Speaker 1: Welcomed. It happens sometimes the podcast where it's happened. Shit, Um, Garrison, Chris, somebody, somebody,
Speaker 1: somebody picked this up. This is on you. Anybody anybody
Speaker 1: got help paying you out of this one? Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: you know what podcasts this is. You've been listening, presumably
Speaker 1: for months, or this is your first time listening. If so,
Speaker 1: I've probably lost you already with that Bush League introduction.
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. Um, I'm Robert Evans. This is a show
Speaker 1: about how things fall apart and how to maybe stop
Speaker 1: them from falling apart as much. And today we're talking
Speaker 1: to some people who were in kind of the best
Speaker 1: case scenario situation for having a bunch of authoritarians try
Speaker 1: to uh dominate your country, by which I mean we're
Speaker 1: talking to some Chilean activists who who who won um,
Speaker 1: And as much as it's it's possible to win in
Speaker 1: the world, UM, it's a pretty exciting situation. UM, happening there.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to introduce people to like what's been going on.
Speaker 1: But first I want to introduce our guests for today. UM,
Speaker 1: y'all wanna you'll wanna say hello hello. My name is
Speaker 1: Jeremiah I'm from the United States. I've lived in Chile
Speaker 1: for the last ten years, and I'm Stephanie Ahead. I'm
Speaker 1: a Chillian and I'm leaving here with with my my husband. Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Nicholas. I'm too and I have been living here
Speaker 1: for my whole life. Yeah. So we started a small
Speaker 1: group called Nitos to do some activism to try to
Speaker 1: get out to vote for the Pleglcito, to try to
Speaker 1: UH last year to get the constitution approved to be
Speaker 1: voted on, and and it successful. So we are proud
Speaker 1: of the small bit of work that we did to
Speaker 1: help that happen. And so today the constitution is being
Speaker 1: written and it's a very exciting time. Yeah. And I
Speaker 1: want to let's pull back a little bit because the
Speaker 1: last time we we talked about UM Chile on behind
Speaker 1: the Bastards in two thousand nineteen, when UM a protest
Speaker 1: that started as some i think it's fair to say
Speaker 1: zoomers protesting a fair increase by like jumping fares at
Speaker 1: the at the underground the subway. UM was met with
Speaker 1: police doing police stuff, which was met with people taking
Speaker 1: to the streets and very significant numbers, which is the
Speaker 1: thing that by now a lot more people are experienced with.
Speaker 1: But unlike kind of what happened in my country, you
Speaker 1: did it. You made him blink, and and that's what
Speaker 1: the plebiscite is, right, like the there was an agreement
Speaker 1: made to give because Chile was still, if I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 1: governed under the same constitution that that Pinochet had had, right. Um,
Speaker 1: and Pinochet famously not a great guy. UM, So I
Speaker 1: wonder if you might give us kind of an overview
Speaker 1: of y'all's experience during that time, from like the start
Speaker 1: of the protests to oh ship we might actually get
Speaker 1: to change things at a pretty fundamental level in our country. UM. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was incredible time, about exactly two years ago.
Speaker 1: So just the of October was just a two year anniversary.
Speaker 1: And um, as you said, it all started with um
Speaker 1: literal high schoolers, sixteen year olds who are protesting a
Speaker 1: thirty paso increase, which is, you know, like increase in
Speaker 1: the metro. But we of course have one of the
Speaker 1: most expensive metros in the world and a very low,
Speaker 1: um uh minimum wage here. And so as you said,
Speaker 1: they went out there and started to jump the turnstiles,
Speaker 1: but in massive groups, hundreds of them going to the
Speaker 1: metro together and all jumping together, and in response, the
Speaker 1: government ended up closing the metros. And so it was
Speaker 1: this Friday night, UM, and we were having dinner and
Speaker 1: UH suddenly the metros were all closed and everyone had
Speaker 1: to just walk home from work or dinner or where
Speaker 1: they were. And that was kind of the beginning of everything.
Speaker 1: And it was almost like the government brought it on themselves,
Speaker 1: because suddenly there were thousands of people in the streets
Speaker 1: just because they had no other way to get home.
Speaker 1: And from there, UH, they there were protests, and the
Speaker 1: protests were met with extreme police oppression and water cannons
Speaker 1: and tear gas and all of that, and UM. Eventually
Speaker 1: it led to one March, which had over a million
Speaker 1: people throughout Chile marching, and UM a series of marches
Speaker 1: and protests basically every week for months. UM and finally
Speaker 1: UH it came down to UH. They announced that there
Speaker 1: would be this Plebilist site and it was a vote
Speaker 1: yes or no to create a new constitution, because yes,
Speaker 1: Chile is still There were some reforms in the early
Speaker 1: two thousands to the constitution, but UM still we live
Speaker 1: under the constitution written by Jaime Gustman UM kind of
Speaker 1: you know, CH's right hand man, and we happen to live.
Speaker 1: Nico is our good friend and also our next door neighbor,
Speaker 1: and we live about four blocks from the Plaza Um
Speaker 1: formerly Plaza Italia. Now the protesters have deemed it Plaza Dignidad,
Speaker 1: and so we've been just in the middle of it
Speaker 1: and for or for a couple of months are our
Speaker 1: whole neighborhood was like a war zone and uh, just
Speaker 1: really crazy protests every single day and and tear gas
Speaker 1: and all of that, and it was it was really
Speaker 1: intense for a while, and uh it still is. You know.
Speaker 1: Um last Friday, uh we you know, were met with
Speaker 1: tear gas and water cannons again. So it's it's it's
Speaker 1: even though the kind the constitution is being written again
Speaker 1: and the pledgliscite was a year ago, but the police
Speaker 1: are still out there being bastards. Yeah, I'm curious what
Speaker 1: each of you kind of sees as the moment when
Speaker 1: or if you because maybe I was going too optimistic,
Speaker 1: right like I guess I'm wondering, do you think that
Speaker 1: a corner has been turned and and if so, what
Speaker 1: was kind of the moment each of you felt like,
Speaker 1: oh my God, we might Actually, this isn't just gonna
Speaker 1: be like showing up to get the ship kicked out
Speaker 1: of us. We're going to get somewhat least of what
Speaker 1: we're fighting for. Wait technically, yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 1: that like that particular moment was when we finally went
Speaker 1: to the elections to who you call the referendum for
Speaker 1: the for this new constitution, and we were kind of
Speaker 1: skeptic about the the percentage of people who approved this
Speaker 1: new constitution because a few months ago or a few
Speaker 1: weeks before this referendum, we have like continuing quests polls.
Speaker 1: We had the polls and they were kind of fifty.
Speaker 1: So we're kind of skeptic about are we gonna have
Speaker 1: a new constitution or not. And that the same night,
Speaker 1: I mean, the process very quick, so after I know,
Speaker 1: the this thing close at six pm and then you
Speaker 1: have the results like three hours later. So on the
Speaker 1: same day we're having the the results on it was
Speaker 1: like eighty I guess twenty, So it was like kind
Speaker 1: of shocking. I mean, we I think that nobody was
Speaker 1: expecting to have this kind of percent of the people
Speaker 1: until they were I went to throw to the being
Speaker 1: the you know, tech Constitution, So it was kind of like,
Speaker 1: I don't know out say that the best moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's this. There's an American, a deceased American UM sociologist
Speaker 1: who who wrote an essay that I find quite influential
Speaker 1: called The Shock of Victory, and it's about how activists
Speaker 1: often failed to take advantage of of their momentum, like
Speaker 1: because they're kind of surprised at the success early on,
Speaker 1: and then they don't properly take advantage of what they
Speaker 1: have when they have it, and and you know, progress
Speaker 1: gets turned back, which I think we've seen happen in
Speaker 1: the United States in the wake of of what happened
Speaker 1: here last summer. Why do you think that that hasn't
Speaker 1: happened in Chile? What do think it is that that
Speaker 1: that enabled um, you you all to actually keep the
Speaker 1: pressure on and and take advantage of that that moment
Speaker 1: in time, which which never I guess that's what I'm
Speaker 1: impressed with the most, is that you you' all did
Speaker 1: manage to to make that momentum work for you rather
Speaker 1: than kind of letting it pull you off balance. And
Speaker 1: I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on
Speaker 1: on how UM I guess for me, what I think
Speaker 1: it's lost a lot in the conversation is UM the
Speaker 1: premier linear, so the first line of defense. And so
Speaker 1: you have UM a bunch of young people, anarchists, you know,
Speaker 1: just crazy young people who went out there to fight
Speaker 1: with the cops every single day, and it was really
Speaker 1: impressive and a lot of times we uh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I feel like they don't get the credit they deserve
Speaker 1: because you know, they're the delnents and that you know,
Speaker 1: we talk a lot about the big march is when
Speaker 1: there was a million people in the street and and obviously,
Speaker 1: like Nico said, winning the vote by scent showed that
Speaker 1: it was something that everyone in Chile wanted. But it
Speaker 1: never would have happened if it weren't for the this
Speaker 1: small group of of fighters who were there every single day,
Speaker 1: facing tear gas and water cannons and police beating them
Speaker 1: up with you know, throwing rocks and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So I think that's the main thing. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: once a month or even once a week, it was
Speaker 1: every single day and they were there on the front line,
Speaker 1: and it none of this would be possible without them.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating to me because obviously things like that, groups
Speaker 1: like that existed here, like in Portland's Win every night
Speaker 1: for not as long, but for not an insignificant amount
Speaker 1: of time, and it was those same It was a
Speaker 1: lot of these kind of young anarchists front liners who
Speaker 1: were willing to go toe to the toe with the
Speaker 1: cops every night. But you didn't have you didn't have
Speaker 1: that kind of larger, more moderate populace backing them up.
Speaker 1: And I guess one of the things I'm curious about
Speaker 1: is what was kind of the you mentioned you don't
Speaker 1: think they get the credit they deserve. Was there a
Speaker 1: broad attitude that, like, these people are the ones going
Speaker 1: face to face with the cops, so that those of us,
Speaker 1: you know, people who are older, people who aren't and
Speaker 1: it is going to ship people who can't physically take
Speaker 1: as much abuse can still show up or was it?
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious how how those people represented what
Speaker 1: they were doing and how it how it was seen
Speaker 1: by most of kind of the more moderate people who
Speaker 1: still supported change around you, because that that dynamic exists
Speaker 1: in any mass protest movement, and I'm it worked where
Speaker 1: you are, and I'm trying to get a handle on
Speaker 1: maybe how it was different than what I saw in Portland.
Speaker 1: Uh so now a lot of them are in yo
Speaker 1: and um or without one eye, so is uh it's
Speaker 1: really terrible because else we have all these new beautiful
Speaker 1: process but we are without really completely democracy with liberty
Speaker 1: with the for this guy or or democracy for all
Speaker 1: this um person that loose eyes or uh yeah and
Speaker 1: everyone that was injured. Um So, yeah, a lot of
Speaker 1: protests nowadays. Actually I think today right now there's a
Speaker 1: protest going on to free the political prisoners um and uh.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I think they're even among you know,
Speaker 1: obviously of the country voted for the new constitution, so
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different points of view there. But
Speaker 1: but yeah, there was division even among the left. A
Speaker 1: lot of people said, you know, this is not the
Speaker 1: form of this is not the way to protest, and
Speaker 1: we should not be violent and you know, burning things
Speaker 1: and um. But but there was a lot, I mean,
Speaker 1: you saw a lot of the opposite where people were saying,
Speaker 1: just as you said, like those out there on the
Speaker 1: front line are the reason that the older people and
Speaker 1: others can come out and feel safer to protest because
Speaker 1: the primary linea is kind of taking the brunt of
Speaker 1: the violence from the police, and that allows the older
Speaker 1: people and those who are are less confrontational to be
Speaker 1: out there in protests. So for me, some of some
Speaker 1: of the most inspiring signs I remember seeing are like
Speaker 1: folks that are eighty years old and they have signs
Speaker 1: that say, you know, Gracia sala primary LINEA. You know,
Speaker 1: like thank you to the front liners who who are
Speaker 1: taking that violence so that they are ball the others
Speaker 1: to to protest in a more peaceful way. That's such
Speaker 1: a fascinating situation to me that you've got You've got
Speaker 1: these these more radical frontliners who were, as you say,
Speaker 1: critical in allowing this, this really groundbreaking change to occur
Speaker 1: in your society. But at the same time, things haven't
Speaker 1: changed enough that number one, the cops will beat the
Speaker 1: ship out of them, I'm guessing are still largely employed,
Speaker 1: um and and a bunch of them are in jail.
Speaker 1: I'm do you have much hope that at the very
Speaker 1: least there will be something to like get these people
Speaker 1: out or is it is that maybe a bridge. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know your country obviously, Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm curious, like, do you feel like there's much hope
Speaker 1: in pushing for that because it seems like, you know,
Speaker 1: those people need to be free. Yeah. I mean most
Speaker 1: of these guys who are in prison and they have
Speaker 1: spent like, oh no, like twelve months in prison without
Speaker 1: any evidence, so yeah, all the world of the cops,
Speaker 1: I guess them. So after I know, like thirteen months
Speaker 1: for ten months, they will finally get released because they
Speaker 1: have they have no evidence, or they could they may
Speaker 1: find that the police they made up all the evidence,
Speaker 1: so they they finally go out. But I mean, you
Speaker 1: spend like almost a year in prison, that's me. It's
Speaker 1: clearly like political. I mean you're a political prisoner, like
Speaker 1: they got They got you in prison with no evidence,
Speaker 1: without any profit process. They keep you in prison for
Speaker 1: a year, and who's gonna pay for that? I mean
Speaker 1: you lost a year. Yeah, we're talking so far about
Speaker 1: the sacrifices made here. What do you think with this
Speaker 1: new constitution, you and your your your fellow Chileans, what
Speaker 1: are you gonna get? Like? How what are the changes
Speaker 1: that are seemed to be most concrete and the ones
Speaker 1: that you think are most important? Um? I think already
Speaker 1: it's been groundbreaking. I believe it's the only constitution ever
Speaker 1: to be written by a plurality of women and and
Speaker 1: also to have a representation from the indigenous peoples. And
Speaker 1: uh so it's already been very um inspiring and groundbreaking. Um.
Speaker 1: The President of the Constitutional Convention is a very inspiring
Speaker 1: um Mapuche leader woman UM. And the good thing is
Speaker 1: that the right um it represents less than one third
Speaker 1: of the Constitutional Convention, so they don't have the power
Speaker 1: to block um anything uh as far as only by
Speaker 1: the right, so we will see. But they literally just
Speaker 1: started writing the constitution last week. So yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: still but that's I mean, that's that's a significant Is
Speaker 1: there a kind of a broad agreement that one of
Speaker 1: the things that needed to happen here was a redress
Speaker 1: of grievances between the indigenous people um and the and
Speaker 1: the state, Because it sounds like that's a significant chunk
Speaker 1: of what's what's been already agreed upon. Just but like
Speaker 1: how this is coming together? Yeah, so uh well, Nicok
Speaker 1: probably tell a lot more about this than I could.
Speaker 1: But um, there's a big deal with the Uniteds with
Speaker 1: the indigenous people in the South and the government um
Speaker 1: basically waging war against the indigenous people. Actually, uh, two
Speaker 1: weeks ago Niera, the current right wing president um declared
Speaker 1: a state of emergency in the south and he just
Speaker 1: extended it for fifteen more days. So we have the
Speaker 1: military and the out um and they are you know,
Speaker 1: with the tanks and attaching attacking the the Mapuche and
Speaker 1: other indigenous people there. And uh so yeah, a big
Speaker 1: aspect of Chile right now is the the the fight
Speaker 1: between and and the oppression of the government against the
Speaker 1: native people. And and it's a cultural thing too. I
Speaker 1: mean it's it's really heavy everyone. Most people here in
Speaker 1: Chile are are mixed, you know, between the the natives
Speaker 1: and and the white men and everything, and you know
Speaker 1: the Europeans um, but the Mapuche and the other indigenous
Speaker 1: groups have really not um received a lot of respect
Speaker 1: in the last thirty years. And and so yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a big aspect. Yeah. For me, it's very inspiring to
Speaker 1: have like the pressing of this new constitution to be
Speaker 1: uh I'm a bit woman, so um yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I guess that the most important thing, like the thing
Speaker 1: that this indigenous people want to claim is their land.
Speaker 1: I mean land for them is the most important thing.
Speaker 1: And that's what the government only for the last three
Speaker 1: hundred years they have been taken from to them. Um.
Speaker 1: They are now like trying to claim again their their
Speaker 1: their space. So I mean, let's go that this new
Speaker 1: constitution will bring them back their land, um, the respect
Speaker 1: that they deserve. Now, there's been a lot of discussion
Speaker 1: about this, this new constitution as I think the term
Speaker 1: used as an ecological constitution, um, and it's it's the
Speaker 1: necessity of it addressing a lot of the climate, not
Speaker 1: just climate change, but like a lot of the things
Speaker 1: caused by climate change, like unequal access to water. Um.
Speaker 1: There's been discussion asio costa of of the f I
Speaker 1: m A and GEO has has is arguing currently that
Speaker 1: the Constitution needs to enshrine a human right to water
Speaker 1: and recognize it as a common good. Um. It's obviously
Speaker 1: again they're writing it this week, so it's kind of
Speaker 1: unclear if that's going to happen. UM. But I'm I'm
Speaker 1: wondering kind of what you what y'all think it's actually
Speaker 1: because as you've talked about, you know, with the protests ongoing,
Speaker 1: with the military being deployed in the South, this is
Speaker 1: not a finished fight. Um, it's just a fight that
Speaker 1: a lot of progress has been made on what do
Speaker 1: you think is reasonable to expect from this new constitution
Speaker 1: in terms of of of climate change, in terms of
Speaker 1: ecological justice. Also, I think the right of the of water.
Speaker 1: So water is privatized here, so Chileans here in Santiago,
Speaker 1: we have to pay a Spanish company too for our water. Sure. Um,
Speaker 1: I would say, like the economy in this country is
Speaker 1: based on like structivism, So you have like the most
Speaker 1: productive things mining, and then you have like the forestry
Speaker 1: and all these things, like they have an enormous impact
Speaker 1: on the environment and the people until I mean the
Speaker 1: people who live right next to these kind of things,
Speaker 1: they don't get anything from them. I mean, the poorest
Speaker 1: places are like right next to the forest trees, rightness
Speaker 1: to the mining. So it's kind of like we're creating
Speaker 1: a lot of income from these things, but we're not
Speaker 1: getting anything from them and all. I mean Also, it's
Speaker 1: not like a thing like let's get everything back to
Speaker 1: the state, I mean to the state, because it's it's
Speaker 1: more than that. It's just like like um, ecological equality, equity. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not saying we should take all of the private
Speaker 1: water and give it to the state as much as
Speaker 1: it's saying everyone who lives here has a has a
Speaker 1: personal right to enough water to survive life. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you have rounds where small little towns and uh, they
Speaker 1: don't have any water to drink because all of their
Speaker 1: water is to the going to the farm owned by
Speaker 1: Nessley to make, you know, to grow avocados to sell
Speaker 1: to Europe and the United States. So, um, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's it's a pretty crazy thing. One of
Speaker 1: the things that's most interesting to me about your situation
Speaker 1: is you you are in a place where not entirely
Speaker 1: similar dissimilar from the United States, you have a police
Speaker 1: in a military that are heavily dominated by by right
Speaker 1: wing ideology. Obviously, like the United States is partly responsible
Speaker 1: for that in your case, we we funded it for
Speaker 1: a very long time. Um and uh. And so it's
Speaker 1: still an ongoing fight. But at the same time, clearly
Speaker 1: the people are unhappy enough with that situation and hold
Speaker 1: like that they were able to make. They were able
Speaker 1: to force the folks with with guns to um to
Speaker 1: recognize that they can't hold on to everything that they
Speaker 1: wanted to hold onto. And I I guess I'm what
Speaker 1: how can we do that? Um, I'm I'm very impressed
Speaker 1: by like, and you know, watching from the sidelines, I
Speaker 1: was just so happy to see this not go where
Speaker 1: I think we were all scared it might go, you know,
Speaker 1: in either the direction with like Syria, where it turns
Speaker 1: into this horrible blood bath, or where everything gets crushed,
Speaker 1: you know it. And and I I'm wondering, like why
Speaker 1: you think on a on a broader scale, what do
Speaker 1: you think was responsible for those people with access to
Speaker 1: the guns deciding we can't hold onto this. Like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm so intensely curious about that because it's
Speaker 1: it's it's important for a lot of people and a
Speaker 1: lot of other parts of the world. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean I think it was just the protests and
Speaker 1: the daily protests and and just getting out there, keeping
Speaker 1: the pressure on. And at some point, you know, it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: this is not good for the economy, you know, like
Speaker 1: so all of the rich people, um, and you know,
Speaker 1: the ten families that are in control of you know,
Speaker 1: sixty or seventy percent of the wealth of the country. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they at some point had to recognize that this
Speaker 1: was something that that you know, had reached its boiling
Speaker 1: point and and they could no longer respond with just
Speaker 1: force because they tried it and it didn't work for
Speaker 1: months and it was just months and months of protests
Speaker 1: and um and uh. And obviously that caused a hit
Speaker 1: to the economy and that caused a hit to the
Speaker 1: wallets of of the ultra rich. And so at some
Speaker 1: point they they realized that they had no other move
Speaker 1: to play than to accept it in some way and uh,
Speaker 1: and that's how we got, you know, this new constitution
Speaker 1: that is being written. One thing I was interested about
Speaker 1: is the geography of the protest because I know Chili
Speaker 1: very urban population. And also it was is it like
Speaker 1: it's like a quarter of the population or something lives
Speaker 1: in Santiago, like in in that area, And I'm yeah,
Speaker 1: so sorry. I just want to note, if I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 1: there were only five. You have kind of communes instead
Speaker 1: of states, is what they're called. Um, like ten voted
Speaker 1: in favor of the referendum and only five voted against it.
Speaker 1: If I'm not mistaken, Well, communes are within cities like
Speaker 1: different It's like Burroughs in New York, but we have
Speaker 1: different regions instead of states. And um, and I think
Speaker 1: they all voted. They might be like seven. But when
Speaker 1: you might be thinking of um of yeah, Robert, you
Speaker 1: might be thinking of communes in Santiago where Santiago is
Speaker 1: very um. So it's all on the Rio Mapocho, the
Speaker 1: river which goes east to west across the city and
Speaker 1: basically you have this like very rich part on the
Speaker 1: east and up into the hills and um, and then
Speaker 1: it gets poorer and poorer as you go to the west.
Speaker 1: And um. Yeah for the vote for the constitution, Um,
Speaker 1: it was everyone voted for the constitution except for these communes,
Speaker 1: these ultra rich in the east. Amazing, Okay, just think
Speaker 1: it's something was curious about this was so when when
Speaker 1: the protests were going on, um, because you know Chile's
Speaker 1: had like huge protests before, I mean even the last
Speaker 1: decade or what I was interested still also with this
Speaker 1: time is like, well, hey, what do you think it
Speaker 1: is different about this than say like two thousand and
Speaker 1: eleven ChIL wasn't thirteen? And then be in terms of
Speaker 1: like the geographic breakdown of where people are and where
Speaker 1: they're going, is it that you know? So so you
Speaker 1: have this, you have this classifying the city, but we're
Speaker 1: the working class districts, like we're people staying there in
Speaker 1: those graf structure where they like moving from those places
Speaker 1: like to protest inside of the richer urban areas. I
Speaker 1: would say, like, I mean, yeah, we have like many
Speaker 1: protests in the past, but there were more kind of
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like students protests, and then you
Speaker 1: have like you know, like university protests. But when we
Speaker 1: have like this protest like that the one we have
Speaker 1: on TODWNSA nineteen, it's like something that unites everyone. I mean,
Speaker 1: you don't have to be a students, you don't have
Speaker 1: to go to university to protest. I mean it's something
Speaker 1: that it's affecting everyone. I mean, the fairs of the metro,
Speaker 1: they affect everything on the in the quality in the
Speaker 1: country affects everyone. So um, I mean that I guess
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing that make this protests of the
Speaker 1: TOTASA nineteen unique in this term. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: it was actually a problem when all the protests were happening,
Speaker 1: A lot of people were saying, we can't keep going
Speaker 1: to the plaza. You know, the cops are just going
Speaker 1: to wait for us in the Plaza and you know
Speaker 1: it's going to be a ship show and we need
Speaker 1: to you know, protest all over and there were protests
Speaker 1: across Chile and every single major city. UM but I
Speaker 1: will say the majority of the protests have been um
Speaker 1: here in the plaza and close to Lamoneta where the
Speaker 1: presidential palace and UM but some of the most memoriab
Speaker 1: protests center to and and the Coast Nara Center, the
Speaker 1: tallest building in Latin America, which is a mall and
Speaker 1: a monument to this idea that Pinera has of um,
Speaker 1: the way of Chile being an oasis in South America.
Speaker 1: We're not like other countries where we're like the United States,
Speaker 1: you know, where this capitalism capitalists oasis and exactly. Um
Speaker 1: but but yeah, so some of the most memoriabal protests,
Speaker 1: they weren't super common, but we're exactly that where the
Speaker 1: people said, you know what, we're not going to the plaza,
Speaker 1: we're going to Coast Nara Center where we're going to
Speaker 1: vist the coora, We're going to where the millionaires live,
Speaker 1: where they work, and um that those were really powerful
Speaker 1: and so that's when you started to see like all
Speaker 1: of those banks and malls and just blocks and blocks
Speaker 1: of what the rich folk like to call Sanhattan, you know,
Speaker 1: Santiago Manhattan, the skyscraper part of the city, and it
Speaker 1: was just all boarded up, you know. Um because there
Speaker 1: there were definitely a couple of weeks where the protests
Speaker 1: went that way, and and and yeah, it was inspiring.
Speaker 1: What I keep coming back to when I look about
Speaker 1: like why it worked, It wasn't because the front liners
Speaker 1: just kept the pressure up, because the front liners did
Speaker 1: in a lot of places here, the front liners stayed
Speaker 1: out well after everyone else stopped coming out. It's that
Speaker 1: the population kept up the pressure, like the there were
Speaker 1: like Chile as a as a as a nation, as
Speaker 1: a as a people kept up the pressure in in
Speaker 1: a in a pretty significant way, um as opposed to
Speaker 1: kind of fading back after the first couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: And I mean it, I think, I'm sure the question
Speaker 1: of why it happened has a lot to do with,
Speaker 1: like you said, inequality, you know, things that have been
Speaker 1: going on for decades. It's it's a it's a complex situation,
Speaker 1: but it does seem like that's one of the big
Speaker 1: takeaways that if you can you can secure even in
Speaker 1: even in a pretty terrifying situation. A lot of concessions,
Speaker 1: a lot of of what you need, but but people
Speaker 1: have to have to keep putting themselves out there. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I would say it's a couple of things. Um. One
Speaker 1: is um, as you mentioned, I think it's like the
Speaker 1: culture of protests here, you know, especially in the last
Speaker 1: ten years, like um with the revolution penguins inleven Um,
Speaker 1: you know, and there are and the feminist protests and um.
Speaker 1: So it's it's not something that just happened two years ago.
Speaker 1: It's the last decade or two has has and the people,
Speaker 1: especially the young people, going out there and protesting. And
Speaker 1: that's that's one thing that's inspiring about Borid the candidate
Speaker 1: for president. The election is next month, so the left
Speaker 1: wing candidate, Boridge, and he came out of that movement.
Speaker 1: He was a student protester and a leader of the
Speaker 1: student movement. And so I think it's like it grew
Speaker 1: out of that, it grew out of kids in high
Speaker 1: school saying this is just what we do. This is normal.
Speaker 1: We go out there and protest when when ship happens.
Speaker 1: And and the other thing is, yeah, you know we
Speaker 1: always say here in Chile, after the protests started. Um,
Speaker 1: it's not thirty pace those it's thirty years, you know,
Speaker 1: thirty years of neoliberalism, of this revolving door of center
Speaker 1: right and center left, and and just continuing on with
Speaker 1: the um economic oppress and and the other thing I
Speaker 1: feel like people don't understand is that, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: people either think Chile is like the United States or
Speaker 1: they think it's like Peru or something, you know, and
Speaker 1: it's really neither. In Chile, the minimum wage is half
Speaker 1: of what the United States is, which is already terrible.
Speaker 1: But um, the cost of living here is almost the
Speaker 1: same as you guys in Portland. I mean, not the
Speaker 1: housing probably, but like you know, yeah, yeah, it's like Europe.
Speaker 1: You know, I could move to Berlin and live cheaper
Speaker 1: than here, you know, but it is hard to of
Speaker 1: three times that, you know. So so I think it's
Speaker 1: that's the other thing is people just they they had
Speaker 1: no other choice, you know, and we're just poured down
Speaker 1: by by thirty years, you know, after twenty years of
Speaker 1: the dictatorship, thirty years of this terrible wages and um,
Speaker 1: just neoliberalism, and so so I think it's it's partially
Speaker 1: that and partially just like the culture of protests that
Speaker 1: grew out of the student movements in in the early
Speaker 1: two thousand's. Mm hmm. Yeah. There was one thing that
Speaker 1: was interesting, also interested about that I don't remember seeing
Speaker 1: much of at the time, was what was Chilian organized
Speaker 1: labor doing during this It's a good question. Honestly, labor
Speaker 1: hasn't been a big part of the protest, at least
Speaker 1: from my point of view. You know, I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it took a pretty strong hit during the
Speaker 1: Pinochet years, if I'm not mistaken, So there was kind
Speaker 1: of that, Like, I guess that does make sense. Sure, Yeah, Honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't know a whole lot about labor history here
Speaker 1: in Chile, but um but yeah, it definitely is. I
Speaker 1: mean you would see you know, um union groups in
Speaker 1: the straits here and there, but um but but definitely
Speaker 1: they weren't a leading voice in the protest, I would say. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: I guess that leads into the other. I guess one
Speaker 1: of the other things that, from from my understanding, has
Speaker 1: been happening all across Latin America, but but in in
Speaker 1: chill in particular, is the rise of the informal sector
Speaker 1: and people just sort of not having access to sort
Speaker 1: of stable wages in labor. And I'm wondering about Okay,
Speaker 1: so organized labors, like the classical unions aren't really involved
Speaker 1: in this, And I guess I'm interested in how if
Speaker 1: I'm right that that you're dealing with a lot of
Speaker 1: people who aren't doing traditional labor stuff, what was the
Speaker 1: process that was able to get people mobilized. It's like,
Speaker 1: especially people who just have no sort of like people,
Speaker 1: people who are in the informal sector and people who
Speaker 1: aren't involved in the sort of older classical organizations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I would just say it's
Speaker 1: like that that culture of protest um that comes from
Speaker 1: the young people, uh in the last twenty years. And
Speaker 1: then of course, um, the older folks who um, you know,
Speaker 1: uh lived through the dictatorship, and of course, um, there
Speaker 1: were an incredible protest at that time too. And and
Speaker 1: so I don't know, I mean, honestly, I was, even
Speaker 1: after living here for you know, six years, UM, I
Speaker 1: was shocked. I never thought it would come to this.
Speaker 1: I never thought I would see, you know, over half
Speaker 1: a million people in the streets of Santiago, um. And
Speaker 1: and I would never never thought we'd see a new constitution. So, UM,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't, I don't have the answer
Speaker 1: is it's uh, it's surprising to me. But UM, what
Speaker 1: I will say though, is I don't want to paint
Speaker 1: a Rosie portrait of Chile right now because if like
Speaker 1: we mentioned, you know, uh, tomorrow night, if you guys
Speaker 1: go to uh Galerria sema c I m A on
Speaker 1: YouTube or instagram. Um, they have a live feed of
Speaker 1: the plaza for blocks from our house. And every Friday,
Speaker 1: you know, use the protests come out and sometimes the
Speaker 1: cops are there right away and they make a whole
Speaker 1: perimeter with two cops and all of the you know,
Speaker 1: tanks and everything, UM, blocking entrance to the plaza in
Speaker 1: every direction. Sometimes they let the people protest. But then
Speaker 1: at ten o'clock, you know, after the sun comes down,
Speaker 1: they come out there and you know, it's it's the
Speaker 1: same thing were a young woman was was killed a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. So and the other thing is
Speaker 1: that we have this election coming up, and uh they
Speaker 1: sky cast extreme right winger Pino Certista um just like
Speaker 1: they call him the Chilean Bosonaro um A real piece
Speaker 1: of ship. And uh he has, Um, he has really
Speaker 1: risen in the polls in the last month or two. UM.
Speaker 1: The right wing candidate Sitchell, who won the right wing primaries, UM,
Speaker 1: and was kind of going to be the successor to Pinera,
Speaker 1: the current right wing president. UM. Because in Chile, you know,
Speaker 1: you can't run consecutive you can't have consecutive terms. UM.
Speaker 1: But Sitchell just kind of was not a great candidate
Speaker 1: and uh kind of blew it and and he went
Speaker 1: down and and now Cast is going up. And it's
Speaker 1: really scary to think about Cast getting into the second round, UM,
Speaker 1: where it will probably be him verse Boris and UM.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, you know, even though the constitution was
Speaker 1: approved by seventy of the country, UM, you know, it's
Speaker 1: very possible that this election is going to come down
Speaker 1: to a runoff between a you know, moderate socialist like Boridge, UM,
Speaker 1: not the most extreme leftist in fact, known as Amario,
Speaker 1: you know, very yellow bellied here in Chile, that's his nickname. UM.
Speaker 1: But it will probably Right now, it's looking like it's
Speaker 1: going to come down to him and Cast, who is
Speaker 1: like almost a return to the dictatorship. So it's it's
Speaker 1: pretty scary geez. So it's just this there's just so
Speaker 1: much fighting to do. Yeah, it's just so much fighting
Speaker 1: to do. Um, I mean I I uh yeah, um,
Speaker 1: do you have do any of you have anything else?
Speaker 1: You want to make sure you say or talk out
Speaker 1: before we kind of close out for the day. Oh no,
Speaker 1: I will say, like three days ago, I just pay
Speaker 1: my I finally pay my whole student loan. Like like
Speaker 1: I've been working for more than ten years in my
Speaker 1: life since I finished the university, and I've been wasted,
Speaker 1: I mean all my savings. I just pay this fucking
Speaker 1: student loan. I guess that you guys in this in
Speaker 1: the States are like the same, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: except for people don't pay off their student stays there forever.
Speaker 1: And I just I just I would like to wish
Speaker 1: to the other, to the coming people that I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't wish that future for my from I mean
Speaker 1: for the future people in this country. I don't wish
Speaker 1: anyone that I mean university, I mean all students should
Speaker 1: be um study for free. I mean it's like unconsiderable
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, So that was a big part of it.
Speaker 1: And then also the I fit pay pension system here,
Speaker 1: which is totally privatized, and so you, uh, you, the
Speaker 1: government just takes your money for retirement. You get to
Speaker 1: choose between four or five options which are private companies,
Speaker 1: and then um, if you make money, then the company
Speaker 1: takes you know, their chunk of your your retirement as
Speaker 1: the payment for managing your fund. But if you lose money,
Speaker 1: then it's on you. So literally, you know, Stephie's mom
Speaker 1: is like, you know, checking on her retirement, how did
Speaker 1: I do this year? It's like, oh, you lost two
Speaker 1: thousand dollars this year. That's that's your requirement, Davis. You know,
Speaker 1: so you and you have you know, people here trying
Speaker 1: to live on you retirements of one hundred dollars a month. Wow,
Speaker 1: the military is receiving hey, thousand dollars a month. You know.
Speaker 1: So that was a big part of it. Um. But
Speaker 1: I think what I always come back to here in
Speaker 1: Chile is, like we've said, the activist renamed the plaza Plaza,
Speaker 1: dig me Dad, And that's what it all comes down
Speaker 1: to is just we're not asking for you know, ponies,
Speaker 1: as Hillary Clinton would say, We're not We're not asking
Speaker 1: for the moon. We're just asking for basic dignity that
Speaker 1: everyone deserves and it's as simple as that. So we
Speaker 1: just have to cross our fingers and hope that we've
Speaker 1: done enough that that you know, at a minimum, you know,
Speaker 1: people can live and retire with some dignity, that's all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, and that enough ecological justice can be gained
Speaker 1: that people can survive what's coming. Um. Which it's it's
Speaker 1: nice to see at the very least that that's a
Speaker 1: central topic of discussion. Um. Whereas in the United States,
Speaker 1: everyone in power seems fine with just ignoring the increasing
Speaker 1: problems right now. So I don't know, you know, I again,
Speaker 1: I also don't want to be painting too rosy a
Speaker 1: picture as you've as you've repeatedly clear, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of of struggle left still, um. But at least you've
Speaker 1: you've you've achieved a lot. And I I've just heartened
Speaker 1: by by hearing your story and and and hope that
Speaker 1: more people pay attention to what's happened there and try
Speaker 1: to take lessons from it, because I think we all
Speaker 1: need to be we all need to be gearing up
Speaker 1: um as as I'm sure you all will continue to
Speaker 1: continue to do anything else before we close out. UM. No,
Speaker 1: that's it. I mean, I completely agree. I think that
Speaker 1: just like the messages that like, you know, better things
Speaker 1: are possible, like you know, real real change can happen.
Speaker 1: You know, like this started uh two years ago with
Speaker 1: high schoolers protesting, and now we're going to have a
Speaker 1: vote on a new constitution and it's going to be
Speaker 1: an ecological constitution, a blurry natural national constitution, um, with
Speaker 1: respect for the indigenous people. It's it's uh, it's written
Speaker 1: by you know, an equal amount of men and women
Speaker 1: and everything, and and so yeah, just I think for me,
Speaker 1: it's so easy for us who have grown up in
Speaker 1: you know, under the gloom of neoliberalism, to to just
Speaker 1: get really depressed and fatalistic about it. And uh so
Speaker 1: for me, I feel the same way, like it's just
Speaker 1: such an inspiration and the Chilean and and especially the
Speaker 1: Chilean youth. Um. But but yeah, um, it's just an
Speaker 1: inspiration and uh and proof that that change can happen. Um.
Speaker 1: But it's not just voting. And you know, like Chileans
Speaker 1: have elected socialists, you know, the former president was a socialist,
Speaker 1: but it was just the same neo liberalism bullshit. So
Speaker 1: I think, you know, voting is great, but like that's
Speaker 1: just not enough, and so you have to, um, you know,
Speaker 1: get out in the streets and try to organize and
Speaker 1: make real change in other ways as well. All Right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree entirely. Thank you all for coming on. Um
Speaker 1: I couldn't appreciate it more and I hope you have
Speaker 1: a lovely rest of your day and a lovely continuing
Speaker 1: to uh stick it to the sons of bitches. It
Speaker 1: could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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