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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V.

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Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye.

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Speaker 2: If you're a regular listener to the show and you

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes in order, you have heard me

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Speaker 2: talk about getting into a topic that was unwieldy, and

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Speaker 2: so I dropped it immediately to instead do an episode

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Speaker 2: on electro cardiograms. Now we have come to the unwieldy topic.

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Speaker 2: For a very long time, novelist Edward Bulwert Lytton has

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Speaker 2: been lingering on my shortlist. His eighteen thirty novel Paul

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Speaker 2: Clifford started with the words it was a dark and

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Speaker 2: stormy night. Believe it or not, he was not the

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Speaker 2: first person ever to publish that phrase, but afterward it

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Speaker 2: became widely used and reused and satirized and lampooned, and

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Speaker 2: it even spawned the bulwer Lytton Fiction Contest for Bad

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Speaker 2: First Sentences, which was held at San Jose State University for.

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Speaker 1: Forty two years.

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Speaker 2: I really knew zero about Edward Bowler Lytton besides that

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Speaker 2: one thing, and so I was just kind of like

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Speaker 2: that guy, what was his deal there was in the shortlist.

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Speaker 2: More recently, I was trying to figure out if I

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Speaker 2: had access to enough information to do an episode on

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Speaker 2: Bianca Cappello, who was the sixteenth century Grand Duchess Consort

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Speaker 2: of Tuscany. Her life is described as full of scandal.

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Speaker 2: Horace Walpole, who we covered on the show back in October,

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Speaker 2: was talking about a painting of her when he coined

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Speaker 2: the word serendipity. So that quest led me to Edward

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Speaker 2: Bulwer Lytton's wife, Rosina, who wrote a historical novel about

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Speaker 2: Bianca Cappello in eighteen forty three, and it did not

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Speaker 2: take long for Rose to take her husband's place on

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Speaker 2: my short list and then to move up to the

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Speaker 2: top to do an episode. Edward is still a big

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Speaker 2: part of this episode, though, because it is really about

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Speaker 2: their marriage and their separation. According to Rosina, Edward was

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Speaker 2: abusive and he definitely had multiple affairs, and because married

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Speaker 2: women in England really had no legal status independently of

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Speaker 2: their husband, Rosina's options in this were incredibly limited. She

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Speaker 2: wrote that novel because she was trying to make ends

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Speaker 2: meet in the wake of their separation. This turned into

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Speaker 2: a two parter Today's episode is about Rosina's early life

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Speaker 2: and the early years of her relationship with Edward up

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Speaker 2: to their separation. Again, that story is going to involve abuse,

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Speaker 2: and then on Wednesday we will talk about their decades

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Speaker 2: of living in separation and Rosina's very embittered writing about it.

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Speaker 2: Rosina Doyle Wheeler was born on November fourth, eighteen oh two,

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Speaker 2: in County Limerick, Ireland. She was the daughter of Francis

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Speaker 2: Massey Wheeler and Anna Doyle Wheeler. Francis and Anna had

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Speaker 2: six children together, but only two of them survived their infancy,

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Speaker 2: Rosina and her older sister, Henrietta, who was born in

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Speaker 2: eighteen oh one. Anna Wheeler was known to be clever, witty,

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Speaker 2: well read, and extremely beautiful. She was self educated and

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Speaker 2: that education included things like French philosophy and the writing

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Speaker 2: of Mary Wolstoncraft. Anna became an advocate for cooperative socialism

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Speaker 2: and for women's rights, and she also co authored a

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Speaker 2: work called Appeal of one half of the Human Race,

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Speaker 2: Women against the pretensions of the other half men to

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Speaker 2: retain them in political and hence in civil and domestic slavery.

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Speaker 2: In reply to a paragraph of mister Mill's celebrated article

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Speaker 2: on government. Her co author in this piece was William Thompson.

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Speaker 2: Anna and William didn't write this until eighteen twenty five,

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Speaker 2: when Rosina was already an adult, but it does help

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Speaker 2: illustrate the political and legal position of women in the

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Speaker 2: UK at this point, and the kinds of opinions Rosina

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Speaker 2: would have been exposed to through her mother. The paragraph

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Speaker 2: that Anna and William were responding to was written by

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Speaker 2: James Mill in an essay on government that was printed

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Speaker 2: in Encyclopedia Britannica. That paragraph read quote, one thing is

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Speaker 2: pretty clear that all those individuals whose interests are indisputably

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Speaker 2: included in those of other individuals may be struck off

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Speaker 2: from political rights without inconvenience. In this light may be

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Speaker 2: viewed all children up to a certain age whose interests

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Speaker 2: are involved in those of their parents. In this light,

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Speaker 2: women may also be regarded the interest of almost all

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Speaker 2: of whom is involved either in that of their fathers

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Speaker 2: or in that of their husbands. Ill co written by

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Speaker 2: Anna Wheeler and William Thompson, calls this paragraph offensive and

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Speaker 2: anti social. The introduction to the appeal is framed as

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Speaker 2: a letter from Thompson to Wheeler, and it read in

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Speaker 2: part quote, You look forward, as I do, to a

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Speaker 2: state of society very different from that which now exists,

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Speaker 2: in which the effort of all is to outwit, supplant

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Speaker 2: and snatch from each other. Where interest is systematically opposed

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Speaker 2: to duty, where the so called system of morals is

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Speaker 2: little more than a mass of hypocrisy preached by knaves,

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Speaker 2: unpracticed by them to keep their slaves male as well

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Speaker 2: as female, in blind, uninquiring obedience, And where the whole

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Speaker 2: Botley fabric is kept together by fear and blood. You

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Speaker 2: look forward to a better aspect of society, where the

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Speaker 2: principle of benevolence shall supersede that of fear, Where restless

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Speaker 2: and anxious individual competition shall give place to mutual cooperation

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Speaker 2: and joint possession. Where individuals in large numbers, male and female,

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Speaker 2: forming voluntary associations shall become a mutual guarantee to each

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Speaker 2: other for the supply of all useful wants, and form

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Speaker 2: an unsalaried and uninsolvent insurance company against all ensurable casualties.

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Speaker 2: Where perfect freedom of opinion and perfect equality will reign

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Speaker 2: amongst the cooperators, and where the children of all will

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Speaker 2: be equally educated and provided for by the whole, even

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Speaker 2: these children longer the slaves of individual caprice.

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Speaker 1: This piece noted that quote, the interests of men and

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Speaker 1: women are so involved in each other that political power

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Speaker 1: possessed by the one must be impartially used for the

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Speaker 1: benefit of both. But it also made a rhetorical argument

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Speaker 1: that if political power had to rest only with one sex,

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Speaker 1: then it should be women, because women were the weaker

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Speaker 1: party and would not be able to overlook the needs

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Speaker 1: of men the way men were able to overlook the

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Speaker 1: needs of women.

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Speaker 2: Anna Wheeler's thoughts on marriage were partially informed by her

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Speaker 2: own marriage. She and Frances got married when they were

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Speaker 2: both still in their teens. Her family, when they found

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Speaker 2: out about this relationship, had proposed to send her to London,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily to separate them, but just to give her

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Speaker 2: more time to grow up and to learn her own

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Speaker 2: mind before getting married, but that suggestion had just led

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Speaker 2: her to double down on her insistence that they get

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Speaker 2: married immediately. Frances seems to have been outwardly amiable, but

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Speaker 2: he also drank excessively and his behavior could be threatening.

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Speaker 2: According to Rosina's account, when she was born, her mother's

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Speaker 2: attendants were terrified to tell Francis that she was a girl,

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Speaker 2: because he had been so adamant about wanting a son

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Speaker 2: that they were legitimately scared of what his reaction would be.

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Speaker 2: In eighteen twelve, Anna left to Francis and she took

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Speaker 2: Henrietta and Rosina with her. They went to Guernsey, where

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Speaker 2: Anna's uncle, Sir John Doyle, was Lieutenant Governor. He had

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Speaker 2: been something of a surrogate father to Anna after her

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Speaker 2: own father's death. Mother and daughters moved into rooms at

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Speaker 2: the Government House, which was a lot more lavish than

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Speaker 2: where they'd been living in Kilross, Ireland. The girls had

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Speaker 2: a French governess and an assortment of tutors, and Rosina

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Speaker 2: described the atmosphere of the house as quote sort of

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Speaker 2: perpetual saturnalia that was allowed, unchecked to go on. She

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Speaker 2: also developed a flare for mimicry, imitating their governess and

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Speaker 2: their tutors and various guests who came to the Government House.

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Speaker 2: While this was a financially comfortable situation, Rosina still found

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Speaker 2: these years difficult. Henrietta was clearly their mother's favorite, and

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Speaker 2: Rosina later wrote, quote, I soon became that most miserable

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Speaker 2: of created beings, the neglected sister of a favorite and

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Speaker 2: favored child. Not that I envied Henrietta for being loved, indulged,

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Speaker 2: and privileged on all occasions, For it was impossible not

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Speaker 2: to love one so gentle, so gifted, and so good.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a matter of course that everyone

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Speaker 2: must do. So still I did long for a little

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Speaker 2: of my mother's love. The family left Guernsey in eighteen sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and we'll get to that after a sponsor break. Sir

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Speaker 2: John Doyle left office as Lieutenant Governor of Guernsey in

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Speaker 2: eighteen sixteen, so at that point the family no longer

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Speaker 2: had a place at the government house. Rosina and Henrietta

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Speaker 2: were sent to a private school in Kensington in London,

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Speaker 2: while their mother went to France. Their animde connections to socialists,

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Speaker 2: activists and philosophers, and she was nicknamed the Goddess of Reason.

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Speaker 2: She started to call for a redistribution of wealth that

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Speaker 2: will allow women to live independently of men. In eighteen twenty,

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Speaker 2: Rosina's father, Francis died and her older sister Henrietta inherited

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Speaker 2: his property in Ireland. Their mother started supplementing her income

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Speaker 2: with writing, lecturing, and translating work from French.

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Speaker 1: There's not a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of detail about the next few years of Versina's life,

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Speaker 2: but in October of eighteen twenty five she met Edward

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Speaker 2: George Earl Lytton Bulwer. He's known as Edward bulwerd Lytton today,

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Speaker 2: but that is a name change that happened a little later.

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Speaker 2: Edward was freshly returned from France. He had his hair

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Speaker 2: and ringlets, and he was carrying a cane and decked

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Speaker 2: out in French attire that wouldn't become fashionable in England

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Speaker 2: for another few years. Rosina described him as quote unmistakably gentlemanlike,

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Speaker 2: and he had a reputation for being simultaneously a dandy

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Speaker 2: and an intollal. Edward's acquaintances included novelist Lady Caroline Lamb,

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Speaker 2: who had become famous in part for her relationship with

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Speaker 2: George Gordon Lord Byron, who had died the previous year.

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Speaker 2: She's the person who described Lord Byron as mad, bad

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Speaker 2: and dangerous to know, according to Rosina's notations on Edward's

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Speaker 2: letters later on, at one point Caroline told her, quote,

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Speaker 2: don't let Edward Bulwer hunt you down. They are a

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Speaker 2: bad set. After meeting at a social event, Rosina and

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Speaker 2: Edwards started corresponding. For the most part, Edward's letters are

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Speaker 2: the ones that we have today. There are some published

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Speaker 2: collections of Rosina's letters, but they're not widely available in

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Speaker 2: the United States, and they are mostly letters to other people.

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Speaker 2: In his letters, Edward seems deeply enamored. Here's an example

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Speaker 2: of something that he wrote to Rosina. Quote, I have

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Speaker 2: twice begun to write, and twice I have destroyed what

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Speaker 2: I have written. This same restraint which oppressed me in speaking,

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Speaker 2: seems to operate also upon this method of uttering. The

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Speaker 2: feelings you have inspired, no matter their nature, you have discovered, love, admiration,

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Speaker 2: passion are not the less deeply felt for being imperfectly expressed.

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Speaker 2: The trembling of the voice, the embarrassment of manner, the

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Speaker 2: difficulty of expression, which diminished the eloquence due justice, at

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Speaker 2: least to the reality of feeling. From the first moment

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Speaker 2: I saw you, I was attracted towards you. The sentiments

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Speaker 2: you inspired carried me back to years of more fresh

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Speaker 2: and unsullied remembrance. They had no place among the ordinary

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Speaker 2: attachments which the world had more lately afforded me. I

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Speaker 2: could not define their nature. I could not reason them away.

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Speaker 2: In another letter later on, he wrote, Oh, my dear Rose,

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Speaker 2: where shall I find words to express my love for you?

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Speaker 2: Your kiss still dwells upon my lips, My hand still

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Speaker 2: thrills beneath your touch, and your breath still lingers on

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Speaker 2: my remembrance. Fraught, indeed with more treasures than in India Sea.

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Speaker 2: Eventually he started addressing his letters with endearments like my

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Speaker 2: dearest Rose and darlingest Poodle, which I must admit I

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Speaker 2: find kind of fun and affecting a sort of baby

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Speaker 2: talk writing style, like writing the word you as ooh

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Speaker 2: two o's yes as they got into the baby talk,

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Speaker 2: which is also the way that you might talk to

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Speaker 2: like a puppy that you're feeling very affectionately toward. I

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Speaker 2: found them. I was having like the vicarious embarrassment response

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Speaker 2: to reading them. A number of people have described them

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Speaker 2: in words like embarrassing and cringey. Edward, though, also wrote

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Speaker 2: a lot about his mother, Elizabeth Warburton Lytton, and his

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Speaker 2: fears that she would not approve of his relationship with Resina.

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Speaker 2: His father, William Earle Bulwer, had died when he was

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Speaker 2: only four, and by then Edward's older brothers had been

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Speaker 2: sent away to school, so it was just him and

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Speaker 2: his mom. His mother treated him almost like an only child.

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Speaker 2: He was her favorite, and she doted on him and

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Speaker 2: gave him an extravagant allowance, but that allowance was totally

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Speaker 2: at her prerogative. The only money he was actually legally

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Speaker 2: guaranteed was two hundred pounds a year from his father's will,

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Speaker 2: so Edward was really afraid of his mother cutting him off.

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Speaker 2: Rosina's sister, Henrietta, died in May of eighteen twenty six,

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Speaker 2: and Rosina inherited their father's property in Ireland at that point.

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Speaker 2: One of Edward's letters around this time attempted to console

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Speaker 2: her both about her sister's death and the state of

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Speaker 2: her relationship with her mother. Quote, your alienation from your

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00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,000
Speaker 2: sister seems formerly to have given you much pain. Now

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Speaker 2: that very fact makes your consolation. Separation from your mother

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Speaker 2: threw you into a situation which, to say the least,

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Speaker 2: was disadvantageous and unpleasant. But had you gone with her

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Speaker 2: to Paris, it is more than probable that we should

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Speaker 2: never have met. Let me trust that the last event

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Speaker 2: will not be the most unfortunate in your life. Sometime

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Speaker 2: in the months surrounding her sister's death, Rosina and Edward

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Speaker 2: became engaged, and his letters to her at this point

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Speaker 2: still sounded just besotted. Here's one quote, my darling, darling,

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Speaker 2: love and poodle. The more I think of you, the

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Speaker 2: more I love you. I dote upon you, even to madness,

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Speaker 2: your beauty so singularly perfect, your kind, noble, warm heart,

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Speaker 2: your temper so feeling, yet so subdued, Your generous and

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Speaker 2: devoted love, which my unworthiness, not my reason ever questions,

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Speaker 2: all impress themselves upon my mind. The deeper in proportion

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Speaker 2: to the consideration they receive. I see other women, I

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Speaker 2: turn from them, wearied and disgusted, because I compare them

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Speaker 2: with you. All that this world offers only seems to

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Speaker 2: me weary, stale, and unprofitable compared with one recollection of you.

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Speaker 1: Edward's mother did not know about the engagement, but she

246
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Speaker 1: and Rosina had met, and it was clear to Edward

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Speaker 1: that his mother did not approve of Rosina. In general.

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Speaker 1: Estimates of the value of the property that Rosina had

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Speaker 1: inherited in Ireland are really all over the place, but

250
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Speaker 1: it seems like it might have given her an income

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Speaker 1: of about three hundred pounds a year, so she wasn't penniless,

252
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Speaker 1: but she definitely wasn't wealthy or even financially comfortable. She

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Speaker 1: was also irish and outspoken, and at six months older

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Speaker 1: than Edward, too old in his mother's opinion. Rosina was

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00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:58,560
Speaker 1: also extremely beautiful, and even that was somehow suspect. In

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Speaker 1: September of eighteen twenty, Edward wrote Rezina a letter in

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Speaker 1: which he talked about his ambitions for the future. His

258
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,359
Speaker 1: mother wanted him to distinguish himself, and he thought that

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Speaker 1: if he did that, then she could have no objection

260
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Speaker 1: to anybody that he might want to marry. He thought

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Speaker 1: he might earn this distinction by becoming a Member of Parliament,

262
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Speaker 1: but there were income and property ownership requirements for MPs

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Speaker 1: that he did not meet, so he thought he might

264
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Speaker 1: make up the difference but in income requirements by writing.

265
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Speaker 1: So that became the plan. He would earn enough money

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Speaker 1: through writing to become eligible to be an MP. He

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00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,360
Speaker 1: would get elected, and then he would disclose his engagement

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Speaker 1: to his mother, and then they would get married. In

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Speaker 1: my head, there's a cartoon where he has a flow

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Speaker 1: chart of how his life is going to work does

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Speaker 1: kind of seem that way. I mean, so much of

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Speaker 1: it depends on things he cannot control, working out exactly

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Speaker 1: as he plans right. In October eight, eighteen twenty six,

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Speaker 1: Edward told his mother about the engagement, even though he

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Speaker 1: had not yet sold his first novel. This did not

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00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 1: go well, and Edward described a letter his mother had

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Speaker 1: written him this way quote, there is not in this

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Speaker 1: letter one kind expression to redeem its want of almost

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Speaker 1: human consideration for my feelings, and it ends with saying

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Speaker 1: that if I marry, I should have not her consent,

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Speaker 1: but her curse. The next several months of Edward and

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Speaker 1: Rosina's relationship sound chaotic and stressful. Edward was trying to

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Speaker 1: write a book, and Rosina was reading his drafts and

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Speaker 1: offering her opinions while also doing some writing work of

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Speaker 1: her own. Knowledge of his mother's disapproval seemed to just

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00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 1: underpin everything that they did. Edward's mother also allegedly sent

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Speaker 1: people to Ireland's to investigate Rosina's family. There, the couple

288
00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,160
Speaker 1: kept setting dates for a wedding and then postponing it,

289
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 1: and at least three times Rosina called the engagement off entirely,

290
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 1: but then they resumed the relationship. Edward sold his first novel, Falkland,

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Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty seven. It was not the financial success

292
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,160
Speaker 1: that he hoped it would be, but he and Rosina

293
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 1: got married in Piccadilly on August twenty ninth of that year.

294
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Speaker 1: His mother did not come to the wedding, and afterward,

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Speaker 1: as she'd threatened to do, she cut off his allowance,

296
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Speaker 1: leaving him only with his inheritance from his father and

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00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: what he could earn on his own. She also refused

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Speaker 1: to see him, and she returned all of his letters

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Speaker 1: unopened for more than a year. In one of his

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Speaker 1: many letters, Edward had told Rosina that because of this

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Speaker 1: whole situation with his mother and his reduced income, they

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00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 1: might have to live abroad in total isolation. Instead, they

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00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 1: moved to a secluded house in Oxfordshire, where Edward kept

304
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Speaker 1: trying to be a successful writer with Rosina's on ongoing help.

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Speaker 1: We will talk about how their marriage evolved from this

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00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 1: after we pause for another sponsor break.

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Speaker 2: Before they got married, it seems like Edward and Rosina

308
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,640
Speaker 2: had talked a whole lot about what their lives might

309
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Speaker 2: be like if they got married without his mother's approval.

310
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Speaker 2: But even so, it just doesn't seem like they were

311
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 2: fully prepared for that reality when it finally arrived. Edward

312
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 2: continued to write Rosina really gushing letters when they were apart,

313
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Speaker 2: but he also worked himself just to exhaustion trying to

314
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Speaker 2: earn money as a writer, and he expected Rosina's continual

315
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 2: help with that writing. He still had an eye on

316
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 2: a seat in Parliament, and by eighteen twenty eight he

317
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 2: started hinting to Rosina that it might be possible that

318
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: he could claim the Doyle baronetcy threw his marriage to her.

319
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 2: By that point, Rosina was pregnant, and her first allegation

320
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 2: of Edward's physical abuse was during that pregnancy. She said

321
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,160
Speaker 2: she had been helping him.

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Speaker 1: In their library, but she got tired and she had

323
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Speaker 1: to lie down on the couch. When he asked her

324
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Speaker 1: to go up a ladder to get him another book,

325
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Speaker 1: she told him that she was too tired to do it,

326
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Speaker 1: and at that point he kicked her. Edward's novel Pelham

327
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 1: or the Adventures of a Gentleman was published in May

328
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Speaker 1: of eighteen twenty eight, and it became a huge bestseller.

329
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Speaker 1: Their daughter, Emily Elizabeth was born the following month, on

330
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Speaker 1: June twenty seventh. Soon after this, Edward decided that Emily

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Speaker 1: should be sent to a wet nurse because if she

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Speaker 1: stayed at home, she would take up too much of

333
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: Rosina's time when he needed her help with his writing.

334
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: By mid July, Rosina was having eye trouble, which a

335
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Speaker 1: doctor attributed to her constant weeping at being separated from

336
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Speaker 1: her daughter. The doctor ordered her to spend three months

337
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 1: recovering at the seaside town of Weymouth. Edward claimed that Rosina.

338
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Speaker 2: Really wasn't affected by this, and that she had always

339
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 2: been more fond of their dogs.

340
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Speaker 1: With the money that he earned from his novel, Edward

341
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: bought a house on Hertford Street in the Mayfair district

342
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: of London, and the family moved there. He started making

343
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: more political connections, and he started repairing his relationship with

344
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Speaker 1: his mother, which added another layer of strain to his marriage,

345
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 1: because Elizabeth could be very domineering and as we have established,

346
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Speaker 1: she did not approve of Rosina at all.

347
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Speaker 2: In the spring of eighteen thirty one, Edward was elected

348
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 2: MP for Saint Ives. He met the property ownership requirement

349
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: through the estate in Ireland that had belonged to Rosina's father.

350
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 2: Because the way marriage worked under British law, women's property

351
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: belonged to their husband. On November eighth of that year,

352
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 2: their son, Edward Roberts known as Robert, was born. In

353
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 2: eighteen thirty two, the Great Reform Act was passed in

354
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Speaker 2: the UK which reformed the parliamentary system and changed the

355
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 2: requirements to become an MP. This law changed the parliamentary map,

356
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: getting rid of so called rotten boroughs that had two

357
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: members of Parliament but almost no population to represent. It

358
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 2: also reduced the number of MPs in smaller districts, including

359
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: Saint Ives, which dropped from two MPs to one. This

360
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: law also loosened up the property ownership requirements for becoming

361
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: an MP, which allowed Edward to sell Rosina's property in Ireland,

362
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 2: which he did for a little more than thirty seven

363
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: hundred pounds. Rosina had no say at all in this decision,

364
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 2: again because of those same laws about how marriage worked.

365
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 2: After this reform bill passed, Edward was elected MP for Lincoln,

366
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 2: and that was a seat that he held until eighteen

367
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 2: forty one. In the fall of eighteen thirty three, Edward

368
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 2: and Rosina took a trip to Naples, arriving there that November.

369
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 2: Edward is described as exhausted at this point from years

370
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 2: of writing incessantly to try to maintain their income and lifestyle,

371
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: but he also wrote. While they were there, he finished

372
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 2: most of his novel The Last Days of Pompeii, which

373
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: would be published in eighteen thirty four and become his

374
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: most successful book. Edward had been having extramarital affairs which

375
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 2: Rosina knew about, and this included being involved with a

376
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: married woman on this trip, and he also again became

377
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 2: violent with Rosina while they were in Naples. Rosina's lady's maid,

378
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: Rosetta Byrne, gave a sworn statement about what had happened

379
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: later on, and here is what she wrote. Quote, Mister

380
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 2: Edward Lytton Bulwer did her ladyship not only as to

381
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: cruel neglect and infidelity, but also as to acts of

382
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: brutal personal violence, amongst others. On one occasion, when traveling

383
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: in Italy in eighteen thirty three, one night at the

384
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 2: Lake of Bolsano, he so nashed the things about and

385
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: at her ladyship that even Luigi the courier avowed he

386
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: would not continue the journey with him again at Naples,

387
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 2: after having, in one of his brutal rages, kicked and

388
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 2: banged her ladyship against the stone floor at the Hotel

389
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 2: Vittoria till she was black and blue and had to

390
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 2: keep her bed. A few days after because people began

391
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: to talk of this at Naples, he made her poor

392
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: lady get up and dress herself to go to a

393
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: great dinner at Lord Hertford's. Edward and Rosina returned to

394
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: England in early eighteen thirty four, and there was another

395
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 2: major violent incident that July. Rosina's lady's maid described this

396
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: in the same sworn testament quote. After we got back

397
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: to London, and his temper continued awful towards her ladyship

398
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: for having asked him for money to pay the house

399
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: bills left unpaid when they were abroad. So one day

400
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: in July eighteen thirty four, at dinner at their house

401
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: thirty six Hertford Street, Mayfair, London, he seized a carving

402
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 2: knife and rushed at his wife when she cried out,

403
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: for God's sake, Edward, take care what you are about.

404
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: Then he dropped the knife and sprang on her like

405
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: a tiger made his teeth meet in her left cheek

406
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: until her screams brought the men servants back into the

407
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 2: dining room. In Rosina's account, this started when she told

408
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: her husband that she was going to a christening and

409
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: he asked who she was going with. Rosina told him,

410
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: and he reportedly said, my mother calls her that ugly

411
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: old woman, like over and over again. And when Rosina

412
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: just didn't acknowledge him, Edward asked if she had heard him.

413
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 2: She said that she had, and when Edward asked why

414
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 2: she hadn't answered him, she said she didn't think it

415
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: required an answer, and that was when he had come

416
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: at her with a knife. Shortly after this incident, Edward

417
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: wrote Rosina a letter that's said, in part quote, I

418
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: am now convinced of what I have long believed. I

419
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: am only fit to live alone. God and nature afflicted

420
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: me with unsocial habits, weak nerves, and violent passions. Everything

421
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: in my life tended to feed these infirmities until they

422
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 2: have become a confirmed and incurable disease, which nothing but

423
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: a gentle pity, a forbearing soothing, watchful compassion as of

424
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 2: a nurse over a madman can render bearable to me

425
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 2: or others. They decided to separate, and Edward said that

426
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: he would provide Rosina with six hundred pounds a year,

427
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: paid out quarterly. He advised her to sell the house

428
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: because she wouldn't be able to afford it on that amount,

429
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: and he said that where she and the children lived

430
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: and how were up to her, although he might decide

431
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: to have an influence on their son's education when he

432
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 2: got a little older. At this point, their daughter was

433
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: six and their son was three. This was an informal separation,

434
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: and over the next few years Rosina and Edward made

435
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: some attempts to reconcile. The final straw that led them

436
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 2: to legally separate seems to have happened in eighteen thirty six.

437
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 2: Edward had told Rosina that he was going to have

438
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 2: dinner with her, and then at the last minute, a

439
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: servant brought word to her that he was ill. Rosina

440
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: went to his rooms to see if he was okay

441
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 2: and to take care of him if necessary, and she

442
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: found him with a woman named Laura Deacon. Edward very

443
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: indignantly claimed that Rosina had jumped to conclusions and attacked

444
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: him after simply seeing that there were two teacups on

445
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: the table, but this relationship with Laura Deacon was ongoing,

446
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: and the two of them ultimately had three children together.

447
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: The only way to obtain a divorce in the UK

448
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: at this point was through an act of Parliament. A

449
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: man could initiate ate a divorce bill on the grounds

450
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: of adultery, and a woman could do so on the

451
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: grounds of adultery and also cruelty. Only very wealthy people

452
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: could afford to do this, really wealthier than Edward and Rosina, probably,

453
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: but beyond that, Edward had no proof that Rosina had

454
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: ever been unfaithful, although there had been some rumors that

455
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: she had flirted with a prince while they were in Naples.

456
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: Rosina might have been able to prove Edward's infidelity, but

457
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: she would also have to prove that he was cruel

458
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: That would have been a lot harder. That sworn statement

459
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: from her maid is something that was written much later on,

460
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: and even if she had had something like that to

461
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: use as evidence, Edward would have gone to great links

462
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: to defend himself from allegations of cruelty. That was just

463
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: not something that he would have been willing to admit to.

464
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: So they legally separated on April nineteenth, eighteen thirty six.

465
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: Their deed of separation said, in part quote, whereas unhappy

466
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: differences have arisen and still subsist between this said Edward

467
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: George Earl Lytton Bulwer and Rosina and his wife, by

468
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: reason whereof they have agreed to live separate and apart

469
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: from each other for the future. And whereas the said

470
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: Edward George Earl Lytton Bulwer has proposed to allow unto

471
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: or intrust for the said Rosina and Bulward during the

472
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: said separation the yearly sum of four hundred pounds as

473
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: a provision for her maintenance and support.

474
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: The deed of separation also specified that Rosina would get

475
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: an additional fifty pounds per year for each of her

476
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: children as long as they lived with her, and it

477
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: established two trustees for her, Sir Francis Hastings Doyle and

478
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: the Reverend Sir Thomas Gary Cullum.

479
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: On June fourteenth, eighteen thirty six, Rosina and her children

480
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: moved out of Edward's home. She and Edward were both

481
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: thirty three, and the children were seven and four. Since

482
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: Edward and Rosina were still legally married, she still had

483
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: no legal or economic rights apart from him, and was

484
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: totally dependent on his support. Unlike her mother, she didn't

485
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: have a father figure in a high ranking government position

486
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: that she could move in with along with her children.

487
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: Sir John Doyle, who had sheltered them when Rosina was

488
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: a child, had died two years before this. This was

489
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: not a case in which Rosina and Edward happily went

490
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: their own way after being separated, and the words of

491
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: her maid's sworn statement quote, he has ever since hunted

492
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: her through the world with spies and bad women, and

493
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: does not allow her enough to live upon for a

494
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: lady in her station.

495
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: After their separation, Rosina wrote a lot both to make

496
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: up for a lack of income and to make sure

497
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: that the world knew what she thought of her husband.

498
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: And we're going to get into all of that next time.

499
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: Do you have some listener mail to take us out

500
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: of this domestic horror?

501
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: I do have some listener mail. Before listener mail, we

502
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: can mention once again that we are taking a trip

503
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: to Morocco this November. I don't think we have mentioned

504
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: that on the show in a bit. The last time

505
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: I checked, we were sold out of individual single rooms

506
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: and Defined Destinations was getting in touch with people just

507
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: to see if there was anybody who might be okay

508
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: sharing a room with somebody. There are still spots available

509
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: for people traveling together as a pair, whether that's friends

510
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: or a couple or whatever. So the best way to

511
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: get to that is to go to Defined Destinations dot

512
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: com and click on tours and it's the one called

513
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: a Taste of Morocco. And yes, now I do have

514
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: listener mail. This listener mail is from Gary, who wrote

515
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: after our Triple Nichols episode. Gary wrote, Dear Tracy and Holly,

516
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: I know I've been writing a lot lately, but I've

517
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: been listening to your podcast a lot lately, and I

518
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: have thoughts. As a white male boomer and a lifelong

519
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: resident of Oregon, I didn't expect the Triple Nichols episode

520
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: to hit so close to home, but it did in

521
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: several ways. First, my ears perked up at the mention

522
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: of Fort Benning. My mom's first husband attended officer Training

523
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: school at Fort Benning when my mom was about twenty

524
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: one years old. She took a train across the country

525
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: to join him there. In later years, she told me

526
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: that that train ride through the South and her time

527
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: in Georgia were very upsetting to her because of the

528
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: widespread poverty and the treatment of black people. Her husband

529
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: was killed in a non combat vehicle crash somewhere in

530
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: Europe shortly after V Day. When I was going through

531
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: her things after she passed away in two thousand, I

532
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 2: found materials from his time at Fort Benning, including a

533
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: booklet listing all of his fellow graduates, among whom was

534
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: a William Gates Senior, the father of Microsoft's Bill Gates.

535
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: Just a fun fact. Then you got to the part

536
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: about the Mitchell Party tragedy in Bly and the connection

537
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: to the creation of smoke jumpers, including the Triple Nichols

538
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: participation in them. My dad's family has lived in that

539
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: area since the late nineteenth century, and I too, lived

540
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 2: in nearby Lakeview for several years and have visited the monument.

541
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: One of my older brother's best friends earned money for

542
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: college as a smoke jumper based out of Cave Junction

543
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: near where we grew up in Grant's Pass. But I

544
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: really wasn't aware of the five point fifty five or

545
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: their connection to the balloon bomb case or the smoke jumpers.

546
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: And I'm always really happy when I learned new historical facts,

547
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 2: especially about things and events that have touched my life.

548
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: So thanks again for a really interesting episode. I'm attaching

549
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: another photo of Judo, the Red Standard poodle, this time

550
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: on a little hike with us. She's posing on a

551
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: trail surrounded by blooming larkspur. She just turned ten years

552
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: old earlier this month, but she's still a very active

553
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: girl and loves walking in the forest with us. She

554
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: recently pulled a muscle chasing a deer or squirrel, so

555
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: we're having to keep her quiet, which is quite a

556
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: challenge while at heels. Thanks again for your good work, Gary.

557
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 2: I like how the options of chasing include a deer

558
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: and a squirrel, two dissimilar animals. Oh my goodness, dissimilar

559
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: but in similar places, similar places, similar fleeing from dogs,

560
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: I would imagine. Yeah, what a cute poodle. She's precious,

561
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: very cute, with a brown just brown like brown fur,

562
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: and a very This face looks very pensive to me.

563
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: It is sort of like she's thinking, is it okay

564
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 2: for me to go on ahead of you? Do you

565
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: want me to wait? Can I go?

566
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure?

567
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this email. Gary, you probably

568
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: have heard the balloons the Japanese are the Balloons of

569
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 2: World War two episode that we talked more about the

570
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 2: tragedy and fly and the Japanese balloon bombs. We've gotten

571
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: a couple of emails that kind of referenced to having

572
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: never heard of that before. So in case folks have

573
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: missed it, there is an episode in our previous episodes

574
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 2: called the Balloons of World War Two that talks more

575
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: about that. So, thank you so much, Gary. If you

576
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: would like to send us a note about this or

577
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 2: any other podcast or a history podcast at iHeartRadio dot com,

578
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: and you can subscribe to our show on the iHeartRadio

579
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 2: app and anywhere else you'd like to get your podcasts.

580
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 2: Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio.

581
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

582
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,