Speaker 1: This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
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Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
Speaker 1: professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
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Speaker 1: episode discusses abuse, trauma, and sexual assault, including specific description
Speaker 1: of an assault, which may be triggering to some people.
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Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. How am I allowing myself
Speaker 1: to jump into these relationships without clearly looking at who
Speaker 1: the person is? But they're con man, They're charming there,
Speaker 1: you know, And and I guess also, when your love
Speaker 1: bombed that dopamine level, that Sarahtonin level, you have a
Speaker 1: high and you're all excited about it and it feels good.
Speaker 1: And I'm such a person from the heart. The story
Speaker 1: of Dirty John maybe the template for a narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1: Deborah Newell's relationship and brief marriage with John Mihan was
Speaker 1: chronicled in a series and podcast from the Los Angeles Times,
Speaker 1: and a dramatize series on Bravo and then Netflix. In
Speaker 1: Deborah Story, we will hear it all, love bombing, red flags, control,
Speaker 1: gas lighting, manipulation, and the ways that trauma and backstories
Speaker 1: can shape our expectations and our discernment. For years, Deborah
Speaker 1: wasn't permitted to tell her side of the story. Instead,
Speaker 1: her story was told as a con man who goes
Speaker 1: after a naive woman. The truth is quite different. This
Speaker 1: is Deborah Story, the story of the survivor, and instead
Speaker 1: of once again focusing on the fascination with the con
Speaker 1: this is meant to be an exploration of the inner
Speaker 1: experience of a survivor. It's a story about systems that
Speaker 1: aren't designed to protect people from narcissists and predators. Finally,
Speaker 1: after years of making the story about Dirty John, the
Speaker 1: world gets to hear the story of Deborah. Welcome Deborah.
Speaker 1: It's so nice to finally see you live again. It's
Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. Deborah.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, the story of Dirty John, once we
Speaker 1: really take it, it's actually it's really the story of
Speaker 1: Debora Knewell. Yes, and perhaps maybe that's the shift that
Speaker 1: has to start right way. We've made it so much
Speaker 1: about him on this podcast, it's going to be the
Speaker 1: story of you. We have to start putting the focus
Speaker 1: on the survivors. Yes, I so agree. Unfortunately, though, to
Speaker 1: tell the story of you, we've got to give some
Speaker 1: backstory here, So I'd like to go back. Your story
Speaker 1: is such an interesting one because so many people have
Speaker 1: heard about your relationship. In many ways, it's almost become
Speaker 1: like a terminology for anyone who's in a toxic agtion
Speaker 1: or you met a guy sounds like a dirty John.
Speaker 1: It's literally become that. Your relationship with John I think
Speaker 1: I can honestly say maybe one of the most dissected
Speaker 1: relationships and history at this point. I agree. But as
Speaker 1: I said, we're not hearing the survivor's story, and so
Speaker 1: that's why you're here, because I want everyone to hear
Speaker 1: from you the story of you, you as a survivor.
Speaker 1: Thank you. So let's start even before your relationship. What
Speaker 1: was your past experience in relationships prior to eating job.
Speaker 1: You know, it's so interesting. I was a pleaser my
Speaker 1: whole life. I was always trying to make people happy
Speaker 1: or trying to help them and so I think, I
Speaker 1: literally that's who I am, and that was my role
Speaker 1: was to help people or just to be happy and
Speaker 1: make people, you know, feel good about themselves. And so
Speaker 1: I think it goes all the way back to the
Speaker 1: to that point in my life. But I was also
Speaker 1: raised by a mom, incredible mom, but being raised in
Speaker 1: a very traditional family with dad being the the one
Speaker 1: that really worked, you know, a lot, and a very
Speaker 1: religious home. My mom taught us to be submissive to
Speaker 1: men and to make them happy, make them a priority,
Speaker 1: and you know, that's her generation, that's where she comes from.
Speaker 1: And luckily my dad was a great guy, and that's
Speaker 1: I saw around me were great men. So I thought
Speaker 1: all men are great. So as I get into my
Speaker 1: first relationship, I get married at yeah, really young, and
Speaker 1: I thought, that's what you're supposed to do, date and
Speaker 1: then get married and live happily. Ever after. Little did
Speaker 1: I know when he yelled at me a few times,
Speaker 1: I thought, what are you doing? Because my parents had
Speaker 1: never had an argument in front of me, And I said,
Speaker 1: what are you doing? Why are you yelling at me?
Speaker 1: And he said, what do you mean? So what I
Speaker 1: realized at that point is I had no idea about
Speaker 1: men because I had been raised by this almost perfect man,
Speaker 1: as close to perfect as you can get. He idolized
Speaker 1: my mom, he had her on a pedestal. They had
Speaker 1: this loving relationship. He adored his kids. We had eighteen
Speaker 1: foster kids live with us, So my kids were all
Speaker 1: about love and kindness some and being the best that
Speaker 1: you can be. So you go out into the world
Speaker 1: and you have no idea what's out there. This has
Speaker 1: come up with some other folks we've talked with on
Speaker 1: this podcast, and here you are once again bringing up
Speaker 1: this theme. We want to believe that people who end
Speaker 1: up in ultimately as abusive a relationship as you did.
Speaker 1: You know that that's told in the Dorney John story,
Speaker 1: but even before that, some of the other relationships you
Speaker 1: had been in the easy story is she had a
Speaker 1: she's she has daddy issues. Right, If you had daddy
Speaker 1: issues married a really sweet guy, right, right, So that
Speaker 1: idea that it would be so protective if you had
Speaker 1: this sort of really you know, loving father actually in
Speaker 1: a way and this is again I've seen this over
Speaker 1: and over. It almost leaves you making an assumption that
Speaker 1: isn't true, which is, well, all men must be nice,
Speaker 1: and it's an interesting kind of a sort of a setup.
Speaker 1: And then those true to sational roles can be a
Speaker 1: little bit tricky because then you again, you're you're really
Speaker 1: quite powerhouse businesswoman and an entrepreneur yourself. Now, so even
Speaker 1: that takes you off of that track. What I think
Speaker 1: is so important to this a story like yours is
Speaker 1: that it already defies that first stereotype. So she must
Speaker 1: have had a terrible dad, and so she was just
Speaker 1: trying to recreate that not at all. So I'm going
Speaker 1: to take us a little out of order here just
Speaker 1: because you brought it up. And while some people may
Speaker 1: know this, not all may and you just said it.
Speaker 1: I know this that your sister was murdered. Yes, do
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable sharing about that? Of course? Can you
Speaker 1: tell us what happened, because that's an incredibly traumatic thing
Speaker 1: to have happened. Well, I had a beautiful sister and intelligent,
Speaker 1: I mean, she had it all, and she married her
Speaker 1: high school sweetheart. And during the years that she was married,
Speaker 1: because we came from such a great home, we didn't
Speaker 1: know there was abuse. I had no idea. We saw
Speaker 1: her unhappy at times, but we had no idea of
Speaker 1: the abuse. We did see some control issues. He didn't
Speaker 1: like her in a bathing suit, she had scrgeous figure.
Speaker 1: He didn't like her going to the gym with me.
Speaker 1: He would sit out front. So obviously there were red flags.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it, My parents are looking at it
Speaker 1: as oh, he loves her so much. So while this
Speaker 1: isn't deborah story, it's Deborah's family story, and a universal
Speaker 1: error made by so many when it comes to controlling
Speaker 1: and obsessive partners is conflating control and obsession with love.
Speaker 1: Telling a person what to wear sitting in a car
Speaker 1: outside a gym or anywhere. That's not love or even
Speaker 1: intense interest. It's control and almost inevitably ends up in
Speaker 1: isolation and abuse. So, despite how loving Deborah's family was,
Speaker 1: there is a Dane jury in families that see everything
Speaker 1: through the lenses of beneficence and trust and goodness, Because
Speaker 1: not only was this a dangerous set up for her sister,
Speaker 1: it was also a dangerous set up for her. We
Speaker 1: weren't looking that those are red flags. Anyway. She was married,
Speaker 1: I believe thirteen years a long time, and at one
Speaker 1: point she decided to leave. And when she left, she
Speaker 1: moved in with me and she was going to be
Speaker 1: my assistant. My design firm was taking off, and she said,
Speaker 1: I want to go pack up my house. They had
Speaker 1: been separated, I'm going to say a month somewhere around there,
Speaker 1: and she was dating someone famous, and so Billy was
Speaker 1: following them around, and little did we know he was
Speaker 1: pretty possessive and pretty upset about what was going on. Anyway,
Speaker 1: she went home to pack up the house. They had
Speaker 1: sold the home, let hers and go to his last
Speaker 1: day of school in the area. But Billy had told
Speaker 1: the eleven year old Chad to go to Grandma's house
Speaker 1: that day. He had also called me that morning and said,
Speaker 1: I've got this all under control. And I'm thinking to myself,
Speaker 1: why do you have under control? I don't get what's
Speaker 1: going on. Well, anyway, when she didn't come home to
Speaker 1: my house that day, I get a call from my
Speaker 1: mom and my mom said, honey, Cindy's dad. All I
Speaker 1: remember is falling to the floor. I remember I was
Speaker 1: peeling a carrot and I just dropped everything and I
Speaker 1: was crying, and I said, what in the world happened?
Speaker 1: And she said, Billy shot her and killed her. You know,
Speaker 1: we were supposed to forgive and move on. I shouldn't
Speaker 1: say that I didn't forgive. I just needed answers. I
Speaker 1: needed to understand what in the world had happened why,
Speaker 1: because it changed everything in our life. Those poor boys.
Speaker 1: She had a five and eleven year old, went to
Speaker 1: live with my mom and dad, and they were told
Speaker 1: to forgive and move on. And I couldn't accept that.
Speaker 1: I thought, everyone needs therapy, everyone needs to figure out
Speaker 1: what's going on here. This man needs to be put
Speaker 1: behind bars for years. Well he wasn't I know. He
Speaker 1: went to prison for three and a half years. Anyway,
Speaker 1: about ten years, I finally decide I'm going to look
Speaker 1: into this because it was a rippling effect on our family.
Speaker 1: You know, everything changed along with the boys were having issues,
Speaker 1: and nobody was willing to get them therapy. So I
Speaker 1: took in. At times, I took in both boys, but
Speaker 1: at this particular time, I took in the youngest boy
Speaker 1: and I wanted to put him in therapy, and everyone
Speaker 1: was so against it, and I thought, don't you get it.
Speaker 1: This is such a deep seated issue. It changed their life.
Speaker 1: I cannot think of anything more traumatic than to lose
Speaker 1: a parent who is killed by the other parents. So
Speaker 1: for ex period of time the father was incarcerated, they
Speaker 1: had neither of their parents and forever had to live
Speaker 1: with knowing father killed him. I personally can't think of
Speaker 1: them anything much more deeply profound in terms of loss
Speaker 1: for a child. It's unbelievable. It is a couple of
Speaker 1: things here. I am a believer Deborah, that almost without exception,
Speaker 1: there's no absolutes when it comes to human behavior. But
Speaker 1: I'm going pretty close to nine and I present on
Speaker 1: this one that almost all domestic abusers, whether that be
Speaker 1: emotional abuse, physical abuse, all domestic abusers are narcissistic. That
Speaker 1: complete utter lack of empathy, entitlement, need for dominance, power, control,
Speaker 1: that's narcissism. Okay, Billy, and I've had I've had the
Speaker 1: pleasure of reading your book, so I know some of
Speaker 1: this story too. I just I wanted our listeners to hear.
Speaker 1: This story is that Billy had been incredibly emotionally abusive
Speaker 1: to her the entire course of the relationship. The entire course,
Speaker 1: I believe. So the reason I'm bringing this up is
Speaker 1: that there's in your family already another story of narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1: Happening with an absolutely tragic consequence. Right, here's the part
Speaker 1: I'm getting stuck on because I and I've gotten stuck
Speaker 1: on this before, and I think it's almost like I
Speaker 1: just have to talk to you about it. Is the
Speaker 1: forgiveness peace. We're sitting here talking and I literally almost
Speaker 1: have a stomach ache when I'm thinking about this idea
Speaker 1: of forgiving. This is not my family, and I don't
Speaker 1: forgive this. How talk to me about forgiveness because this
Speaker 1: is such a sore any issue for survivors of narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1: I can't get my head around it. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of folks listening to this cancer. Can you help
Speaker 1: us understand this? I think when you're raised in a
Speaker 1: home that believes that forgiveness is no matter what, Wow,
Speaker 1: it's sort of brainwashed and that's what you're supposed to do.
Speaker 1: I didn't give him, obviously for a long time, and
Speaker 1: I was the one in the family. I don't think
Speaker 1: my brother did either. I felt like I had to
Speaker 1: move forward so that it didn't eat me up. But
Speaker 1: as far as how I felt about him, I couldn't
Speaker 1: be around him, and I chose not to go to
Speaker 1: birthday parties or or events that he was going to
Speaker 1: be at, because I do not believe that he should
Speaker 1: have been forgiven by my parents. And then the boys
Speaker 1: are so I don't know how to put it, but
Speaker 1: the boys are so mixed up? What to do? There's
Speaker 1: this love hate? Were the boys? I can see something
Speaker 1: quite different. This is their father developmentally, it impacted them
Speaker 1: in a different way. That's a different conversation, But I
Speaker 1: think I was struck in the story how quickly your
Speaker 1: mother forgave him, pretty much in the hospital within a
Speaker 1: day of him shooting your sister, killing your sister, Your
Speaker 1: mom was forgiving him. My mom is probably the sweetest
Speaker 1: woman you'll ever meet, and obvious it worked for her
Speaker 1: in many ways. It did not work for me. I
Speaker 1: also felt my dad got cancer a year later, and
Speaker 1: I really felt part of it was that he was
Speaker 1: in so much pain and had to be the good
Speaker 1: guy and the Christian man that it ate him up.
Speaker 1: I could not agree with you more. How do you
Speaker 1: think so growing up in a family where I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a level of forgiveness, I am not even
Speaker 1: accustomed to hearing a right like this leveled up forgiveness, right,
Speaker 1: no matter what, no matter what, is perpeture. There can
Speaker 1: be nothing worse than having your child killed. Of all
Speaker 1: the things you can listen out in the world, having
Speaker 1: your child killed. I think if we talked to people
Speaker 1: on the street would say absolutely not. Okay, you grew
Speaker 1: up like this. How do you think being raised and
Speaker 1: indoctrinated into this forgiveness no matter what? How do you
Speaker 1: think that if affected you in terms of how you
Speaker 1: went through relationships, how you saw a person's abusive or
Speaker 1: or bad behavior in a relationship, and even all the
Speaker 1: way up to your relationship with John. How do you
Speaker 1: think that culture forgiveness you grew up in may have
Speaker 1: actually harmed you in your own adult relationships? Oh, in
Speaker 1: so many ways you have no idea. Can you talk
Speaker 1: to us about that. Yes, a lot of the men
Speaker 1: that I've dated, I always gave them the benefit of
Speaker 1: the doubt. I always say, for most dangerous words in
Speaker 1: the English language, right, And they would do something wrong
Speaker 1: and I would forgive them. Yet I think as I,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot that goes into this. But you know,
Speaker 1: obviously I have a very strong belief in God, so
Speaker 1: it never changed my belief in God. It was just
Speaker 1: that I didn't believe the same way they did. I
Speaker 1: believe that forgiveness is a process and not everyone really
Speaker 1: deserves it. I know this is terrible to say, but
Speaker 1: I don't feel everyone deserves it, especially if they're not
Speaker 1: remorseful over it. Did Reilly have remorse? No, so you
Speaker 1: don't have none? Yeah. I have rarely seen someone shift
Speaker 1: and dodged through a remorseless homicide with such a light
Speaker 1: sentence and was forgiven to boot so he didn't have remorse.
Speaker 1: He only got a three year sentence. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: he got a seven year sentence, but he got out
Speaker 1: in three and a half years for good behavior, and
Speaker 1: he took the boys back, which I was so against.
Speaker 1: I figured a very unhealthy adult does not raise healthy children.
Speaker 1: It's a really important subtext of this story, though, because
Speaker 1: forgiveness is such a challenging space for survivors of narcissistic
Speaker 1: abuse of any kind, and a lot of folks struggle
Speaker 1: because they're like, how do I reconcile being a person
Speaker 1: who believes in God, who cares deeply about religion? You know,
Speaker 1: my it to has always been God can forgive, but
Speaker 1: you don't have to, you know, sort of outsource that
Speaker 1: job to God. That's not for you, and you you'll
Speaker 1: come to that when you do, and if you don't.
Speaker 1: If God forgives everyone, then God will forgive you too
Speaker 1: for not forgiving. So it's it's a very complicated space.
Speaker 1: But the challenge eyed I hear from you, though, is
Speaker 1: that you did have more than one toxic relationship as
Speaker 1: an adult. You forgave them, and in a way, it
Speaker 1: was almost permission for them to continue behaving badly because
Speaker 1: they must have known. While she's going to just keep
Speaker 1: forgiving me. Well, I don't share this in my book,
Speaker 1: but my first husband left me when I was pregnant
Speaker 1: and he's he's ended up being a great guy. Don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong. That's why I don't really talk about
Speaker 1: that much great relationship with my kids. We were young.
Speaker 1: You're married, Yeah, so we were extremely young, and he
Speaker 1: has had so much guilt over what he did, so
Speaker 1: he is actually a good guy. I know people say,
Speaker 1: how could it be a good guy. Well, he ended
Speaker 1: up being a pretty decent dad, and that's what I
Speaker 1: cared about. Person could be a decent dad and a
Speaker 1: good guy, but maybe not your person. But I just
Speaker 1: want people to keep in mind this this forgiveness theme
Speaker 1: is so important. So then there's another piece I want
Speaker 1: to ask you about, and this is something I did
Speaker 1: not know about you, and it really rounded out your story. Again,
Speaker 1: only talk about this if you feel comfortable, because it
Speaker 1: may not be an easy thing to talk about. I
Speaker 1: had no idea about you being a survivor of assault
Speaker 1: and stalking. It was an absolutely chilling story. Do you
Speaker 1: feel comfortable sharing that the story of that experience? You know,
Speaker 1: I'm such an open book. I feel if if my
Speaker 1: story helps someone, it's it's worth it. You were so
Speaker 1: young and I read that portion of your book and
Speaker 1: I was scared. I was reading at night, and it
Speaker 1: was almost like one of the things where I got
Speaker 1: up and was checking windows. It scared me that much.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine when you think of how young that is.
Speaker 1: You've had children, to have a daughter that age going
Speaker 1: to I it just it was absolutely chilling. So could
Speaker 1: you share that story because I think people need to
Speaker 1: understand your backstory if they're going to understand the story
Speaker 1: of your relationship with John. When I was I think
Speaker 1: eighteen years old, I was working hard and going to
Speaker 1: college and I came home one night and my window
Speaker 1: was open, and I thought, that's odd. I didn't leave
Speaker 1: my window open anyway. Pretty soon I realized somebody was
Speaker 1: stalking me. I would get the phone calls back then
Speaker 1: there weren't cell phones, and I would get the phone
Speaker 1: call at my home, your home, I see what you
Speaker 1: have on I saw you today. And then they would
Speaker 1: call and say, I saw what you wore last night
Speaker 1: to bed. And then they started taking underwear in different garments.
Speaker 1: They'd actually come into your home. They start Yes, I
Speaker 1: had a private investigator on the case. They could not
Speaker 1: catch him. He was at one point calling from a
Speaker 1: pay phone not too far away from where I lived,
Speaker 1: but they did not catch them. I was so paranoid
Speaker 1: to the point where I thought somebody was constantly following me. Girl,
Speaker 1: that's not paranoid, that's just being like, yeah, that's just
Speaker 1: a fact I was breaking your house, stealing undergarments and
Speaker 1: other items, knowing what you were wearing. Not paranoid, just
Speaker 1: smart wise. So I chose to move. And when I
Speaker 1: moved out, I moved in with my sister and her husband,
Speaker 1: and it was fall in about a month. Month and
Speaker 1: a half had gone by at this point, and I
Speaker 1: came home before anyone else, and I think it was
Speaker 1: five thirty and it was already dark out. And I
Speaker 1: walked into my room and a man grabs me, grabs
Speaker 1: me around my waist and puts a knife to my throat,
Speaker 1: and he said lay down, and I went to lay
Speaker 1: down on the bed. I wasn't fighting him, I was
Speaker 1: I figured it was my life if I didn't, So
Speaker 1: I went to lay down on the bed and right
Speaker 1: in and there the door opens and it's Billy. There's
Speaker 1: an irony of my goodness. Yeah, it speaks how complicated
Speaker 1: the stories in your life. Anyway, the guy ran off.
Speaker 1: We did not catch him, but it was he didn't
Speaker 1: rate me, but obviously I was in fear of my life.
Speaker 1: I actually, shortly after that moved back home and stayed
Speaker 1: with my parents for a short while, and then I
Speaker 1: met my first husband. I mean, such a traumatic experience
Speaker 1: to frame that. To have been stalked, have your home
Speaker 1: repeatedly broken into, deal with these phone calls, be assaulted,
Speaker 1: believe you were going to die, and just by happenstance
Speaker 1: right somebody walks into the room. How ironically would then
Speaker 1: go on to kill your sister. So even as you
Speaker 1: play that story back, this is where trauma is funny.
Speaker 1: It's not just that moment. In the years to come,
Speaker 1: you would think about that story. Billy came in saying
Speaker 1: that traumatic p it's just it's sort of it takes
Speaker 1: on its own story, and the brain takes it on too.
Speaker 1: And and did they ever catch the person? My goodness,
Speaker 1: So your life not only has had these experiences of trauma,
Speaker 1: but making that so much worse were these two massive
Speaker 1: miscarriages of justice. A person who assaults you doesn't get caught.
Speaker 1: The person who murders your sister gets a very short
Speaker 1: prison sentence. So those two seems as a foreshadowing to
Speaker 1: what was going to happen, while the part with you
Speaker 1: having a great dad and sort of a very loving
Speaker 1: family life is in market contrast now to what would
Speaker 1: slowly become your adult life. We will be right back
Speaker 1: with this conversation. So now let's leap forward, okay, because
Speaker 1: you then establish yourself. You got married, you had kids,
Speaker 1: you got divorced, but you do have kids. Were you
Speaker 1: married more than once? Yes? How many times? I hate
Speaker 1: to say this, but in all five because I kept
Speaker 1: making mistakes, jumping in thinking they're a great guy, thinking
Speaker 1: they're going to be a great dad to the kids,
Speaker 1: or just a good human being. And I'm going to
Speaker 1: have this fairy tale. So you believed in fairy tales?
Speaker 1: I did. How were you able to believe in fairy
Speaker 1: tales after all the really difficult things that happened in
Speaker 1: your life. I have no idea because that's what that's
Speaker 1: what is amazing to me. And by the way, don't
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you now, Debra, I'm gonna call you out.
Speaker 1: Don't shame yourself from being married five times. You've been
Speaker 1: married five times. Don't hate to say it. It's your history,
Speaker 1: it's your life. Well, I mean, wouldn't it be great
Speaker 1: to meet the right man and be married the rest
Speaker 1: of your life? But you know what, life happens. Life happens.
Speaker 1: And I actually think that the more compelling mayor five times,
Speaker 1: five times, whatever, the thing that jumps out to me
Speaker 1: that you still believe in fairy tales, I do obviously.
Speaker 1: Now it's scared. I'm very let's put it this way.
Speaker 1: I see red flags right away. Sure, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I think that what we need to do is like
Speaker 1: maybe start putting the fairy tale person into a very
Speaker 1: red dress. Sony four Alas that having a red lapel,
Speaker 1: because yet despite all that happens, you you were married
Speaker 1: five times. It's a tough one. We're raised on being
Speaker 1: swept off our feet. Can you imagine a Disney princess
Speaker 1: sitting down and making a pro and con list. Wasn't
Speaker 1: that right? It was a lot of being swept away,
Speaker 1: not a lot of logic. And so we we're socialized,
Speaker 1: you know, to to either be sweepers or to be
Speaker 1: swept off our feet, one or the other. Now we
Speaker 1: fast forward into John. Okay, so people would say, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna one of the things that that
Speaker 1: studying all the material, reading your book, watching, listening, reading
Speaker 1: all of that, is that, well, how come she didn't
Speaker 1: figure it out? Right? They're like cards, been married more times?
Speaker 1: Why didn't she figured out? That's the criticism that is Okay,
Speaker 1: So I don't love the criticism. I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you because I really do feel it's saying, let's blame
Speaker 1: her because that there's abusive people in the world, right,
Speaker 1: because I really do believe that you to say why
Speaker 1: didn't you pick better? Is still moving the lens onto
Speaker 1: you rather than that, why are these people abusing people?
Speaker 1: But let's play to the critics for a minute. Okay,
Speaker 1: what do you think was happening that, especially those three relationships,
Speaker 1: and then obviously it culminated in the biggest con of all.
Speaker 1: What was happening for you that that you were repeatedly
Speaker 1: seeing this and where people are saying, how did you
Speaker 1: make this? How did you pick this guy after going
Speaker 1: through these other relationships? You know, I've analyzed it to death.
Speaker 1: What I see is I was raised by this great dad,
Speaker 1: and I wanted that. I wanted love. I wanted somebody
Speaker 1: just think I'm wonderful. I wanted someone to love my kids,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to be married the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: And I think that I didn't see red flags because
Speaker 1: I was not raised to even look at that, and yes,
Speaker 1: to keep going through it over and over again. I
Speaker 1: think I had hope, you know, I had this this
Speaker 1: hope that there really is a great guy out there
Speaker 1: and that I was finally meeting them. I wasn't looking
Speaker 1: at red flags. I honestly didn't even know red flags. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and not to me that should be taught. I think
Speaker 1: it was way alongside multiplication tables that you know that
Speaker 1: people are not taught red flags or often are. I mean,
Speaker 1: you were raising a very traditional home, so it may
Speaker 1: very well have been. Well, you just need to submit
Speaker 1: to the will of this person. Yes, So how are
Speaker 1: you going to see red flags? You're too focused on
Speaker 1: submitting and putting your head down. How could you look
Speaker 1: up and see those red flags? But the not seeing
Speaker 1: the red flags and wanting to believe? You know, hope
Speaker 1: is a four letter word when it comes to our
Speaker 1: assistic relationships, that's for sure, because it's the hope and
Speaker 1: I want this to be the thing I want. I
Speaker 1: wanted to be a big love story, and so you
Speaker 1: might even force those pieces to fit. Well, they did
Speaker 1: two nice things. Well ignore the hundred bad things they did.
Speaker 1: They did two nice things. What was your mindset at
Speaker 1: the time you met John. You've gone through three very
Speaker 1: difficult relationships, You've had a history of trauma, and you're eighteen.
Speaker 1: And while that was a while ago, it definitely shapes
Speaker 1: the life you had the the cataclysmic loss of your sister.
Speaker 1: You had a loving family, but some really complicated messaging
Speaker 1: around forgiveness. You have four kids. All of that together,
Speaker 1: it's a very complex too. How did you get to
Speaker 1: the place where you met John, and what was it
Speaker 1: like in the beginning. So one of the reasons I
Speaker 1: dated John had to do with my kids were raised.
Speaker 1: They were all off on their own, and I was
Speaker 1: going home to an empty house. I would work all day.
Speaker 1: I had great success in my business to where you think,
Speaker 1: why can't you have success in love? And I remember
Speaker 1: going home one day and my daughter Jacqueline said she'd
Speaker 1: come over that night, and she goes, oh, you're alone again.
Speaker 1: I go, yeah, it's okay, let's sign you up. So
Speaker 1: her friend, her best friend, bern Abby, and Jacqueline wrote
Speaker 1: a profile and I thought, oh, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I want to do this. I've gotten pretty content in
Speaker 1: some ways. I don't like coming home alone, but you know,
Speaker 1: I've got a full life. And they said, well, let's
Speaker 1: just try it out. So they signed me up for
Speaker 1: a dating website. We went through the profiles and I
Speaker 1: think I narrowed it down to five. First guy, no chemistry,
Speaker 1: Second guy, something's happened, Third guy, no chemistry, fourth guy
Speaker 1: nice guy again no chemistry. So I thought, okay, this
Speaker 1: isn't for me. Chemistry is actually a very challenging and
Speaker 1: even dangerous word when it comes to relationships, even though
Speaker 1: everyone has been taught to look for it. Chemistry is
Speaker 1: this sort of unnamed, indescribable thing. Unlike things that are
Speaker 1: clear and necessary for a healthy relationship, things like kindness, respect, compassion, patience,
Speaker 1: chemistry is far less concrete, and that is why it
Speaker 1: is a problem. Because often chemistry reflects familiarity or a
Speaker 1: distorted internalized societal message around what constitutes strength or safety
Speaker 1: or connection or even a chance of working through a
Speaker 1: past unresolved conflict. But because chemistry is so ephemeral, so hazy,
Speaker 1: it can take people to tricky or dangerous places. And
Speaker 1: so I looked at my daughter. I said, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to do it well anyway. Right as I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go off this site up Pops John,
Speaker 1: and I thought, oh m, he's got two grown girls,
Speaker 1: he has a dog, he's in the medical field, he's
Speaker 1: nice looking, seems intelligent. Everything he was saying in his profile,
Speaker 1: I checked off my boxes went to church. Anyway. I
Speaker 1: looked at and I thought, oh, this isn't so bad.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll try one more time. So I contemplated whether
Speaker 1: I was going to do it or not, and I thought,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try what what the heck? So we're talking,
Speaker 1: you know, we're texting back and forth, and he finally says, hey,
Speaker 1: can I have your number? And I'm thinking, okay, is
Speaker 1: in the medical field. I'm so far. Everything that I'm
Speaker 1: hearing from him sounds good. He's asking questions. It's not
Speaker 1: all about him. It's a two way conversation, shan. So
Speaker 1: I think, okay. So I give him my number and
Speaker 1: he calls. When he was talking, there was some arrogance,
Speaker 1: but I thought, uh, you know, good looking professional. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll ignore it. Okay, did you know arrogance was a
Speaker 1: red flag? No? I did not at the time. Everyone
Speaker 1: arrogance is a red flag. It really is. You know,
Speaker 1: I think this whole idea of cocky is a good thing. No,
Speaker 1: I'm I really want to make cocky not texy anymore
Speaker 1: because it's just not and and I really arrogance is
Speaker 1: a red flag and it should and people say, but
Speaker 1: they have the goods, they have the goods, and they
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to talk about him. Right. The other thing
Speaker 1: that I didn't know was a red flag was charming. Oh, big,
Speaker 1: red flag. Charming is a red flag. Everyone, So you're
Speaker 1: just stacking him up here, right, Okay, Charming and arrogant
Speaker 1: actually is like four stars get out like that, you know,
Speaker 1: I mutin, we're five star run right. So you've got charming,
Speaker 1: you've got arrogant. Where arrogance didn't register as a red flag,
Speaker 1: there were other things about him that were attractive. So
Speaker 1: you meet. Yes, So where I lived at this point
Speaker 1: was in a penthouse, and I've had Jacqueline there so
Speaker 1: that she could meet him, and so I wasn't alone.
Speaker 1: So anyway, he comes up and I'm not quite ready,
Speaker 1: he's a little early. She lets him in. There are
Speaker 1: things that he said to her. Keep in mind, my
Speaker 1: daughter didn't like anyone. I mean, I hate to say this,
Speaker 1: never giving your track record. Yes, I'm kind of thinking
Speaker 1: she might be really good at this red flag She's
Speaker 1: become really good at because of me. So anyway, what
Speaker 1: ends up happening is he's there. He's in a button
Speaker 1: down shirt with shorts and tennis shoes. He looked like
Speaker 1: a college boy to me, like crappy college they portray
Speaker 1: him in the series is very sloppy. He wasn't sloppy,
Speaker 1: but he did have a dress shirt with the shorts on.
Speaker 1: And I said well, let's go over to the restaurant.
Speaker 1: The conversation went so well that I said, you want
Speaker 1: to come up for a nightcap and he said sure.
Speaker 1: And he's polite, he's not trying to hold my hand.
Speaker 1: And and one of the dates prior to that, the
Speaker 1: guy had to sit on the same side as me,
Speaker 1: touch me. You know, I'm like, get away from me.
Speaker 1: So I thought, okay, you know, he seems safe, he
Speaker 1: seems honest, he seems real arrogant, charming. But so I
Speaker 1: invite him up. I go into the restroom and I
Speaker 1: remember putting my lipstick on and walking out and glancing
Speaker 1: over to my bedroom and thinking, oh, he's on my bed. Hello. Okay,
Speaker 1: now we just got the like we get ping ping, ping, ping,
Speaker 1: ping ping, lots of red flags like holy presumptuous. And
Speaker 1: I looked at him and we had great conversation. We
Speaker 1: had had the best time. He had one drink, you know,
Speaker 1: he didn't go overboard. And I'm thinking to myself, he
Speaker 1: looked like a pretty good guy. So I said, oh, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: get off my bed, and he goes, what do you mean.
Speaker 1: I go, no, we're gonna We're going into the living room.
Speaker 1: We're not we're not staying. That's not who I am.
Speaker 1: And he looks at me and he said, but it
Speaker 1: feels so good. I'm thinking to myself, what do you
Speaker 1: mean it feels good? It's it's a bad He ends
Speaker 1: up sort of giving me a hard time and getting
Speaker 1: up abruptly walking out and saying, fine, I'm out of here.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking it was such a great date. And
Speaker 1: then this happens. And so next day I go to work.
Speaker 1: I look at my oldest daughter who I worked with,
Speaker 1: and I said, I had a really good date until
Speaker 1: the end. I said, I'll never see him again. She said,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, mom, you have the worst luck. You
Speaker 1: have the worst picker. I said, I know, don't I
Speaker 1: I have the worst picker. So what happened was he
Speaker 1: ended up calling that day and apologizing, and he said,
Speaker 1: you know what, I was enjoying every moment. He said,
Speaker 1: I just didn't want the night to end. Will you
Speaker 1: please forgive me. I'll never do that again. I will
Speaker 1: treat you with so much respect. Did he apologize for
Speaker 1: what he did? He did. He said, I am sorry
Speaker 1: for lying on your bed, and yes, okay, yes, he
Speaker 1: was very aware of what he had done, and the
Speaker 1: forgiving person that I am, and because we had had
Speaker 1: such a great date before that, I said, Okay, so
Speaker 1: I felt I had had a boundary, and when he
Speaker 1: crossed over it, I forgave him. I should have at
Speaker 1: that point realized who this man was. It's so easy
Speaker 1: for me to be sitting here in the studio with
Speaker 1: you and giving an analysis. I wasn't in the apartment.
Speaker 1: I haven't had your life history. But I think what
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand is that sort of
Speaker 1: boundary testing run an early date and I go up
Speaker 1: to your apartment, who you graciously invited him up, and
Speaker 1: he goes and lies on your bed. He tests that boundary,
Speaker 1: which is its own form of grooming process. How far
Speaker 1: can I get with her? Will she comes sit on
Speaker 1: the bed with me? Will she let me kiss her?
Speaker 1: You set a boundary, something you were proud of and
Speaker 1: should have been proud of. Right anyone who can set boundaries,
Speaker 1: especially when you've had tough histories, and it's really important
Speaker 1: you did not know though you were in something bigger
Speaker 1: than that, because now what he was finding out, Okay
Speaker 1: tested it, calling back apologizing. She's accepting the apology ding
Speaker 1: ding ding, we have a winner. And now he knew
Speaker 1: as part of this grooming process, because the grooming process
Speaker 1: is really sort of testing those waters, figuring out who's vulnerable,
Speaker 1: seeing how far you can push. And he now recognized like, oh,
Speaker 1: I can test and I can apologize, and she's going
Speaker 1: to give me a chance. What was interesting to me
Speaker 1: those you did say he got angry, like you rebuffed
Speaker 1: his advances. Initially you said no, this bad thing is
Speaker 1: not working for me by and so he didn't get
Speaker 1: his way. But then as narcissistic people don't like it
Speaker 1: when they don't get their way. But then he quickly
Speaker 1: sort of reorganized himself, played the game of apologize, let's
Speaker 1: see if this is going to work. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's almost like a really hard question on a test,
Speaker 1: sever that a teacher would put on the test knowing
Speaker 1: that maybe only one or two students would get it right.
Speaker 1: That was sort of the hard question on the test.
Speaker 1: A lot of people say, this person genuinely apologized, they
Speaker 1: took ownership. Now more and more, I think as people
Speaker 1: get this, they're like, no, I'm not doing that. But
Speaker 1: to you, especially given what you came from, that what
Speaker 1: felt like a sincere apology to you was enough for
Speaker 1: you to say, Okay, I'll give it another show. I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll forgive him. He blew it and we'll move on.
Speaker 1: M So then the relationships unfolding. Okay, did you did
Speaker 1: your kids like him? My son is the sweetest guy
Speaker 1: and he just wants mom happy. And he says, well, Mom,
Speaker 1: if if you like him and he's good to you,
Speaker 1: that's what counts. My oldest daughter, she's just too sharp
Speaker 1: and she's mom. He doesn't look me in the eyes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sharp girl, and he's hiding something. I don't know. There's
Speaker 1: something about him. I don't like my Jacqueline, who has
Speaker 1: this sixth sense. She looked at me and she can't
Speaker 1: stand him. So to your kids didn't like him, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Tara didn't know him yet. She didn't meet him until
Speaker 1: he was moving in. Well, I take that back. I
Speaker 1: was moving in, but I had fallen hard for him
Speaker 1: at this point. What did you fall for? Well, he
Speaker 1: left on me. I mean, I have to tell you,
Speaker 1: I didn't know what that meant obviously until after the fact.
Speaker 1: But what he did was he would go get me
Speaker 1: coffee every morning, bring it back, have a rose. That
Speaker 1: he picked along the way. He would service my cars
Speaker 1: washom gass m. He would run errands, he would I mean,
Speaker 1: he did so many things for me the days that
Speaker 1: he wasn't working, and so I would think to myself, Wow,
Speaker 1: what a great guy. And I think one of my
Speaker 1: love languages is acts of service and affection, and he
Speaker 1: was extremely affectionate with me. He would hold my hand,
Speaker 1: he would rub my back a lot, he would take
Speaker 1: my hair all the time and twist it, and just
Speaker 1: things that make you feel. When we would fall asleep
Speaker 1: at night, he would always have to be touching me.
Speaker 1: So it was things like that that I thought, Wow,
Speaker 1: this is fantastic what you're describing. A lot of board
Speaker 1: they're waiting for you to say. He whisked me off
Speaker 1: to dinner and of the city hours away, and we
Speaker 1: stayed in a fancy hotel and he bought me jewelry.
Speaker 1: He basically saying, got your car washed, And I'm so
Speaker 1: glad you you presented it that way, because that kind
Speaker 1: of caregiving, because that's what it feels like, somebody's finding
Speaker 1: these small details in my life and taking care of them.
Speaker 1: I think it's so important for people to understand that
Speaker 1: love bombing doesn't always look like the big, grand romantic gesture.
Speaker 1: But sometimes it's just taking care of those things, from
Speaker 1: putting out the trash to getting the car washed, picking
Speaker 1: up some flowers on the side of the road. We
Speaker 1: take we feel taken care of, and that can actually
Speaker 1: leave I'm not being love bombed. All they're doing is
Speaker 1: they're driving me to the dentists. That's not love bombing.
Speaker 1: And I'll say, well, it depends on how important it
Speaker 1: is to you, because if it is, then it may
Speaker 1: very well be. Gifts were not my love language. And
Speaker 1: interestingly he probably figured that out about you and saw
Speaker 1: how you responded. Our session will continue after this break.
Speaker 1: You said what days he didn't and you made air
Speaker 1: quotes because people can't worked. What did he do when
Speaker 1: he air quote worked? Well, he told me he was
Speaker 1: an anenthusiologist. Okay. So he said he was a doctor, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: So he would have those scrubs on and go off
Speaker 1: to work, which is what a doctor would do, right.
Speaker 1: So I assumed he was going off to work because
Speaker 1: he'd come back to my house that evening or once
Speaker 1: he moved in, he would come home and share his
Speaker 1: day about who he put to sleep and what happened
Speaker 1: and so on. So he had stories. Because I'm an
Speaker 1: honest person, I assume he's being honest with me. I
Speaker 1: didn't think, oh, I've got a check and see where
Speaker 1: he's working today. And but I didn't see a paycheck, okay,
Speaker 1: nor did I ask for rent. I was doing well.
Speaker 1: I didn't care. I had rented the place that we
Speaker 1: were now in down on Babo Island, and he did
Speaker 1: take me to dinner, he did pay her for food,
Speaker 1: He paid for all the miners, and I should say so,
Speaker 1: I didn't question it. And when he said that he
Speaker 1: was putting his money he had a trust for his kids,
Speaker 1: I thought, that's wonderful. I'm really happy that you take
Speaker 1: such good care of your kids. And so I didn't
Speaker 1: really say anything for the first four months, and then well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back for a minute, went back
Speaker 1: to November. Mid November and Tara came to help me
Speaker 1: move in to yes And when Tara helped me, she
Speaker 1: had come out from Vegas with her boyfriend. She said,
Speaker 1: I don't like him, and I thought, really, I don't
Speaker 1: get it. She was I don't like him, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: how does she not like him? And I just kept thinking, Oh,
Speaker 1: you know what, he's so good to me. My kids
Speaker 1: are going to see this, and they're gonna like him.
Speaker 1: It's just gonna a matter of time. And what happened
Speaker 1: was we had gone and it was such a minor
Speaker 1: in my eyes at the time, but we had gone
Speaker 1: to dinner, and when we were getting out, I was driving,
Speaker 1: he was in the passenger seat. Tara was in the
Speaker 1: back seat with her boyfriend. And we got out, I
Speaker 1: started walking to the restaurant. I guess she was locked
Speaker 1: in the car for a couple of seconds. I figured
Speaker 1: the child lock was on because I had my grandkids
Speaker 1: at times, and so I thought nothing of it. But
Speaker 1: to her that was a really big deal that he
Speaker 1: wasn't I guess, paying attention and treating her like a
Speaker 1: guest and so on, so and it was just a
Speaker 1: matter of seconds, but that really bothered her. So anyway,
Speaker 1: ended up going into the restaurant. But I noticed with John,
Speaker 1: he wasn't I think, when you're dating someone, you really
Speaker 1: want to get to know that person's kids, you really
Speaker 1: and you want to be a little bit of beyond
Speaker 1: your best behavior. And I wasn't noticing him really going
Speaker 1: out of his way, and I thought, huh, these are
Speaker 1: my children. You know, I love my kids more than anything.
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit surprised by this. Anyway, got home,
Speaker 1: Tara went into my bedroom and saw that John had
Speaker 1: three pieces of clothing and his toothbrush and a few
Speaker 1: other toilet trees there, and she flipped out. Why did
Speaker 1: she flip out? Because she thought, how dare he be
Speaker 1: staying with me? Oh? She and it was this very
Speaker 1: it was early in the relationship. But she was bothered
Speaker 1: that he was staying with you regularly enough that he
Speaker 1: had some items. Why do you think that was? Why?
Speaker 1: Why do you think she was so bothered by that?
Speaker 1: Did she think it was moving too quickly? Possibly she
Speaker 1: didn't tell you though, why. She just simply said, this
Speaker 1: is bothering me that he has these things. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: she thought he was living there, and I said, it's
Speaker 1: a few things. I see, I see, I see. Okay,
Speaker 1: God its so she thought he might have actually literally
Speaker 1: been living there. And I said, there's a few things.
Speaker 1: But in the closet in the spare room where they
Speaker 1: were staying, he had all his diplomas, but I was
Speaker 1: getting them all reframed because some were broken Supposedly, John
Speaker 1: had told me he had been in Iraq. He had
Speaker 1: been over there working for Doctor Without Borders about a year,
Speaker 1: and so his stuff had gotten ruined in his storage
Speaker 1: and so he wanted me to fix his diplomas. So
Speaker 1: those were in a few boxes in my closet. So
Speaker 1: she was under the impression that he was moving in that.
Speaker 1: You can understand why she had that esspion. Was he
Speaker 1: I mean and all like not to mine? Not at
Speaker 1: that point, so he was not moving in at that point.
Speaker 1: Were any of those diplomas diplomas from medical school? Yes, many,
Speaker 1: so they actually said doctor of medicine, la la la
Speaker 1: la la medical school, the whole nine yards. Yes. So
Speaker 1: in retrospect, it looks he was trying to almost bolster
Speaker 1: his like saying, look, these are my because there was
Speaker 1: no unintentional moves with a con man, right, every everything
Speaker 1: is calculated. So how many months? So now you've got
Speaker 1: three kids who doesn't don't like this guy? All right,
Speaker 1: so I guess you do. You're so it's killing me
Speaker 1: because I want nothing more than to have my kids
Speaker 1: happy and to fall in love and be with a
Speaker 1: great man. So I'm gonna ask you a difficult question
Speaker 1: because one of the things that stuck out to me
Speaker 1: in the story about your your fourth husband, was that
Speaker 1: he had put hands on your on your daughter. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: when three of your daughters are saying, we don't like
Speaker 1: this guy, was any of that coming back to you, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've got I need to just listen to my daughters
Speaker 1: because a man wants to put hands on my daughter,
Speaker 1: so I just I'm going to listen to them. Unfortunately, Now,
Speaker 1: why was that? Because I saw the good in him,
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking, Okay, of course they're not gonna like
Speaker 1: anyone I date because of what's happened in the past.
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking he's going to win him over within time.
Speaker 1: You're hoping he was gonna hoping. Yeah, I'm hoping. So
Speaker 1: you did a lot of justifying like it's gonna work out.
Speaker 1: I want this to work, okay. So from your first date,
Speaker 1: how many months until you moved in with each other? Too?
Speaker 1: That's quick? Two months is way too quick, you know,
Speaker 1: And I mean the reason I say that again, all
Speaker 1: these tiny little red flags, like it's like it was
Speaker 1: a red banner, a little red flags, but quick is
Speaker 1: a bit of a red flag. And two months is quick,
Speaker 1: and so you you move in. After two months, you
Speaker 1: get a new place, and your daughter had already expressed
Speaker 1: some of her concerns. Do you remember. I mean it's
Speaker 1: almost like it's like, do you remember your first kiss? Dr?
Speaker 1: Romney Rolls? And I'm like, do you remember your first
Speaker 1: red flag? You know, not he as romantic, but what
Speaker 1: was the first red flag that you saw that you,
Speaker 1: no matter how much hope you had for this relationship,
Speaker 1: you were like a little bit of a pit in
Speaker 1: the stomach, a little bit of like, oh no, well,
Speaker 1: obviously the first night that he was on the bed,
Speaker 1: I was extremely disappointed, and then after that it was
Speaker 1: more disappointment because of my kids, and it killed me.
Speaker 1: I thought I wanted nothing more again than my kids
Speaker 1: to be happy for me and that I finally found love.
Speaker 1: And so the red flag that really was like oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, what did I do would have been he
Speaker 1: was living there, and it was I think it was
Speaker 1: late February, so when he got cameras. It's on the
Speaker 1: front door, it's it's outside down the walkway where there's
Speaker 1: a mailbox, it's in our bedroom, it's towards the kitchen,
Speaker 1: so anyway, I'm starting to wonder what's going on, and
Speaker 1: I'm just miserable because my kids don't like him. I
Speaker 1: go to the mailbox and there's a letter from prison
Speaker 1: from some guy. I even have the envelope still, and
Speaker 1: I opened it because I'm like, what is going on?
Speaker 1: And I know you're not supposed to open someone else's mail,
Speaker 1: but at this point I didn't care, So I opened
Speaker 1: up this letter. And this letter says so glad that
Speaker 1: you were doing well, that you met the love of
Speaker 1: your life, you know, on and on and on, and
Speaker 1: it says I'll be getting out on you know, such
Speaker 1: a such date. And I'm thinking, what's going on? He
Speaker 1: runs up to me, and keep in mind, this man
Speaker 1: has never raised his voice, talked back, been stern with
Speaker 1: me in any way. He runs up, he grabs the
Speaker 1: letter out of my hand and he said, that's mine.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, how in the world does he know
Speaker 1: what's going on here? He's been watching me on a
Speaker 1: camera and I said, oh, what is this and he says,
Speaker 1: you've just committed a felony. You opened my mail. So
Speaker 1: he turns it around where I no longer am asking
Speaker 1: him the questions He's blaming me for opening his mail.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm sorry I opened your mail, but
Speaker 1: what is this? And he says, I give I'm I
Speaker 1: help people in prison. I give them things, I send
Speaker 1: them things. I become friends with many of the guys
Speaker 1: that I send packages to. So I'm thinking, oh, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and I'm thinking that it pretty much just
Speaker 1: said he was in jail. Okay, So the letter bit
Speaker 1: of the letter you read indicated that this was not
Speaker 1: a prison volunteer program, that this had happened because that
Speaker 1: he had been in prison, right, So obviously I have
Speaker 1: questions at this point, and I'm thinking to myself, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, what did I do? And I'm thinking what
Speaker 1: is wrong with me to where I have fallen for
Speaker 1: this man. So in this sequence here we witnessed so
Speaker 1: many elements of a narcissistic or toxic relationship. He sets
Speaker 1: up surveillance to monitor her. She reads a letter that
Speaker 1: is unsettling, and instead of talking with her about what
Speaker 1: it says, he makes it about her committing a felony
Speaker 1: and that she is a bad person for that, which
Speaker 1: really reflects blame shifting and gaslighting. Then, as the topper
Speaker 1: he shape shifts again into communal narcissism and makes it
Speaker 1: about this idea that he is a prison volunteer. In retrospect,
Speaker 1: we can see how silly and implausible all of what
Speaker 1: he is saying is. But while it is happening, survivors
Speaker 1: feel like their head is spinning from jumping between shock
Speaker 1: accusations and bizarre narratives. And so, anyway, I called my
Speaker 1: nephew because John hated my nephew and my net you
Speaker 1: hated him, and there have been a few incidentss that
Speaker 1: had taken place. And I said to Shad, I said, Shaut,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I've done. And he said, what
Speaker 1: if I told you that John was never in Iraq?
Speaker 1: Would you still love him? And I said, ah, yes.
Speaker 1: He says, what if I told you that he's not
Speaker 1: in the medical field? And so what do you mean?
Speaker 1: He goes, what if I told you he was in jail?
Speaker 1: And I'm like what. All of a sudden, I get
Speaker 1: this call from John. He said, you're a Fashion Island
Speaker 1: and I was I had walked over to Fashion Island,
Speaker 1: which is very close to us, and I'm thinking, how
Speaker 1: does he know this? And that night he was supposed
Speaker 1: to be going in for back surgery the next day.
Speaker 1: But John gets about obstruction. This is March fifth, I believe,
Speaker 1: and we've been in a fight and it's our first fight.
Speaker 1: And he's calling me names, calling me fat and things
Speaker 1: that you know are just uncalled for and sort of mean.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, what in the world is going on?
Speaker 1: He knows where I'm at, he knows some of my text,
Speaker 1: he's the letter, and I'm thinking, I did it again.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to me is you're saying things like I
Speaker 1: did it wrong again, I did it again. Your initial
Speaker 1: language is of self blame versus this is a bad guy. Well, no,
Speaker 1: I knew he was a bad guy, right, But but
Speaker 1: the more you go to self blame, the more likely
Speaker 1: you get into a cycle where you're going to get
Speaker 1: more stuck. So he's in the hospital, he's angry at you.
Speaker 1: Clearly he's talking you because he knows where you're at.
Speaker 1: So he's put some form of a tracker on phone
Speaker 1: or car or whatever it may be, of all the above,
Speaker 1: which now he's in the hospital. I've decided he went.
Speaker 1: He took himself to the hospital, and then I think
Speaker 1: I had forty three text messages get here right now,
Speaker 1: get here, get here, get to the hospital. I need you,
Speaker 1: I need you. And these went on, and I thought,
Speaker 1: I can't, I can't do it. I'm feeling guilt that
Speaker 1: I'm not there because I'm married to him. At the
Speaker 1: same time, I'm like in shock. I've just found out
Speaker 1: things that I had no idea. So I ended up
Speaker 1: going to the hospital the next day and he's completely
Speaker 1: out of it. I decided to take his phone, and
Speaker 1: I've watched him type in a password seven eight seven
Speaker 1: eight seven, so I knew that was his pass password,
Speaker 1: and I thought, I'm going to open his phone and
Speaker 1: look at it. As I'm opening up his phone and
Speaker 1: he's completely out of it. They have him, you know,
Speaker 1: drugged up. I'm looking girls. I'm looking at text messages
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I'm seeing old girlfriends.
Speaker 1: I'm seeing girls, him saying Babe, I can be there tomorrow.
Speaker 1: You know, things that I'm like, So I'm screenshotting them,
Speaker 1: is what I'm doing. And then I leave. I didn't
Speaker 1: stay went home. My kids come over and they say
Speaker 1: to me, Mom, we just caught everything back from a
Speaker 1: private and investigator. I literally I was in shock. I
Speaker 1: sat there and I thought, this is crazy. Um, what
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? I thought, He's got all the
Speaker 1: information on me. He has every password, he's even on
Speaker 1: bank accounts. He knows everything about me. He has cameras, trackers,
Speaker 1: even cameras at work. And I thought to myself and
Speaker 1: I married him. Thank you for listening to part one
Speaker 1: of my conversation with Debrah. Here are my takeaways from
Speaker 1: this conversation. The saying that he looks so good on
Speaker 1: paper maybe a red flag in and of itself. People
Speaker 1: who look good on paper may have secured certain societal benchmarks,
Speaker 1: a certain job, education, family life preferences, appearance, or even
Speaker 1: just someone you know you're friends or family may admire
Speaker 1: or approve of. But the problem is that once a
Speaker 1: person looks good on paper, there is a tendency and
Speaker 1: temptation to let down our guard and miss the red flags.
Speaker 1: A con or, a grifter knows what looks good on paper,
Speaker 1: so they will always be able to create a persona
Speaker 1: to draw in their next target next. In Deborah's case,
Speaker 1: her narcissistic relationship moved fast and they married quickly, which
Speaker 1: isn't unusual. However, some folks may say their relationship with
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person actually moved very slowly, for example, waiting
Speaker 1: years for a commitment. Perhaps the main takeaway is that
Speaker 1: the relationship always moves at the narcissistic person's pace, not yours,
Speaker 1: whether that is fat asked or slow, and if you
Speaker 1: question the pace, you may be gaslighted, or your commitment
Speaker 1: or your agenda doubted. Pacing matters in a healthy relationship,
Speaker 1: and feeling heard about that pacing matters as well. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: in any narcissistic relationship, they always set the speed next.
Speaker 1: I actually believe that traditional value systems like marriage and
Speaker 1: traditional family structures are important to consider when thinking about
Speaker 1: some of the dangers of narcissistic relationships. Expectations around traditional
Speaker 1: gender roles and the pressure to keep your feelings in
Speaker 1: your private business private make people more vulnerable to getting
Speaker 1: stuck in narcissistic relationships. So many people who end up
Speaker 1: in emotionally abusive narcissistic relationships will say, I don't get this.
Speaker 1: I grew up with a strong family, wrong morals, strong values.
Speaker 1: I knew what was right and what was wrong. Alas
Speaker 1: what can end up happening is a traditional value or
Speaker 1: moral system around something like living together can backfire because
Speaker 1: the morality may eclipse your focus on red flags and
Speaker 1: create a rush to get married. In Deborah's story, the
Speaker 1: messaging that living with someone was some sort of sin
Speaker 1: meant that relationships would move too fast. Commitments were made
Speaker 1: too fast without considering uncomfortable behavior that was happening. Traditional
Speaker 1: value systems do not make allowances for toxic people, red
Speaker 1: flags or our instincts that something isn't right. And then
Speaker 1: once a person finds themselves in that hasty marriage, these
Speaker 1: traditional value systems make it hard to get out because
Speaker 1: of stigmas against divorce or single parenthood. A big thank
Speaker 1: you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Fallon, Jethrow,
Speaker 1: Ellen Rakaton, and Dr Rominey de Vassela. And thank you
Speaker 1: to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria Della Rosa,
Speaker 1: and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our
Speaker 1: editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahe and Calvin Bailiff.