1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, A podcast is entirely 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: funded and supported by the film Alien Resurrection, which no 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: one on this call but me has seen. I have 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: picked a bit that no one can play off of 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: because they simply don't remember the classic Ron Pearlman film 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: Alien Resurrection. What a tragedy. Speaking of works of artes, no, 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 2: I was gonna say works of arts. No, No ashactment 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 2: contributing editor for Rolling Stone and Wired, How are you 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: doing today? 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 3: I'm doing sad better than a astronaut with an alien 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 3: implanted into my gut? Question? Yeah, does that's that's? Does that? 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 3: Does that take place in that movie? 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: I guess they if you consider anyone who's in space 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: an astrona yes, yes, I okay, then yes, yes, that's 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: essentially what's going on in that movie. There's a lot 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: of cloning involved, though, which you know, fingers crossed. Would 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: you clone yourself if you could? You know? Absolutely you would? 19 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 4: Okay, absolutely, because then I could have somebody else do 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 4: my job twice, even though I know that's not on how 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 4: that works? 22 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: Wow, yeah we could. 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: If you've writ any Spider Man comics, it never goes well. 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 2: No, m M and I do think that Spider Man 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: comics really really are the that that's where I go 26 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: to for maya all of my cloning related information, specifically 27 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: Spider Man. 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 3: I should work for a guy that had cloned dogs. Really. 29 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's so weird to me. 30 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: I would never clone my dog. I love my dog, 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: but it wouldn't be her. I know it wouldn't be her. 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: I'd be like, who's this impostor not Anderson? 33 00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. 34 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: Folks yourself, but not your dog. 35 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 36 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 4: For efficiency purposes, you just want somebody that could sit 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 4: in the meetings I don't want to go to or 38 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 4: sit in do like all the work things that don't 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 4: appeal to me, and then I could just do the 40 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 4: things I want to do. 41 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 3: So the clone would have to grow up to be 42 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 3: exactly your age and then slow down. 43 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you would have to like accelerate its growth 44 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 2: really rob it of a childhood or you're or you're 45 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: doing a clone like in that? Well yeah, so are you? 46 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: You do not think clones are people, Sophie, because that's 47 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: a very problematic attitude to have. Year I'm like, it's 48 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: not real. 49 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, again, the Spider Man books would would tell 50 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 3: you this is this way lies madness. 51 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: Well, it's absolute madness. 52 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: There's no if we get cloning at the same period 53 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: of time, we get like Peterteel's ideal, like breakdown of 54 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 2: federal power so that like there's all these isolated city 55 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 2: states run at the whims of rich people. There's no 56 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: way we will not get someone like acting as a 57 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: wellness influencer who starts an island where you can go 58 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 2: hunt and murder a clone of yourself in order to 59 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: gain like unspecified mental health benefits. That's absolutely going Like 60 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 2: Joe Rogan is going to kill his clone in order 61 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: to gain its power by eating its heart. That's a 62 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: version of the future that could be us in ten years. People. 63 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: I feel like that's just called Austin, Texas. 64 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be in Austin, Texas. I would say 65 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: that's not a bad place to set. 66 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 3: It, Like I feel like that's happening right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 67 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: I mean I killed a guy in Austin, Texas once 68 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: who looked a lot like me, but that was less 69 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: out of a desire to gain better mental health. And anyway, Noah, 70 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: you ever killed me, buddy. 71 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 3: Not that I can talk about. On this podcast. 72 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: Well that's the answer Peter Teal would give. I'm sure, 73 00:03:53,560 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: and we are getting back to Peter's story. Up to 74 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: this point. The Teal story is the tale of an isolated, 75 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: super disciplined kid who didn't connect with his classmates, or 76 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: at least that's one version of it, right. I will say, 77 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's right, because this vision of 78 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: this kid who just like doesn't understand or get along 79 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: with other people and it's like separate from them, is 80 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,119 Speaker 2: at odds of a kid who hangs out with Judge 81 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: Kennedy's son because he wants to clerk for Justice Kennedy, 82 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: who socializes with the Federalist Society people, and who starts 83 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: and operates a student newspaper with several friends. Right, that 84 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: version of Teal reads less like lonely victim of bullying 85 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 2: and more maybe kind of a rich kid asshole who 86 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: doesn't like to be associated with regular people. Right, It's 87 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 2: not so much that he's lonely and separate, it's that 88 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: he has separated himself because he wants to be better 89 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: than them. Right, I don't know which of these. Yeah, 90 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: you can really make a case for either. If we're 91 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 2: going for that latter interpretation of Teal. It makes sense, then, 92 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: to draw a line from his the old ambitions as 93 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: a lawyer and his anger at the higher education system 94 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: that had evidently prepared him poorly to succeed in his 95 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: first ambition. Stanford had not made Peter into the kind 96 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 2: of person who could clerk for the Supreme Court, and 97 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: since that could not be representative of a fault of Peter's, 98 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: maybe he just literally wasn't good enough. It has to 99 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: have been the fault of higher education as a system, 100 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: and Peter has made his anger at this everyone else's 101 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: problem for the last forty years now. The other open 102 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: question here is how did being gay influence Peter's development 103 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: and the nation state sized chip on his shoulder. In 104 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, a writer for The New Yorker asked Peter 105 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: more or less that same question, how did his homosexuality 106 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 2: and status as an outsider influence the way he thinks 107 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: about politics and business today? Here's his response. I can 108 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: come up with stories about how they're factors, but I'm 109 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: not sure that they're interesting. The gay thing is that 110 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: you're sort of an outsider. There are things about it 111 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: that are problematic. There are things about it that can 112 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: be positive, but it also contrived. Maybe I'm more of 113 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: an outsider because I was a gifted and introverted child. 114 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 2: Maybe it's some complicated combination of all these things. And 115 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: maybe I'm not even an outsider. And I think that's 116 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 2: interesting where he's like, maybe I'm just kind of full 117 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: of shit with you people, and like I've always I've 118 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: never been an outsider. I just think I'm better than you, right, 119 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: And a lot of this is a crafted image of 120 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: like this is a more sympathetic vision of me, right, 121 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 2: Like he definitely has it takes some joy in playing 122 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 2: the mastermind manipulating the media and yeah. 123 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean clearly not. And yeah, or maybe 124 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: it's like maybe it's a bit to appeal to actual outsiders. 125 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, maybe it's a bit to appeal to, yeah, 126 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: the real ones. One thing you can say about Peter 127 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: is that very shortly after starting his career in law, 128 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: he decided I don't want to be a lawyer. In total, 129 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 2: his career consistent of he clerks for a judge in 130 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: Atlanta for a little while, and then he becomes a 131 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 2: first year associate at a corporate law firm, and he 132 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: never makes it to year two, so he just kind 133 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: of hates the thing that he had studied to do 134 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 2: in school. It seems like he hates it largely because 135 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: he's not going to get a shortcut to being at 136 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: the top of that. If he's going to get anywhere, 137 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: he's gonna have to work himself up from maybe not 138 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: the bottom, but like the middle. And Peter just doesn't 139 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: have any interest in doing that. That's a regular life, 140 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: that's an ordinary people kind of thing to do, is 141 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: like starting it kind of the bottom rung of your 142 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: career and working your way up. He doesn't want to 143 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: have to do that, so he leaves this profession to 144 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: start trading derivatives. Right, what's the thing you do if, like, 145 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: you know, you want to feel like you're better than 146 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: everyone else, Try to get into finance and get mega rich. Right, 147 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: That's his next move is like, well, law isn't going 148 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: to be the thing I wanted, so I'm going to 149 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: try to get wealthy and the financ this is not 150 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: going to work out immediately well to him, right, And 151 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: the fact that finances, you know, the thing that he's doing, 152 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: but it's not his first career choice, seems to rub 153 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: him the wrong way, and this is when we first 154 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: get outside evidence that he's built a grudge against higher education. 155 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: In the late nineteen nineties, he gets together with a 156 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: friend from his Harvard Review days, David Sachs, and co 157 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: authors a book called The Diversity Myth, which was published 158 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety five by the Independent Institute, a right 159 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: wing think tank that made Peter a fellow. During this 160 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: awkward period in his career, he was hard up for cash. 161 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: His investment business isn't going well. He's not making money 162 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: as a lawyer. The think tank gives him income. It 163 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: helps him in David Sacks secure a series of op 164 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: eds in The Wall Street Journal mocking things like Indigenous 165 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: People's Day and a broad side against multiculturalism that was 166 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: anti Western. Their book, which was endorsed by Denesh Desuza, 167 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 2: had been funded in part by a forty thousand dollars 168 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: grant by the John m Olin Foundation, a conservative nonprofit 169 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: geared towards creating a counter intelligensia that had also bank 170 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: rolled some of Dessuz's Earth career. Peter got to do 171 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: a book tour and a series of speaking engagements, and 172 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: he found that he enjoyed aspects of life as a 173 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: right wing intellectual. And this is really interesting to me 174 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 2: because Peter doesn't start as a founder and gets successful 175 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: in business and then pivot to right wing politics. He 176 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: is scouted by right wing like moneyed interests, by these 177 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: guys working at think tanks and nonprofits funded by like 178 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: oil and gas billionaires and the like. He is scouted 179 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: as this is a smart kid who is frustrated because 180 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: the first thing he wanted to do didn't work out 181 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 2: for him. We could get him into right wing politics. 182 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: Right he is a conservative pundit before he starts funding 183 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: conservative causes. And this is a part is. 184 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: The opposite of what I thought the origin story was. 185 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 2: Well, it's so interesting because this is how for decades, 186 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 2: if we want to ask the question, how did right 187 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: wing politics get so deranged? How do the Republican Party 188 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 2: get so deranged? Well, it's because of this decade's long, 189 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: very dedicated, methodical effort to every time we can find 190 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 2: an angry young man with a degree of like skill 191 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: and talent who has failed out of their first ambition, 192 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: let's put a pile of cash in the front of 193 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: their face and say, like, hey, do you want to 194 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: get into conservative media? Right that's where all the Daily 195 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 2: Wire guys come from, their failed Hollywood screenwriters and standard comedians, right, 196 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: that's where Teal gets into this from he is a 197 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: failed lawyer. Yeah who and they're like, hey, come be 198 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: our Danchet Suza, right, like, come be another Daneshta Susa. 199 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: That's his Like yeah yeah. And in fact, Peter, while 200 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: he's kind of like having this flirtation with being a 201 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: right wing intellectual, he tries to start a Bay Area 202 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: public access talk show with a liberal friend of his, 203 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: which biographer Chafkin describes as Crossfire, but way way more pretentious. 204 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: And I can't imagin that, Like, can you get what 205 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 2: is a more pretentious crossfire that even exists with. 206 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: Like mid nineties production value? God? 207 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like a fucking uhf crossfire? Incredible shit. I 208 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: desperately wish they'd gotten out like eight episodes and those 209 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: were on YouTube for me to just watch. I want 210 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: to see Peter Teal's take on Crossfire. 211 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: No you think you want to see? 212 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: No, I for sure don't. 213 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, you would definitely gouch out at least one, if 214 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 3: not both eyes. 215 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 5: Yeah, but. 216 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: That's true, but not too not to no one does 217 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: so Teal in Sachs's book becomes a foundational work in 218 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: the complaining liberals on campus are intolerant genre. Right, these 219 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: are that's a big part of conservative media today, intolerant 220 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: liberals ruining college I mean, mean to conservatives, and Sacks 221 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: are doing this in the nineties. Right. It is also 222 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 2: an early work of DEI panic. 223 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: Right. 224 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: This is really where Chafkin gets a lot of credit 225 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: for me, because most of the articles that I read 226 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: which talked about this period in Peter's life mentioned that 227 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: he'd co written The Diversity Myth, but they just described 228 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: it as a book Peter and David Sachs wrote because 229 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: they were so frustrated. Right, This genuinely came out of 230 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: a place of we were so angry about what we 231 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: saw at Stanford that we just had to write this 232 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: book about, Like, this is real problem we saw coming 233 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: up from higher education, all these fucked up things on 234 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: campus that we just couldn't ignore anymore. And that's not true. 235 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 2: The reality is that the Diversity Myth and the ideological 236 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: careers of David and Peter were crafted, molded, and funded 237 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: by powerful moneyed interests looking for fighters to help them 238 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: tear down the liberal status quo. And chief among the 239 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: bugbears of these moneyed interests was people who thought that 240 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: other cultures should get to exist in American intellectual life. Right, 241 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: That's what made these rich guys angry, and they hired 242 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 2: people like Peter in Teal to yell about it. Now 243 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: the books, yeah, yeah, fascinating shit. The book's Amazon description 244 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: informs us the authors convincingly show that multiculturalism is not 245 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: about learning more, it's actually about learning less. Now, if 246 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: you read there's a fun article, because this has become 247 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 2: like the modern you know, this is also like most 248 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: of conservative politics today. Teal got to write an article 249 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: about this book he wrote as a young man for 250 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: a website called The New Criterion in twenty twenty three, 251 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: which is, you know, coming out just as this panic 252 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: that he and David had really tried to start much 253 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 2: earlier over multiculturalism on campus became integral to conservative politics. 254 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: So Peter goes in and basically does like a victory 255 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: lap I was right all along, And he lists his 256 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: examples of progressive mania that he saw in Stanford as 257 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: the replacement of Shakespeare's The Tempest and One Class with 258 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 2: a play that had been written by a modern author 259 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: based on the tempest. The inclusion of other works beyond 260 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: the Western classic literature canon was, in Tel's eyes, a tendentious, 261 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: left wing anti Western crusade, as opposed to just like, 262 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: I don't know, man, maybe maybe it's good at a 263 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: certain point to add in works that are influenced by 264 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: and based on some of these like classics, instead of 265 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: just having everyone read these classics, you know, ad nauseum. 266 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 2: There's an intellectual value in discussing the works that they inspired. 267 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: That's kind of accepting that art and creativity is a 268 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: living sort of thing, as opposed to just being like, no, 269 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: everyone just needs to memorize the Iliad. Well, maybe we 270 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: could talk about some of the works that were influenced 271 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: by it and you know, that have descended as a 272 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: result of it, because that's just kind of how education 273 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: ought to work. At one point, listing examples of how 274 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: progressive madness had warped educations at Stanford, Teal complained that 275 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: the campus refused to seal off glory holes during the 276 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: height of the AIDS epidemic. Now, I don't know if 277 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: this is true. I have not found any outside evidence 278 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: that this is a thing that happened in that twenty 279 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: twenty three article. Tiel does make a couple of valid points. 280 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: He complains about the insane increase in tuition costs and 281 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: how that's a part of the housing crisis. And he's 282 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: not wrong there, right, Like the fact that so many 283 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: people are in educational debt is part of why it's 284 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: hard for them to afford housing and to like buy 285 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: houses of their own. But what he's what he's doing 286 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 2: here that's fucked up is he's rapping decisions made by 287 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: people who aren't teachers. 288 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 3: Right. 289 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: Teachers are not choosing to make college this expensive, and 290 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: they are not the primary financial benefactors of college being 291 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: that expensive, right, It is the administrators of the school. 292 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: It's not like your history professor isn't deciding what, like 293 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: the campus is going to charge people for credit hours, 294 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: you know. 295 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, the glory whole thing is just is also just. 296 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: Like I feel like it's just bullshit. I feel like 297 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: it's just bullshit. Yeah, I feel like there were probably 298 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: a couple of glory holes on campus maybe, but like 299 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: I don't feel like the student the school was like, no, 300 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: we love our glory holes. We're keeping those in. 301 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 3: It's bananas. And then also, I mean it is a 302 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 3: little bit bananas that this guy was like confronted for 303 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: being kind of like pro apartheid South Africa by black classmates. Yeah, 304 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: and then his solution is what that it was bad 305 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 3: to have any diversity on college. 306 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: It's bad to have any diversity in like the course material. 307 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: If you're doing a Western class, you should only be 308 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: reading old, dead white men as opposed to like, well 309 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: number one, Western civilization includes a lot of people who 310 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: are not white and exists up to the present day. 311 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: So it's actually very valid to say, like, Okay, Shakespeare 312 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: is obviously part of the Western canon. Can should we 313 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: not also be looking at like some non white authors 314 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: who are in the Western canon who are right and 315 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: pivoting off of works started by Shakespeare and influenced by him? 316 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: Right? 317 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 2: Is that not a valid part of art education? Which 318 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: I would say, well, yeah, that just seems like what 319 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: you do? 320 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 3: You know, I just do not believe that this guy 321 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: is actually this angry about it. 322 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 6: No. 323 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 2: Well, and that's part of why I really appreciate what 324 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 2: Chafkin does here, because like, once you read like, oh 325 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 2: and all of this was funded by some like shady 326 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: right wing think tank that gave them forty grand to 327 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: write a book to like because the funders hate colleges 328 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: and liberal professors. Oh okay, so this is made up, right, 329 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: Like you were paid to be angry about this. That 330 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 2: plays a role in why Peter is doing all of this, 331 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 2: for sure, last the late nineteen nineties demanded more of 332 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: Peter than a full time devotion to the culture war trenches. 333 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: After quitting his law career, he'd been forced to live 334 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: with mom and dad for a while, which I think 335 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 2: was a miserable experience for him, and then he'd finally 336 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 2: managed to get himself set up in a shitty little 337 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: apartment thanks to all of those think tank paychecks. Peter 338 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 2: was not happy with this life. He was not about 339 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: to live as a poor man or even just a 340 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: moderately comfortable conservative intellectual. He wanted to be one of 341 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: the rich founders, plucking a young, angry man like he'd 342 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: been from obscurity and funding them in their quest to 343 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: write bullshit. And in order to become that kind of guy, 344 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 2: the only way to make the money he needed was finance. 345 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: So he decides he's going to launch a hedge fund 346 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: from his friend with a friend from his magazine days 347 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 2: at Stanford using money that he had begged from friends, 348 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: family and friends of family. Now, he'd been trying to 349 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: trade derivatives up to this point, and that had not 350 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: made him a bunch of money. The fact that he's 351 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: able to get enough money from friends and family to 352 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: start a hedge fund is evidence again, this is not 353 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 2: a poor kid. This is not even a middle class kid, right, 354 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: No matter what a lot of provoles came from a 355 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 2: middle class family. I'm sorry if your family has enough 356 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: money for you to start a mutual fund with their 357 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 2: donations or hedge funds, sorry, like that's you know, you're 358 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: not necessarily like millionaires, but your family and friends are 359 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: of a different certainly, Like if I had wanted to 360 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: start a hedge fund at this age, my family and 361 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: friends would not have been able to pay into it 362 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: right like they were struggling to pay rent. Peter was 363 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: not initially good at running a hedge fund. In his 364 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: first year operating, the Nasdaq went up by forty percent, 365 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: and Peter's fund lost money betting instead on currency. Part 366 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 2: of this is because this is something Chafkin points out, 367 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 2: Peter's kind of obsessed with George Soros, and George I 368 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 2: think kind of around the time Peter's getting into hedge funds, 369 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: makes a fortune shorting the British pound and like kind 370 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: of fucks up the currency of an entire nation with 371 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: his you know, his betting right, and Peter both hates 372 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 2: Soros because they're very different ideologically, and also wants to 373 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: be like him because he sees he wants that kind 374 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 2: of like Soros is this right wing bugbear, this monster 375 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: in their nightmares, and Peter wants to be that for 376 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: the left right. So he's betting on currency, but he's 377 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: just not any fucking good at it right. So it 378 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 2: gradually dawns on Peter that he probably isn't going to 379 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: earn a reputation as one of the great hedge fund founders. 380 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: And while he struggles with this, he watches the news, 381 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: which is endlessly celebrating this is the end of the nineties, now, 382 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: this parade of stories about guys like Marc Andreesen who 383 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 2: made early dot com fortunes. Peter's obsessing over this, and 384 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 2: he's supplementing his income with lectures at Stanford, so he's 385 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: writing about how evil the higher education system is and 386 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: also reliant upon it for some of his money. When 387 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight at Stanford, he is a run 388 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: in with someone who would be a crucial part of 389 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: the next and most profitable phase of his life. This 390 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: someone's name was Max Levchin, and Max was a twenty 391 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: three year old student at Peter's alma mater who showed 392 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,239 Speaker 2: up one day for a lecture on currency. The two 393 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: hit it off and wound up talking about Peter's hedge fund. 394 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: Max mentioned that he was considering an investment in a 395 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: company that made software for palm pilots. Now, no, you 396 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: know what a palm pilot was? Yes, I think we 397 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,959 Speaker 2: I have to step back and explain this for our 398 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 2: zoomer audience because they're not going to have any fucking 399 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: idea what I'm talking about. Imagine a smartphone that can't 400 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: call people, or text people or like map your way 401 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: to you know, it doesn't have a GPS. You also 402 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: you can't message in it. You can't like use the 403 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 2: Internet at all really on it in most functional ways, 404 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: and there's not any games on it. It also doesn't 405 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: have a camera. Basically, it's a small computer that keeps 406 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: track of your calendar and if you can find out 407 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: how to download a book in nineteen ninety eight, it 408 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: can kind of be a shitty e reader, right, those 409 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: are the things that palm pilots are doing at this 410 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: point in time. 411 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 3: Those are also one of those things like you had 412 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 3: to use one of the like it's got to stainless. 413 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, they're fucking they're awful. It really is like 414 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 2: Steve Jobs hated the palm pilot because he very rightly 415 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 2: was like, this is never going to take off as 416 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: a product because it sucks. It's a piece of shit. 417 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: The only people who like these are like people with 418 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: disposable income who like want to impress folks by having 419 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: an electronic gadget that most people don't have. Right, they're 420 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 2: just now that there's not uses for all palm pilot, 421 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: But it's not an indispensable device in the same way 422 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: that a smartphone will become, right, Like, you really can't 423 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: exist in a lot of the modern economy if you 424 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: don't have a fucking smartphone. Palm pilots are never that. 425 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 3: But indispensable. However, in masturbation. 426 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: Jokes, yes, yes, also also that right, that was Oh god, yeah, 427 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 2: what a time that was. They really laid that one 428 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: up for us perfectly. Yep, So Palm pilots are a 429 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 2: dead end tech wise, but they also are They're not 430 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 2: a failed product entire They do make money for a while, 431 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: and there's there's a lot in Palm Pilot development that 432 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 2: is going to feed in later to smartphones and the 433 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: smartphone app ecosystem, right, and that's going to be relevant because, 434 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 2: like Max and Peter, they start talking about, like we 435 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 2: want to create like an app for Palm pilot users, 436 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: and specifically initially what PayPal is is Max and Penier 437 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 2: being like, what if PalmPilot users can send each other 438 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: io use, right, Like what if there was a way 439 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: to do that? And Peter's his interest kind of evolves 440 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 2: into what if we use Because they're looking at the 441 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: internet and palm pilots have some ability to connect. It's 442 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 2: a nightmarish pain in the ass compared to just like 443 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: the way your smartphone works, they do have a way 444 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 2: of connecting. Peter is start is starting to look at 445 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 2: this digital infrastructure that's being built up in this period, 446 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 2: and he gets this. He gets this fascination with the 447 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 2: idea of what if we create a digital bank that 448 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 2: can separate money from the state, Right, So he sees 449 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 2: PayPal not as just a business, but as an act 450 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: of revolutionary praxie. If we're looking at like Peter as 451 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: like a capitalist Lenin, this is his equivalent of like 452 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: the banks that Lenin had Stalin rob in order to 453 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: fund the revolution. Right, PayPal will allow us to take 454 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: money from the state and build up our own war 455 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: chest in order to destroy this liberal nanny state and 456 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: create our libertarian paradise. It's a weapon, right, Peter sees 457 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: PayPal as a weapon time. Yeah, that is what he claims. 458 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 2: I can't tell you what he believed at the time. 459 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 2: All the reporting on him, and this is what people 460 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: who knew him said, is that like, yeah, he saw 461 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 2: this as like this is a way to separate money 462 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: from the state. So I think it is probably credible 463 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 2: that he sees this as an act of kind of 464 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: revolutionary praxie. 465 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 3: Wild. Yeah. 466 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: In a two thousand and seven article for Fortune Magazine, 467 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 2: Jeffrey O'Brien wrote, Teel figured a web based currency would 468 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: undermine government tax structures. Getting there, however, would mean taking 469 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 2: on established industries commercial banking, for instance, which would require 470 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: financial acumen and engineering expertise. That's one of the earlier 471 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: Like this is a revolutionary thing for him, Right, I 472 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: want to undermine the government by building this web based currency. 473 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: And obviously that's not what PayPal becomes. PayPal is just 474 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: a way to like send your friends money. You know, 475 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: it is not separated cat. But also Peter is not 476 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: involved in PayPal after he sells it, as we'll talk about. 477 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 3: Right. 478 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: So one benefit of founding a company like PayPal was 479 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 2: that Peter and his partner could bring into work for 480 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: them anyone they wanted and exclude anyone who annoyed them. 481 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 2: And as soon as the company gets off the ground, 482 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 2: it becomes clear that, like this is non negotiable for Peter, right, 483 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 2: Like A big reason why he likes the idea of 484 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: being a founder is he can kind of make his 485 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: own clubhouse and say no girls allowed. 486 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: Right. 487 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: And that's more literal than you might think. I'm gonna 488 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: read something that Levchin told Forbes in that two thousand 489 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 2: and seven interview. This guy came in and I asked 490 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: what he liked to do for fun. He said, I 491 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: really enjoy playing hoops. I said, we can't hire the guy. 492 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,719 Speaker 2: Everyone I knew in college you like to play hoops, 493 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 2: was an idiot. Wow, no basketball guys, Sophie would not 494 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: have done well at PayPal. Nope, I know that hurts, Sophie. 495 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: I know that you really had a lot writing on 496 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: a PayPal career in two thousand and seven, So I'm 497 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: sorry it would have been you know what else has 498 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: a lot writing on a PayPal career and I don't 499 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 2: think it's going to work out for them. Is our sources, 500 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 2: our sponsors, sponsors, Jesus Christ, My head's not on straight today, Sophie. 501 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 2: You can tell that. 502 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not much different than any other day. 503 00:26:49,680 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: But yep, well, hey, no, I'm normally breaking dads and 504 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: we're back. Okay, let's so, let's let's get back into 505 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 2: the Peter Teel story. So the early PayPal company culture 506 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: is obsessed with work, but it also carries a little 507 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 2: of Peter's growing antipathy towards college educations. One early employee 508 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: claimed that the big difference between Google and PayPal was quote, 509 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 2: Google wanted to hire PhDs. PayPal wanted to hire people 510 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: who got into PhD programs and dropped out. 511 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: That is so interesting. Uh huh, that is so interesting. 512 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's this. And again, Peter's not a dropout, 513 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: right like he not like, like, for example, jobs, right. 514 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: He's not somebody who decides college isn't for me and 515 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: bounces to do his own thing. He gets a degree 516 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 2: and fails. So it's interesting that he's like, I am 517 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: only going to hire people who were, like I guess, 518 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: slightly more on the ball than me about realizing college 519 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 2: wasn't where they wanted to be. I guess PhD programs. 520 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 2: You have spent a lot of time in college at 521 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: that point. I don't know. You can you can interpret 522 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: that how you want. Levchin describes early PayPal employees as 523 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 2: geeky guys who quote didn't get laid very often. The 524 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 2: least surprising thing I've ever heard about payment. If you're 525 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 2: wondering what companies employees were fucking like crazy, PayPal's not 526 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: going to be your first bet. Obviously it's Yahoo. I 527 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 2: was gonna say Licos, but nobody's gonna remember Licos either. 528 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: So here's another quote from that Forbes article. In the 529 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: early days, when it came time to hire a high 530 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: ranking female engineer, she turned out to be bad at 531 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: ping pong. Levchin took that as a lack of competitive flare, 532 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 2: but grudgingly hired her anyway. She quit within six months. 533 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: Peter na never fails to rub that in. He grumbles, Oh, man, Peter, 534 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: like she can't play ping pong, There's no way she'll 535 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: fit in here. I think you guys were just committed 536 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: to making sure she wouldn't fit in there. 537 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 3: Now. 538 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: One thing I find interesting is that for all of 539 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 2: Peter's obsession with hierarchy, particularly as the rest of the 540 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: world is concerned, he doesn't appear to have actually been 541 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: that kind of manager. In other words, he is not 542 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: a like super dick, am I have to be in 543 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: charge only my way or the highway kind of guy. 544 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: He actually a lot of people say it was kind 545 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 2: of a very good manager in this period of time. 546 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to read another quote from Forbes here. His 547 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: hallmark management emo at PayPal was the all hands, open 548 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 2: book session, customer logs, revenue flow, fraud, losses, burn rate. 549 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: He display it all for every employee to see. This 550 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 2: access to information, coupled with the lack of offices, created 551 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: a flat structure where any idea could win the day. 552 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: And that's not a bad way. That's a very effective 553 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: way of running things. That's probably part of why PayPal 554 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: works out, and it's interesting to me that like as 555 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: obsessed ideologically as he is with hierarchy, Peter tends to 556 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: run things as more of like an open book, flat 557 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 2: organizational structure where we're all just kind of sitting together 558 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: and bullshitting and like arguing and whoever can make the 559 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: best point, that's the idea that takes off. That's interesting 560 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: to me. 561 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 3: As long as you're good at ping pong. 562 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: As long as you as long as you fit into 563 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: his idea of the elites that he wants, right, And 564 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 2: maybe that is that I respect other people who I 565 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: see as being at my level, and so I can 566 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 2: work with them on a kind of approaching an even basis, 567 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: just I can't respect anyone else. 568 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, as long as long as you speak Orkish. 569 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 2: Play, Yeah, Yes, as long as you can read the 570 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: runes on the Gates of Moria and hate basketball, you 571 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: can be in Peter's clubhouse. So you will note that 572 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: around the same time this is all happening, a guy 573 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: who's in the news occasionally. Some of you may have 574 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: heard of him. He's an obscure figure, but he comes 575 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 2: up now and again named Elon Musk started another company 576 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: named x dot com now not the not the social 577 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: networking site that we all refer to buy that name 578 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 2: at all times. Of course, No, this was actually a 579 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 2: different company and EARLIERX dot com. And the gist of 580 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: the story, I'm actually not going to talk a lot 581 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: about Musk and Teal at PayPal because in terms of 582 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: like popular culture knowledge of these guys, half of it 583 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 2: is the big fight that they had at PayPal. Right, 584 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: Musk and Teal had both started payment companies that were 585 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: doing very similar things, and the market was not big 586 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: enough to support them both as independent companies, so they 587 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: had to merge in order to be valid as a business. Right, 588 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: And the two don't get along and wind up like 589 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,479 Speaker 2: finding But like that's that's the thing that gets reported 590 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: all the time. I just don't think it's that interesting. 591 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: It's also as behind the bastards goes the fact that 592 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: Peter Teal is a dick to Elon Musk, not really 593 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: evil to dislike Elon Musk. Yeah, I feel like we 594 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 2: can understand why Peter might not have gotten along with 595 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: Elon Musk. But the the basically what's happening here is 596 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: that both of these companies X and PayPal are funded 597 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: by a lot of VC money and they're kind of 598 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: lighting it on fire. At this point the company, neither 599 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: company is in the black, and the belief is that like, 600 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: the only way they'll get there is if they merge, 601 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: and this does work. This is an effective They get 602 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: kind of pressured into it, but this is an effective 603 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: like way to build a business. Now, Elon becomes the 604 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 2: CEO for a period of time, but he and Peter 605 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: do not get along, and Peter orchestrates a coup against 606 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: Musk while Elon is on vacation. I'd relate that in 607 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: more detail, but again, who can blame him? 608 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 3: Now? 609 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: The specific conflict seems to have arisen because Elon has 610 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 2: this obsession with moving the company off of Unix and 611 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 2: towards a Microsoft platform, whereas Teal and his ogs are 612 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: all very much like in the Unix tank, right and 613 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: so like that's kind of the root of a lot 614 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: of the conflicts between them. But the larger issue is 615 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 2: that there's just a personality clash. They don't like each other. 616 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 2: And one of the things that's really funny here is 617 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: that is as much as both of these guys suck, 618 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: and they're both current like right wing influential, right wing 619 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 2: like monsters, they both had each other's number twenty years ago, 620 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: like their criticisms of each other are perfectly valid. Chafkin 621 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: quotes a colleague who talked to each man about the 622 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 2: other during this period, and this colleague said, Musk thinks 623 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 2: Peter is a sociopath, and Peter thinks Musk is a 624 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 2: fraud and a braggart. Hey, guys, you're both right. You 625 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: did it. 626 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 3: Incredible. 627 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not bad, all right. 628 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 3: I can't wait for the next Trump administration when they're yeah, 629 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 3: that's gonna be to dismantle the state. 630 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of an either no matter 631 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 2: who wins, we lose or or maybe the mister burns 632 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: so many diseases that it kind of keeps the structure 633 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: propped up up. 634 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 3: I guess yeah. 635 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: That's that's your call. Yeah, okay, okay, I again, I 636 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 2: think it's Alien four, but nobody's going to understand my 637 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: references to Alien four. So what I do think that 638 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: you can probably understand all politics via one of the 639 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 2: Alien movies, as long as it's not the David Fincher one. 640 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 2: You know, let's just keep Alien three shovel that aside, 641 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 2: you know, Alien Resurrection, Alien Aliens, all good politics. So yeah, 642 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 2: I think it's funny that these guys very clearly get 643 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 2: who each other is in such a strong way, and 644 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: they kind of they seem to have had a little 645 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: bit of a rapprochma, in part because Peter is later 646 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 2: going to save SpaceX with an investment kind of. But uh, 647 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: once Peter ousts Musk, the two are at arms. Lincoln, 648 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: they hate each other for years, right, They are very 649 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 2: clearly enemies for a while. After this, Peter takes over 650 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 2: Muscus CEO, and in this role he has a couple 651 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: of strengths. He's noted by his employees as being a 652 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: very supportive manager. He's the kind of guy who will 653 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 2: give you a ton of freedom in the world to 654 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 2: explore and try stuff out. Now, the downside of this 655 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: is Peter actually doesn't like confrontation. He's terrible at firing 656 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 2: people if he brings someone in, in part because I 657 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 2: think he mostly hires people he likes. If they're bad 658 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: or they fuck up, he'll shuffle them around. But he 659 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 2: doesn't tend to just let people go. He's really bad 660 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 2: at that actually, which is interesting to me. Now, one 661 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 2: of the big successes PayPal has in this period. As 662 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: a result of Peter's management style is that they develop 663 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 2: innovative technology aimed at fighting online fraud. From a fairly 664 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: early point in the business, around the year two thousand, 665 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 2: PayPal had started dealing with Russian scammers creating shell accounts 666 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: with stolen credit card numbers using bots. It actually goes 667 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 2: back quite a while. This is again happening before nine 668 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 2: to eleven. Teal didn't want to crack down on this 669 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: in a way that would make the service harder to use, 670 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 2: because it being easy to use was part of the appeal, right, 671 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 2: So instead, what they needed to do is actually figure 672 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 2: out where these networks were and shut down the network surgically. 673 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 2: So he has Levchin design a program that forced users 674 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 2: to copy letters displayed over a background that made them 675 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: impossible for machines to read. This becomes the capture system, right. 676 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: We all know that that is comes out of PayPal. 677 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: Levchin is the guy who codes it, but Teal is 678 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 2: a big part of like why we get capture now, 679 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 2: that's obviously very influential. We've all had to do god 680 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: knows an infinite number of these fucking things. But that 681 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 2: innovation alone only puts a dentt in the online like 682 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 2: fraud problem. So near the end of two thousand, a 683 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: PayPal employee named John Kolthanak, who's a former military intelligence man, 684 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 2: started building what we today call the crazy board. Right 685 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 2: where he's he's trying to like do the little like 686 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,720 Speaker 2: string like time bits of string to pictures of different 687 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 2: like fraud networks, try to map out these accounts of 688 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 2: fraudsters who are attacking PayPal. And he does this. It's 689 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 2: all kind of in a very like isolator, in a 690 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 2: very like labor intensive way, like building this like map 691 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: is a real pain in the ass, but he does 692 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: eventually isolate the main culprit of the botnet, you know, 693 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 2: defrauding them, a guy nicknamed Egor who had taken twenty 694 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: million dollars or so out of PayPal. Now, when this 695 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: worked out, this is a very effective method of getting 696 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: this guy, they decide, like, we need a way to 697 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 2: automate this process. Right, it's too slow to build a 698 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 2: crazy board the way call Thinek had, So let's have 699 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 2: Levchin code, a system by which you can map out 700 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 2: links between different groups of bad actors, so you can 701 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 2: build an actual physical understanding of these networks in real time. Right, 702 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 2: this app to build this kind of a crazy board 703 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 2: system is what becomes Palantier, right, yeah, yeah. Levchin calls 704 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,959 Speaker 2: the program Egor because of this guy that Kothanek had caught, 705 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 2: and he builds this program and it's for PayPal to 706 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 2: stop fraud. This is what becomes Palenter. This is the 707 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 2: core of Palenteer, right, it comes from Igor. 708 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 709 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, very interesting stuff. Yes, and we will be talking 710 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: a lot about Palatineer in Bart three. Teal's management style. 711 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: So again, if you're looking at this, this is both 712 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: like you should be hearing that music, like we can 713 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 2: see the evil coming up here, but also this is 714 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: evidence that like Peter's management style isn't bad. These are 715 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 2: effective outcomes that make a lot of money. 716 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 3: Right. 717 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 2: He is capable of motivating and managing people and giving 718 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 2: them the freedom they need to innovate. You know that 719 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 2: you have to acknowledge that about the guy totally. Yeah. 720 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 2: But that said, he also has a lot of blind spots, 721 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: and these are well described in this quote from that 722 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 2: Forbes article. In two thousand and seven, PayPal's losses were multiplying. 723 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: It battled Russian fraudsters who are filching millions by cribbing 724 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 2: credit card numbers. Customer service complaints flooded the phone lines 725 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 2: and inboxes, where often dealt with by simply not answering 726 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 2: the phone doing a mass deletion. Louisiana temporarily banned PayPal 727 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: from doing business in the state. MasterCard threatened to pull 728 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 2: the plug because of the high number of chargebacks. Peter 729 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: Teel didn't know what a chargeback was, said Jawed Karim, 730 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: an early engineer who went on to found YouTube with 731 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 2: fellow alumni Chad Hurley and Steve Chin and then sell 732 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 2: it to Google. That's one of the fundamental things of 733 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 2: any credit card payment system. Chargebacks almost killed the company. 734 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,959 Speaker 2: So there's also, in this very libertarian way, he doesn't 735 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 2: understand very basic aspects of reality that are central to 736 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: the thing he's trying to do, and it nearly kills them. Right, Like, 737 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 2: you don't know what a chargeback is and you are 738 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 2: running a payment processing company, Like that's a big, big 739 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 2: blind spot, right, I know what a chargeback is, and 740 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: I'm just a guy who was bad at having a 741 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 2: credit card. 742 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 3: You know. Right. But he's not very far removed from 743 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 3: just being like. 744 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 2: A punt right, right, And when you understand that is 745 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 2: his background, right, that he doesn't really have a life 746 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 2: outside of not making it as a lawyer and then 747 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 2: being a wagon pundit. I get while you've got some 748 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 2: blind spots, Peter. 749 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's really interesting about the Palin board, Like, yeah, 750 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 5: that that you know, I mean, I grew a giant company, 751 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 5: you know, almost by accident out of. 752 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 3: The zone one. 753 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And and that is like one of the 754 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 2: more interesting stories with with Teal, right, because it doesn't 755 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 2: come out of this. 756 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 3: The fact that. 757 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,399 Speaker 2: He's after nine to eleven able to see like, oh, 758 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 2: you know, this thing we've used to stop networks of scammers, 759 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 2: you can probably sell to the government to try to 760 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 2: stop terrorists right after this big attack. You know, that's 761 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 2: a that's that's some genuine insight. So PayPal, you know, 762 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 2: it struggles with profitability, but they eventually break even after 763 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 2: about one hundred and eighty million had been poured into 764 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: the idea. Now under Elon and Peter Teal, PayPal is 765 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 2: never profitable, right, they hit break even, and as soon 766 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 2: as they hit break even, they carry out an ip 767 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 2: Right immediately after their IPO, the company is sold to 768 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 2: eBay for one and a half billion dollars, and Peter 769 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 2: leaves instantly right the financially successful portion of PayPal's history, 770 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 2: he is not around for him. In fact, the first 771 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 2: thing he does after living is he basically he sets 772 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 2: up he's going to set up like a venture capital fund, 773 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 2: and he's going to short PayPal. Right, he sells this 774 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,479 Speaker 2: thing off and he's like, I'm immediately going to bet 775 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 2: against it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has absolutely not at all, 776 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 2: no loyalty or anything like that. Right, Like, he gets 777 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 2: his money and he gets out, I am done. I 778 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 2: have no more interest in this idea, right And I 779 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 2: think in part because it's become clear at this point 780 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 2: by two thousand and two, PayPal is not going to 781 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 2: destroy capital like destroy or so Kim. PayPal is not 782 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 2: going to destroy like liberal democratic governments. It's not going 783 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 2: to create its own currency system. It's just going to 784 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 2: be the way people use spend money on the internet. 785 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 2: And that's not interesting to him right now. Part of 786 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 2: why I think he gets into this like shorting, betting 787 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 2: against this thing he'd helped to build, is that two 788 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 2: thousand and two is also right after nine to eleven, 789 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 2: and Peter is one of many Americans who kind of 790 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 2: loses his mind over nine to eleven, Right, this is 791 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 2: a deranging moment for him, and it also like it 792 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 2: fucks up the fact that he has this need to 793 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 2: be seen as a contrarian, as separate, as above the herd, right. 794 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 2: And it's interesting to me that for all of that, 795 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 2: he is very much in line with like regular people 796 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,720 Speaker 2: like my parents. When it comes to just like losing 797 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 2: his mind over this terrorist attack, it terrifies him. He's 798 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 2: going to participate in a program by the Bush White 799 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 2: House to bring Silicon Valley movers and shakers in closer 800 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 2: contact with the Republican Party. This is the first he 801 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 2: had a lot of his friends from PayPal, people that 802 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 2: like had kind of seen him as like he's a libertarian, 803 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 2: He's a Silicon Valley libertarian, but like libertarians were very 804 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 2: anti Bush in this period. And the fact that Peter 805 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 2: is willing to get in out of the Republican Party, 806 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 2: a lot of people is like, oh, I don't really 807 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 2: know this guy like I thought I did. This does 808 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 2: not make sense where the person I thought Peter was. 809 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 2: And you know, some of what's going on here is 810 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 2: that the tech bubble has burst in this post nine 811 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 2: to eleven period right, the period immediately after the attacks 812 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 2: from the US is invading Afghanistan and spinning up towards 813 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 2: invading Iraq is a bad time for big tech. The 814 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 2: dot com bubble had burst, and the economy in general 815 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 2: had shit. The bed is partly as a result of 816 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 2: the attacks. Peter, who has always had a good gut 817 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,280 Speaker 2: instinct for the momentum of the moment and culture, opted 818 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,879 Speaker 2: to spend a lot of the next two years kind 819 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 2: of fucking around, right. He like he gets from two 820 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 2: thousand and two to two thousand and four that like, there, 821 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,800 Speaker 2: this is not really a great time to be investing 822 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 2: in most things. And he's also he's just sold his 823 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 2: first company. He's mega rich now, so some of what 824 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 2: he's doing is just, you know, he's kind of idly 825 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 2: shorting his old business the US economy. But he's also 826 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,439 Speaker 2: just kind of like doing the very understandable thing, which 827 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 2: is partying for a while, you know. So this is 828 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 2: also where Peter, you could kind of see this as 829 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 2: he's getting some space and he starts to find himself 830 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 2: during this period. Chaff Gin rights that as CEO of PayPal, 831 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 2: Peter had dressed down in a T shirt and old jeans, 832 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 2: but as soon as he sold off his interest in 833 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 2: the company. Quote now Teal had a wardrobe full of 834 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 2: suits and a silver Ferrari spider three p. Sixty read, 835 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 2: he told The New York Times magazine would have been 836 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 2: over the top. He purchased a ten thousand square foot 837 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 2: mansion in San Francisco and filled it with art, but 838 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 2: also conference rooms, a day to night lounge, and a 839 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 2: kitchen meant for buffets. It was a place to work 840 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 2: and host work, but chaf gin rights. There were no keepsakes, 841 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 2: no magazines, and no family photos. Teal's homes, as one 842 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 2: visitor remarked, referring to the Presidio mansion and a grand 843 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 2: apartment that Peter acquired in New York City, looked like 844 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 2: stage sets and it's hard to tell someone actually lives 845 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 2: in them. I feel like that's just being mega rich. 846 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 2: You've got enough be able to keep everything clean all 847 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,919 Speaker 2: the time, and you want a lot of nice star yeah. 848 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,439 Speaker 2: Teal invested money in an eye club called Frisson after 849 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 2: one of his friend friends bragged about a different nightclub 850 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 2: in New York City that had co ed bathrooms and 851 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 2: so uh. Frissan is largely based around its co ed bathrooms, 852 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 2: which are designed to provide couples with an easy way 853 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 2: to fuck in a public bathroom because some people want that. 854 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 2: That's at least, you know the allegation from Chapkins book 855 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 2: that like he builds this night because a friend is like, yeah, 856 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 2: there's this fucking club in New York and you have 857 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 2: sex with your girlfriend in the bathrooms. 858 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 3: And Peter's like, I. 859 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 2: Need to own one of those in the in the 860 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 2: West Coast. 861 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,359 Speaker 3: Uh, Silicon Valley. It's yeah, yeah, bathroom fuck. 862 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've invented fucking in a club. Bathroom. Congratulations. Peter 863 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 2: like comes in one day dressed as Steve Jobs, Like, 864 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 2: I've had an incredibly great idea doing cocaine in a bathroom. 865 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 2: This is going to revolutionized partying as. 866 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 3: A rich guy for san is like the name of 867 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 3: like a USA Networks, Uh like rom coms version of 868 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 3: a club. Yeah, it's like that's when the guys from 869 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 3: suits went to. 870 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Now it also hosted fine dining, and 871 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 2: I gotta say it works for a while, although in 872 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 2: a way that's creepy. In retrospect, Chief Gen makes hay 873 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 2: out of the celebrities that became regulars. Quote Lars Ulrich, 874 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 2: Robert Redford, Kevin Spacey, what a party? 875 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 3: Robert Redford? Cool? 876 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 2: Fine, yeah, Robert Redford, He's really the sandwich. 877 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 3: Yeh, super cool. Yeah, Lars Ulrich and. 878 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 2: Kevin Lars Alway in the period oh God, because it's 879 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 2: also like that's like page yeah yeah, Lars Alric space 880 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 2: God because yeah, that's like peak angry at fucking nabster. 881 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 2: Lars Ulrich and I don't and I'm not gonna make 882 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,320 Speaker 2: allegations about Kevin Spacey, given to how litigious he is, 883 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 2: but like, read something about Kevin Spacey. Just just read 884 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,279 Speaker 2: something about Kevin Spacey and then make a guess what's 885 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 2: going on in the bathrooms of Frassan casting for great movies? Obviously, 886 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 2: so he tries his hand at publishing in this period 887 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 2: two and you are not going to guess what magazine 888 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:30,280 Speaker 2: he launches. 889 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 3: What what sport? 890 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,680 Speaker 2: Would Peter Thiel launch a magazine based around in two 891 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:42,360 Speaker 2: thousand and two or four something like that school squash? 892 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 3: I don't know, squash. 893 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:45,399 Speaker 2: Okay, you got a guess? 894 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 3: Noah, I mean I thought you were giving us like 895 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 3: the foreshadowing with Ping Pong. 896 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 2: No, that would have been very I would have respected 897 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 2: the hell out of that if he had tried to 898 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,359 Speaker 2: get a Ping Bong magazine off the ground about all 899 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 2: the time, Pickle, no, not pick I don't know that exists. 900 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,800 Speaker 3: Just like Ping Pong won a slightly large record anywhere. 901 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Frisbee, it's ping pong for dads. Frisbee, Frisbee, no ball. 902 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 2: I'm satisfied that none of you guessed. The magazine he 903 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,280 Speaker 2: launches is named American Thunder, and it's it's about Nascar. 904 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: That sounds like, sounds like a dirty magazine. 905 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 3: It may have been. 906 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:37,320 Speaker 2: It was a little bit pornographic. This is a psyop. 907 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, he is. 908 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,360 Speaker 2: He does this. The goal of this is he starts 909 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 2: a NASCAR magazine and he hires only his right wing 910 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 2: think tank friends to write about in it, and their 911 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 2: goal is to use NASCAR's cultural cachet with like regular 912 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 2: conservatives to push more of their extremist like libertarian ideas 913 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 2: to Republicans. Right, that's the goal of American Thunder. And 914 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 2: it's wild to me he puts ten million dollars into 915 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,360 Speaker 2: this magazine despite the fact that he is not interested 916 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 2: in Nascar. He brings his old Stanford Review buddies in 917 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,320 Speaker 2: and the first issue, rather than like talking about NASCAR 918 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,839 Speaker 2: in a meaningful way, has like an essay about how 919 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 2: the magazine is not going to embody any sense of 920 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 2: political correctness, which at this maybe today that would work. 921 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 2: At this point in time, the kind of people who 922 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,439 Speaker 2: buy a NASCAR magazine really just want to read about 923 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 2: Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhart. You know, like just sit 924 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 2: in your rants, know. 925 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 3: This, What if hold on, hold on? Wait, okay, what 926 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 3: if he had done that but with pampon that would. 927 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 2: Be incredibly funny, just like a red pill. 928 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,399 Speaker 3: Everybody throw ping pong. 929 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 2: His Ping Pong magazine is entirely about the gold standard. 930 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 2: There's just a forty five pay ranton here about euthanizing 931 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 2: the poor. I was trying to buy a new racket. 932 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 2: I still don't know what kind of table again. Yeah, 933 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,320 Speaker 2: so yes, this is It seems to have been a 934 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,160 Speaker 2: badly disguised tempt to attempt to propagandize to normal working jos. 935 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 2: And this is embodied well by the magazine's Real Guys column. 936 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,360 Speaker 2: And here's how Chifkin describes that it was written not 937 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 2: by an auto journalist but by the online editor for 938 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 2: The Weekly Standard, who devoted his first column to the 939 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 2: idea that ESPN had been emasculated by namby pamby political correctness, 940 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 2: the grub page where a normal magazine would have struck 941 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 2: the barbecue recipes included in its inaugural column. 942 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:43,040 Speaker 3: Incredible. 943 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, a possibly tongue in cheek anthropological discussion of why 944 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:52,360 Speaker 2: household cooking should be considered women's work. Everyday cooking is ature. 945 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,839 Speaker 2: A few men ever get around to, or even care 946 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,160 Speaker 2: to get around to. We are grateful that this is 947 00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 2: how things have worked out. So grateful we'll even help 948 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,440 Speaker 2: with the dishes from time to time. Fuck, I just 949 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 2: tell people how to fucking make a barbecue sauce. 950 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:06,319 Speaker 5: Man. 951 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,919 Speaker 2: Come on, somebody needs this in their NASCAR magazine. 952 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,280 Speaker 1: Up Jesus Christ. 953 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 2: So it says a lot about the economics of magazines, 954 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,320 Speaker 2: because like, if somebody hands me ten million dollars to 955 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 2: start a media company, I think I can do a 956 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 2: lot with ten million dollars. Peter's magazine is bankrupt by 957 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 2: the end of two thousand and five. It lasts about 958 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,719 Speaker 2: a year, So that's a pretty I think even with 959 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,000 Speaker 2: magazine money, that's a pretty You know more about this 960 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 2: than me, no, but that seems like a pretty fast 961 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:35,239 Speaker 2: burn rate. 962 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 3: I mean, good on him, you know, good on him. 963 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,800 Speaker 3: I'm sure there's some lavish photo shoots, definitely, you know, 964 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 3: featuring Camille Pallia. 965 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 2: Uh, you knows favorite intellectually, yeah. 966 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,759 Speaker 3: After on top of a stock car. Yeah, I'm sure 967 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 3: there's some real like you know, a lot of like 968 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:08,280 Speaker 3: nineties technology devoted to like you know, Mussolini U photoshopped 969 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,560 Speaker 3: into you know, Dale Earnhardt's machine. 970 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,360 Speaker 2: I wonder if we got because Dale Earnhardt famously like 971 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,120 Speaker 2: helped lead a crusade against like the use of Confederate 972 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 2: flags at NASCAR events. I wonder if there's an angry 973 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,760 Speaker 2: column about that in this I don't remember the exact 974 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,919 Speaker 2: year that that happened, though, Uh. 975 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 3: It's like bring back to General Lee. 976 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wonder if that was a cause for 977 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:33,400 Speaker 2: these people. 978 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:35,920 Speaker 3: Do you know that dukes of hazard guys were in 979 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,279 Speaker 3: there somehow? Yeah? 980 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus Chris Peterteel's NASCAR magazine. The issues of that 981 00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:48,359 Speaker 2: have to be a collector side at this point. Ready, Yeah, 982 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,759 Speaker 2: American Thunder is bankrupt by the end of the year. 983 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,399 Speaker 2: Forssan lasts a little bit longer and makes it till 984 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. Now, the fact that he's pouring 985 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 2: money into these and all of them are lost lostly, 986 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,640 Speaker 2: you could say it doesn't hurt him. He's got plenty 987 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,320 Speaker 2: of money, and neither of him have been about making 988 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,960 Speaker 2: a profit. Both were away scheme, There were schemes to 989 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 2: gain influence, right. The nightclub was a way of like 990 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 2: setting him up in like the popular, like cool hip, 991 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,560 Speaker 2: celebrity set, and this magazine was an attempt to gain 992 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:20,920 Speaker 2: influence with the working class. 993 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:21,200 Speaker 3: Right. 994 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,200 Speaker 2: So the fact that neither of these make money doesn't 995 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 2: disturb Peter. But he also knows that he's not going 996 00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,239 Speaker 2: to be able to coast forever off of his PayPal money. 997 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,279 Speaker 2: And you know what, we here aren't going to be 998 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,440 Speaker 2: able to coast forever off of the money we already 999 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,800 Speaker 2: have from ads. So why don't you listen to a 1000 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:42,279 Speaker 2: couple more You're back? 1001 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,440 Speaker 1: That was beautiful, Thank you, thank you. 1002 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 2: I thought that was one of my better one of 1003 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:51,920 Speaker 2: my better plugs. So by this point, Peter Thiel, you know, 1004 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 2: kind of the period he's trying all this stuff out. 1005 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 2: He's also started a new company, an investment firm called 1006 00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 2: Clarion Capital, which had been founded in two thousand and two. Now, Peter, 1007 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,680 Speaker 2: not long after Clarium gets found and is going to 1008 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,000 Speaker 2: get in on the ground floor of investing in Facebook. 1009 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 2: He gets a ten percent steak in the company, but 1010 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,319 Speaker 2: that deal is also structured in some ways as a loan. 1011 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 2: This is one of those things that's covered a lot 1012 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 2: in the social network right. Basically, he puts the steak 1013 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 2: in the company to which allows Facebook to survive in 1014 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 2: its early days, but he does so in such a 1015 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:28,920 Speaker 2: way that in order to make the company viable, Zuckerberg 1016 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,279 Speaker 2: has to ice out one of his other founders who 1017 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,440 Speaker 2: has like a twenty seven percent steak in the company, 1018 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 2: which he does. This is Zuck's big first betrayal, and 1019 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,400 Speaker 2: you can see Peter is kind of like the puppet 1020 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,000 Speaker 2: master in it. Now again, these are all the kids 1021 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,719 Speaker 2: who started Facebook. So the fact that they are backstabbing 1022 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,839 Speaker 2: each other at Peter Teel's incitement, I'm not really all 1023 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,280 Speaker 2: that interested in. It's like a mark of human evil. 1024 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:51,880 Speaker 2: That just seems like the kind of thing that was 1025 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 2: always going to happen at Facebook. But you could see 1026 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,560 Speaker 2: that like Peter's the guy who corrupts Mark Zuckerberg. I 1027 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,560 Speaker 2: don't know, I think that's really accurate. I think Mark 1028 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,239 Speaker 2: was always willing to be corrupted, but that's one version 1029 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:05,880 Speaker 2: of the story. 1030 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:07,080 Speaker 3: Now. 1031 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:09,839 Speaker 2: The play by play here has been covered and off 1032 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,960 Speaker 2: in movies in our own episodes on Marky Mark. What 1033 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,800 Speaker 2: I did learn reading Chaefkin's recitation of events is that 1034 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,719 Speaker 2: Peter is kind of he kind of fucks up his 1035 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,359 Speaker 2: Facebook investment. He gets in early on the ground floor, 1036 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,320 Speaker 2: and he does make money, but he loses his He 1037 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:27,960 Speaker 2: gets in on this first round and makes a profit, 1038 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 2: but when it comes time for the second another round 1039 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 2: of investments, he thinks the business is overvalued and like 1040 00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 2: like one hundred and seventy million, like, he thinks Facebook 1041 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:43,320 Speaker 2: is overvalued, and so he fails to roll his investment forward. 1042 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,439 Speaker 2: And as a result, despite being famous as this early 1043 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,200 Speaker 2: Facebook investment investor, he doesn't make much money off of Facebook. 1044 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:50,239 Speaker 3: What. 1045 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, he really does not make shit compared to what 1046 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,719 Speaker 2: you would expect, right for normal people. He makes a 1047 00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:58,800 Speaker 2: lot of money off of Facebook, right, but for what 1048 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,320 Speaker 2: you would expect in base he does not make a 1049 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,959 Speaker 2: lot because he kind of bows out of subsequent rounds 1050 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,200 Speaker 2: of investment because he doesn't believe in the company. 1051 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 3: Right. He's really his whole, his whole thing. Okay, So 1052 00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,439 Speaker 3: like investment number one PayPal, which he then. 1053 00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:19,440 Speaker 2: Sells right, kind of shorts yeah, and. 1054 00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,360 Speaker 3: Then Facebook, which he does put money in, picks the 1055 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,680 Speaker 3: founders against one another maybe if they're easy to do 1056 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 3: it anyway, and then doesn't really believe in it, so 1057 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:29,640 Speaker 3: doesn't really maximize his. 1058 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is it's not It would never be 1059 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,440 Speaker 2: fair to say Peter has bad instincts because he is 1060 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 2: right about a lot. He's right if there's something in PayPal, 1061 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,280 Speaker 2: but he's wrong about how much there is in PayPal. 1062 00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,560 Speaker 2: And this is actually going to be a real pattern 1063 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 2: in his investments where he'll understand something important but not 1064 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,040 Speaker 2: to the extent that allows him to actually make much 1065 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,719 Speaker 2: money off of it, right, Or he'll he'll get a 1066 00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,680 Speaker 2: guess right, but he won't commit to it to the 1067 00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,480 Speaker 2: extent that allows him to really profit from it. And 1068 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,239 Speaker 2: I think that's a really interesting aspect of him, right, 1069 00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,319 Speaker 2: that he he has these good instincts in some ways, 1070 00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 2: but that he also consistently fails to follow up on 1071 00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,440 Speaker 2: them enough. I find that very interesting and actually honestly 1072 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 2: kind of relatable, like as a guy who's made some 1073 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:20,640 Speaker 2: of his bones predicting things, and also I am aware 1074 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,520 Speaker 2: of the things that I have been wrong about. I 1075 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,959 Speaker 2: really find that kind of like, like, I get it, Peter, 1076 00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:32,760 Speaker 2: It's it's hard, actually, you know. So, as he's exploring 1077 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,400 Speaker 2: life as a venture capitalists and kind of the early aughts, 1078 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 2: Peter continues his involvement with Stanford organizing a symposium on 1079 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 2: politics and the apocalypse and this is these are this 1080 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,680 Speaker 2: is prior to two thousand and eight. So the housing 1081 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:48,680 Speaker 2: crisis is coming up. This is another one of those 1082 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,040 Speaker 2: good predictions. Peter sees the housing crisis coming up. He 1083 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 2: sees that economic like crumbling, but he as opposed to 1084 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 2: just being like, oh, there's a house collapse. It's going 1085 00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,240 Speaker 2: to be a real problem and there will be some 1086 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,160 Speaker 2: financial opportunities as a result of that problem, which like 1087 00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:10,640 Speaker 2: the big short guys also right, Peter sees the collapse coming, 1088 00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 2: but he assumes the whole system is going to crumble, right, 1089 00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:17,200 Speaker 2: Like he thinks he literally thinks the housing collapse is 1090 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,840 Speaker 2: going to destroy the entire US government basically, right, what yeah, yeah, 1091 00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,040 Speaker 2: So again he's like, you're right, but not in the 1092 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,840 Speaker 2: way that allows you to like, but you also like 1093 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,000 Speaker 2: are wrong in a way that means that you can't 1094 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,120 Speaker 2: really profit off of the initial rightness there, right, you 1095 00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 2: see the problem and then you massively over extend it 1096 00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,200 Speaker 2: because of your ideology, and so you fuck up at 1097 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,560 Speaker 2: profiting from this moment in American history. 1098 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:47,680 Speaker 3: So he like y two ks yes, yes, yeah, in 1099 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,360 Speaker 3: mind what ye do the mind say? Civilization was supposed 1100 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,000 Speaker 3: to be destroyed like twelve. 1101 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,160 Speaker 2: Twenty twelve, so that was that was going around at 1102 00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:56,919 Speaker 2: this point in time. 1103 00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was just a little for the Mayan apocalypt. 1104 00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,840 Speaker 2: Yah, maybe Kevin Space he told him about the Mayan 1105 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,000 Speaker 2: apocalypse during a dinner at SAD. 1106 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 3: So he thought that. He's like, Okay, there's all these 1107 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:19,040 Speaker 3: like derivatives or problematic housing rate you were giving mortgage 1108 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:24,160 Speaker 3: launches too many people. Therefore collapse of all Western yes, civilization, Yes. 1109 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,520 Speaker 2: And I think it's because he sees that banks and 1110 00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,640 Speaker 2: stuff are going to go under, but he doesn't see 1111 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,800 Speaker 2: that the government is going to respond in any way 1112 00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,080 Speaker 2: to bail them out and prop up the system, right, 1113 00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 2: which is such an interesting shortcoming to not see that, 1114 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,240 Speaker 2: like the people running the system have a sense of 1115 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,440 Speaker 2: self preservation, right, like whatever you say about it, like 1116 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,960 Speaker 2: Obama and or you know, even if it had been 1117 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,000 Speaker 2: bushes like. None of them had a desire in the 1118 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 2: entire financial system collapsing. You know, no, definitely not yeah. 1119 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,040 Speaker 2: Writing in twenty twenty one for The New Yorker about 1120 00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 2: this Politics and the Apocalypse Symposium, Anna Winer summarizes Teal's contribution, 1121 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,680 Speaker 2: later published in an essay titled The Straussian Moment was 1122 01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,480 Speaker 2: built on the premise that September eleventh had upended the 1123 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,800 Speaker 2: entire political and military framework of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, 1124 01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:18,640 Speaker 2: demanding a re examination of the foundations of modern politics. 1125 01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,480 Speaker 2: The essay drew from a grab bag of thinkers. It 1126 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:24,560 Speaker 2: mediated on Thomas Hobbs and John Locke, and then combined 1127 01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 2: ideas from the conservative political theorists Leo Strauss and Karl Schmidt, 1128 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 2: who wrote about the inadequacies of liberal democracy, with the 1129 01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,120 Speaker 2: work of Girard to offer a diagnosis of modernity. A 1130 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,480 Speaker 2: religious war has been brought to a land that no 1131 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 2: longer cares for religious wars, Teele wrote, Today mere self 1132 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,800 Speaker 2: preservation forces all of us to look at the world anew, 1133 01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:47,920 Speaker 2: to think strange new thoughts, and thereby to awaken from 1134 01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 2: that very long and profitable period of intellectual slumber and 1135 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:56,520 Speaker 2: amnesia that is so misleadingly called the Enlightenment. There's so 1136 01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,520 Speaker 2: much there. There's so much there. 1137 01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,600 Speaker 3: First of all, this guy is fucking messy. Yeah, you know, 1138 01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:08,760 Speaker 3: it's this guy is out of fucking control. Yeah. Like 1139 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,160 Speaker 3: the whole point of terrorism is to overreact, and this 1140 01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:14,560 Speaker 3: guy wants to overrea. 1141 01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 2: We have to overreact. 1142 01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:16,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 1143 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so hard that he wants to overturn the Enlightenment. Yeah, 1144 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,840 Speaker 3: it's like, well, what the fuck? 1145 01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,760 Speaker 2: I think it's because he's writing about like, America doesn't 1146 01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,120 Speaker 2: care for religious wars, but we've been forced ones. Like 1147 01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:34,680 Speaker 2: but Peter, you're a Christian culture warrior, right, Like you 1148 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,840 Speaker 2: have these very weird ideas about Christianity and morality that 1149 01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,280 Speaker 2: you are kind of trying to force on people through 1150 01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,400 Speaker 2: your politics. That's a religious war, right like that To 1151 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,040 Speaker 2: say that America doesn't care for religious wars and then 1152 01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,240 Speaker 2: to look out at twenty twenties US politics is a 1153 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 2: wild thing, right, and it's it's, yeah, just a fascinating 1154 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:57,520 Speaker 2: statement for him to make, right. 1155 01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,600 Speaker 3: This idea that like yeah, yeah, I mean, look, all 1156 01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,720 Speaker 3: the problems that we had after nine to eleven, or 1157 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:10,000 Speaker 3: a lot of them were because fragile men like him overreacted, 1158 01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,959 Speaker 3: freaked the fuck out, treated it like a religious war 1159 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,680 Speaker 3: rather than as you know, some kind of active terrorism, 1160 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,200 Speaker 3: treated as some kind of like apocalyptic conflict. Yeah, we 1161 01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,520 Speaker 3: have to engage in this clash. Yeah, oh my god. 1162 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it is. That's part of what's interesting 1163 01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,720 Speaker 2: to me is that again, for all his desire to 1164 01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:35,840 Speaker 2: be seen as this like contrarian standing apart from the herd, 1165 01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:39,440 Speaker 2: he's just a neo cod like in this period at least, like, 1166 01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:41,960 Speaker 2: how else do you look at this? Right, Because like 1167 01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,240 Speaker 2: a big part of him after this point and in 1168 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,520 Speaker 2: this post PayPal period is he's still scared and frightened 1169 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:50,800 Speaker 2: of nine to eleven, and he is obsessed with the 1170 01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,560 Speaker 2: idea that nine to eleven has proved we need to 1171 01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:56,360 Speaker 2: give up freedom for security. This is where he really 1172 01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,560 Speaker 2: jettisons a lot of those libertarian ideas. 1173 01:02:58,640 --> 01:02:58,760 Speaker 3: Right. 1174 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,640 Speaker 2: He describes the acecluse attempt to protect civil liberties in 1175 01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:06,400 Speaker 2: the post nine to eleven period as an unviable anachronism. 1176 01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 2: He acknowledges that the twentieth century included a great deal 1177 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,200 Speaker 2: of programs that claimed to exist economically to develop the 1178 01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,919 Speaker 2: Third World, but really just extracted or put more hash 1179 01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,320 Speaker 2: in the cash in the hands of dictators. But he 1180 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,120 Speaker 2: also argues that this doesn't explain why people from the 1181 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,080 Speaker 2: global South would want to attack the rest the West. 1182 01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,400 Speaker 2: His reasoning way of looking at Osama bin Laden is 1183 01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,840 Speaker 2: that this is a rich kid, right, and so all 1184 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,160 Speaker 2: of these arguments about how we can stop terrorism and 1185 01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,920 Speaker 2: we can stop these kind of conflicts between the West 1186 01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:41,680 Speaker 2: and other parts of the world by increasing economic development 1187 01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:45,280 Speaker 2: in those areas are bullshit because Osama bin Laden was rich, 1188 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:51,680 Speaker 2: and like what much like the fact that Osama, like Osama, 1189 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:56,640 Speaker 2: did not start the conflict that he was a part 1190 01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,200 Speaker 2: of here, right, and like the fact that he is 1191 01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,320 Speaker 2: a rich kid, it makes sense in the way that 1192 01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,000 Speaker 2: like you, Peter, were a rich kid who decided that 1193 01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 2: you want to destroy democracy, right, Like that is the 1194 01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,960 Speaker 2: class of people who tend to become revolutionaries often come 1195 01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:15,440 Speaker 2: from a degree of financial privilege, because those are the 1196 01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,320 Speaker 2: people who have the time and the space to think 1197 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,760 Speaker 2: about stuff like overthrowing the system in the moment, and 1198 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,160 Speaker 2: you have the resources to go about doing it. This 1199 01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,960 Speaker 2: is not an uncommon story in history. The fact that 1200 01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,160 Speaker 2: bin Laden becomes this kind of guy is no weirder 1201 01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,160 Speaker 2: than the fact that Peter becomes this kind of guy right, 1202 01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:40,120 Speaker 2: game recognizes game, and like the fact that osamban Laden 1203 01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:42,120 Speaker 2: was not an a grief poor person doesn't mean that 1204 01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,440 Speaker 2: the economic betrayal of the global South isn't an important 1205 01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:47,720 Speaker 2: factor in geopolitical instability. It's a lot of what Peter 1206 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,920 Speaker 2: says is that, like, you can't stop instability and conflict 1207 01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:56,040 Speaker 2: by helping to improve living standards in poor countries. Because 1208 01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:58,200 Speaker 2: Osama bin Laden did nine to eleven. 1209 01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 3: It's like two sentences have nothing to do with you. 1210 01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, peterbelievable. Yeah, it's it's shot and it's such 1211 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,040 Speaker 2: bushy and logic. Again for this guy who really wants 1212 01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:18,000 Speaker 2: to stand apart from the herd. This is just the 1213 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,360 Speaker 2: kind of shit my parents were saying in two thousand 1214 01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:20,800 Speaker 2: and five. 1215 01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,880 Speaker 3: It's also like completely wild. Then this guy goes on 1216 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:31,840 Speaker 3: to basically be like one of Glenn Greenwald's big Yeah. Yeah, 1217 01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:38,960 Speaker 3: it's like some weird like twisted orseship. Also, it's like 1218 01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,160 Speaker 3: this guy, so this guy is basically just like more 1219 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,880 Speaker 3: Christian Dick Cheney, more techy Cheney. 1220 01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, more techie, and probably more Christian. Yeah, you're probably 1221 01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:51,480 Speaker 2: that's probably accurate. 1222 01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:52,880 Speaker 3: More for song. 1223 01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, with more for song, Yeah, a little more Kevin 1224 01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:58,200 Speaker 2: Spacey too, probably Yeah, no, no, no, that's not an 1225 01:05:58,200 --> 01:05:59,120 Speaker 2: allegation we're making. 1226 01:05:59,520 --> 01:05:59,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1227 01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,080 Speaker 2: So Deeals analysis I think is inch deep here because 1228 01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,400 Speaker 2: he's in this period, and I'll say somewhat understandably because 1229 01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,800 Speaker 2: everyone was entirely focused still on nine to eleven. Now, 1230 01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:12,960 Speaker 2: the problem for Peter is that, and this is kind 1231 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:15,760 Speaker 2: of what Bin Laden like. Peter falls into ben Laden's 1232 01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,960 Speaker 2: trap perfectly here. He sees nine to eleven as this 1233 01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:24,280 Speaker 2: singular incident, and it clearly terrifies him. And he writes 1234 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,560 Speaker 2: that this proved to him and proved to the world 1235 01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,840 Speaker 2: that quote, a tiny number of people could inflict unprecedented 1236 01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:32,720 Speaker 2: levels of damage and death. And this is why everything 1237 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,680 Speaker 2: about liberal democracy, about civil rights has to change, Right, 1238 01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,200 Speaker 2: is that now we know it's possible for a small 1239 01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,840 Speaker 2: number of people to kill a large number of people, right, 1240 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,880 Speaker 2: and that that completely changes the game. 1241 01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:44,480 Speaker 3: Now. 1242 01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,680 Speaker 2: I don't think Peter's being entirely honest here, because that's 1243 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:50,800 Speaker 2: not what scared him about nine to eleven. The twenty 1244 01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,840 Speaker 2: first century has been a century of aaron drone strikes 1245 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,959 Speaker 2: of small numbers of people murdering large numbers of people 1246 01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,440 Speaker 2: in countries all over the world. Peter doesn't care these 1247 01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,760 Speaker 2: dead people because he's never going to get stuck in 1248 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:03,520 Speaker 2: a war zone. 1249 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:03,960 Speaker 3: Right. 1250 01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,040 Speaker 2: That's part of why he got a New Zealand citizenship 1251 01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:08,760 Speaker 2: for himself, Right, it's because he's not going to be 1252 01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,120 Speaker 2: anywhere close to a war. Nine to eleven shatters pedter Tiel. 1253 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,560 Speaker 2: Not because it proves that small numbers of people can 1254 01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:17,560 Speaker 2: kill large numbers of people, but because it proved that 1255 01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:19,960 Speaker 2: a small number of people could kill a lot of 1256 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:20,760 Speaker 2: rich people. 1257 01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:21,240 Speaker 3: Right. 1258 01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 2: And I'm not doing all justifying nine to eleven thing, 1259 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:25,720 Speaker 2: but like nine to eleven is a strike on the 1260 01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,200 Speaker 2: financial center of the country. A lot of CEO's businessmen, 1261 01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,480 Speaker 2: people who are executives at big companies die in that attack, 1262 01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,240 Speaker 2: an attack on the World Trade Center. Peter can see 1263 01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,040 Speaker 2: himself as being a victim of that. He very well 1264 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,960 Speaker 2: might have been in the World Trade Center, right, Like 1265 01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,640 Speaker 2: that is the kind of thing that could have affected him. 1266 01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:47,680 Speaker 2: And that's why this scares him. Right, It's not that 1267 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:49,800 Speaker 2: a lot of people are a small numbers who can 1268 01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:51,840 Speaker 2: kill a lot of people. It's that I am not 1269 01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:56,600 Speaker 2: safe as a wealthy businessman, right, Like someone could kill me. 1270 01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:58,480 Speaker 2: That's why this fucks him up. 1271 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:04,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that, like, you're the degree to which 1272 01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:08,560 Speaker 3: the people that really freaked out over nine to eleven, like, 1273 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,160 Speaker 3: none of them actually lived in the places where nine 1274 01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,640 Speaker 3: to eleven happened. No, Like I say, this is a 1275 01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,400 Speaker 3: New Yorker, Like New Yorkers did not freak out over 1276 01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:21,040 Speaker 3: nine to eleven. Like, but people you know from vugging 1277 01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:27,280 Speaker 3: uranium mind South Africa who relocate to Palo Alto there 1278 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:29,040 Speaker 3: to lose a mind. 1279 01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, because oh my god, I might have been in 1280 01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:35,240 Speaker 2: a place that was My entire life is about separating 1281 01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:38,320 Speaker 2: myself from the masses and gaining a sense of safety 1282 01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:42,000 Speaker 2: as and like value as a result of that. And like, 1283 01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,840 Speaker 2: I could have just died like everyone else. I also 1284 01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,560 Speaker 2: think that's why he's so scared of death. It's not 1285 01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:51,760 Speaker 2: just the cessation of his own being, but death inevitably. 1286 01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,720 Speaker 2: The fact that you will die, this is true of 1287 01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:57,479 Speaker 2: all of us, links you to everyone who ever has 1288 01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,320 Speaker 2: and ever will live, right, it is one thing we 1289 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:05,000 Speaker 2: all have in common. Everyone will die. And Peter hates 1290 01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,360 Speaker 2: the idea that he has anything to do with everyone else, 1291 01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:10,519 Speaker 2: that he has every something in common with the rabble 1292 01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,800 Speaker 2: that there is a thing that inevitably, inextricably binds him 1293 01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:19,040 Speaker 2: to a poor man in fucking Deli. Right, they're both 1294 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,600 Speaker 2: gonna die, and in fact, that guy living on the 1295 01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,080 Speaker 2: street of Delhi might live longer than Peter, just because 1296 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:27,759 Speaker 2: you know, shit happens. Right, Peter could be the victim 1297 01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,679 Speaker 2: of an attack someday and then maybe he'll be outlived 1298 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:31,559 Speaker 2: by a poor person. 1299 01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:31,880 Speaker 3: Right. 1300 01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,880 Speaker 2: Peter cannot handle this reality. It drives him mad. 1301 01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:42,200 Speaker 3: My brain is fried right now. Yeah, I'm just I'm 1302 01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:45,120 Speaker 3: trying to make the logical inferences to this dude makes 1303 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,480 Speaker 3: and I'm having trouble doing it. Like I don't understand, 1304 01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:50,920 Speaker 3: Like there are people, tons of people I disagree with, 1305 01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:52,680 Speaker 3: and I see how they get from A to B. 1306 01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:57,400 Speaker 3: This is like from A to the symbol for you know, 1307 01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,920 Speaker 3: for boron or something. I don't understand where, like where 1308 01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:03,280 Speaker 3: it is is even coming from. 1309 01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:08,560 Speaker 2: It's yeah, yeah, because it is confusing. I think, what 1310 01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,599 Speaker 2: if I had to describe it, it's oppositional defiant disorder 1311 01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:17,160 Speaker 2: with main like merging with main character syndrome. Right, Like 1312 01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:20,240 Speaker 2: that's that's that's kind of how I would look at 1313 01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:24,120 Speaker 2: Peter here now. Later in that same essay. He thinks back. 1314 01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:27,560 Speaker 2: He goes back to the philosophical writings of Gerard on mimetics, 1315 01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:30,639 Speaker 2: arguing that the need to keep up with your neighbors 1316 01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,840 Speaker 2: leads to an ever escalating rivalry. He declares that the 1317 01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:37,160 Speaker 2: disturbing truth of mimesis has been suppressed, and in the 1318 01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:41,280 Speaker 2: same breath notes that envy is a mortal sin and Catholicism. Now, 1319 01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,559 Speaker 2: the conspiracism is weird here, but it's no weirder than 1320 01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:48,200 Speaker 2: what theater Teal goes on to claim about ape anthropology. 1321 01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:51,400 Speaker 2: This is again an essay about nine to eleven. At 1322 01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 2: the core of the mimetic account, there exists a mystery 1323 01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:56,680 Speaker 2: what exactly happened in the distant past when all the 1324 01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,759 Speaker 2: apes were reaching for the same object, when the rivalry 1325 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:05,680 Speaker 2: between memetic devils threatened to escalate into unlimited violence. I 1326 01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:07,640 Speaker 2: don't know at that moment occurred. Peter, what are you 1327 01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:08,679 Speaker 2: fucking talking about? 1328 01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:08,920 Speaker 3: Man? 1329 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:14,559 Speaker 2: Stop this shit? Stop reading Gerard? What the fuck are 1330 01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:15,320 Speaker 2: you talking about? 1331 01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:15,760 Speaker 3: Bat? Really? 1332 01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 1: Stop reading Gerard. 1333 01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:19,080 Speaker 2: What he's saying here. 1334 01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:19,320 Speaker 3: Is that. 1335 01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:24,240 Speaker 2: There's this because like we get our we want things 1336 01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,080 Speaker 2: because we see other people having things or wanting things, 1337 01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:30,720 Speaker 2: and that like forms throughout this memetic process, like our 1338 01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,160 Speaker 2: system of desire, and that like you know, this truth 1339 01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:39,000 Speaker 2: has been suppressed by the secret masters of the world 1340 01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,720 Speaker 2: to someun extent, And there's this mystery of like, well, 1341 01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:45,240 Speaker 2: how did you know, how did we avoid this like 1342 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:49,320 Speaker 2: kind of escalating sense of like jealousy and rivalry for 1343 01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,639 Speaker 2: things escalate into this unlimited violence that would have destroyed 1344 01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:54,920 Speaker 2: the species. And the answer is, we figured out how 1345 01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:59,760 Speaker 2: to scapegoat individuals in order to like stop from mass killing. Right. 1346 01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:04,360 Speaker 2: And Peter has to think in this way because he 1347 01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:07,920 Speaker 2: has this very narrow view of anthropology that's informed by 1348 01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 2: Girard's writing, and this concept Gerard has of like war 1349 01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,479 Speaker 2: of all against all, right, and that the only way 1350 01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:17,560 Speaker 2: to avoid this is to gradually drive the combatants to 1351 01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:21,720 Speaker 2: gang up against a scapegoat. Right now, among other things, 1352 01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:23,240 Speaker 2: if we're just talking about ape, and if we're talking 1353 01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:26,519 Speaker 2: about anthropology, this is all ignoring the degree to which 1354 01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,160 Speaker 2: primates work together and collaborate, which is also like as 1355 01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,720 Speaker 2: much a war and conflict is certainly a part of 1356 01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,439 Speaker 2: primate evolution. You can find like apes, different kind species 1357 01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:38,920 Speaker 2: of simians go to war with each other in like 1358 01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:41,120 Speaker 2: a very recognizable way. You can see that with like 1359 01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:45,920 Speaker 2: chimpanzees and the like. But they also collaborate and work together, right, Like, 1360 01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:48,760 Speaker 2: just picking the one side of things like how they 1361 01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:51,560 Speaker 2: fight for resources and ignoring how they team up in 1362 01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,439 Speaker 2: order to get resources and make a better life for 1363 01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,840 Speaker 2: themselves is kind of cutting out half of existence. 1364 01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:02,560 Speaker 3: This Yeah, it's like what do you only watch like 1365 01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:04,640 Speaker 3: the first ten minutes of two thousand and one on. 1366 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, that's his That's the whole basis of 1367 01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,400 Speaker 2: his like understanding of like mimetic reality. It's like, yeah, 1368 01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:13,360 Speaker 2: monkeys fight. 1369 01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:16,479 Speaker 3: It's so weird. 1370 01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:18,439 Speaker 2: It's really fucking no. 1371 01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:20,600 Speaker 1: And I have had the same face of just like 1372 01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:23,000 Speaker 1: ugh the last ten minutes. 1373 01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:26,599 Speaker 2: Again, studying philosophy is sometimes a problem. 1374 01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:31,479 Speaker 7: This guy needs to take one walk in the woods. Yeah, 1375 01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:36,120 Speaker 7: Like this guy needs to like, I don't know, like 1376 01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:38,439 Speaker 7: read one other book. 1377 01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:42,320 Speaker 2: It's a fucking having that experience of life. He'd been 1378 01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:44,680 Speaker 2: in like a car wreck as a younger man, and 1379 01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:47,280 Speaker 2: it had like a bystander come and pull him out 1380 01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:50,080 Speaker 2: of the ray could have changed his whole impression of humanity. 1381 01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,559 Speaker 2: But instead he's like, we're all apes and we need escapegold. 1382 01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:55,719 Speaker 2: Everyone's going to break down and be fighting and killing 1383 01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:57,559 Speaker 2: each other unless we like and you kind of get 1384 01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,880 Speaker 2: the idea that like, oh, so this war against Islam 1385 01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,000 Speaker 2: you see as like a scapegoat, and maybe now these 1386 01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:06,759 Speaker 2: kind of attacks you're you're kind of working on against, 1387 01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:10,600 Speaker 2: like the trans community, against all these different enemies of conservatism. 1388 01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,320 Speaker 2: You see this as like we I have to give 1389 01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,920 Speaker 2: people a scapegoat in order to stop them from taking 1390 01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,599 Speaker 2: the things I have, because they're they're going to want 1391 01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:22,680 Speaker 2: the things I have because like they've been influenced mometically 1392 01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,599 Speaker 2: to desire the same things that you know, I have received. 1393 01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:28,800 Speaker 2: I think that's like a really kind of a core 1394 01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,360 Speaker 2: aspect of his understanding of how the world works, such 1395 01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:36,320 Speaker 2: a person. At the end, at the ending of this article, 1396 01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:39,960 Speaker 2: this very weird article, Peter comes around to the subject 1397 01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:45,040 Speaker 2: of monarchy, arguing myth transfigure the murdered scapegoats into God. 1398 01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:48,200 Speaker 2: So human beings created scapegoats so we could avoid murdering 1399 01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:51,240 Speaker 2: each other, and then we turned those scapegoats into our 1400 01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:56,120 Speaker 2: early pagan deities, which is like, again, weird. I don't 1401 01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,599 Speaker 2: I don't get that at all. I guess there's there's 1402 01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,240 Speaker 2: like some Greek gods who that kind of makes sense 1403 01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:06,000 Speaker 2: for right, like Prometheus maybe, but that I don't know 1404 01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:08,720 Speaker 2: how how is zeus a murdered scape where it's the 1405 01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:12,280 Speaker 2: murdered scapegoat that's the basis of that? Or like I 1406 01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:15,720 Speaker 2: don't know, man, I think you're maybe like where's a 1407 01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:18,639 Speaker 2: how does a Hurrah Mazda fit into this kind of shit? 1408 01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:20,640 Speaker 2: Like that just seems like a weird statement by a 1409 01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:22,679 Speaker 2: guy who hasn't read a lot about world religion. 1410 01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,320 Speaker 3: I feel like this whole fucking thing is like dude 1411 01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,720 Speaker 3: was on ketamine and just like writing down whatever came 1412 01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:32,240 Speaker 3: to mind, like whether it linked together or not? 1413 01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't know, yeah, because it 1414 01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:42,000 Speaker 2: just doesn't. It feels very college level philosophy to me. 1415 01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,800 Speaker 2: And it also feels like a guy who's trying to 1416 01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:49,320 Speaker 2: justify being an asshole to other people and manipulating them 1417 01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,800 Speaker 2: as like this is the only way that human beings work? 1418 01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,680 Speaker 3: Wait, is he the scapegoat? Like is poor little I 1419 01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:57,280 Speaker 3: think he's afraid he could be. 1420 01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:02,960 Speaker 2: I think he's afraid he could be. Right. I think 1421 01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,400 Speaker 2: that's kind of what's going on here, is that, like 1422 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:09,479 Speaker 2: fundamentally he is try it part of why he's into right, 1423 01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:11,599 Speaker 2: wing politics is he wants to make sure he never 1424 01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,000 Speaker 2: is that there's got to be a scapegoat, and it 1425 01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:16,280 Speaker 2: might be him if he's not careful. So he's going 1426 01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:17,559 Speaker 2: to make sure it's someone else. 1427 01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:23,640 Speaker 3: Right, So it's cruelty, is the point, but like in 1428 01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:24,200 Speaker 3: a good way. 1429 01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:31,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yep, I think that might be it anyway. 1430 01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:36,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the stun silence that means right now. 1431 01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:40,160 Speaker 3: I mean, this is fucking dark and weird, even for 1432 01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:40,639 Speaker 3: this show. 1433 01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:44,160 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Yeah, it's it's it's getting into Peter Thiel's head. 1434 01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,439 Speaker 2: Is not a comfortable place to be. I don't like 1435 01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:46,960 Speaker 2: it here. 1436 01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:51,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not just a weirdo. He's a sicko. 1437 01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:55,640 Speaker 2: He is a sicko. He's a sicko or all of 1438 01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,080 Speaker 2: this is part of some cunning lie that he told 1439 01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:01,000 Speaker 2: a bunch of interviewers over years and case he's even 1440 01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,200 Speaker 2: more of a sick times too. 1441 01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:10,120 Speaker 3: Yeah there's Stephen King. Yeah yeah, he's creating like that 1442 01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,599 Speaker 3: weird hotel in Colorado or whatever. 1443 01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not Stephen King. 1444 01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:18,640 Speaker 1: Nobody's Stephen King. Stephen King isn't even Stephen. 1445 01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:24,960 Speaker 2: King, No, not since he quit the blow. Well that's 1446 01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:27,559 Speaker 2: why we're not going to get a Kujo sequel anytime soon, 1447 01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:32,360 Speaker 2: unless there's Yeah, oh I do want to see Peter 1448 01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:37,600 Speaker 2: Peter Teal right, oh man, that could have been his 1449 01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:39,200 Speaker 2: that might have been what made him, would have made 1450 01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:39,599 Speaker 2: him happy? 1451 01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:43,000 Speaker 1: And what We're only halfway through the saga, Robert uh huh. 1452 01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh cool. We haven't even gotten really to Palante here, 1453 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:50,920 Speaker 2: We've just laid the groundwork. Wait, maybe Trump is Kujo 1454 01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:54,280 Speaker 2: to Yeah, Trump, Trump's his Kujo. That's right, that's right, 1455 01:17:54,720 --> 01:18:00,200 Speaker 2: And that Peter Teal doesn't remember writing him. Yeah, it's 1456 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:01,719 Speaker 2: my favorite Stephen King fact. 1457 01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:04,479 Speaker 3: Is that true? Yeah? 1458 01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the quote from him was something like, 1459 01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:08,519 Speaker 2: Kusho is a great book. I wish I could remember 1460 01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:08,960 Speaker 2: writing it. 1461 01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:09,240 Speaker 3: It was. 1462 01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:11,800 Speaker 2: It was when he was really on the stuff, you know, 1463 01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:16,200 Speaker 2: for him? Yeah, hell yeah, man. That's how you know 1464 01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:18,920 Speaker 2: you're one of the greats. If you write Kusho while 1465 01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:20,240 Speaker 2: fucking snowblinkes. 1466 01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:24,600 Speaker 3: That's incredible. 1467 01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:30,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fucking awesome. Everyone go read the Stephen King book. Noah, 1468 01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:32,000 Speaker 2: you got anything you want to push. 1469 01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:35,439 Speaker 3: Now, you can find me at Noah Shackman. That's n 1470 01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:38,160 Speaker 3: O A H s h A A c h T 1471 01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:43,400 Speaker 3: A man on your social platforms I write for a 1472 01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:46,320 Speaker 3: bunch of different places, is Rolling Stone, Wired, New York, 1473 01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:49,439 Speaker 3: Meg and even got some for The Times coming up. 1474 01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:55,759 Speaker 2: Hell yeah, hell yeah, excited, Thank God, No no, And listen, folks, 1475 01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,680 Speaker 2: if you're at home, don't do cocaine. Just go to 1476 01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:02,000 Speaker 2: your nearest gas station and asked them for whatever pill 1477 01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:04,240 Speaker 2: has the most amphetamines in it. 1478 01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:07,120 Speaker 4: That or don't take it. 1479 01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:09,800 Speaker 2: There's one called addies like add are all, but it's 1480 01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:15,080 Speaker 2: just a ship lit a caffeine and B twelve. Oh yeah, 1481 01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:17,960 Speaker 2: the kind of ship that's legal to sell as energy 1482 01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:28,360 Speaker 2: pills is amazing. Creative is the best. Imagine if someone 1483 01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,760 Speaker 2: imagine if someone took OxyContin and then just made it 1484 01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,040 Speaker 2: so it couldn't easily kill you, and also it was 1485 01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:38,120 Speaker 2: sold unregulated in every gas station in the United States. 1486 01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:42,800 Speaker 2: That's creatim That's good stuff. Yeah, it's what I take 1487 01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:48,760 Speaker 2: it all the time. It's wonderful. Love it's it's a 1488 01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:51,720 Speaker 2: little bit caffeine, a little bit pain killery, but it 1489 01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:54,840 Speaker 2: won't shut down your lungs like it's not a central 1490 01:19:54,880 --> 01:20:01,880 Speaker 2: nervous system. Depress it. It won't kill you in the 1491 01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:05,160 Speaker 2: same way that opiates d It's great. 1492 01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:05,840 Speaker 3: I love it. 1493 01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:08,599 Speaker 2: Be careful with it, though, folks, it is a drug. 1494 01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:14,719 Speaker 6: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 1495 01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:18,360 Speaker 6: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia 1496 01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,760 Speaker 6: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 1497 01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:23,400 Speaker 6: Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 1498 01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:24,200 Speaker 1: You get your podcasts. 1499 01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,960 Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes 1500 01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:29,759 Speaker 4: every Wednesday and Friday. 1501 01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,840 Speaker 6: Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind 1502 01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:34,480 Speaker 6: the Bastards