1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Not a right wing grievance monger, celebrity stage mom. You 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like like ah, never any of those. Wow, 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: there are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm bridget Todd and this 5 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. Late last year, 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 1: a graduate student instructor at the University of Oklahoma gave 7 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: a student a failing grade on an assignment. We talked 8 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: about it here on the podcast. It was a routine 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: academic decision, the kind of thing that happens across college 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: campuses every single day, but this particular zero would spark 11 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: a national firestorm. The instructor was Mel Kurth, a trans 12 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: woman working as a teaching assistant while pursuing her graduate degree. 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: The student was Samantha Fulnecki, who had turned in an 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: essay for Mel's psychology class that, by multiple accounts, did 15 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: not answer the assignment's question. Instead, Boenick you wrote that 16 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: the idea of multiple genders was demonic and severely harms 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: American youth. So Mel gave the assignment a zero. Another 18 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: instructor agreed with that assessment. Case closed right, Not quite, 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: because within days Bownicky had filed a complaint of religious discrimination, 20 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: contacted Turning Points USA, the right wing organization that maintains 21 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 1: a professor watch list of LGBTQ educators and educators of color, 22 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: and begun a flashy mediator. Meanwhile, the university placed Mel 23 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: on administrative leave and eventually removed her from her teaching duties. 24 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: The grade was thrown out, and Samantha became exactly what 25 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: some believe she set out to be, a right wing 26 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: media celebrity. Now, this is a story about one teaching 27 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: assistant in Oklahoma, but it's also about something much larger, 28 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: a coordinated effort to push LGBTQ people and particularly trans 29 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: people out of academia and public life entirely. Britney Stewart 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: is Mel's attorney, and Brittany has been fighting these kinds 31 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: of battles in Oklahoma for decades. 32 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: My name is Britney Stewart. I'm a civil rights attorney 33 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: licensed in Oklahoma. I currently live in Minnesota, and I'm 34 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: also co host of a basketball podcast for my favorite team, 35 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 2: the Thunder and my podcast is called The thunder Gals. 36 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: What brought you to this work? How did you get 37 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: to be somebody in this space. 38 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 2: Well, it kind of happened upon me. I am a 39 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: woman who happens to be trans. So I wanted to 40 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: initially start my career in Oklahoma as an attorney, keeping 41 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 2: that kind of on the DL. So it was quasi 42 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: stealth right out of the gate, and I didn't want 43 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: my life to be defined by that. I just wanted 44 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,839 Speaker 2: to be a lawyer and live I like. But then 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 2: as I was practicing law, you know, some issues came 46 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: up where I was like, well, I need to be 47 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: there for trans people who are getting discriminated again, mister, 48 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: who are having trouble getting their name changed through you know, 49 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: all the various legal aspects that can impact a person's 50 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: life as they're trying to navigate something like a gender transition. 51 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 2: And so I started deciding I needed to be more 52 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: open about that. 53 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: Brittany saw that there was real value in sharing her story, 54 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: so she did an interview on the local news, knowing 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: that some of her religious clients might have concerns about 56 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: her identity. But the reaction she got was not what 57 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: she expected. 58 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: So in two thousand and nine, I started being a 59 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: little more open and I actually did an interview with 60 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: my local Fox station in Oklahoma City at the time 61 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: to kind of do a coming out party of sorts. 62 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: And the day after the first part ran I got 63 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: I had my cell phone on and I get a 64 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: call coming in from this client who I knew to 65 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: be a conservative Christian who I had met this client 66 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: at their house and like it was just all Jesus 67 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: books and videos. So I was like, oh, no, here 68 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: it comes like I'm about to lose clients over this, 69 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: and instead he was like, I saw your story on 70 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: the news. It was so inspirational. I'm so glad to 71 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: have you as my attorney. And so it really said 72 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: to me like, oh, like, I do need to be 73 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 2: out here being more of a leader because they can 74 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: bring people our way. 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: What was that moment like for you when you expected 76 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: this client to have one kind of reaction but they 77 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: had a completely different reaction. 78 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: You know, it made me feel good that that there's 79 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: definitely more good in people out there than we sometimes 80 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: give them credit for. And you know, I think a 81 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 2: lot of us make assumptions about people based on their 82 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: religious views or based on how they vote, and people 83 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: are more complicated than that, and you know, we're all 84 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: some good and some bad. None of us is perfect, 85 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: and so it really helped remind me and center me 86 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: as a person to like not jump to those conclusions 87 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 2: about people and to do my best to bring people along. 88 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's a great jumping off point to 89 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: one of the things I wanted to talk TOBO today, 90 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: which is just a situation at University of Oklahoma. I 91 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: guess I have to start by asking. 92 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: I. 93 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: Feel common. I don't think I'm telling tales out of 94 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: school to say that the moment that we're in right 95 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: now feels like a healthscape. And I think if you're 96 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: anybody of any kind of marginalized or like minoritized identity, 97 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: you definitely feel that very much, particularly transfolks, queer folks 98 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: right now. So I just want to start by asking, 99 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: how are you and how is mel You. 100 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: Know, I'm okay, I'm I also live in Minnesota these days. 101 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: Britney practices law in Oklahoma, where she lived and worked 102 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: for years. After Trump's first election, she and her husband 103 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: moved to Minnesota, seeking the safety of a state that 104 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: was the first in the nation to protect trans people. Now, 105 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: as we record this, that same state is under siege, 106 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: occupied by thousands of ice agents. So that safety that 107 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: she was seeking feels more fragile than. 108 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: Ever I am dealing with. You know, I moved to 109 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: Minnesota to be safe because it's a state that was 110 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: the very first state to have any protections for trans people, 111 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: well before anyone else did. And my husband is from Minnesota. 112 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 2: So after the first Trump election, we moved out of 113 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: Oklahoma to Minnesota to get to a state or state, 114 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,239 Speaker 2: and so I'm glad I did, but now our state 115 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: is under attack merely because we're that kind of an 116 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: accepting place, and so it's been hard. I'm luckily not 117 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: in the Twin Cities. I live way up in the 118 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: forest hours from the cities, so our neck of the 119 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: woods has been pretty quiet and there has not been 120 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: a lot of ice activity. But all of my friends 121 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: in the cities are just going through it right now, 122 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: and it's it's just traumatizing on so many levels and 123 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: requiring so much community work to get together and get 124 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: through this. And I feel like a lot of the 125 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: media even is still missing exactly how horrifying it is 126 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: for the people living in Minneapolis and Saint Paul Proper 127 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: and just what it's like to have three thousand paramilitary 128 00:07:53,880 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: thugs driving around your city. Run they're running stoplight. I've 129 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: seen friends multiple times now have reached out to me 130 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: saying I almost got hit just going to get groceries 131 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: because these guys are just run at a stop signs 132 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: and driving like we're in occupied territory. It's it's really horrifying, 133 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: just the level that it's impacting everybody's daily life there. 134 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: And even though I'm not in the part of Minnesota 135 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: dealing with that, you know, we're one Minnesota. So an 136 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: attack on Minneapolis and Saint Paul is an attack on 137 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: all of us. You know. 138 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: I live in d C. So I have the feeling 139 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: of just like what it feels like when your city 140 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: is under siege and being treated like you are, you know, 141 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: a military enemy of some kind or like an enemy 142 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: of the state. The thing that has made me as 143 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: horrifying as it is, and you just put it very well, 144 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: the one thing that has made me heartened is to 145 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: see the way exactly what you describing, how Minnesotans are 146 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: standing up and like it's I've never I wish we 147 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: had more illustration of the way community is coming together 148 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: to support community and neighbors are coming together to support neighbors, 149 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: because I've never seen anything like it, even in DC. 150 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: I think the reaction was different here that it is there, 151 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: and it's something that's been in a time of rage 152 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: and anger and disgust. People y'all take that shit very seriously, 153 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I guess, is how I'll put it. Like people people 154 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: in Minnesota really take community and community care seriously. And 155 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: I wish that was the story that was being told 156 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: because it's so true. 157 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, and it certainly helped that, you know, folks. 158 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 2: For for the last couple of years, I worked at 159 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: Gender Justice, which is a nonprofit legal entity based in St. Paul. 160 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: I worked from home, so I didn't have to be 161 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: down there all the time, But being in that field 162 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 2: and being in the nonprofit environment there in the Twin Cities, 163 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: I saw up close and personal how all of our 164 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: groups were already working together even before the November twenty 165 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: four election, with laying groundwork and plans for what happens 166 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: if this election doesn't go the way we want it 167 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: to and we end up being a place that's under 168 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: attack from this regime. And because they were already laying 169 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: that groundwork, and those organizers were already talking to each 170 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: other it made it easier to kind of get that 171 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: ball rolling when the time came, so people weren't scrambling 172 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: looking for leaders. We had people trained and ready to 173 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: start bringing people into the movement and getting them trained 174 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: up to do the roles that needed to be taken over. 175 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: Thank God for the organizers. Thank God the people who 176 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: are doing the work before it needs to be done, 177 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: building the building that infrastructure. I feel like sometimes that's 178 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: that's the stuff that can get missed because maybe it's 179 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: not super sexy. You know, let me be the person 180 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: that starts the Google doc or does the training before 181 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: the thing happens, And thank God that that person did 182 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: that work ahead of time. 183 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And what I'd say to folks and other cities 184 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 2: around the country, please really look at what Minnesota is doing. 185 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: You know, those those are lessons you can learn to 186 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: be ready for when they occupy the next city. Because 187 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: I know there's ice activity in other cities, but it's 188 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: not like it is in the cities right now. The 189 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: Twin Cities. It's three thousand plus agents just roaming the 190 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: city in the place that has a total like six 191 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: hundred police officers for that same area. So we're talking 192 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 2: a lot of manpower. It is just around the city 193 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: streets constantly. It's truly the kind of stuff that like 194 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: my grandmother would tell me about from growing up in occupy, 195 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: like Nazi occupied Holland. And so that's the level of 196 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: occupation we're seeing in the Twin Cities. 197 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: The attacks that Brittany is witnessing in Minnesota, the occupation, 198 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: the intimidation, efforts to push marginalized people out of public life, 199 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: are part of the same project playing out in Oklahoma, 200 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: where her client Mel is fighting for her right to 201 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: take up space in academia. So let's go from the 202 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: Twin Cities to Oklahoma. How is your client Mel doing 203 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: with all of this? Mel has been We did an 204 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: episode about the whole situation when it first started, but 205 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: Mel has really been in my thoughts, like as a person, 206 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: how's Mel doing? 207 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: Mel's doing good. She has a lot of really great 208 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: support fight coming from a conservative Catholic family. Her family 209 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: has been there for her through this. She was telling 210 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 2: me just yesterday about the support she's seeing around Norman, Oklahoma, 211 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: you know, just being out for brunch and you know, 212 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: people coming up to her table and thanking her for 213 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: being herself and saying let me buy let me pay 214 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: your tab for brunch today, just random strangers she's never 215 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 2: met or you know, buying her brunch, you know, making 216 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 2: sure to come say hi and give her a hug. 217 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: So she's feeling a lot of love and support from 218 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: a lot of people in Norman, and so I want 219 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 2: to make sure those folks here that like, there's a 220 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: lot of good people out there trying to support her. 221 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: And I also want to say there's a lot of 222 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: headlines that have come out that have kind of made 223 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: it seem like she's like basically been like banished from 224 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: the university or something, and that's not quite true. You know, 225 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: she was removed from her teaching assignment, but you know, 226 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: they haven't kicked her out of her program. She's still studying, 227 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: she's still her department has actually been very supportive there 228 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 2: and trying to find ways to make sure she can 229 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: still get the requirements she needs to get to to 230 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: get her post graduate degree. And so there's been a 231 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: lot of people within the university trying to look out 232 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: for her. And it's just really that, you know, in 233 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: my opinion, the university leadership itself was in a position 234 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: of do we take the side of this one teaching 235 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: assistant who you know isn't even a tenured professor, and 236 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: you know, potentially risk having the legislature make taking away 237 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: money from our university. There caused azure this session? Or 238 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: do we just throw the one ta under the bus 239 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: for this one teaching assignment so that we keep everything 240 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: calm and keep the legislature from coming after it. And 241 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: they chose the easy route because that's easier to do 242 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: that than to stand up for what's right. 243 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: Melon Brittany filed an appeal against the university's decision, and 244 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: the day before Brittany and I sat down to speak, 245 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: she got some news. 246 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: We did appeal the decision internally through the university's internal process. 247 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: They then sent that appeal to an outside law firm 248 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: to have them do so. They had like a third 249 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: party rule on the appeal to make it seem like 250 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: we're not ruling on our own stuff here. And I 251 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: can't share the actual documents. These are like private documents 252 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: that were not allowed to share out. But I can 253 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: break some news here and tell you they that they 254 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: appeal against us. And a really interesting thing of the 255 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: appeal it cites no law doesn't really it doesn't read 256 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: like what you would think of a legal opinion. And 257 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: then it's not signed by any single attorney. And in 258 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 2: my twenty years of legal practice, I have never seen 259 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: a law firm send something out that says it's just 260 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: signed by the firm. There's always like an attorney's name 261 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: on behalf of the firm, right. Instead, it just says 262 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: McAfee and taft in the signature block with no So 263 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: no attorney even wanted to put their name to this. 264 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: It was just like the firm said this. So I 265 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: don't even know what attorney reviewed this, Like what junior attorney. 266 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 2: They maybe said, Hey, write a something real quick. It's 267 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: like a four page document. It's short, it's it misses 268 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: the point of things we were trying to bring up 269 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: in the appeal. It's it's really really interesting. But you know, 270 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 2: we had to exhaust our administrative remedies internally before we 271 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: can even think about any other litigation down the line. 272 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: And so that's where we're at as of yesterday. 273 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: I'm very disappointed to hear that. What do you I mean, 274 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: I no attorney, What explains how atypical that that that 275 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: decision is? Like I've never heard of that that kind 276 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: of thing either, what do you think explains that. 277 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 2: I mean, just being somebody from Oklahoma and who's been 278 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 2: an Oklahoma licensed attorney for two decades, it really seems 279 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: just kind of like the old good old boy system 280 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: of you know, let's call up some friends at a 281 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: big firm and have them write what we need to 282 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 2: write to give us the cover to stick with this decision. 283 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: And you know, it's been not transparent at all. The 284 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: whole the whole process has just been wildly lacking in transparency. 285 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: And the old part of the reason I can even 286 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: talk about this is the degree to which Samantha the 287 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: student did such a media to her that she talked 288 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 2: about so many of the facts of the case that 289 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: she waived that you know, all of that privacy related 290 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 2: to this. So so that's why I feel comfortable now 291 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: talking a little more about what's going on in the case. 292 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at her back. By now 293 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: you've probably heard of Samantha Foalnaki. She's been on a 294 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: media blitz, tell interviews, political events, conservative podcasts. She is 295 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: working hard to turn a failing grade on what multiple 296 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: instructors agreed was subpar work into right wing celebrity status. 297 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: That is one of the things that it, I guess 298 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: infuriated me early on the way that Mel is bound 299 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: by these was bound by these confidentiality rules. Right meanwhile 300 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: the student is had media appearances lined up the next day. 301 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: How did that impact Mel's ability to defend herself publicly? 302 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: It did a lot to keep her from being able 303 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 2: to talk. I will give you know, university officials credit. 304 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 2: You know, one of the things they did really early on, 305 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: as soon as Mel's name even got out, is you know, 306 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: officials did help her lock down her social media and 307 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: lock down her private email and do things to get 308 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: some of the some of that info off of the 309 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: internet so that she would not get a much direct harassment. 310 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: So I do want to give folks credit for trying 311 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 2: to help her in that way. But it was really 312 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: troubling to her that you know, until she got me 313 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 2: as an attorney, she couldn't even say anything, and so 314 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: you know, she didn't know how to say anything or 315 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: what she could say. And so finally she hired me 316 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: and we were able to start putting out at least 317 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: a couple of public statements so that people knew, like, yeah, 318 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 2: she's getting railroaded here. You know, we gotta at least 319 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: say something. 320 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm happy that you mentioned at the university was 321 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: helpful in helping her lockdown her digital footprint. That's something 322 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: that we talk about a lot on the show, when 323 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: someone particularly somewhat of a marginalized or like my dormanized 324 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: identity becomes the tart a national target in this way. 325 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: Oftentimes institutions are just like, good luck, hope you can 326 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: handle a million death threats from stray like thoughts and prayers, 327 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: but the very least they can do is offer su like, 328 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: especially if you are representing an institution, the very least 329 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: they can do is offer some support in terms of 330 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: digital security and best practices, so that it's not just 331 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: letting this person absorb all, like, all of this hate 332 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: and just hoping that they're able to shoulder that, because 333 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: oftentimes they're not. 334 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely so, I guess I do appreciate that and want 335 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: to give credit where it's due on that. 336 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: I'm also glad that you mentioned the fact that mel 337 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: doesn't have tenure. I got my start in education. I 338 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: adjuncted a half a dozen places across the district of Columbia. 339 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: I was a PhD school dropout. So I was a 340 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: a ta astruct graduate instructor and all of that. And 341 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: I say that to say that when you're a grad student, 342 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: you just don't have a lot of support all the time. 343 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: And when I was a grad student, I would make 344 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: like twelve hundred dollars a year or something. I didn't 345 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: have a ton of money. I was really at capacity 346 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: with like clauses and teaching. It just is a lot, 347 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: And it's a lot to expect one person to shoulder 348 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: when you have strangers, you know, weighing in on whether 349 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: or not you should keep your job, whether or not. 350 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: But like you've been good, like and Mela someone it 351 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: makes me said that, like Mel as someone who I 352 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: know is an award winning student right like has won 353 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: awards for her ability to teach students. And so this 354 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: idea that you have a million strangers weighing in when 355 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: you're in a dynamic where you're just a grad student, 356 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: you don't have tenure, you don't have the protections that 357 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: some other people might have. It just is a very 358 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: unfair situation, I guess, is what I'm saying. It is. 359 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,239 Speaker 2: Although I will say mel did kind of watch the 360 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: social media firestorm you know, she couldn't help herself to 361 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 2: go see what people were saying, and it did hearten 362 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: her and like fill her with pride that so many 363 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 2: people saw through the story and were like, this is ridiculous. 364 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: I read that paper. It's terrible. It deserves the zero. 365 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: And she's like she did feel vindicated that so many 366 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: people were posting about it and could see it for 367 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: what it was. 368 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: The fact that Samantha's team released the paper. I've in 369 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: my opinion, they released it to be like a gotcha 370 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: like see judge for yourself, and I don't think that 371 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: they realized that the almost the entire Internet was going 372 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: to be like, wow, what a bad paper? 373 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: You know well, and then she goes on to give 374 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 2: an interview where she admits, like, oh, I forgot I 375 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 2: even had this assignment, dude, despite the fact it had 376 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: been on the syllabus for months. Bir that was clear. 377 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: I'm on my way out to go see a play 378 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: with my friend, and so I just like, I'm just 379 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: gonna hop on and throw this together. Like the paper 380 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: she's supposed to be responding to that that article was 381 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: supposed to that she was supposed to have read, would 382 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 2: take thirty minutes to just read, not even to respond to. 383 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: And so part of the thing we brought up in 384 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 2: the appeal was facts that were not brought up you 385 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 2: know below, and the facts I brought upse I was 386 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: able to review the file, it was like nobody's even 387 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: bringing up this interview that she gave after she filed 388 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: this complaint. This is new evidence that cuts against her 389 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: story that this was some really well thought out opinion piece, 390 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 2: and that in fact, you know, it seems that she's 391 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: just complaining that she got a bad grade on something 392 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: she didn't take the time to do right, and they 393 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: tried to turn that into appeal as to we're trying 394 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: to say that, you know, she she just didn't do 395 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: enough time, but it was still her opinion, and it 396 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: was just its circular logic in the appealed decision that 397 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: didn't didn't really take what we were saying at face 398 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: value and tried to twist it into something else. I'm saying, No, 399 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: she admitted she did not do the assignment. There's just 400 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: no way you could have in that short of a 401 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 2: time frame. 402 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: When mel gave Samantha that failing grade, she hasked for 403 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: a second opinion from the other graduate student instructor in 404 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: the course. That instructor, a cisgender white woman, also reviewed 405 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: Samantha's assignment and agreed that it deserved a zero for 406 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: all the same reasons that Mel sided, but that instructor 407 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: faced no complaints, no immediate firestorm, no removal from teaching. 408 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: The only difference, well, she's not trends. You have a 409 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: very specific piece of evidence that interview that she gave that, 410 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: I mean, in my opinion, pretty much gives the whole 411 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: game away. Is there is there any additional stuff like 412 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: that that you think investigators should have considered or should 413 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: have used to make their decision but didn't. 414 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was also evidence that after Mel gave her 415 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: the zero, Mel actually went to another TA who was 416 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: there was two tas for the class, and they had 417 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: split the class up like A through H or whatever, 418 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 2: and you know, you know, I through Z and whatever 419 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: work to give them equal students. And so Mel went 420 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: to the other TA who at the other half of 421 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: the class and said, hey, I've given this a zero. 422 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 2: Can you give it a look too, and tell me 423 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: whether you agree or not. That TA is a CIS 424 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: white female, said I agree with your assessment like that 425 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: looks like a zero to me as well. But she 426 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: was not brought up into any in this, and you 427 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: know she's not being puned, and you know she wasn't 428 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 2: complained about. So it seems that this really is all 429 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: about focusing on the trans person in the scenario and 430 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,479 Speaker 2: punishing them for giving the same grade that this white 431 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: person was gonna give as well. 432 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you made that point. I don't 433 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: know if you can speak to this or not, but 434 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: to me, just as somebody who's been in the classroom 435 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: for many years, that's exactly that's just exactly what's going on. 436 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: In my opinion, I think that this is so clearly 437 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: not about this one grade. I think it is so 438 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: clearly about an attack on a trans person in academia, 439 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: but also a political moment that's attempting to pushed queer 440 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: voices and trans voices and those identities out of academia 441 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: and out of institutional spaces. That is how I see it. 442 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: That's my opinion is based on what you just said. 443 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to see this as anything else. 444 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of just a fact because the 445 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: fact that she even brought turning point USA into this 446 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: and connected them in when she emailed her complaint over 447 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 2: is telling because Turning Point USA literally has an entire 448 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 2: website dedicated to outing queer people in academia and attacking them. 449 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: It's called the Professor watch List, and they have literally 450 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 2: everyone on there is basically either queer or a person 451 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: of color that teaches things from a perspective that they 452 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 2: don't believe we should be allowed to hear. It's all 453 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: about control. It's about kicking out anyone who's not a 454 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: white Christian nationalist and shoving them out of academia. And 455 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: it's all part of this broader ethnic cleansing project of 456 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: the far right that's being currently headed up by President 457 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 2: Stephen Miller. And you know the rest of this regime 458 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: and Turning Point USA is their private like nonprofit out 459 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: there doing the boots on the ground work that government 460 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 2: can't do for them. 461 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: Also, we talked about this after Charlie Kirk's death, Turning 462 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: Points usas Professor watch List brought to you by Charlie Kirk. 463 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: And it's so funny to me that people are like, oh, 464 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: really love free speech, girware, you know, like, oh, not 465 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: the free speech of the professors that are on this 466 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: watch list that are being threatened and silenced for what 467 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: they have to say. Certainly not their free speech, No. 468 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 2: Not at all. It's the free speech to them means 469 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: I'm allowed to say hate speech and anybody who criticizes 470 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: me needs to be silenced. 471 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: The people championing Samantha's cause and attacking mel Well, most 472 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: of them have no official or formal connection to the 473 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: University of Oklahoma. There's folks like Ryan Walters, the former 474 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: Oklahoma state superintendent currently under an ethics investigation for alleged 475 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: conflicts of interest. And then there's Samantha's mother, an attorney 476 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: whose client list includes January sixth rioters. These are the 477 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: voices claiming to defend academic freedom. So I'm curious, and 478 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: this might be an Oklahoma thing you talked about how 479 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: ful Nikki immediately was ccing turning points USA. I find 480 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: that so weird and in revealing, as you said. But 481 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: then you have these people who, as far as they 482 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: can tell, have no real current connection to education in Oklahoma. 483 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: Like they're not elected officials like Ryan Walters. What does 484 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: it mean when someone loops in all of these people 485 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,479 Speaker 1: who have they're not elected officials, They have no real 486 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: business way on what's happening at this university. 487 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: I mean, to me, it was it gave away the game. 488 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: It said I I'm not just doing this because you know, 489 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: I want to see justice done in my case, it's 490 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: I want to bring attention to this because I want 491 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: to become the next Riley Games right wing star and 492 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: do the media tour. If you go to Samantha's Instagram, 493 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: it is just covered in pictures of all her various 494 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: media appearances. And you know, I don't think she has 495 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: quite even the charisma of Riley, so I don't know 496 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: that she's you know, going to actually make it, but 497 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: it dirt definitely seems to me that that was part 498 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: of the play here, like I can step on this 499 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: transta to get my face out there and start trying 500 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: to do the right wing media grip. I don't know 501 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: how much of that's, you know, the student herself, or 502 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 2: how much of it's her january defending mom. You know, 503 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: I don't know who's behind it, but I can tell 504 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: you that in some of the raw footage of the 505 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: interviews that she gave at least with local stations in Oklahoma, 506 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: News nine posted the whole like thirty minute long interview 507 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: that they ended up only taking clips of for their 508 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 2: news program onto their YouTube channel. And it's clear to 509 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: me from watching the entire interview that her mom is 510 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: sitting there next to her, because the interviewer occasionally looks 511 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: to the person next to her to ask like, well, 512 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: can I talk to her about this or that? And 513 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 2: it's pretty clearly her mom sitting there. I to the 514 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: degree I do kind of wonder is mom leading this 515 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: and pushing her to it? Is this her own thing? 516 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: It's really hard to tell. 517 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: Not a right wing grievance monger, celebrity stage mom, you 518 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Enough never any of those. Wow 519 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:21,479 Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. 520 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: I believe that Samantha wrote this paper on purpose, with 521 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: the intention of trying to use Mel to become this, 522 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: this right wing celebrity type. Is do you what do 523 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: you think about that? That's my take. I don't know 524 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: if that's something you can weigh in on. I think 525 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: this was done intentionally to like bait Mel into adding 526 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: a specific reaction so that Samantha could become this celebrity. 527 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: That's one hypothesis. I am not deep enough into my 528 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: investigation at this time to you know, be able to 529 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: say with certainty that I'm one hundred percent believe it 530 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 2: went this way or that way. There's a lot that 531 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 2: still needs to be looked into. That certainly seems a possibility. 532 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: It also seems a possibility that she got a zero 533 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: for doing a crappy job and then realized, wait, isn't 534 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 2: that professor a trans person? And is there a way 535 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 2: I can flip this and turn this into something It's 536 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: I'm still trying to figure out when the plan got 537 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 2: cooked up. Was it before the zero or after the zero. 538 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: It was absolutely true that she wanted to use assignments 539 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 2: in that class to push her viewpoint, because that was 540 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: not the only time, you know, she had leaned on 541 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 2: religion for some things she was trying to say in 542 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: that class. It was just the first time she got 543 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 2: a zero because her work was so poor. She actually 544 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: had like a ninety something percent average in the class 545 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 2: even after a zero. So she was basically mad about 546 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: an assignment that took her grade down a few points 547 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: from an A to an A. 548 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: If you had told me when I was in college 549 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: that I could blow off an assignment get a zero, 550 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: for it, but then have that grade thrown out, not 551 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: weighed against me, and then also become a celebrity in 552 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: the process. I mean, I wasn't like a massive transfer, 553 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: because I probably wouldn't have done what Samantha did. But 554 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is, doesn't this set a 555 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: precedent that perhaps we do not want on college campuses 556 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: that anytime there is a grade complaint, you can just say, well, 557 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: the professor who gave it to me, guess what she's 558 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: trans And all of a sudden, everybody, national media figures 559 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: are coming in to take your side. 560 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And that's why I took this case, is because 561 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 2: I think it's important that we start pushing back in 562 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: every legal way that we can. I have my own 563 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: problems with where our current legal and judicial situation, but 564 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 2: it still exists for now. And you know, even in 565 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: Ruby Red, Oklahoma, I won a one point something million 566 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: dollar verdict for a trans professor at Southeastern in twenty seventeen. 567 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 2: And let me tell you that jury we had. It's 568 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 2: for the Western District of Oklahoma Federal Court. So this 569 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 2: is the District of Oklahoma covers like everything from Oklahoma 570 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: City and west, like the entire western half of the 571 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: state basically, and so that meant our jurors were not 572 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: just from the city. We had jurors who were coming 573 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 2: in over an hour drive each way from rural towns 574 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 2: outside of Oklahoma City. And of course I researched all 575 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 2: of our jurors as soon as we had our jury selected, 576 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: and I you know, one of them was a pastor himself, 577 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 2: and another one was the wife of a pastor, and 578 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 2: we got a unanimous jury verdict on behalf of our friends. Professor. 579 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: So I know that when people actually get the facts 580 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: in a court, roop them setting and can actually divorce 581 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 2: it from everything that's going on politically. Olaholmans fundamentally believe 582 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 2: in people being treated fairly regardless of who they are, 583 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 2: and do not abide somebody being treated unfairly nearly because 584 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: of who they are. 585 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: Wow, that takes me back to what we open this 586 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: conversation with, of I this is at my own biases. 587 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: I would not have thought that folks coming in from 588 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: rural Oklahoma to said on this jury would have gone 589 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: that way. But it makes me happy to hear that 590 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: even in places like Ruby Read, Oklahoma, folks still believe 591 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: that like, people deserve justice, people deserve you know, people 592 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: have civil rights. Like that's the whole point of our country, 593 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: or ostensibly should be. That makes me feel good that 594 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: that's that you're that you're pushing forward cases that demonstrate that. 595 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. And it was fun too because being the local 596 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 2: council on it. Our trial team consisted of a trans 597 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: man attorney, Ezra Young, who came in from New York, 598 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: who was lead council. I was the Oklahoma on the 599 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 2: ground local council. And then we brought in a third 600 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 2: attorney who was a Latina lesbian woman from Texas. And 601 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 2: our team came together and we were like, we have 602 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 2: to talk to this jury in a way that we 603 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: just meet them where they are. And I we were, 604 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: and you know, the national lords were telling us, Oh, 605 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: you're going to have to, you know, teach all these 606 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: people about trans and this and that, and I was like, no, 607 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 2: we don't. I was like, the last thing we want 608 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 2: to do is spend hours of testimony on defining transgender. 609 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what they think that means. All they 610 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 2: need to know is that this woman who happens to 611 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 2: be trans was treated differently because of it. And so 612 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 2: my co counsel from Texas. She did our voi deer, 613 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 2: which is the jury selection process, and instead of using 614 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 2: jury selection as you know, trying to pick just the 615 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 2: perfect jurors, we kind of used it as a way 616 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 2: to start already framing the case. And she did this 617 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: really brilliantly, and we had the jurors in there and 618 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 2: she said, how many of you all were in like 619 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 2: cub Scouts, girl scouts, boy scouts. Just hands are going up. 620 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 2: Almost the entire jury raises their hand and she said, 621 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 2: now you know when you had to get a merit badge, 622 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: you know, said you had to do a B and 623 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 2: C and once you complete AB and C you get 624 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 2: the badge for doing what you needed to do to 625 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 2: earn that merit badge. Right, well, yeah, of course. Don't 626 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: you think it would be unfair After you did a 627 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 2: B and C and you got that merit badge, somebody 628 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 2: said to you, well you can't have it because of 629 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 2: who you are. They were all like, well that's horrible. Yeah, 630 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 2: And so just we didn't need to know everybody was 631 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 2: perfectly right on any perfect issue was getting it into 632 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 2: their heads. The framing of like you don't want to 633 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 2: be treated unfairly and you don't want others to be 634 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 2: treated unfairly. 635 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: That is so brilliant, What a brilliant strategy. I do 636 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: wonder I don't even really know how to ask this. 637 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: Does it ever feel like you have to walk this 638 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: delicate walk of you know, I agree, like meeting people 639 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: where they're at, speaking to them and in their own 640 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,479 Speaker 1: language is very important and very persuasive. Does it ever 641 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: feel burdensome that you that that's something that you even 642 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: need to be working out? Like, like, how how am 643 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: I gonna get in front of a jury and had 644 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: this conversation in a way that's not going to automatically 645 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: have them be like thinking X y Z about me 646 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,320 Speaker 1: being being very mindful of how you present both yourself 647 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: and these issues and your clients. Does that make sense? 648 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean it's it can be a little bit tiresome, 649 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 2: but it's you know, it's unfortunately it's the work, and 650 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 2: you know, my job is ultimately harm reduction and doing 651 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: the best I can to put my clients back into 652 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 2: a situation that's, you know, somewhat equivalent to where they 653 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 2: were before the bad thing happened to them. And you know, 654 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 2: you can't always do that, but we try, and you know, 655 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 2: we have to make the arguments we have to make 656 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 2: to try to bring people along, and you know, if 657 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 2: that means connecting with them on that, then that's what 658 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 2: we do. And you know it's actually I was. I 659 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 2: read Stevens Keeps book about Abraham Lincoln a couple of 660 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 2: years back, and you know, a big theme of that 661 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 2: book was how, yeah, Lincoln himself wanted to abolish slavery, 662 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 2: but he also knew, like, I'm not going to bring 663 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 2: people along just by telling them slaveries immoral, So he 664 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 2: had to find arguments of meeting people where they were 665 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 2: of like, oh well, as long as their slavery in 666 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 2: the South, you know, they can keep getting away with 667 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 2: not paying people good wages and that's driving your wages down. 668 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 2: And like, it sucks that you have to meet people 669 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 2: like that sometimes, but that's just historically where the work 670 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 2: gets done and how we move things forward. 671 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: Given your work, I'm given where we are in this 672 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: moment in our country. Are you hopeful? Are you do 673 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: you have optimism or hope for where we're headed and 674 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: what's next? 675 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 2: I do, in spite of everything, I am becoming more 676 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 2: optimistic that we can get through this. That said, I 677 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 2: do think it will get a lot worse before it 678 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 2: gets better. But what we know of authoritarian regimes is 679 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 2: that you know, when they're lashing out in this kind 680 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 2: of violence, it's because they know they're losing public popular opinion, 681 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 2: and they're trying to stifle dissent and get us to think, oh, well, 682 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 2: they're going to shoot me, I better stay inside. And 683 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 2: what I love about Minnesotan's is you know, they see 684 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 2: two of their neighbors get shot and killed, and instead 685 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 2: of saying, well, that means I need to stay in, 686 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 2: it meant thirty thousand more people signed up to become observers. Right, 687 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:50,399 Speaker 2: So these folks here in this state believe in our 688 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 2: democratic system. And it's not really a coincidence that this 689 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 2: is also the state that typically has the highest voter 690 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,919 Speaker 2: turnout every I in the small town where I live, 691 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 2: the November twenty twenty four turnout for this town of 692 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 2: two thousand people that I live in was ninety seven 693 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,800 Speaker 2: percent turnout. And so these are people who believe in participating, 694 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 2: who believe we had to have a voice, and so 695 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 2: when some outside force comes in and tells them you 696 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 2: don't get to have a voice that only makes them 697 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 2: buck up harder and say oh yeah, oh. 698 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Minnesotas are outside and they're outside in like negative, 699 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:36,760 Speaker 1: tenderly weather. 700 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 2: Yeah we're hardy folks. It doesn't matter. We got the 701 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 2: right gear to wear. We know how to stay warm. 702 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 2: I bet those those southern boys and I just don't 703 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 2: know how to stay warm in it. 704 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. Is there anything that 705 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: folks listing can do to support your work or support 706 00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: Mel in this moment? 707 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 2: You know, I think, just right now, just keep an 708 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 2: eye on the story. You know, there were there was 709 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,399 Speaker 2: a moment. I'm glad we brought this up. There were 710 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 2: some people who I think some might have been well meaning, 711 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 2: some might have been scammers. But in the initial days 712 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 2: after this story was getting national attention, there were like 713 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,879 Speaker 2: four or five different go fumes that popped up. None 714 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,879 Speaker 2: of them were associated with either me or with Mel. 715 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 2: So these were people who hadn't reached out to Mel, 716 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 2: hadn't talked to any of us, and we're saying they 717 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 2: were raising money for her, So be be on the lookout. 718 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 2: We are not trying to raise money. Mel's not trying 719 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 2: to get a hand out. I am working on a 720 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 2: contingent fee basis, so she's not you know, going in 721 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 2: debt on attorney thieves here, So we're okay. What Mel 722 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 2: would like people to do who want to help is 723 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 2: help in your local area. So whoever your local LGBT 724 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 2: organizations are, or you know, whoever around your community is 725 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 2: helping people like Mel, donate to those folks because we're 726 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 2: all going to have to take care of our own 727 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,280 Speaker 2: backyards in this moment, and you know, Mel just wants 728 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 2: people to support their communities where they're at so that 729 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 2: we can all have each other's back. 730 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech? I 731 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: just want to say Hi. You can reach us at 732 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: Hello at tengody dot com. You can also find transcripts 733 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: for today's episode at teng Goody dot com. There Are 734 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Toad. 735 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland 736 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and 737 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amata is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 738 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, rate 739 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: and review us on Apple podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 740 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 741 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.