out of 636 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: every ten. Now I think it's higher. So my question 637 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: is for anyone who still believes in the death penalty, 638 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: are you okay with executing innocent people? That's what I'm 639 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: going to leave our audience with is I continue to 640 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: hope that Ohio soon joins the states who have seen 641 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: the wrong of having the option of capital punishment. So 642 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: that said, we're going to be linking in the bio 643 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: to the organizations that you mentioned, Ohions to Stop Executions 644 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: or Atziotse and of course Witness to Innocence. Another thing 645 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: I want to shout out for listeners is Ricky's movie. 646 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: This is a mind blowing piece of film. It's called 647 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: Lovely Jackson. I can't stop thinking about it. It's amazing. 648 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: So we're going to have that linked in the bio 649 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: as well. And one last thing, Terry, I understand you 650 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: wrote a book. 651 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 4: The name of the book is Trying to Trying Times, 652 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 4: a lawyer's fifty years struggle fighting for. 653 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: Rights in a world of wrongs. 654 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 4: It goes back to the late sixties, early seventies up 655 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 4: until twenty twenty one. It's really about inspir wh wereing 656 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 4: younger activists and lawyers to take up the fight for 657 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 4: people's rights. 658 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,479 Speaker 1: Well, I'll be linking that in the bio as well 659 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: and grabbing a copy myself. So now we've come to 660 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show. Of course, it's called 661 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: closing arguments, and this works very simply. First of all, 662 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to thank you guys Terry Gilbert and Kwameajamu 663 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: for being here and courageously sharing your story. So here's 664 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: how it works. I'm going to turn my microphone off 665 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: for closing arguments, kick back in my chair, and just 666 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 1: listen to anything else you guys want to share with 667 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: me and our incredible audience. Terry, let's start with you, 668 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: and then Kwame, I'll take us off into the sunset. 669 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 4: The movement has grown against wrongful imprisonment. It's important for 670 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 4: people to be aware that the system is flawed, that 671 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 4: trials are not the end of justice, that things go wrong, 672 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 4: and people need to understand the nature of the criminal 673 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 4: system and fight for what is a better avenue to 674 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 4: achieve justice. 675 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 2: Also, I just. 676 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 4: Want to make a note that I don't even know 677 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 4: if kwameans this. I mean, this is the first public 678 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 4: mention of it. But we are starting a wrongful conviction 679 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 4: clinic at Cleveland State University Law School in the fall. 680 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 4: The Ohio Innocence Project has done a great job and 681 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 4: they're located in Cincinnati, and we need one in our community. 682 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 3: I just want to say that with Terry Gilbert, the 683 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 3: Innocence Project, and all of the many women who stand 684 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 3: in force to protect those who are down trodden and 685 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 3: who have been subjugated and arbitrarily and capriciously put in 686 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 3: prison for absolutely no reason. I am one who will 687 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 3: stand in every corner that the fight is going on, 688 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 3: a gang's capital punishment, wrong for incarceration and the cohots 689 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 3: which institute that policy. So I say to you, my brother, 690 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 3: thank you so much, thank you for having us today, 691 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 3: and I want to remind the country that we are 692 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 3: survivors and that just like Terry Gilbert, I will be 693 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 3: here tomorrow to Mark's. 694 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I want to 695 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor hall Any, Chelsea, Lyla Robinson, 696 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn and Kevin Warns. The music in this production 697 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 698 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 699 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 700 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 701 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on Instagram 702 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of 703 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number 704 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: one